Even if one wants to make an argument about the special situation with Outfit members, it doesn't change the the fact that the CCC had it at around 70 members (probably slightly inflated) in the mid-late 1990s. In the early 2000s, the feds released a list of 47 (if I remember correctly) members to the local press. In 2007, the feds cited 28 members remaining. Two other FBI estimates cited 25 and 30 members, which gives credence to the 28 figure. This all shows a clear decline in the family's membership.

And even if one wants to include associates, the latest estimates put them a little over 100 - or a total manpower of around 150 if you add members and associates. Contrast that with the smallest NY family (probably the Colombos) that have around 100 members and 500 associates - or four times the manpower the Outfit has. And, as I said, they and the other NY families have kept their membership stable.

The Patriarca family has most of New England to themselves, and the Bruno/Scarfo family has Philadelphia and most of South Jersey but that doesn't mean their operations can compete with any of the NY families. The greater NY metro area is so big that it easily accommodates the 5 families, who actually benefit in this day and age by having joint interests and working together rather than being a lone smaller family out on an island like the Outfit.

The Outfit could have everything west of Chicago to itself. It wouldn't change the fact the family is being widdled down by attrition and is closer to the handful of other small families remaining outside NY than it is to any of the 5 families.

When was the last known induction ceremony in Chicago? People have speculated Sarno made some some guys but who knows how legit that info is.

I think the decavancate family has around 35 made guys. I
This family has so many different estimates you have guys like ed scapo saying 70 which is just bullshit but what do you expect from a clown like that

The last known ceremony in Chicago was in 1988 but there's probably been others since then.

I'm not sure a lot of you guys are getting your figures.

The latest official figures (total members) -

Genovese: approx 200

Gambino: approx 200

Lucchese: approx 100

Colombo: approx 100

Bonanno: approx 100

New Jersey: 40-50

New England: 40-50

Philadelphia: 40-50

Chicago: 25-30

This stuff is getting played out

You'd think so but people keep pulling numbers out of their asses rather than looking at the facts...or God forbid...do some actual research.

the truth is Chicago at its height only had 25-35 made guys.

im taking this from frattianos book "the last Mafioso", he said then [1980] that Chicago was never more than 25-30 made guys. they worked with jewish associates.

also in Russo's "the outfit" he says the same.

so true guys like ed scarpo are giving people the wrong idea. He talks so much bullshit he thinks he is the next capeci

No clue as to the providence doings but Giagrande is not made. He is Billy's right hand and as deadly as they come but if they were going to make him they would have back when they made Buffalino. They have their reasons......

Hasn't there already been 20 million other threads devoted to this very subject?

This; I dont think people really understand Chicago was like a criminal syndicate unto itself, they never really were into the "made guys" sicilian tradition stuff. I keep telling people the chicago syndicate basically predates the commision. Like, I dont know about Chicagos made guys, and crews, and territory and shit, and Im from Chicago, lol, but I will tell you guys this; I know a guy who is like a grand nephew of one of Capones top liutenants, and there are times, when I talk to him I wonder what the fuck the guy ISNT INTO. Hes got stores,whores,molly, loud, yayo, I dont think there is a hot club in the loop that doesnt have some kind of outfit connection in some way.This guy has shown me custom made TOMMY GUNS,AK47 PISTOLS, supposedly made by military- special forces type Cia-contracted gunsmiths,like the same guys who maKE SHIT FOR THEM. The guys has ties to street gangs on Vincennes and in the hunneds,his brother was Huge in Coke too. There isnt a strip club in illinois that doesnt treat the guy like God when he walks in. Again, I dont know about the viability of the Outfit today, but I think they are so integrated with the state to the point where they are kinda indistinguisable from legit companies. i WOULD COMPARE IT TO GAMBINO Family TRUCKING iNTEREST IN THE CURRENT DAY, OR THE Profaci heirs liquor business. I mean ive heard some goofy stuff reguarding Chicago, ive heard people say Chicago was as strong as one of the Three weaker New York Families, THIS IS stupid enough to defy comprehension...

An example of what I mean, a relative of DADDANOS, HIS SON ACTUALLY GOT A 99 MILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT FOR JANITORIAL SERVICES AT THE AIRPORT, WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH OF THIS TYPE OF STUFF STILL GOES ON...

Also guys, remember the Rizzutos had what 19 guys on record? Was that an accurate depiction of their power?

And finally, that Joaquin Garcia guy basically said that the feds are not always reliable when it comes to their info.. And for the love of god, WHAT EXACTLY IS THE FASCINATION WITH THE PHILLY FAMILY? LOL

I'd have to think its frustrating seeing these other guys get made when he's done work.

The Outfit controlled the entire city in every sense of the word, from the Governor on down, they made judges etc, this was up to the time of Pat Marcy death..Gotti as boss was bribing jurors in the late 80's in hopes of getting off, Chicago was handing the judge a envelope. .1 made member of the outfit has rolled, bosses have flipped in NY..

As Franzese has said, most guys don't even earn, they are there for muscle, so numbers don't mean much, it's quality over quantity. .

The question is, when does it stop being an Outfit operation, per se, and strictly a legit company run by descendants of Outfit guys long dead? Once the inner core of Outfit members is gone, and it's shrinking rapidly, there really is no Outfit anymore and the things you are talking about are irrelevant.



Vitale testified there were 18-20 guys in the Rizzuto organization who were made Bonanno members. Not the entire Rizzuto organization itself.



It's always amused me when people use this argument - using a fed to discredit the feds. Any way you slice it, they are going to have far better and more accurate info - including on membership and associates - than anyone on these forums. Period.



Numbers mean a hell of a lot. It's precisely why the families in places like New Orleans, St. Louis, Denver, and San Francisco are gone. They never had the numbers to withstand attrition. On the other hand, the NY families - which have the biggest recruiting pools by far - have kept their memberships stable over the past 20 years. The Outfit can have all the "quality" in the world. It hasn't stopped their membership size from shrinking by more than half over the last 15-20 years. And even if you include associates in the picture, the modern-day Outfit is about the size of the New England or Philadelphia families.

I guess if you think having 150+ heads that are 3/4 retarded lumbering around dragging knuckles not earning as a good thing, okay then LOL..

You do realize that's not a completely accurate portrayal, right?

But judging by your name and your few posts so far, it's pretty clear where you're coming from and what your bias is. Sorry to break it to you but there have already been numerous Chicago posters who have done their best to defend the rep of their home town crime family.

Not a completely accurate portrayal? says who lol? Numbers provide security from other families but they also supply you with weak members who will flip at the drop of a hat, seriously,how many high ranking members have flipped? At what point is "this thing of ours" no longer this thing of ours ?? You can't turn the damn TV on without half a dozen guys from NY talking about the good ol days lol..

We can agree to disagree,I'm not sure what you see or who you know, but my knowledge doesn't stem from a book or a Internet chart..So if you know guys on the streets in Chicago, then they aren't telling you the whole truth. .

So you have street access to outfit numbers. Made guys. They tell you how many crews they have? How many buttons? Directly huh.

Ok then pal. This is our first rodeo.

LOL street access to outfit numbers

Gene is deadly-end of story. What surprises me most is that I've never heard of him really wanting the button....maybe he's happy w Billy as things are-they've stood through a lot of shit.

Chicago poster # 487 claiming he somehow has the real info on the Outfit and feels he has to criticize the NY families in order to defend it. How many times have we been down this road before?

Come to think of it, he may not be new at all. Maybe we're dealing with the same 5 or 6 posters coming back again and again under different names.

I get my info from the best sources available to anyone on these forums - indictments, press releases, articles from credible writers, etc.

Of course, this is where all of us get most- if not all - of our info. Even the very few who do have street sources. But for every one of them (I could count maybe a half dozen in my nearly 9 years on these forums) there are legions of those who simply pretend to.

Anyway, you can gave whatever unrealistic and outdated view of the Outfit you want. Doesn't change the fact that the smallest and weakest NY family will be around long after the Outfit is gone.

Ahhh a reader of books lol...I'm just a simple guy whose family business have served chicken and pasta to somebodies and nobodies for 60 years..

I stumbled upon this place because of a photo of a dear family friend...I do find it amusing that people are so absorbed into that life, like you Ivy, I bet you know not one connected person, and probably live in some distant place like Utah or Idaho lol..

It's okay though, if reading indictments and books from respected writers is what you do and all you have, have at it kiddo..You like hearing your own voice and that is quite evident, but seriously you need a woman lol..
I can hear Frank now....New York New York....

Listen Chef Boyardee, serving pasta to whoever affords you no special knowledge. That's what so many "local guys" like yourself can't accept. Today, with so much info available online, your zip code doesn't make you special on these forums. Those of us who do our research and pay attention don't need you and can usually spot the BS artists rather quickly. And I have no bias for NY like you obviously do Chicago. I simply look at the facts. But you're apparently not familiar with those.

He's trolling you. There is a 99% chance he isn't even from Illinois.

Chef boyadee. Lol boom roasted. Michael Scott.

kid does this mean if i start selling chicken and pasta in Chicago i will find out whats going on in the Chicago outfit