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Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Alfa Romeo] #850580
07/09/15 07:42 PM
07/09/15 07:42 PM
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Alabama
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dixiemafia Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alfa Romeo
Originally Posted By: fergie
It stays, if it goes now, it'll gain a guaranteed rep in 100 years as basically a swastika, and that's totally wrong


I don't agree with what the Confederate flag may or may not stand for. I certainly don't respect it's original bearers, the Confederates....but we have free speech in this country.

That said...

The best way to deal with this issue is to enforce US flag code which is actually federal law.

US Flag Code states that NO other flag of any other government may be flown...by itself, or above the American Flag.

The only way to display a foreign flag (IE the flag of another government or power) is to fly it BENEATH Old Glory, or side by side. NEVER alone. That (flying a foreign flag alone)....is an act of war all by itself.

That said, I am fine with the Confederate flag as long as it is flown BENEATH Old GLory, or side by side, not by itself.

Now, if you love waving the Confederate Flag...but cannot see yourself waving Old Glory next to it, maybe it's because you don't believe in the values Old Glory has come to represent. And that is not only un-American, it actually marks you as an enemy of this country.


What did you have against those that served under the flag? What was so bad about a Southerner? Don't tell you think we are all inbred hicks....

As for your other comment I can agree. If a state wants to fly it then why not? But if it does fly there is no way it should be close to ol glory. That we can agree on.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850625
07/09/15 10:34 PM
07/09/15 10:34 PM
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The issue isn't being a modern-day Southerner, the issue was the Confederate States of America. The issue with CSA is that it was a country that separated from the USA for the express purpose of maintaining slavery and racial discrimination, and it attacked and declared war on the USA. Southern traits like friendliness and hospitality should be treasured, but the CSA should not. Like it or not, the battle flag was a CSA flag, and the battle flag was chosen by the Sons of the Confederacy to represent the CSA in the era of Jim Crow and lynching.

As for a state flying the flag, it makes no sense to fly the flag of a country that went to war against the USA. It's not un-American, it's anti-American.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850627
07/09/15 10:36 PM
07/09/15 10:36 PM
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^^^^^Spot on!

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Faithful1] #850631
07/09/15 10:50 PM
07/09/15 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: Faithful1
The issue isn't being a modern-day Southerner, the issue was the Confederate States of America. The issue with CSA is that it was a country that separated from the USA for the express purpose of maintaining slavery and racial discrimination, and it attacked and declared war on the USA. Southern traits like friendliness and hospitality should be treasured, but the CSA should not. Like it or not, the battle flag was a CSA flag, and the battle flag was chosen by the Sons of the Confederacy to represent the CSA in the era of Jim Crow and lynching.

As for a state flying the flag, it makes no sense to fly the flag of a country that went to war against the USA. It's not un-American, it's anti-American.


Faithful do you believe the meaning of the flag can mean something non racial or discriminatory to many modern day southerners? I believe it can. I think there many who see it only as a symbol of pride and not hate.

I understand it's divisive nature and what groups used it later on to keep Jim Crow alive and white supremacy by extension. It also has no place on government property, except for Civil War monuments.

But I think we need to maintain the right for people to fly it as they please, racist or not. After all the First Amendment supports the right to free speech no matter how potentially offensive

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850664
07/10/15 03:39 AM
07/10/15 03:39 AM
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Faithful we don't disagree much but we will here. The CSA didn't break away from the Union on slavery alone. Lincoln even said he didn't want to get rid of slavery. He even said black people were not on the same level as whites. At the time the war started, Northern states ALSO owned slaves. IIRC even Delaware fought against the 13th as well even after the war. So to say the Civil War was about slavery alone and was the main cause is total bullshit. Also the North invaded the South, the South did not attack the North. Beauregard was provoked into firing on Sumter, Davis and the CSA asked the US not to resupply Sumter and they did it anyways because they knew the CSA would fire upon them and they did. If the US pulled Anderson out of Sumter we might have two different countries today, but the North didn't want that.

So I look forward to seeing evidence that Jefferson Davis himself (for the idiot he was) declared we were breaking away the U.S. for slavery. This was the main reason I didn't want to get into this thread from the beginning, I knew I would see bullshit responses that hold no merit. I'm bowing out now, anyone that gets that Davis info are more than welcome to PM it to me.

Last edited by dixiemafia; 07/10/15 03:40 AM.
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850700
07/10/15 01:39 PM
07/10/15 01:39 PM
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Lincoln was not the great emancipator the history books made him out to be, he is a total myth.

he was more than willing to let the south keep their slaves if they would surrender.

he was deterimined to kill every man, woman, and child in the south to prove a point, the tenth amendment gives the states rights, that is why the north did not try Jefferson davis after the war.

the south was right in their legal argument, the states make the government, they entered the union voluntary, and the constitution gives them the right to secede from it.

the war was about states rights, and Abraham [the butcher] Lincoln was all a big myth.

I hope I live to see the day when history rethinks Lincoln.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850703
07/10/15 01:46 PM
07/10/15 01:46 PM
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Footreads Offline
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Did you know when they lowered the confederate flag. They were also going to remove the flag pole why is that? We're they afraid someone would put up another confederate flag?


only the unloved hate
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850704
07/10/15 01:47 PM
07/10/15 01:47 PM
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Let's take down the Lincoln memorial


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Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850705
07/10/15 01:48 PM
07/10/15 01:48 PM
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Get rid of the Declaration of Independence it was written by a slave owner.

What's next


only the unloved hate
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850711
07/10/15 01:59 PM
07/10/15 01:59 PM
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I am offended by saggy pants below the ass

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850713
07/10/15 02:08 PM
07/10/15 02:08 PM
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Talking about your plumber smile


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Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Footreads] #850717
07/10/15 02:33 PM
07/10/15 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Footreads
Let's take down the Lincoln memorial


lets take down all memorials, lets replace myths with facts.

lets rename the FBI building named after hoover.

and presidents dont' deserve millions of dollars spent on their presidential libraries, it's taxpayer money.

not their personal piggy bank.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: dixiemafia] #850719
07/10/15 02:54 PM
07/10/15 02:54 PM
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Alfa Romeo Offline
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Originally Posted By: dixiemafia
Originally Posted By: Alfa Romeo
Originally Posted By: fergie
It stays, if it goes now, it'll gain a guaranteed rep in 100 years as basically a swastika, and that's totally wrong


I don't agree with what the Confederate flag may or may not stand for. I certainly don't respect it's original bearers, the Confederates....but we have free speech in this country.

That said...

The best way to deal with this issue is to enforce US flag code which is actually federal law.

US Flag Code states that NO other flag of any other government may be flown...by itself, or above the American Flag.

The only way to display a foreign flag (IE the flag of another government or power) is to fly it BENEATH Old Glory, or side by side. NEVER alone. That (flying a foreign flag alone)....is an act of war all by itself.

That said, I am fine with the Confederate flag as long as it is flown BENEATH Old GLory, or side by side, not by itself.

Now, if you love waving the Confederate Flag...but cannot see yourself waving Old Glory next to it, maybe it's because you don't believe in the values Old Glory has come to represent. And that is not only un-American, it actually marks you as an enemy of this country.


What did you have against those that served under the flag? What was so bad about a Southerner? Don't tell you think we are all inbred hicks....

As for your other comment I can agree. If a state wants to fly it then why not? But if it does fly there is no way it should be close to ol glory. That we can agree on.


Don't misunderstand me. What I am saying is that if they fly the Confederate Flag, the only proper way to do it, as per US Flag Code law, is by flying it side by side or beneath....Old Glory. That's the only way. Any other way is an act of war.

As to your other question...I simply don't respect the values of the Confederates. They are not the same values as that of the Union. That's it.


"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Faithful1] #850720
07/10/15 02:56 PM
07/10/15 02:56 PM
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Alfa Romeo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Faithful1
The issue isn't being a modern-day Southerner, the issue was the Confederate States of America. The issue with CSA is that it was a country that separated from the USA for the express purpose of maintaining slavery and racial discrimination, and it attacked and declared war on the USA. Southern traits like friendliness and hospitality should be treasured, but the CSA should not. Like it or not, the battle flag was a CSA flag, and the battle flag was chosen by the Sons of the Confederacy to represent the CSA in the era of Jim Crow and lynching.

As for a state flying the flag, it makes no sense to fly the flag of a country that went to war against the USA. It's not un-American, it's anti-American.


You get it Faithful! I've never agreed with your more. It's really open and shut isn't it.


"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Alfa Romeo] #850721
07/10/15 03:01 PM
07/10/15 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alfa Romeo
Originally Posted By: dixiemafia
Originally Posted By: Alfa Romeo
Originally Posted By: fergie
It stays, if it goes now, it'll gain a guaranteed rep in 100 years as basically a swastika, and that's totally wrong


I don't agree with what the Confederate flag may or may not stand for. I certainly don't respect it's original bearers, the Confederates....but we have free speech in this country.

That said...

The best way to deal with this issue is to enforce US flag code which is actually federal law.

US Flag Code states that NO other flag of any other government may be flown...by itself, or above the American Flag.

The only way to display a foreign flag (IE the flag of another government or power) is to fly it BENEATH Old Glory, or side by side. NEVER alone. That (flying a foreign flag alone)....is an act of war all by itself.

That said, I am fine with the Confederate flag as long as it is flown BENEATH Old GLory, or side by side, not by itself.

Now, if you love waving the Confederate Flag...but cannot see yourself waving Old Glory next to it, maybe it's because you don't believe in the values Old Glory has come to represent. And that is not only un-American, it actually marks you as an enemy of this country.


What did you have against those that served under the flag? What was so bad about a Southerner? Don't tell you think we are all inbred hicks....

As for your other comment I can agree. If a state wants to fly it then why not? But if it does fly there is no way it should be close to ol glory. That we can agree on.


Don't misunderstand me. What I am saying is that if they fly the Confederate Flag, the only proper way to do it is by flying it side by side or beneath....Old Glory. That's the only way. Any other way is an act of war.

As to your other question...I simply don't respect the values of the Confederates. They are not the same values as that of the Union. That's it.


alpha.... the values of the south were the same as the founding fathers, the founding fathers were the same as the plantanion owners, white supremacy all the way.

that"s what was passed down to them. now, ask yourself were the founding fathers democratic while owning slaves.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Binnie_Coll] #850722
07/10/15 03:13 PM
07/10/15 03:13 PM
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Alfa Romeo Offline
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Yes, the value system was the same Binnie, but people change...and countries evolve. The North descended from the Mayflower just like the South did, but they evolved.

I would even go so far as to say that the South may have shared all but one value in common with the original 13 colonies (half located in the North East btw), and that was the South's willingness to break up the Union to make a point. One of the main values of the original founders was the importance of maintaining the Union.

Now we all here might disagree on what that point was, whether it was the right to hold onto their enslaved captives, or something else.


"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850778
07/10/15 07:33 PM
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alpha ok. the point I was tyring to make was that the first 15 presidents were by no means morally sound, but, rather deeply flawed.... and history should reflect that.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Binnie_Coll] #850797
07/10/15 08:17 PM
07/10/15 08:17 PM
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We agree on that too Binnie, but realistically...do we expect school text books to reflect true history? I don't. And to an extent it doesn't matter what is taught in schools, parents will often indoctrinate their children after their own style of thinking and worldview, regardless.



"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Binnie_Coll] #850801
07/10/15 08:47 PM
07/10/15 08:47 PM
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Binnie,

That was an interesting point that you've been making in this discussion. It makes the story complicated though, and generally Americans like issues to be simple. One side versus the other side. You bringing up plantation/slave owning presidents complicates the story. I'm glad that you and others are expressing your opinions about the flag.Opinions that otherwise wouldn't be heard because people are afraid of instantly being labeled.

I think we would all agree that for every Binnie,Dixie and Lalou..that there are others in the world who promote the flag and it's imagery exactly the way the klan and white supremacists do.

My take, speaking just for myself, is that the reemergence of the flag's use in the South coincided with the dawn of American civil rights movement....perhaps when people felt the natural order of things was being disturbed....and Negroes were forgetting their place.
From the end of reconstruction to the beginning of the civil rights movement...aka the jim crow era...Blacks were second class citizens in America and not even afforded the rights of citizens in the South.
When Blacks began to demand the rights of actual American citizens..the "order" was disturbed and I'm guessing that some Southerners began wanting to connect to the old ways. Confederate battle flag became a symbol of the old jim crow south. You can see the flag being held by people protesting AGAINST civil right demonstrators throughout the civil rights era.


The klan emerged during Reconstruction...when I'm assuming that some felt ,due to "northern interlopers"...Negroes were forgetting their place and the natural order of things was being disturbed.At the end of reconstruction...I'm guessing the klan died down as things went back to how they were.

The reemergence of the klan,in the 1920s or 30s. this time was as much a response to waves of non-Protestant immigration...as it was to gains being made by Black migrants to the North and West.Country was changing socially,culturally and Catholics,Jews, and Blacks were the "scapegoats"
There is still strong strain of hatred towards those 3 groups in many parts of the country.

I think to some..the flag represents a time when none of those groups had numbers or power. I think some of the open anti-Mexican sentiment expressed in this country is as much about them being Catholic and further changing the religious makeup of this country as it is about their impact on our resources.And of course, if you feel Blacks are naturally inferior....you hate the fact that your president is Barack Obama.

When that chapter of klan marches later this summer in SC and gives interviews, they will make the case for those calling for the removal of the flag from society. I want them to speak and expose this ugliness that some feel is in our nation's past.



Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: rockstar_man45] #850818
07/10/15 10:19 PM
07/10/15 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: rockstar_man45

Faithful do you believe the meaning of the flag can mean something non racial or discriminatory to many modern day southerners? I believe it can. I think there many who see it only as a symbol of pride and not hate.

I understand it's divisive nature and what groups used it later on to keep Jim Crow alive and white supremacy by extension. It also has no place on government property, except for Civil War monuments.

But I think we need to maintain the right for people to fly it as they please, racist or not. After all the First Amendment supports the right to free speech no matter how potentially offensive


Sure, I believe it is possible that someone can attach a non-racial meaning to the flag in question, but go along with me as we apply that same meaning to other things. It is possible that a person can consider a glass of milk a glass of apple juice, or that a Mercedes-Benz is chicken burrito, but if someone had those understandings we would generally correct them. Why? Because they don't correspond to reality.

The reality is that the Confederate battle flag was conceived by the CSA. The CSA stood for racism and slavery. Yes, it stood for state's rights too, but state's rights to do what? For the right of states to maintain slavery. But they also wanted to force Northern states to maintain slavery in the South, which isn't really state's rights in most people's minds. What do I mean? The South wanted the Northern states to follow the Fugitive Slave Act, which meant that those Northern states that didn't believe in slavery would have to cooperate with slave states by returning ex-slaves or runaway slaves at their own expense. The Fugitive Slave Act was a major contributor to the Civil War.

As for the First Amendment, I previously state that if a private individual wants to fly the Confederate battle flag or any other Confederate flag that person has a right to do so. But don't expect other people to agree with the CSA flag waiver that it's not a racist flag because it is. You can't separate the history from the flag. It was created as part of a racist slave country (the CSA), was held to represent all of the Confederacy by the Sons of the Confederacy in 1890, was used by the Klan to represent them and their beliefs, and was raised up in South Carolina by racist Democrat governor Ernest Hollings in 1962 (he later became a senator and is still alive at 93 years old -- strange that Media Matters and other groups haven't asked him for his opinion on this), later moved to a memorial in 2000 and taken down by Republican gov. Nikki Haley.

What about, you may ask, the Dukes and the General Lee? I don't believe they thought of the flag on their car as racist, but that's out of ignorance. Moreover, since that was PRIVATE ownership of the flag, I think it was ridiculous for the current owner of the General Lee to repaint it. Then again, let's say there was a cool-looking Volkswagon from the 1930s that had swastikas painted on it, and maybe to the original owner the swastikas meant peace in the same sense as in Hinduism. If the current owner repainted it out of sensitivity to people who lost loved ones under the Nazi regime, I would understand. Sometimes you have to not just think of yourself but consider how it makes others feel because of a real historical experiences. Historically speaking, black people in America didn't just suffer slavery, but Jim Crow in the South and other forms of discrimination all over the country, including lynching. It was still in my lifetime in some states black people and white people could not marry.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: dixiemafia] #850825
07/10/15 11:01 PM
07/10/15 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: dixiemafia
Faithful we don't disagree much but we will here. The CSA didn't break away from the Union on slavery alone. Lincoln even said he didn't want to get rid of slavery. He even said black people were not on the same level as whites. At the time the war started, Northern states ALSO owned slaves. IIRC even Delaware fought against the 13th as well even after the war. So to say the Civil War was about slavery alone and was the main cause is total bullshit. Also the North invaded the South, the South did not attack the North. Beauregard was provoked into firing on Sumter, Davis and the CSA asked the US not to resupply Sumter and they did it anyways because they knew the CSA would fire upon them and they did. If the US pulled Anderson out of Sumter we might have two different countries today, but the North didn't want that.

So I look forward to seeing evidence that Jefferson Davis himself (for the idiot he was) declared we were breaking away the U.S. for slavery. This was the main reason I didn't want to get into this thread from the beginning, I knew I would see bullshit responses that hold no merit. I'm bowing out now, anyone that gets that Davis info are more than welcome to PM it to me.


You're right that we agree on much but disagree on this. I think in the great scheme of things this is a topic of less importance than a lot of others.

Responding to some of what you wrote.

First, what Lincoln said and did is really irrelevant to the issue of the flag. Lincoln had nothing to do with any CSA flag. The point is really what the CSA was about.

Second, what Jefferson Davis said and did isn't all that relevant either since the CSA existed before he was elected as its president, just like the USA already existed before George Washington was president. The president doesn't form the country, the country elects the president.

Third, what is relevant is what the statement of secession for those states that formed the CSA said. The very first state to secede, and therefore most relevant since it was the leader in this movement (the movement to secede from the Union), was South Carolina. So the South Carolina Declaration of the Causes of Secession is posted here: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/libra...s-of-secession/

It is dated December 20, 1860. Lincoln had not yet even taken the oath of office!

Here are some key statements:

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of Slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

In other words, SC was pissed that the non-slave states didn't enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.

A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the Common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that Slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

SC was mad that the Northern states elected a Republican. The Republican Party was formed in 1854 as an anti-slavery party. The North elected Lincoln; he didn't get a single vote in the Southern states. Whatever Lincoln did or said after this isn't relevant because he had not yet sworn the oath of office! He took the office on March 4, 1861 -- this declaration was made on December 20, 1860. The issue was slavery.

Here is a key paragraph from the Declaration of Secession for Mississippi:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Again, the reason is that the central issue is slavery.

Don't take my word for it: click on this link and look up each declaration here: http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp

It may be true that there were some white slaves in Louisiana and maybe a few other places, but they were the exception, not the rule. Slavery in the South was almost always slavery of black African people and their descendants. They justified this by claiming that they were inferior, meaning less than human or subhuman. They were animals. Today we treat our animals better than how they were treated then. You could LEGALLY work a slave to death. You could LEGALLY rape a slave. You could LEGALLY beat a slave. You could legally kill a slave. This is what the states that seceded from the Union to form the CSA justified. This is what the Confederate flags represent.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850831
07/10/15 11:30 PM
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@Faithful, I disagree on one point.

The flag may represent slavery, hatred and discrimination, but there are a great many, perhaps more, people that believe it be purely a symbol of the south and the good things it has to offer. It's complex. It belongs in museums, it belongs in Civil War graves and sites, and a private citizen has a right to fly it if they choose. It is part of our history, we cannot erase that.

The removal of the flag from the South Carolina state house, which I agree with, does not change or solve any problems faced by the black community today, that still struggle with poverty, wedlock, crime and negative stereotyping that are only enforced when killing sprees like the one last weekend in Chicago occur.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: rockstar_man45] #850833
07/10/15 11:36 PM
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Faithful1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: rockstar_man45
@Faithful, I disagree on one point.

The flag may represent slavery, hatred and discrimination, but there are a great many, perhaps more, people that believe it be purely a symbol of the south and the good things it has to offer. It's complex. It belongs in museums, it belongs in Civil War graves and sites, and a private citizen has a right to fly it if they choose. It is part of our history, we cannot erase that.

The removal of the flag from the South Carolina state house, which I agree with, does not change or solve any problems faced by the black community today, that still struggle with poverty, wedlock, crime and negative stereotyping that are only enforced when killing sprees like the one last weekend in Chicago occur.


I don't disagree with anything you just wrote.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Faithful1] #850837
07/11/15 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Faithful1
Originally Posted By: rockstar_man45
@Faithful, I disagree on one point.

The flag may represent slavery, hatred and discrimination, but there are a great many, perhaps more, people that believe it be purely a symbol of the south and the good things it has to offer. It's complex. It belongs in museums, it belongs in Civil War graves and sites, and a private citizen has a right to fly it if they choose. It is part of our history, we cannot erase that.

The removal of the flag from the South Carolina state house, which I agree with, does not change or solve any problems faced by the black community today, that still struggle with poverty, wedlock, crime and negative stereotyping that are only enforced when killing sprees like the one last weekend in Chicago occur.


I don't disagree with anything you just wrote.



Glad then we are in agreement. But even if we weren't that would be alright. You're a smart guy Faithful and an excellent poster.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: rockstar_man45] #850886
07/11/15 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: rockstar_man45

The removal of the flag from the South Carolina state house, which I agree with, does not change or solve any problems faced by the black community today, that still struggle with poverty, wedlock, crime and negative stereotyping that are only enforced when killing sprees like the one last weekend in Chicago occur.


People would rather stroke themselves than deal with the actual problems and it is fueled by race profiteers (Al Sharpton being one example) and media (MSNBC, Rolling Stone Magazine). It is easier to continually bring up moot points than putting in the work to help future generations no fall into the same cycle of problems


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Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: thedudeabides87] #850891
07/11/15 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: thedudeabides87
Originally Posted By: rockstar_man45

The removal of the flag from the South Carolina state house, which I agree with, does not change or solve any problems faced by the black community today, that still struggle with poverty, wedlock, crime and negative stereotyping that are only enforced when killing sprees like the one last weekend in Chicago occur.


People would rather stroke themselves than deal with the actual problems and it is fueled by race profiteers (Al Sharpton being one example) and media (MSNBC, Rolling Stone Magazine). It is easier to continually bring up moot points than putting in the work to help future generations no fall into the same cycle of problems


Exactly dudeman. And whether or not you think it stems from the blacks themselves or white 'systematic oppression' they are still there and guys like Sharpton and Obama will always use smoke and mirrors to distract people from the real problems.

In my opinion, the issues black community face today don't stem from one source, but a multitude of factors that feed one another, creating a vicious cycle not easily broken. When people blame white racism, to me it means they don't have a good enough argument so they just use that commonly used statement as if it trumps anything you might say.

Last edited by rockstar_man45; 07/11/15 02:04 PM.
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: fergie] #850973
07/11/15 06:06 PM
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What kind of flag can we remove to stop the slaughter in chicago? I'm confused what completely symbolic, tribal, grand-standing, self-righteous nonsense we can use to stop real world highly complex phenomenon.

Last edited by LittleNicky; 07/11/15 06:06 PM.

Should probably ask Mr. Kierney. I guess if you're Italian, you should be in prison.
I've read the RICO Act, and I can tell you it's more appropriate...
for some of those guys over in Washington than it is for me or any of my fellas here
Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: rockstar_man45] #850976
07/11/15 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: rockstar_man45
@Faithful, I disagree on one point.

The flag may represent slavery, hatred and discrimination, but there are a great many, perhaps more, people that believe it be purely a symbol of the south and the good things it has to offer. It's complex. It belongs in museums, it belongs in Civil War graves and sites, and a private citizen has a right to fly it if they choose. It is part of our history, we cannot erase that.

The removal of the flag from the South Carolina state house, which I agree with, does not change or solve any problems faced by the black community today, that still struggle with poverty, wedlock, crime and negative stereotyping that are only enforced when killing sprees like the one last weekend in Chicago occur.


Agree with some of this.

I think that the flag issue is completely separate one from Black pathology, though.

Flag issue, at least in terms of state buildings,etc...is an American issue. Battle flag means different things to different people, BUT it was adopted by groups who expressly did not want Blacks to have full rights as citizens.Very un-American view in my opinion.

I don't view the flags coming down from govt. property as a victory/solution/magic spell for Blacks but more as a step forward for Americans in general.

Like I've written earlier in this thread, there have been efforts to take the flags down from state buildings,etc for decades.Certain sporting events do not take place in states flying the flag, for example.

This story goes back before recent the church shooting.

If you, or anyone reading this, have ever read the Godfather..recall the story of the mortician asking the favor from the Don. He was an emasculated guy, because of not being able to anything to protect or avenge his daughter. That was fiction. In the Jim Crow South,Black men lived entire lives of emasculation.

Strom Thurmond, the face of 20th century segregation....basically sexually assaulted/raped a young Black girl who cleaned his family's home when he was a young man..in his 20s. What could that girl's father do or say in 1925 South Carolina ? Go to the police?

Emmitt Till was infamously lynched 30 years later in Miss. for being accused of WHISTLING at a white woman..joining countless other American citizens who were lynched publicly (with kids and women in the audience which not even Isis does) for rumors, accusations,etc. With NO legal recourse.

Groups adopting the battle flag to remember the good ol days (jim crow era and pre 1865)...knew full well what imagery represents to Blacks who grew up under jim crow.

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: Faithful1] #851180
07/13/15 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: Faithful1
The issue isn't being a modern-day Southerner, the issue was the Confederate States of America. The issue with CSA is that it was a country that separated from the USA for the express purpose of maintaining slavery and racial discrimination, and it attacked and declared war on the USA. Southern traits like friendliness and hospitality should be treasured, but the CSA should not. Like it or not, the battle flag was a CSA flag, and the battle flag was chosen by the Sons of the Confederacy to represent the CSA in the era of Jim Crow and lynching.

As for a state flying the flag, it makes no sense to fly the flag of a country that went to war against the USA. It's not un-American, it's anti-American.



the confederate flag is a direct slap in the face to the american flag

not too mention it's only worshipped by racist

Re: The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go? [Re: rockstar_man45] #851396
07/14/15 03:45 PM
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I agree it belongs in museums and civil war battle sites, but it does not belong on graves any more than the Nazi flag should fly over the German cemeteries. Are you comfortable with swastikas flying over the German war dead buried in France? After all, it is part of history. I disagree that more people in this country believe that this flag is a symbol of the good things in the south.


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