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May 27th, 2012
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Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: NickyWhip] #798557
08/27/14 07:18 AM
08/27/14 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: NickyWhip
please clarify: Didn't the Chin make a comment about Gotti getting his son involved in the life? Something Like "I would never bring my kids into this"

Aren't his family involved??

His legitimate son, Andrew, was a union heavyweight. But he was never made. His son by his girlfriend, Vinny Esposito, has his button. But now that Vince is dead I don't think he's even active.

Those people have all the money in the world. They're nuts if they even jaywalk with that last name.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798569
08/27/14 08:48 AM
08/27/14 08:48 AM
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Im sure he had a healthy respect at the very least. Chin was an extremely intelligent, crafty and very calculating character. always reminded me of a Bond villain for some reason.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798584
08/27/14 10:25 AM
08/27/14 10:25 AM
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I do think Gotti was at least leery about going to war with the Westside. Like it or not they were so powerful even then Gotti knew not to fool around.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: MemphisMafia] #798622
08/27/14 12:01 PM
08/27/14 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: MemphisMafia
Serpiente,maybe I didn't make myself clear.It is my opinion that Gotti,Decicco,Casso or anyone in the mob at that time would have been very hesitant and were more than aware that Demeo was not an easy man to kill and that taking a contract on him could and be dangerous.i don't think any of them were "scared".I also think that Gotti got to be the Boss of the Gambino's knowing and accepting that the way he achieved being Boss could start a war with Gigante.The rest is history,brother

I got ya ,I did not know if you were telling or asking.
I see your point.


Cackling like a banty Rooster.

I love this," "I just love this."
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: domwoods74] #798690
08/27/14 03:38 PM
08/27/14 03:38 PM
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Posts: 4,580
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Originally Posted By: domwoods74
None of them did really . Peter gotti used to clean the toilets in the bergin and ended up boss


He looks like he used all the toilet duck on himself.


In my thoughts, I use the technique of positive visualization.
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798754
08/27/14 06:43 PM
08/27/14 06:43 PM
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Posts: 122
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Serpiente,believe me I'm not telling you or anyone anything.From what I have read I can only give my opinion.I am much more likely to ask someone as you on the Philly Mob or some of the New York guys on that city's mob.I just enjoy the hell out of reading your post and the other posters on here who grew up with this in their backyard and actually knew some mobsters.Again,I would never try and tell any of ya'll guys anything.You want to know about Elvis,I got you.I will leave the mafia to the guys who grew up around it.Thanks though,budro

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: NickyWhip] #798787
08/27/14 09:10 PM
08/27/14 09:10 PM
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mulberry Offline
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Originally Posted By: NickyWhip
please clarify: Didn't the Chin make a comment about Gotti getting his son involved in the life? Something Like "I would never bring my kids into this"

Aren't his family involved??


He used his son as a messenger but not a made man. His son is involved with the unions making a good living

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: mulberry] #798790
08/27/14 09:21 PM
08/27/14 09:21 PM
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Posts: 23,235
Throggs Neck
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Originally Posted By: mulberry
Originally Posted By: NickyWhip
please clarify: Didn't the Chin make a comment about Gotti getting his son involved in the life? Something Like "I would never bring my kids into this"

Aren't his family involved??


He used his son as a messenger but not a made man. His son is involved with the unions making a good living

Yeah, I mentioned that about Andrew. But Vinny Esposito is indeed made. But from what I understand he's not very active.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798818
08/28/14 04:23 AM
08/28/14 04:23 AM
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Gotti definetly feared some mobsters during his life. I mean all know he feared Roy demeo according to Gene Gotti's phone conversation with Angelo in 1982. Im sure he knew how smart and powerful the Chin was. Hell even Paul castellano made gotti sweat when Paul was at the height of his power. Gotti was only able to kill Paul when Paul was at his weakest point

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: JCrusher] #798833
08/28/14 05:34 AM
08/28/14 05:34 AM
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Posts: 512
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Originally Posted By: JCrusher
Gotti definetly feared some mobsters during his life. I mean all know he feared Roy demeo according to Gene Gotti's phone conversation with Angelo in 1982.


Is this phone conversation available online anywhere between Gene and Angelo in 82'?

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798861
08/28/14 07:05 AM
08/28/14 07:05 AM
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Depends on what you mean by "fear". That's like asking if Hitler and Stalin feared each other. Well they probably did, since they both knew the other guy was very powerful and could hurt them.

Everyone fears their rivals, otherwise they wouldn't be rivals. And a man without fear is a dead man walking.

We know Gotti "feared" the Chin, not because Bruce Mouw(or was it Coffey?) said Gotti blinked when hearing the West Side or bullshit like that, but because Gotti was no idiot. He saw how close Chin and Casso came to killing him with the bomb.

But people spin this into Chin idolatry. If Gotti feared Chin, then Chin also feared Gotti, because Chin also wasn't an idiot. Otherwise why try and kill him in the first place? Why ally with Casso in the first place?

"Stickler for the rules" my ass. Chin feared Gotti for one reason: because of the precedent Gotti killing Castellano set. It meant no one was bulletproof or above being killed. If Castellano got it, it might also be open season on the Chin. That's it.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tyler_Durden] #798902
08/28/14 09:48 AM
08/28/14 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tyler_Durden
Depends on what you mean by "fear". That's like asking if Hitler and Stalin feared each other. Well they probably did, since they both knew the other guy was very powerful and could hurt them.

Everyone fears their rivals, otherwise they wouldn't be rivals. And a man without fear is a dead man walking.

We know Gotti "feared" the Chin, not because Bruce Mouw(or was it Coffey?) said Gotti blinked when hearing the West Side or bullshit like that, but because Gotti was no idiot. He saw how close Chin and Casso came to killing him with the bomb.

But people spin this into Chin idolatry. If Gotti feared Chin, then Chin also feared Gotti, because Chin also wasn't an idiot. Otherwise why try and kill him in the first place? Why ally with Casso in the first place?

"Stickler for the rules" my ass. Chin feared Gotti for one reason: because of the precedent Gotti killing Castellano set. It meant no one was bulletproof or above being killed. If Castellano got it, it might also be open season on the Chin. That's it.



It was Mouw who later told about Gotti's reaction when they told him the West Side was planning on hitting him. And I'm not sure why people say it's "bullshit." Mouw apparently saw a change come over the usual ego-driven, carefree Gotti that showed he took the threat seriously and it "meant something to him," as Mouw put it.

We also know that, while Gotti only suspected that Chin was behind his underboss getting blown up, he now had proof from the feds that the Genovese were gunning for him. But there was never any retaliation. They confronted the Genovese about it but, as they probably suspected he would, Chin just played dumb.

I think both Chin and Gotti were wary of the other. But it definitely seems that Chin was more ready and willing to strike than Gotti was. But I've never seen this as a reason for idolizing Chin.

I do agree about the reason for Chin's anger at Gotti. Gotti's move put all bosses, including Chin, in danger. And that's what got DeCicco blown up. The later plotting against John and Gene Gotti, by Bobby Manna, was more related to Gambino encroachment on Genovese territory in New Jersey.

Last edited by IvyLeague; 08/28/14 09:50 AM.

Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: IvyLeague] #798903
08/28/14 09:53 AM
08/28/14 09:53 AM
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I guess one way to measure if Gotti was afraid of being hit is what security precautions he took. Was he acting like a guy who is afraid of getting hit? Concealing his movements, keeping irregular schedule etc? If not, then I guess he either didn't believe he'd get murdered or wasn't afraid of it.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Belette] #798905
08/28/14 09:56 AM
08/28/14 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: Belette
I guess one way to measure if Gotti was afraid of being hit is what security precautions he took. Was he acting like a guy who is afraid of getting hit? Concealing his movements, keeping irregular schedule etc? If not, then I guess he either didn't believe he'd get murdered or wasn't afraid of it.


I read somewhere years ago that Gotti supposedly beefed up his entourage after the feds warned him.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: pizzaboy] #798907
08/28/14 09:59 AM
08/28/14 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy

Yeah, I mentioned that about Andrew. But Vinny Esposito is indeed made. But from what I understand he's not very active.


sorry PB, I didn't see your post

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: IvyLeague] #798908
08/28/14 10:00 AM
08/28/14 10:00 AM
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Yes that makes sense. That's interesting.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798909
08/28/14 10:01 AM
08/28/14 10:01 AM
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Posts: 4,580
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There were a few threats against Gotti in the period that he was boss. Didn't a homeless guy try to kill him too?


In my thoughts, I use the technique of positive visualization.
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Belette] #798910
08/28/14 10:01 AM
08/28/14 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: Belette
I guess one way to measure if Gotti was afraid of being hit is what security precautions he took. Was he acting like a guy who is afraid of getting hit? Concealing his movements, keeping irregular schedule etc? If not, then I guess he either didn't believe he'd get murdered or wasn't afraid of it.


He didn't change his pattern at all according to the feds. He woke up late and was picked up in the Mercedes by his driver and went to the hair stylist before heading to the Ravenite each day.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Moe_Tilden] #798911
08/28/14 10:04 AM
08/28/14 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: Moe_Tilden
There were a few threats against Gotti in the period that he was boss. Didn't a homeless guy try to kill him too?


A crazy guy named William Ciccone took a few shots at Gotti. Joe Watts who got rid of Ciccone

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798956
08/28/14 02:40 PM
08/28/14 02:40 PM
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the West Side Baby, END OF STORY

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: mulberry] #798959
08/28/14 02:42 PM
08/28/14 02:42 PM
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This is quite off topic, but since this thread is about fear and especially about fearlessness, I'll say this. My true love is the history of WW2 air warfare. My father took me to the airport since I was maybe 5 years old because flying was his passion (he flew, I sat on the grass waiting, until I was older), and it is still his passion even though he's around 65. Me and my father have a collection of about 200 books exclusively about WW2 airwar. We have both studied this quite a lot. And one thing that comes up with the best of pilots is, they face almost impossible odds on daily basis, with the knowledge that this will probably be their last mission. They talk about fear of death quite a lot, and believe me, there is such a thing as intelligent, tactical guy with no fear of death. War brings out a ton of these guys. I'm not saying that Gotti is anything like these guys, but there really are people on this earth who you can't intimidate.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #798982
08/28/14 03:41 PM
08/28/14 03:41 PM
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oldschool3 Offline
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I guess Gotti would have beyond intimidation if he could fly a plane...sorry Belette..just breaking your balls....good point.

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: oldschool3] #798990
08/28/14 03:53 PM
08/28/14 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: oldschool3
I guess Gotti would have beyond intimidation if he could fly a plane...sorry Belette..just breaking your balls....good point.


Why you...

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: mulberry] #799046
08/28/14 05:46 PM
08/28/14 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: mulberry
Originally Posted By: Belette
I guess one way to measure if Gotti was afraid of being hit is what security precautions he took. Was he acting like a guy who is afraid of getting hit? Concealing his movements, keeping irregular schedule etc? If not, then I guess he either didn't believe he'd get murdered or wasn't afraid of it.


He didn't change his pattern at all according to the feds. He woke up late and was picked up in the Mercedes by his driver and went to the hair stylist before heading to the Ravenite each day.


Between the paps and the Feds he had the best bodyguards following him around he could get......

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #799051
08/28/14 05:52 PM
08/28/14 05:52 PM
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North StL County, MO
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Here's a related question people seem to overlook: Did Gotti fear Casso and the Luchese's? They were the ones who actually tried to kill him, weren't they?

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Belette] #799063
08/28/14 06:17 PM
08/28/14 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Belette
This is quite off topic, but since this thread is about fear and especially about fearlessness, I'll say this. My true love is the history of WW2 air warfare. My father took me to the airport since I was maybe 5 years old because flying was his passion (he flew, I sat on the grass waiting, until I was older), and it is still his passion even though he's around 65. Me and my father have a collection of about 200 books exclusively about WW2 airwar. We have both studied this quite a lot. And one thing that comes up with the best of pilots is, they face almost impossible odds on daily basis, with the knowledge that this will probably be their last mission. They talk about fear of death quite a lot, and believe me, there is such a thing as intelligent, tactical guy with no fear of death. War brings out a ton of these guys. I'm not saying that Gotti is anything like these guys, but there really are people on this earth who you can't intimidate.


I LOVE those old WW2 movie like "12 O'clock high" etc....

Boy some of those guys had balls. The more missions they flew the higher the chances of getting killed. It was sort of a numbers game, right?

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: salvi62] #799066
08/28/14 06:30 PM
08/28/14 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: salvi62
Originally Posted By: Belette
This is quite off topic, but since this thread is about fear and especially about fearlessness, I'll say this. My true love is the history of WW2 air warfare. My father took me to the airport since I was maybe 5 years old because flying was his passion (he flew, I sat on the grass waiting, until I was older), and it is still his passion even though he's around 65. Me and my father have a collection of about 200 books exclusively about WW2 airwar. We have both studied this quite a lot. And one thing that comes up with the best of pilots is, they face almost impossible odds on daily basis, with the knowledge that this will probably be their last mission. They talk about fear of death quite a lot, and believe me, there is such a thing as intelligent, tactical guy with no fear of death. War brings out a ton of these guys. I'm not saying that Gotti is anything like these guys, but there really are people on this earth who you can't intimidate.


I LOVE those old WW2 movie like "12 O'clock high" etc....

Boy some of those guys had balls. The more missions they flew the higher the chances of getting killed. It was sort of a numbers game, right?


I agree and imagine the people like my grandparents that only survived not getting bombed by following the French POW's in the trenches. Talk about balls too!

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: PetroPirelli] #799106
08/29/14 12:42 AM
08/29/14 12:42 AM
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Yes, even though these top aces were incredibly skilled and brave, as one of them estimated "luck is about 50% of it". It amazes me how it's possible. Take Erich Hartmann, the top ace of ww2. He flew over 1400 missions with 352 kills, and was never shot down. It's truly incredible.

For anyone who is interested, there's an american documentary from 1944 (in color!) on youtube which has the best real air combat footage I've ever seen. It's really worth a look, even if you skip the boring parts wink There's a guy who lands a plane on the aircraft carrier with the windshield covered in blood after being shot in the face by the AA gun. http://youtu.be/B5JbXRDOP60

I gotta say, I wish I was as tough as my grandfathers generation...

Last edited by Belette; 08/29/14 12:50 AM.
Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #799110
08/29/14 01:30 AM
08/29/14 01:30 AM
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I think the Chin feared Gotti. Why didn't he attack Gotti head on? Why did they use a bomb to blame the Sicilians? The Chin partnered with the Lucheses only... why?

Cause Gotti controlled Vic Orena and skillfully fueled the Colombo war. And Gotti had the Bonannos, too, via his pal, the Fat Rat.

Gotti controlled three families and was probably stronger and definitely willing to fight. In fact, he probably wanted a war, knowing how much of a gambler tough guy he was.

Also elsewhere I read something about Casso and D'Arco. Al was in a tough spot, I believe. Casso wiped out many of the Luchese family's heavy hitters, like Facciolla who would've been the first crew to assassinate Casso if Casso hadn't killed him first, before the family really knew what they were dealing with. I know some of you will say you can't believe Al but I found his story very believable. He and Crea supposedly discussed making a move right before Al flipped. If Daidone had gone with them, I really think there would've been a takeover, or an attempt, at least. Capeci provided a lot of context and detail in Mob Boss without D'Arco, I think he vetted the book pretty well.

Lastly I heard comments about Linda Scarpa....obviously it's unfair for me to comment but I will say she and I were friends and.she really pulled some devious crap on me. There was provocation. A person on FB, whom I think was fake, kept DMing me crap like she thought I was a Scarpa. "You hung out at Wimpy Boys with so and so, right?" I kept correcting her but she kept DMing me that she just saw so and so and said hello from me, etc and etc. I finally told him/her that they were an idiot and a troublemaker and I blocked her. The fraud may have been driving Linda nuts too. Lisa was the first name she was using. Some old nobody.

Sorry, guys, I had to get that off my chest and for some reason the words decided to flow here and now..... Sorry if this is long and rambling... And Scarpo is not my real name. I made it up....

Re: Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin [Re: Tonytough] #799165
08/29/14 08:52 AM
08/29/14 08:52 AM
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While I have a ton of respect for soldiers (I wanted to be a fighter pilot myself) I still think many are scared of dying whether they admit it or not. I agree with PB that EVERYONE is afraid of something or some man whether they admit it or not.

Even kamikaze pilots were afraid of something, suicide bombers etc. We all have something that scares us.

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