0 registered members (),
116
guests, and 2
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics42,216
Posts1,056,190
Members10,349
|
Most Online796 Jan 21st, 2020
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Frankie_Five_Angels]
#958674
11/27/18 11:01 PM
11/27/18 11:01 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 734
Michael_Giovanni
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 734
|
Watching it tonight I noticed that when Vito was shot he’s struggling to get on his feet then he falls over unconscious lying on his back. After they show Fredo crying there is a wider shot and suddenly Vito is lying on his left side. Bit of a goof there.
Last edited by Michael_Giovanni; 11/27/18 11:03 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Evita]
#958850
12/02/18 02:40 PM
12/02/18 02:40 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487 AZ
Turnbull
|
![](/ubb/5stars10k.gif)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487
AZ
|
When Michael and Fredo are having their little tete-a-tete in Havana, Michael says to Fredo,"Senator Geary is flying in from Washington tomorrow night with some people -- some government people. I want you to show them a good time in Havana." Fredo seems to smirk, resignedly, and says, "My specialty, right?" as if that's all Michael ever expected of him. It adds to the force of Fredo's outburst in the boathouse later, when he shouts, "Send Fredo to do this, send Fredo to do that...send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub somewhere."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Turnbull]
#958852
12/02/18 03:38 PM
12/02/18 03:38 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,039
JCrusher
Underboss
|
Underboss![](/ubb/3stars.gif)
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,039
|
When Michael and Fredo are having their little tete-a-tete in Havana, Michael says to Fredo,"Senator Geary is flying in from Washington tomorrow night with some people -- some government people. I want you to show them a good time in Havana." Fredo seems to smirk, resignedly, and says, "My specialty, right?" as if that's all Michael ever expected of him. It adds to the force of Fredo's outburst in the boathouse later, when he shouts, "Send Fredo to do this, send Fredo to do that...send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub somewhere."
Despie that Fredo still wanted to help Mike. I still feel like there are people who feel like Fredo was cold blooded traitor because of the boathouse outburst. Yes he had those feeling BUT he was never gonna actually turn on his brother. Even mike admits Roth misled him and lied to him
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: olivant]
#958892
12/03/18 02:03 AM
12/03/18 02:03 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487 AZ
Turnbull
|
![](/ubb/5stars10k.gif)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487
AZ
|
On the other hand, should Michael have detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal? Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?
Good questions, Oli. It didn't take genius for Michael figure that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family in his absence. But he didn't figure that his constant sidelining of Fredo into "Mickey Mouse" jobs (and his put down of Fredo in Vegas after the Moe Green meeting) would cause enough resentment to turn his brother into a traitor. Fredo might have come to Havana on his own and known how to show people a good time. But, I thought it was suspicious that Johnny Ola said, "We never met." If Ola remembered Hagen from the old days, he surely must have met Fredo as well. Why didn't Michael pick up on that? For that matter, Sonny should have picked up that Carlo would be filled with enough hatred of him after his public beating and humiliation that he'd turn traitor and set Sonny up. As Vito said in GF: "Women and children can afford to be careless. But not men."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Turnbull]
#958902
12/03/18 09:00 AM
12/03/18 09:00 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,039
JCrusher
Underboss
|
Underboss![](/ubb/3stars.gif)
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,039
|
On the other hand, should Michael have detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal? Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?
Good questions, Oli. It didn't take genius for Michael figure that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family in his absence. But he didn't figure that his constant sidelining of Fredo into "Mickey Mouse" jobs (and his put down of Fredo in Vegas after the Moe Green meeting) would cause enough resentment to turn his brother into a traitor. Fredo might have come to Havana on his own and known how to show people a good time. But, I thought it was suspicious that Johnny Ola said, "We never met." If Ola remembered Hagen from the old days, he surely must have met Fredo as well. Why didn't Michael pick up on that? For that matter, Sonny should have picked up that Carlo would be filled with enough hatred of him after his public beating and humiliation that he'd turn traitor and set Sonny up. As Vito said in GF: "Women and children can afford to be careless. But not men." Again it is important how you characterize a traitor. In my eyes a traitor is someone who consciously sides with another family to get your boss/superior killed. For Example Carlo was a traitor because he wanted Sonny dead after the beating AND he thought with sonny gone he would finally move up in the family. Tessio even though he was loyal to Vito and did like Mike he set up Mike to be killed to start his own family. Fredo on the other hand was different. Its clear he was misled and used. Was he weak,stupid,resentful? Absolutely. But it clear his goal in his mind was that he was doing something on his own but helping the family.....he didnt want mike harmed, he didnt even want him out as boss.
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: olivant]
#958906
12/03/18 12:31 PM
12/03/18 12:31 PM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
|
Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party? Where is it said that Fredo had never visited Havana before? I know he claims not to have met Roth or Ola but I don't recall him saying anything about being unfamiliar with Havana.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: JCrusher]
#958907
12/03/18 12:43 PM
12/03/18 12:43 PM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
|
Again it is important how you characterize a traitor. In my eyes a traitor is someone who consciously sides with another family to get your boss/superior killed. For Example Carlo was a traitor because he wanted Sonny dead after the beating AND he thought with sonny gone he would finally move up in the family. Tessio even though he was loyal to Vito and did like Mike he set up Mike to be killed to start his own family. Fredo on the other hand was different. Its clear he was misled and used. Was he weak,stupid,resentful? Absolutely. But it clear his goal in his mind was that he was doing something on his own but helping the family.....he didnt want mike harmed, he didnt even want him out as boss.
This brings up an interesting point: What did Fredo really believe and want? Did he really think that no harm would befall Michael when he told Roth the layout of the house? Did he think that, if he helped close the deal with Roth, that Michael and the rest of the Family would be pleased and give him a more substantial role? Maybe make him the boss, to rectify the mistake of him getting passed over. I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves. Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family. Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years. Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever. And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected. They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#958913
12/03/18 02:10 PM
12/03/18 02:10 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018 Texas
olivant
|
![](/ubb/5stars10k.gif)
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
|
Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party? Where is it said that Fredo had never visited Havana before? I know he claims not to have met Roth or Ola but I don't recall him saying anything about being unfamiliar with Havana. Well, that's the point. If Cuba was Fredo's kind of town and if Fredo was familiar with Cuba's local drinks, then that should have indicated to Michael that Fredo had been to Cuba before.If Fredo had been to Cuba before, then Michael's suspicions should have been aroused.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Turnbull]
#958936
12/03/18 09:04 PM
12/03/18 09:04 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
Evita
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
|
My two cents worth! All sentiments aside... No alarm bells for me either regarding "Havana's great, it's my kinda town" and later knowing the local drinks, local entertainment does not necessarily mean to me that Fredo had been to Cuba before How else is he going to show people a good time without local knowledge? Besides one call to the hotel concierge and he would have had all these information Vito, Michael, Tom, everyone even well-versed Godfather scholars of this board! underestimated Fredo that he was so dangerous and detrimental because he was stepped over, for his kid brother Nobody not Michael, not even Vito had any inclination how detrimental Fredo would be, arguably even setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship Nobody detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal but in all fairness how and why anyone would ever even suspect blood family ever Turnbull put it beautifully! He was such an ineffectual dunce in GF that his betrayal of Michael in II had strong impact--we probably never would have guessed he had it in him...and what else he might have tried if Michael had given him a pass. Guilt and gratitude are the most fleeting of emotions It could be that Fredo had already been sent to Vegas before the old days Ola mentioned and "We never met." at the hotel or anywhere He said “Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills†Fredo was constantly sidelined by Vito and Sonny, long before Michael took over but of course he would have never done what he did to his kid brother, to his father or older brother Vito also figured that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family but also didn't figure being stepped over, for his kid brother would cause enough resentment to turn him into a traitor I reckon Vito is the one who was most careless, destructive in not picking up on disastrous stuff out of the three even slipping regards Sollozzo who was not family unlike blood Fredo and Carlo who was also Sonny's friend prior to marrying Connie Roth and Moe Greene connection had only just surfaced and I reckon Michael seemed pensive perhaps even suspicious when Fredo / Ola introduction was made, may have started to put the treacherous puzzle together but still in denial? Brothers! Fredo arguably setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship Michael the Don actually murders Fredo
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#958939
12/03/18 10:30 PM
12/03/18 10:30 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,039
JCrusher
Underboss
|
Underboss![](/ubb/3stars.gif)
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,039
|
Again it is important how you characterize a traitor. In my eyes a traitor is someone who consciously sides with another family to get your boss/superior killed. For Example Carlo was a traitor because he wanted Sonny dead after the beating AND he thought with sonny gone he would finally move up in the family. Tessio even though he was loyal to Vito and did like Mike he set up Mike to be killed to start his own family. Fredo on the other hand was different. Its clear he was misled and used. Was he weak,stupid,resentful? Absolutely. But it clear his goal in his mind was that he was doing something on his own but helping the family.....he didnt want mike harmed, he didnt even want him out as boss.
This brings up an interesting point: What did Fredo really believe and want? Did he really think that no harm would befall Michael when he told Roth the layout of the house? Did he think that, if he helped close the deal with Roth, that Michael and the rest of the Family would be pleased and give him a more substantial role? Maybe make him the boss, to rectify the mistake of him getting passed over. I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves. Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family. Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years. Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever. And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected. They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them. There really no evidence that Fredos goal is to be the boss despite what he said about being passed over. Its pretty clear all he wanted was some respect as a mobster. He was well liked but mostly out of pity. I think some are still trying to convince us that Fredo was vindictive and treacherous like carlo and tessio. The film makes it clear that its not the case. Part 3 is about how the choice to kill Fredo was evil and senseless
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#959074
12/06/18 01:49 AM
12/06/18 01:49 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750 Australia
Lana
The Hunted One
|
The Hunted One
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
|
This brings up an interesting point: What did Fredo really believe and want? Did he really think that no harm would befall Michael when he told Roth the layout of the house? Did he think that, if he helped close the deal with Roth, that Michael and the rest of the Family would be pleased and give him a more substantial role? Maybe make him the boss, to rectify the mistake of him getting passed over. My take, for what it is worth! I believe the key to all these perhaps lie in Fredo's boathouse outburst Michael certainly believed until Fredo's outburst, Roth mislead Fredo and he didn't know they were planing to kill Michael My view and I hope no sleeping with the fishes for me! among others, - Fredo undoubtedly wanted to be Don Absolutely no question about that
- However 'ostrich' Fredo may have closed his mind as to how he is getting the Donship obviously unless Michael, the current Don is dead
- After the Tahoe shooting no more self-deluded beguile excuse as to how Fredo was getting the Donship
- Fredo arguably opened the window drapes thus 'identifying' Michael's bedroom and knew it was gonna be a hit
- Fredo tells Michael “I didn't know it was gonna be a hit Mike I swear to god I didn't know it was going to be a hit†but Fredo is never going to admit that he set his kid brother up to be murdered
- Fredo's “You lied to me†to Ola could mean that they promised Michael would have been dead and Fredo would have been the new Don by now, the something in it for Fredo
- Even Fredo would have known there was no way he could operate outside the Corleone business, something on his own
- Ola's “Your brother's not going to find out we talked†could be a veiled threat, or else
- Fredo's “I don't know what you're talking about†could be, leave me alone “you got me in deep enough alreadyâ€
- We are none the wiser as to what exactly was the little help Fredo gave Ola but whatever it was it was undoubtedly instrumental in the Tahoe shooting and nothing to do with closing the deal fast! .
- If Fredo did not want to harm Michael why did Fredo still withhold information from Michael like "The Senate lawyer Questadt belongs to Roth"
- Fredo's continued silence was because Fredo still wanted to harm Michael and try to send him to Prison for Don Fredo
- How hard it was, like pulling teeth, for Michael to extract the information from Fredo in the boathouse
The thorn! in my theory is why did Ola phone Fredo about Pentangeli's meeting with the Rosato brothers? Roth and Ola would have known, always knew that Fredo has no involvement in the family business and would know nothing about the meeting So, what was the significance of Ola's late night phone call to Fredo? The only reason I can think of for the phone call scene is to convey the information to the prospective audience that Fredo was the traitor Brothers! Fredo arguably setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship Michael the Don actually murders Fredo Amen to that!
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#959075
12/06/18 01:49 AM
12/06/18 01:49 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750 Australia
Lana
The Hunted One
|
The Hunted One
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
|
I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves.
Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family.
Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years.
Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever.
And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected.
They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them A few more, not quite in the same league! as yours though - Vito believes his no to Sollozzo drug deal and then sending Luca over to Tattaglias will find what they have under their fingernails Vito believes after the Baptism, Moe Greene, Carlo murders Michael can live a 'legitimate' life Woltz acts he is bigger than the Corleones and wakes up with his prized horse Khartoum's head Greene thinks he can slap a Corleone around, insult another Corleone and somehow keep the hotel Carlo thinks he can lure Sonny to his murder and somehow end up as Michael's right hand man in Nevada Turncoat Tessio believes he can set his Don up to be murdered and another Don will embrace him into their family
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Lana]
#959578
12/14/18 08:20 AM
12/14/18 08:20 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
Capri
Capo
|
Capo
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
|
Nice take, Lana - Ola's “Your brother's not going to find out we talked†could be a veiled threat, or else
So, what was the significance of Ola's late night phone call to Fredo? The only reason I can think of for the phone call scene is to convey the information to the prospective audience that Fredo was the traitor and “Your brother's not going to find out we talked†so don't blow our cover don't go squealing to your brother
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Frankie_Five_Angels]
#960652
01/02/19 02:20 AM
01/02/19 02:20 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 171 pgh., pa
Guiseppe Petri
. 45 caliber
|
. 45 caliber
Made Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 171
pgh., pa
|
Barzini would have kept tessio around long enough to get vital information, bring over his men then killed him and make it look like the corleones did it for him leaving.
Guiseppe Petri
|
|
|
Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Turnbull]
#962578
01/27/19 09:59 PM
01/27/19 09:59 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,822 Where ever needed.
DuesPaid
Banned
|
Banned
![](/ubb/5stars.gif)
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,822
Where ever needed.
|
In the same scene, look how disgusted Tom seems when Moe comes in. Yes. I see that also.
Be Loyal, Be Loving, Be Quiet.
|
|
|
|