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Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: Snakes] #752653
12/10/13 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Snakes
The two parts that make it hard to believe Oswald acted alone:

1) The head shot, which appeared to come from the front



This is the view from the TSBD window for that fatal 3rd shot according to the ABC special JFK Beyond Conspiracy computer generated simulation. The red spot is where it hit.



This is the computer generated view from the grassy noll when the last shot was fired. No way it came from the picket fence area. Again the red spot is where it actually hit. The bullet would of most likely hit Mrs Kennedy or the car if this was where the fatal shot was fired from.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752655
12/10/13 03:02 PM
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All i know for sure is that in 1956 Oswald had a combined (48 out of 50 & 49 out of 50) score of 97 out of a 100 at rapid fire and at 200 yards....which is over twice the distance JFK was from the the snipers nest. No scope just the sites on his M1 Garand. In Dealey Plaza i think they said the longest distance was only 87 yards and he had a 4x scope. True the scope was garbage but it still helps. He almost missed that last shot. Another inch or so higher and it would of just grazed or completely missed JFK's head.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752659
12/10/13 03:08 PM
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In all honesty, I think the evidence of Oswald's involvement is quite significant and also can not be ignored. And by stating that he was a "patsy" he more or less admitted his involvement.

I believe that if there was a conspiracy (which I think there was) it must have been a very select group of people, probably no more than a couple dozen, for it to work. Within this group there were a few high-ranking mobsters and people who held key positions within the government, its agencies, the military industrial complex and the banking system, who indirectly (or perhaps even directly) control the government, and ofcourse a small group of assassins.

I really don't believe the mob could have done this on their own. Guys such as Marcello were too smart to make such a bold move without backing and assurance. So if the mob was in fact behind it, it automatically means that people who held key positions within the government or its agencies were involved as well, because only they would've been able to arrange for the cover-up.

The irony of the conspiracy theories is that it is a product that has been created by the government itself. Both the FBI and the CIA have been acting very suspicious in the aftermath of the assassination. This would've been unnecessary if there was no conspiracy of any kind. For example, the CIA made an incredibly strange move by showing a photograph of a man that was supposedly taken at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City and claiming that this was Oswald, while he clearly wasn't. They could've at least chosen someone would looked the part. What kind of game were they playing?


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752660
12/10/13 03:13 PM
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Sonny i always believed that the government trying to cover up all the stuff it was doing at the time was alot of the reason all the conspiracy theories got serious traction.

I used to believe in most of those conspiracy theories myself ....for a very long time. But then my thoughts on it started evolving into my current thinking. But i'm open to all the new stuff if there is any. I don't think anyone will ever be totally convinced one way or the other. It's the big who knows.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: Toodoped] #752663
12/10/13 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Thanks stern49
One of the biggest reasons Roselli got whacked was his big mouth.


I have also read that he had a big mouth, especially towards the end. With that in mind, how is it that he only told Bonanno, especially since they probably weren't that close? If he blabbed this to others, word probably would have spread via the mob gossip line.

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black

The main reason why I believe in a conspiracy to at least some degree is that there are just too many freak coincidences. David Ferrie's connections to Oswald and Carlos Marcello, Oswald's uncle working for Marcello, Oswald's connection to the CIA, Jack Ruby's connections to Marcello, Oswald's connections to anti-Castro groups and their connections to the CIA and Marcello, etc. Most of these connections are established facts and simply cannot be ignored.


This is exactly why I have always believed in a conspiracy.


You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: stern49] #752676
12/10/13 03:54 PM
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Sorry guys for goin a little bit out of topic but is it true that Costello put a contract on Joe Kennedy?Or is it just another false rumour?


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: LittleMan] #752682
12/10/13 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: LittleMan

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black

The main reason why I believe in a conspiracy to at least some degree is that there are just too many freak coincidences. David Ferrie's connections to Oswald and Carlos Marcello, Oswald's uncle working for Marcello, Oswald's connection to the CIA, Jack Ruby's connections to Marcello, Oswald's connections to anti-Castro groups and their connections to the CIA and Marcello, etc. Most of these connections are established facts and simply cannot be ignored.


This is exactly why I have always believed in a conspiracy.


One thing about Jack Ruby is that he had links to a lot of different people. He worked for Nixon campaign years prior. He was friends with many Dallas police, politicians and district attorney. He was involved with gun running to Cubans, which could have put him in contact with CIA operatives. He was also acquainted with underworld gangster figures. Seems like he rubbed shoulders with all the movers and shakers across the spectrum. A creative person could link Ruby with just about any person or group if they wanted to. On his deathbed he still denied that he was part of any conspiracy.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: Giancarlo] #752686
12/10/13 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
All i know for sure is that in 1956 Oswald had a combined (48 out of 50 & 49 out of 50) score of 97 out of a 100 at rapid fire and at 200 yards....which is over twice the distance JFK was from the the snipers nest. No scope just the sites on his M1 Garand. In Dealey Plaza i think they said the longest distance was only 87 yards and he had a 4x scope. True the scope was garbage but it still helps. He almost missed that last shot. Another inch or so higher and it would of just grazed or completely missed JFK's head.


I have seen Oswald's scores as 212 and 191 for "sharpshooter" and "marksman" respectively - neither of which are considered difficult to reach. What is difficult is firing three shots within an eight-second span (and also reloading) with a clumsy weapon at a moving target going away from you with trees obstructing part of your view. This is the main problem that I have with the lone gunmen theory. Maybe there was a backup shooter that Oswald was unaware of? I am not a Kennedy assassination buff by any means, I just find this whole discussion interesting.


"Snakes... Snakes... I don't know no Snakes."
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752700
12/10/13 04:31 PM
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Snakes the clock starts after the first shot is fired so it's 8 seconds to fire the second and third shots.

Bang....4 seconds.....Bang....4 seconds....Bang

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752702
12/10/13 04:36 PM
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My main concern was that he missed that first shot which you would think would of been the easiest but i think it was possibly deflected by either a tree branch or maybe the traffic signal.

Last edited by Giancarlo; 12/10/13 04:40 PM.
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: Snakes] #752710
12/10/13 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Snakes
I have seen Oswald's scores as 212 and 191 for "sharpshooter" and "marksman" respectively - neither of which are considered difficult to reach. What is difficult is firing three shots within an eight-second span (and also reloading) with a clumsy weapon at a moving target going away from you with trees obstructing part of your view. This is the main problem that I have with the lone gunmen theory. Maybe there was a backup shooter that Oswald was unaware of? I am not a Kennedy assassination buff by any means, I just find this whole discussion interesting.


I guess it's possible, because under a certain amount of stress & adrenaline people can achieve things beyond their capabilities.

I'm open-minded when it comes to Oswald. Both camps have provided decent arguments on whether he was involved or set up. The only undisputed facts are that Oswald was in Dallas that day and worked at the location where Kennedy was killed, and along with his personal history as a political activist and as a sharpshooter in the marines, that is reason enough to consider him a suspect.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752716
12/10/13 05:06 PM
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I'm sorry if I skimmed over someone else saying it, but I just want to say have any of you read "mortal error"?

I haven't, but respected people who's politically neutral opinions I trust swear by the science of the book. What it says is that this crazy second gunman theory was actually a secret service agent in the car behind kennedy who wheeled around upon hearing oswald's shot and accidently fired, hitting kennedy in the back of the head and putting the final nail in his coffin.

I'm not going to get into more details to explain why this theory makes 100x more sense than any other crazy mob-cia-soviet plot, I will if need be. I'm just saying, if you're interested in the jfk thing, research the mortal error theory because it covers all the bases and explains a lot of things in a very rational way that isn't some crazy conspiracy that involves gangsters on the grassy knoll and soviets in the sewer

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: Snakes] #752717
12/10/13 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Snakes
Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
All i know for sure is that in 1956 Oswald had a combined (48 out of 50 & 49 out of 50) score of 97 out of a 100 at rapid fire and at 200 yards....which is over twice the distance JFK was from the the snipers nest. No scope just the sites on his M1 Garand. In Dealey Plaza i think they said the longest distance was only 87 yards and he had a 4x scope. True the scope was garbage but it still helps. He almost missed that last shot. Another inch or so higher and it would of just grazed or completely missed JFK's head.


I have seen Oswald's scores as 212 and 191 for "sharpshooter" and "marksman" respectively - neither of which are considered difficult to reach. What is difficult is firing three shots within an eight-second span (and also reloading) with a clumsy weapon at a moving target going away from you with trees obstructing part of your view. This is the main problem that I have with the lone gunmen theory. Maybe there was a backup shooter that Oswald was unaware of? I am not a Kennedy assassination buff by any means, I just find this whole discussion interesting.


Actually trees weren't obstructing his view. This was the view Oswald had -

I have no idea if there was a conspiracy or not, there are good points on both sides. I do think Oswald could have made the shots though.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752722
12/10/13 05:10 PM
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Camaral...did you see that show JFK: The missing bullet? It makes a very believable claim that the first shot was fired earlier when JFK was going under that traffic light.

If you've never seen it you should check it out...i like it myself and thought it was interesting.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: Giancarlo] #752731
12/10/13 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
Camaral...did you see that show JFK: The missing bullet? It makes a very believable claim that the first shot was fired earlier when JFK was going under that traffic light.

If you've never seen it you should check it out...i like it myself and thought it was interesting.


Many witnesses said first shot came as soon as limo rounded the corner.
Directly under the 6th floor, there were 3 depository employees (Williams, Norman and Jarman) watching the motorcade. They stated that 2nd and 3rd shots shook the building. Norman stated he heard the bolt action of the rifle with each shot and heard the expended cartridges hit the floor. For some reason their testimony doesn't get enough attention. Maybe because they were African American? I don't know.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: ht2] #752732
12/10/13 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: ht2
For some reason their testimony doesn't get enough attention. Maybe because they were African American? I don't know.

Right...he was on that one show and i thought he came across as very believable and they had film of when people in the crowd reacted after that first shot.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: littlemango] #752748
12/10/13 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: littlemango
I'm sorry if I skimmed over someone else saying it, but I just want to say have any of you read "mortal error"?

I haven't, but respected people who's politically neutral opinions I trust swear by the science of the book. What it says is that this crazy second gunman theory was actually a secret service agent in the car behind kennedy who wheeled around upon hearing oswald's shot and accidently fired, hitting kennedy in the back of the head and putting the final nail in his coffin.

I'm not going to get into more details to explain why this theory makes 100x more sensethan any other crazy mob-cia-soviet plot, I will if need be. I'm just saying, if you're interested in the jfk thing, research the mortal error theory because it covers all the bases and explains a lot of things in a very rational way that isn't some crazy conspiracy that involves gangsters on the grassy knoll and soviets in the sewer


I saw a program on tv three weeks ago about this very theory. I have no idea about anything other than what's been stated a hundred times. This mortal error theory was totally new to me.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752751
12/10/13 07:48 PM
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I saw Mortal Error too.....it was based on the book with the same name. His theory went that the entrance wound in JFK's skull from the third shot (which he claimed) was only 6mm wide. The ammo Oswald was shooting was 6.5mm ammo. So he said it had to be made by a smaller round. Thats when he focused in on that one secret service agent with the AR15 which shoots 5.56mm ammo. He said when the agent fell backwards the gun accidently fired a round and that was the third shot that klled JFK.

The agent sued but it was thrown out of court because he waited too long to file the lawsuit but when it was republished as a paperback he sued again and the publisher made him an out of court settlement i believe it was.

Last edited by Giancarlo; 12/10/13 07:58 PM.
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752752
12/10/13 08:01 PM
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Thanks Giancarlo for the "rest of the story." I actually did not see all the program and appreciate you filling me in.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752753
12/10/13 08:03 PM
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I thought it was an interesting show...i watch most of that stuff on the assassination. But i'll have to disagree with the books author on this one.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassina [Re: stern49] #752822
12/11/13 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: stern49
Thaddeus, there's wayyyyyyy too many coincidences for Oswald to have done it alone and what about all those witnesses murdered? There's no way he killed him by himself. I think people like you just want to believe that it was one shooter because it's too complicated and easier just to say it's Oswald.


I don't WANT to believe anything, I believe what makes sense to me. I've read 3 conspiracy theory books and seen every documentary out there and like i said i once believed there was a conspiracy. I came to a point where i started thinking that the Oswald explanation held the most water and when i came across Case Closed, that kind of removed most of the doubt for me. I don't propose to know what happened because i don't know. I'll likely never know, but Oswald as the assassin rings truest for me.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: stern49] #752853
12/11/13 01:01 PM
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Some1 said somethin about the government still keeping the JFK files as confidential?!Dont know if it was on this thread or the previous.Is that true?


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: Toodoped] #752862
12/11/13 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Some1 said somethin about the government still keeping the JFK files as confidential?!Dont know if it was on this thread or the previous.Is that true?


Another example of the government acting suspicious. If there was no conspiracy, why hide information from the public? I think the best thing we can expect from these documents is, once they are made public, that Marcello and co. were behind it. It's easy to put the blame on a criminal who has since deceased. That way they will probably satisfy a lot of conspiracy theorists.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: Toodoped] #752869
12/11/13 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Sorry guys for goin a little bit out of topic but is it true that Costello put a contract on Joe Kennedy?Or is it just another false rumour?


We must read the same books. I read a theory that Joe Kennedy got Giancana to soothe things over with Costello, and convinced him to call off the contract. In return, old man Kennedy would arrange for Jack to be very kind to the mob when in the oval office.

I don't recall, however, what Joe Kennedy supposedly did to anger Costello...


You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: Sonny_Black] #752878
12/11/13 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Some1 said somethin about the government still keeping the JFK files as confidential?!Dont know if it was on this thread or the previous.Is that true?


Another example of the government acting suspicious. If there was no conspiracy, why hide information from the public? I think the best thing we can expect from these documents is, once they are made public, that Marcello and co. were behind it. It's easy to put the blame on a criminal who has since deceased. That way they will probably satisfy a lot of conspiracy theorists.


Agreed 100%.cheers


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: LittleMan] #752879
12/11/13 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: LittleMan
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Sorry guys for goin a little bit out of topic but is it true that Costello put a contract on Joe Kennedy?Or is it just another false rumour?


We must read the same books. I read a theory that Joe Kennedy got Giancana to soothe things over with Costello, and convinced him to call off the contract. In return, old man Kennedy would arrange for Jack to be very kind to the mob when in the oval office.

I don't recall, however, what Joe Kennedy supposedly did to anger Costello...


We read the same stuff cuz we're interested in the same theories and ofcourse we agree on the same stuff.

By the way i asked that question on purpose,to show some people around here about the involvment between the kennedys and the mob even before jfk got elected


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: stern49] #752918
12/11/13 06:37 PM
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Here are some excerpts from Russo's book. Some interesting info.

http://books.google.com/books?id=GnCn1u-...nge&f=false

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: Toodoped] #752936
12/11/13 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Some1 said somethin about the government still keeping the JFK files as confidential?!Dont know if it was on this thread or the previous.Is that true?


Yeah apparently they won't be released until 2017 i think it was. The one thing i don't get is why would they keep documents on this? Surely if there was some sort of conspiracy, they wouldn't have been stupid enough to document it. I doubt these documents will amount to that much to be honest, it'll just spawn hundreds of new books with tonnes of new theories.

Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: Camarel] #753014
12/12/13 11:15 AM
12/12/13 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Some1 said somethin about the government still keeping the JFK files as confidential?!Dont know if it was on this thread or the previous.Is that true?


The one thing i don't get is why would they keep documents on this? Surely if there was some sort of conspiracy, they wouldn't have been stupid enough to document it. I doubt these documents will amount to that much to be honest, it'll just spawn hundreds of new books with tonnes of new theories.



You r totally right Camarel.Why the fuck would they keep the files in secret if Oswald was actin alone?!He's dead right?....but wait,maybe some of the conspirators are still alive?! whistle


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: John Roselli Was Involved In The JFK Assassination [Re: stern49] #753051
12/12/13 02:20 PM
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Oswald started working at the TSBD on Oct 16.

18 year old Buell Wesley Frazier had gotten a job there, his sister was having lunch or coffee with friends and one of the woman there was Ruth Paine. She told Paine there might be another job opening at the TSBD. Ruth Paine told Oswald and he was then hired him as a temp worker but they kept him on to do some wood flooring work.

The motorcade route was only announced a week ahead of time. If Oswald had a drivers license he very well could of gotten another job Paine knew of at some gypsum company and she found another job at a airline she was trying to notify him of.

So you would have to believe Ruth Paine was part of the conspiracy which a poster on another forum told me she was the key to the entire plot. OK if thats what you believe.

Oswald only knew that motorcade was passing by for a week or so before the hit. Thats when he decided to kill JFK IMO.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/leejob2.txt

He bought the guns, he brought the rifle with him the day of the murder and later he went home and got the revolver that killed the cop. All facts.

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