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May 27th, 2012
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Anastasia shooters #752263
12/08/13 04:31 PM
12/08/13 04:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
domwoods74 Offline OP
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In your view who do you think Anastasia's shooters were ? There have been many people touted as his killers from the gallos and persicos or Steven arm one Arnold Wittenberg and Steven graummata . Has anyone got any other theories

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752274
12/08/13 05:26 PM
12/08/13 05:26 PM
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HairyKnuckles Offline
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An alternative theory was presented by Vincent Teresa, the Boston informant, back in 1972. He said that the shooters were Boston based hitman Jackie "Mad Dog" Nazarian and a Brooklyn guy identified only as "The Syrian". Teresa also said that Nicky Bianco identified Anastasia to the shooters by pointing a rolled up newspaper at Anastasia´s direction when the shooters entered the barbershop.


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Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752275
12/08/13 05:32 PM
12/08/13 05:32 PM
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manchester uk
domwoods74 Offline OP
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Yeah I've read that theory aswel pal

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752278
12/08/13 05:46 PM
12/08/13 05:46 PM
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There has and always will be speculation on who the shooters were. One thing is clear from later defectors in the Gambino crime family, that the shooters were in house, and that the consigliere to the Gambino crime family at the time Joe Biondo gave out the contract. Most say that he had the Armone brothers do it, but Joe Armone was in lockup at the time, with the possibility of Stefano as being one of the shooters, as he was still out on the streets.


"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752281
12/08/13 05:52 PM
12/08/13 05:52 PM
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Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
domwoods74 Offline OP
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That is what I heard , joe piney was supposed to be on board but he was in prison so they recruited Steven armone in his place

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752326
12/08/13 10:08 PM
12/08/13 10:08 PM
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littlemango Offline
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Didn't they later find Biondo's fingerprint on the getaway car?

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752344
12/09/13 03:44 AM
12/09/13 03:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
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Buffalo,New York
frankg2469 Offline
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The Armone Crew theory is far more solid than any of the previous ones.Most mob historians will agree that somewhere around 75% of everything Vinnie Teresa ever "revealed" is total BS.There are many problems with the Gallo/Persico/Rent-A-Profaci story as well.For starters,the main guys behind the hit were Vito Genovese and Carlo Gambino----there is no evidence that Joe Profaci was part of the plot or was even in favor of it.Neither man was particularly tight with Joe Profaci and each had access to numerous "work" crews of their own.Also,the eyewitness' descriptions of the shooters is more in line with Grammauta and Wittenberg than any Gallo crew member---the estimated age of the shooters,in particular.Even though the shooters tried to disguise themselves,the shop manicurist got a pretty good look at them.In addition to all of that,while there have been a few notable exceptions,most major hits within a Cosa Nostra Family are carried out by other members of the same organization----another nod to the Armone Crew and the nominal supervisor of that crew Joe Biondo.

Last edited by frankg2469; 12/09/13 03:48 AM.

"A mook---what's a mook ?" Johnny Boy Civello
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: frankg2469] #752345
12/09/13 04:20 AM
12/09/13 04:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418
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HairyKnuckles Offline
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Agreed. Capeci´s "scoop" is most likely the theory closest to the truth. It´s interesting to see that after the Anastasia murder, the underboss and the consigliere spots were occupied by members of that Lower East Side crew, involved with the murder. Biondo, a former leader of the crew, was made underboss and Joe Riccobono, the leader of the same crew at that time, was made consigliere. Steve Armone, who according to Capeci´s "scoop" supervised the shooters, was made the new leader of the crew. So they were all promoted to key positions within the Gambino family. Steve Grammauta, the main shooter, was a cousin of the Armones, btw.

"Manicurist Jean Wineberger said that the primary shooter was about 40 years old, 5 10 to 5 11, on the slim side, 175 to 180 lbs. He had blondish hair with a pompadour, fair complexion, and was right-handed. The second shooter, she said, was about 45 years old, 5 7, stocky build, medium complexion, and may have been Italian or Jewish."


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Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: HairyKnuckles] #752346
12/09/13 04:29 AM
12/09/13 04:29 AM
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stern49 Offline
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I agree with Knuckz. Capeci does seem to have great info that's trustworthy.

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752349
12/09/13 04:46 AM
12/09/13 04:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
domwoods74 Offline OP
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I must admit u can pretty much take it to the bank if it comes out of capeci's mouth . Cheers guys

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: frankg2469] #752358
12/09/13 07:31 AM
12/09/13 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: frankg2469
For starters,the main guys behind the hit were Vito Genovese and Carlo Gambino


What about Santo Trafficante?


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: Toodoped] #752518
12/09/13 10:32 PM
12/09/13 10:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 376
In a wide open city
Tony_Pro Offline
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I doubt that a man of Trafficante's smarts would been staying in that hotel if he knew there was a major hit going down the next day in the hotel lobby. Coincidence.

I've read somewhere that "Trigger Mike" Coppola was Anastasia's driver that day, he suddenly disappeared just before the two shooters came through the door.


This life of ours, this is a wonderful life. If you can get through life like this, hey, thats great. But it's very, very unpredictable. There are so many ways you can screw it up.-Paul Castellano (he would know)

"I'm not talking about Italians, I'm talking about criminals."-Joe Valachi
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752519
12/09/13 10:45 PM
12/09/13 10:45 PM
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Snakes Offline
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It was *Anthony* Coppola. Mike Coppola was a Genovese family capo at that time.


"Snakes... Snakes... I don't know no Snakes."
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752535
12/10/13 02:05 AM
12/10/13 02:05 AM
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mulberry Offline
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I doubt Traficante had any say about what happened in Nyc

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: Tony_Pro] #752542
12/10/13 04:33 AM
12/10/13 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tony_Pro
I doubt that a man of Trafficante's smarts would been staying in that hotel if he knew there was a major hit going down the next day in the hotel lobby. Coincidence.


Yes,it sounds like a coincidence but there was a rumour that Albert wanted to muscle in Santo's gambling operations in Cuba.Dont know if that's true...


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: frankg2469] #752553
12/10/13 06:46 AM
12/10/13 06:46 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,556
Sonny_Black Offline
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Originally Posted By: frankg2469
The Armone Crew theory is far more solid than any of the previous ones.Most mob historians will agree that somewhere around 75% of everything Vinnie Teresa ever "revealed" is total BS.There are many problems with the Gallo/Persico/Rent-A-Profaci story as well.For starters,the main guys behind the hit were Vito Genovese and Carlo Gambino----there is no evidence that Joe Profaci was part of the plot or was even in favor of it.Neither man was particularly tight with Joe Profaci and each had access to numerous "work" crews of their own.Also,the eyewitness' descriptions of the shooters is more in line with Grammauta and Wittenberg than any Gallo crew member---the estimated age of the shooters,in particular.Even though the shooters tried to disguise themselves,the shop manicurist got a pretty good look at them.In addition to all of that,while there have been a few notable exceptions,most major hits within a Cosa Nostra Family are carried out by other members of the same organization----another nod to the Armone Crew and the nominal supervisor of that crew Joe Biondo.


Well said, I agree 100%.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752556
12/10/13 07:21 AM
12/10/13 07:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,278
MI
Lilo Offline
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In "Havana Nocturne", the author T.J. English very strongly implies that it was Lansky, not Trafficante, who was most threatened by Anastasia's moves into Cuba and Lansky who had the most to gain by Anastasia's departure from our planet.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752636
12/10/13 02:14 PM
12/10/13 02:14 PM
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Joerusso Offline
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It wasnt only Far vinny teresa that mentioned it Mad Dog Nazzarene. It was also mentioned by Joe Barboza. You have to remember Ray Sr was really close with Ny I think he even was a member as well. During the Colombo wars he sent Joe Russo, Nicky Bianco, Mad Dog Nazzarene, Pop Werner Sonny Boy Rizzo BoBo Marrapese, Manacchio and many more to Old man Profaci's aid and even mentioned he will send as much as the need. Thats where Russo and Bianco became close like brothers and continued that relationship until the family takeover in the late 80's and the became Boss and Consgliere


raymond l.s.patrairca sr to u.s. state committee- " if i didnt have my case coming up ill to come back in here with two gentlemen and when this is over with and really lay down the law, yous guys been giving me nothing but alot of hookwhick and i wish i wasnt on trial and have this case and really tell the united states whats going on "
Jerry Anguilo on wartime with winter hill - " If we got to war we got Joe Russo and the maverick boys so we have nothing to worry about they can go to vietnam and come back untouched "
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: Lilo] #752641
12/10/13 02:30 PM
12/10/13 02:30 PM
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Snakes Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lilo
In "Havana Nocturne", the author T.J. English very strongly implies that it was Lansky, not Trafficante, who was most threatened by Anastasia's moves into Cuba and Lansky who had the most to gain by Anastasia's departure from our planet.


I haven't read it, but I wouldn't think Lansky had enough pull at that point to kill a boss - if he ever did.


"Snakes... Snakes... I don't know no Snakes."
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: Snakes] #752645
12/10/13 02:38 PM
12/10/13 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Snakes
Originally Posted By: Lilo
In "Havana Nocturne", the author T.J. English very strongly implies that it was Lansky, not Trafficante, who was most threatened by Anastasia's moves into Cuba and Lansky who had the most to gain by Anastasia's departure from our planet.


I haven't read it, but I wouldn't think Lansky had enough pull at that point to kill a boss - if he ever did.


Especialy a cosa nostra boss...


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor

“Behind every great fortune, there is a crime!”

What's the diference between the Government and the Mafia?

-One of them is organized!
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: Lilo] #752674
12/10/13 03:48 PM
12/10/13 03:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 486
LittleMan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lilo
In "Havana Nocturne", the author T.J. English very strongly implies that it was Lansky, not Trafficante, who was most threatened by Anastasia's moves into Cuba and Lansky who had the most to gain by Anastasia's departure from our planet.


I read this book, too, and they made a convincing argument. It wasn't Lansky's idea as Genovese and Gambino already had already hatched their plot. But I'm sure they heard of Anastasia's trip to Havana and his intentions on muscling in on Lansky. And when they got his approval, then Albert was history.

I understand that the majority opinion is that Lansky wasn't involved, but I can't overlook the battle in Havana and the timing of Anastasia's death.


You shit-kicking, stinky, horse-manure-smelling motherfucker you! If you ever get out of line over there again, I'll smash your fucking head so hard you won't be able to get that cowboy hat on. You hear me? Fucking hick. -Nicky (Casino)
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752689
12/10/13 04:11 PM
12/10/13 04:11 PM
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Snakes Offline
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I don't think that Genovese or Gambino would care if Anastasia muscled in on Lansky - neither one was allied with him and they would not favor a Jew over an Italian. If Anastasia was trying to muscle in on Lansky casinos which held a Genovese interest, that would be another matter altogether.


"Snakes... Snakes... I don't know no Snakes."
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #752693
12/10/13 04:14 PM
12/10/13 04:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
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Snakes Offline
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What I should have said is that I don't think Lansky had any stock in casinos which weren't also partly shared by the Genovese crime family. Now this would be a problem if Anastasia was trying to muscle in on them but in my opinion, the more plausible scenario is that Anastasia wanted to have his own casinos in Havana and Genovese was not willing to share the wealth. Gambino readily assented to the plot because he then take over the family.

Edit: Just double-checked some sources and this is indeed close to what actually happened. Whether or not he was assassinated specifically for this, I do not know.

Last edited by Snakes; 12/10/13 04:17 PM.

"Snakes... Snakes... I don't know no Snakes."
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: Snakes] #752782
12/10/13 10:05 PM
12/10/13 10:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
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In a wide open city
Tony_Pro Offline
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Originally Posted By: Snakes
It was *Anthony* Coppola. Mike Coppola was a Genovese family capo at that time.


That was it, thanks for the correction


This life of ours, this is a wonderful life. If you can get through life like this, hey, thats great. But it's very, very unpredictable. There are so many ways you can screw it up.-Paul Castellano (he would know)

"I'm not talking about Italians, I'm talking about criminals."-Joe Valachi
Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #758825
01/15/14 04:44 PM
01/15/14 04:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418
Secret location (WITSEC)
HairyKnuckles Offline
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It´s possible that one of the shooters was Joe N. Gallo, a member of that Lower East Side crew that planned the murder, and who in the late 1960s became the consigliere. According to a story I just heard (and I have no reason to suspect the story´s credibility), Gallo was very much involved with the Anastasia murder. The entire Gambino Family was in line against Anastasia with one or two guys (Rava and Robilotto) who might be a problem. But in the end, they weren't. All the planning came from Lower East Side, near 11th to 14th street. The Genovese and Gambino people were using clubs there to meet, so they would not be spotted all around the city. Carmine Persico and Joe Yacovelli were around too. All the Families were along. Joe Bonnano says in his book he was not involved, maybe he was deceived by his own captains or did not want to say he knew. He could have been indicted for murder if he said in his books that he knew Anastasia was going to be killed.

In days leading up to Anastasia´s hit, hit squads were in cars going around to spots where they would try to kill him. One such squad was in that barbershop day before the shooting. If Anastasia was there that day, that team would have killed him. Next day, the same were sent to another spot. All squads were rotated, so they would not be identified by people seeing them in same place over and over. So that day, when Anastasia was hit, Joe N. Gallo and his guys were at the barbershop. If Anastasia did not go to his regular places, whoever caught him next day would have gotten him.



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Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #758845
01/15/14 05:42 PM
01/15/14 05:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
domwoods74 Offline OP
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Very interesting theory hairy , if he wasn't a shooter , he could well have been a back up

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #758866
01/15/14 07:59 PM
01/15/14 07:59 PM
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fergie Offline
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Richard Kuklinski may well have been involved...:-)

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: HairyKnuckles] #758894
01/16/14 12:25 AM
01/16/14 12:25 AM
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great assesment HAIRY

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #758898
01/16/14 01:25 AM
01/16/14 01:25 AM
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Salvie84 Offline
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Who was behind that hit? I always thought Carlo Gambino, but I was watching a doc on the Genovese family which stated it was Vito Genovese. According to the doc he took out both Scalise and Anastasia. I always thought Anastasia took out Scalise and in turn Carlo engineered Anastasia's demise for the transgression (and probably because he was trigger happy and unpredictable). Is it possible Genovese was that crafty to set Albert up for the murder of Scalise or is that doc's info wrong?

Re: Anastasia shooters [Re: domwoods74] #758903
01/16/14 03:20 AM
01/16/14 03:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
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manchester uk
domwoods74 Offline OP
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I'm sure Steven grammauta is still alive he would be like 98 , can anyone confirm this ??

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