I hear you Ville, and as I said, it is my "contention." I don't completely take what Martorano says as gospel. I do NOT believe that he had more power than Raymond Patriarca Sr., as Patriarca had a much larger network of criminals at his disposal as well as support from many other mafia bosses. If Patriarca saw a need to whack Whitey...he wouldn't have hesitated. From the Angiulo bust and through the 1990's, LCN was a mess in New England, so I could see where Whitey's clout increased. Patriarca died in 1984, and when he was in charge, Providence always had the stronger faction and Patriarca's crimes extended all the way to Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut. You are correct, my knowledge of the Irish and Winter Hill isn't as well versed...but there has always been two schools of thought in the reality of Whitey's Winter Hill Gang and how much power they really had...some people have contended his power was throughout Southie and others contend it was more expansive. I will say that I truly believe that the Irish in Boston were stronger than anywhere in the country. Mickey Spillane in NY may have rivaled Whitey in terms of wealth and power for a 20 year period, but only because he had the full support of Fat Tony Salerno...until the Javitt Center was built and Spillane refused to share with the Italians.

Ville I feel your a whitey fan boy,this guy is a loser that pumped dope in his own backyard the only reason be was ever successful is because he was ratted out his competition.. think about it he had the FBI on his side,,you actually think he had more pull than Anguilo or zannino no fucking way...

Whitey bulged a crime lord??? Not at all the papers and news glorify him to sell papers and get ratings... Yes he made tons of money and had a solid crew of killers but he was no real mobster he was an informant that snitched on everyone,,think about for crist sakes he was a rat....

Joe Massino was a crime boss and he snitched. Doesnt change the fact he was a mobster, genius.

That has been my contention...that if it wasn't for a "high profile" corruption case against John Connolly and company, the media wouldn't have been as fascinated with the Bulger story as they have been. I may be wrong because my knowledge of the Winter Hill Gang is average at best, the "few" books I've read have left me with "mixed reviews" on how strong Whitey truly was. He played both sides of the fence long enough not to be bothered by the Feds and was allowed to earn, but in no way, shape or form would I ever believe he was stronger than Raymond Patriarca Sr.

I'm from Ohio originally, and Danny Greene was the big Irishman in Cleveland and he made a lot of money running the North Collinwood neighborhood rackets in Cleveland and through the International Longshoremen's Union. He was a tough son of a bitch and tried to take on the Cleveland mafia...until that car full of explosives pulled up next to his green Cadillac..once he came out of the dentist's office, BOOM! My point is that if Patriarca wanted him dead or had a need to kill him, he would have been dead. If Whitey waged an all out war against the Mafia, he would have lost...outgunned, outmanned, pure and simple. But Whitey worked with the Italians in "some capacity" which worked to his advantage.

Im a fan boy Mr. Meffa, whatever the fuck that is? Your the the fanboy pal. Yea i mentioned stuff in a book in my post, but everything you know is from a book. You have no clue about the real shit. Yes whitey is a rat, got no respect for the guy, but there's no denying he was a criminal genius. So many other top criminals have done the samething he did. But yes he was most powerful during his reign, even more than any Italian. Why did Frank Salemme, the boss of the Italians team up with Whitey and Stevie. Cause he knew where the power was and he was and old friend of stevie too. You meffa had no idea about the past and the scope of the whole set up around here. JCB, Ray Srs time and whiteys were 2 different riegns of power. Buddy Mclean was the Irish power and was pretty much seen as an equal to Ray Sr and Ray loved and repsected him more than the Italians up here. His reputation and respect went as far as New York. If all thr Irish crews back then consolidated they would have wiped the Italians out. would have had much more man power and New York would never have been able to stop that. Winter Hill wasn't just Irish, there were Italians and portugués. And they were far more killers then the Italians. Buddy Mclean and Howie Winter once took a ride down federal hill to settle a beef and when the old man and Buddy greeted eachother, Ray said i thought i was gonna see a 100 paddy running down the hill with carbines. And thats a true story. And meffa yea anguilo was powerful, but was no where as respected as Buddy Mclean and Howie Winter who were really more powerful. Anguilo was getting the shit kicked out himself when Buddy was making his reputation and forming the original winter hill gang. And a side note Howie Querer was one of the most respected mobsters in New England during his the top Italian bosses, Russel Bufalino being one of them. Meffa ask around bud and try to know some actual real life shit, cause kid u have never experienced this kind of life, and its a good thing u havent, but dont be a smart mouth when shooting off.

That side not was supposed to say Howie Winter was one of the most repescted mobsters in New England by the top bosses. Russel Bufalino being one of his dear friends.

Pariarca true friend was Howie Winter Ray had all the respect in the world for him. they were friends I don't believe he ever bothered with Whitey He would deal with Howie. I would like to note anybody could be a tough guy with 30 years of fbi protection. Whitey and Stevie are Rats accept it. You are not a tough guy if you use the feds to fight your battles and get rid of your enemies.

I really can't see Whitey being more powerful than Ray Sr., it just doesn't add up for Whitey when you consider the countless resources Patriarca had at his disposal, with many capos and soldiers under him who also had theyr own contacts and resources and whatnot. Bulger had a lot of capable guys too, but Ray had a seat on the Commission. His primary power was the fact he could send the feds knockin on your door. Not that I'm intentionally agreeing with them two other clowns its just facts

We actually agree on something. Thanks for calling me a clown instead of an asshole.

I hear what you are saying Ville about Salemme working "with" Whitey, but let's face the facts...When Patriarca died in 1984 the Family had considerable internal trouble with the Providence and Boston factions and once Angiulo went to prison in 1986, a power struggle occurred. Even when Salemme took over, his reign was not a peaceful one and was marked with that "film crew" sting operation that he got caught up in. He was close to Steven Flemmi for years so of course he forged an alliance with Bulger and company. Russo should have been made boss, but he wasn't. It wasn't until Baby Shacks took over that the Patriarca Family "regained" their dominance in the rackets, and by that time, Whitey was on the run.

But to say that Bulger had more control than the Italians is way off based on the facts. Did he make a boat load of money, sure...but the Mafia had a much larger Army than Whitey's guys and if the old man Patriarca "saw a need or had his power threatened" by Whitey Bulger, Whitey would have been buried in cement shoes. Whitey was in his prime once Patriarca died and he took advantage of the internal problems the mafia was having, but his control was NOT as expansive as the Italians, never was, never will be.

Mattarese brothers joseph and paul are the made guys heard the where big players

Never said whitey was more powerful than Ray Sr. Like i said before thats 2 different periods of power. During Rays time, Whitey wasnt even a factor, Buddy and Howie were the ones who dealt with Ray Sr. During Whiteys time he was the most powerful, the North End was in shambles during whiteys reign. Obviously Ray had a farther reach during his time cause thats when the Italians had the political clout, which the Irish in Boston also had. Boston isnt New York, the Italians did not rule with an iron fist up here. Take the time Howie and Winter Hill beat Castucci for money on bets and Castucci called in the Gambinos to intervene and get the money back. But the Hill told the Gambinos to Go fuck themselves, they arent getting the money and the Gambinos didnt do a thing about it. The Hill told them to come by Marshal Motors if they wanted their money. My main point is Whitey wasnt a factor when Raya Sr was in power and the Hill was just as big as the Italians at times.

And your going on book facts and common knowledge of the Italians. Im going on how it really was around here, told by the people actually involved.

Ville your obviously from somerville I understand what your saying but u gutta here what I'm saying to..whitey was powerful but powerful because of the feds

Who are the big players in east boston now anyone now??

ray sr had whole crews of guys for his 30yrs reighn in worcester springfield northern ct lower ct revere eastie Brockton the whole state of rhode island. who the hell thinks whitey had that power. he call for you you drove a hour down to federal hill its documented in all the fbi papers, whitey was scared they wack him that's why he teamed with the fbi. pretty sure john martorano dad was a made guy. larry b said the hill is us. remember the bookies got caught on tape saying steve n whitey could nt hold vinny the animals jock strap. Vinnie would go to work for you. shit there picture of all the mob guys, a young vinny strolling threw whitey garage in 1980.

I really thing whitey would have jumped at being made if he ws Italian. he wore the pinky ring dressed the part. he was friends anuff with jr russo to tem he up with winter hill. I think whitey highly respected the mafia. did he ever say anything bad about them, we now flemmi had a chip against them cause they beat him up in the 60tys. look at all the hits they did for the mafia.

Spucky runs revere, Charlie Lightbody is no joke. Bobby C has eastie and fat boy is holding Medford warm until Carmen decides what to do.

So where do BA and GG fall in this?

Anybody see the first half of 60 minutes last night? Interviewed the fed that slapped the cuffs on Whitey. When he told him to put his hands up and get on his knees Whitey threw em up but responded with "I ain't getting down on my fuckin knees." The look on his face in the arrest photo is priceless, with his white brimmed hat on. A lady standing off to the side said to the agent "That old man has dimensia he may not know what your saying" or something like that. Now the fed says he's thinking here's some crazy old man telling me he's Bulger next he's gonna tell me he's Elvis but Whitey said "Don't listen to her she's fuckin crazy, I'm James Bulger". The agent told 60 mi that Whitey had told some of the feds handling his arrest/booking process that after about 15 years on the run he began finding it difficult to keep up his cunning criminal mindset after so many years blending in with society and acting like a regular senior citizen. 20-30 or so years ago the ruse the feds used to lure Bulger down to the parking garage where they took him into custody would never have fooled him and he would immediately have known something was up, Bulger says.
Besides that one last tiny little mistake (getting caught),I have to say in terms of criminal genius, Bulger was it.

Idk about that. In red Shea's book he mentions how Whitey constantly belittled the north end and told red the only one he respected was Larry Zannino.

Maybe I'm too used to stereotypes, but I think a real crime boss doesn't do hits himself after he has become boss. Bulger continued to kill people himself until the end. He was good at protecting himself by the corrupt FBI though.

As pmac stated, when Ray, Sr. was sitting in Coin-O-Matic on Atwells Ave., he ran ALL of New England...period. Anyone says or thinks otherwise is wrong. Once Ray Sr. died, power began to shift/fade away from the Patriarca Family. No way Whitey was more powerfull that Ray Sr. and his Family. My 2 cents.

Howie Winter used to pay a street tax to Gerry Angiulo and Providence of 20,000 weekly. That's alot of money and says all there is to say about the relative power during his and Ray Sr's reigns.

Also, didn't Gerry Angiulo use dirty cops to set up his rivals for arrest? That's ratting too.

Howie did not pay 20gs weekly. Thats just not true, they shared some rackets and divided it up between the 2 groups.

Well Ville said he's referring to Whitey's and Ray Sr.'s power in terms of two different periods of time: Ray's day, and Whitey's day. Like Ville said and is true while Ray Patriarca Sr. ruled New England with an iron fist Whitey,though still relatively well known in both circles,was still making his bones earning his reputation under Howie. Still even comparing the two, Ray Patriarca held more power during his reign at the top than Whitey did during his own. That's my opinion but Im pretty sure its a fact

It is a fact, Anguilo was under Ray and Anguilo made millions. Ray had the power to contact the Genovese family as well. Not to mention had much more men at his disposal than Whitey...

Was this seriously a question? Lol

A couple different sources contradict that.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jsIEDH_...ter&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=RlKzNMT...ter&f=false

Of course you are a local boy and I'm from Philadelphia so I don't have personal knowledge. But I've seen this said before and from more than just these two sources. Just raising the possibility.

Thats my whole logic on this discussion, book and internet facts. Thats what everyone is giving on here, im trying to fill you guys in on how it really was around here. Book facts dont mean shit in my eyes. I could tell you guys things that never appear in books, but im not gonna go there. Little fact about Whitey, he was a bully towards women, Howie never liked him,personally, he felt you couldnt joke with Whitey, took shit way to serious. He use to wash the cars at Marshal Motors when he first came around Somerville. And you could say Joe Macdonald started the original Winter Hill crew, with Buddy Mclean coming up under Joe, and Howie under Buddy. Sal Sperlinga dealt with the Italians alot of the time when issuses came up.