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What was Frank Pentangelli's position? #720703
06/16/13 08:09 PM
06/16/13 08:09 PM
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Posts: 151
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Mr_Willie_Cicci Offline OP
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Mr_Willie_Cicci  Offline OP
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Given the odd hierachy of the Family in Part II, I have to wonder, was it like any of the following:

Michael
BOSS

Tom
CONSIGLIERE

Frank Pentangelli
UNDERBOSS/ACTING BOSS

Al Neri
CAPO

Rocco Lampone
CAPO

Willi Cicci
CAPO

Fredo Corleone
CAPO

Or:

Michael Corleone
BOSS

Tom
CONSIGLIERE

Frank Pentangelli
CAPO/Underboss (New York division)

Al Neri
CAPO/Underboss (Nevada division)

Rocco Lampone
Soldier

Willi Cicci
Soldier

Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #720706
06/16/13 09:24 PM
06/16/13 09:24 PM
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Posts: 1,371
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Lou_Para Offline
Underboss
Lou_Para  Offline
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Posts: 1,371
Good question. The scene where Frankie tells Mike that I want to be able to run my Family without you on my back",and Mike responds,"Your Family is still called Corleone,and you'll run it like a Corleone" would seem to imply that Five Angels was an extremely high ranking Capo at the very least.Perhaps even the Street Boss of New York.

Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Lou_Para] #720743
06/17/13 09:15 AM
06/17/13 09:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
I think he was the street boss in New York. Hee ran the old olive oil business. Definitely a capo. Rocco was also a capo and Neri was a capo, but informally was higher up in the pecking order. Tom was consigliere.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #720771
06/17/13 11:13 AM
06/17/13 11:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
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olivant Offline
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Texas
I think all of ya'll are wrong. The novel states that "... and Clemenza had his own family. Rocco Lampone was the Corleone caporegime." That being so, Clemenza's "own family" was the Corleone family. It seems unlikely that once Clemenza died that Michael took back the family. No. Frankie was the Don.

Last edited by olivant; 06/17/13 11:15 AM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #720785
06/17/13 12:04 PM
06/17/13 12:04 PM
Joined: May 2010
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Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
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Frankie was still subordinate to Michael. Fact. I agree that he was basically an acting boss/street boss. Willie Cicci, although being listed as only a soldier was more than likely acting as a caporegime for Pentangeli in New York.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Sonny_Black] #720806
06/17/13 02:10 PM
06/17/13 02:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline
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Danito  Offline
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Berlin, Germany
Original geschrieben von: Sonny_Black
Frankie was still subordinate to Michael. Fact.

Oh, now you convinced me. wink

We don't see in any way that he was subordinate to Michael. Michael just treats him that way. He has to stand in line when he wants to talk to him, he gives him orders, etc.
As we know, the Frankie character was a quick fix because Castellano refused to play the original Clemenza character, a subordinate to Vito and perhaps Michael. So we must see Frankie as some kind of variation of Clemenza who inherited the New York empire of the Corleones. Michael let him do his own stuff but he demanded total loyalty and even obedience, even though there was no more hierarchical structure to support that authority.

Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #720810
06/17/13 02:45 PM
06/17/13 02:45 PM
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Mastronardo Offline
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Mastronardo  Offline
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Pentangeli took over Clemenza's crew, meaning he was a capo.

Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Danito] #720812
06/17/13 03:06 PM
06/17/13 03:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Texas
Originally Posted By: Danito

So we must see Frankie as some kind of variation of Clemenza who inherited the New York empire of the Corleones. Michael let him do his own stuff but he demanded total loyalty and even obedience, even though there was no more hierarchical structure to support that authority.


Well put. As I posted above, the novel states that Clemenza had his own family. When he died, who took its reins? Well, the only film link are Michael's statements to Frankie: "CLEMENZA promised the Rosato brothers three territories in the Bronx after he died. You took over, and you didn't give it to them."

"I was very happy that this house never went to strangers -- first CLEMENZA took it over, now you."

And I almost forgot about this:

PENTANGELI" I -- I -- I never know no Godfather.I got my own family, SENATOR.


Last edited by olivant; 06/17/13 03:13 PM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Danito] #720817
06/17/13 03:30 PM
06/17/13 03:30 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
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Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted By: Danito
We don't see in any way that he was subordinate to Michael. Michael just treats him that way.


Are you sure you've seen the movie, because taken aside a drunk Frankie at Anthony's communion celebration, he acts subordinate to Michael in about every way. Michael ordered Frankie to make peace with the Rosatos, because he was doing important business with Hyman Roth and didn't want it disturbed, and Frankie followed those orders, even though he hated the Rosatos and wanted to eliminate them.

Originally Posted By: Danito
Michael let him do his own stuff but he demanded total loyalty and even obedience, even though there was no more hierarchical structure to support that authority.


There was still an official hierarchy, confirmed by the chart that was shown at the Senate hearings. Those are the facts presented by the film. As to whether the chart was accurate or not is mere speculation and depends on your own imagination, also known as fanfiction.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #720826
06/17/13 05:48 PM
06/17/13 05:48 PM
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Mr_Willie_Cicci Offline OP
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Could Frankie have been a "front boss"?
In the old days, some Bosses used a guy to act as "Boss", like, to play the role of Boss and even be treated as such, to take the heat off the real Boss.

Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #720828
06/17/13 06:00 PM
06/17/13 06:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
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olivant Offline
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Texas
Originally Posted By: Mr_Willie_Cicci
Could Frankie have been a "front boss"?
In the old days, some Bosses used a guy to act as "Boss", like, to play the role of Boss and even be treated as such, to take the heat off the real Boss.


Tony Accardo ruled the Outfit in Chcago for a long time while for some of that time Sam Giancana was the front boss. But everyone knew who was the real boss. So, could Frankie have been a boss in that sense? Yes. Still, as I posted above, at the Senate hearing, Frankie testifies that he had his own family.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: olivant] #720850
06/17/13 09:25 PM
06/17/13 09:25 PM
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Mr_Willie_Cicci Offline OP
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Mr_Willie_Cicci  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: olivant
Originally Posted By: Mr_Willie_Cicci
Could Frankie have been a "front boss"?
In the old days, some Bosses used a guy to act as "Boss", like, to play the role of Boss and even be treated as such, to take the heat off the real Boss.


Tony Accardo ruled the Outfit in Chcago for a long time while for some of that time Sam Giancana was the front boss. But everyone knew who was the real boss. So, could Frankie have been a boss in that sense? Yes. Still, as I posted above, at the Senate hearing, Frankie testifies that he had his own family.


I think when he says "I have my own family", he's talking about his blood family. Not a Mafia family.

Sort of like how in real life when John Gotti was asked if he was the boss of the Gambino Crime Family, he replied he was a member of the Gotti family and his wife was the boss.



Last edited by Mr_Willie_Cicci; 06/17/13 09:26 PM.
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #721006
06/18/13 04:27 PM
06/18/13 04:27 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
Underboss
Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
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Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted By: Mr_Willie_Cicci
Could Frankie have been a "front boss"?
In the old days, some Bosses used a guy to act as "Boss", like, to play the role of Boss and even be treated as such, to take the heat off the real Boss.


He was more an acting boss, although Michael may have viewed him as only a front boss.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #721007
06/18/13 04:28 PM
06/18/13 04:28 PM
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Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
Underboss
Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Originally Posted By: Mr_Willie_Cicci
Originally Posted By: olivant
Originally Posted By: Mr_Willie_Cicci
Could Frankie have been a "front boss"?
In the old days, some Bosses used a guy to act as "Boss", like, to play the role of Boss and even be treated as such, to take the heat off the real Boss.


Tony Accardo ruled the Outfit in Chcago for a long time while for some of that time Sam Giancana was the front boss. But everyone knew who was the real boss. So, could Frankie have been a boss in that sense? Yes. Still, as I posted above, at the Senate hearing, Frankie testifies that he had his own family.


I think when he says "I have my own family", he's talking about his blood family. Not a Mafia family.


When Frankie made that statement it was obviously because he had just changed his mind about breaking omertà, seeing that his brother was present at the hearing, which could have implied several things.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci] #722904
06/28/13 03:19 AM
06/28/13 03:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Chicago Offline
Underboss
Chicago  Offline
C
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
No way. when Frankie Pentanglia said he had his own Family, he meant that he was the Boss of one of the Mafia Families. The senator didn't care nor was he even talking about anyone's personal Family. They were talking about the Mafia. I think Frankie was great in the Movie. One of my favorite Characters. Frankie Five Angels.

Re: What was Frank Pentangelli's position? [Re: Sonny_Black] #723394
06/30/13 07:30 PM
06/30/13 07:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
Iceman999 Offline
Capo
Iceman999  Offline
Capo
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 341
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: Danito
We don't see in any way that he was subordinate to Michael. Michael just treats him that way.


Are you sure you've seen the movie, because taken aside a drunk Frankie at Anthony's communion celebration, he acts subordinate to Michael in about every way. Michael ordered Frankie to make peace with the Rosatos, because he was doing important business with Hyman Roth and didn't want it disturbed, and Frankie followed those orders, even though he hated the Rosatos and wanted to eliminate them.

Originally Posted By: Danito
Michael let him do his own stuff but he demanded total loyalty and even obedience, even though there was no more hierarchical structure to support that authority.


There was still an official hierarchy, confirmed by the chart that was shown at the Senate hearings. Those are the facts presented by the film. As to whether the chart was accurate or not is mere speculation and depends on your own imagination, also known as fanfiction.


And don't forget the scene where Michel pays Pentangelli an unexpected visit at his home. Clearly, Pentangelli shows him a lot of deference. I mean at the look on his face when his wife tells him Michael is waiting for him in the study. Looks like he's about to shit a brick.


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