According to the novel, Fredo was on Vito's "shitlist".

Why? Because of his bad body guard abilities? Or because of his dandyesk life style in Las Vegas?
In both cases it lets us see Vito in a different light. Not so much as a loving father.
What a monster of a father who can only love you when you fulfil his expectations, especially if it has to do with involvement in criminal actions!

(I even believe that it's Vito's fault that Sonny ended up dead and Michael an unhappy, lonely gangster boss.)

Well...Fredo had been sent out to Nevada not only for his own safety and recovery but to learn the casino business, protect the Family's interest in same and establish a beachhead for further expansion.

Instead he spent too much of his time having threeways with cocktail waitresses and either didn't know or care that Moe Green was evidently skimming. And he also let Moe Green not only verbally but physically humiliate him.

So this was not only bad for the Family's business interests and status but per novel the Don really didn't respect men who put sex before business or engaged in "oddball" sexual escapades. He chided Sonny for letting an adulterous relationship interfere with his judgment.

So Fredo messed up an assignment and managed in his father's eyes to look unmanly while doing so. So by the rules they operated under, Vito had every right to be upset.

Let's not forget that the novel tells us Vito was "notoriously straightlaced in matters of sex," hence his disapproval of Fredo for the threeways.

TB and Lilo, you're both right in terms of Vito's point of view.
However on a meta level, Vito has been described as a loving father. Why would you put your son who is weak and soft, a man who is absolutely not made for being a bodyguard or an entrepeneur into such circumstances?
Vito had certain plans for his sons instead of giving them freedom. They had to fail. Vito had earned so much money, he could have easily let Michael study math.
Instead he let them continue his own criminal life.

Sonny sent Fredo to Vegas, not Vito.

Fredo wanted to be in his father's business to begin with so it was not Vito who forced him into the criminal activity.

And Vito was not a liberal/modern loving father. I think Vito had some basic values, such as responsibility for the family (and friends) comes before individual freedom, self expression, or even before protecting the nation (in case of Michael). He was deeply disappointed when his children went to war for other people, let women /or the appetite for women guide them, let their anger guide them over protecting family and the family image. I think he thought that this was the way to happiness.
At this point however Fredo was clearly ruining the family image in Vegas, with the sexual stuff and getting slapped etc.

Vito had no Mickey Mouse nightclubs for Fredo to run.

Seriously: Making Fredo his bodyguard was another sign that the Don was slippin'. He'd gotten so comfortable with being Numero Uno that he never imagined that he'd need a real bodyguard because he never imagined that anyone would have the nerve to attack him. Fredo as bodyguard is part and parcel of his underestimating Solozzo.

But Fredo was NOT his regular bodyguard. I got the distinct feeling that Fredo was sort of a messenger boy, allowed to hang out at Genco, drive his father around, go pick up his lunch, but never anything important. I thought of him as more of a companion for his father than anything else. He only acted as bodyguard when Paulie the traitor called in sick, apparently because the Tattaglias and Barzini had pegged him correctly as a weak link.

Babe, I think you're right. Remember that Paulie was Vito's driver and, of course, his real bodyguard. I don't think any of the Dons, then or now, traveled with a passle of bodyguards. Barzini only had one bodyguard when he was murdered.

Vito wasn't quite sure what to do with Fredo. So, he allowed him to play the passive role of his bodyguard. That way he kept him close in the hope that Fredo could learn something of the business.

Sorry, I just wanted to see that again.

Vito sumsvery well it up in his dialogue with Michael. He tells Michael he never wanted "this" for him, but instead it was to be Santino who ran the family business. When he mentions Fredo he simply says "Fredo...well he was....." and his voice trails off. He loved Fredo as a son, and allowed him to be a kind of gofer for him, all the time allowing Fredo to think his job was more important than it was e.g. he was allowed to attend the Solozzo meeting, bt it was never discussed with him beforehand. In the novel Vito was outraged at Fredo's sexual conduct in Vegas, but it appears he approved of sending him away during the NY wars.

DT, I agree completely with your analysis. I'll add that Vito wasn't quite sure about what to do with Fredo. However, I think this is interesting. As you point out, he thought Fredo's sexual cavorting was degeneracy. However, he was delighted to find out that Fredo had a genius for running a hotel. That was a surprise to him. Yet, he also referred to Fredo (in that capacity) as a cook. He was obviously disappointed.

Agreed, Oli. Even from his sick bed when Fredo anounced he was going to "learn the casino business," Vito didn't seem to be impressed, but rather happy that Sonny had the smarts to get him out of harm's way.

That was a really smart move on Sonny's part. Fredo, suffering from a nervous breakdown and not too smart in the first place, would have been a sitting duck for the Five Families--either as a murder victim or hostage. By sending him to Vegas under the protection of a neutral family, Sonny made sure his brother'd be safe. He got something useful to do. And, by bankrolling Moe Green's casino in return, he established a stake in Vegas for the family that Michael redeemed later.

Fredo almost messed up the getting a foothold in Vegas when he took sides with Moe Green against Michael when Michael told Moe he wanted to buy him out.

True enough, dt. But I always had the impression that Moe would have said no even if Fredo weren't present. I don't think Fredo was the c***k in Michael's armor as Sonny was in Vito's at the Solozzo meeting.

Of course. Moe had already talked to Barzini.

Moe Greene meeting question The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man
Vito's only family value was there is no hint Vito had goumars

Wonder what “ethical relativist” Vito would do if non-Sicilian Tom had goumars?

I bet! Vito's ”Who says you can't live your live exactly as you want to live it?" applies to husbands only not wives

Excuse me! Vito It is not in "good family men's" “nature to philander.” nor beat up their wives

I think it is fleshed out in the book Vito stated Carmela did not give Vito any reason for Vito to beat Carmela up Nice!

Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino, Carlo and Fredo Thanks! Pop

Fredo was a single man [not a family man] with no boundary! to his “sexual excess”

If Fredo “apprenticing as a hotel manager” was “unmanly” Vito would turn over in his grave that Fredo was a pimp, operating brothels

What opportunities were given for Fredo to “being involved with the family business”?
Did anyone bother to mentor Fredo? Did anyone even bother at all with Fredo let alone....even after “having a nervous breakdown”

Sure thing Turnbull “possibly even for failing to prevent Vito from being shot and having a nervous breakdown afterward” is not of Corleone calibre
Was Fredo bodyguard material though How was Fredo licensed to carry a gun?!

Nobody in the family did anything to nurture Fredo the “unmanly” 'different' Corleone unless we count Sonny packing Fredo off to learn the casino business, which made Fredo latch on to Moe Greene “we are good friends” even after Moe slapped Fredo around in public including Fredo's angry outburst at Michael and later Fredo latched on Roth / Ola because Fredo was treated as the family pariah, at every turn

Poor Fredo copped it from everyone – Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene, Deanna

It seems that Vito did not cheat on his wife, did not beat his wife, did not spank his children, spent time with his family. What you're complaining about is Vito not interfering in others' lives. It's unfortunately outside of the confines of the book, but it's obvious that by the time of the wedding Vito had decided that Carlo was a bad choice for a husband. We don't have the text regarding their courtship, but it's inconceivable to me that Vito didn't signal his disapproval to Connie. Once she made her choice, he treated her like an adult, and didn't interfere.

All children can blame their parents. It's a perk.

The John Cazale Fredo is very strong dramatically. It's completely dissonant from the Fredo of the book, though. He's a Mafia member in good standing, both Sonny and Michael remark on his toughness. What he lacks I think Puzo calls "personal force." He collapses because his ego requires Vito's approval, while Sonny and Michael (and Connie?) don't need that.

It been said that the sons represent the parts of human nature: Sonny is ruled by emotion or passion, Michael by intellect, and Fredo by the physical. I think that's why Puzo threw the cooking thing in there, to show that's Fredo's key is the satisfaction of his physical needs.

Vito's ”Who says you can't live your live exactly as you want to live it?" no doubt applies to husbands only not wives

I reckon it is not complaining or blaming their parents It is not interfering, it is parental guidance

How did he spend time with his family? Every scene Vito was seen with them was business apart from Connie's wedding

Sonny's philandering, Connie's bad choice of husband, Carlo's wife beating, Fredo's sexual excess, Moe slapping him around all went undisciplined

If Sonny was alive he would have become the Don even though Vito knew he would be a bad Don
Fredo was left rudderless

The only child who got guidance was Michael that too to make the Corleones top Mafia family again, leaving him a murderous legacy apart from the loving father mentioning his happiness and his son

Vito's action, inaction and slip ups adversely affected every one of his children and his son-in-law including violent deaths

Can I but in Ladies??....I've been following ur posts..but never say anything cause u girls seem 2 have a better know of about the trilogy than my old ass...that being said..I have read , seen all things Coppola ..but I just wanna say u girls have this shit down 2 a science...Who r u Evita??where do u come from??..and Lana..U seem well respected on the board..I' m very impressed by ur knowledge of all things Corleone..r u guy's my age bracket & what r ur back grounds ..if i may ask...I'm just intrigued ..not hitting on u girls..God , I'm happily married 20+ yrs. ...kudo's 2 both u chicks roundabout brains!!

Pete, years ago in another Forum I opined that none of Vito's kids inherited all of Vito's characteristics. We know that Vito was capable of violence, that he could be sensitive, and that he was quite intelligent. You can argue that Sonny inherited his violence, Fredo his sensitivity, and Michael his intelligence. Of course, the novel explains exceptions to the foregoing; even the films illustrate some exceptions.

It's hard to say Sonny inherited Vito's violence because Vito didn't fly off the handle like Sonny did

It's hard not to feel sorry for Fredo. He didn't inherit any of Vito's characteristics. He was weak,stupid,incompetent, virtually devoid of any street sense,incapable of the most basic strategic ability,loud.flashy,and given to self pity. In a Mafia family ,these are not good character traits. However,had the Corleones stayed in the Olive oil business,and remained legitimate, I bet Fredo would have had the happiest marriage,the most kids,and been one of the best fathers in the family. The traits that made him a bad gangster are ironically what would make him a good person. Vito getting someone like Fredo involved in the family business, no matter how small the role,was one of the most shameful acts that a father could do to a son. Vito had the means to give Fredo the best possible education, and set him up in a legit business that would have made him very comfortable.

You are a great man Mr hoodlum

Many thanks for your kind words and you can butt in any time! Please do especially when you have such nice things! to say Thanks again

Evita and Lana deserve compliments



what was loving father Vito ruled by? fatherly love fatherly guidance fatherly responsibility

Great man hoodlum I also thank you for your kind words

Who r u Evita??where do u come from?? That's for you to find out...!

I wish i could but that would b a hard task given the situation...I'm sure any women that r hardcore into Vito & Famiglia r more than likely attractive ladies..But like I said..I'm happily married over 20 yrs...Don't get me wrong..I'm still young @ heart & horny as a dog 4 Ann-Margaret or whatever adult shit my wife & I watch while drink ever comes around our way.....Peace. Gotta go..Natalie Wood is on TCM...LOL...