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May 27th, 2012
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Mafia's Future #641230
03/22/12 10:18 PM
03/22/12 10:18 PM
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Posts: 48
New York City
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EVL Offline OP
Wiseguy
EVL  Offline OP
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Wiseguy
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New York City
Over on my blog, http://cosa-nostra-news.blogspot.com/, you can see a series of charts that show some trends in global crime outfits, primarily in terms of size, that make LCN seem like a fart in the wind.

As I wrote, "With 1,100 members, 80% of which are tripping over one another in New York and its outer boroughs, the American "La Cosa Nostra," which is the official FBI term for the U.S.-based Mafia, is a mere hill of beans compared with other criminal outfits around the world.

"Just look at this chart... The Italian Comorra has 7,000 members -- but even that is a drop in the bucket when compared with the Russian mob, which has over 300,000 members around the world; the Triads, at 250,000; and the Yakuza, at 86,000.

"Maybe AG Holder was on to something when he consolidated the Fed's focus on O.C. in this country."

You need to scroll down to about the third post... Hope you find it edifying, if not necessarily enjoyable...

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641235
03/22/12 10:50 PM
03/22/12 10:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 422
Tampa and Queens
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Skinny_Vinny Offline
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Tampa and Queens
Nice blog. I love the Galante photo. It's always fun to go to Brooklyn and have a cup of coffee and Italian pastry in front of 205 Knickerbocker Ave.

Sometimes I see Russian Jews around Forest Hills and Rego Park with cryptic tattoos on their arms. Tattoos are forbidden by Jewish law. I figure these tattoos have some kind of significance with Russian Jewish mobsters.

As powerful as the Russian are said to be, it seems like they go to great lengths to avoid violence, because they don't have nearly as many shootings as other ethnic mobs.

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641237
03/22/12 10:55 PM
03/22/12 10:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,086
Bronx, New York
Dapper_Don Offline
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Plus I feel that the Russians are largely involved in White Collar crime like Medicare fraud which is much harder to get busted/draw attention than traditional organized crime rackets like loan sharking, extortion, etc.


Tommy Shots: They want me running the family, don’t they know I have a young wife?
Sal Vitale: (laughs) Tommy, jump in, the water’s fine.


Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641245
03/22/12 11:22 PM
03/22/12 11:22 PM
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Sonny_Black Offline
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Very nice blog and chart! Only, doesn't the numbers given for the Sicilian Mafia fall a little short with only 2,500 members? And I also suspect the numbers given for the Russian Mafia are highly inflated. rolleyes


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641246
03/22/12 11:25 PM
03/22/12 11:25 PM
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icegoodbarbPresident Offline
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The LCN is small potatoes on the world scale but is the most homegrown and imbedded in america

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641255
03/23/12 12:17 AM
03/23/12 12:17 AM
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IvyLeague Offline
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Originally Posted By: EVL
Over on my blog, http://cosa-nostra-news.blogspot.com/, you can see a series of charts that show some trends in global crime outfits, primarily in terms of size, that make LCN seem like a fart in the wind.

As I wrote, "With 1,100 members, 80% of which are tripping over one another in New York and its outer boroughs, the American "La Cosa Nostra," which is the official FBI term for the U.S.-based Mafia, is a mere hill of beans compared with other criminal outfits around the world.

"Just look at this chart... The Italian Comorra has 7,000 members -- but even that is a drop in the bucket when compared with the Russian mob, which has over 300,000 members around the world; the Triads, at 250,000; and the Yakuza, at 86,000.

"Maybe AG Holder was on to something when he consolidated the Fed's focus on O.C. in this country."

You need to scroll down to about the third post... Hope you find it edifying, if not necessarily enjoyable...


The American LCN is primarily a domestic operation. One that isn't really even national in scope anymore. So it's obviously different from the larger syndicates that are international in scope. That 1,100 figure was actually from 1999 when the UN cited it. Since then, according to the FBI, the total membership in the U.S. is down to about 1,000. At least 70% of it being the 5 NY families. If you throw the other remaining northeast families in there - New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia - it goes up to 85%. Throw in the rest of the remaining members in the northeast and you're probably looking at close to 90% of the mob's membership in that single region of the country. Or, to put it another way, you could add up all of the remaining members outside of the northeast and it would roughly equal the smallest NY family.

I've always said that, if we're talking international groups, the Italian syndicates are a much better example than the American mob. But even then, you have to take a lot of these especially large membership estimates with a grain of salt. Even the experts don't always agree. For example, the FBI cites the Cosa Nostra as having 5,000 members and the 'Ndrangheta as having 6,000. However, Mafia expert, Letizia Paoli, cites the Cosa Nostra as having 3,500 members and the 'Ndrangheta 5,000. In other places I've seen 10,000 cited for the 'Ndrangheta. And 7,000 for the Camorra. The FBI cites 2,000 for the SCU but estimates for them vary as well. Getting into even much larger figures, like 300,000 for the Russians, 250,000 for the Chinese, and 86,000 for the Japanese can be even harder to read.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: Dapper_Don] #641257
03/23/12 12:19 AM
03/23/12 12:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 422
Tampa and Queens
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Skinny_Vinny Offline
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Tampa and Queens
Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
Plus I feel that the Russians are largely involved in White Collar crime like Medicare fraud which is much harder to get busted/draw attention than traditional organized crime rackets like loan sharking, extortion, etc.


I agree. Identity theft and the stuff you mentioned are their big things. Being from Queens, I pay in cash for just about everything I purchase these days. I won't get a "Key Food" card or fill out info at the pharmacy or health club because I know what will happen. Restaurants too. Pay in cash!

The Russians have all these ambulette services around Queens that take sick old people from doctor to doctor all day long. It's a huge scam.

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641259
03/23/12 12:25 AM
03/23/12 12:25 AM
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IvyLeague Offline
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Salvine, who was a poster over on the Real Deal back in the day and a retired federal law enforcement officer, said that, the most of the international groups don't have the same presence in the U.S. that they do throughout much of the rest of the world, which he said is almost like an "open buffet." Obviously the Mexicans, who are right next door, are an exception. But the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Albanians have a "healthy respect" for American law enforcement and so they don't try to become as entrenched in the U.S. as they are elsewhere.

In other words, the new ethnic groups here haven't had the same opportunity to become entrenched like the Italians did. The LCN had a half century before RICO was first used. The newer groups don't have that luxury, which is why the predictions about them in this country haven't come true for the most part.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: IvyLeague] #641268
03/23/12 01:20 AM
03/23/12 01:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,086
Bronx, New York
Dapper_Don Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Salvine, who was a poster over on the Real Deal back in the day and a retired federal law enforcement officer, said that, the most of the international groups don't have the same presence in the U.S. that they do throughout much of the rest of the world, which he said is almost like an "open buffet." Obviously the Mexicans, who are right next door, are an exception. But the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Albanians have a "healthy respect" for American law enforcement and so they don't try to become as entrenched in the U.S. as they are elsewhere.

In other words, the new ethnic groups here haven't had the same opportunity to become entrenched like the Italians did. The LCN had a half century before RICO was first used. The newer groups don't have that luxury, which is why the predictions about them in this country haven't come true for the most part.


really good point


Tommy Shots: They want me running the family, don’t they know I have a young wife?
Sal Vitale: (laughs) Tommy, jump in, the water’s fine.


Re: Mafia's Future [Re: Skinny_Vinny] #641269
03/23/12 01:22 AM
03/23/12 01:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,086
Bronx, New York
Dapper_Don Offline
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Originally Posted By: Skinny_Vinny
Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
Plus I feel that the Russians are largely involved in White Collar crime like Medicare fraud which is much harder to get busted/draw attention than traditional organized crime rackets like loan sharking, extortion, etc.


I agree. Identity theft and the stuff you mentioned are their big things. Being from Queens, I pay in cash for just about everything I purchase these days. I won't get a "Key Food" card or fill out info at the pharmacy or health club because I know what will happen. Restaurants too. Pay in cash!

The Russians have all these ambulette services around Queens that take sick old people from doctor to doctor all day long. It's a huge scam.



You aint kidding, I have personally seen a bunch of healthcare fraud being done by Russians over in the Bronx. It is crazy the amount of cash these smart guys must be pulling in.


Tommy Shots: They want me running the family, don’t they know I have a young wife?
Sal Vitale: (laughs) Tommy, jump in, the water’s fine.


Re: Mafia's Future [Re: Dapper_Don] #641270
03/23/12 01:29 AM
03/23/12 01:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 422
Tampa and Queens
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Skinny_Vinny Offline
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Skinny_Vinny  Offline
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Tampa and Queens
Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
Originally Posted By: Skinny_Vinny
Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
Plus I feel that the Russians are largely involved in White Collar crime like Medicare fraud which is much harder to get busted/draw attention than traditional organized crime rackets like loan sharking, extortion, etc.


I agree. Identity theft and the stuff you mentioned are their big things. Being from Queens, I pay in cash for just about everything I purchase these days. I won't get a "Key Food" card or fill out info at the pharmacy or health club because I know what will happen. Restaurants too. Pay in cash!

The Russians have all these ambulette services around Queens that take sick old people from doctor to doctor all day long. It's a huge scam.



You aint kidding, I have personally seen a bunch of healthcare fraud being done by Russians over in the Bronx. It is crazy the amount of cash these smart guys must be pulling in.


Yup. Take a walk around Forest Hills between Grand Central and 108th Street. There are three or four mansions being constructed or renovated on every street. No exaggeration. They put the mafia mansions of Middle Village and Howard Beach to shame.

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641274
03/23/12 03:21 AM
03/23/12 03:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,783
Queenstown, New Zealand
NickyScarfo Offline
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Is American law enforcement the strongest in the world? Is America the hardest place for OC to thrive now?

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641276
03/23/12 03:58 AM
03/23/12 03:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
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Balkans
Strax Offline
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Italian and Russian mafia are 2 most powerful OC groups in the world,not the quantity but the quality.


"A fish with his mouth closed never get's caught"
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641277
03/23/12 04:16 AM
03/23/12 04:16 AM
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Posts: 659
Newcastle Upon Tyne
short841 Offline
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short841  Offline
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
you got to realize is the sicilians and us lcn have member and associates! dont knoe but msybe the chinese russians albanians dont have members and associates. maybe there all members?


"You shouldn’t be embarrassed by your wealth. This contempt for money is another trick by the rich to keep the poor without it" - Michael Corleone

"You don't have to count the dead to understand the business of the Camorra" Gomorrah, Roberto Saviano
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: Strax] #641279
03/23/12 04:46 AM
03/23/12 04:46 AM
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Ivan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Strax
Italian and Russian mafia are 2 most powerful OC groups in the world,not the quantity but the quality.


The Yakuza are probably the most entrenched, "inextricably interwoven into the fabric of society" organized crime syndicate in the world, though I'm not sure how they would fare in a comparison of the "quality" of the average member.

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: NickyScarfo] #641283
03/23/12 05:20 AM
03/23/12 05:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
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IvyLeague Offline
IvyLeague  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NickyScarfo
Is American law enforcement the strongest in the world? Is America the hardest place for OC to thrive now?


I'd say American law enforcement, with it's resources, experience in organized crime investigations, RICO, the witness protection program, etc. is the most prepared to confront emerging crime groups and prevent them from becoming entrenched.

We also have to remember that it often comes to an agency jurisdictional thing. The FBI investigates the LCN, as well as the Russian, Asian, and Balkan criminal enterprises. The DEA is the agency that goes after the purely drug-trafficking groups the most, i.e. the Mexicans, Colombians, etc. Although there is obviously some overlap.

Last edited by IvyLeague; 03/23/12 05:22 AM.

Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: short841] #641288
03/23/12 07:00 AM
03/23/12 07:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 26
London, UK
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ciccogol Offline
Wiseguy
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London, UK
Originally Posted By: short841
you got to realize is the sicilians and us lcn have member and associates! dont knoe but msybe the chinese russians albanians dont have members and associates. maybe there all members?


This guy is right. If you say that Camorra has 7000 members and the Russian mafia has 300000 people, then I understand the confusion.
Using the Camorra as an example, the 7000 pretty much refers to the total members in the clans...this totally excludes all the young guys pushing drugs for them in the squares, all the people who work for them distributing contraband, dropping off items, laundering money. These are people who we would traditionally consider to be 'members' but is simply the formal structure of the group that means we have to say the camorra 'only' has 7000. For example, it is estimated that they pretty much directly employ 300,000-400,000 in Campania alone.

The Russians, for example as we all know, have a much more loose, renegade structure so it is easy to count even Pavel who sometimes steals vodka from the shop as an OC veteran...

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: Skinny_Vinny] #641307
03/23/12 11:53 AM
03/23/12 11:53 AM
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Posts: 23,235
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
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Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: Skinny_Vinny
Take a walk around Forest Hills between Grand Central and 108th Street. There are three or four mansions being constructed or renovated on every street. No exaggeration. They put the mafia mansions of Middle Village and Howard Beach to shame.

You ain't kidding.

I was a business agent (Teamsters Local 813) for the funeral directors and hearse drivers at Parkside Chapel and Schwartz Brothers (among others), which are both on Queens Boulevard, so I spent quite a bit of time in that area. There are tons of moneyed Russian and Bukharian Jews in that neighborhood. Now I'm not implying that they're all crooks, but they can't all be barbers whistle.

I was out there just last week to have lunch with a friend on Austin Street. On my way back to Throggs Neck, I took the side streets to the Grand Central. You have to see some of the houses going up by the old Parkway hospital on 113th Street. They're beyond belief. They kind of remind me of the houses that went up on Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn a few years back. They were knocking down million dollar homes just for the sake of putting up new ones.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: IvyLeague] #641309
03/23/12 12:03 PM
03/23/12 12:03 PM
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Throggs Neck
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
In other words, the new ethnic groups here haven't had the same opportunity to become entrenched like the Italians did. The LCN had a half century before RICO was first used. The newer groups don't have that luxury, which is why the predictions about them in this country haven't come true for the most part.

That says it all, Ivy. They'll never be another prohibition. They'll never be another Tammany Hall to protect the bosses from prosecution. Those days are long gone. No ethnic group (including the present day Italians) will ever have the same opportunities that the Italian American gangsters did eighty years ago.

All that said, OC will always be around to some degree because people will always want to gamble and borrow money (among other things). Someone will be there to provide these services. Whether it's the Italians, the Chinese, the Russians or the Albanians, there will always be criminal minded opportunistic people in the world.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: IvyLeague] #641332
03/23/12 02:01 PM
03/23/12 02:01 PM
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Sonny_Black Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Getting into even much larger figures, like 300,000 for the Russians, 250,000 for the Chinese, and 86,000 for the Japanese can be even harder to read.


The Russians and Chinese don't have the same initiation rituals as the Italian Mafia. On that chart, only the "made members" of the Mafia are shown as opposed to all the associates of the different criminal syndicates, and even then these numbers are likely inflated. It's not a good comparison.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641365
03/23/12 04:23 PM
03/23/12 04:23 PM
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m2w Offline
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russians and chineses estimates include both made members (if they have any ritual) and associates, the camorra has 7.000 inducted members but you have to add 70.000 associates same for cosa nostra ndrangheta and scu

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641583
03/25/12 05:21 PM
03/25/12 05:21 PM
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Very interesting charts. Although I can't help but think that strictly speaking in the next 40+ years all genuine Italian-American's in La Cosa Nostra will eventually die out. And after each spouse and each generation has passed surely LCN will then have to implement guys from Southern Italy?

Just like the Westies who went from a prominently Irish ethnic organization to an influx of Serbian members.



Re: Mafia's Future [Re: Parisi] #641599
03/25/12 07:49 PM
03/25/12 07:49 PM
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IvyLeague Offline
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Originally Posted By: Parisi
Very interesting charts. Although I can't help but think that strictly speaking in the next 40+ years all genuine Italian-American's in La Cosa Nostra will eventually die out. And after each spouse and each generation has passed surely LCN will then have to implement guys from Southern Italy?

Just like the Westies who went from a prominently Irish ethnic organization to an influx of Serbian members.




People were floating that theory about bringing Italians over 20 years ago. Eventually all the families will give way to general attrition - the last being the 5 NY families. I'm not sure how long it will take but they will always be Italian-American crime families for as long as they're around.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641617
03/26/12 12:09 AM
03/26/12 12:09 AM
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m2w Offline
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but the chart about russian mafia is totally bullshit lmao
in the italy chart sicilian mafia has more than 2500 inducted members, at least 5.000

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641630
03/26/12 03:11 AM
03/26/12 03:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
short841 Offline
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
i think theres 16000 associates in sicily


"You shouldn’t be embarrassed by your wealth. This contempt for money is another trick by the rich to keep the poor without it" - Michael Corleone

"You don't have to count the dead to understand the business of the Camorra" Gomorrah, Roberto Saviano
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: IvyLeague] #641632
03/26/12 03:29 AM
03/26/12 03:29 AM
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Posts: 581
Orange County, CA
Nicholas Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague

People were floating that theory about bringing Italians over 20 years ago. Eventually all the families will give way to general attrition - the last being the 5 NY families. I'm not sure how long it will take but they will always be Italian-American crime families for as long as they're around.


Speaking of, what do you think of independent Italian criminals in the United States, you've mentioned that poster at RD who's talked about the respect that foreign criminals have the power of American law-enforcement, I imagine this also applies to Italian, real Italian wiseguys.
Is there a zero presence of Ndrengheta, Cosa Nostra, or Camorra guys in the United States, or do they cozy up with Italian-American wiseguys?


"The Feds are a business Anthony, millions of tax dollars are invested in watching your ass, sooner or later, just like you, their gonna want a return on their investment." --- Neil Mink, Tony Soprano's lawyer
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: IvyLeague] #641633
03/26/12 04:00 AM
03/26/12 04:00 AM
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Ivan Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Eventually all the families will give way to general attrition - the last being the 5 NY families. I'm not sure how long it will take but they will always be Italian-American crime families for as long as they're around.


I do think the New York families will always be around in one form or another, but they will probably eventually mutate into something else. In 100 years they will be virtually unrecognizable I bet.

Things are going to get really interesting when the cohort of mobsters born between 1920-1940 finally dies out. As I have said before, when that happens, the Genovese family will probably turn into just another mob gang instead of the whole "Ivy League" thing.

For some reason I find the whole attrition process fascinating to observe.

Re: Mafia's Future [Re: Ivan] #641640
03/26/12 09:07 AM
03/26/12 09:07 AM
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Sonny_Black Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ivan
Things are going to get really interesting when the cohort of mobsters born between 1920-1940 finally dies out. As I have said before, when that happens, the Genovese family will probably turn into just another mob gang instead of the whole "Ivy League" thing.


I would rather think this will happen when the generation that was born between 1940-1960 dies out. These were guys that were schooled by the older generation.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: EVL] #641644
03/26/12 10:09 AM
03/26/12 10:09 AM
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
short841 Offline
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but arent the ones being schooled now being schooled by the middle generation which was schooled by the 1920-1940 generation? tongue


"You shouldn’t be embarrassed by your wealth. This contempt for money is another trick by the rich to keep the poor without it" - Michael Corleone

"You don't have to count the dead to understand the business of the Camorra" Gomorrah, Roberto Saviano
Re: Mafia's Future [Re: short841] #641646
03/26/12 10:27 AM
03/26/12 10:27 AM
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Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,553
Originally Posted By: short841
but arent the ones being schooled now being schooled by the middle generation which was schooled by the 1920-1940 generation? tongue


Yes, but eventually general attrition will take its toll. smile Also, the ones that were born between 1940-1960 grew up in the time the mob was still thriving. They were schooled by the guys who knew Genovese, Luciano and Costello. The still have the necessary experience.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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