I thought of this possibility after watching GFIII for the millionth time this weekend.

After he makes his confession and then his bedside speech to Dontomassino, he turns over the reigns of the mob operation to Vincent. When he does it, he tells Vincent that once he is in he can never get out, and he further tells him that he had tried all his life to get out. As he leaves the room he tells Connie
he has given up his position as Don "Because I can't do it anymore." This is all after he swears he will "sin no more."

Before the opera starts, George Hamilton tells Michael that the new Pope who is an honest man and who is Michael's ally has approved the Immobiliare deal, making Michael one of the richest men on earth and completely legitimate. Michael realizes there will be a plot against the Pope by the bad guys and looks into whether or not he can foil it, but this is more lip service than anything else. Neri is already on the train to Rome per Vincent's instructions.

It is Vincent after all, not Michael, who plans and directs the murders of the Archbishop, Luchese and that Swiss Banker Fuck.

After Mary's death, Michael appears briefly as a broken old man alone in Sicily, but we can presume he lived part time in NY and Part time in Sicily, or at least went back to NY to sell his stuff. Obviously he had to arrange for people to run Imobiliare, and no doubt he sat on their board of directors, if not on several other legitimate boards. Presuably on Michael's death Anthony would not have to worry about getting paid for singing operas. With all his mob ties dead and gone except Neri who worked for Vincent, and was probably near retirement hiself, it is unlikely Michael made new connections with the mob so he could have a role whatever rackets Vincent got involved in. As a respectable businessman he would not have had anything to do with a re-formed commission.

So at the end of the day he accomplished (at a huge price) what he wanted. He was out of the mob, he was not invested in anything illegal, and he was a philanthropist an a prominent real estate player in the legitimate world. His primary relationshi was probably with Connie who would have no reason to be involved in the rackets, and I would imagine Kay probably didn't want to spend much time with him after his shenanigans resulted in Mary's murder.

This theory does not in any way take away from Turnbull's famous maxim "Crime doesn't pay," because as long as he was involved in crime it didnt pay. And the loss of a chid is a pain that never goes away. Still,once he got out of the crime business he did well financially and finaly became Legitimate."

I suppose you could speculate that he kept an eye on Vincent, but I think it is unlikely he would have had any interest in seeing how operations on "the street" were going any longer.

Good analysis, dt. But I still wonder just how "legitimate" Michael was:
1. We saw at the beginning that Michael was still the power in the Commission (Vincent: "Zasa knows you're keeping him from rising in the Commission"). He might have cut his ties to the Commission in that AC meeting--or he might simply have been distributing ill-gotten gains from his gaming enterprises that the others invested in. That leaves the question of whether he still was a member of the commission.
2. He engaged in bribery of a corrupt Archbishop to gain the Vatican's vote to become head of Immobiliare. Bribing your way to "legitimacy" doesn't make you "legitimate."
3. Why did he need Immobiliare to be "legitimate," when he'd already been made a Papal Knight for his foundation giving and his generousity to Sicily? Immobiliare was a real estate holding company. I've always thought that his desire for Immobiliare was to use it as a money laundering operation and a basis for possible European shady ventures--real estate is a perfect cover for moving ill-gotten gains.
4. He appointed Vincent as the new Don. Of what? Handing over the remainder of his "illegitimate" empire to a personally selected successor didn't constitute "legitimizing" Michael--it constituted perpetuation of a criminal empire. And I believe Michael had two purposes in anointing Vincent: to get Mary away from him so she could marry someone "legitimate," and to use Vincent as his muscle (or threat of muscle) to scare his foes while he turned Immobiliare to his schemes.

I believe Michael was a born criminal. He had innumerable chances to put the criminal life behind him--and he chose crime every time. And every time, he won battles and kept losing the war. That's why I believe the moral of the Trilogy is: Crime Doesn't Pay.

Good Points TB, but there is really nothing to show that after he turned the illegal enterprise over to Vincent that he ever did anything that was not legitimate again (excluding in the light most favorable to him that he knew full well what Vincent would do to Michael's enemies).

Its worthy to note that twice in GFIII Michael and Vincent have this talk about Vincent's role. When the Zasa contratemps came about Michael mentioned that he had offered Vincent something in the legitimate world but Vincent refused. He even takes a shot at Vincent saying he doesnt need tough guys he needs lawyers. Then at the end he tells Vincent he can have what's left of the illegal operations and makes it clear that he, Michael, is out.

You are correct the bribing his way into getting the Vatican to go along with his takeover of immobiliare was crooked, but this was his way of getting out of the rackets. He knew of the shortfals of the Vatican bank and probably know the Archbishop was a crook. Even so he had to convince the archbishop that they had sold al their gambling interests, and of cours he had already made arrangements to buy himself out of the commission. Recall the commission all wanted to wet their beaks in Immobiliare, which Michael refused. After that Zasa and Altobello "conveniently" left the room and the hit ensued. Either Michael would die and the CHurch would be $100 million richer with the Mary Corleone foundation, and Corleone who was a stone in the Archbishop's and Immoniliare's shoes would be dead. When he didnt die, he was literally "pulled back in" because he had to find out who was trying to kill him. As for the "bribery" what he did was take advatage of this shortfall in the Vatican Bank, promise to make the Vatican Bank whole and in the process get what he thought was the Vatican's approval for control of Immobiliare. This brings up another point. Michael's promise to make the bank whole (not a bad thing to do) was predicated on the Vatican ratifying his stake in Immobiliare. The only reason he needed to do this was to keep the crooked archbishop from being exposed as a crook and to kee the Vatican Bank scandal free, and the deal was between him and the Archbishop. By the time Michael takes over Immobiliare there is a new pope, the bad guys have all been exposed and killed, and the shortfall in the Vatican bank is well known. Cardinal Lamberto was not a part of this promise to pay AFTER ratification, so it is possible that Michael never had to pony up the extra $700 million, in which case there was no bribe paid.

I'm not convinced. Michael is carry out his more sanguine solution to things by turning their execution over to Vincent. But, just as Vito planned much of the '55 massacre, Michael has his hands and mind in the GFIII massacre. Also, reagrdless of one's motivation, a transgression of the law (or morality) is still that, a transgression.

So, while he no doubt wanted out, he did not completely sever his relationship with what he wanted out of until it cost him the ultimate - the death of his daughter.

Well there is no direct proof that he helped Vincent plan anything. Moreover your point that he did get out after paying the terrible price of his daughter's murder. That was his penance.

He enabled Vincent. Michael turned over his power to Vincent just as Vito turned over his power to Michael. They both could have kept their respective power and not turned it over to anyone. In the end it was not a default; it was enablement. Such enablement makes them complicit and, thus, still illegitimate.

Exactly right, Olivant.

TB, I think you are too quick to dismiss Michael's legitimacy.

The first 3 examples you cite are from the earlier stages of GFIII, a time at which Michael is clearly still heavily involved in the Mafia world.

As for his appointment of Vincent, I do not agree that he was motivated mainly by practical concerns; the goals you list for Michael were also attainable without anointing Vincent as his succssor. Also, choosing a successor can be viewed as a "perpetuation of a criminal empire" but it can just as easily be interpreted as a clear repudiation of Michael's role within it.

Much of this comes down to the definition of "legitimacy." Do Michael's actions at the end of GFIII wash away all the horrible deeds in his past? Absolutely not. Will he return all his "ill-gotten gains?" Highly doubtful.

But I believe he was sincerely repentant and truly intented to (and probably did) change his ways going forward. In this sense, he could be said to be legitimate in the latter stages of his life.

No.

Remember the hospital scene?: "That's the price you pay." It was a conditional transfer of power from Michael to Vincent. That was not repudiation. Repentent is not repudiation.

Perhaps this is not the right thread for another "GF III is bad"-comment. But DT's remark about Vincent shows me that also from a mere storytelling perspective, GF I is much better. Vincent never had a doubt, he never refused the criminal life. So Vincent just doesn't have the weight for a tragic hero. (The story of Michael had been told already in GF I and II.)

Right. There is no depth to Vincent's character. What you see is what you get. His interlude with Mary might have been an attempt by FFC to provide some depth or complexity to the character. But the vehicle of incest is hardly the appropriate medium through which to try and do so.

The hospital scene was way before any acts of repentance. That was when Michael was still demanding that he contrl the family in all matters.

MOre ironic, earlier in the movie he tells Vincent wno wants to lead an illegitimate life, "Youu are what you are."

When Michael gives it all up and it goes to Vincent by default, Michael says "I can't do it any more."

It is COnnie who manipulated this transfer, and Connie who remains unrepentant, not Michael.

Repentence can be quite temporal. It definitely is not legitimacy.

Again, as both I and TB have pointed out, Michael did not walk away. He enabled Vincent.

That would have been a great story: Connie as the successor of Michael who commands the criminal empire - a "cold-hearted bastard" ;-) It would have set a link to the beginning episode of GF.

Connie manipulated it. Michael walks away and Vincent turns to Connie and says..."It is done." Questions: Could Michael have stopped Vincent from choosing this path? And was Michael's real motive to see the illegitimate empire continue or to manipulate Vincent to give up Mary?

It was any of those; it was not the chosen path of ligitimacy. Michael didn't have to turn over anything to Vincent. That he did, cast him in the role of an enabler. It's plain; it's simple. Michael should have just walked away if legitimacy and life-long repentence was his objective: you just walk away.

Yes, it's that simple: he could have walked away.
He was blessed by the Pope with a Knighthood; he was the benefactor of Sicily; and maybe he folded his hand with the Commission in AC.
Why did he need Immobiliare? And all its risks and conflicts? And its threats--to his life and to those around him? And, therefore, why did he need Vincent and his thuggery?

Well, let's take a look at the aftermath of GF III:

1) The Pope (John Paul I/ Lamberto) is dead, literally hours after approving the Immobliare deal. This would be absolutely huge worldwide news.

2) Archbishop Gilday is dead; there aren't that many archbishops in New York, so this would be pretty big news;

3) Keinzig (Swiss Banker Fuck ) , the director of the Vatican Bank, is dead;

4) Lucchesi, known to the public as one of the directors of Immobliare in Europe, is dead;

5) Altobello, who would be known at least publicly as a Mafia don, is dead;

6) and Mary Corleone, announced weeks earlier as the chairperson of the Corleone Foundation, is dead, shot at the same opera house where Altobello keels over dead.

Plus the assassin Mosca, the "twins," and a couple other Corleone bodyguards are dead at the opera house. There's no way you can remove a half-dozen bodies from a crowded opera house without a huge commotion.

As Lamberto quite accurately predicted, there would be a huge scandal.

However, the Church could really not afford for the full details of the scandal to come out, since that would reveal the full depth of the corruption of the Vatican Bank, the involvement of an archbishop, and the murder of the Pope, which would throw the Church into chaos from top to bottom.

So my guess is the Church, and the Italian government, would go to some lengths to cover up the details of the scandal, and to some extent to scrub Michael clean publicly, and paint him and his family as "victims."

The new pope (Paul John I ??) would probably go to some lengths to uphold the decisions of Lamberto (as the real-life John Paul II did for the real-life John Paul I).

Interestingly, the character of Lamberto/John Paul I in the movie seemed to be based more on the real-life JP II: a friendly, powerfully-built man, multi-lingual, relatively younger in terms of a Pope, a man looking to "clean house" at the Vatican.

The real-life John Paul I seemed to be more similar to Gilday: a thin, bespectacled, fidgety, frail-looking, chain-smoker.

Ambition. He wanted to be the next Rockefeller. The saying "There is no great fortune without a great crime" carries much truth, and Michael wanted to clean the Corleone name and be legitimate ...and rich.

Again it was Connie who approached VIncent and said if anything happened to Michael he had to take over. In that scene Vincent said he had already begun making plans. At the end Michael did walk away and Vincent took over, but yes, he walked away too late.

Yes, but well before that Michael tells Vincent that the price he has to pay for power is to give up Mary. Michael didn't have to do that. He held the power. It was his to give away or keep. Giving it away makes him a facilitator. But even before that he tries to exculpate himself by saying that "they pull me back in." In his conversation with Gilday, he is participating in extortion, something else he doesn't have to do. His machinations in Sicily are hardly those of someone giving up anything. He tells Vincent that he is now a Corleone. I think that all screams accessory before the fact.

OK I cry "UNCLE" he was never legitimate....there wasn't enough time....but he'll get there.