Is There Still a Mafia Family in Montreal?

In 2023, is Leonardo is a made guy ? And are is guys part of Cosa Nostra ? Or are they just wealthy italian gangsters ?

I brought this up years ago asking if the Rizzuto's were actually LCN....I remember when Gravano mentioned on his podcast that there's no Montreal family and everyone went bananas.

Well maybe he's not that daft, no induction, no structure, its just loose as fuck and everyone seems to be doing their own thing.

Maybe they kept some traditional structure around 2004, but that seems to be long gone.

When I first read this point a view if the Rizzuto were a mafia on the other post, I was like Mafia101 is bugging.
But when you think more and more about it, he could be on something, and he could be right.
Before the Violi’s they were part of the Bonanno, and were part of Cosa Nostra.
But after …. We really don’t know if the Rizzuto’s are official Cosa Nostra or simply an Italian organized crime group….
The media called them Mafia…but I think its really people who are active in the lifestyle that could answer.

In 2023, is Leonardo is a made guy ? And are is guys part of Cosa Nostra ? Or are they just wealthy italian gangsters ?

I like this post, and can wait to read all of youre answers…

Because the question is really a good one

There's no mafia family in Montreal, but there are groups that have leaders and some of those leaders are members of known organizations.

Who exactly are you referring to and what organizations?

'Ndrangheta, LCN

Okay.. who?

Things were always done differently in Canada.
Even the Buffalo crews were not structured as traditional LCN, crews.

Going back to Massino sending Vitale to find out how many made men they have.
So they were a crew of the Bonanno’a that had authority to induct new members, order murders with out the bosses approval.

That’s not TRADITIONAL.

So I think it safe to say there were never any traditional LCN crews in Canada, from the beginning.

Sammy the Bull is really dumb.

He def was never someone that knew much about the historical origins of LCN in America let alone abroad. He doesn’t know a lot about a lot things LCN, so I would not point to that as anything.

Just listen to his podcast and the way he tells stories you will see what I mean.
That does not take away from the fact that his time on the street he was a stone killer and he yielded a lot of power and influence.

He just was never groomed to be in the admin, he stepped into the position we all know how and why.

Well, Vito Rizzuto was a member of the Bonanno family for example. The Calabrians had some 'Ndrangheta members like Dominico Scarfo

Vito Rizzuto has been dead for 10 years and Dominic Scarfo isn't a leader of anything and his status as a Ndrangheta member is up for debate.

Joe Massino didn't send Sal Vitale up there to find out how many guys they had.

That's not true. What isn't traditional about the crews in Montreal and the Hamilton area? They were a group of Mafia Associates and Members ran by a Mafia Captain. Where did you read Montreal could order their own murders? Gerlando Sciascia asked permission to kill Giuseppe LoPresti even though Sal Vitale and Anthony Spero got the impression it already happened. What inductions did they hold on their own? A remote crew being allowed to see to their own affairs to a certain extent isn't non traditional either. Anthony Arilotta talks about of Al Bruno being like the Boss of Springfield but they were still a Genovese crew.

You guys are making stuff out of nothing.

You literally did say they're leaders Vittorio Mirarchi has been called a Ndrangheta member by media but no one can tell us what Ndrangheta clan he belongs to. His Ndrangheta status is in doubt.

I never claimed they didn't leave an extra chair open how would I know if they did that or not and I dont remember speaking to you about that.

I've read the book a couple times and I've read The Sixth Family and a few of the other Montreal books and they all have different accounts of what happened at this meeting. One book even brings up another visit to Montreal by Sal Vitale that isn't mentioned in either Mafia Inc or The Sixth Family. Some books say Vito Rizzuto refused the Captain position and suggested to offer it to his father another book claims Sal Vitale makes Nicolo Rizzuto the Captain and another claim is that Sal Vitale left Montreal leaving Vito Rizzuto as the Acting Captain. So using passages from these books as any type of evidence when they all recount a different story of the same meeting or meetings doesn't hold much water. You also left out the last line on the page where it says something along the lines of "despite all of this Vito Rizzuto remained a good Soldier."

Apparently the Rizzutos became their own crime family whenever Joe Massino ordered the murder of Bonanno captain Gerlando Sciascia.

Did Montreal break off from the Bonanno Family after the murder of Gerlando Sciascia in 1999?

After becoming a cooperating witness Bonanno Underboss, Sal Vitale, revealed that emissaries were sent to Canada to name a new captain of the Montreal decina. Vitale, who was one of the Bonannos sent to Montreal said he offered Vito Rizzuto the position, but he turned it down and instead suggested it go to his father. There are conflicting reports on what happened after this, Daniel Renaud's Vito Rizzuto: La Chute Du Dernier Parrain book has Vitale confirming Nicolo Rizzuto as Captain of the Montreal decina but Andre Cedilot & Andre Noel's Mafia Inc book has Vitale leaving Montreal with the Captain position vacant and states "The assassination of George from Canada would cast a permanent pall over relations between the Bonanno family and the Rizzuto clan. But business continued. And Vito remained a good soldier." Sal Vitale also testified the last known position he knew Vito Rizzuto held was Acting Captain.

As stated in the Court of Appeal, Rizzuto v. United States Of America, 2004, "The appellant is described by an informer as “an extremely powerful and influential member of the Canadian faction of the Bonanno family.” He still pays his dues to the family every year."

Dominick Cicale, a former Bonanno Captain revealed that he was told by Baldo Amato that Sal Montagna was acting as a liaison to Montreal and collecting tribute from them in the early/mid 2000s, a tribute that was increased as well. Although Baldo has been off the street serving a life sentence he received in 2006, he carried a lot of influence on the younger Sicilian Bonannos, including Sal Montagna. Cicale also claimed Basciano was receiving drug shipments from Canada.

Cicale's claim is later supported by recorded conversations between Joe Massino and Vinny Basciano in MDC Brooklyn in 2005. One of the conversations was about Montagna travelling to Canada to find his cousin work. Another conversation discussed how Canada sent word they wanted a certain associate placed with Montagna. A third topic of conversation between the two Bonanno leaders was the recent death of Montreal Bonanno Soldier, Frank Cotroni Sr., and how his death added another slot for upcoming inductions.

Both versions of the aftermath of Vitale's meetings show Montreal was still apart of the Bonannos organization after Sciascia's murder. The discussions between Basciano and Massino in 2005, along with Cicale's statements show the Bonannos, via Montagna, had ongoing interests in or with their Canadian counterparts. Furthermore, the discussions show Montreal was involved with internal Bonanno matters, requesting an associate with be placed with the conduit between NY and Montreal, I.e. Montagna. Therefore, we can reasonably say that no separation between Montreal and the Bonannos happened during or in the time shortly after Sciascia's 1999 murder.

Source: Vito Rizzuto: La Chute Du Dernier Parrain by Daniel Renaud, Mafia Inc by Andre Cedilot & Andre Noel. Court of Appeal, Rizzuto v. United States Of America, 2004, Salvatore Vitale's testimony, Basciano trial, 2006. The Cicale Files by Dominick Cicale & Ed Scarpo. Vincent Basciano & Joseph Massino's recorded conversations inside MDC Brooklyn, 2005.

Joe Massino didn't send Sal Vitale up there to find out how many guys they had.

That's not true. What isn't traditional about the crews in Montreal and the Hamilton area? They were a group of Mafia Associates and Members ran by a Mafia Captain. Where did you read Montreal could order their own murders? Gerlando Sciascia asked permission to kill Giuseppe LoPresti even though Sal Vitale and Anthony Spero got the impression it already happened. What inductions did they hold on their own? A remote crew being allowed to see to their own affairs to a certain extent isn't non traditional either. Anthony Arilotta talks about of Al Bruno being like the Boss of Springfield but they were still a Genovese crew.

You guys are making stuff out of nothing.

We already know the history. Vito was kicking up to New York long after Sciascia was murdered. That may have ended when Montagna started working with the french guy, but it's all guesswork at this point. Why are people calling them a crime family when no one has any idea if they have making ceremonies or anything of that nature? As far as we know, these are just guys who inherited a drug empire.

Eastside you just tried putting words in my mouth by taking what I said and applying it to one specific thing you said without the context of the actual conversation. That is not showing the truth that's being manipulative and dishonest to bolster your argument.

Instead of arguing about posts from two months ago why don't you show us evidence of a official Mafia Family in Montreal if that's what you believe? The burden of proof is on everyone who believes the Rizzutos are their own Family.

There is from a Canadian documentary.



Rizzuto Network
David Barbero
Lortis Cavalieri
Gino Constantine
Carmelo Cannestraro
Liborio Cuntrera
Marco Pizzi
Francesco Sollecito
Giuseppe Sollecito
Mario Sollecito
Mario Spagnolo
Vincenzo Spagnolo
Vito Salvaggio
Steven Di Paola
Steve Vogl
Antonio Cinquino
Leonardro Rizzuto
Stefano Sollecito
Domenico Salerno

Cafe Bellerose
Stefano Broccoli
Michael Sciaraffa
Rocco Sollecito Jr.
Lorenzo Giordano Jr.
Fabio Chimenti
Marco Landuci
Lucio Di Paola
Carlo Sciaraffa
Tony Tallarita
Emanuele Ragusa
Giancarlo Pesce
Stello Tutino

Clan Violi
Domenico Violi
Giuseppe Violi

The Calabrians
Franco Albannese
Antonio Gallo
Moreno Gallo Jr.
Antonio Mucci
Carmine Vanneli

Clan Annunziata
Luigi Annunziata
Maurizio Annunziata
FNU Annunziata

Clan Cazzetta
Salvatore Cazzetta
Salvatore Brunetti

Clan Focarazzo
Giuseppe Focarazzo
Anthony Abate
Louis Brissette
Patrizio Ruso
Frederic Lavie

Clan Ville Lasale
Giuseppe Arcorao
Pietro Dadamo
Pietro Monte

Clan Mirarchi
Vito Mirarchi
Alessandro Sucapane
Reynald Desjardins (IP)
Jonathan Mignaca
Calogero Milioto
+ Multiple names I am unable to read

Steve Sport Par
Ciro Di Mauro
+ Multiple names I am unable tor read

101- I read it in a book the 6th family.

I don’t have time to “MAKE SHIT UP”

It is clear to see that your mother never taught you how to play nice in the sand box.

The first sign of wisdom is “KNOWING WHAT YOU DONT KNOW”

I’ll admit I have not read that book in many years so I might not have remember everything 100%
I have no problem looking through the book again to refresh my memory.

I don’t think I need to now because EASTOFVAN pretty much just smacked you in UR MUG, with facts.

If you were 1/2 a man you would fess up and apologize, admit you were wrong.
If your mother never taught you how to play nice in the sand box, she probably never taught you how to admit when you are wrong.

So don’t think your capable.

You could have just asked me where my information
Was from because you never heard that before, before accusing me of making shit up.

Rizzutto is the head of the Montreal Mafia because the “ EXPERTS” THE REAL EXPERTS” the guys that make a living and get paid to write about this topic, that are best selling authors, are on T.V. they consult with L.E. at times.

And the fact that L.E. refers to Rizzutto as the head of the Montreal Mafia.

So if you want to challenge their resume go ahead and post-

1) Why you are more of an expert than Humphreys and L.E. (To name just 2)
2) Your proof as to why they are no longer considered the Montreal Mafia.

Recent Tweet from Humphreys:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...onardo-rizzuto-wounded-in-laval-shooting

101 has been drinking from his own cool-aid, afterwards he crowned himself king.

There is from a Canadian documentary.

Technically speaking, they don't have to have an initiation ceremony to be considered a clan or a crime family. Lots of Camorra clans and other mob groups throughout Italy don't have them, yet they're still considered clans. In America they'd be called crime families, terminology varies from country to country.

I wasn't but that's funny how you're caught up on that instead of addressing everything else I said.

This isn't the gotcha moment you think it is. Someone said Sal Vitale went to Montreal to find out how many members there were. I said that wasn't true and that's right Sal Vitale didn't go to Montreal with the sole reason to find out how many members there were. It might of been discussed but that wasn't why he was there. That's like saying Sal Vitale went to Montreal to go sightseeing because Joe Di Maulo drove him around Sal Vitale's main purpose in Montreal was to take their pulse and appoint a new Captain. If you want to consider this a win for you because you're nitpicking and splitting hairs then go ahead. You won Bensonhurst enjoy it.


So anyway now that I've addressed your pettiness could you please show me any evidence that Montreal has their own official Mafia Family? I think I've asked enough times already.

And if you think a couple paragraphs is a book and too long to read maybe forums aren't for you.

i would say that there is indeed a mafia family in montreal. it was once a top to bottom structured family. through decades of internal war the structure of the family has changed. whether any of the cells/crews operating in city are recognized officially by other families is a mute point. there have been large arrests over past 2 decades involving all the same crimes american lcn members get charged with. gambling,drugs,prostitution,extortion,bid rigging what have you. the members have been arrested and charged as members of the montreal mafia. so whether other families consider them a family dont matter if other oc groups in city and more importantly law enforcement recognizes them as such.
montreal has 10-12 different cells led by italian members with some italian associates. simply because there is no record of an initiation ceremony is irrelevant. throughout the entirety of the history of la cosa nostra,'ndrangheta,cammora etc. if we weigh how many possible ceremonies have been carried out against how many we conclusively know actually happened we would be left with a very small number of confirmed ceremonies. how many ceremonies have been caught on video/tape? not many.
and not all criminal groups mafia or otherwise have to share the same rigid structure and setup. to be honest the american mafia structure of a top to bottom pyramid hasnt exactly had great success rate by comparison. so maybe a decentralized cell structure without an overall #1/BOSS and administration could have a better chance of alluding law enforcement penetration.

as stated on other thread they are indeed a mafia family. i would like to see the other families go up and tell said members in montreal that they arent legit. the very fact that outside groups have not really been a part of these internal wars as good proof other families do indeed recognize the authority and territory of those in charge of montreal.
and to the point of the rizzutos being a drug cartel they would have been part of a cartel like setup along with other groups in and out of the city. this setup indeed did exist in 1999 up to about 2004.

the rizzuto crime family at this time being a united fully functioning family with its own administration and different cells/crews operating across quebec and ontario. in this case we had...
.

I'm asking you to prove what you're claiming and you're talking about something completely different. Kinda speaks volumes when you guys are asked for proof and no one can bring any up.


Disagreeing with you isn't being a troll btw you guys are just use to reading the shit off of Wikipedia and posting it here. So, when someone comes in and says something different you think it's trolling

were the stidda and sacra corona unita immediately recognized by la cosa nostra in sicily as separate distinct mafia families? or the nuova cammorra for that matter.
and official to whom...recognized by whom. the commission? please.it no longer functions as some overall governing body that sets down rules for the entirety of mafia groups in north america. it may serve this purpose currently for the remaining american families but not continent wide and hasnt for a very long time.
if? montagna was in contact with ny bonannos they gave him little help on that account and on trying to take over montreal.

and by yer reasoning the rizzuto crime family was that in 2012 at time of VITO RIZZUTOS release. V.R. was BOSS of said family with connections and equal status amongst both american families as u allege (bonanno,gambino) and toronto based 'ndrangheta groups. however there is no proof of who he met with amongst toronto based bonannos or gambinos. i know of none in 2012 operating in toronto. at least not members who could meet one on one with V.R. same can be said for 'ndrangheta groups. one on one with a commisso or carmine verduci perhaps one of the figliomenis for sure but we do not know.

in sept 2012 just before release an alliance was created t control drug trafficking amongst the rizzuto crime family,hells angels montreal chapter and gregory woolley allied street gangs. this alliance lasted until 2015.

so we are to believe that V.R. was BOSS of this family fully recognized by american mafia and 'ndrangheta with an existing alliance with local crime groups in montreal from 2012 to his death in dec 2013 but upon his death nobody recognized there strength,power and legitimacy since. absurd. if that was case why did HA and woolley continue to import distribute and make large amounts of money selling cocaine and other drugs on the streets of montreal with them?

why havent the bonannos,gambinos,'ndrangheta or anyone outside of quebec made a push to get rid of them and install a legit family. i was of the belief that the violis may have been behind some of it in the past. but there has been no valid proof of this. there also is no proof of who if anyone backed the scoppas in there attempt to overthrow the rizzutos. there has been claims of visits to toronto and meetings amongst the scoppas and 'ndrangheta in toronto but no names have ever come up. the same can be said for vittorio mirarchi. no proof to this day that he is a member of 'ndrangheta. none. he has only be described as a member of the montreal mafia.

i would say that there is indeed a mafia family in montreal. it was once a top to bottom structured family. through decades of internal war the structure of the family has changed. whether any of the cells/crews operating in city are recognized officially by other families is a mute point. there have been large arrests over past 2 decades involving all the same crimes american lcn members get charged with. gambling,drugs,prostitution,extortion,bid rigging what have you. the members have been arrested and charged as members of the montreal mafia. so whether other families consider them a family dont matter if other oc groups in city and more importantly law enforcement recognizes them as such.
montreal has 10-12 different cells led by italian members with some italian associates. simply because there is no record of an initiation ceremony is irrelevant. throughout the entirety of the history of la cosa nostra,'ndrangheta,cammora etc. if we weigh how many possible ceremonies have been carried out against how many we conclusively know actually happened we would be left with a very small number of confirmed ceremonies. how many ceremonies have been caught on video/tape? not many.
and not all criminal groups mafia or otherwise have to share the same rigid structure and setup. to be honest the american mafia structure of a top to bottom pyramid hasnt exactly had great success rate by comparison. so maybe a decentralized cell structure without an overall #1/BOSS and administration could have a better chance of alluding law enforcement penetration.

Vito you just said this in the other thread. I want to ask how do we know no one has told them we don't recognize you as Amico Nostra? Everyone here should know the infamous Cuntreras the other half of the Cuntrera and Caruana clan. For years and to this day people call these guys Mafia royalty and their family name is well established in LCN in Sicily Canada and South America. But in Project Otremens the police agent who was a member of the Bonanno Family told police that Joe Todaro the Buffalo Boss told Natale and Rocco Luppino that he does not recognize Joe and Paolo Cuntrera and Natale and Rocco Luppino agreed they should not recognize them. How could the Buffalo Family call into question the membership status of people who belong to the blood family of such well regarded and respected Mafiosi? To make matters more complicated the Bonanno Family does recognize the Cuntreras as Amico Nostra. My point being we never would've known the Cuntreras membership is questioned if we didn't have the police agent tell us.

The very fact other Mafia Families haven't gotten involved proves nothing and isn't exactly a fact. When Sal Montagna tried taking over Montreal he was in contact with NYC and when Nicolo Rizzuto Jr died and when Sal Montagna died meetings were held by the Bonanno Family. When Vito Rizzuto got out of prison he was rumored to have met Bonanno and Gambino members. All of that shows this was very much a internal LCN matter that involved the Bonanno Family at all points. By the time the dust settled the Bonanno crew in Montreal was decimated and that is when we see the kids of all these former members take over. When Sal and Andrea Scoppa start fighting Leonardo Rizzuto and Stefano Sollecito there were reports that Sal Scoppa had the approval of the Mafia in Italy and in Toronto. In both cases we have examples of outside involvement but we haven't had a inside source breakdown what actually happened and that's the problem.

Too many of us are speaking matter of factly saying they are a Mafia Family with their own administration or they're members of this organization or that organization when we have no proof of that.

1. Glad you say that. As recently as 2020 in the book La Source/Inside the Montreal Mafia a RCMP agent says they're under the Bonanno Family.

2. When Jerry Caoeci states something he cites a source. Canadian journalists authors and experts throw around Mafia titles and labels incorrectly constantly. Several authors journalists and experts have and keep making mistakes with this on subjects that aren't even in question. Their word isn't law. Them saying something doesn’t make it so.

Once again because it's very apparent that reading isn't your strong suit. I never said I was a expert. I am not making a claim of anything except that we do not know what the people in Montreal are.

You have to prove it to me because you're making unsubstantiated claims and I am asking for the evidence that supports your claim. This shouldn't have to be explained. When you say something is so the burden of proof is on you not the person who disagrees with it.

Follow your own 3 steps of presenting your claim. How do we know Montreal is their own Family? In the very first it was asked if they're their own Family and some of you said they were but not one of you have provided any sort of evidence of it.

In another wire-tapped phone conversation with Giacomo Luppino, Paolo Violi berated Bill Bonanno, the son of Joseph Bonanno, as he stated, "I told you that if I was to know that Bonanno was coming up again, I would tell him what a dishonest man he is. I would have gone myself and shown him what I thought of him...I would have told him, 'I'm not with you nor with him. I'm by myself. I don't want to have anything to do with anyone, because you're all a bunch of bastards'. The way things stand today that the abboccatoes [regions] will split and everyone will be on their own. I'm telling you that, in Montreal, we will be alone by ourselves."
Violi's brash, cocky and arrogant approach and lack of respect for his elders did not make him friends in the underworld.

Lip service or not it doesn't matter and someone who wasn't a member and very vindictive said it didn't matter anymore. Not a very credible source so it isn't cherry picking and how many times have we've heard from non members that being made meant nothing anymore? I think we could find sources from going back to 1970s of that and every time we later find out by people who were actually made that it meant everything in that life. If anything that just proves my point more that we don't know what's going on with the current guys who run things.

mafia101 i dont understand the central question of being officially recognized. if there is no overall ruling body that makes said decisions who is this authority deciding which mafia/criminal groups are official or not?

my inclusion of the info about the alliance with HA and woolley street gangs was only to illustrate that of all the mafia cells,factions or groups the hells angels and woolley could have teamed up with they chose rizzuto/sollecito and those allied with them. rizzuto/sollecito must then carry some significant weight in the milieu for said alliance.

i always enjoy current topics such as this and we can all disagree without being so disagreeable. i was without power for a couple days and would have enjoyed to jump in sooner. alas could not summon enough interweb particles to do so. it may have taken hours to post even this with the sludgy inconsistent power lately.

oh well.

mafia101 assuming you r correct that the mafia in montreal is not "officially" a recognized mafia family along the same criteria as the genovese for example. does it change anything? the murder,arson,gambling and drug dealing will not stop. nothing changes. we will never know either way regardless. is there an official opening ribbon cutting of a commission sanctioned amico nostra family? whether the are or arent we will never know without a cooperating witness to confirm.

if the commission or some other body exists that would make such a judgement does indeed still exist those in the montreal mafia are not listening and not following any of the rules. so for those that want to include the mtl mafia in a list of current active families in north america they can. and those that dont recognize it dont include. seems easy. and hardly worth all the arguing.

and to another of yer points about being italian,associating with other italians and committing crimes does not make u a mafia family you r correct it does not...but its a good start.

i find montreal the most interesting OC city because of all the questions it still poses about structure,administration the sheer number of intersecting criminal groups and rackets.

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/...us-florissante-dans-un-libre-echange.php

a very good article posted on this site before about current structure of mafia and OC in general in montreal.

I already brought up how in Project Otremens there were recordings discussing the Commission during that time period and how Joe Todaro was invited to join it. There's much more needed to observe what role the Commission plays today but based on this it does look like it's still functioning.

Vito to me it looks like you're thinking if other LCN Families don't recognize the group led by Leonardo Rizzuto and Stefano Sollecito as a official Mafia Family or even Amico Nostra meaning LCN members then they have no status in the criminal underworld. That is not the case as we clearly see they're considered 2nd only behind the Hells Angels in Montreal. I use Rochester as a example again because they didn't have recognition but they still ran rackets in their city without issue. They were still respected criminals just as Leonardo Rizzuto and Stefano Sollecito are but in the eyes of LCN members they are not members of the organization. That is what I'm trying to drive at here.

The Bonannos are probably the most Sicilian family of the 5 families connections with Canada and Sicily are still there.

In this specific instant of Andrea Scoppa speaking about ceremonies and inductions he is not that credible as a source because he isn't a LCN member and is a vindictive person. You read his opinion on anyone who slighted him so maybe if he didn't get button he would downplay it saying it means nothing. We see this time and time again from non members who down play being made and then we get accounts from people who were actually made and they tell us your button means everything in that life. I'm not dismissing it but we can't take it at face value and say that's that because Andrea Scoppa said so.

I have read all the recent reporting on Montreal. Now answer my question did you read this thread and see what I was actually saying? I never said the Bonanno Family still controls Montreal. I'm saying we don't know what is going on in terms of the organization up there. If you're Sicilian you're called Cosa Nostra and if you're Calabrian you're called Ndrangheta and if you're any other Italian no you're not. We have absolutely no info about what these guys actually are. We don't know if they're considered LCN or Ndrangheta or if they even have any formal membership in any organization. For all we know they could be groups of ragtag Italians playing Mafia.

This post is about whether there is a official Mafia Family in Montreal and for the people who say there is you guys still haven't seen provide evidence of that. The drugs construction and gambling isn't relevant to the questions at hand so I have no desire to talk about it.

How are you going to say it doesn't matter if Andrea Svoppa was vindictive or not? It completely matters because it goes to his credibility. It's not cherry picking. It's very obvious he wasn't a member of any organization so when he says traditions mean nothing it doesn't hold any water. What non made guy had held power over guy we know was made for sure. What does Dominick Cicale have to do with anything? He was vindictive when it came to guys like Michael Mancuso and Vinny Basciano but the little he said about Montreal about them still being apart of the Bonanno Family and sending drug shipments to Vinny Basciano and Sal Montagna being the one to collect tribute is supported by other info.

You're just rambling at this point you're arguing against things that weren't even said.

It has never been clear. The United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) considers the family a faction of the Bonanno crime family, while Canadian and most other international law enforcement agencies recognize it as an independent crime family.

Hollander- I believe that the U.S.intel in Canada is outdated.

So if they're not part of the Mafia, what organization do they belong to then? They're just a group of guys with no common thread binding them together operating in a city with many other criminal organizations, crime groups that have actual names, rituals, and affiliations? Makes very little sense to me.

So if they're not part of the Mafia, what organization do they belong to then? They're just a group of guys with no common thread binding them together operating in a city with many other criminal organizations, crime groups that have actual names, rituals, and affiliations? Makes very little sense to me.

i will add further the strategy if it is that, by HA/MAFIA to completely blur the lines and mesh the 2 organizations to some extent is genius.
i realize that the very idea of bikers having to protect mafia member is anathema to some but it is the case. and for those in the MAFIA that want to continue to live and make money there really is no choice but to allie with HA. the mafia is completely outnumbered province wide by HA it is not even close.

With so many other organized crime groups and gangs operating in Montreal, it just seems to me that a group of Italian freelancers with no official bond or organizational belonging would get ran over and treated with no respect, yet these guys are treated like royalty in the underworld, with the exception of their rivals and traitors of course. They're still called the Mafia by the media and more than likely recognized as such by other groups in the underworld. In other cities where we've seen Italian criminals pop up running illegal gambling or whatever, the media doesn't refer to them as the mob, unlike in Montreal. That's the main difference here.

much to dissect here.

-there are indeed multiple crime groups operating in montreal that is correct. but which one of these said groups aside from HA and MAFIA has same level of power and influence. the street gangs cannot even go a month without shooting at each other over a diss in a youtube video. the blue and red affiliated gangs not only shoot at each other but often commit crimes against there own clics. blue vs. blue, blue vs.red, red vs. whoever. there is no comparison there. who else to look to then? west end gang? in the historical sense of the WEG they do not exist anymore. the WEG were only ever a very loose group of organized criminals who sometimes worked together on certain crimes. not all WEG were involved in mass imports of drugs through the port of MTL. very few infact. bank robbers, safe crackers, loan collectors for hire etc you name it. however the WEG does not exist anymore in this context.

2) -what would be a better bond than surviving years of mob war a la L. RIZZUTO AND S.SOLLECITO? and you could toss in many more names to that list of survivors. i think we have to look at the MTL MAFIA very differently than any other city as i have already said previous. after VITO RIZZUTOS death there was no longer a BOSS in the sense that most think. it is alleged that after 2005 death of VINCENT GIGANTE that the genovese DID NOT HAVE AN OFFICIAL BOSS. daniel leo was only ever indicted as acting boss. there is proof of acting panels put in place after leos 2006/2007 indictment to run the family. these panels are alleged to have existed up to 2010 death and then release of liborio bellomo. so for 5 years the possibility exists that the oft glossed "ivy league of the mafia" had no official boss. the genovese leaders or gigante before his death appointed a small influential group of senior capos to run family a very similar situation took place in MTL MAFIA after death of V.R. a major difference of course being that MTL MAFIA also teamed up with MTL HA chapter and street gangs allied to gregory wooley to maintain total control.

3) -and why do all mafia families in north america have to operate in the exact same way from top to bottom? there is no commission rules stating this and i am of the belief the commission if it exists means ZERO to MTL MAFIA members.

4) how can anyone say we dont know? has anyone read any of articles written by journalists from the journal de mtl, la presse, tva ? they are full of information spelling out the current structure. it may not be accepted by some or the proper formal structure but it is what it is.

5) this is info from la presse article dated sept.23 2019 by daniel renaud. renauds knowledge on oc affairs in mtl is beyond reproach.
some key quotes and statements from said article. i will add unlike burnsteins rather dubious "reporting" lately renaud gives names of law enforcement for quotes. i know what an odd thing to do as a journalist. also these are pulled direct from article (with some paraphrasing) they ARE NOT MY HYPOTHETICALS OR GUESSES. i will post links to these after go ahead and re check.

-the mafia and HA are the 2 most powerful groups in city with other groups gravitating mostly towards them.
-structure= HA/MAFIA with 20 individuals, groups and clans working with 6 decision makers.
-the HA it is clear has a hierarchy, not all members have same influence.
-structure of MTL OC/MAFIA IS NO LONGER PYRAMIDAL, SINCE THE END OF THE SICILIANS, BUT CELLULAR. MAFIA NO LONGER HAS A GODFATHER OR A LEADERSHIP TABLE.
-the police no longer systemically speak of traditional italian oc, but now of italian oc. the traditional word has been evacuated.
-the concept of men of honor no longer exists. today the lure of profit is proof of everything.
-NO BELIEF THAT MAFIA WILL CHOOSE A NEW GODFATHER IN SHORT TO MID TERM. one reason being they make money anyway.
-belief that mafia is still in a period of transition, that one of its groups could in the future assert itself.

decision makers
1.mario brouillette
2.martin robert
3.stephan plouffe
4.salvatore cazzetta
5.salvatore brunetti
(my question here as article fails to give 6th name)

other important names:
giuseppe focarazzo-alleged to be direct link between HA MTL chapter and SICILIAN CLAN (name ref'd to old vito rizzuto led family)

THE SICILIAN CLAN
-composed of members of 2nd and 3rd generation of eastablished mafia families. clan is still most influential of the MTL MAFIA.
leaders
1.leonardo rizzuto
2.stefano sollecito
3.liborio cuntrera
4.vito salvaggio
5.nicola spagnolo
(my note the above description fits 4 of 5 leaders to a tee aside from the enigma vito salvaggio)

-rizzuto/sollecito considered acting bosses (2015). the police no longer affix this label to them.

davide barberio
-believed should the need arise be able to contact vittorio mirarchi.

vittorio mirarchi
-in control of some illegal sports betting in mtl. mirarchi clan is currently independent of other mafia clans and bikers, but has strong support from a mafia family in ontario.
(my question? who is this mafia family from ontario. often repeated without any proof or evidence and long a bone of contention on here amongst many as to the origins of mirarchis power and influence)

west end gang
-no longer exists according to police.

calabrian cell
-former members of cotroni clan who rallied to rizzutos after the latter came to power in the early 1980's has steadily diminished. some have retired or sold off businesses to emerging clans. last members of cell would be protected by salvatore brunetti. if there is any succession within this clan it would no longer have any affinity with the SICILIANS.
(my note this part about calabrians is very important and should put to rest finally any question about remaining cotroni,dimaulo,gallo, volpato influence in city. the last 2 being protected are presumably antonio mucci and carmine antonio vanelli)

antonio pietrantonio
-protected now by martin robert.

agostino-albanese clan
-tobacco smuggling, paying tax to VIOLI clan to whom they are loyal.
(my note..an overlooked mention to a cell of the buffalo mafia operating in montreal. if dom violi is UB and these guys are paying a tax thats the ball game no?)

annunziata family
-sons would be very close to liborio cuntrera and salvatore cazzetta.
(my note...another puzzler here. i scoured the deep dark recesses of google and can find one annunziata in montreal or quebec for that matter and nothing points to luigi annunziata being aa associate of mafia or anything close.)

alot to take in i get it but the info is there to read. at first myself in 2019 it was not the picture of the MAFIA that i had in my head but if taken for the value of information that it is and applied to figuring out goings on in montreal it makes it easier and clearer to understand. it may not be yer grandads mafia or even yer dads but it is a mafia top to bottom structure or not.

more to follow and link.

Mafia families don't take out a franchise agreement with the commission for exclusivity of a certain territory and use of the term "Mafia" (TM)

They're "mafia" by their heritage and actions, not because they're Michael Mancuso-approved.

...although the way things are going with all the YouTube content, etc. these days that may be the new low that is stooped to next!

The fact someone doesn't understand the most basic stuff about the Mafia and is going to argue all you need to be Mafia is be Italian and commit crimes is just nuts. That is my point. There's people on here who are trying to tell us what is what when they don't understand the simplest things. It's frustrating when no one bats a eye at that but if I say we dont know what Montreal is which is absolutely a the truth I get dogged on by several users and accused of rewriting history or not knowing what I'm talking about.

The issue is that you are deliberately omitting crucial information in order to create a straw man argument. The crucial information being that Nick Rizzuto was made over on the other side, as were some of the other guys around him. Some of their mafia bloodlines go back to the 1800s. Nevermind Nick, Nick's wife is the daughter of Antonio Manno. I doubt if Antonio Manno would have cared whether or not the five families of New York have "recognized" his progeny in Canada.

The Rizzutos are not "just a bunch of Italian guys committing crimes".