If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape

Dare I say it, but while Gotti was in that apartment telling the government every crime that he ever committed on those bugs, if he had never mentioned Gravano, Gravano wouldn't have been arrested with Gotti that day in 1990. It's really hard to blame Gravano for flipping, it was Gotti who drug him into his racketeering case. They hardly had Gravano's voice, if at all. Now I don't buy the story that Gotti was going to throw Gravano under the bus or make him take the fall, but it was all Gotti's fault that they were on trial at that particular time nonetheless. I can't stand rats, but it's hard to blame Gravano here.

What nonsense ! Gotti wasnt throwing Sammy under the bus. Can you imagine telling Gravano, “ hey, they need me on the street so Im going to place all the blame on you”. Its absurd.
If Gravano’s name was never on tape and he was still indicted, Gravano still would of ratted. You have to understand, Gravano was supposed ro be this tough gangster and he isnt supposed to rat. He needed to save face.

On one of the many true crime specials from TV, they interview a prosecutor. The guy says they actually didn't want the deal with gravano. Main reason was they just didn't feel any need for him so why give him a break.

No idea which special that was on.

Gravano was a target as much as Gotti, as was Locascio. Gravano was getting indicted no matter what, and would have still ratted.

That entire roundup and subsequent trial was centered around those Gotti tapes, if not for those tapes and Gotti's big mouth, they wouldn't have been sitting in that courtroom AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT. Sure, they probably would've gotten them using some other kind of method later on down the line, but it was those tapes with Gotti's big mouth on them that ultimately brought them down at that point in time. No Gotti fanboys please, I want neutral posters only, because I'm not too fond of either Gotti or Gravano, but facts are facts.

Lenox, I plainly stated that I think the story of Gotti throwing Gravano under the bus is nonsense.

The trail centered more on Gravano's testimony, and other evidence. Gravano just used the tapes as his excuse. Even if there were no tapes, especially with that judge, they were all in trouble.

It was Gotti's 3rd or 4th trial in like 3 years. He was going down regardless IMO. You have to throw pretty much all hypotheticals out the window bc when the feds want someone, they're gonna get him. Especially the guy whose constantly rubbing their nose in it. Gravano was second in command in arguably the biggest cosa nostra family in the country at the time. He also was going down regardless of tapes, which to me, makes his ratting inevitable. He just uses those as his out.

Bingo! You nailed it right on the head. 100%....1000%

Gravano would’ve flipped if facing serious time

He was afraid of prison. The “it was me or John” thing is just a bunch of bullshit to assuage his sense of guilt for betraying everything he believed in. And also for PR.

Okay, let's say that Gravano would've turned out to be a rat regardless, I'm still not convinced that Gotti didn't bring himself, as well as many others, down with those tapes. I'm sure they would've gotten him no matter what, but who's to say that it wouldn't have been another 5 years if not for his big mouth. He was talking about the Castellano, Bilotti, DiBono, DiBernardo, and other murders on tape, long after they were committed. Absolutely no reason to bring those up. That's one of the rules, never discuss past murders. Those tapes are what allowed the feds to obtain a court-authorized arrest warrant for Gotti, Gravano, and Locascio that day. They probably would've brought them down eventually regardless, but they would've had to find some other way if wiretaps didn't work.

It's really hard to blame Gravano for flipping? That is an unbelievable statement. You are either trolling or this subject is very new to you

What I'm saying, I don't agree with what he did, because he did take an oath, I'm just finding it hard to hate him as much as other rats out there.

O course Gotti’s mouth on those tapes hurt them. Gotti talking on the tapes didnt throw gravano under the bus.

I think they both turned on each other. Gotti had a big mouth and it sounded like he was trying to pass all the blame onto Gravano. As for Gravano he is also full of shit. Even if Gotti didn’t open his big mouth I think Gravano would have flipped anyway

The way I understand it, with some of those guys who were whacked, it was Gravano who came to Gotti with the request to take them out. I'm thinking Gotti was just blowing off steam, and who knows, might've even ended up killing Gravano. If after that last trial Gotti had laid low and only discussed business on walk-and-talks, making wiretaps impossible, they probably could've lasted for several more years.

Liggio is right on Gravano coming to Gotti to convince him for the go ahead to kill people by making like they were undermining Gotti behind his back. Gotti started getting suspicious, , that is what was on those tapes. Gravano wanted an excuse for ratting.

Because he gave up so much more then just Gotti

. I don’t know about that. I’m sure on some of them Gravano went to him but the majority were certainly Gotti. I don’t think anyone ever had to convince Gotti to Kill someone. Even back to the Favara killing some feel that the wife pushed for it and although I agree she wanted him dead but so did Gotti he just was waiting for a time where he could crate an alibi. I do think both turned on each other and it was a partnership that was bound to dissolve at some point

I think a more interesting thing to consider is, in a hypothetical scenario where Gotti and Gravano aren’t indicted in 1990, does Sammy make a move against Gotti?

His Star was rising. He was already Underboss. He also didn’t like John’s increasing courting of the press. He had good relationships with other key members of other families. He was a tremendous earner. He also had whacked out several rivals.

He and John were also innately cut from two different cloths. Sammy was white collar and had been a strong Castellano man, and was arguably more important in the Family than John was before Paul’s slaying. Certainly, Paul valued Sammy more.

Obviously making a move on John would require taking out Peter, Gene, and John Jr as well

But would he have done it? Would he have had support?

Remember, he had made the pact with DeCicco to give John a year before they clipped him. So the thought of clipping John and taking over HAD crossed Sammy’s mind before

If Sammy had flipped for reasons of principle, just to get revenge on Gotti, he would’ve limited his ratting only to Gotti and not to Frankie Loc and so many other gangsters in the family. He flipped to save his own ass from prison. The “I wanted to get revenge on John” is just self promoting PR bs to create a mystique on himself, make himself look like less of a rat, and also to help him sleep better at night

The guy was no Macchiveli. He was a guy who was afraid of prison and didn’t believe in LCN anymore.

Good question, Jackie. And, it could be turned around: Would Gotti have whacked Gravano? The apartment tapes are filled with Gotti resenting Gravano's business success. Everything during Gotti's reign as boss was all about him--the "king." We heard him say he had DiB whacked because DiB failed to answer his summons. Seems like it wouldn't have taken too much more for him to get rid of Gravano.
. :

Turnbull:

I say that the relationship between Gotti and Gravano wouldn’t have lasted two more years even without the indictment in 90

Either Gotti would’ve taken Gravano out

Or Gravano would’ve gone after Gotti. In the latter scenario I can see sort of a miniature version of a Colombo style war breaking out in the Gambinos. Gravano with white collar loyalists - ironically, a lot of Castellano men - take out John, and the brothers, and son, which then provoke a rebellion by his hardcore followers and friends in the Family. Lasts maybe six months to a year.

I think that either way, one of the two men would’ve been dead by the end of 1992

Gotti’s ego was such he was becoming suspicious that Sammy would eventually outshine him and maybe as such move against him. And whatever admiration or affection he had had for Sammy was turning into resentment, paranoia and jealousy. And he had other made guys who were also jealous pissing in his ear. All it would take would be someone claiming Sammy was planning on a move, like what Angie did with DiB, and Sammy would be gone

For his part, I don’t think Sammy ever fully respected John. He respected his guts and his balls. But I do think the white collar part of Sammy looked down on John as an empty suit, a flashy degenerate gambler. As much as Sammy wants to play the I was a gangster card, he was as much a racketeer as Paul was. Difference is he got his hands actively dirty. But he was not from the Dellacroce street school. He was a white collar man who allied with John because it was at the time beneficial for him to do so. Before that he’d been one of Paul’s golden boys.

They were a pair of narcissists who were destined to destroy each other down the line

The Favara killing was way earlier, has nothing to do with this.

Exactly, plus he gave up people form other families. It was not about Gotti, it was all about Sammy being a self serving coward and punk.

. That’s Very True

So many what If's

Sammy had said a few times
John was being John...

However, it appears that Sammy, was turning out top be a "GREEN EYED MONSTER"

Gotti still lived in the same house he did from when he was first made.
Didn't really have very many businesses.

He wasn't trying to acquire any sort of wealth.

No real-estate buildings.

Gravano, had the 5,6, 7 businesses.

The tapes really would have sank Gravano's boat I believe more than Gotti's

More informed people like me would know the answer to this, but how much could the feds prove without the wire taps. I’d guess not much. Can’t say I’d feel any urge to go down with the ship if that’s the case

My understanding is that the tapes were the cornerstone of the case. He talked in such detail, and with such verbosity in that apartment that there was no mistaking what he was saying. At a minimum this was a guy who was aware of murders happening under his watch. At a bare minimum he basically gave them a RICO conspiracy case. The tapes alone were enough to give you say a 98% chance of giving them 25 to life

Gravano’s testimony was more corrobation of what Gotti himself had already said on those tapes. Gravano flipping was just the icing on the cake that turned that “98%” certainty of a conviction into 100%. But without the tapes, Gravano’s testimony could’ve been written off or, at least, discredited to a degree by a skilled lawyer

Gotti, in essence, unwittingly ratted himself out. His voice on tape was the trial’s star witness.

IMO, you're absolutely correct in your assessment.

. True. Gotti was both stupid and a blabbermouty so he essentially sunk himself. Like you said Gravano was just a corroboration

Bingo! Gravano may also have brought more heat on them all by instigating al those killings. Yet he throws the blame on Gotti, and people fall for it.

Was he really a blabber mouth?

Or did he just make a HUGE mistake that cost him a life sentence?

He broke a major rule that cost him everything your not supposed to talk about a murder after you commit it.

With that said the Govt spent $100MM to get Gotti, tapes or not they would have eventually sank his ship.

They didn't have tapes and they figured out a way to nail Massino.

The Gov't machine is unstoppable.

i am sure there are more however, the only guy that comes to mind that actually "BEAT THE GOV'T" is Jr Gotti,
4 Trials and he beat them all and walked out of the doors a free man.

And was never charged again.

I dont know of any other gangster that beat the Gov't at 4 consecutive trials.

Thats the reason they released the info on the proffer to destroy him and possibility get him killed or fear of being killed so he would run to them for cover.

If the government wants you that badly, they will eventually get you. Whether it's through legitimate means because of their unlimited resources and investigative abilities, or through presenting trumped trial evidence to get you indicted and then a kangaroo court-styled conviction. Period!

I clearly said that they would've eventually got him anyway, my whole point was that his reign on the streets could've lasted a lot longer than a mere 5 years if not for those tapes. Sure they got Massino without tapes, but his tenure was over twice as long as Gotti's. Speaking of Massino, if nobody had ever flipped, none of those murders would've been solved. They certainly weren't solved with CSI techniques. I think oftentimes wiseguys get bamboozled by the feds into flipping, and they often fall for it. Like the government threatening Massino with the death penalty, yeah right, they bluffed him.

guys like Leonetti,Gravano,Casso those never done any real hard time before gettin pinche and facing the real music,look at Gotti,Persico ,Amuso them guys done time before they did real hard time ,,especically Gaspipe when he ask who did the killing on a ceratin wiseguy that a ¨red¨flag rite there,, he was never cosa nostra

You are exactly right look at Sonny Franzese they framed him.

Correct, they brought 5 serious cases against Sonny over the course of only several years time. He beat em all. So the FBI then trumped up a federal bank robbery case against him and coached a series of rats to testify falsely before a judge (Jacob Mishler) who was another pro-government proponent in league with the feds to hang him...and they did!

He got 2/25s, a total of 50 years for which he served almost 40 years in the can for, from 1970 forward (on the layaway plan as it turned out).

carmine persico most likely ratted him out or set him up so he can take power,,,
1.he either ratted sonny or set him up to prision
2. he and his son Allie boy knew Scarpa was an FBI informant in the early 80s and did nuthing about
3.while he was at a Georgia prison he be friends alots "questionable" characters
makes you wonder who he really was all this time

You're striking me more and more as a legend hater, in other words you take people who are legends and try to find nonexistent dirt on them, out of jealousy and envy, to destroy their status.

He is just here to disrupt things on this site. He has done this before.

well i do write here once in a while unlike most of you guys spend more than half of your life in this forum,, i do have a job and life,,,le me ask you this do u guys see starting a thread every single the day most like you Jace or the other guy.the answer is NO i dont write threads evry single day. you assholes,,, the truth hurts how you look up the men and find out they are not who they seeem to be

Gravano was and is a Rat.He'd do anything to survive.He has NO Honor. Look at what he did to his Family while under Witness Protection. Sammy is all for himself, Screw anyone around him Family and Friends.

If you're someone who lived that life, ratted, and now has a podcast or youtube channel, you just love the attention and don't give a shit about anyone else.

Exactly. He swore on tv and on the witness stand that he was out of crime then got right back into things when he was in witness protection. Plus getting his kids into it was really low. A rat will do or say anything.

His Daughter turns my stomach..lol

You gotta give her credit when she came back to Staten Island where she grew up for the first time.

Took BIG BALLS…

Growing up as Sammy's Daughter at the height of his power.
To come back as a Rats Daughter
Whose father put away probably close to 100 guys.

That could not have been easy.

The person who really got hurt from Sammy Flipping was Locascio
He had a shot at beating that case.

He didn't say two words, on those tapes he MUMBLED, and said " I predict he brings you $50K) Literally that's all he said. Or thats all I heard from what they played.

Gravano put the nail in his coffin on the stand.

The tapes did in Gotti and Gravano, there wasn’t a peep on the tapes about Locasio