Saddest story when a civilian was a mob victim?

One of the biggest myths about the mafia is that they only kill their own which obviously isn’t true. There have been many cases where civilians became mob victims. Obviously popular ones like Nicky Guido, John Favara, and Dominick Ragucci. Also there are many others that not as well known but were sad and brutal. They’re all sad stories. Personally I always felt the Ragucci killing was the craziest and saddest story. A Young kid trying to pay himself through college just happened to stop at the wrong house at the wrong time. Then is chased through Long Island by two guys with guns. I can’t imagine the fear going through him while the chase was going on and especially when his car crashed. Just a sad story. Interested in hearing your thoughts/examples!

Giuseppe Di Matteo son Santino was kidnapped in 1993 for send a messagge to his father to stop cooperating on the Capaci massacre. Santino tried to find thevson but end continue to cooperate and the boy was killed after 25 month strangled by Brusca and the body dissolved in the acid.

Silvia Ruotolo was murdered on 11 June 1997 in Naples, while returning to her house after going to pick up her 5-year-old son Francesco from school. Watching her from the balcony was Alessandra, her 10-year-old daughter.

The Camorra commando who shot had Salvatore Raimondi as its target, affiliated with the Cimmino clan, an opponent of the Alfano clan. Forty bullets were fired which, in addition to killing Salvatore Raimondi and wounding Luigi Filippini, reached Silvia Ruotolo - who was in the street with her son - to the temple, killing her instantly.

Also that one when Camorra killed innocent kid , someone was stealing from construction sites in Naples , contractor knew who was doing it and the deal was he had to stand in front of building and wait for him to shake his hand , thats how killers would know who is it , idiot shook hand of innocent kid and they started shooting killing the kid on the spot. I can't remember his name.

1986 - Claudio Domino 10 years old - shot with single bullet in the head.

2014 - Nicola "Coco" Campolongo 3 year old killed by 'Ndrangheta

Yeah the Camorra is very brutal

1952 - Arnold Schuster was killed on orders by Albert Anastasia (allegedly)

Veronica Zuraw, a Nun that was shotgunned to death by the Colombo Family in 1982......

Alan Kaiser a 16 year old kid who was shotgunned to death by Sammy the Bull in 1977....

William Aranowld Father of a Judge who was also going to be innocently murdered was mistaken for the son and murdered in 1987 by the Colombo Family


Ralph Dols NYC Housing Cop who was murdered for marrying the ex-wife of Colombo Consigliere Joe Waverly in 1997.....

Matteo Speranza - killed in the bagel store during Colombo war. Absolutely awful.

Albert Gelb - court officer killed after he stepped in to help a woman being harassed by Charles Carneglia and guys in Gotti crew at a diner. They ended up tracking him down and killing him down the road.

Norman DuPont went away for killing a totally innocent person after getting drunk off his ass celebrating a Gotti trial win.

There was that jeweler in Staten Island killed a decade ago or so.

The two carting guys in Long Island. Wouldn’t back down, got murdered.

William Luyrie - garment district related killing, again, encroaching into legitimate industry by any means necessary.

That’s 15 killings from the late 70s into the early 90s....looks like they regularly killed innocent people including women and children......oh and cops....they’re they go again upholding that oath...good thing they’re all “honorable” guys who will “never” rat....

Has that son ofa bitch ever spoke on that situation on his YouTube channel or podcast? He sure skipped that part in his book….🤨

1972 Sheldon Epstein and Max Tekelch killed by the Colombo Family

Guisippe Turano killed by the Bonnano Family in 1979.His 16 year old kid was critically injured in the shooting but survived......

No of course not, I even commented and asked if he would speak on it and included a link an article on the killing and my comment was deleted, the piece of shit doesn’t want that getting to the masses...

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-yor...-sister-killed-brother-article-1.1025244

Neapolitan noodle shooting - accidentally shooting 4 people, killing 2, who were mistaken for members of Persico crew.


Carpenters Union member Danny evangelista killed for protesting the mob’s control over NYC carpenters unions.

Peter Panto, Brooklyn ila leader who stood up to the mob.

In 1982 in Italy, there was a camorra attack on the judge Alfonso Lamberti, but the triggermen missed and killed his 11-year-old daughter Simonetta who was with him in the car.

Arnold Schuster's murder wasn't sad, I feel no pity for a rat civilian or not, mind your own damn business unless you're reporting animal or child abuse.

Some other examples:

In 1919, in Kansas City, Paul Catanzaro shot and killed 11-year-old Frank Carramusa.
In 1948 in Corleone, Italy, mafia boss Michele Navarra poisoned 13-year-old Giuseppe Letizia who witnessed a murder committed on Navarra's orders, and was later brought to a hospital where Navarra worked as the chief doctor.
In 1961, in Palermo, 13-year-old Paolino Riccobono was shot and killed because of being related to some mafiosi involved in a local feud (his father and brother were already killed several year earlier).
In 1973, in Crotone (Calabria, Italy), Maria Giovanna Elia was killed by a stray bullet in a shootout between members of the Vrenna and Feudale 'ndrangheta families.
In 1986, Porto Empedocle (Sicily), Antonio Monreale and Filippo Gebbia were killed by stray bullets in an attack against members of the Grassonelli stidda clan (several stiddari were also killed in the attack).

Accidental killings of civilians are tragic, but you are all trying to run up the numbers by coming Italian and Americn Mafia killings, and including suspect ones, like Schuster, who may have been killed by others besides Albert A. The nun and the 2 innocents killed in Brooklyn were awful, the cop killing was wrong, but was that a mob killing or one wiseguy doing it on the sneak without approval? Favara was an asshole and may have deserved it.

"Alan Kaiser a 16 year old kid who was shotgunned to death by Sammy the Bull in 1977...."


Excuse me, but not a mob killing, he beat up Gravano and Gravano went after him on his own after, Gravano was not even made at the time.

Didn’t a Lucchess guys sister get shot while with him? Can’t remember if she died or not. It was when Vic n Gas were on the warpath

Pete Chiodo’s sister.

I believe his uncle got murdered too.

. Yes it was Pete Chiodo’s sister and thankfully she survived. Ironically Pete Chiodo was very loyal yet they tried to kill him anyway. Then they tried to murder his sister. Cant really blame him for turning. It really shows how cruel, treacherous, and dishonorable the mob life truly can be

“ Sammy Cards Cataudella was convicted in a RICO case in 1988 and might have been the target of a revenge slaying ordered by Zizzo loyalists that went awry less than three months after Zizzo went missing.

A “civilian” named Gerry Dhamer was slain in a professional hit, shot-gunned to death, in front of his home in November 2006 on the same street in suburban Park Ridge, Illinois Cataudella had once lived. Dhamer, 48, resided at 623 North Broadway, down the block from the Cataudella-owned property at 632 North Broadway, which was being lived in by his son and daughter-in-law at the time Dhamer was killed. Investigators strongly suspect Dhamer’s homicide was a result of mistaken identity and the assailant mixing up the addresses.”

I don't think Chiodo was so loyal, although it was way out of line going after his sister. Traditionally that is not done. But you are not here for a discussion, you're here to rant and preach.

. What I find hilarious is that nobody else thinks I’m “ranting and preaching” or that “I like rats”. It’s just your own insane posts that claim those things. I’ve been here for over 11 years and have a good reputation on this site and Never had an issue with anyone except yourself. Another funny thing is that I never seek you out you seek out my posts which continues to get creepier and creepier 😂 . We all have different opinions on here but you can’t accept that for some reason. That’s probably why you constantly have issues with so many posters in here

Yup. I totally forgot about the uncle

The police have killed about a 1000x more innocent civilians than all the mobsters that ever existed since the beginning of time. Give me a break.

Same for other crime groups. On this topic they are going back close to 40 years and spanning the globe to come up with about a dozen killings, while one year in some sites or countries sees that many innocents killed, occasionally on purpose.

The Nicky Guido thing was also heartbreaking. Just because he happened to have the same name and bad information. I think a similar thing happened with the Bath Ave crew. They were going to rob a safe from a house and it ended up being the wrong house which resulted in them killing a mother in front of her daughter

Cherie Golden age 19, who was killed by Anthony Senter and Joey Testa because of her relationship with John Quinn.

Honorable mentiom Mary Bari just because she was so pretty. Sure she was a Mob moll and might have been informing on Little Allie Boy, though there's no evidence, she didn't deserve to get her brains blown out.

. Yup this happened right around the time when Roy got made and they told him no more unsanctioned murders which obviously fell on deaf ears

You say it was unsanctioned, then it is not a mob hit.

. Yeah that was brutal. Obviously a good amount of women victims as well

Come to think of it The Gemini Crew, as usual, have a list of civilian hits some sanctioned, some not.
Patrick Penny
Khalid Daoud
Ronald Falcaro
Frederick Todaro
etc, etc, etc

That’s about 25 mob murders of innocent people by the New York Mob between the 70s and the early 90s

Let me get this straight, the kill rats rule only applies to men and we're supposed to cry because this rat was a woman and even better yet very pretty? You gotta be joking.

[quote=CNote]Come to think of it The Gemini Crew, as usual, have a list of civilian hits some sanctioned, some not.
Patrick Penny
Khalid Daoud
Ronald Falcaro
Frederick Todaro
etc, etc, etc[

/quote] yup and there are even more that arent made public

The Italian mob is even more brutal than the American one as far as civilian victims are concerned; one of the worst examples I forgot to post earlier:

The Pizzolungo massacre (Strage di Pizzolungo) - 2 April 1985, in the Trapani province in Sicily: Two 6-year-old boys and their mother (Barbara, Giuseppe and Salvatore Asta) were blown up with a bomb while in their car; the bombers were trying to kill a judge who was in another car, but botched the job by making it explode at the wrong moment.

A curiosity: the senator Marcello Dell'Utri (one of the founders of the Forza Italia political party), is a friend of the mafia boss Vincenzo Virga, who was one of those who ordered this bombing. Dell'Utri and Virga were even convicted once for doing extortions together.

And religuous world leaders probably have killed billions so the fuck what.

some of you people need a good slap

Answers for me are

Dominick Ragucci

and

Giuseppe Di Matteo

let me get this straight, you want to glorify raping, murdering, criminal pieces of shit, and we are supposed to think they are cool because they didnt tell on their friend when they went to jail

you'd be in the list of people needing a good slap

wow sammy got his ass kicked then comes back to shot gun that guy who beat him up.. he has to b the biggest pussy in the history of mobsters. well my fault a lot of them are like that. good info buddy. but after hearing this how did they not ever lock him up and throw away the key....

Did he beat gravano up previously? The article is a little confusing on that.

Or was he merely in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Uh, we've been down this road several times here. Yes standing up and facing the music without selling anyone out is honorable, in fact it's one of the most honorable and selfless things someone could do!

I don't see DillyDolly glorifying anyone. As for the rest of what you say, I think the "Raping, murdering, pieces of shit" comment is ludicrous. You and a few others love to denounce instead of discuss the mafia. Get off your soap box, and get truthful, please.

We all got our opinions, but your "Ay yo! I'mma smack yo ass!" horseshit whenever you disagree with someone is ridiculous to say the least. I'm willing to bet you couldn't punch your way out of a wet paper bag.

What rock did you crawl out from under? Lol

A good slap? Guys like you don't even deserve a slap. Maybe a backhand though. Lol... or a good kick in the pants like a little kid

Another internet-keyboard tough guy

As I've often said in the past: "Internet muscles are worse than whiskey muscles :-)"

. Yeah the Ragucci killing was the toughest for me because it was the absolute wrong place wrong time and he was just a kid

CNote- dating more than one high ranking mafia guy and than going on a job interview with a guy that the neighborhood calls the "GRIM REAPER" isn't innocent to me sorry.

I am not saying she deserved to die but play with fire and you will get burned.

Sometimes it is that simple

One civilian is too many.

You know what comes to mind is the Gotti tape when he says in 10 years they will miss John Gotti.

For an organization that has controlled O.C. in America for over 100 years.

I think the # isn't terrible.

Could you imagine what the #'s would look li kn e is MS-13 was controlling crime.

I mean its in the rules you dont hurt civilians.

You think M.S. 13 or any of the gangs even give two shit about civilians?

LCN- was and is the only group of criminals that even cared enough to bring up the subject.

Think about it some gangs target innocent people to kill to be initiated into the gang.

So LCN will kill you if a member kills a civilian..

Think about the difference for a minute.

Who would you rather have control crime?

Because crime will always exist.

With out some sort of control you have anarchy

What about Robert Kubecka and his brother-in-law Donald Barstow? They were gunned down for not joining a waste-hauling cartel owned by Sal Avellino.

BensonHURST, she definitely wasn't an innocent and there is some evidence that the Feds were intrigued in getting her to talk about Little Allie Boy but not that she ever did say anything. Sammy the Bull claims that Persico became jealous that she found an FBI agent attractive and asked Scarpa to take care of her. Another story is that Lin Delvecchio, the FBI agent working with Scarpa, told him she was informing on Persico, even though she hadn't seen him in months and had no idea where he was.

Throughout the history or Italian organized crime there have been repeated instances of 'civilians' getting clipped for one reason or another. But it was very rare, and actually in conflict with a formal dictate from the Commission. Yet, there were exceptions.

But in the last 3 or 4 decades its become more of a free for all. But thats true of CN overall so it stands to reason that it trickles down to all the rules also. (hurting innocents also)

Unfortunately

One of the biggest problems is when the 'boss' and hierarchy of a family is disrupted through arrests, imprisonment, or violence. It leads to a disruption of affairs and is a problem that many crews can overcome. But once this disruption is related over and over the bench gets thin and there are less capable guys raising to man the helm.

All you need to do is see who is 'there' now, as opposed to say, 1950, 1960, or so. A completely different caliber of wiseguy. Guys who never would never have even been 'made' years back now find themselves in a 'bosses' spot.

"Associates" years ago were sharper, smarter, tougher, and better much earners than most soldiers and capos operating today. (FACT).

What a sorry state of affairs as far as the rank and file memberships go nowadays. Very sad and very bad for CN for sure

Michael Donahue in Boston was killed along with Brian Halloran. Sure he wasn’t an intended victim but still a innocent victim. Also bulger/Glenni murdered Debbie Davis and Deborah Hussey

Again the argument to be made aho would you rather controlling the crime where you ljve?

A LCN Capo, or MS-13 or some other gang*

There will always be crime, drugs, prostitution gambling...

Think about that long and hard.

Because LCN in America and we know it barley exists anymore.

Out in the open where you can walk into a social club and talk to these guys.

They are very few and far in between.

If because of all this money printing we head into a bad recession and the city has to cut down on police and essential services, which is what most likely will happen.

Would you feel ok if your wife and your children had to wall by a social club or a cafe or a MS-13 gang meeting spot.

There will always be crime that is a fact.
???

If BLM existed in the 1990's you know what neighborhood they would NEVER COME TO?

In the 1970's crime in NYC was terrible, NYC was the biggest shit hole

In my neighborhood in the 1970's most people didnt even lock their front doors
No need to.

If and when things get that bad again.

People will be begging for the John Gotti's in the world to open a social club in their neighborhood.

. Well I certainly agree with you about BLM they are basically terrorists

How can a civilian be a rat when they didn't take some antiquated hoodlum oath? What a moronic thing to say.

None of the examples mentioned are "accidental" killings.

How on earth was he an asshole? He was in the process of moving house after being hounded out of the neighborhood, and they still killed him.

What an insanely childish and moronic take.

While we're on the subject of cucked mobsters spinelessly murdering civilians, didn't Nino Gaggi also kill a civilian because he got beaten up in a fair fight by him?

Vincent Governara was the kid's name.

Vincent Governara shouldn't have been going around breaking people's noses, especially not a made guy. Keep your hands to yourself, didn't his parents ever teach him that? And Mamaluke is right about the police, they make mobsters look like choir boys.

Moe Tilden, a rat is a rat, you don't have to be in the mob to be a rat, snitch, tattletale, and all the above. Arnold Schuster should've minded his own damn business, out snitching on people who are just trying to cut some corners and get their place around the big table, just because he's a working stiff square too afraid to go out on a limb and do anything about his shitty life. I am not in the least bit saddened by his demise. Mind your business and keep your nose where it belongs. And that's if the story is even true.

And mobsters shouldn't be killing people, selling drugs, and stealing from civic-minded members of society, so what's your point?

Beating someone in mutual combat is not a justifiable reason for murdering someone.

Deep down you know that.

Nino and the Gemini Crew devoured civvies on a weekly basis during the late Seventies and early Eighties. If someone went missing in Canarsie during that time, the police knew that odds were they were already dead.

Selling drugs? What about all the poison pharmaceutical companies push out on the public, and suppressing natural cures? Oh those drug dealers are alright because it's legal. And even the government sells the illegal narcotics, you really think so many narcotics could flow freely around the globe without governmental help? And stealing? Don't even get me started on how taxation is theft or how corporations lobby to have laws passed in their favor over the people. Mob guys gotta eat too, so what they refused to fall in line and break their backs at some shitty job with the rest of the zombies.

. Agreed. I remember a few years back Scott Favara did a small interview saying that they don’t even have a Grave to visit his father. Also his mother Janet had a mental breakdown after the murder and being chased out of the neighborhood by the Gotti women. To his credit Junior Gotti is the only one who had been truthful. He admits his father most likely did it and he also says that the Favara family were good people

The Favara hit was pretty sad. But how would most of you handle it if it was your kid and you had the power to make him disappear. Be honest now, don't lie. And keep in mind that you're not going to be thinking rationally, as you're doing now because it didn't happen to you.

I think the Gambinos should've given Favara a pass. I mean, just look at all the rats they give passes, and the rats don't even have to hide. Seems twisted that they would kill someone for an accident but let others live who sent people away forever, on purpose!

My girlfriend was killed in an auto accident when I was younger. I was devastated but it was simply an accident. The other driver was a man in his late twenties who was horrified and remorseful. As upset as I was I never felt the need to get “revenge”. Despite the fairy tales ales the Gotti women spew Favara wasnt drunk, didn’t run a stop sign, and didn’t have drunken parties to torture them. He wanted to apologize right away but was warned to stay away. He still went to Victoria Gotti and apologized and was met with a baseball bat. I mean Gotti was murderer so it’s not surprising he would end up killing Favara no matter what

Right. I was a passenger in a head-on collision in which the driver of the other car died. The other car veered onto our side of the road and swerved in front of us when we tried to dodge it. I don't know what happened but I suspect that he fell asleep at the wheel.

The driver of the car I was in still has PTSD to this day from what happened even though he didn't do anything wrong. The family of the deceased treated him coldly at the inquest (understandable as they were grieving and wanted answers).

The thing is, the deceased didn't suffer life-threatening injuries in the accident. He actually died in hospital due to a mishap during what should've been a routine operation.

Should I or the driver of my car have been taken out by his family in retribution for something that wasn't our fault, much like John Favara? Should the people who performed the deceased's surgery be taken out due to their negligence?

I don't think so.

I'd like to think that human beings are more empathic and understanding once they get past the stages of grieving.

You have no idea of what happened, so don't preach lies.

I don't think the Gambinos approved it, or even knew it was going to happen, it was Gotti's closest people and him acting on their own.

. I’m so sorry about that. I think anyone with half of a brain would realize that accidents happen and unfortunately in some cases tragedy occurs like I had to deal with. But being a rational person you don’t go out and get “revenge” on someone who is probably dealing with a lot of guilt and trauma already. That’s what separates regular decent people from lunatics

The nicky guido killing was also really sad. Wasn’t killed in front of one of his family members too?

Was DuPont the guy in that youtube surveillance video that was going around, who was basically running errands for all the made guys at the Ravenite? He looked like such a douchebag. Hopefully he's having a tough time in prison.

Yes DuPont was in the surveillance video of the Ravenite and also was in that clown video. They were pretty much all douchebags do not surprising 😂

Another one was in 1972 at the Neapolitan Noodle in Manhattan a few months after Crazy Joe was gunned down. 4 innocent were people were shot 2 were killed in mistaken identity

It was already mentioned on page one.

I know that. I was just giving the actual location

I also forgot about Joe Salerno’s father. He didn’t die but similar to the situation with Pete Chiodo’s sister it showed the whole “family is off limits” is a myth

Family is off limits, always has been. You take an exception and try to fit it to your agenda. How pathetic.

. Yeah that was pretty horrific. Obviously now the first or last woman killed by the mob but I agree she didn’t deserve that at all

You are literally talking about thousands of guys, and well over one hundred of years of history!

There are exceptions to every 'rule' in the book, and to every facet or conversation in life. We all know that. And it's no different with this conversation.

Have there been instances where innocents have been killed, whether by accident, or straight out intentionally? You bet there have been!

But that doesn't make it right. Nor does it mean that that type of behavior was accepted by the overall masses. Were the so-called rules broken? Of course. Clearly they were!

But when put into proper context, and taken in totality and in relation to the sheer 'number' of guys in the life, in comparison to the number of 'broken' rule instances where an innocent was victimized. I think the percentages speak for themselves.

There are always going to be rule breakers, and guys who will skirt the rules, regardless of whether its in the upper-world, or underworld. But I think despite the very nature of that life, and participants being rule 'breakers' to begin with. by and large few wives, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc, etc., (who were NOT in the life), were ever 'hurt' as the phrase goes.

The Chiodo's of the world are far and few between, in comparison to the volume of people in the life, and the daily incidents that take place. Anybody with common sense can see that.

Gaspipe Casso, Vic Amuso, and the few others who have stooped to that level in history were clearly off their rockers!

The average street guy wouldn't do that because then it would be a' free for all' against all relatives, of all people. Their relatives also. Thats why that rule was put in place back in the day to begin with.

They should have whacked Casso from the get-go, it would have saved a lot of people a lot of heartaches. Casso, and others with his mindset are animals, plain and simple!

So you think around 30 innocent people that were killed by the mob between the 70s-90s is a small number..you think that doesn’t make it a common practice..what would the society at large number be..when the majority of your membership are sociopaths it shouldn’t come as a surprise that a much higher percentage of the “mob population” was involved in killing innocents, had rape convictions and trafficked in drugs, children and women...there not a microcosm of society..less than 1% of the population are “sociopaths” I would say atleast 60% of the Made members in the heyday were sociopaths..not to mention what percentage were convicted rapists...
Whatever the exact percentages were they were much much higher than the society at large...

You mix up statistics wantonly (and on purpose) to suit your own narrative. So there is no sense in attempting to enlighten you, because like the man once said, "You can't fix stupid!"

What statistics did I mix up wantonly(and it wouldnt be on purpose because on purpose is the definition of wantonly, so the correct way to have said it, would have been to just say wantonly and leave it at that..
So please tell me which statistics did I mix up wantonly? Mind you 30 something murders by the New York mob alone was just what was listed here, there is undoubtedly many more that are not listed.....
there is a very discernable pattern with you where I use facts to back up my statements and ask you a question regarding them and your response is to insult me because you have no answer to them...

Not at all. I just call em as I see em. And many of your crazy rants are not deserving of a response. So I leave it alone and simply ignore you

. Thanks Louie I completely missed this post. All these incidents are Really sad and brutal

And each of those incidents were despicable in and or themselves. Nobody says no. But taken in totality by the number of how many incidents there were, they still pail in comparison.

one innocent death, is one too many. Thats for certain

. My father was also a NYC police officer beginning in 1976 so he was in the city when the mob were at the height of their powers. He knows a lot of these type of incidents that aren’t publicized as well.At least we agree that these actions are despicable so I give you credit for your honesty

One innocent death is one thing but 30...thats a pattern....

Gaspare Magaddino, an al leged Mafia triggerman sought by the local and international police in connection with mur ders and bombings here and in Sicily, was found slain on a Brooklyn sidewalk early yester day.

The police, called by neigh borhood residents who heard a shot at 5:15 A.M., said Mr. Magaddino, who was identified by the Federal Bureau of In vestigation, was apparently shoe as he walked past a panel truck found parked not far from the body, which lay in front of 2462 East Second Street, be tween Avenues X and Y, in the Sheepshead Bay section.

They said that Mr. Magad dino, who was dressed in con struction worker's clothes and carrying his lunch in a paper bag, had been hit in the head and right shoulder with by a “blast from a single‐barrel 12‐ gauge shotgun found in the truck, which had been stolen. Mr. Maggadino, it was learned after his slaying, had been liv ing about a block away, at 2538 East Second Street, with his second wife, Marie, 42, whom he married last September.

The 62‐year‐old Mr. Maggadino, who was wanted by Inter pol, the international police or ganization, in connection with several bombings in Sicily be tween 1965 and 1967, had no known convictions.

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He was a cousin of Stefano Magaddino, reputed Mafia boss of the Buffalo‐Niagara Falls area, and of Joseph (Joe Ba nanas) Bonanno, who is be lieved to have been, on and off, the Mafia boss of Brooklyn. Gaspare Magaddino was be lieved by the police in Queens to be the man who walked in to Cypress Gardens bar and res taurant in Ridgwood on a Fri day evening in November, 1967, and killed three diners— two Mafiosi and an “innocent bystander relative” — with a 45‐caliber submachine gun.

He was also sought by thel Nassau County police for the 1964 killing of Albert Galente, a 47‐year‐old cement worker believed to have been involved with gambling. Mr. Magaddino was believed to have left the United States for Sicily after that killing. He also was wanted by the United Staes Naturaliza tion and Immigration Service for having re‐entered the coun try illegally.

Yeah no matter what the actual number was it’s pretty clear civilians were certainly not “off limits” so that is a myth

Then on Sunday, Vincent Depippo, 42, and his nephew, Neil Nasto, 21, both reportedly associates in the Colombo family, were shot in their parked car in Bath Beach. Law-enforcement officials say that the killings had all the marks of a mob execution.

Most victims in the violence were low-ranking mobsters, but some have been innocent bystanders, and some businesses have closed because of the violence. In late November 1991, three people were injured, including a 4-year-old girl, when they were struck by a car driven by a man fleeing a mob ambush in Bensonhurst.

Days later, Matteo Speranza, an 18-year-old cashier, was gunned down behind the counter of the Wanna Bagel store at 8905 Third Avenue in Bay Ridge. The police concluded that Mr. Speranza was killed by mob executioners who apparently had intended to kill another store employee.

My two cents, as tragic as Mary Bari's death is, and it is tragic, I don't get the drop dead gorgeous part. In reality it's not important but it was mentioned so I just wanted to say my definition of drop dead gorgeous is very different than some of you. Again, her death was tragic I agree.

. Like you said it’s irrelevant what she looked like. The fact it it was tragic but just disgusting

So call me a shallow, sexist, typical male, you guys are killing me here for admiring one of the more attractive female victims, in my humble opinion. While no victim deserves the heinous murders of the LCN, some are more memorable than other's, even if it was just because she was little prettier in most men's eyes.

. I wasn’t criticizing you. I’m a male too so I recognize a beautiful woman even though I am happily married. What I was trying to say was it doesn’t matter if she was beautiful or just average she didn’t deserve to be killed

No worries I'm from Brooklyn, sometimes I get a little loud.

. It’s cool. I’m a fellow New Yorker so I get it.

So you're buying? 😁😁😁

. Sure why not 😂

You're a gentleman and a scholar
and you make the women holler.
You're a good man Crusher 👍

@CNote Thank You I appreciate the kind words!!!

its equally tragic when anyone dies for any reason but especially just a little bit more so if theyre young and beautiful....I see the same things with drug addiction the biggest tragedies especially with heroin and percocets that I see the most often are the talented and the beautiful....its a shame.......

. Yes that’s true. I’ve known a lot of attractive and talented people as kids that ended up getting involved in drugs. Some were able to clean up while others weren’t so lucky

I don’t think it’d be surprising that a criminal organization would at times and probably more times than any of us would possibly know, take the extreme action of killing regular, normal, civilians. For many years a major part of the business was shaking down innocent, regular business owners. Committing robberies and burglaries of business owners and others.

I can only imagine the number of innocent people caught in killings back in the 20s, 30s, 40s, etc. The news articles of violence back then read similar to the mayhem one reads about happening today in parts of the Bronx (Tremont, Hunts Point, University and Morris Heights) and other parts of city seeing plague of gang violence and shoot outs in the streets.

. Absolutely. We only know of a small number of what was probably many more innocent victims

Alan Kaiser did not beat up Gravano. He was an innocent teenage kid...who wanted to live.

How was Favara an asshole? Junior Gotti of all people seems to disagree with you.

You know who ARE assholes? John Gotti and his wife. Maybe keep an eye on a little boy when you let him on a dirt bike in a populated area with lots of street traffic.

. Exactly

I will always feel very bad for the Favara Family. You’re correct even Junior admits that they were a good family and seems pretty disturbed by his disappearance. Now is he being genuine? That I can’t say fir sure BUT his crazy sisters/mother admit they wanted the guy dead and lie about Gotti’s involvement in it

The sisters were raised by a lying, cheating criminal who had multiple girlfriends and kids out of wedlock w his mistresses. Not surprising that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree...Junior is the only one that wasn’t completely brainwashed by the father...how his kids even adore there father is beyond me...there’s no way his kids don’t have incredible resentment towards him. The father was either in prison when they were growing up or sleeping until 12 and staying out until 4am. When did he even spend time with them except for dinner a couple nights a week for an hour or 2....
Junior said it himself “our fathers never spent time with us, he would bring us to the club and then they would be gone and we would be hanging out with grown men we began to emulate”. “My father loved me but how much could he have really loved me to put me with all these wolves”

. Cant disagree with anything you said. I remember a few years ago Scott Favara did a shirt interview saying that “We don’t even have Grave to go pay our respects to our father”.

It is not an area with a lot of street traffic, and Favara may have been speeding, Worse was his reaction, blaming the kid laying dead in the street, then throwing parties in his backyard after.

Gravano once said he killed another teen after a fight, if Kaiser is the one who went after him when he was going to shoot the motorcycle guy who beat him up (Discussed by Gravano in a recent video) then Kaiser was crazy.

They could not get away with killing innocents back then. They did not do drive bys, they would go right up to a target and shoot them. It was different times. As far as killing innocents they shook down, that is a myth. First off, most people they shook down were others in rackets like theirs. Second, they could not go around killing innocents as you think, if they had they would have been wiped out by law enforcement right away. Vincent Coll did kill a child in a drive by, one of the rare exceptions.

. The reality was that it was a simple accident. They were doing work in that particular area and had a few dumpsters in the street. The kid just happened to dart out from behind the dumpster in front of Favaras at the exact worst moment. He wasn’t speeding, he wasn’t drunk, he wasn’t cursing at the kids corpse. Those were just bullshit lies Vicky Gotti said just like she claimed her father had nothing to do with his death lol. Even Junior Gotti himself said he liked the Favara family

By the way to all the people on their moral high horses, the police kill way more innocent civilians on a regular basis. The only difference is they get away with it easier. Many have also dealt drugs and almost the entire NYPD was shaking people down until Serpico exposed them. Beat cops used to make every store or business on their beat give money each wee, plus free goods or food.

You were not there, I was no their, Victoria Gotti was or she spoke to people who were. Also, he did not "dart" out as far as you know. There were also other children out on that street. I think 30 years ago Vicky Gotti must have tossed a drink in your face after a failed pick up attempt,and you still are not over it. Her name comes up and you pop up right away calling her names.

. This was the article I was talking about with Scott Favara. My heart goes out to that family.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/favara-son-dad-accidentally-killed-gotti-boy-no-grave-visit-father-day-article-1.127324%3foutputType=amp

One does not need to be on a moral high horse to call John Gotti, Sammy Gravano, or any of these other guys assholes.

One minute you complain about people bringing up killings from the early days, then you deflect to whataboutisms about police, then you stretch that back to pre Serpico days. There's nobody on here saying cops are all saints. There's nobody sticking up for the scumbag ones. Can you see the difference between that and you?

It was a little kid, unsupervised, on a mini bike. They dart everywhere they go, it's the nature of the beast. I've been that kid. I was lucky enough to have people watching me and kick my ass or take away the bike. Anywhere around street traffic and residential areas is the WORST possible place for a kid to be riding.

As far as innocent people getting killed by mobsters in the old days, of course it happened. Mistaken identities alone would have happened back then just as they have throughout recent history. These guys are and always have been, for the most part, dumb gangster thugs. They are not fucking Rhodes Scholars.

Agreed. The whole “police are way worse than the mob” was a shot at me because she knows I come from a cop family. I just ignore her because it’s just silly at this point

I don't complain, I may disagree with them. Unlike them I don't start saying they are pedophiles of child porn sellers. The cops do kill way more civilians than the mob. Also look at the NYPD's history. JCrusher keeps saying his after father was a cop, and that gives him mob knowledge. Whatever. As for no one sticking up for "scum bag" cops , the NYPD hates Internal Affairs and calls them the rat squad and worse. so cops don't want other cops reporting their crimes and there are many. Read up on it and see.

Thats very true

If cops dont want other cops reporting their CRIMES, then they are CRIMINAL Cops. They have removed themselves from the main body of police through deliberate actions of their own. Of course they wouldn't want anyone reporting their CRIMES because they are CRIMINALS. That's how CRIMINALS act.

Of course cops kill more civilians, look at the sheer numbers and what their job entails. I suspect you meant to say innocent civilians, which for the same reasons, I agree I'm sure it's more on a yearly basis. Pieces of shit are pieces of shit whether they're wearing a badge, a suit, or a Reebok sweat suit.

Well put AC, and even handed in your assessment. whether or not someone agrees with you, you put forth your viewpoint intelligently. bravo

Every profession has some bad apples that’s just apart of life. But the vast majority cops are not only honorable but great people too. I’ve know so many through my life as well as their families. When it comes to the mafia I’m not saying every single one is a psychopathic killer BUT they are all criminals that’s just a fact

Lol. It's their 'vocation' and job description. but for many thats all it is. As you say, good and bad in all walks of life. And by the nature of their job description, the break the law. thats fact. No one disputes that

This.......100%. ..cops also made very little money especially in the day, like 10k a year or less(doesn’t justify corruption) and New York was one city doesn’t mean the police were corrupt all over the country . Not to mention they’re were hundreds of thousands of cops, the amount of innocent civilians killed per capita was very low compared to the amount of cops vs 3 or 4 thousand Made members and plenty of civilians murdered throughout the country... too many made members were like a Tommy Agro...these guys weren’t exactly savings cats from trees..and there needs to be a distinction between made members and your friendly neighborhood bookie..Even the boss of the Bonnano Family today, look at his record , he got into an argument with his wife and shot her in the head and was convicted for it...I don’t think you can say the same for the heads of the NYPD...

. Absolutely. Back in the day my family struggled so cops didn’t make great money back then and had extra jobs on the side. My mother had to work as well. I got a job when I was 13 as did my siblings. Anybody who says the majority of police were/are corrupt doesn’t know what they’re talking about

Dominick Scialo, Christopher Furnari, Tony Mirra, Tommy De Simone and John Franzese's rape victims, and all the other rape victims of mobsters.

All the children who were sexually exploited by crime families, primarily in New York.

This child porn stuff is being way overblown on here.

Just because the cops did not make a lot of money was no excuse to shake down store owners or take bribes. They also were never starving.

Next you'll be saying the children liked it.

No, I say it is being overdone on here. There are several posts about rape, child molesting, and other stuff being put up. The idea that the Mafia was formed to rape, or all it's members molest is being pushed storngly by a small but loud group of posters. I said it is being overdone, if you disagree state why, don't insult me. I already have one person calling me a child abuser and other things for over a month on here, now you too.

Getting back to the Favara incident I also heard his wife also went through a mental breakdown when her husband vanished and obviously was brutally murdered. I’ve also heard that she was confronted and yelled at by Victoria Gotti Sr after her husband had already vanished although I can’t confirm it. Again I feel so bad for the Favara family they just unfortunately loved next to the wrong type of family

How did you hear all of this? Not looking to argue, but if you finish with "I can't confirm it" I feel bad for both families, both suffered.

No one said your a child molester but I did say that normally people who are molesters and traffickers defend those kinds of people...and you have a great obsession with defending it...your were givin thousands of pages of fbi files and you literally said that it was all lies...you said the files were made up..you keep saying everything is overblown...you keep saying DB is a gentleman...Let me ask you a question...why do you keep defending these people when there is ample evidence? why are you so adamant to defend people in the mob like kenneth Gaurino who caused a 13 yr old to die from internal bleeding because she was ripped apart in one of his child pornos?? He was caught on fbi wiretaps admitting to this on tape....DB and Theo Rothstein were indicted and convicted for it and the only reason the conviction was overturned was because an FBI agent shoplifted and went off the deep end, it doesnt mean the recordings of theyre own voices on tape admitting to it werent true....Why do you defend this so hard???? Why do you think its ok to say an innocent man who was kidnapped by 9 men and possibly chainsawed to death and murdered was "an asshole" as you called John Favara?????
If your a woman, how can you defend mobsters raping women.....dozens of mobsters were indicted and convicted of rape including many top mobsters..how do you defend this....Arlene Brickman was raped by a dozen mobsters at once and your response was to say she was a slut....how could any woman such as yourself defend these reprehensible actions???

. I never disputed that the Gotti’s weren’t heartbroken. I have a son so I understand the pain of that. However that’s no excuse to assault and brutally murder the guy over a tragic accident. They crossed the line by doing that to the Favaras. Also making up lies like him being drunk or them having “loud parties just to torture the Gotti’s”.

They never claimed he had the parties in order to torture the Gotti's, however he was very inconsiderate in having celebrations while they were mourning. .

. There is no proof he had “loud parties”. We do know he apologized and was assaulted with a baseball bat and still didn’t press charges. You say I’m making stuff up yet you claim that Favara is an “asshole” who was drunk and heartless? Even Junior Gotti himself has basically disputed that claim. Junior says he liked the Favara family and that the incident was an accident that could not be prevented . Anyway I can see this is going nowhere so agree to disagree

Was Favarra drunk when the accident happened?

. No

Jace , who may or may not be a woman is basically saying IF Favara had loud parties then that justifies him being murdered He also thinks since kids are run aways it justifies them being trafficked as sex slaves and in videos by the mafia for profit. There’s no reasoning with him. He’s a sick and twisted individual who has the mental maturity of a teenager

. The whole “loud drunken parties” thing was just a lie by the Gotti women in order to put the guys name through the mud. I don’t particularly like Junior Gotti but at least he has been more honest about the situation

In Response to JCriusher, who claimss I said Favara was drunk: I never said he was.

There you go again, you and JCrusher putting up one post after another with insults directed at me. I have been quiet the past 24 plus hours on this, so you 2 started up again,

. In fairness you did call him an “asshole”who basically had no remorse and held loud parties. By the way where did I insult you? I never called you a name. I do mostly ignore your posts because I don’t want to get into a silly argument. Like I’ve said for few years now let’s just agree to disagree and move on. It’s obviously our views on the mob and police differ dramatically so there is no reason to speak about it. Take Care

You said that I claimed Favara was drunk, and you and Louie sneak my name into your responses. I stopped posting to let things cool off, you decided to bring me back into it.

I also think I read that Scott Favara became a police officer but not 100 percent sure. I hope all is good with them after what they went through

You called him an asshole.....Did you ever meet John Favara? How do you know he was an "asshole"???

Stop your phony fake indignation.

Favara, after hitting the kid, got out of his car and started yelling at the kid laying in the street, then while the family was grieving he had parties in an adjoining back yard. That is behaving like an asshole.

I was running around Queens on the back of my buddy Tommy's Honda XL70 dirtbike too, we'd run from the cops from the 109th all the time and sometimes we'd ride on the sidewalk and cut back into the street but we knew there might be a car coming so you would know to merge in off a driveway instead of between cars horizontally into traffic. If you're gonna run the fucking street you better have some street smarts or you're gonna take a beating, get ripped off or both, lose a finger to fireworks or get killed by a car.

. Absolutely. Plus the truth is it was a simple accident. Favara by all accounts was a good guy who got murdered because of a tragic accident and tried to apologize

My first bike was a Honda XL 125. I love Hondas but fuck that bike.

You gotta source for that. Not Gotti bs but a police report or something

This

You said that I claimed Favara was drunk, and you and Louie sneak my name into your responses. I stopped posting to let things cool off, you decided to bring me back into it.
[/quote]



You called him an asshole.....Did you ever meet John Favara? How do you know he was an "asshole"???[/quote]


Stop your phony fake indignation.

Favara, after hitting the kid, got out of his car and started yelling at the kid laying in the street, then while the family was grieving he had parties in an adjoining back yard. That is behaving like an asshole.
[/quote]


So Jace based upon your continued support of the mafia trafficking children for profit, raping women and murdering innocent people like John Favara, your clearly an asshole. Do you think you should then be murdered? According to your sociopathic logic it would be justified, no???

. Great Post!!!

None have been released, but witnesses said so.

. You’re correct it’s just Gotti BS from the Gotti women. Junior had basically said the opposite and that the Favara family was a good family which seems much more accurate

So nothing. It’s not hard. If it was said it’d be there.

. . Exactly. All these “witness accounts” come from Victoria Gotti who is notorious for being a bullshit artist. Even Junior Gotti has basically disputed her claims and has said that the whole Favara family were good people and it was simply an unfortunate accident

JCrusher, you repeat the same thing over and over and over.... "Victoria Gotti is a notorious liar" According to who? Her brother john NEVER said the opposite about what happened. You keep bringing this up, it's several years now, it is your go-story anytime Gotti comes up.

Jace I’ve told you several times if you don’t like my posts then simply ignore them. The mods have also told you that a few times . I ignore your posts so why don’t you do the same, it’s better that way.

The mods have never said anything to me regarding you, unless it was years ago, when was this said to me by a mod? Maybe in your imagination. You're wrong as usual, but just blame Vickie Gotti as usual.

JCrusher AND jace -- I've had just about enough from you both! ONE more even minor incident and you BOTH will be put on a break no matter who "starts it." Do NOT argue with each other or me about it. Just stop already! FINAL WARNING - no further discussion!

[/quote]. . Exactly. All these “witness accounts” come from Victoria Gotti who is notorious for being a bullshit artist. Even Junior Gotti has basically disputed her claims and has said that the whole Favara family were good people and it was simply an unfortunate accident
[/quote]


JCrusher, you repeat the same thing over and over and over.... "Victoria Gotti is a notorious liar" According to who? Her brother john NEVER said the opposite about what happened. You keep bringing this up, it's several years now, it is your go-story anytime Gotti comes up. [/quote]


John Gotti Jr...on his 60 minutes interview and in other interviews says the Favaras were good people and that his father "probably did it, knowing John and how he felt about alotta things, especially his children..theres no way your gonna hurt one of his without hurting him hurting you...theres just no way"

JCrusher, you repeat the same thing over and over and over.... "Victoria Gotti is a notorious liar" According to who? Her brother john NEVER said the opposite about what happened. You keep bringing this up, it's several years now, it is your go-story anytime Gotti comes up. [/quote]


John Gotti Jr...on his 60 minutes interview and in other interviews says the Favaras were good people and that his father "probably did it, knowing John and how he felt about alotta things, especially his children..theres no way your gonna hurt one of his without hurting him hurting you...theres just no way"


[/quote]. Correct Louie. But correct me if I’m wrong both those quotes came from separate interviews. In the 60 minutes interview from 2010-11 I believe he said basically “Frankie darted out in the street in the middle of nowhere at the exact moment the car was coming”. Basically saying there was nothing Favara could have done to prevent it. He also never mentioned him being drunk or speeding which he wasn’t. Then in 2018 in The Godfather and Son documentary Junior did say how much he liked the whole Favara Family and it was a tragedy on both sides. Like I mentioned I don’t particularly like Junior but he has been honest about the incident unlike his sisters

Favara son whose dad accidentally killed Gotti boy has no grave to visit this Father's Day
By DAVID J. KRAJICEK
SPECIAL TO THE NEWS |
JUN 19, 2011 AT 4:00 AM

The story of John Favara's termination begins and ends with a blind spot.

Favara was a decent, working man from Howard Beach, Queens. He labored at the Castro Convertibles factory in New Hyde Park, L.I.

He and his wife, Janet, were loving parents of two adopted kids. They raised them on 86th St. in Howard Beach, a middle-class neighborhood roped off from the rest of Queens by the Belt Parkway.

Favara's back-fence neighbors were John and Victoria Gotti, parents of five children. His son, Scott, was a sleep-over buddy with the oldest of the three Gotti boys, Junior.

On March 18, 1980, Favara finished his shift at Castro and drove the 13 miles home. He turned off Cross Bay Blvd. onto 157th Ave. - and into the glare of the setting sun.

Ten minutes earlier, Frank Gotti, 12, had jumped on the minibike of a neighbor kid named Kevin McMahon. He buzzed up and down the streets and sidewalks, an elated boy astride an engine.

Six blocks from home, young Gotti motored through a home renovation job site on 157th Ave., where a construction dumpster was parked at the curb.

The boy drove the minibike into the street, just beyond the dumpster and into the sun-glare blind spot of Favara.

It was a tragic fatal accident.

In 1980, John Gotti was still five years away from front-page infamy. But Favara was well aware of Gotti's rising-star mob status.

By all reasonable accounts, he was horrified at having played a role in a child's death - whether he was a Gotti or not.

But the Gottis lived by their own rules, and authorities say that John Gotti's wife, Victoria, demanded an eye for an eye.

Two days after the accident, a woman called the local police precinct to announce that Favara would be "eliminated." Favara thought it was absurd when cops warned him. Those things only happen in movies, he said.

But he began getting anonymous threats by phone and mail. Victoria Gotti glowered across the back fence, incensed that Favara continued to drive the car that had killed her son.

A photo of Frank Gotti and a Mass card from his funeral were planted in Favara's mailbox. On May 22, someone spray-painted "MURDERER" on his car.

Favara sought advice from a boyhood friend whose father was a mob captain. He urged Favara to get rid of his car and leave Howard Beach - urgently.

Victoria Gotti delivered an exclamation point on May 28 when she clubbed him with a baseball bat in his driveway.

He put his house up for sale, and a buyer quickly materialized. The legal paperwork was expedited, and a closing was scheduled for the last day of July.

On July 25, John and Victoria Gotti left New York for a Florida vacation.

After work on July 28, Favara walked from the furniture factory to a diner two blocks away where he parked his car. A gang accosted him in the parking lot. He was shot, clubbed and wrangled into a van that sped off.

The man and his car were gone for good.

Detectives spoke with the Gottis when they returned from Florida on Aug. 4.

"I don't know what happened to him," Victoria said, "but I'm not sorry if something did. He never sent me a card. He never apologized. He never even got his car fixed." Her husband added with a shrug, "He killed my kid."

Over the years, mob stool pigeons offered a number of stories about Favara's fate - that he was buried in a Mafia graveyard in Ozone Park or entombed in concrete and dumped at sea.

The prevailing version now holds that mobster Charles Carneglia dissolved the poor man's remains in a barrel of acid in his macabre basement workshop. John Gotti's brother, Gene, is believed to have been among the mob button men who abducted and killed Favara.

To this day, the Gotti family has its own blind spot about the wreck, and it has embellished the details to suit its rationalizations of Favara's murder.

Police investigated and concluded that the driver had done nothing wrong.

But family wordsmith Victoria Gotti, Frank's sister, claims that Favara was drunk and speeding, that he had dragged the victim 200 feet, and then cursed him when he finally stopped. She said Favara also taunted her mother with "smug" grins over the fence.

"It's human nature to want revenge against someone that hurts those you love," she wrote. "I only wish Favara had shown some remorse - some respect. I believe he would be alive today if he had."

His clan will pay respects today to John Gotti, who died of cancer in prison in 2002. He lies beside son Frank in the Cloister Mausoleum at St. John's Cemetery in Queens, where he has lots of like-minded company - Lucky Luciano, Joe Profaci, Vito Genovese, Joe Colombo, Carlo Gambino and Carmine Galante.

John Favara was declared legally dead long ago. His widow, Janet, died in 2000. Their son, Scott, continues to battle the warped idea that his father deserved Gotti-inspired termination.

"He was a great man, more than anyone would ever know," Scott Favara told the Daily News a few years ago.

And today, for the 30th consecutive Father's Day, Scott Favara has no grave to visit

Yup I actually posted this article a few days ago. Very Sad

JC Crusher...terrible a fucking tragedy....

Absolutely Louie. I also feel bad for the wife Janet. She dealt with a lot of mental health issues after her husband disappearing and being chased out of the neighborhood

I'm on the Favara side, BUT, even if the neighborhood kid wasn't a mafioso's kid, I'm doing my best to get a different vehicle right away.

We don't know their finances or if that would have even been possible, but I would sure try. Then again, maybe he did try.

This is an area that shows the ruthlessness and bad side of law enforcement when it comes to groups targeted under RICO. We are to believe thet are the worst of the worst, as they often are, but when an innocent citizen runs afoul through chance, there is nothing in place to help them.

These things are so few and far between, would anyone seriously have a problem with some of our tax money helping him get a different car and asap into a different residence?

Instead it's most likely sorry can't help, since you are of absolutely no value to us and our case, unless they kill you. Then you have value. You have witnessed nothing.

With ALL the government in place, and the billions over the years in spending, there is nothing to help someone like this. So on one hand we are to trust government and DA's, yet when you need protection from the same group through no fault of your own, go fuck yourself.

If I'm wrong on any of this please enlighten me.

The account by Vcki Gotti published by the New York Post isn't as kind as Junior's.

METRO
Gotti: The day our boy was stolen away
By Post Staff Report

September 28, 2009 | 4:00am



TRAGIC LOSS: Frankie Gotti n mom Victoria's lap surrounded by siblings (clockwise from above left) Angel, John and Victoria. The boy was fatally mowed down on his bike at the age of 12 by a driver on March 18, 1980. The driver, a neighbor of the family, vanished months later.
Released from prison in 1977, John Gotti was quickly rising through the ranks of the Gambino crime family on his way to becoming “boss of all bosses.” Even in his home life, the underworld big shot knew how to throw his weight around. When his second son, Frankie, didn’t make the cut of his school football team, Gotti visited the coach, and later that day, the decision was reversed. But on March 18, 1980, as Frankie anticipated joining the team, Gotti family members’ lives would be changed forever. Here, in the second of four installments from Victoria Gotti’s new memoir, “This Family of Mine,” is the story of their tragic loss. Click here to see the Gotti family photo album.

The day before his first foot ball practice, March 18, 1980, my little brother Frankie, 12, was so excited he couldn’t eat or sleep. He took a shower and came running into my room and asked if he could borrow my hair dryer.

I, too, was in a rush. He was so impatient that he left the house with wet hair.

Later that afternoon, after school, he met a few neighborhood friends and went out to play. He couldn’t wait to tell them the news. He’d finally made the team.

Coming out of a McDonald’s near our house, I saw them on their bicycles.

I stopped and said something to him like, “It’s late and you know you have to be home for dinner at 5 or Mommy will be pissed.”

He nodded and took off down the avenue.

Mom was in the kitchen, preparing dinner and feeding my baby brother, Peter, then 4 years old. I ran upstairs to quickly change and head back to the kitchen to do my usual chores. I also relieved Mom and finished feeding Peter.

The phone rang four times before I was able to pick up the receiver. “Vicki, this is Marie Lucisano — your brother’s had an accident. Don’t worry.”

She went on to add, “He’s OK — I think he just broke his leg.”

Just as I was frantically tying my shoes, my mother came flying down the stairs sensing something was wrong.

“What’s going on?” she screamed.

“Frankie’s been hit by a car. Marie Lucisano called. It happened in front of her house,” I said.

Before I could even stand up, Mom was running the four or so blocks to the Lucisanos’ house on 87th Street. The ambulance was already on the scene and things were far worse than just a broken leg.

My brother had borrowed another kid’s minibike and was riding in a construction site near the side of the road. But that dreadful day, a drunken driver was speeding down the avenue and struck my brother.

The driver dragged him some 200 feet before angry neighbors stopped the car, pounced on his hood, and stopped him from crossing the avenue.

“Don’t you even realize you have a kid under the wheels of your f- – -in’ car?” one neighbor, Ted Friedman, recalled yelling out.

According to the neighbor, the driver, John Favara, then stopped the car. Another neighbor reached in and grabbed his keys, shutting the ignition off and pointed to my brother’s near-lifeless body under the front wheels.

My brother’s blood seemed to leave a trail down the entire block, leading up to the now-parked car.

Favara jumped from the car and started yelling, “What the f- – – was he doing in the street?”

According to the neighbor, “The driver of the car was angry, not remorseful.” Ted Friedman later told me the guy was belligerent — a real a- -hole until he realized the kid trapped under his wheels was John Gotti’s son. Favara then appeared to be “dazed and confused,” according to eyewitnesses.

My mother ran to Frankie, knelt and was cradling his head, screaming his name over and over, “Frankie, it’s Mommy — can you hear me? Frankie, Mommy’s here.”

Of all the things she could remember, it was “the look of abject fear in his eyes.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2009/09/28/gotti-the-day-our-boy-was-stolen-away/amp/

. I’m sure he did try. Just like those who may say “He should have moved away immediately”. Sadly real life Is not like the movies. When you have a family it takes time to find a new home and move no matter how fast you do it. I can tell you from experience. He still did it pretty damn quickly. Within four months he found a house and was about to buy it. He also tried several times to apologize and was assaulted by Victoria Gotti Sr. The poor guy was in a no win situation. Even by some miracle he was able to move his family out sooner Gotti would have still found a way to go after him. Remember Richard Red Bird Gomes was apart of the hit team so Gotti had help even outside the Gambino Family

Good find C-note. I wonder if there was a grand jury hearing for Favara? The Gotti's were obviously not the types to pursue charges so the DA may have let it go. Favara tried to flee, he should have been charged.

. Yeah Junior pretty much disputed this nonsense. She also claimed her father had “nothing to do with Favara’s disappearance”. 😂 Like any accident it was investigated and it was pretty clear it was just a unfortunate accident.

I don't think he did, he said the family was nice, huge difference. I have never seen him dispute it. I wonder if Ted Friedman ever got a chance to testify, or if any of those who stopped favor from fleeing did?

. Thank You for posting that article about Scott Favara. His quote about his fathers that “He was a good man more than anyone can ever know” was pretty heartbreaking

I've never heard of Richard Red Bird Gomez...?

Does anyone know if any of the witnesses statements were ever entered into any reports? I've never seen anything like that before...

Richard “Red Bird” Gomes was part of the Gerard Ouimette crew under Raymond Patriarca Sr and the NE Family.....Ouimette and Gotti Sr we’re very close..Patriarca Sr and Neil Dellacroce and John Gotti were also extremely close...Gotti Sr, Neil and Gerard Ouimette all backed Patriarca Jr as boss in the beginning....

. Louie explained it very well in the above post. Gotti was close with guys from Rhode Island mobsters affiliated with the Patriarca Family. I believe Patriarca’s grandson and Junior Gotti attended military school at the same time which is were Gotti and him would have meetings. Anyway Redbird Gomes was a killer and he was most likely apart of the hit team that killed Favara along with the Carneglia Brothers, Angelo, Willie boy, Tony roach

Redbird,Ouimette and Gotti Sr also all did time together at Lewisburg Federal Prison...

. Correct. I think I posted a picture not too long ago if Gotti meeting some of the RI guys including Redbird. I always imagine how fearful Favara must have felt hen that was happening.

9 on 1 against a 50 something year old civilian ..took a lot of balls ha
Not the first time. There’s a wiretap of Gotti talking about when he beat the shit outta of a guy he later found out was a cop. He said “ I stuck the gun in his mouth but he couldn’t talk, he was crying like a fucking baby”. His usual way of handling civilians ......

. Yeah he was a piece of shit you could tell that by listening to the jail tapes from the 90’s

He was fine on those tapes for guy doing life, and the tapes were supposed to not be released. The government decided what excerpts to release to the public (Unlawfully) in order to make him sound bad. The tape recordings were supposed to be to make sure he was not giving orders to outside mafia members, instead the real pieces of shit like the BOP and the FBI listened in and edited it, then released it to the media. What scum bags

Can you post a link of it?

. Absolutely. He also whined a lot on those jailhouse tapes to the point if it being annoying. The talking about “cutting the tongue out” of a classmate of his grandson bevstse the boy called their family gangsters which was accurate

Correct also told his daughter to tell “tell the mother, if this gets back to the grandfather, he’s nuts..he’ll stuff him in a barrel, do you wanna wake up in the morning and don’t see your son no more, is that what you desire, do you want us to cut his tongue out of his mouth”..this man of honor was talking about an 8 year old!

Every person doing time in a federal prison is told “your visits and phone calls are being monitored and recorded”.
And even though the videos were short they were mostly 3 straight unedited minutes of him just talking...he was a gutter street thug that was a witty and charismatic sociopath, veering between grandiosity and his feelings of inadequacy...the classing warring traits in predatory sociopaths

Jace does your husband or man speak to you that way?. Just wondering why “she” plays devils advocate no matter what...

. Absolutely Louie. Those jail tapes were hilarious. Also he would say things like “it would be an honor for people to be in my presence” 😂. That guy was some piece of work. I think Joe Coffey said it best “Gotti was a thug with an iq of a mothball but a thug” 😂

I commented on Gotti, not you, don't cross the line with me. How a boyfriend or anyone speaks t me is not something you should ask or bring up. Knock it off, I don't make i personal, please don't do it with me either .

Former Lucchese capo Paul Vario's rape victim.

Former Bonanno boss Carmine Galante's alleged rape victim.

Alleged Bonanno boss Michael Mancuso's murdered wife.

These aren't lowly associates. Along with guys like Furnari, Scialo and Franzese, these are guys at the very top of the mafia food chain committing crimes against women.

Then you have Vincent Gigante's brother diddling children, and no doubt having his brother help hush it up.

Yet guys like NYMafia will skim over all this while waxing lyrical about how great these people are.

. Thanks for the names Moe. Yup as we have seen from other examples women certainly weren’t off limits either

9 on 1 against a 50 something year old civilian ..took a lot of balls ha
Not the first time. There’s a wiretap of Gotti talking about when he beat the shit outta of a guy he later found out was a cop. He said “ I stuck the gun in his mouth but he couldn’t talk, he was crying like a fucking baby”. His usual way of handling civilians ......[/quote]

Makes you wonder what you would do under the same circumstances. I read where Favara applied for and received a C.C.W. permit and had a gun but apparently wasn't packing it at work and/or they got the drop on him, supposedly they shot him in the legs first then lifted him off the ground and into the van.
Maybe it's different when you have kids and a family to consider but I don't think you'd be able to hide for very long and they'd catch up with you sooner or later. First thing I would do is drive down the nearest state with a Gun Show and load the fuck up, you're going to start shit, Word to my Mother let's fucking rock. I'm going to get some serious hardware and sell my life with as many motherfuckers as I can take with me

Bump

Makes you wonder what you would do under the same circumstances. I read where Favara applied for and received a C.C.W. permit and had a gun but apparently wasn't packing it at work and/or they got the drop on him, supposedly they shot him in the legs first then lifted him off the ground and into the van.
Maybe it's different when you have kids and a family to consider but I don't think you'd be able to hide for very long and they'd catch up with you sooner or later. First thing I would do is drive down the nearest state with a Gun Show and load the fuck up, you're going to start shit, Word to my Mother let's fucking rock. I'm going to get some serious hardware and sell my life with as many motherfuckers as I can take with me


[/quote] yeah I agree it’s a very tough situation to be in. I don’t think Favara thought they would go that far over an unfortunate accident. I mean his Son Scott was friends with Junior. However once he tried to apologize and was assaulted with a baseball bat he truly knew how crazy the family was and really tried to get his family out of there.

Is anyone else surprised the police or feds didn't put a tail on Favara for about a month?

. They did warn him of a potential threat. In reality cops can’t put a tail on just anyone. Gotti knew well enough that the feds were using surveillance on him. In 79 they were serving the Ravenite for se real months. That’s why Gotti took his family to Florida to crate an alibi and he orders his guts to take out Favara while he was away

Ettore Zappi had a piece of the Castro Convertible furniture store that Favara worked at as a manager, Favara approached him after he was assaulted while trying to apologize to the Gotti's. Zappi advised him to leave town or get a gun and kill John Gotti. He should have opted for door number two, what do you think those 9 guys would have done if Favara had greeted them with a sawed off Mossberg in the pocket of his overcoat instead of trying to run away bleating after they shot him. "Please, my wife."

The can’t do it without evidence of a specific threat or it can fall into harassment. The rules go both ways or they can be misused. Yes it’s a sad and fucked up story but the police aren’t the ones at fault here. That poor bastard was a dead man the moment his car hit the boy

I'm in no way saying it the fault of LE. The mob is responsible for the mob.

But, theycan do anything they want. Whether it stands up in court is a different issue.

I can't imagine Favara turning down surveillance but we'll never know.

Was Race Ute a location near gottis club? Or typo?

How involved were the feds at this time frame?

it was a typo. I meant the Ravenite

. Exactly. The cops did try and warn him but they arent allowed to follow a citizen without just cause

Does gotti have younger brothers still in the mob? Weren't there two that were younger than him?

Also is it true Gotti was supposedly going to be paid $200,000 for disposal of the Lufthansa getaway van (which stacks Edward's fucked up)?

Yeah Gene, Richard, and Vincent were all in the mob. Gene was the first Gotti to actually get made which infuriated John 😂

Sure and apologies. I misinterpreted your post. A guess would be it wasn’t offered, but that’s more hunch than anything concrete. Who knows how the powers that be rank things sometimes. And maybe Favara just didn’t realise the danger he was really in.

Me- I’d like to think I’d have been gone that night and in Mexico 2 days later, but it doesn’t work like that. Most people don’t get the evil others can do so easily, and I doubt he’d really processed it until the moment they came for him.

. I think you’re right. Favara probably did t think the Gotti’s would take things that far especially since their children were friends and they obviously knew each other well. The baseball bat incident was when Favara really understood that it was time to get away from those people. But again it’s very hard to move your family out all of a sudden. Selling s house, finding a house, new job, schools etc.

But they follow and put people under surveillance all the time and if they did not want to do it without cause, they could have easily went to any judge and gotten an order to secretly watch him. They chose not to follow him.

There are witnesses who went on record in this story, I go by this account of how it went down. Everything else is speculation

. It was just such a bad luck situation. The guy did nothing wrong. The kid just happened to far from behind a dumpster at the exact moment he was passing by. Sadly the kids parents were lunatics and Favara was doomed. When I read that article from Scott Favara my heat goes out to that Family

He knew exactly how much trouble he was in, he was warned by Ettore Zappi, applied for and received a Concealed Carry Weapons permit and had purchased a gun. So how was he unaware of the life threatening situation he was in, in fact he was somewhat casual about responding, actually. He could've gotten a loan to move out and pay it back after selling the house, he could've gotten rid of the car the next day, he could have better armed himself given that he chose to remain at his house and in close proximity to the family of the child whose death he contributed to. Also, screw that victim shit, these guys weren't Seal Team Six or SAS or Spetsnatz. They were a bunch of overweight, out of shape soft street thugs who only succeeded in ambushes against unaware victims.

Not saying he was totally unaware. He obviously had his antenna up but he did t think they would go that far over an unfortunate accident. He didn’t think he would be assaulted after trying to apologize. Like I said in a previous post real life it’s not like the movies

. Yeah like I mentioned in my OP the Ragucci killing really showed the true brutal nature of the mafia. Kid was just 18 years old trying to work his way through college and ends up chased by probably the most fear led mob guy in NY at the time and absolutely obliterated with bullets.

You do understand how a police report works or did your non exsistent husband not explain it to you. If there were eye witnesses that saw this. They would have told the police..these were legit neighbors, they wouldn’t have kept it to themselves and then conspired with the Gottis to murder Favara...in the police report The Friedman’s told the police the driver did nothing wrong...Victoria Gotti is just trying to explain away her dad murdering an innocent man... They claim how great of a man they’re father was and how loyal he was and how he loved other races but in the prison tapes which was Gotti Sr interacting with his grown children. He trashes Jewish people, blacks by calling them ni**ers, he threatens to murder an 8 year old and cut his tongue out , he tells his own 8 year old grandkid he will give him a ass kicking he will never forget becuase he wouldn’t agree with Gotti Sr that anyone that plays professional sports is a Garbage Pail...not once did Victoria say to Gotti Sr..dad your acting so out of character today..they say he was a great husband and father...he had loads of girlfriends, wasn’t home cause he was out fucking them, couldn’t spend time with his kids cause he was fucking his other girlfriend and having a kid with her....and when he wasn’t doing that, he was either killing people, gambling or doing time in prison...deep down and they may not admit it to the public or maybe even themselves but deep down they hate and resent him...

My "non existentnt husband? You did this crap twice in this topic, I'll get a warning though. What BS. Did I mention you? Did I say a damn thing to you? I don't even address you, I have not done so in days, maybe more. Geoff the blind says he can't see these things, Turnbull ignores it, then I get warned. Knock this crap off.

. Exactly Louie. As we know the Gotti’s aren’t exactly known for their honesty 😂. But like we have both mentioned Junior himself has disputed his sister’s crazy claims. Also you’re right about Gotti as a father. He spent his time either in jail or on the streets killing, robbing, scheming, and sleeping around. They may not admit it publicly but He was an awful father. I think even Junior said something up to the effect of “My father couldn’t have lived me if he pushed me into this treacherous life”

Clearly, the article she wrote is to justify her families murder of Favara. John Gotti was a product of his environment, same as the thugs who now reside in E. New York. Although he was able to rise out of it, he did so by embracing the worst characteristics of the area and by doing so, allowed it to permeate the culture of his home and family. Though Gotti made sure his children were well educated, any aspirations to the military, civil service or politics were deflected towards the lifestyle he had chosen for himself and his family.

Absolutely the article was just a way to justify his murder in her mind and paint him as a horrible remorseless human being even though that is nonsense.

The mob has never hurt anyone innocent. It's against their rules. They have ethics and honor.

. Completely False. Dominick Ragucci? Nicky Guido? Ethics and honor? That made me laugh 😂. People have literally given tons of examples on this thread about innocent victims in America and in Italy

No matter what side of the fence you’re on it’s pretty clear from all the examples people have given that regular innocent citizens certainly are not “off limits”.

Both were killed by accident, both were tragic, but not done on purpose. Dominick Ragucci is a sad story, but Demeo was acting on his own, not as a Cosa Nostra member when he mistook Ragucci for a Cuban hitman who he thought was stalking him. Innocents are off limits by rules, but those 2 were mistaken identity. It is tragic either way.

The Ragucci and Nicky Guido killings along with many others really showed how ruthless the mob truly is. Obviously many have commented on what happened to the Favara family is truly sad.

I pointed out that they were not on purpose, or in the Ragucci case done on orders of the mob, but by a rough DeMeo. If the bosses were ordering civilians killed that is one thing, and you may give one example. What happened in the cases cited were not that. I said they were tragic. Even Favara was done without approval by Gotti, and as you or another here said, Favara went to a mobster he worked for instead of getting police protection, which h he turned down, and was told to get a gun and strike first.
He apparently was not the civilian he has been portrayed to be.

From another poster on page 7:

"Ettore Zappi had a piece of the Castro Convertible furniture store that Favara worked at as a manager, Favara approached him after he was assaulted while trying to apologize to the Gotti's. Zappi advised him to leave town or get a gun and kill John Gotti"


That does not sound like something a civilian would do. Plus he was close enough to Etore Zappi for them to have that conversation, he was no innocent civilian. I'm glad this thread continued, we learn more as we go along.

. Yeah this article is one of the saddest ones. I think I mentioned Scott may have become I cop but I’m not sure. But yeah just bad luck that they happened to be next door neighbors with a maniac

I'm really getting tired of this petty bullshit! I've warned you BOTH (and everyone) before, but apparently I'm not the only "blind" one, huh? Louie, stay on topic and stop with the jabs -- for the last freakin' time -- or that'll be that for you, or anyone else (including jace)!! Or use the IGNORE feature in your settings and you'll never see the person again, how about that?

Yes, he was an innocent civilian. Being given advice does not make you guilty of anything. What a ridiculous thing to say.

He was a victim of circumstances due to a tragic accident. The mafia are bad people. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

. Exactly. Great Post!!!

I'm fine with you questioning my post, that's what this site is all about, discussing events that occurred with numerous perspectives on the same event(s).
Fact is Favara had a long relationship with Zappi.
"Favara was also a childhood friend of Gambino crime family caporegime Ettore Zappi, although he chose to remain legitimate.." https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/John_Favara
"https://thenewyorkmafia.com/2019/10/20/ettore-zappi/

I was not questioning it CNote. I believe it.

He could have gone to to the FBI if he was a civilian, hewn to a mafia member he worked for. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

. Absolutely. He was a good family man who unfortunately was involved in a tragic accident that was unavoidable. Sadly the kid was the son of a maniac

What would do you think the FBI done for him? Provide security or place him in the WPP and move him and his famiky into a new identity, at taxpayer expense, without ever testifying or providing the government with any kind of useful information, not likely. I think he should have sold the car asap,, borrowed money, moved out and pay back the loan after the house was sold. The NYPD issued him a Concealed Carry Permut and he bought a gun but apparently didn't have it when he was abducted.

Just because he worked at a place part owned by a wiseguy, does not mean he was a "connected" guy, not in the criminal sense.

. Exactly we agree

. I’m glad you brought this up. Knowing mobsters doesn’t mean you’re involved or that you are “fair game”. My grandfather knew it was friendly with many wise guy. However he was a legit ad they come and would always stress the importance of living a lawful and legit life and never getting involved in mob life. It doesn’t matter that Favara was friendly with the Zappi family. He was a legit family man who sadly was involved in an accident that occurs every day. Unfortunately for him Frank Gotti’s father was a nutjob

I never heard that Favara has a "nut job" father. As for how he handled the Gotti issue, he went to a mobster he knew, and did turned dome police and FBI help. plus got advice to get a gun and kill Gotti. He is sounding more and more like he was no legitimate person. By the way, is this topic going to go on forever? I don't get people who keep bumping a controversial topic up every time things calm down.

. I think you summed it up perfectly. Just because you may know a mob guy doesn’t mean you’re involved in that life or are “less innocent”. The task bad guys are the mob who brutally killed him

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/men-who-paralyzed-woman-in-botched-mob-hit-out-on-parole-1.793667

Not sure if someone posted this already, but Louise Russo was paralyzed in a sub shop in Toronto because she was standing in front of the target of a mob hit in broad daylight. That is outrageous.

. Thank You for posting this Mike. Outrageous and Sad indeed

Paralyzing an innocent woman...just another day at the office for a man of honor...

Absolutely Louie. It’s just the reality of that life. That’s why there are so many examples of it. I appreciate all those who have shared these tragic incidents and their thoughts about it!!!

The ‘ndrangheta has murdered children on many occasions, not just accidentally by stray bullets, but on purpose, just to get at their adult family members.

2 examples:

In 1975 in Cittanova, 12-year-old Domenico Facchineri and 9-year old Michele Facchineri were murdered by members of the Albanese-Raso ‘ndrangheta group, opposed to the Facchineri family.

In 1973 in Crotone, 10-year-old Salvatore Feudale was murdered together with his brother Domenico, as retaliation against their father, who had killed the son of the ‘ndrangheta boss Luigi Vrenna.

Some people may say that “these are only a few cases picked out”, but imo even 1 single child murder is a very big tragedy. There is no excuse for whoever kills a child, and in these cases they were even targeted with premeditation, they were not “collateral damage” hit by stray bullets (which still would be no excuse).

In my opinion, It’s also quite disgusting that Luigi Vrenna, who ordered this 10-year-old boy killed, was treated with respect even by the police lieutenant Tito Baldo Honorati, who arrested him…Some submissive people worship these “godfathers” no matter what they do, even when they kill children.

Absolutely Dwalin. Thank You for your post!!! Yes sadly kids/teens have certainly been victims of the mob and just “accidentally “

The ‘Ndrangheta is another organization, they are not part of it, but since you include them, lets add Columbian and mexican gangs., Arabic gangs. Bloods, Crips, and everyone else? Of course not. they don't belong.

I also would put Phyllis Burdi on the list. Just be safe she was a drug addict doesn’t mean she deserved to be murdered and dismembered like that. We know Tommy Pitera blamed him for his wife/girlfriend’s Celeste death but the truth of the matter is she is as responsible for her own actions. She chose to get involved with drugs and it eventually killed her

The topic title talks about "mob victims". The "mob" is a term that is a little vague, so I assumed all Italian organizations would qualify. Otherwise, it would have been specifically "Cosa Nostra victims". But we are getting too much into semantics here imo. Theoretically, one could also say "Russian mob", "Chinese mob" or whatever, it becomes confusing.

I agree, Tommy Pitera was a real psycho...More a serial killer than strictly a mobster imo, considering his other murders too.

I read somewhere the police approved a carry permit for him, (nearly impossible to get in NYC), so the gun was legal. Going to a wiseguy for help may have been out of fear and desperation rather than following some underworld code.

. Agreed. Just because he knew the Zappi family died that mean he is less innocent. No matter what crap the Gotti women spew he wasnt a heartless man who was connected. By most accounts he was a legit a great family family who sadly was involved in an unfortunate accident that was unavoidable

. Agreed. Some monsters enjoy killing more than others but still it shows how far they will go for money or vengeance

Also keep in mind that the Favara killing was 40 years ago. This was just before RICO began to be wielded as a weapon against gangsters. Law enforcement didn't quite have the upper hand yet. Any person in the NYC area (especially a wiseguy neighborhood) would have feared the mob no matter what the police said. Favara probably asked that guy for advice because he was scared. With good reason.

I get fed up with people like you trying to say that the only reason the mob got away with murder is because it was before RICO. There are plenty of new age unsolved mob murders, like Anthony Seccafico and Ralph Coppola to name a few.

RICO was enacted in 1970, it's first case was against the Hells Angels in California 1979 and the first LCN prosecution was in 1980 against Funzi Tieri. RICO had no impact on the Favara murder, that was a vendetta killing straight up.. Hell hath no wrath like a mother's vengeance, believe that fellas.

. Although you make some good points RICO was implemented in the 70’s. However you’re still correct back in 1980 law enforcement didn’t have the type of resources they eventually had some years later to really taken in the mob at that time. I’m sure Favara was scared specially after being assaulted after trying to apologize again

That goes to show how Fucked up law enforcement is. A civilian that they knew was killed bc of Gotti and they didn't give any pressure on getting informants to nail him. Instead they spent millions on putting him away but left the family without any closure. That poor family had to watch the guy win over and over again for crimes not even related to Favara. And they reward guys like Gravano a fresh start. They should've swooped up the Favara's and gave them a fresh start.

. That’s really on the FBI not the regular police department. I’ve been very open about how many(not all) in the FBI have done things incorrectly. For example a guy like Lin DeVecchio I feel just as bad as any mobster. They did pressure informants but it seems like it was a situation where the participants involved didn’t discuss it openly. From what we know Gotti, Angelo,Tony Roach, Redbird Gomes, and the Carneglia brothers were involved. We don’t know for sure if Willie Boy was but he was also an informant at the time so there was no way he would admit to killing an innocent civilian

The government couldn't afford to place everyone who was threatened by organised crime in the witness protection program. What should have happened was some detectives from the Organised Crime Bureau go down the Bergin and told Gotti that if anything happened to Favara, they were going to be so far up his asshole he wouldn't be able to fart in the 5 boros without them getting a whiff, all his rackets would come to a halt. Maybe then you could buy time for Favara to be able to safely move his family to a safe location.

My point was that back then the mob had not yet had it's power severely weakened. Even today most people in the NYC area would have be scared shitless to have a problem with a mob guy, back then, twice as much.

. Very True. Back in 1980 in that neighborhood would never be any to cross a mob guy. Even those who “supported” Gotti did it mostly out of fear after what happened to Favara

Not true, they loved him there for the most part. His supporters were even fanatical about him. He never had to force them, he couldn't. You may disagree with their feelings, but you have to know they were not scared or coerced.

. Your post was correct and it definitely applies. The Italian mob, Russian mob, and yakuza have all proven to be ruthless and obviously as we have seen in this thread have no issue killing innocent civilians. Great Post 👍

. Yeah god knows how many innocents they killed. That crew were maniacs. I mean there are a lot more mob victims in general that are not publicly known

Hold on, I call BS on both tf you. The names mentioned were involved in porn, a stolen car ring, and other activities. The yer not civilians, so quit adding names, Next we'll have "Tom Billotti, a hard working chauffeur, killed for no reason by the Mafia while driving Paul Castellano " That is where this is headed.

Lol, nice try Mr. Prosecutor, I agree with your categorization of disqualifying activities but let me drop these little jewels in your ear.
1.Patrick Penny was the witness to the Eppolito murders
2. Khalid Daoud was an Kuwaiti exporter who was wondering why he couldn't find any cars to export to Kuwait and brought along Ronald Falcaro for support, both were innocent and legit.
3. Frederick Toddaro owned a film developing business but he was legit, it was his nephew who was drawn by the potential profits from porn. When the old man signed over the business to his nephew to avoid liability, he signed his own death warrant.

They were not legit, read the indictments.

If you have factual, credible evidence to support your statement you should share it.

. Exactly! Many posters along with yourself have provided great examples backed up by proof

You put up anything, as I said, read the indictments. I could put up any proof and you would say it was irrelevant, It's a waste of time, Maybe next month, this topic will still be here with you giving it mouth-to-mouth resuscitation any time it is quiet a few days. Now tell us about how Paul Castellano was an innocent victim of Gotti.

To be fair I will try:


Khaled Doud & Ronald Falcaro October 12, 1979 Both were lured to Frederick DiNome's auto shop in East Flatbush, Brooklyn then shot, killed and dismembered for being competitor of stolen car ring and suspected of cooperating with law enforcement against DeMeo.

. Absolutely. A certain person may not want to hear it but the mob are ruthless and have shown they will kill civilians.

. I’m glad you brought up Patrick Penny. Another innocent victim in the wrong place at the wrong time

Ok, ok, I can take a hint, my apologies for not responding sooner.
If you pull out your handy copy of Murder Machine and turn it to page 243, the first page of chapter 15. At the bottom of the page, it details how Ronald Ustica encountered Khalid Daoud and Abdullah Hassan at the Port of Newark and offered them discount stolen car. Hassan accepted and became the point man in Kuwait. Daoud declined and went into competition with the Kuwait stolen car operation, legitimately. However, when Daoud was unable to locate any used Caprices to purchase, he went over to Pier 262 where DeMeo and Crew had there next shipment to Kuwait on the dock. Daoud became suspicious and began writing down VIN numbers when he encountered Ronald Ustica and confronted him about the stolen car operation and indicated he was going to the police. Instead he and Ronald Falcaro became the second double murder in less than a year for Demeo. I have attached page 243, 244 and 246 from Murder Machine for your review.

I was not hinting towards you CNote, I was responding to the kook who wants to keep posting the same thing over and over till everyone takes to their knees to pray with him, or whatever his goal is. Thanks for The Murder Machine link, but you did not have to go to the trouble, I read it, thanks anyway. There are several versions, some saying they were in the business, others saying different, we can never know for sure.

The thanks go to you partner, this is an exchange for information. I don't pretend to know everything and if you have some info I can learn from, I welcome the input.

. Really? Name calling now? If you hate this topic so much then why not just ignore it? Nobody else has an issue with it in fact many have given good examples

What makes you think I meant you?

Same here CNote, thank you.

. I’m so sorry I missed this. I read up on this and found an article where Kubecka was on the phone with 911 terrified. So sad

Article about the Ragucci murder. So Sad


https://www.scribd.com/doc/122348426/Dominick-Ragucci

Image of Dominic Ragucci in the front seat of his car after being shot ten times by Roy DeMeo.

You can mention Raguucci and anyone else all you want the facts remain: It was not a mob murder but a rogue mobster; and he did not realize who he was killing, he thought it was a Cuban hitman. It is not "A civilian victim of the Mafia" No bosses or other captains knew of DeMeo and the Cubans. and no one would have sanctioned the killing of a civilian. It was tragedy ( I have to say it for the 100th time) and and DeMeo was crazy. The fact remains that a boss in America giving the go ahead for the killing of a civilian is EXTREMELY RARE and it has to be a person who had some contact with the mob and is testifying. Still rare even then. Try to twist it, try to bend it, and try to keep the thread going forever by repeating the same things and bumping the thread up, it does not change the facts.

Anastasia ordered the hit on the guy who went out of his way and ratted on the robber.

That was a newspaper rumor and never taken serious. You are referring to Arnold Schuster, who turned in a bank robber named Willly Sutton. Anastasia and Sutton had no ties.

. Thank You for posting the pic CNote. I can’t even imagine the fear that poor kid must have felt when those two maniacs were chasing after him and he finally crashed l. Certainly a horrific mob murder of a civilian

Jace, there goes the media again. I remember watching a documentary adding that murder to the list of things that the other families gave for getting rid of him. I always thought that seemed a little odd. The boss ordered a hit on someone for ratting on a non member/associate.
Regarding the Ragucci murder, how did Demeo go without being the prime suspect. For Christ's sake there were witnesses and that article clearly says it all began on his street.

. Yeah I’m not sure how Demeo got away with that. Honestly I’m not sure how many witnesses were at the Actual murder site unless Demeo got extremely lucky and nobody saw anything or kept their mouth shut out if fear

Yes.

Apparent Dominick was born on May 11, 1960. Wasnt Chris Rosenberg killed on May 11th? Such a weird coincidence that Chris death and Ragucci’s birthdate were the same date considering Rosenberg’s actions were the main driving force that led to this innocent teen’s murder

A more recent one is Gerry Dahmer in Chicago in 2006

go to page one, i mentioned it with detail

oops sorry you’re correct

. Yeah the Matteo Speranza isn’t brought up much. Like Ragucci he was also an 18 year old kid murdered. Very sad

. Thanks Dwalin I’m sorry I missed this when you first posted this. That 11 year old in KC is really disturbing.

Horrible,Horrible ,Horrible... The last thing these murderers of baby’s,innocent children and innocent men and women should be is looked up to or glorified...as Ralph Piccardo said in Crime Inc “There the lowest of the low, there lower than the lowest human beings on earth”

I forget if we posted how Willie Cammisano had David Bonadonnas house robbed and the 11 yr old son tied up and mock executed and warned that next time he would be eliminated??

Instead of NYMAFIA.com why not NYRAPISTS.com or here’s a good one..NYPIECESOFSHIT.com

I know it’s been brought up on here before but The woman who was killed by Tommy Reynolds(Judy Shemtov) was horrible. I recently watched the Bath Ave episode of Inside the American Mob. Obviously not the first woman killed by the mob but it happening in front of her young daughter was just so upsetting

She was not killed by the mob. Christian Ludwigsen who uses the name Paciello and is a rat was part of a group of young guys doing a robbery at her home, they shot her for no reason. But it was not mad backed, no wiseguys involved, none gave an order---you just want to make it look like they go around killing innocent people. I call that lying. The men involved knew some mobsters, but were not mobsters themselves, and had no go ahead to do the robbery form the mafia.

Haha so true jace. Why people wanna tie those lowlifes to the mob is beyond me. They had NOTHING to do with CN. They committed murders that were later pinned on Anthony Spero. He NEVER used those guys. He wouldn't come near people like Jimmy Calandra or that crackhead TK who wasn't even Italian We're talking about a crew of junkies. Fabrizio is the only made guy who knew them and he's embarrassed about those ties.

Pete LaFroscia talked about the John Quinn and Cherie Golden murders on the Irish Luck podcast on YouTube today, in case anyone is interested here is the link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BL25Ww5t1tM&t=482s

. Thank You CNote!

On December 25th,1930 Carmine Galante shot and killed a 6 year old girl

He shot a 6 year old girl while in a gun battle with the cops

What a nice Christmas present to her family from this old school man of honor

Galante did not kill any girl, there was a gunfight with cops and robbers, Galante being one, the girl lived after being wounded by a bullet, which may have been fired by the cops. The girl lived, that is the main point. You have her dying, wrong as usual.

I apologize he ONLY SHOT A 6 YEAR OLD GIRL, I’m sure she was just fine, what’s a couple bullets to a 6 year old? Not a big deal.... I shouldn’t have been so facetious... I retract my previous statement since he only shot a 6 year old girl....He is actually a great guy and a man of honor

You Jace, really are piece of work..you need psychiatric counseling or shock treatment... my only question when it comes to you is are you really as ugly and disgusting on the outside as you are on the inside?

Here’s another one


Galante once walked into a Lower East Side Restaurant and threw a plate of scalding hot pasta in a woman’s face...she was scared up terribly for life...

Jesus this guy was a truly wonderful human being!!

Luckily none of the guys are like him, he was just one of the longest tenured Bonnano members in the 20th century and rose to Underboss and later Acting Boss

He must really have not fit in with all those good guys, I’m sure they were disgusted by him.

I’m sure that ruined his career shooting a 6 year old and scarring an innocent woman for life..that must have been why the clipped him!



Oh shit that’s right he was clipped cause he wouldn’t share his Heroin money and wanted the family

Fucking accepting an abuser of women and shooter of little girls....birds of a feather flock together...

You made up a story of him killing a girl, now you are angry with me for just pointing it out that you were wrong---or lying as you do often. Like when you said NYmafia was a child trafficker, then said the same of me--multiple times. You just used fake story of him throwing spaghetti at a woman. Birds of a feather? Well, you often claimed NYMafia who posts here was a child molester and a child pornographer. Now you two are buddies. Birds of a feather?

. Galante certainly was nuts that’s for sure

Here’s the “made up story” you disgusting,freak,mongoloid

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CRAZY KID TAKES AFTER HIS RAGING UNCLE

By Steve Dunleavy
April 18, 2001 4:00am
CARMINE GALANTE, the old man, always looked more like a grandfather than a godfather – but under that cuddly bald head raged a man whose temper made O.J. Simpson look like a preacher.

His nephew, namesake Carmine Galante, is a bucketful of clichés – the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, a chip off the old block, etc.

Young Carmine is a mad dog whom traditional wise guys would have clipped years ago. You don’t kill innocent people. You kill for business, and only rarely.

Geraldine Gangi, who owned a gin mill next to the old Post building on South Street called The Post Mortem, once told me: “When we were young, we were with a bunch of the girls at a restaurant on Prince Street.

“Some were going with the local wiseguys on the Lower East Side. ‘Lilo The Cigar’ walked in and one of the girls said something innocent that got him mad.

“He threw a plate of boiling hot pasta into her face. She was scarred up pretty bad. His temper was scary.”

When Lilo Galante got out of jail after 12 years for drug conspiracy, he told everyone how he hated legendary mobster Frank Costello.

Costello died in bed soon after, but to Lilo, everything was personal.

He couldn’t kill a dead man, so he firebombed Costello’s tomb on the Mafia boot hill in Calvary Cemetery in Queens.

Through lawyer Roy Cohn, I got two interviews with Lilo.

Charming? You couldn’t believe. Brooks Brothers from the basement to the top floor. Before he was killed with a cigar in his mouth at Joe and Mary Restaurant, he wanted me to go to his house for the weekend in Westhampton.

“When I was growing up [on the Lower East Side], I was a very sensitive kid,” he said. “But if someone came on strong to me, I would come back pretty strong.”

He thought the mob had become “too soft.” So he imported “The Zips,” real bad guys from Sicily who killed on orders.

There came Baldo Amato and Cesare Bonaventre, movie-star looking young hoods who killed like they were on a turkey shoot.

The old men in the mob got nervous. They paid Baldo and Cesare more money in one day than they had ever made in a year in Sicily. Baldo and Cesare, hired by Galante to kill, suddenly turned turtle. They set up Galante for his hit. Then the old wiseguys planted both “Zips” in the Secaucus swamps.

“The old crew hated violence unless it was absolutely necessary,” Detective Remo Franchesini, a top mob-catcher, said at the time.

“Galante was a stone-dead mad killer who would fly off the handle. People would die, legit people, just because of his temper.”

Galante even triggered his daughter, Nina Galante, into making a serious attempt at suicide.

Nina Galante took a massive overdose because the old man put hoods to her boyfriend . . . a non-Sicilian whom Lilo didn’t want to touch his daughter.

Little wonder the old “Mustache Petes” put Lilo away, with cigar firmly in his mouth.

Little wonder, the young man named after him allegedly stabbed an innocent kid in a rage.

SO the story is made up, it's from Steve Dunleavy, who never let the truth get in the way or his stories.

How many times did Wiseguys rape you???

Are you Arlene Brickman???


How many abortions did you have by the age of 25???


After the 5th or so time, did you start to enjoy it???

You are sick, all I did was say I don't believe a former writer, and that is your response?

With your fucking bullshit..playing games..saying shit to get people agitated...go back to selling your body in the fucking streets you fucking strawberry..

Steve Dunleavy made up the story He was model for Wayne Gale, the repulsive tabloid hack in “Natural Born Killers.”
Dunleavy was known as a jerk, who wrote anything to get attention, as I said. Here is one of his reports on the Jimmy Hoffa killing


https://www.deseret.com/1992/7/24/19007890/dying-ex-con-says-he-was-1-of-4-hit-men-who-killed-hoffa

Dunleavy on Gallo killing:

https://nypost.com/2004/05/31/mob-book-puts-gallo-murder-mystery-to-rest/

Frank Sheeran is almost as bad as Richard Kuklinski, claiming credit for every mob hit he can.

I'm not sure if the man in the Dunleavy story is Sheeran, the one in the Dunleavy one says they drowned Hoffa, Sheeran says they shot him

. Interesting. Thanks for the article. Either way Galante was certainly a ruthless nutcase

bump

Half this forum glorifies mobsters who were raping pieces of shit

why does this surprise you that they are still being stupid meatball neckbeards? they always will be

there are those who study the mafia to insure it never happens again in any culture and those who study it because they secretly (or not so) idolize that lifestyle because its been glorified in hollywood etc

99% of the mafia guys from 1900 on were 100% pieces of shit

You sound crazy, and very wrong.

Back on topic there are so many....


12 year old Giuseppe Di Matteo is always one of the first I think of

also I advise everyone to ignore Jace "The CNN of mafia bullshitters"

he might be correct 2% of the time which is less than a broken clock

Some of Sicilian Mafia kill anyone, kids, politicians, anyone. The American Mafia, with a rare exception, does not.

Since Jace requested proof here it is in his own sick words

there are levels to ratting imo but I agree a rat is a rat

but by your logic youd be OK with the two rats on this forum being whacked?

I dont agree there

so odd you arent raging this exact statement in another current thread tho

You're are nothing but a sad little clown and a born rodent...Period! And now I gotta put you on my "pay no mind list" where you rightfully belong.

Look at you calling people a rodent when you and your partner are nothing but fucking rats....go back to your sewer you fucking rat, you and your partner have been exposed for the rats you are,
I think and others think your secretly Jeff Lowman, so on that note go write another letter to a judge....

After repeatedly watching the infantile and insulting and "way off base" accusations you and your girlfriend post up daily toward so many forum members here I now understand all I need to about you and that other imbecile. I also have a real good idea of who and what you are, and where you emanate from. No more need be said. You two, and your other little clown buddies "reek" of desperation!

PS: I will NOT respond to any more of your babyish scribblings. I strongly suggest that other "sane" forum members subscribe to the same tactic regarding you two clowns.

What exactly about calling you a rat is so off base? Everything I say is backed up by proof! Whether it’s court documents or posts from your own keyboard...show me proof that you and your partner aren’t rats because I posted “the paperwork”. ACTUAL COURT FUCKING DOCUMENTS....Why don’t you tell some more stories from the 80s about how many different tracksuits you used to rock. Ps I don’t believe for a second your over the age of 40, no 60 year old man is gonna post the childish, infantile,hissy fits that you throw because I REPOST COURT DOCUMENTS FROM PROCEEDINGS IN COURT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, that clearly back up everything that I say. Everything that I say is everything that makes you hate your life,piss you off and ruins your self image as the former male version of Toni Marie Fappiano(though she conducts herself as more of a man than you ever will) that happens to run a website that is for Rats and by rats. You are the mafia version of FUBU(For Us By Us)

I see that my words really "struck an angry cord" with you "my little would-be tough guy?" Or should I say "our little kumquat?" Lol, I thought it would.

You and your little girlfriend (in fact, both handles are really only you) is the last person in this world that anyone on this forum needs to "prove" anything to.

You are a constant insulting thorn in the side of many members here; Friend of Henry, Jace, Mamaluke, Dilly Dolly, Mafia Student, and at least a dozen others who are forced to tolerate your daily unsolicited insults and abuse. I think that it's high time that you stop it.

It may not mean much to a heathen like you, but as I posted days ago it is the "Christmas Season" and clearly unlike you and your girlfriend most of us here have productive and fulfilling lives. We don't need to hear the constant garbage you spew.

So Stop It Now! If not, I suspect that you will eventually meet your permanent Waterloo here on this forum.

So in the face of proof your only response was to call me a “Kumquat”...Real Original...Tell me more Great man so I can become a beast at this game, just like you!

I love how you always say that, but never follow through. You have so many tells little man. To be honest with you, I'm amazed you're still allowed to post here

I really dont understand the vitriol on this site. I see a few posters like NYMafia that post alot of good, interesting content here. I assume we are all here because we share an interest in gangster/mafia history and current events. Yet there seem to be a small group of very angry, insulting posters who attack people, they particularly attack NYMafia, with alot of really uncalled for hatred.

Its bizarre. Most times I dont know exactly what I am witnessing here. If you hate the guy that much, ignore him. Why should it bother YOU if he has opinions and outlooks that you dont agree with? And why would you put that much energy into verbally attacking an anonymous guy on a small website like this?

Sometimes you have to take an honest look at what the hell youre doing and admit there is something wrong with the behavior.

Lou, you made your point, now stop. NYmafia, if I was a judge and you were in my courtroom, I would order you to psychiatric treatment. For now all parties stop. This is spilling in every thread which is ridiculous. At this point, if Geoff wants to shut OCRL down, I'll go along with it and that will be that.

I’ll stop your absolutely 100% right on everything you said, let’s get back to civility and talk about OC...

I agree with this also. Good post.

There is no civility with you,

Louiebynochi quotes:
"Jace does your husband or man speak to you that way?"
"Your a bi polar whore, who should only be allowed to open its mouth when cock is being placed in it or your asking “whites or colors first daddy”


You are a disgrace to this site, and you want me banned?? You talking civility is a joke.

i dont know if its been posted it before but but Anthony Casso besides ordeing wrong niky guido,, he also send Lastotino to kill the young man that help him with his masnsion Favara,,,, coincdend that also this person carries same last name as john favara who ran over frnaki gotti

. Yup these have been posted and are very sad cases

Oh boy, everyone is in such a tear-jerking snowflakey mindstate, mob life isn't all unicorns and rainbows you know. I'm sure lots of innocents die in wars that are based on lies propagated to us by a controlled mainstream media as well.

Not me. They are hard men that play hard games. Some are there for the money. Some are there for the violence. A small few will do what it takes to live outside the law.
None of them admirable, but most of them very interesting even if you wouldn’t want your daughter near one

So true.

I came across this channel not too long ago. He goes around infamous mob locations and discusses the history behind it. Besides mispronouncing some names he dies a fairly good job. This particular video he takes the route of the infamous chase between Roy and Dominic Ragucci during the Cuban Crisis of 79. I knew it was a long chase but seeing the whole route is crazy. I can’t even imagine the fear going through Ragucci’s mind. Just a sad a terrifying incident

Thought I’d revitalize this topic to see if anyone had newer perspectives or other examples they would like to share. Interested to hear your thoughts!!

The small kid that was accidentally killed by Mad Dog Coll and his crew during a shootout and also the neighborhood doctor from the St Valentine's Day massacre.

. Very good examples

Thanks. Also we must define the term "civilian" because I see some people still believe that Chicago's Daniel Seifert was allegedly an honest businessman. The reality is that he wasnt but instead, he was an official Outfit associate of the Grand Avenue crew, meaning he was connected and paid the price for it.

We also have another type of so-called "civilians" like Estelle Carey. She was the girlfriend of a made member and so she possibly hung around most of the dangerous fellas, meaning she was also "playing with fire" and in the end she also paid the ultimate price. The same thing happened to the doctor from the St. Valentine's Day massacre, meaning he was hanging around with gangsters who at the same time were involved in the most brutal conflict, meaning he was also asking for it.

There are also another type of "civilians" who worked legally but were naïve and didnt understand that their coworkers were in fact associated with the Outfit. Such example was the 1976 murder of Rita Payonk. Sources say that she began realizing that some of her colleagues were making shady deals and so she had to be eliminated. In the end, the investigators connected Payonk’s murder to the narcotics business since some of the employees were involved in the scheme. You can read about that particular case in the Mobile Catering Business article which can be found at the Button Guys site.

. Sure absolutely there are definitely those who are kind of associated with them although we’ve also seen from examples people in this thread that there are also a good amount who has nothing to do with the life who got killed.

Yes, I completely agree.

....in addition, I also think the so-called vendetta or blood for blood, also played a huge role within the Italian Mafia regarding the killing of innocent civilians, especially in Europe.

. Very True

It has to be Claudia Iacono up in Montreal in 2023. The only thing that she was 'guilty' of was being married to a mobster who had a target on him. Shot to death in her car due to a case of mistaken identity, leaving a young daughter. Incredibly tragic.

I also think that we can find many examples of pure civilians being killed when the Mob decided to take over the unions, after Prohibition.

The Mob war in Canada is just out of control, just nuts. Do we really want to see this shit happening here in America? Women being killed?

Canada can keep that shit for themselves.

Anyone have photos of the guys that did this?

I'm all for sticking up for civilians with no ties, but not all women were angels just because of their sex. None should've been tortured though, in fact I don't agree with torture for what's supposed to be just a matter of getting someone out of the way period.

. For Sure. There are probably a ton of those situations that happened during that time

. Sorry I missed this originally but very interesting point. I’m sure it did happen during/after the Prohibition era

Sadly, another victim to add.

What happened to girl wounded by stray bullet?


Media quickly lost interest in Connecticut girl caught up in New York City underworld hit

When Mafia assassins opened fire in a crowded Manhattan intersection at midday, Aug. 11, 1922, they inflicted a mortal wound on their target but also wounded two bystanders.

The intended victim, Umberto Valente, died an hour later at St. Mark's Hospital. A young girl and a municipal street cleaner - "collateral damage" in the hit - were rushed to Bellevue Hospital for treatment of gunshot wounds.

Street cleaner Joseph Schepis, forty-two, suffered a wound to his throat that was not life-threatening. Eleven-year-old Agnes Egglinger, a visitor from Connecticut, was more seriously hurt.


Agnes Egglinger

Newspapers in New York City and around the country told of Agnes being struck by a stray slug in the right chest. The New York Daily News, "New York's Picture Newspaper," ran a photograph of the girl. The papers said the young girl might lose her life. It appears, however, that no one in the media thought of following up to see whether Agnes survived.

Public records indicate that she did. Federal and state census records show Agnes becoming an adult, and state records appear to show her marriage as well as her death.

Agnes was the third child - and first daughter - born to Harry and Erna Schultz Egglinger of Jamaica, Queens, New York. At least two additional siblings were born after her. Harry worked as a metal lathe operator. The Egglinger family moved in 1919 from Queens to New Haven, Connecticut, first settling at 34 Sylvan Avenue and later moving about a mile south to 42 Hurlbut Street. While in New Haven, Erna's younger brother Reinhold Schultz, Jr., - Agnes' Uncle Reinhold - lived with the family as a boarder.


New York Daily News, Aug. 12, 1922. Scene of the attack on Valente.

In early August of 1922, the Egglingers went to visit Erna's father, Reinhold Schultz, Sr., at his Manhattan home, 232 East Twelfth Street. They were a few days into their visit when a feud within the New York City Mafia erupted in gunfire at the intersection of East Twelfth Street and Second Avenue.

Agnes and her four-year-old sister Dorothy were playing on the sidewalk, as gunmen loyal to Manhattan gang boss Giuseppe Masseria murdered Umberto Valente. Valente, a trusted assassin of Brooklyn-based Mafia boss of bosses Salvatore "Toto" D'Aquila, had failed in an assassination attempt against Masseria just three days earlier (a half-dozen striking garment workers were wounded - at least one fatally - when their group got in the way of the getaway car and mobsters fired at the ground to disperse them). Little Dorothy was fortunate to escape injury as the bullets flew on August 11; reports stated that a slug passed through the fabric of her dress.


Masseria

The media lost track of Agnes Egglinger after her arrival at Bellevue Hospital. But the 1925 New York State Census showed that Agnes was alive and living with her family at 12009 Baisley Avenue back in Jamaica, Queens. Sometime between the 1922 visit to Manhattan and the 1924 birth of Agnes' little brother Alfred, the family had returned to New York from New Haven, Connecticut. Agnes, eighteen, also appeared in the 1930 United States Census. She was still living with her parents, though their address had changed to 120-19 153rd Street, Queens. Harry Egglinger owned the home at that address. The census placed the home's value at $10,000 and noted that it was equipped with a radio.

A decade later, eighteen years from the shooting that nearly cost Agnes her life, the 1940 U.S. Census found the twenty-eight-year-old in her parents' home on 153rd Street. Her two younger siblings were also still in the household, and an older brother was renting rooms in the house for himself, his wife and their young son. Agnes was working as a clerk in an insurance office.

While available records are not definitive, it appears that the Agnes Egglinger who was accidentally shot in the summer of 1922 was the same Agnes Egglinger who became the wife of Frank Seelinger in Queens in late September of 1946. It could be argued that marriage was a greater threat to her health than a bullet. Records show that Agnes Seelinger died in July 1949 - twenty-seven years after the nearly fatal gunshot wound and less than three years after taking her wedding vows.

. Thank You so much for Posting CNote. Very Informative and Very Heartbreaking