Today, not the past

What's to stop a group of Italians (for this discussion lets say in Cleveland) to organize and call themselves a family. They select a Boss, name the family after him, Underboss and so on. They hold a ceremony, burn a saint and make a dozen guys. Now they say we're the so and so family of Cleveland. They start making money, running rackets. What's to stop them? I say nothing. NYC gonna call and say you didn't pay a franchise fee and you aren't a real family? Philly gonna call and say you guys didn't send your proposed list of guys so we don't recognize you? I say the whole issue with the commission not giving the Okay today is moot
nowadays. They're not sending a crew to wipe this Cleveland family out and send a message, they don't have a crew like that anymore. They're gonna complain to the courts Cleveland violated the MAFIA copy rights and sue them? I understand in the past when the commission said no, it was no or else. Today I say nothing can stop established family from doing what they want except themselves. Those who follow the so called rules and insist on them are the ones making money and only trying to protect what's left to be made since there's so few real rackets left. The only reason my above scenario doesn't happen is there are no Italians left to make waves. So when anyone says a family can't make members, or start a business its more because they just don't have the people not because of some phoney mafia directive nowadays. Thoughts? AGAIN IM STRICTLY TALKING ABOUT TODAY, NOT YESTERYEAR

I bring this up because of the Dallas article and it's disappearance because they were not allowed to make anyone new. I say if it was today they could just do it and nothing would happen to them.

No one on this Earth has more then 3 true friends that would die for you. No one. In 2021 there are not going to be 4th or 5th generation Italian Americans willing to become made and have a 75% chance of dying in the can.

Good points Mr Majicrat, I feel ethnic groups now a days tend to gravitate to what ever gang is prevalent in the area. That Genovese connected guy was a major latin king member on the east coast, I'm sure someone mentioned this point before, the mafia with all its rules can be seen as being to stringent.

I agree

The mob needs to toughen up if they're gonna last. Other groups are thriving because they don't fear prison, and they're very feared.

I could make a short film for YouTube tomorrow and decide to award myself the Academy Award for Best Short Film, but that doesn't mean I've actually won anything. And it definitely doesn't mean I'm getting invited to the Oscars.

The currency of Cosa Nostra is inductions. If some group of guys decide to make themselves in the middle of nowhere it makes no difference on anything. If you make yourself you can't be introduced to anyone. Effectively, it's like does a falling tree make a sound if no-one is there to hear it. They could call themselves Cosa Nostra all they want, it doesn't make them Cosa Nostra.

Correct. And yet, if they choose to just stay in their area and territory. Who's gonna fuck with them? or say they can't do it?

Sammy Gravano? Michael Franzese, or Fish Cafaro? Lol.....or any number of other jerkoff's who went bad.

Today ,the entire thing is so convoluted it hardly matters, unless you're in NYC, or Jersey. And even there, they are a 'shell' of their former selves.

A Tiger with no teeth so to speak .......90% of em live off the reputation of this thing years back

The reason for forming a criminal organization today is to pursue rackets that, presumably, other criminal organizations aren't exploiting or don't seem to care about. That's how the Irish, Russian, Jamaican, Albanian, Latino, etc., gangs got started--some of them when the Mafia was stronger than it is now. As long as the organization isn't stepping on a Mafia family's toes, or has made some accommodation with them (as did the Westies), why would the Mafia care about them? And, for that matter, why would the new organization want to go through all the ritual BS the Mafia supposedly imposes, when the purpose is to get rich quick? And, if it were a new Italian gang, why would they complicate their lives by claiming to be Mafia, when their goal would be to avoid crossing the existing Mafia family's path?

That's exactly my point NYMafia and Turnbull. Today a group can get together, call themselves a "Mafia" family in an undeclared area such as Cleveland and who's going to tell them they aren't a Mafia family? No one...period. I only bring it up to discuss, not like its a question that will come to fruition. Thanks for joining thread guys

As for your comment Chin I'm missing your point, I don't think under my scenario the fictitious family is looking for any family to acknowledge them, they don't need there support or approval not like in the Prohibition days when different families controlled areas and provided security to the other families running liquor and so on. So the idea NY doesn't acknowledge them is even better. The less notoriety the better.

I believe to some degree this has been done/attempted in the past. Seattle supposedly had a "family" called the Colacurcio family which was not ever an official family with any inducted members; they were just Italians who ran strip clubs and some VLTs and did some shylocking and weren't afraid to enforce delinquent payments.

They were not on any commission, had no contact that I have ever been aware of with other families, nobody had ever participated in any making ceremony with an official family, they just considered themselves the Seattle mob in the absence of any "official" one.

On a side note, there was at one time at least, maybe still, a Genovese associate in the Seattle area. Fat (Tony/Pete/Paulie - whatever his name was, I forget now). That was the only semi-official presence in the PNW that I have heard of, and it was one guy and he was just an associate.

Whether or not this has been tried in other cities is an interesting question. But I am aware of at least the Colacurcio's in Seattle as an attempt at a self-made mafia family (sort of). Best example I am aware of.

Sure then, anyone could call themselves the Mafia and copy the structure and some of the ceremonies. But it wouldn't make them Cosa Nostra. In the same way that being a copycat wouldn't make someone the Zodiac killer.

It just seems like a very strange thing to do and I can't see why anyone would want to do it

True. Also, when you really think about it. How many actual 'rackets' are even left to create, or fight over anyway??

Not many, that's for certain.

You got sports bookmaking (which is weakening by the day because of legality), shylocking, shakedowns (which is debatable), and narcotics. After that, what's REALLY left to fuck around with??

there are NO labor unions which are 90% gone. And NO Mafia run; policy-numbers operations, horse betting, truck hijacking, cargo-pier thefts, stolen or counterfeit securities, counterfeit or stolen credit cards, bankruptcy frauds (bust outs) are at a bare minimum, cigarette smuggling, floating dice games, illegal underground casinos, after-hours alcohol clubs, pornography, prostitution, organized high-end burglaries and bank thefts, large auto-theft rings, safe-cracking, etc., etc., etc.

It's largely over!!! And has been for several decades already.

Unless a guy wants to complete with 5-million other guys all chasing the same 50 cent piece as a bookie, or to put out a few loans. Or to risk your balls selling junk. Whats left??

Legit business, thats what.

So even if guys wanted to mobilize into a 'crew,' what are they gonna do once they are formed? Play pinnacle? Lol

In a way you kind of answered your own question. The fact that anybody can call themselves a family and "make themselves" means it has no value and therefore not worth doing. What would be the point? So you can hang around and play mafioso with each other?

Legit business is so boring, try making movies and video games about that, they'd all be flops.

[quote=NYMafia][quote=Turnbull]

That’s all. Dope and guys who want to bet football with you so they don’t have to pay taxes. Technology fucked half the rackets up and the government legalized the other half.

Yeah the world is fucking mundane and boring now, no more action.

I think within 20-30 years there will be either 1 total family or just the Gambino and Genovese maybe Lucchese. Not enough young talent to fill 5 families now. But there will always be 1000+ Italian Americans willing to be in that life so it will fully go away.

I would tend to agree with this. It's hard to imagine why an already rare talented young wiseguy-wannabe is going to decide to hook up with the Colombos if the Genovese and Gambino's who are already themselves desperate for talent would take the same guy. A solid prospect these days is going to be so rare that they will have their pick of where they want to be. Who's going to willingly choose the DeCavalcante family if the Gambino's will take them?

Healthy competition is a good thing and so I could see there always being two...maybe three families in the New York area, but right now I would say the DeCavalcantes, Colombos and Bonannos are all in very real danger of fizzling out in the coming 20 years. Maybe the Lucchese family makes it, maybe they don't.

But even the Genovese and Gambino's are getting collectively older all the time. Not a lot of talent coming up. At least the Gambino's have some zips coming over.

I believe all 5 families will draw recruits from the old country, and it's actually helpful to have more than one family, because when there's only one family it makes it easier for the feds to pounce on them with all of their resources.

I'm sure every city that once had a family still has people who are active, especially in gambling. That was one of the original vices and I think the reason the Genovese have stayed powerful this long is because they always kept their shit together when it came to those vices, those things bored men will always want. Sex (still illegal to pay for in most places), gambling (still illegal or heavily regulated most places), loansharking (still illegal everywhere), and these are the vices least prioritized by law enforcement. Get into drugs and it's another story.

But the days of corrupting unions (at least to the degree that they were a half century ago), political fixing, high end corporate rigging? Long gone, never coming back. Too much oversight, plus Wall Street has made many of these rackets legal and took them over.

For all we know Wall Street's days might be numbered, and as the economy gets worse and worse and police forces are underfunded organized crime will return with a vengeance.

Hey fellas,you forget the rrason why even in NY more people refused to be made: they will be target by the feds that will use the Rico to gave him a more hard sentence,plus you cant refuse every order from the leadership of the family ecc
While you can be an associate make more $$$$ and stay in the shadow.
Speaking of drad families,in Pittsburgh there was a huge gambling ring led by Iannelli father and son.
I think that the old guard would rebuilt a family but the questions is :
why recreate a family and risk to be a target of thr feds like in Buffalo today?
There is men that deserve to be made?
There are men that WANT to be made?

I think the whole don't join or risk being a target thing is bullshit. Every member of every gang is a target, so why even be affiliated if you don't have aspirations to be a full-fledged member someday, unless you're a semi-legitimate businessman acting as a front. If everyone has that mentality, then yes the Mafia will shrivel up into nothing. Prison and death comes with the territory, if you're that damn scared of being a target, don't even get involved in crime in the first place.

Its a dead on RICO

The Italian groups don't need LCN to operate in America now but we have seen that for example Riina and Provenzano were always interested in the affairs of the NY mafia.

If those involved whether in America, Italy or around the world are doing anything even close to the original thing or things they were part of, the relationships could be strengthened just out of shared culture and enemies (LE, etc.).

Francis Guerra is a long time colombo associate that refused to be made because he said that he have enough respect on the streets,is free to do what they want and that the Feds would immediatly put a target on him anf thanks too the Rico he would risk harsh sentences.
It isnt the wiseguy that refused to be made in this years.

Yeah, well, if everyone just decided that they're going to be independent wiseguys, with no initiation rituals or sense of brotherhood, where's the allure, where's the appeal? It's what makes the mob the mob, without it you just have a bunch of freelancers doing whatever they want. No structure, no strings holding everything together. Don't seem interesting to me, the "mob" loses all of its mystique at that point.

They will adapt to these times, but there will always be brotherhoods.

There easly be a brotherhood without structure or rituals,Buscetta said that Cosa Nostra was a way of life,values to follow etc he was inducted but for all his life he was a freelance preferring the Brazil to Sicily.

I think if they stayed in their lane, that is don't try taking any business from a connected guy and keep out of areas with a mob presence, they would be fine.

I am sure there are lots of gangs and crews that are similar to a mob crew all over the world that are not kicking up to any mob family, Just not in the remaining mob strongholds like New York, Philly, NJ, Boston or Chicago. They probably get less law enforcement attention than the mob, as well.

Definitely, unless they're dealing narcotics, or doing stupid cowboy shit to draw attention

as far as which families will survive i agree w/ posters about the nyc fams consolidating.
genovese,gambinos and bonannos will continue.
genovese is too strong and influential w/ a large membership and a legacy of actually being a secretive society.
gambinos and bonannos both have a historical connection back to sicily as well as some current connections to 'ndrangheta clans.
both families have also shown a current working relationship with each other as some past indictments have shown.

the colombos and lucchese do not have these connections.some past indictments show that they were together and in some cases w/ local street gangs.
the leadership of these families would compare to some capos in the other 3 families.
lucchese w/ a jailed for life boss and his on the street sycophants and basically the same kind of situation amongst the colombos.
these 2 families will some day be absorbed into the other 3 or combine to form 1 small family with little power or influence.
if either of these 2 had good leadership they would be trying to establish rackets in open cities anywhere near the east coast.
as a prev poster said what is to stop a group of random italians from starting there own family in a defunct city?
what is to stop an established family from doing the same?
oh right leadership,talent,ambition...etc.
why can't say the lucchese if they r so powerful a family not send an experienced group of some made members to pittsburgh to take over some rackets?
if these cities r so wide open it should be a cakewalk for a mafioso no.

VitoCahill the Gambinos taked what remain of the trafficante family and Thomas Gambimo what left of the LA family but just because had enought men and power while watch what happened to Stango when tried to expand the Decavalcantes in Las Vegas.

They would have to know who the gangsters are and be able to approach them and that would cause serious heat for extortion and they would be wrapped up quickly and for them to start theyre own operations they would have know enough customers to support a drug business or a shy business etc etc. it’s not grand theft and your not gonna kill a gangster and take theyre business..what are you gonna say as the previous guys murderer I’m taking over and how would you know who they’re customers were and if it’s a shy business, who they owe and where they live,there’s not gonna be detailed records like a spreadsheet for a company...

My point was if the Colombo lucchese decavalcante or other small families had the foresight to expand which it seems they don't it would be wise to start now or face the prospect of fading away.the Genovese and gambinos will eventually take over rackets and territory that the Colombos and lucchese don't have the man power left to maintain.

Colombos and Lucchese def have manpower. The quality of the Colombo guys leaves something to be desired that’s for sure. But both of these families have around 85 made members each and 600 or so hardcore associates each

No way,even with less men that FBI won't menage the US Mafia to rebuilt even with the small families like the Decav with Stango or the alleged resurge of the Buffalo mob.For sure the narcos,the bikers an the other OC gruops are dangerous but criminals gruops like the US that are active from more or less a century must must be kept an eye on because if it were perceived that the LE have lowered their guard also the other mafias (that still have their men in America) would compete to return not only to NY but throughout the country.

Each will continue for at least the next 20-30 years or so.

Eventually? Depending upon the total manpower left, they could conceivable merge..... or not!

Even if the Colombo, Lucchese, Bonanno, have even 20-40 men each left. Thats still larger than the vast majority of other families ever had all over America, even at their 1950s peak!

So I really don't think they are going anywhere, anytime soon.

Now as far as quality? Lol....well, thats another conversation altogether.

Organized crime thrived when this country was at its best, actually.

Tommaso Gambino is a businessman now with his wineries I would like to try his prosecco.

In my opinion Florida and the loosening of things in Cuba is the key to the existing made guys and the NY 5 to expanding what they have and possibly having a chance to get somewhere remotely close to where they used to be. Florida is absolutely flowing with cash right now.

The Colombo's are interesting they are small family because they are only present in Brooklyn.