The stupidest hoodlums - Crew by Crew

I got a fun quiz for the forum.
I plan to list each borgata, Family by Family. I will list one every couple of days or so, ok.
Starting with New York City's Five Families... Who were the three (3) all-time stupidest members of the given Family that I list.

I DO NOT WANT YOU GUYS TO LIST MEMBERS OF ANY OTHER FAMILIES..... JUST 3 OF THE STUPIDEST MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY I ASK ABOUT OK??

For the first New York Family..... I want your opinion on the 3 stupidest, most foolish members of the COLOMBO FAMILY.

.............Go do your thing!..... GO!

Joey Gallo, Joe Colombo. Don't know enough about that family to name a third.

Big Donny Somma, Tony Frezza , and charlie LoCicero from the Colombo Family

Good picks ColonelReb, I agree on Dominic Somma, I'll also add, John Cutrone, and Salvatore D' Ambrosia

On review, there are SO many guys who fall into this category for one reason or another that my choices were very difficult indeed. But in my humble opinion the following three fellas would definitely have to rank in the very top level of foolish behavior, if not downright idiocy, or lunacy. I will also list the reasons for my thoughts on them ok;

1) Carmine Persico - although this man rose to the very pinnacle of the Colombo Family, he ended up serving literally "one hair away" from a full fifty years in federal prison to accomplish it.... Thats FIFTY, as in "50" years of his life! Persico served at least 3 prison terms that aggregated to 50 years. In truth, he was sentenced to a total of 139 years in jail. He lived into his mid-eighties, so essentially he spent nearly two-thirds of his life behind bars.... He died behind in jail.

As if that was not enough damage already. He also made sure to destroy nearly every single male figure of the Persico/Russo extended family blood line. From his brothers, sons, nephews, and cousins. Each served many years in prison because of their "loyalty" to Carmine. And his beloved son Allie Boy Jr., and nephew Chucky Russo are in jail serving a life sentence as I write this.
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2) Alphonse (Big Allie Boy) Persico - the older brother of Carmine served a life-sentence for murder as a kid. After 20 years he was paroled, only to fall again a few short years later (appx 5 years as a free man), and was jailed for the remainder of his life.... He died behind bars too.
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3) John (Sonny) Franzese - this man may be one of the most tragic cases of all three. After falling on a federal case and receiving 50 years in prison for bank robbery conspiracy, Sonny was paroled after only 9 years behind bars....He had a new lease on life so to speak. Mob guys were amazed by his good fortune, because he was buried, and they never expected to see him on the streets again.

So what did he do? He made sure to screw himself by getting his parole "violated" within 3 years of his release. He went back to serve a 2-year violation. After being released a second time again, the by then, 64-year old mafioso never learned his lesson. He would manage to get himself violated over and over, time and time again. Its almost like he was a complete dunce, and didn't have enough common sense or smarts to see the FBI freight train barreling down on him.

Over the next forty-some odd years, Franzese was violated at least 6 more times. He ended up serving more time on parole violations than the original conspiracy conviction. In 2010, the now 93-year old hood was still at it. He managed to get himself newly indicted on a fresh Rico case. This conviction brought him another 8 years in federal prison. In total, Sonny Franzese served over (40) years in jail on the federal installment plan. He was imprisoned over 8 times since 1970. Time and again, freedom would elude him.

While away, his blood family, his wife and children were destroyed. One daughter died from a drug overdose in her mid-20s. Another had emotional problems and died of cancer while in her 40s. Two of his three sons betrayed their siblings, mom and dad for money. They also both became federal stool pigeons.
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The collateral damages done to the personal blood families of each of these men were emotionally and physically destroyed.... was it all worth it?

Not in my book it isn't! And the stories of these 3 are only scraping the surface of many others who fell this same way.


PS: I think others such as Jerry Langella (165 years in jail, died there), and Joey Gallo (a nut who tried taking on the entire Colombo Family) deserve honorable mention as well. But the my top three are as listed.

Those are odd choices NYMafia. First of all, Sonny Franzese was framed by the US government. Second of all, he was never gonna be anything but what he was. I think he was perfectly fine with getting 2-5 years on the street between each violation. Plus, a lot of this has to do with luck. Carmine Persico was a brilliant man and even the judge who sentenced him acknowledged that. When I think of a stupid wiseguy, I think of someone who doesn't have the know how to operate in that world. One good example of that is Greg DePalma, a man who would tell strangers who was who in the Gambino family and even proposed an FBI agent for membership. John Gotti Jr. is another one. That man actually kept a list of proposed members for at least six years, denied he ever cooperated and then got exposed by a rat named John Alite, and said he had a "weak moment". Can you picture Sonny Franzese saying that? I can't. Now Alphonse Persico (Junior's brother) wasn't the brightest guy around, I agree with you on that one. By the way, another brilliant guy was Little Allie Boy who is doing life right now. Smart as hell, but was really unlucky. Went to college and was already a captain by the time he turned 27.

as an aside to this topic, but somewhat relevant, the dumbest was surely CARLO RIZZI!

You must remember RC, that Sonny had gone through 4 previous cases back to back before he was indicted on the bank robbery where he got the 50. He had a murder case, bookmaking case, extortion case, and home invasion robbery of a vending machine executive case. He was lucky enough to beat each one by the skin of his teeth.

Plus he was being trailed 24/7 for several years already. And had so much heat from 3 earlier grand juries empaneled that he knew he was hot as a firecracker.

So even though he was eventually "set up" by the FBI, he knew it could come. He knew it WOULD come, if he didn't change his MO. After he fell and did the 9 years and got paroled. He WAS TOLD, time and again from his mob buddies, his contemporaries, his family, and even some in LE to change his style. He was already pushing 60 and could have laid back, still earned, and avoided prison by having his subordinates go to the front. But THAT was not his style and he paid dearly.

Then he was violated and did 2 years. He did it all over again. He got 8 years..... Then 4 years.... Then 2 years..., then 2 years,... then more 8 years..... Then, at 93???

He falls again! and did another 8 years.....WTF!.... I don't care if your Lucky Luciano, Vito Genovese, or Carlo Gambino. Who the fuck does that?? And I don't wanna hear that that way his "life" because it was Carlo Gambino's life too!

And Tommy Lucchese's, and Joe Bonanno's, and Cockeyed Phil Lombardo's, and so on and so on...etc etc. You didn't see them tripping over their dicks they way Sonny did. Or running head first (repeatedly I might add), into brick walls!

Nearly ALL his jail sentences could have been avoided if he payed attention and heeded friends warnings. And when he did fall, it wouldn't have been for 40 years! Total! Total! stupidity up and down the line with him!

You seem to be of the belief he didn't try to take any counter measures in order to stay off the radar. He actually did. If he was outside, he was almost always in the company of an associate or someone who wasn't a felon. He actually had 20-year-old kids driving him around and delivering messages for him. And when he had to deal with the Persicos, he would only meet with Michael. You never saw him around Teddy Jr. or Andy Mush. And Tommy Lucchese, Phil Lombardo and Joe B weren't dealing with a 50 year sentence lol. Why are you bringing that up? We're gonna have to agree to strongly disagree on this one. Thank you for being respectful. Appreciate it.

Obviously Ralphie, there were a lot more dynamics than can be addressed here. Many more factors that went into the mix. But it was a spirited, interesting discussion with you nonetheless.

And as you said, we can agree to disagree on this one.... talk to you again

I remember Big Allie Boy differently. Not smart by any means but he got out of jail on t the Bove hit in 72. Stayed on the street until the early 80s until indelicted again and went on the lam until he was caught in 87.

And if Carmine Persico was smart he would've taken a plea on that Hijacking case during one of his many trials on that case he was offered like a 2 year deal in the 60s. Could've been in and out. He rolled the dice, got hit with 14 years and spent 97% of the 1970s in prison.

Were they allowed to take plea deals back then? I know Gotti prohibited his men from pleading out in the '80s.

Junior Persico spent most of his life in prison, there is no question about it. I don’t think he was stupid though. His IQ was measured at one 110, which puts him easily in the top 25-30% of the population in terms of general intelligence as measured by IQ. Famously when Judge Keenan sentenced him to 39 years in ‘86 he told Junior “Mr. Persico, you are a tragedy”, “you are one of the most intelligent people I have ever seen in my life”. Ed McDonald was quoted as saying about Persico “He was the most fascinating figure I encountered in the world of organized crime”, “because of his reputation for intelligence and toughness, he was a legend by the age of 17, and later as a mob boss he became a folk hero in certain areas of Brooklyn”. So whatever mistakes he may have made for whatever reasons, I don’t know that stupidity necessarily had much to do with it. Just my two cents

Tommy Scafidi

- What year did you graduate from high school?
- Senior year, your honor.

Not quite a crew, but in the North End of Boston, Billy Angelesco's son blew half his foot off with the shotgun he was holding during a drug rip off a couple of years ago. I think they arrested him at the hospital but don't quote me on that.

I don't know any of these guys personally, so take this for what it's worth. But I think some of those guys were not necessarily stupid, but they just didn't give a fuck. I think because of ego and pride they valued their buttons and their title of Boss ,Captain, or Soldier, whatever the case may be, more than their freedom. And the ones like Sonny Franzese who grew up before rats or RICO or any of that, they spent the first several years of their careers invincible to the law. That kind of power and respect must go to a guy's head. Money and power is addictive, it makes people crave more.

How 'bout Brooklyn Boss PaPa Baccala and his would be Capo, Kid Sally? Hell, Jimmy Breslin wrote a book about them "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight".

1000% correct Fleming. 1000%

Power, the recognition, the chance for money, etc.

And let me state for the record, Junior was no dope. Far from it in fact.

But as a previous poster pointed out, Persico allegedly had a high IQ.

But my feeling and experience in life has shown me that no matter how brilliant or intelligent a fella may be. They nonetheless are capable of doing extremely stupid things. As you say, maybe the power and money went to his head and he just didn't give a fuck (In fact I am certain of that). Guys like Persico, Franzese, etc., were dyed in the wool hoodlums from the womb.

They didn't know anything else. Cosa Nostra was their entire world. Their entire life.....so no matter how "logical" an answer may have been. Jail was in the cards. and the position and "button" was worth everything to them. Freedom, family, happiness, etc etc

It's been proven time and again by many mafiosi. Cosa Nostra is a strange world. And many in it have an even stranger mentality as a mafioso.

NOW FOR THE BONANNOS.

# 1 - Philip (Rusty) Rastelli; Rusty served over half his life in prison. And accomplished nothing. And when he was on the streets, he lived like a piker. So what did he achieve in his lifetime?

#2 - Joseph Bonanno Sr.; he had it all. Everything! But he was not happy with everything. He wanted more. He pushed his weight around too much, and was also way to "heady" with his contemporaries. It didn't need to end up the way it did with him and his boy.

#3 - Dominick Napolitano; Once he knew he was in trouble, he should have taken off. Sonny would be alive today! Look at the scumbags who killed him? Joe Massino, etc. They turned rats themselves. So what did Sonny Black accomplish by be virtuous and following the bullshit rules of CN? When everybody else broke em anyway.... it cost him his life. He was a total fool for them.

The Bonannos Stupidest

1.) BENJAMIN "LEFTY GUNS" RUGGIERO
2.) SALVATORE "BILL" BONANNO
3.) GASPAR DI GREGORIO

Definitely! Lol.... honestly its a tough question I put forth, because there are certainly a lot of guys who fall into this category. Lol, its hard to narrow it down to 3 Lol

I say the stupidest crew would have to be those Springfield Genovese boys, after killing Al Bruno. They whacked a true mob legend, and that crew was shitty afterwards. I hope for Genovese reputation sakes they've been able to pick up the pieces and recover.

Man, Lefty Ruggiero is one of my favorite mobsters, but I gotta admit he wasn't too bright lol 😆

Rusty Rastelli was still able to whack family dissidents from prison and maintain power until his death.

I can't even argue with you on Joseph Bonanno, damn why couldn't he just roll with Carlo Gambino and Tommy Lucchese?

As for Sonny Black, the Bonannos didn't have their first rat until the early 2000s, over 2 decades after his murder. No way could he have seen that coming. I don't see any intelligence in the route he took, but still admire him for his principles.

As far as accomplishments, there really wasn't any in the grander scheme of things.

Yeah these days mobsters take sweet plea deals, had they done that from the beginning the American Mafia could've avoided lots of headaches, and I believe the families would be stronger today. Their stubbornness got the best of them.

Persico should've relinquished control of the Colombos to Orena, came to some kind of agreement with the other side, and bowed out gracefully. Infighting is the dumbest move in any Mafia family, they need to stop getting hung up on positions and titles and focus all their energy on making money. At the end of the day, it's all about the loot.

Because he was Joe Bonanno . The better question is Why couldn't they roll with him??? Long story short, I think that was part of his problem with them. Arrogance and entitlement

I don't think Sonny black was stupid or being virtuous. He was a true believer in that life. He accepted his fate. Wasn't a greedy weasal like most of them. Sonny was supposed to take off and what? Live in Montana? Sure he could have. But he'd rather die than live like that.

I get your point. But I have to disagree.

If he had disappeared for even a few years. That fat fuck Joe Massino and all the others imploded. Sonny could then have reemerged and been breathing today. Instead of having some blowjob put two in his head.

Theres no honor in that. Only foolishness IMO

Because others like Al D'Arco went running to the feds in such situations, like a child running to his momma. It's refreshing to see someone flex their gangster machismo and face the consequences of the life they chose, because so many never do. It's said that John Nardi of Cleveland's last words after getting blown up was, "It didn't hurt." People love stuff like that.

I heard ya. And I agree that it's virtuous.

But you gotta remember that when you read about these things from the comfort and safety of your den chair, its cool. But in real life, not reel life, when you're the guy that's gonna actually get the two in the head, it no longer looks so attractive.

In reality, in real life. Don't become a rat like D'Arco did. That was more stupid than anything else. Especially that he wasn't even facing any criminal charges at the time he flipped.

But just disappear like I said. Take your cash (provided that you have enough) and take off!

Most of these neighborhood guys that would track you don't know where they're going once they leave Brooklyn or Downtown NY anyhow. So just fly to Hawaii, Europe, or some other far off place and wait it out. Had he done so, Sonny Black would be alive today.

Truth be told, I don't think Al D'Arco had enough funds to do what I'm saying even if he had wanted to. He was half-broke. Even after he became capo, because even though he was now earning well. He only got to stay in that position less than a few years before the trouble hit. So he may have even thought that way, but couldn't pull it off with short money.

So he went the other way, and ran to the FBI

I don't know how much cash Al D'Arco had I read the book but forgot how much he was pulling in monthly, it's been years. I think as a capo he was making more than a captain in the US military lol. These guys need to get out more, mobsters in Italy travel the world, mobsters in America barely leave the neighborhood, and if they do it's the same places, Florida or Las Vegas.

Gravano said Persico was one of the smartest and respected men in the Mob..His exact quote from Underboss went something like this "but no matter how smart you are sometimes you just cant avoid getting tripped up"that other people were the cause.Gravano also said that Quack Quack had balls but not too much in the brains department.Ruggiero really almost single handily destroyed Cosa Nostra.The ripple effects of those tapes in his house were enormous.Ol Tony Bananna's may have been smart but he may have committed the single dumbest move in mafia history.And his ending was brutal he paid the price

He should have blamed it all on Mitra and Ruggiero. Blamed them and that Colombo crew for vouching for him. Layed low until the Feds picked him up, done his 10 years and maybe the lay of the land would be different when he got out. Then maybe form an alliance with Canada, zips, and Spero and taken out Massino. I'm guessing nobody would miss that fat fuck except his brother in law. If Sonny was boss and gets a life sentence is their anyone that thinks he would've ratted like Massino?

Take off like Enrico Ponzi? Moved to Idaho to be a goat herder or rancher or some shit. Sure you bought yourself 17 years of freedom. Looking over your shoulder but eventually you're gonna get caught.

Enrico Ponzo was a fugitive, Sonny Black wouldn't have been a fugitive, except from the mob.

Yep Sonny Black could have disappeared. The feds were not looking for him at the time

He would not have been a fugitive from justice. Any indictment related to the Brasco probe would have come later, after he left.

He would have been home free....but alas, it was not too be for him

I always think about Valachi that way. Not that I like Valachi mind you. Not because he flipped, but because he just comes across as a prick. But to be locked up in maximum security with all the other wiseguys, many of them more than "capable", and thinking they want you dead. What a miserable way to end up. No wonder he snapped and killed the wrong man.

Yeah Donnie Brasco made cases against that whole crew but somehow Sonny Black wouldn't have been indicted. He could have ran off scott free with no pending case against him. Come on man. Pistons had him on loansharking gambling RICO conspiracy and God knows what else. But you're saying they didn't have enough to insict him? That it he took off he wouldn't be a fugitive?

You should know how the system works. Tons of mob guys fled before the indictment came down. Look at Amuso. He took off before the case came down. Was he not a fugitive because he took off before they filed the case?

Hey whitey bulger fled before indictments dropped. Maybe he wasn't #2 and and then #1 on the fbi's top ten most wanted list. Ponzi also fled before indictments dropped so how was he a fugitive. Lol. You guys crack me up sometimes. You can take off months ahead of time. Once it drops you're a fugitive. Sonny black could've disappeared the day he learned about Donnie. He wouldn't have been in the clear. Once the Feds dropped that indictment he would be a fugitive

What I find funny is that as extensive as the Donnie Brasco operation was, he really only put a handful of guys away for a few years, maybe some for several years. But if I recall he didn't put one guy away for life (meaning life sentence), and the 3 capo murders still wouldn't be solved until another 2 decades. That operation was a waste if you ask me, but at least we got a good book and movie out of it.

I agree the Donnie Brasco operation did minimal damage. My point is if those guys fled and later indictments came down would they be fugitives if they didn't show up for their court date? Yes or No?

Yes, but if you are going to take off you don't think about shit like that you just go away. Other guys lasted decades that way, yeah they had to live with caution but hey, I guess it's better than 2 in the brain. But Sonny was a man's man. RIP Sonny, I'll see you on the other side.

That's still not the point. How many guys did decades on the run?

Whitey Bulger and Enrico Ponzo lasted quite a while. So did Mikey Cigars. But not many guys go on the lam. Who cares if they eventually got caught, it was fun while it lasted.

Sonny Black and Lefty were definitely Cosa Nostra to the bone. Sonny knew that he was going to his death.but he followed the rules. You get called,you go in. And Lefty took his sentence,never uttered a peep, and to his dying day swore he would "get that mother*ucker Donnie if it's the last thing I do".

Other than Lefty and Nicky Santora, (20 yrs each) all of the convictions from the "Brasco" operation
resulted in sentences of 12 yrs or less.

We will never know what Sonny would have gotten,since his body was found 12 days After his Federal Racketeering case (US. Vs Domenick Napolitano, et.al ) began.

people do stupid things or make terrible decisons but may be brilliant, do you mean just illiterate or made mistakes?

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Thats not exactly correct Colonel. Let me explain something.

If you flee AFTER the indictment falls, say you jump bail after you are arrested and arraigned. Then you are correct. You are a fugitive from justice. They can also probably hit you with an Obstruction of justice charge as well for fleeing and having fucked up their case.
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But if you take off BEFORE the indictment falls, you are NOT a fugitive. Yes, the indictment is still out there pending for you. You have an open warrant for your arrest. But I do not believe you can be charged as either a fugitive, or on obstruction of justice, even though they may damn well know you are aware of the charges against you. Because they cannot prove that you had prior knowledge about the case and indictment coming, etc. Even though it may be painfully obvious.

Case in point; I had a friend who was very, very close to me (one of my best friends). He knew he was in deep shit because they empaneled a grand jury probe about his activities. He wasn't called yet, but we knew that many witnesses called before that grand jury were asked about him.

He and I even talked about his pending headache. And after doing some pondering, he made the very wise decision to take off before the shit might hit the fan.

The result was that some months after he fled NYC, a state indictment came down against 5-6 guys. He was one of them. He ended up with a warrant for his arrest. But he WASN'T a fugitive per se. LE repeatedly went by his house, business, and haunts searching for him for over a year or two. They repeatedly quizzed his family and friends about his whereabouts. I was one of them.

If I remember correctly he stayed "on the lam" for over 6-7 years before he finally wanted to come back home and had his lawyer reach to law enforcement to try and make a deal.

He ended up with a bullet in the can. One year! He did 9 months and he got out..... OVA!

His co-defendants all got much heavier sentences upon conviction. 5 years, 8 years, and more. My friend was central to the case. He got 1 year and did 9 months.

PS: by the way, this was a state case. While he was in hiding, the feds came down with a superseding indictment almost 3 years down the pike. They didn't even bother indicting my friend in the case. For whatever reason, his name was left out of it. I think he may have been named as an "unindicted co-conspiriitor." (we personally think they wanted to keep their case "clean" and didn't wanna have any loose ends like a guy who they couldn't nab in it). Those charged federally received even more time.

So in our opinion they dropped him from the indictment altogether to have a neat and tidy case they could wrap up with a 100% conviction rate.

So be taking off months before the indictment, and staying "on the lam" for years he saved himself an entire federal case, not to mention he was able to plea down his original state case because embarrassed prosecutors and the rackets squad just wanted to close out the matter and not leave open drawers. The original prosecutor and certain witnesses were no longer available for a trial, maybe their evidence was faulty after all those years. Some of the detectives on the original case may have retired and were not available for a courtroom appearance, etc. Whatever their motives were to offer him that plea to close out the case, he ended up with a very sweet deal.

Especially considering that he was one of the lead targets and defendants in the case.

He did plead to 1 count, but NONE of the counts he faced became anything more than the original charges he faced anyway. NO fugitive status, NO Obstruction of justice for disappearing BEFORE the case hit. etc.

So there you go. A perfect example of the potential benefits of ducking out BEFORE the indictment drops.

Now I do realize that its not an easy thing to do. In his case, he had a young wife and kid. But he had the means, money, and connections to do this. He had to leave his beloved family for years. He was able to sneak in a few times and visit them. He also had family and a friend supply him with more cash while he was on the lam. Many people don't have those resources to do that. He was heartbreaking all around for him and his family.

But hell, no matter how you do it, its still better than doing a ton of time (or in Sonny Black's case, getting killed). My friend figured he'd get 10-15 years in jail. For a pound (5 years) he would have stayed put. But he thought he was gonna get buried under a lot of time.

Whitey Bulger fled before his indictment after being tipped off. He was on the FBI Top Wanted list. He was even #2 and then #1. Please explain. Unless you want to get into the wordplay of what a "fugitive" means.

If you take off before the indictment you can't be charged with obstruction or being a fugitive? You got 10 murder charges what's it's matter if your charged with obstruction or if you're not technically a fugitive? The Government is still hunting you down like a dog regardless of labels. Take the L on this argument guys. You can't see the Forest from the trees imo.

There are tons of benefits to going on the lam and ducking indictments. Hear the case, don't go on trial with codefendants, some witnesses might forget or pass away with time.

That's not the argument. You guys said if Sonny black just lammed it a couple years he would've been okay, he could come back scott free.

First of all Sonny Black wasn't facing murder. Second of all the REAL discussion between us was if he took off he would not have been around to get killed. Right or wrong here? I rest my case!

NOt to mention if I take your words and argument of facing 10 murder charges against me?? Lol... Then WTF would I hang around to wait for them to place 10 bodies at my doorstep??

I'd have to be crazy. No??

Take off like a bat out of hell BEFORE then come to arrest me. Because if I am facing 10 murders as you said in your previous comment, I'm NOT getting any bail once they pinch me. And I'm surely getting convicted on at least a few of those murders. Right or wrong? Life imprisonment with NO parole for sure. Ever!

So I'd take off and hide in Italy, Sicily, France, Germany, China, Australia, Etc, etc. But I AIN'T staying around waiting to get pinched like some sucker! Especially for a murder case.

Even a Rico you face 20 by mistake. On each count I might add.

Plus Sonny knew he was most likely getting clipped.

I don't know about you Colonel, But I'm not walking myself into either situation. I like myself way too much for that. Lol

Let them search for me. They may NEVER catch me. But even if I got caught years down the pike. At least I had all those additional years of freedom.

Instead of walking myself in like a sucker and taking it on the chin! Or getting myself whacked out like Napolitano did.

Right or wrong??

One more thing we"ll were at it.

If Sonny Black took off before the indictment came down. Yes! He would have had an open case against him. Of course!

But he could have stayed out on the lam. Waited till he saw what ALL his codefendants got after trial. And then made a deal to come (just like my friend did). He most likely could have worked a better deal for himself, even if he had to do a bid, than being in the dock with everybody and taking his chance up front with the rest of them... Thats a fact!

But the BIGGEST benefit here is that he would not have been around to get called in and get slaughtered. Fuck Joe Massino, that fat fuck stool pigeon. And fuck all of those assholes who hurt him.

If Sonny could come back from the grave today and do it all over again. With what he's seen transpire in the last 20 years. What do you think he would say and do? LOL

And don't give me that baloney about he's all Cosa Nostra. He was a respectful guy who believed in the life. You saw how far it got him right?

His kid got all fucked up after his death. The kid went down the drain. And he hurt his personal blood family for a bunch of guys who didn't give two fucks about him.

NO smart, savvy, mafioso is walking in. I know a few other guys who did the same thing. Went to their deaths for no reason. Why???

Because they were the few good guys among a sea of scumbags. The true believers. Sad

And they were NOT thinking straight at the time.

Nah. Sonny Black could have, and should have, taken off for all the reasons I enumerated above.

He would have lived, even if he had to do a short jail term down the pike.

It was a waste.

I alway's thought about that...& i always liked Sonny Black...I think (& know) what u just stated is not only true...but he would be around 2 day if he played his cards right....He even might have enough tough power & sense 2 beat all odds..(Massino & Co.)...the commision is is another story....he could have ran 2 fuckin' Aruba & lived high on the hog on some deserted beach in a rinky dink shack 4 the rest of his life running some kinda bullshit scam 2 get him through...

However he would have ended up is still better than being murdered, getting your hands chopped off, and then found in some abandoned ditch. Am I right hoodlum? Lol

Henry hill summed the mentality of that life pretty well. Anyway else to live was for suckers. Sonny black would rather die than to eat pasta with ketchup in a trailer park in Alabama. The 10 or so years they get to live "That Life" on "Top of the World" is better than a hundred years as a working class stiff getting up everyday at a set time making shit money.

That's their mentality, but myself I'm a working class stiff with a family. I never knew different, but if I ever got a taste of that life Id probably think the same way. YOLO! Wanna party most nights, wake up when you want, drinks, dinner concerts,fancy cars nice women, wads of cash in your pocket for nice hotels? Live life on the edge? Who would choose a 9 to 5?f give me a half a chance I'd take 10 years of the high life and a bullet to the head as opposed to 40 years of a regular job/life then dying of a heart attack.

Geez Colonel you finally said something that I can agree with! Even broke ass Lefty Ruggiero's life looked more appealing than my working stiff life. He still didn't get up and go to work on a time clock with some shit boss cracking a whip on his back, waiting for quitting time everyday just to give hundreds of dollars of his hard-earned money to Uncle Sam every paycheck.

NOW FOR THE LUCCHESE CRIME FAMILY;

In my opinion, among the more foolish, or downright stupid mobsters to ever be affiliated with the Lucchese crew was;
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1) Giovanni (Big John) Ormento; a hardened, thrice-convicted, interstate heroin smuggler, trafficker and wholesaler. No matter how much public exposure and law enforcement scrutiny he received, from local NYPD, FBI, and FBN (federal narcotics bureau), Ormento simply could not stop handling narcotics.

He had served several prison terms for heroin in the past, and was notorious in NYC. Yet, he just kept on trucking like he didn't have a care in the world.

Or course that was before he was nabbed, tried and convicted, and sent away for 40 years in the federal penitentiary!..... he later died in jail, never hitting the streets again.
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2) John (Johnny Dio) Dioguardi; Another top Lucchese member, and arguably the most notorious and prolific labor racketeer and extortionist in the United States. Despite a criminal record dating to his teens, with over 15 arrests for everything from throwing stink bombs, and felony assault, to labor extortion, union corruption, bribery, and bankruptcy fraud. Johnny Did was a #1 hood.

With matinee-idol good looks, and dressed to the "T," Dio became the poster boy to the public of what mafia racketeers were supposed to look like.

Within a 15-year period. He sustained numerous arrests, convictions, and jailing's. It all culminated with a 30-50 year "bribery and extortion" prison sentence.....but he saw it coming. He HAD to have seen it coming!....Johnny Dio died behind prison walls.
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3) Paul Vario Sr.; with over 35 arrests spanning almost forty years, Paulie was a dyed-in-the-wool hoodlum. He rose from a lowly hood in East New York, to become one of the most powerful mafiosi in Brooklyn and LI, and especially Long Island. But he fell so many times, for so many crimes, and did so much jail time, that it's almost incalculable. Mind-boggling in fact!

He eventually reached a status where he could have laid back, and let others go to the front for him. But he did Not!.....He too ended up dying behind bars.
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Three TOP mafiosi, who had the world by the short hairs I might add. Who had reached a pinnacle in their chosen careers where they could have lived out their lives intelligently. Maybe allowing others around them to earn a few measly dollars, instead of them hoarding it all. But NO, their greed and ego required them to try and grab it all. Which required them to step up to the front.

And there in lies the problem!......Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!.....up and down the line!

Me, I'll take my working stiff life and freedom over any of these guys. Sorry sounds like a lot of you have some really sad lives if you'd rather have ten years looking over your shoulder wondering who was going to whack you or turn on you to spend years in jail rather than freedom, family and the good times that go with it. But to answer the question, I throw in the Tumac Acceturro crew in Newark. They had it all and all to themselves and turned on each other and ate each other up. Never recovered and never the same.

--Carl DeLuna, who kept meticulous ledgers of skimming at the Tropicana and Stardust hotels in Vegas, leading to a huge takedown.
--Junior Gotti, with his list of about-to-be-made-men.
--Neil Dellacroce, who landed in prison for five years because he lost $100k in a casino while claiming only $10k/year in legitimate income.
--Bill Bonanno, who used an associate's credit card, landing him in prison for wire fraud.

The working stiff life isn't much better than prison, and you talk about these "freedoms" but how much freedom do you actually have? You have to go to work, and from the time you're on the clock to the time you clock out you're under a literal dictatorship. Then you have to turn over a high percentage of your hard-earned money to the government. Have a wife and kids? Oh shit then it's even worse. And as far as betrayal, there's treachery and betrayal everywhere, most people are snakes and dirtbags looking to hurt you in some way or another you don't have to be a mobster for that.

I'm a working stiff myself. I can only imagine if I got whiff of that life is be totally sucked in. No job, no time to wake up, out on the town 6 nights a week, different broads Every week, throwing money around. Why wouldn't fall for.tnat life?

He saw himself as the superior gangster, although he definitely respected Luchesse......

Matthew Madonna actually seems pretty dumb....

Tells the Bonnanos we dont recognize your boss because hes in jail, when Amuso himself was doing life, nearly sparking armed conflict between 2 families.....

I agree. I don't think he had any respect for Gambino, at least not after the Bananas War. I will say this, the where similar in alot of ways. I think Gambino was a better version of Bonanno (as far as Criminal style).

I'd like to know what Johnny Dio was doing throughout the 1940s, as far as I know he was free the entire decade.

Back then Dio (and his brothers) flew under their uncle Jimmy Doyle. He was the "dunsky" and they followed his lead. Dio and Doyle concentrated on garment truck extortion as a staple. Augmented by other various labor terror tactics to have dress makers knuckle under their rule

Little by little Johnny Dio came into his own.