Who Really Killed Joe Colombo?

So in Anthony Colombo's (w/Don Capria) book Colombo: The Unsolved Murder, he offers five theories on his father's murder:

Lone Gunman
Joe Gallo
Carlo Gambino
BRAT - Black Revolutionary Attack Team (who sent a letter to AP claiming they did it)
&
FBI/CIA

He suggested that he believed the FBI was behind it and that the account presented about Colombo's murder was a "myth perpetuated by the FBI and the media."

What is everyone's opinion?

(This a topic I posted over on the other board but inspired by CabriniGreen bringing a topic over here, I'd thought I'd follow his lead)

~LisaB

In his first book Michael Franzese said it came from outside the mafia and that the FBI was suspected. He walked the statement back a few years later.

Gravano, who was around the Colombos at the time, said that Joe Gallo reached out to the Colombo administration to tell them that it was not him. He said that he was at war with Joe Colombo and he was looking to kill him but he wasn't behind the shooting.

Has it ever been confirmed (joe Gallo reaching out) ? As far as I know Gravano is the only one saying that but I think it's interesting. I don't see why he would make up such a story.

Franzese who was with the League at the times, said it was Joe Gallo but i doubt he was really involved in the investigation so i would assume he is just relaying what the Colombo guys were saying at the time.

PS: what is the other board you're talking about ? I only know about this board.

Carlo Gambino did it. And it was kept secret because it would have started a war...

Anthony Ruggiano talked about how his father and him were told not to attend the rally that shit was going down....

BlackHand.

What I find interesting about the Colombo murder are these points:

Franzese claims he was standing next to Colombo when he was shot. He's said this on various videos. Yet, on other videos he says he was by the stairs of the stage getting brochures to pass out when Colombo was shot. I don't 'believe Colombo was by the stage...but further in Columbus Circle. So, how could he be at both places? In addition, was he ever questioned by the cops?

Plus, they never interviewed the cops that had Johnson and how did that guy get shot in police custody?

And the gun that was used to kill Colombo was a gun that was in police evidence months before.

In addition, if you look at the picture Johnson had that huge camera in his hands right BEFORE Colombo was shot, so he would have had to put the camera down and get the gun out of the camera's case in a second which is impossible. And what did they find on that camera film? Was there anything there?

~LisaB

A 16mm Bolex camera is not that big. I think it was black revolution. The black lady with Johnson is why I think that.

I started a thread on this a while back:
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=493613&Searchpage=1&Main=17509&Words=%2BBolex&Search=true#Post493613
I think it was either NYPD, pissed at Colombo for obvious reasons, or an inside job by soldiers and their bosses, pissed at Colombo for obvious reasons, and with police complicity. What sticks in my craw is: How did a no-account like Jerome Johnson get press credentials and an expensive Bolex movie camera? How did his "girlfriend," who distracted Colombo so Johnson could get off his shot, get away? Why weren't the Colombos who killed Johnson immediately arrested?

I think if we knew the identity of the black woman with Johnson that would be the key to the case. I've heard it might have been Assata Shakur. Do any of you guys have a picture of the woman on that day?

The only pic of her I know of is a blurry one of her walking away from the scene but I can't find it. It might actually be in a Time Magazine article. I'll have to check. ~LisaB

The black girl with Jerome Johnson was reputedly Lola Falana. Could have possibly even been Dionne Warwick.....

I do believe some government people were involved CIA most likely.

You're joking right?

Anthony Abbatemarco. One thing people tend to overlook is that he had cops on the payroll like other mobsters had, but that precinct where the gun that eventually killed Joe Colombo was in evidence months before the shooting, he had at least a squad of patrolmen and some higher ups on the pad. Persico fortunes turned on that day but he was a loyal Joe Colombo supporter, Anthony Abbatemarco gained a lot after Joe Colombo was out of the picture. Cops on the payroll, and Johnson having a vendetta against the Colombo family that went years back, Abbatemarco also having issues with Colombo and had the connections and resources to finally do something about it.

I totally agree with you Hollander. But I'm leaning toward the FBI, who's balls Colombo was breaking big time. They despised him!

Maybe?? LOL

The Italian-American Civil Rights League was a pain in the ass for the government, like Malcolm X and those guys.

Yep. I remember it well. Their league stickers were all over my neighborhood. All over NYC for that matter

The first Italian Unity Day was attended by 50,000 people and in those days the political turmoil was already big.

It was the FBI and police, if there was a hint of any involvement linked to Carlo Gambino they would have indicted him in a split second. Columbo's son did several interviews that were on Youtube, in them he totally tore apart the Carlo Gambino theory.

I think Jerome Johnson did shoot Colombo. But that begs the question, who put Johnson up to it? I think everyone involved, the NYPD, the FBI, Gallo, the other bosses, they all had something to gain by Colombo's death. I doubt anyone outside his blood family gave a shit. Whoever ordered the hit, they really covered their tracks by using someone like Johnson. And being in front of police practically guaranteed Johnson wouldn't live to tell the tale. It's anybody's guess who he was working for. But I have to think that if it was Colombo Family business, the FBI would have found evidence of it. They had Greg Scarpa in their pocket at the time.

The League also was a pain in the ass for Colombo soldiers. They had to waste valuable time shaking down store owners and others for League dues that they had to turn over to Joe without keeping any. Colombo's high profile put targets on their backs for law enforcement; and his denial that the Mafia existed diminished the fear factor that helped them earn.

There was never any evidence other than "leaked" reports to newspapers of Columbo soldiers shaking anyone down for the league.

I hope you're not that naive

Of course they all had something to gain but it wasn't a 5 way conspiracy.

Gotta put yourself in Jerome Johnson's shoes. Hey Jerry, kill this mob boss in front of thousands of people and you'll be set. This good looking black woman will escort you. Do the job and you'll be set for life. It's half sirhan sirhan/polka dot dress girl half LHO/Ruby with a hint of MLK james earl ray sprinkled in.

If it wasn’t Carl Gambino then why were the Ruggianos and other wise guys told to stay away that shit was going down....

AND Joe Cantaloupe talked about a meeting a week prior where Gambino told Colombo to step down and he refused, saying the league was “his baby”..

To me it’s a simple matter of who had the biggest motive.. and the Heat was killing the mob and Carl Gambino had just been indicted because of it...

If we’re talking about JFK or MLK I’d definitely pick certain branches of the Govt...

That's another thing, it wasn't just Gambino who told his men to stay away from that rally, but Genovese members Thomas Lombardi, James Angellino, Anthony Salerno, and one more member told their guys not to attend the rally. Lucchese members Samuel Cavallari, and Salvatore Santoro told their guys to stay away. It all makes those families seem to be behind it, but in all reality Joe Colombo had angered the other bosses with the Italian League. He was bring to much attention to the families, and another thing no boss would have green lighted a move like that as it would bring too much heat on the families, which it did, but LE didnt find any evidence that one of the other bosses did it. Sure the Detectives and LCN had a suspect as their first choice and that was Joey Gallo, but Gallos message was sincere and clear, he and his crew had nothing to do with it, but the top guys in the Colombo family thought differently, even a few capos in the other families did too. As for the Colombo family extorting shop owners and making them place the sticker in their stores, that is true.

I always felt if it was purely a mafia hit, why kill him at the rally and not at another time in his office or at his home.

You meant to say wasn't probably. What better way when you think about it? Why not try to get them to look in a different direction?

Well, I just got over 4000 pages of FBI docs on the subject, so we'll see what I can find once I start digging through it all. ~LisaB

Good luck with that, Lisa. I'm guessing that, if there had been any smoking guns in those docs, they'd have been removed long ago--assuming that any smoking guns were archived in the first place.

You're absolutely right. But it'll still be interesting to see what's in there anyway.

Cantaloupe is not a person who's word I would take, same for Ruggiano. Many mafia members were ate all the events rallies, including the ones not held at Columbus Circle.Carlo Gambino had heat on him since 1957. Why do you believe it about the others and not Columbo?

You are the one being naive, where is any evidence in all these years?

Very well said. Scarpa had been used before by the FBI for such cases as the Mississippi Burning case, and setting up someone to be killed was not a thing he would shy away from. The police being right there and no one getting arrested or charged is a matter that should have been investigated, but was ignored.

I think the FBI would rather see him rot in jail rather than assassinate him. Plus use a black man and woman? In front of thousands of people? They were close to putting Colombo in jail, had a Top Echelon informant right next to him giving them updates, and driving him up the wall crazy and at the worst time Gallo gets out and that's another headache.

so the mob needed to kill colombo in front of a hundred thousand people with fbi and all l.e. watching, because nobody could get to joe,? they could have called him in ,buried him in staten island and nobody would ever know where joe went..remember carlo put him in that spot ,if he wanted him dead it would not be a very high risk hit , my opinion.carlo was not john gotti who wanted to go down in history with a sensational hit,, paul could have disappeared also,

Think they’re would have been a war and I don’t think the Genovese family or Chicago would go along for the commission vote..Colombo had his own loyal crew and connections to leaders in New England and Chicago. I just don’t see what the motivation was for the FBI to wack him.. the league was only good for the FBI. More agents assigned means more money and overtime hours...and I also think Gambino wanted the 1.2 million he loaned Colombo paid back and if Gambino conspired w the other families to wack Colombo then how could he ask for the money to be repaid.. this way Carl can still ask for the 1.2 million back.... $1.2 million in the early 1970s is equivalent w buying power to $7 million..

Well said bronx, Gambino was very low profile. Joey Gallo on the other hand..

Yes, I understand of course. I don't think it was a big conspiracy. My point was it could have been any one of them. And since law enforcement wanted him gone as badly as anyone else did, they did not have much incentive to punish the killers.

Absolutely. But with Jerome Johnson being shot and killed at the scene, there was no way he could point to anyone as ordering the hit.

I say Joe Gallo arranged it and pulled it off using Jerome Johnson. He had the motive, balls and connections. The craziest and biggest balls of them all.

According to the Scarpa files Joe Colombo expected Gallo to fall in line. He expected no trouble out of him. Colombo was wrong. Gallo told him to fuck off. But Gallo couldn't have gotten johnson the Bolex, press pass, the girl, whatever money he was offered and convinced him he could get away with hitting a mob boss in broad daylight in front of the cops and the media. No way

ColonelReb Why couldn't he have gotten the Bolex for him? I believe it's just as reasonable to assume he could as to assume he couldn't. The press pass is NOT a major acquisition, not one that couldn't be accomplished. Joe Gallo had connections and allies in and out of the mob, as did his crew. As far as money, it was "offered" not paid and we don't even know how much was offered. Johnson was not the brightest bulb and probably could've been convinced fairly easily he would get a way with it. As far as the girl, no one even knows for sure who she is and if she was a part of it. Pure speculation. I never said Joe Gallo did it alone, I do maintain he was involved in the planning of it. But like everyone else, my opinion is speculative just like everyone else. I'd also like to point out I don't discount the possibility that either the Gambino's or the Genovese (maybe both) threw their verbal support behind Gall, and even provided some material support. They each had a motive to do it and then knock off Gallo later. I'm just saying it can't be dismissed. Both leaders in those families were very underhanded and very sly.

The Bolex and the press pass could have fallen off the back of a truck. Hey, it happens.

I think the sophistication, intimate logistics, and "tools" used in Colombo's killing. In full view of the entire world no less, strongly points to a more "sophisticated" type "operation" so to speak.

One that smells of FBI, CIA, Black Bag type plannings. The instantaneous killing of the perpetrator, the vanishing of his accomplice. The gun, camera, press credentials, lack of immediate NYPD response to the scene. Like a "Puff" of smoke it all disappears..... a Houdini Act.

IMO, definitely government backed.

I agree if for no other reason that at that time there were not the ex-Special OPS guys out for hire. No doubt this was a very sophisticate hit for sure!

Yep!......... JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm X, etc., etc., ... and Colombo.

If you notice in that particular era, civil rights era, rabble rousers.... they all got hit in the head. And ALL of them under mysterious circumstance.

The "old boys" network of the USA, wanted to keep the status quo. Anybody who ruffled their feathers the way ALL of these men did in their own unique way.... led to these FBI/CIA type "executions"

If you really think about it, its shocking to think that's what the G did back then. It was a different world.

And just how much different do you think it is today?

agree ny mafia..who shot johnson??? no video?? fbi was all over it, rally was planned for a year ..no agents walking among the crowd or any type of le.??? colombo had a civil right office or chapter on 84th st and 17th ave in bklyn, he was there everyday..or at cantalupo's office on 86th st. if the mob wanted to clip him they didnt need a black guy in front of t.v.cameras fbi and a hundred thousand witnesses..

Oh for sure. But just not as blatantly as the 1960s-early 70's

It is what it is as they say lol

Lol.... Bingo! For sure Bronx!

Roselli, Giancana, Hoffa maybe..

Roselli, Giancana and Hoffa were government hits now? Please don't be fucking ridiculous

Not the Hoffa hit IMO, but definitely Roselli and Giancana. They were directly tied into CIA efforts to kill Castro. Roselli had allegedly already given testimony before the Senate implicating the CIA and U.S. government. And Giancana was about to within a week of his murder..... so yes, IMO they were both whacked out by the U.S. Government to kill that investigation.

Could it be that even if the Giancana and Roselli hits were government hits, they were still killed by fellow mobsters? I believe Giancana was killed because bosses like Accardo felt like he was too high-profile. I can imagine he brought a lot of grief. And wasn't Colombo's shooter gunned down by a Colombo soldier/associate? How do you explain that one if the government whacked Colombo and Colombo's shooter?

Thats conjecture and never been proven that Chubby Rossillo shot Jerome Johnson

I don't know, people here are crediting the government with some of the most notorious gangland hits in American history. Let's go ahead and give the G-Man credit for the Anastasia, Castellano, Gallo, and Galante hits while we're at it.

I do believe governments in general not only US work with underworld figures.

Of course, just look at Greg Scarpa and Whitey Bulger.

Ok so. Lefty Rosenthal who was an FBI Informant said that Frank Schweis murdered Roselli and Nick Calabrese said he got the silencer and gun for the Giancana hit and that the Lapietra brothers did it... your putting misinformation out there. Your supposed to be an expert on the subject but your just making up conjecture.... and as for Colombo, Gambino has a 1.2 million dollar motive and Chubby in front of Mike Franseze and others shot Jerome Johnson...

For the record, I don't think Colombo was whacked over any debt, that sounds like smoke and mirrors. If he was whacked by the mob, I'm sticking with the "he wouldn't back away from the League and was bringing too much heat" theory.

I respectfully disagree the government had anything to do with Columbo being killed. There is absolutely no way after all this time that had the government had anything to do with that killing and a few of the others that no credible person with knowledge would not come out and announce it. not in this day and age of the narcissism running rampant on social media nd T.V....NO WAY. Two informant's in particular come to mind I think would've come out M. Franzese and Sammy the Bull with information about it if true. Just zero chance anyone around with information would keep any of it to them selves. It was a mob hit all the way.

I'm not so sure, but I'm leaning more towards it was a mob hit. On the other hand, it's very suspicious that there wasn't a thorough investigation into who masterminded the assassination. And that's exactly what it was, an assassination, life as a vegetable isn't life, IMO he was killed that day. And how come no thorough investigation into Johnson's killer? According to the law, murder is murder even if the victim is a mob boss. It reminds me of the killings of Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls, absolutely no one serving any time and those killings occurred in the 1990s. If they were street gang murders, then the gangbangers involved would be serving life right now. The fact that they're still unsolved has GOVERNMENT written all over it. Very strange to say the least.

I don't think it was a mob hit. Too many inconsistencies even in Scarpa's information. And everything Bronx said above makes 100 percent complete sense. If it was a mob hit, this is not how it would've been done. IMO ~LisaB

I'll listen to anyone who provides a valid point to counter my thoughts written. I'm not married to the idea it was Gallo, if I can be convinced otherwise. At this time, I just don't believe in a government conspiracy. I do believe in a mafia conspiracy, Gallo, Gambino's and Genovese's.

opinions on this question...why there on that day? mob knows how to kill and not jeapodize shooters.why there

it was a double murder day ..two hits..

another question, the plotters, if the mafia did it ,did they talk to each other and say, well there will be maybe a 100 l.e. guys there, maybe right next to joe, do they now starting killing cops besides those two targets? i was at the first rally ,shoulder to shoulder people. not conducive for a calculated mob hit. sounds alot like a r.f.k. hit pretty similar

I too believe that it was a Mob hit,approved by Gambino and Genovese Families. From what I heard,a lot of the local merchants and League supporters were informed that their presence at the rally would not be necessary. I believe that the reason they picked Mr. Johnson was pretty simple. They wanted a hitman that would never be connected to the Mob. After all. the agenda of organized crime is to downplay the Mafia's existence. So who better than a member of an ethnic group that would never be in the Mob. Could have just as easily been an Asian or an Indian.

For sure, but in those days, pre-RICO, mafia bosses were pretty untouchable from law enforcement.

And why the passive approach by the FBI after the fact?

Bingo Hollander! I completely agree. with your comment below as well

Don't take this as a smart assed comment, but the answer to this question is Joe Colombo.

He got himself killed by trying to become the Italian equivalent of Martin Luther King, Jr.

The others were never going to put up with it.

It was driven by Gambino, doubtless with the blessing of at least Lucchese but most likely the tacit approval of the other two as well.

I have to disagree, almost all of them were sent to prison. Vito Genovese, Carmine Trumanti, Luciano, Catena, Capone, Perscio did time before Rico, and that his leaving out underbosses and others.

Everything points to the FBI and Police, if Gambino or anyone else was involved, why were they never charged? Greg Scarpa was right there, and he was secretly working with the FBI at the time. As was by stated by another person earlier, the police and FBI were all over the place and had nothing to offer afterwards. I looked through old news clippings once, and the Gambino and Joe Gallo rumors were put out by LE as soon as Columbo was shot. News stories with "Leaks" from LE said they had all sorts of information linking various others as behind the shooting. Yet no hard facts were ever presented, no indictments handed down.

Jerome Johnson was found with blank checks from Joseph Brocchini in his room
when police searched it. Do you think that could be important?

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/04/21/...lice-gains-indictment-of-18-here-on.html

My first reaction after reading that is that it sounds incredibly fishy. Why would someone give him blank checks? If he was paid to kill Colombo, they wouldn't be paying him in blank checks...talk about leaving a trail.... But did the cops ever find out why there were blank checks in his room? Or was it just another lead they let fade away? Or was this just another bogus rumor to cover their butts?

Maybe Other Guy can chime in....I can't remember Brocchini's story.....

~LisaB

If he was paid to do it, that's pretty shitty on the mob's part. To pay an outsider nobody to whack a La Cosa Nostra boss? These things are supposed to be done by other made men, and not paid to do it, but out of honor.

I also want to point out that if indeed Jerome Johnson was found with blank checks from Joseph Brocchini, and he wasn't framed, then we know that at the very least he associated with mob guys. In other words, he didn't just pop out of nowhere.

From what I have read about Johnson he didn't have real connections to the Mafia, but he unsuccessfully tried to procure women and become a pimp, and was also involved in gay pornography with Michael Umber who operated at a gay bar that Johnson frequented called Christopher’s End that was controlled by Paul Di Bella, a soldier in the Gambino family. In a July 20, 1971 New York Times article Police Chief Albert Seedman said, “Johnson frequented the Christopher’s End in the weeks immediately preceding the shooting.”

The very fact that Johnson was involved in underworld activity should make any reasonable man believe he was more likely to be hired by the mafia than the fucking CIA. Do you seriously believe that this man was a government asset?

Oh okay lol. I don't like the way it was carried out whoever's behind it. A mob boss like Joe Colombo deserves a proper whacking and a lavish funeral, if they're gonna take him out. Poor guy lived the rest of his life as a vegetable.

First of all. Let me say that I want all of you guys to step back a moment, clear your heads of any preconceived notions you have about WHO killed Colombo. And just marvel at the fact that he was shot and incapacitated back in 1971. It 2021.... it 50 years later and NOBODY has a single clue who really clipped him.

Thats EXACTLY what the conspirators wanted! .... 50,000 plus people present. hundreds of uniformed cops swarming all over the place. Not to mention NYPD detectives, and FBI agents mingling with the crowd. Remember too that the FBI WAS recording film footage from several angles high up in skyscrapers that had a clear view of the podium, platform where Joe was standing and glad-handing people, and scanning the crows for "known" or "reputed" mafia figures to identify. REMEMBER THAT POINT. BECAUSE ITS VERY IMPORTANT.

Press credentials, commercial camera, gun that had been in the police property clerks rooms earlier, black girl who disappears a moment after Joe is shot. Makes a clear getaway although she is probably the only other black people among a sea of white faces.etc etc....... Why can't the FBI (why didn't the FBI) just check their films of that day? They could have tracked the black girls movements through the crowd in a hot minute. They could have seen where she went. Who she went with? WTF?........that fact alone is huge. Absence of investigation. A FBI coverup from the get-go. What ever happened to those films??

News releases by the FBI and LE that the Gallo gang is responsible for the shooting (with no proof I may add). Joe Gallo sends word ASAP that he denies having anything to do with it. This is a classic, time honored method of deflecting suspicion from the real killers.

In truth, Joey Gallo couldn't find his own ass with both hands, let alone orchestrate a "hit"... more than a hit, an "assassination" of this caliber. In fact, none of the New York Mafia could. The Colombo "assassination" reeks of government involvement. From cradle to grave (literally). It has the G's fingerprints all over it, regardless of how they tried to deflect a shining light from them. And in retrospect, 50 years later, after all the smoke has cleared from the room, it becomes crystal clear in my mind at least.

Law enforcement NEVER follows up on leads. They just wash everybody's face for a few weeks and then its forgotten about.

J. Johnson is reported to have a few cancelled checks from Lucchese associate Joe Brocchini when detectives make the obligatory "search" of his room. It means less than zero. It was a half-ass attempt to tie JJ to the mob. Supposedly he worked at one of Brocchini's Black Jack Book Stores in Times Square for a few weeks previously.

And I tell you this (From personal experience with friends). Nearly all Colombo soldiers and capos were spooked by what happened. Everybody started carrying guns on a daily basis. Because they didn't know where it came from. If it WAS a mob hit, word from the bosses would have eventually come down to calm the troops and explain the killing of a boss. THAT is Cosa Nostra. There is always an accounting between them. Especially when they kill a boss.........but THEY didn't kill him!

And I hate to say it, but a lot of these guys are not brain surgeons. They don't have the art of deduction. And in that era of turmoil, nobody even cared to sit down and think it out. Most (like all of you), just figured Gallo did it (with Gambinos' blessing).

I CALL BULLSHIT!
-------------------------
If you fellas have learned anything at all about the mob. Anything! You should realize by now that the mafia doesn't kill that way. Especially a top boss. Especially one who has nearly every news camera, television station, reporter, and law enforcement personnel "on the very scene" of the potential hit location. Are all of you nuts?? LOL

Many were growing disillusioned by Joe Colombo; members of his own family, those in other families, and Carlo Gambino himself. They felt the "heat" that was being brought down on all of them was very counterproductive to Cosa Nostra....and they were right of course!

In the previous year or so, the feds were breaking everybody's balls tremendously. Plus you gotta remember that only Joe Colombo was making any money from this cash cow called The Italian-American Civil Rights League."

It was very profitable, yet it belonged to him alone. He wasn't sharing the wealth. So what were the other bosses getting out of it? Zero thats what! So Gambino sent out word pulling back his support of Colombo's league. Others did as well. But that DOES NOT MEAN that they killed him.

During that last year Colombo had been buried under multiple indictments; major gambling charges, 2 contempt of court charges in Kings and Nassau Counties, and a jewel robbery conspiracy out on Long Island. He was definitely in trouble.

But the FBI hated him with a passion. So did their boss J.Edgar Hoover. For them, it had gotten VERY personal. Very, very personal indeed. And they wanted revenge. So did the Justice Department back in Washington. It was the Civil Rights Era. And the G was all fucked up from getting "backed up" by all these various civil rights groups. Colombo was in the very forefront of that movement. Nobody had ever fucked with them the way that Joe Colombo had. Ever!

Colombo had made them all look like fools. From J.Edgar right on down the line. The FBI had a hatred for him second to none.

He was a "symbol" more than anything. A symbol that the government wanted desperately to extinguish. Permanently! Not with a bullshit jailing where he would still be able to spout his BS about them. He had "de-balled" them.

No longer could they use the words Mafia, Cosa Nostra, The Brotherhood, Capo, soldier, underboss, consigliere, etc. etc. He had 'DE-BALLED' them. Get it fellas???

While he stayed in power all of their hands would be tied behind their backs. And their mouths taped and shut tight!.... The FBI could not allow that. Under any circumstances.

JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm X, etc.... Remember the "grassy knoll" theory?? LOL .....and also Rabbi Meir Kahane's assassination. Who was a very close friend of Colombo. They supported each others causes. The JDL, and the IACRL. The civil rights era was turning the "status quo" in America on its head. And there was NO greater figure who represented that, than Joe Colombo to them. Each of the names I mention above were killed under very mysterious circumstances. The way they were each killed is almost singular in their Modus Operandi to Joe Colombo's shooting.

Does it not ring a bell to all of you? The bell of truth??........ I make the statement here and now, that most, if not ALL of those killings (assassinations really), was the work of the government.

The FBI HAD to put a stop to them all. THEY JUST HAD TOO! And they did! ...Once and for all, permanently.

There is a lot more that I could say on this subject fellas, but enough is enough already.

.............I rest my case fellas! "TheOG"


PS: It is serious food for thought.

I always thought the government hit him. They hate civil rights, even white civil rights, lol

I understand where you are coming from, in so far as the I understand you appear to take a conspiratorial view of the government, and that is not entirely without entitlement. After all, we know the government can engage in conspiracy from time to time because we have ironclad proof of that - the Watergate incident being a clear example.

That being said, I think it's a hell of a stretch to lay all those infamous crimes at the feet of the FBI. I don't know enough about Colombo's shooting, or about Malcolm X's, to comment specifically with respect to what happened on those days.

But I know a lot about the Kennedy ones and enough about MLK to be confident in all three official stories.

That might sound naive to you, but I've actually stood in that window on the sixth floor of Dealey Plaza. That was not a difficult shot. If I'm being told to kill the president, then there is no question that the grassy knoll is the better shot of the two...but it doesn't mean it couldn't have been done from the Texas School Book Depository. You've got the two coworkers on the fifth floor who heard the shell casings hit the floor. You have the coworker he drove in with that day who saw him carry a package of "curtain rods" upstairs with him. Most of what has been suggested about Oswald's intelligence training has been greatly exaggerated based on only very small kernels of truth. Vincent Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History" - if you can make it through all 1500 pages, is an excellent summation of the myths that have arisen over the years to suggest a conspiracy and a systematic debunking of them one by one.

I say all this as someone who believed in the conspiracy for years. But when I really challenged those views, they simply did not hold up to scrutiny.

In addition to Bugliosi's book, the Warren Report itself is another great source. Most people who believe in the conspiracy will spit at it's very mention...but oddly enough, I have found that most who do haven't bothered to actually read it.

Oliver Stone made a wonderful movie which I love for the performances, the score, the perfect capture of the look of the era and for how it got people talking about the event, but do not be sucked into using it as research material.

If we go back to Watergate as proof of the government being known to engage in conspiracy, ask yourself this: if the President cannot facilitate the burglary of a hotel room a few blocks from the White House, what are the odds that the Vice President had the President killed and nobody said a thing?

Happy to debate this respectfully; or if anyone would prefer instead to call me a stupid sheeple we could just as soon not debate it.

PS--- on one of my many trips to Dallas I also ate at Campisi's, the restaurant owned by the at the time Underboss of the Dallas mob! Campisi as you may know was the first man to visit Jack Ruby in jail. It's still owned by the Campisi family. Another little bit of American LCN trivia.

Eastside, that's the real beauty of these conspiracies. 50-60 years later and NO ONE truly has a clue about JFK, RFK, MLK, Colombo, etc.

If anybody still thinks that some lone whacko, or some numb skull pulled ANY of these off by themselves, then with all do respect to you and like minded thinkers, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell ya for $24.

Rabbi Kahane? I'm not so sure the fee-bees were involved in that one. But JFK, RFK, Colombo, Sam Giancana and Roselli. In my view, were all conspiracies that can be logically laid at the G's doorstep for one reason or another.

Either FBI, CIA, rogues in those agencies, (or approved plots that came directly from the top), etc.

But what evidence would show that Oswald couldn't have done it?

I do not doubt for one split second that Oswald was involved. But that fact doesn't mean that others weren't as well. And certainly doesn't preclude a "conspiracy"

If anything, it enhances one

Even Joe's own son, Anthony Colombo, stated that his personal gut feelings was that the FBI was behind the conspiracy to shoot his father.

But he made sure to make those explosive allegations at the very end of his life. He was already sick, and he didn't give a fuck anymore.

Notice that he never dared spout that while he was still young, and active in the streets. For fear of reprisal from the feds.... Or worse!!

He and his entire personal blood family were spooked by what happened to his dad for speaking out against the FBI. Neither he, brother Joe Jr., brother Vincent, his sisters or mom ever dared speak out the way he did at the end..... they all kept their feelings deep in their belly. Why??

THAT, in and of itself, showed you where things were REALLY at. They shit their pants over that reality.

and not 1 Colombo member, out of over 150 made guys at that time. REALLY knew what was what. But under their breath, more than one whispered the same thing.

That they felt it was the Federal Bureau of Investigation.... Period!

Following the Sicilian mafia and Italy in general since the late 80s I do believe in conspiracies and cover-ups but not the far-fetched crazy ones.

Someone else's feelings aren't evidence though. Anthony Colombo may feel whatever way he wants about this, that or the other thing - just because he was the victim's son doesn't give him any greater insight into who committed the crime - as a matter of fact, it presents the very real risk that he is too close to the subject matter to review it objectively and is too prone to confirmation bias.

Alphonse D'Arco wrote in his book about how he and fellow mobsters believed the FBI had the power to give them cancer. That's an absurd thought (at least I think so). It's a perfect example of just how somebody can believe something without it having any basis in fact.

It's not like we don't know who actually shot Colombo - what was Jerome Johnson's connection to the government? Would the government really get involved with a low level thug like that and trust him to carry out a mission of such importance to them? (And why would it have been that important in the first place to kill Joe Colombo? His league may well have been a pain in the ass, but at that time was it any worse than massive anti-Vietnam demonstrations or the Black Panthers, for example?)

Also - when Johnson failed to actually kill Colombo, why was another agent not dispatched to finish the job in case Colombo somehow came out of his coma?

And with Colombo then out of the way, who did kill Gallo subsequently? Everyone likes to lay a claim of responsibility to it but nobody for sure seems to know who did it, much like the murder of Colombo himself as you've pointed out.

Joe Colombo was involved in the underworld and ergo by definition had countless enemies. It is not a great leap to suggest that a mob boss' life is always somewhat in danger. From Masseria to Anastasia to Galante to Castellano that is a known occupational hazard of that life.

If the government had wanted him dead that badly and could succeed so easily in doing so without leaving the slightest bit of evidence....then how did they fail to convict John Gotti over and over? For that matter why did they not simply kill him too? Incidentally...I think Gotti had the deck stacked against him in his last trial - the DA with the FBI didn't fight a completely fair fight but they certainly didn't arrange for his death.

I don't agree with your assessment East side, or your take on it. But thats what makes horse races as they say. Everybody picks the horse they wanna go with.

But I respect your right to think the way you do.

Watch your patronizing tone, NYM. You're not the last word on this subject,

What I said was not meant to be "patronizing" at all. And I also don't claim to be the "last word" as you say on the Mafia. Who is? I don't think any one person could possibly have all the knowledge there is to glean about traditional organized crime. Its way too vast a subject. Do you agree?

It's a matter of semantics I think. The statements I made are meant for us all. Myself included. If "we" have learned anything at all about the Mafia, with all the reading we've done over the years, "we" know that the mob doesn't kill that way....does that read a bit better? Lol

If "we" step back and clear "our" heads of any preconceived notions "we'" have, of the things that we may have read of the Colombo shooting, instead of taking them for granted as gospel, We can open up our minds to the very real possibilities of it not having been Joe Gallo at all who committed this shooting.

And IMO the facts, the tidbits we do indeed know about the situation, start to fall into place and point to a conspiracy..... and not from the "mob" per, se I might add.

Strictly speaking only about the JFK hit,I feel that there is sufficient evidence to support the fact fact that Oswald was the only shooter,and that he acted alone. However, just like eastsideofvan, at one time I supported the conspiracy theory. After researching and separating actual evidence from speculation I revised my opinion.He mentioned a great source: Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History" I would strongly urge people to pick up a copy. As he mentioned it is a ponderous read (over 1500 pages),but it is the most thoroughly researched and unbiased account I've ever seen. Bugliosi provides citations from a number of sources,copies of actual documents,and independently verifiable accounts of the characters,background,and related events surrounding that day. He also methodically debunks virtually every common conspiracy theory with the same non-biased approach. I'm not claiming that my version is right or wrong,but I'll wager that if a person is in the "conspiracy corner",this book may well make them rethink their position. PS. I lucked out and got a copy on clearance at 1/2 price books, but once I finished it I would have gladly paid full price.

Kennedy was whacked by the cabal or secret government, that's my position. No book can change my mind, but glad you read a great cover-up.

And which cabal or secret government does your evidence point to ?
I'm always looking for another well researched opinion.so please feel free to share yours.

There's already enough material out there that points to a conspiracy, why would I bother so many have already done better than I could. Do your research, if you don't see by now everything is controlled, then there isn't any hope. Put on your They Live shades and wake up to the truth, it's all around you.

Thanks for the recommendation. It's been a while since I read something on Kennedy. Was going to get a kindle version (better price than 115 bucks....lol) but just found a print version at thriftbooks. Looking forward to reading it especially considering I'm still a supporter of the conspiracy theory. I'm like those memes you see "change my mind"...lol.....~LisaB

Such cabals definitely exist in Italy, and they exist because of America...

How do you figure it's because of America?

Maybe it is not proven Phil Rossillo shot Johnson but it's pretty much a given from what I have read. Not only is it in the Scarpa files but it's in other documents about wiseguys commenting on how that were awed about Chubby shooting this guy with the cops right there. It's primarily why Chubby got his button

DillyDolly,my intention is not to engage in a disrespectful discussion with you,and for my part,I apologize if I became defensive or even offensive.

I did mention that at one time,I subscribed to the conspiracy theory. Then as I began to do further research,making sure to keep an open mind and to draw conclusions based on what I could verify independently ,My position changed.

The Bugliosi book satisfied many of my outstanding questions and I only mentioned it because I think that it is a landmark work on the subject. Of course anyone is free to agree or disagree, but would it really be a bad idea to at least read it first? You may still feel the way you do,and I respect that. I only put it out there because I believe that in a search for truth, the more info we have access to,the better we can justify our position.

If you get the book,and decide that it's a load of crap,suitable only for target practice,then so be it. You've made an informed decision based on actual knowledge. Regardless of what opinion you may have of the book,I will respect your right to hold that opinion. I just thought that it would be a good resource and only put it out there for that purpose. I do not claim that I am absolutely right,but I have my own strongly held opinion,just as (I'm sure) almost everyone has.

I would actually make a distinction...... I don't think the WHOLE GOVERNMENT was behind these plots. Some kind of radical faction maybe, a portion of government officials/intelligence people.

No disrespect lol, I respect everyone here and open to all theories.

I will admit that the book is a ponderous read,and not something you can knock off quickly,but if you find the time,it is absolutely worth it, especially for someone like yourself who is so passionate about research. I would love to see you post your thoughts after you finish it. Given the size of the book,it may be a little while,but I ain't goin' nowhere. Hope you enjoy it.

I usually pull for the outlaw I don't give much praise to police or prosecutors but Bugliosi won convictions on 105 out of 106 felony cases in his years as LA county DA including Manson.Great writer as well.i have read his OJ book,Helter Skelter and the book mentioned above.Great read

1) Colombo was killed by calculations by Anthony Abbatemarco, Jerome Johnson lived above a place that Abbatemarco frequented, and yes it was a Gambino place.
2 Jerome Johnson was killed by Phil "Chubby" Rossillo in front of the cops and nothing happened to Rossillo that he became a legend for it.
3) Joe "Crazy Joe" Gallo was killed by Carmine DiBiase, and the LoCicero brothers, along with some others on orders form Joe Yacovelli. Everyone is dead now except for Frank LoCicero who might still be kicking but he is in his 90s.

Yes I do agree with you that it probably was Chubby who shot Johnson. He was a very close friend of Joe's son Anthony, and he was right there when it happened.

But even if it was Chubby, we have to remember that Rossillo was a Colombo associate who was loyal to the Family. He wouldn't have been involved in any "government plot." For that matter, neither would have any other mob guys. The government wouldn't have needed to bring them into anything, if in fact they chose to do it. The had the capabilities on their own. So for me at least, Chubby shooting Johnson doesn't change a thing. Thats what he was supposed to do if he's carrying a gun and you see some guy shoot your boss. So what he did by capping Johnson doesn't negate the government plot theory at all.

Also, as Cabrini said, I too don't believe it was the entire U.S. government, or even the entire FBI for that matter. These type of plots are usually carried out by small rogue elements, or "factions" if you will. Maybe, probably, under direct orders from the hierarchy such as Hoover himself, of another top official.

They exist in many countries around the world, in Italy the most famous case is Propaganda Due. (better known as P2) a Masonic lodge belonging to the Grand Orient of Italy (GOI). It was founded in 1877 with the name of Masonic Propaganda, in the period of its management by the entrepreneur Licio Gelli it assumed deviated forms with respect to the statutes of the Freemasonry and became subversive towards the Italian legal order. The P2 was suspended by the GOI on 26 July 1976; subsequently, the parliamentary commission of inquiry into the P2 Masonic lodge under the presidency of Minister Tina Anselmi concluded the P2 case by denouncing the lodge as a real "criminal organization" and "subversive". It was dissolved with a special law, the n. 17 of 25 January 1982.

Chubby definitely wasn't working with the government. He was a bodyguard. Probably told a million times if somebody shoots at Colombo to take them out immediately. No hesitation. He just did his job. Not smart with a dozen cops right there but he got away with it in the chaos somehow.

If you were the government would you do it this way? I wouldn't. Id snipe him from a distance completely unseen. They'd think it was the Gallo's either way.

The more I think about this the more I think it was Joey Gallo. But that being said, it's not totally impossible it was the FBI. Unlikely, but not impossible. Law enforcement doesn't like "uppity" ethnic types who demand their rights. It's not likely though, because most people who die in the custody of law enforcement are shot while pulled over, or die in jail of asphyxiation that is ruled suicide. No need to take him out in front of so many witnesses. So most likely Gallo, or maybe the other bosses just got tired of his civil rights act. Whoever did it knew Joey Gallo was most likely going to be blamed.

That poor guy probably shit his pants when Colombo got shot! He probably thought he would get hit for not stopping the shooter before the first shot.

I wanted to add something to this conversation I had neglected to mention before, which in my mind points to Gambino as the likeliest suspect or at least the one with a lot of motivation to do so. I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of it in 114 preceding posts in this thread, but I think it's well worth bringing up in establishing further intent on Gambino's part.

According to a 1971 report in the New York Times, during a heated argument over the League, Colombo allegedly spat in Carlo Gambino's face.

Now I don't know about you, but with rare exception I would think it is not an unrealistic assumption to make that no matter who you are - if you spit in Carlo Gambino's face...well I'd say you'd likely have more time on this earth with a Pancreatic cancer diagnosis. I can't possibly imagine any scenario in which Gambino allows that to go unchecked.

I'm sure Colombo had plenty of other enemies and so it doesn't discount other theories by itself, but it certainly adds more motive to Gambino. Add that to the shooter being tied to known Gambino and Lucchese hangouts and associates and the picture begins to get a little clearer.

I really do think the likeliest signs with what evidence we have to work with point to Gambino, looking to hang blame on Gallo. Particularly with the use of a black man; many old timers didn't like Gallo's associations with black gangsters so it serves as a fitting bit of symbolism there.

Gambino was a shrewd guy, easily one of the best bosses of all time. This was an opportunity to get an annoyance out of the way as well as exact revenge. I would be more surprised at Gambino's character if he did not take advantage of this opportunity than if he did.

I don't believe for a minute that Colombo would spit in Gambino's face. I can't remember who said that? Was it law enforcement or something in Scarpa's files? ~LisaB

Colombo was a gentleman he wouldn't insult Gambino he respected the rules of Cosa Nostra.

1,000,000% I agree Hollander .........never happened

never happened ..he would have been chopped up and left in the street..

I still think it was a black revolution type attack. Them being angry that Joe Colombo hijacked their civil rights league shit. They consider Italians as white and the IACRL was a slap in the face to the black civil rights events of the 60s. They hype up Johnson, the black woman with him was Assatta Shakur aka JoAnne Chesimard. She slipped away. There has to be more photos of the woman around that day. I know the wiseguys were passing around a photo asking questions about her and johnson after it happened. Colombo's league was losing power, the other mobs had pulled their support.

Of course his son would blame the FBI, it was his families arch enemy since the 60s when Joe became boss. The FBI? Nah. If it was the CIA I might believe it. JFK threatened to splinter it into a thousand pieces. Colombo was no JFK and the FBI is no CIA

What’s everyone’s opinion on the fact Joe Colombo was paying 6k a week Juice to Carl Gambino???

Joe was Carlo's bitch. This was known and accepted

So what do we think the outcome was when the bitch told his master “no, I won’t step down from the league,it’s my baby” one week before he was murdered????

What is juice? Loanshark interest or tribute in this case? My opinion of one LCN boss paying tribute to another LCN boss doesn't look good on that family. Damn, so he was handing over $30k a month.

Maybe he was just paying back a shylock loan? I don't think it's unusual at all for people from one family to do business with another. Especially not in NYC with five families.

Part of the agreement when Gambino got Colombo the boss spot was Gambino loaned him 1.2 million. He paid 6k a week on that for a dozen years.....

It's not unusual. Especially back in those days. I'm sure from one boss to another, the wealthy Gambino provided monies at 1/4 point weekly to Colombo. The annual equivalent of 26%. A mere pittance by comparison to the 1/2 point, 3/4 point, or even 1% he charged in turn to his capo regimes weekly.

The capos push that same money out to their regime soldiers and "well thought of" associates anywhere from a 0.5 point to 1.5 points. And of course they in turn loan it out from 1.5% all the way to 5% weekly to their "retail" borrowers.

Everybody makes out.

If Joe was borrowing say $1-Million from Carlo. It cost him anywhere from $2500 to $5000 weekly. He collected from $5000 to $15,000 weekly.

I'm certain that Joe C wasn't complaining one bit LOL

I thought Colombo told Gambino that this was his last rally,his swam song. And after this he was gonna let Nat Marcone run it.

Half a point interest is a pretty good rate. Especially when you loan it out to other wiseguys at a point, point in a half or 2 points.