How come Canadian mafia is still thriving?

Maybe the US law enforcement is tougher than their Canadian counterpart, but I am asking more from a demographic perspective. One of the prime reasons why the US mob went extinction is that no enough Italian immigrants while the Italian Americans are more and more Americanized, thus the old mafia culture no longer appeals to them.
I think the same thing could apply to Italian Canadians, so I wonder where do mob families in Canada recruit new members? In Ontario, it seems most mafia groups are closely connected to Italian Ndrangheta, so I guess a lot of the top figures are Calabrians who moved to Canada and expanded their territories to the new continent. But do they recruit from the local Italian population or do they bring people from Italy? If they have to rely on the local population then they will eventually face the same problem that destroyed the US mob I guess.

It’s a mix of both. They have a lot of old timer Italians who immigrated here in the 1950’s-70’s that are mostly running the show. They have many “zips” from Calabria, and other parts of Italy. In terms of home recruitment, many new recruits are the kids and close relatives of the older ndrangheta members. It’s a highly family connected group, so sons follow their fathers for the most part. Once in a while, especially in recent days, they have non family connected italian Canadians who join up with them, (such as “Carmine guido”) however it is less common. In the case of non ndrangheta groups in Canada, they recruit any Italian who fits the American guidelines as well as non Italians as associates. (Joe bravo Fernandez, reynald desjardins, ect). The difference between Canada and the US is that Canada’s legal punishment is much less and the majority of Italian Canadians immigrated her in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s, so there are less percentage who are completely “canadianized”.

Although police have many informants you don't see official pentiti, because there is no anti-mafia legislation like the US and Italy.

the weak laws and sentencing is the reason why OC in general thrives in canada.
perfect example is gregory woolley (i know NOT mafia) in a state like california his 3 strikes would be up and he would be gone for life.
woolley is a career criminal and just got paroled after serving, counting his arrest date 5 yrs for crimes ranging from conspiracy to murder,drug importation and distribution and god knows what else.
this after being imprisoned twice previous for the same type charges.there was even proof in the most recent case that he was a top figure in the alliance of mafia,HA and mtl street gangs.
none of this in canada really matters because of our weak sentencing guidelines and backlogged justice system.
so whether a guy is a street gang member or mafia or not affiliated w/ anyone they all get the same sentence.being a member of the mafia,HA whatever is not a seperate crime in canada.
in most canadian municipalities it has long been against the law to wear/show yer colors in public as a member of an outlaw mc but u can't face time for being a member.

another reason for the mafia to thrive is that since the time of carmine galante in mtl mafia members have shown an ability to work in consort with other crime groups.
the most recent example would be the alliance mentioned above related to PROJECT MAGOT-MASTIFF 2015. but throughout the mafias history in mtl there has been similar alliances across the years of short or longterm agreements to set the price of narcotics mostly cocaine for example. the RIZZUTOS for example may have connections to large scale cocaine exporters but leave the actual import to one group (i.e.west end gang,independent import groups) through port of mtl,the HA may wholesale it to street gangs for distribution and HA collects profits and debt. there has not always been the urgency by the mafia to control every racket from top to bottom unlike some american mafia families.

historically american families show a hesitancy to work w/ other non italian crime groups although w/ dwindling #'s through arrest and attrition they may not have a choice soon.

Here in America, the mob always has RICO hanging over their heads.

Appreciate everyone for commenting, so basically two factors played a big role, one is that Canadian authorities don`t have RICO charge, the second is that Italian immigrants in Canada mostly came after the 50s thus are less Canadianized. It seems to me that the US is the only country that cracked down on organized crime with firm hands but decided not to act against unorganized street violence? Canada maybe doesn`t do much about OC but most cities are much safer compared to US cities.
I wonder how long will Italian mafia persist in Canada, I mean sooner or later they will also lose their recruitment pool, maybe in 20 or 30 years I think? When most Italian Canadians lose their connections to the home country.

Another outside the box thought, if you inform in the U.S., you can end up in California or Florida, some nice places. Also, with the tougher laws in the U.S., nobody seems to even attempt to clip a rat anymore. There are guys living in the open in the same area they grew up in (Arilotta in Springfield MA for example, Monacello in Philly). Not necessarily a death sentence anymore.

RICO is a big part of it. But it comes down to RECRUITMENT, RECRUITMENT, RECRUITMENT.

When it comes to Cosa Nostra in the US, they just don't have that pool of guys they can reach back and grab. The values have changed here, they aren't as closely aligned with the old country as they are in Canada.

As someone mentions, there was/is still a large influx of immigrants coming over into Canada from various parts of Italy.

A lot of the families have transferred that allegiance into Canada, with family still operating in Italy. That's a huge advantage.

I do think several US families still keep in contact with both Sicily and Calabria. It's just that violence and murders are less common nowadays.

The difference is in the players,in the USA the mob isnt italian anymore when in Canada the ndrangheta and the Rizzuto still have strong relations with the mothrland and before the Rizzuto deportation the canadian mob was invisible and for the LE the big problem was the biker feud between the Hell Angels and the Rock Machine.
Plus more italians emigratrd to Canada intil the 1970s.
Conclusion the Canada is like the USA before Apalachin and Valachi flipping.

The Cuntrera/Rizzuto and also Siderno group in Canada always maintained contacts with the American Families.

Interesting. Doesn`t the Ndrangheta also have a cell in NY? I bet they are working with the five families all the time.

The Gigliotti drug case,they are from Calabria.

Was LCN involved in that case?

For example Frank Cali was linked to the Ursinos via Nicola Simonetta. Simonetta served many years in Canadian prisons.

Gregorio Gigliotti had ties with Anthony Federici of the Genovese family.

I forget to mention the drug trade/production which is huge in Canada.

Here's a very informative interview with Stephen Metelsky about the Canadian Mafia.

https://twitter.com/MobBuffalo/status/1373387181696356355?s=20

The Canadian Mafia still acts like a traditional mob group from the old country, it's not as Americanized and publicity hungry like the American Mafia, IMO.

Because of the Canadian law and they don’t have a FBI or a intelligence center like the USA.

They are catching up ..... wont be long now .

Comes down to weak laws and a history of weak sentencing imo so the deterrent isn't all that great..

Canada badly needs a RICO type statute ... and tougher minimum sentencing.

Not a lot of difference. Don't forget Vito Rizzuto served only 5 years in an AMERICAN prison for involvement in 3 murders. Yes American law enforcement is tougher, but I think it's more to do with the American Mafia being watered-down and diluted, they simply just died of old age into extinction.

Dilly Dolly, I agree that the Canadian Mob is still a second generation and is just now entering it's 3rd generation. Some of the families still respect the old generation where as others do not. It seems to me that the ones that don't are less disciplined and careless and become easy targets for infiltration for informants and law enforcement. In the states Mob guys are a dime a dozen, no values for the old ways exist, money and power have tipped the scales on honor and respect.

Where Vito Rizzuto only served 5 years in an American jail, for 3 murders and Giuseppe Violi is serving 16 years for drugs, for what I understand was entrapment, makes me question that the Canadian justice system is very strict when setting an example or singling out a certain group because of an alleged Mob family lineage. Dan D I don't see a weak law being exercised in this case do you?

No RICO is a big contributing factor

RICO is a big contributing factor, but not the only one. There's simply nothing left. Other gangs are thriving in America, because they have never-ending recruitment pools, whereas the Italian ghettos where the Mafia drew their troops are all dried up. They moved to the suburbs, suburban rap fan punks don't make good mobsters.

Violi was caught trying to move 200-300 k's of coke ... and it wasn't his first ride at the rodeo having already spent a number of years in the can for the same thing in the late 90's.

I'll offer up this example though ... next to drugs, gambling remains one of the mob's biggest revenue streams ... remember that "massive" platinum sportsbook bust in Ontario? Most got slaps on the wrists, most got suspended sentences and I believe only one or two actually went to prison for VERY limited periods. They know that and they will flaunt the laws to their advantage. Heck one of the main players, Barletta, got 15 months and barely served 3 for his involvement and the stooge they put in charge of one of their mid-city hubs, that the court found made over half a million in illegal gambling profits only got a year, less pre-trial lock up... he didn't even serve jail time after the sentence.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAAQAHa3JpYXJpcwAAAAAB&resultIndex=1

Now imagine a RICO type statue?

I'll concede I may be a bit ignorant of the US laws/sentencing but perhaps someone from the United States for example tell us what a typical sentence would be if someone got caught for bookmaking, racketeering and they added a RICO charge.... would they be out on the street with probation, and zero time served?

Dan D - I agree with your summation of the Rico Statute being applied to Canadian Law that those bring charged with book mak8mg, gambling, loan sharking would not get slaps on the wrist as they did in the morning Platinum case. I heard that there was a bill drafted to combat OC in Canada, can't remember the name though.

I asked a source here in Montreal about the Violi case and he told me that Morena brought Violi and Carfagna to meet a so called drug carrier out at the west coast, there was only one meeting. The carrier was actually an undercover cop and the whole conversation was between Morena and Carfagns and the cop, Violi told the source that he smelled something was off with the carrier and didn't say much. No drugs came from the deal and they never met again. Violi gave Morena shit for introducing him to this guy. I guess the fact that he was present during this meeting was enough for the RCMP and he was charged along with Carfagna with conspiracy to import. If this was in the states it would of been thrown out, as I believe and correct me if I'm wrong that entrapment is against the law down there?

Interesting you say that about Violi being done wrong, I heard something similar, but more along the lines of the cops involved did something illegal.

One of the cops now is giving seminars on OC, he also works at the College where two of these conspirators in the Angelo Musitano murder went to school. Seemed like whatever OC element was able to influence the cops 👮‍♀️, used that to get Violi or something along those lines.

There may of been a promise of payoffs via Coke profits to these cops, most of them are broke employees, like the majority of people.

Maybe it’s related?

Come on guys, let's not sit here and pretend that in America every wiseguy gets slammed with a 30-50 year sentence, or life without parole, every single time. Even with RICO, many wiseguys plead out and get light sentences because the government doesn't want the headache of a long and costly trial. Joseph DeSimone only served 10 years for murder involvement and gambling, and that's just one example. I think it's just a roll of the dice, or a toss-up, some mobsters get sweet deals, others get reamed with no grease. We have guys getting a pittance of a sentence in the 1990s and 2000s for the same type of crimes bosses received 100 years for in the 1980s. I still stand my ground, the American Mafia is in such a pathetic state more because of a shrinking talent pool than RICO.

I agree with the talent pool angle as being ONE factor but can't accept it as the only factor.

I regard it as the top factor, it tops RICO. Can't use RICO against a group of criminals that just aren't there because they went extinct.

In America you can find just as many mobsters who served or are serving light sentences as you can in Canada. Let's admit it, Canada has more talented mobsters who are just better at it

Dilly Dolly, I wouldn't say more talented I would say better disciplined as they still have that connection to the 2nd generation and to Italy

Molochio, yes you are correct the guy name is Metelsky I posted a video on his presentation earlier on in the thread.

Okay Mike, that explanation works too.

Wow, that’s so interesting, I’m pretty sure that’s the guy. I personally don’t put anything past the police. That Metelsky abused his Level 2 CISC clearance to access some information or generate it, basically, he got orders to remove the Violis at all cost or something.

I even heard shortly after Pat Musitano was killed, that a ‘cousin’ of John Papalia was talking about how it needed to happen.

Turns out the guy married one of his buddy’s sisters whose family may be from Railway Street, pretty sure they’re Sicilian tho [Speziale?].

The guy is/was a loser Vice Cop named Sam Moore, same thing, seems too strange.

Interesting about Metelsky, I wonder why they would want the Violi brothers at all costs? I would like to know which Papalia cousin said that about musitano? My cousin in Hamilton knows a few of them they would run into each other time from time in the bars. I think it was Huss Village or something.
Nothing worse than a corrupt cop though! We have many here.

Dilly Dolly, you have good points also.

Something related to the agreements Vito Rizzuto made before and after coming out of prison with NYC/America, Canada (Hamilton, Toronto and Montreal) as well as Internationally.

He was providing contacts for premium coke or whatever (strippers IDK?) to those he believed could use them and didn’t necessarily attack his ‘Family’ blood relatives, but maybe his ‘Family’ business interests, during his incarceration. Also, it provided a washing of hands for all involved, and let him focus on Vendetta, while business returned to normal. It seemed to be working until he died, and things went crazy again.

The cop is saying he is a cousin, they should run into that guy. I wouldn’t know about the bar, sorry!

Somehow these cops got word on what was going on and for whatever reasons, prefer the bikers over the mob, as while as any OC element that would work against it. They HA/Cops in Ontario have a ‘North Hollywood’ so they can influence people via that, including the drugs, money and the prostitution of the above type of operation (women, men, kids).

@MikeM

Also, would you know anything about Rocco Luppino being referred to as ‘Caesar’ or anything along those lines, in and around December 2018. I didn’t know at the time, but it was right around the time when the Violis were being sentenced.

Whatever was indicating this, may have been related to the above, Rizzuto and his agreements. IMO it definitely is more international than regional and more than likely has deep roots in South America (Cartel & Mob).

Basically, for whatever reason, someone was supposed to be removed by the end of 2018, then Tony Magi was whacked. Shortly after that CeCe Luppino was murdered, and similar to Saverio Serrano, he was from a mob family, but appeared to be a legitimate entrepreneur.

The group that attempted to kill Serrano was out of Hamilton with HA ties, same group that whacked Angelo Musitano.
Thanks man!

Molochio, I asked around about Rocco being referred as to "Caesar" and nobody has ever referred to him as that name. He is usually referred to as Mr. Luppino or Rocco. I also asked my cousin in Hamilton and he said he never heard of any agreement with Rizzuto and Hamilton. Again there could of been, put cousin is privy to street talk and that never came up. Where did you hear that from?

Also the driving force behind the hit on Angelo and Serrano was said to have come from Danny Rameiri. Apparently one of his guys Cudmore had some connections with the HA my cuz knew him from the Hamilton north end.

I don't think there was any relation to the Magi hit and CeCe hit. Magi would Fuck over anybody he could and would use his connections to silence people, he was said to be involved in Vito's sons hit while he was incarcerated. CeCe from what I'm told was a complete gentleman and very respectful much like his father and his family.

Again this info is from people that actually knew him, not regurgitated buckshit from news articles and court documents

Thanks man! Ya, I don’t think it was a nickname, more of like a royal title, in the sense he needed to be obeyed from that point on. Obviously, it was nothing, my bad.

I don’t know if Hamilton was specifically spoke to via Rizzuto, but rather people that would delegate to Hamilton (ie. NYC, Buffalo, Italy), not totally sure. I don’t think he or anyone else planned on him dropping dead, so that sort of plays into it.

At the time I was observing some big money circles, the Wall Street type, so I was hearing all kind of things. I never really put any thought into it until Angelo Musitano got killed, reason being that I heard he was going to be killed in April 2014. Couple of the other people I was around, they have passed away, they were in their 90’s when stuff started getting weird around the same time. Also, been around a lot of fight gyms, but haven’t been around them since even before 2014.

When he did in 2017, it was a eye opener, since then a lot of stuff has turned out to be true and other stuff, like above, ended up being dead wrong.

Figured I’d asked, the timing seemed strange, but ya, it seemed like he was a legitimate entrepreneur and well liked.

You have Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta even Camorra in Canada and its a liberal country Asians, Russians Jamaicans all kinds of organized crime.

Perhaps ... but we do have lax laws and lax sentencing ... if the deterrents are strong, it emboldens the criminal.

Are we talking about Domenic Violi? There was more than one encounter ... and in fact the court facts bore out a series of drug transactions.. not just one.

Background facts are only breifly summarized in one of court orders published in that case... https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AAAAAQAFdmlvbGkAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2

I'll defer to those with greater knowledge though as I admittedly didn't follow the Violi case closely at the time.

In reply to @MikeM ... yes entrapment is illegal here lol but I'm not so sure this one fits the bill ..looks like he was regularly in contact with the police agent.

You can't downplay the strength of the US Federal Government. They don't play fair and have unlimited resources when it comes to fighting OC. Their conviction rate is like 90+%. They have a never-ending supply of paid informants and some of the silliest laws known with the witness protection program. That program entices people to cooperate and they use it when it doesn't even make sense. They've done deals with guys who killed dozens of people(Gravano, Massino, etc) people who've dealt billions in drugs (Flores twins). The US judicial system is so corrupt and vindictive you'd have to be crazy or really stupid to get involved in OC in this era. Look what happened to Paul Ragusa, the guy did around 20 years and when he's released to halfway house they use one of his former associates to cook up a crime and throw him back in prison. It was an obvious case of entrapment.

Don’t know which one or both, seems to be that the only guy around Abdalla, one of the suspects in the Angelo Musitano murder would know the most.

These guys were running boat cruises or whatever and their cops buddies (both on the street and at Mohawk College) were involved with some OC backing, maybe pulled these kids in via drugs, money and sex.

This Cudmore was texting 13yr old girls for dates, so it shows the type of people that are involved whether it was Ranieri or whoever, none of those guys had brains, rather lots of guts. If Ranieri was with Bravo, does that mean he also answered to Desjardins?

So the shot callers and leaders are still available to be discovered, just look to who hasn’t been hurt at all in this mess and you will find more than likely the real guilty people IMO.

Yep, that's why it's still way more attractive to get into organized crime in Canada and Western Europe. Comparatively lax laws and lax sentencing.

Though I don't know if it's going to stay this way. Italian OC is generally speaking very professional in Western Europe, but other drug trafficking groups are way too brazen. Putting hits on lawyers, sending out death threats to mayors...if they go on like this, give it another decade or so and our judicial system will become just as vindictive and penalties will become just as harsh.

Let's cut the crap lots of crime groups and gangs are thriving in America, just not Italians. It's because they're huge and enormous in numbers, they have the manpower that LCN just can't muster anymore. I still say LCN's downfall is due more to a loss in personnel than RICO or the Federal government.

This

Numbers are definitely a factor, no matter how you put it. Street/prison/biker gangs get busted all the time as well and in terms of the sophistication of the crimes they commit they're below LCN and in 95% of the time it's related to narcotics, which is profitable but high risk. The difference is that especially street gangs have thousands of young guys that got fuck all else in life and are willing to get into crime to make a living and are willing to deal with all the violence and risks of incarceration that come along with it. Very few make it to the top and once they're at the top it's for a relatively short period of time, but the point is: there's always someone ready to replace the other.

LCN as a criminal organization can not afford itself to operate like that. Not 20 years ago and certainly not now. And yes, this is definitely due to the lack of fresh and hungry blood. They can still recruit and they'll still be able to recruit for a while, but not like other gangs can. Say 40 years ago, there were still thousands of young Italian guys living in ethnically insular blue collar neighborhoods in East Coast cities. By now the majority of those families and their relatives have moved up in the world. There's none of that hunger anymore, most of them are not living in those tough neighborhoods anymore and earning your money on the streets has no longer become a necessity.
Adding to this, the majority of them have also become thoroughly Americanized, and most of the younger members of those very families are like 1/2 to 1/4 of Italian heritage. Intermarriages have taken place with Irish, Poles, Jews...in some (and increasing) cases even with Blacks and Hispanics. They're not Italian American any longer, they're just "American".

Of course, the Mob will still be around for a while. They still can recruit and they still are recruiting. They're still involved in illicit money making schemes and in our lifetime, we're not going to see the end of that. The name "Cosa Nostra" has enough of a mythic lure to it that as long as there is a sizable Italian American community somewhere, some people are always going to choose that path.
In terms of "power" though? Unless the American Mafia is going to start importing young and hungry Sicilians, Calabrians, Neapolitans or Apulians as if they're canned tomatoes, their streetpower for sure is not going to increase and will most likely remain in decline.