I honor Columbus Day every year!.... If you bother reading the poignant NYPost article I put up, I think it speaks for itself in defense of Columbus (and all those of his time and era). It is often not fair to judge history's events, or yesteryears people and their mentality from an time period hundreds of years ago by the standards of today.
If we were in their shoes, living in those times and facing what they faced, we might well think as they did. It was the "norm" of that era.
But no sense in debating the issue. You have every right to think as you wish. So do I. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything.
I for one, thoroughly enjoy the holiday every year. And for me it will always be Cristoforo Columbo Day! .... not some makeshift, make believe holiday to appease those who wanna be "politically correct!"
Have a nice day!
PS: I'll lay my bottom dollar that the powers that be will never take Columbus Day off the calendar. Or change it for that matter...it is too iconic, to too many people!
The 1400’s were a primitive time. The indigenous indians were brutal to one another. Colombus was a great man.
You are very much correct Lenox. And I totally agree with you wholeheartedly!
There are 2 excellent articles in todays NYDaily News regarding Columbus and the holiday. I don't know how to pull them and post them for you and others, but I will ask Lisa to do it for us ok? I just know that it will resinate with you and others who look at the subject of Columbus and his discovery of the New World objectively. Remember we were just coming out of the "Dark Ages." His accomplishment was astounding and "literarily" life changing (for the better) for the masses of humanity.
When reviewed in totality he indeed WAS a great man as you aptly said! -- For that matter Columbus Day in general is our day to show Italian pride!
So in that spirit, on this special day I'd also like to mention and recognize Amerigo Vespucci (for whom our great country the United States of "America" is named after), Giovanni da Verrazano (another great early explorer for whom the "Verrazano Bridge" is named for), John Cabot (better known as Giovanni Caboto), Guglielmo Marconi and Antonio Meucci (the true inventors of the telegraph and telephone), the great Michelangelo, the famed musicians-composers Giacomo Puccini and Antonio Vivaldi, Dante Alighieri, Giuseppe Garibaldi, the famous tactician Niccolo' Machiavelli, Caravaggio, Raphael...........and so on, and so forth!
.........The List is breathtaking and endless!
Happy Columbus Day to all who celebrate... and Viva Italia!
......And to Lenox, Happy Columbus Day my friend! ;-)
PS: Oh shit! I almost forgot Leonardo di Vinci, Lorenzo de' Medici, Federico Fellini, and Sandro Botticelli.... how absolutely silly of me..... "Mi scusi"
The 1400’s were a primitive time. The indigenous indians were brutal to one another. Colombus was a great man.
Also: You can add about that brutality to every culture and their known as Natives.
Now you are talking gibberish. Your last statement doesn't even read correctly. It doesn't make sense. What are you trying to say?
And let's try and keep it friendly alright guys. No reason to get nasty with each other. We each have a right to our own views. right or wrong?
Lenox and I happen to think Columbus (and his ilk) were great men. Visionaries and clearly became iconic figures in history. (And may I add icons to our Italian populous). We are very proud of him, as we should be! -----
Honestly BF, If you go and truly read the newspaper articles and opinion pieces I had posted up in this thread, you may very well soften your views. Open your eyes and try and see both sides of the coin, thats all I ask of you ok?
........ I almost forgot to add the one and only "Juius Caesar"
........ Admittedly even in criminality the Italian people were (and are) singular in their vision and breathe. Where else the world over have you ever seen an organization, a near model of perfection, that has stood the test of time the way that Cosa Nostra has? Nowhere!!
Hundreds of years later and it is still going strong, and is worldwide in its scope and exploits. THAT is without a doubt a phenomena!
Maybe an illegal phenomena, but a phenomena nonetheless.
A Frank Costello. A Lucky Luciano. A Carlo Gambino.... these men were criminal visionaries. And they all had Italian blood flowing through their veins...that was not a coincidence.
............ The Nina, the Pinta, the Santa Maria!
The 1400’s were a primitive time. The indigenous indians were brutal to one another. Colombus was a great man.
Also: You can add about that brutality to every culture and their known as Natives.
Now you are talking gibberish. Your last statement doesn't even read correctly. It doesn't make sense. What are you trying to say?
I'm not speaking gibberish, you may have misinterpreted that way. All cultures ( ethnic groups around the world) have a history of brutality.
Originally Posted by NYMafia
And let's try and keep it friendly alright guys. No reason to get nasty with each other. We each have a right to our own views. right or wrong?
Lenox and I happen to think Columbus (and his ilk) were great men. Visionaries and clearly became iconic figures in history. (And may I add icons to our Italian populous). We are very proud of him, as we should be! -----
Honestly BF, If you go and truly read the newspaper articles and opinion pieces I had posted up in this thread, you may very well soften your views. Open your eyes and try and see both sides of the coin, thats all I ask of you ok?
I've read that article and frankly it's written with tendentiousness. The historic background of the chosen day and his achievements in his occupation. The flip side of the coin is how history unfolded for commodities , cultures , & mischewed events. There's going to be perspective dissonance depending on your background. You & that bigot can cling to Italian heritage respectively yet don't just brush to the side other cultures who aren't fond of the day.
But BF, thats exactly what we're talking about! Columbus' record of accomplishment and achievement. HIs singular accomplishment that opened up a brand new and exciting chapter in the history of "mankind". We ALL benefited from his discoveries.
Nobody is saying that Christopher Columbus was a "perfect" man, or that he should achieve sainthood and be canonized like Mother Theresa. He was flesh and blood like you and I. Like every other man on earth. And he had his failings...just like you and I.
But that shouldn't diminish or wipe out his singular stellar accomplishments should it?... I'll answer my own question here. Of course not!
That would be like canceling Martin Luther King Day, and erasing his accomplishments because we know that he had an eye for the ladies and was a philanderer. It was said that he cheated on his wife Mrs. King with female aides and young attractive women who were enamored with him that he met on his travels while out preaching many times. Some even say that he was suspected of diverting funds donated to his cause for his own use.
But we take the good with the "not so good", or bad in life right. The accomplishments of great men are to be recognized in life, and if those things achieved were significant enough, thats why we erect statues to them, and name holidays in their honor. Period!
At the end of the day you'll chose to believe what is "convenient" for you. I on the other hand will believe what I so chose. Just thank God that you have that privilege by living in America, and a free society that allows free thinking, and that you don't reside in Russia or some other country that stifles free speech.
Oh, and by the way, you can largely thank Chris for laying the groundwork that one too! ... Happy Columbus Day!
At the end of the day this thread shows that two intelligent, responsible adults, NYMafia and BH, can agree to disagree. That's the American way. Then again there's a Bigot in the mix and that really sucks. Having different opinions are one thing, but it's more important to respect one another.
But BF, thats exactly what we're talking about! Columbus' record of accomplishment and achievement. HIs singular accomplishment that opened up a brand new and exciting chapter in the history of "mankind". We ALL benefited from his discoveries.
Nobody is saying that Christopher Columbus was a "perfect" man, or that he should achieve sainthood and be canonized like Mother Theresa. He was flesh and blood like you and I. Like every other man on earth. And he had his failings...just like you and I.
But that shouldn't diminish or wipe out his singular stellar accomplishments should it?... I'll answer my own question here. Of course not!
That would be like canceling Martin Luther King Day, and erasing his accomplishments because we know that he had an eye for the ladies and was a philanderer. It was said that he cheated on his wife Mrs. King with female aides and young attractive women who were enamored with him that he met on his travels while out preaching many times. Some even say that he was suspected of diverting funds donated to his cause for his own use.
But we take the good with the "not so good", or bad in life right. The accomplishments of great men are to be recognized in life, and if those things achieved were significant enough, thats why we erect statues to them, and name holidays in their honor. Period!
At the end of the day you'll chose to believe what is "convenient" for you. I on the other hand will believe what I so chose. Just thank God that you have that privilege by living in America, and a free society that allows free thinking, and that you don't reside in Russia or some other country that stifles free speech.
Oh, and by the way, you can largely thank Chris for laying the groundwork that one too! ... Happy Columbus Day!
At the end of the day this thread shows that two intelligent, responsible adults, NYMafia and BH, can agree to disagree. That's the American way. Then again there's a Bigot in the mix and that really sucks. Having different opinions are one thing, but it's more important to respect one another.
Not necassary agreeing nor disagreeing. Just cultural differences in who/why 1 celebrates it & others don't.
You have your "Indigenous" rights because of the written constitution of this great country, which was developed after it got its start on day #1 from those brave sailors of the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.
Viva Italia, Viva Spain, and Viva America!
The fact that you and I can even friendly debate issues such as these, I think speaks volumes about what was truly accomplished by those who took those first footsteps onto soil of what would become the United States of America.... In hindsight I find all of what we discuss even more astonishing and significant because of it.
All Americans should celebrate Colombus Day in my opinion due to the great contributions he brought. He actually changed the way food is distributed and available to the world. He improved diet and health. Of course so much more.
You have your "Indigenous" rights because of the written constitution of this great country, which was developed after it got its start on day #1 from those brave sailors of the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.
Wow
The same Constitution that considered Black people to be 3/5 of a person?
Columbus was a savage himself. Pure and simple. The list of Italians that are far more deserving of the type of recognition Columbus receives is a mile long. I'm part Italian and have no problem admitting this, because I don't tie my pride of my heritage to a single figure.
You have your "Indigenous" rights because of the written constitution of this great country, which was developed after it got its start on day #1 from those brave sailors of the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.
Wow
The same Constitution that considered Black people to be 3/5 of a person?
Columbus was a savage himself. Pure and simple. The list of Italians that are far more deserving of the type of recognition Columbus receives is a mile long. I'm part Italian and have no problem admitting this, because I don't tie my pride of my heritage to a single figure.
RollinBones,
Indeed. It was more or less counting only 3/5 of my culture's population for political gain in Congress.
I'll say that with all the boosting he ( & other guys) done of Columbus is for historic reasons tied to the achievements of voyages. What comes afterwards is extreme baggage for multiple cultures ( including the Italians themselves). Now the eurocentric themes that the USA develop from is predominantly on the British Isles not Italy. Thanks for your input & perspective Bones.
You have your "Indigenous" rights because of the written constitution of this great country, which was developed after it got its start on day #1 from those brave sailors of the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.
Wow
The same Constitution that considered Black people to be 3/5 of a person?
Columbus was a savage himself. Pure and simple. The list of Italians that are far more deserving of the type of recognition Columbus receives is a mile long. I'm part Italian and have no problem admitting this, because I don't tie my pride of my heritage to a single figure.
---- Rolling bones, this is getting silly now. Our constitution is not perfect, nor is our country. But I dare say that you still fair better here than ANY other country in the world. If you don't think so, then go try and get a taste of another country and see. We have come a long way baby, but admittedly have a long journey still ahead of us to make a "more" perfect union.
I don't know if you are aware of our history (since you are part Italian), but although maybe not to the degree that blacks were, did you know that Italians in this country faced HUGE prejudice. Do you know how many times Italians were lynched in this country just like blacks were? Do you even know that nearly ALL newspapers and periodicals across the country at one times referred to Italians as "non-white" and as "worse than blacks"? The New York Times, etc.and other major periodicals.
In fact we were considered "black", and "worse than the negro" which was actual phrases repeatedly written in major daily's. We had NO rights. For many years in fact.
So don't blame Columbus, or any other Italian for slavery or any other atrocities committed to Blacks, Jews, Chinese, Spanish, etc.... because the Italian people (your Italian people) stood in the front of the line for kicks in the ass, and a rope around their necks! - And FYI, my Italian identify is not solely tied to Columbus but a whole host of Italians and our history dating back to antiquity. Columbus is but one such name I am proud of. As far as "savage" ? Lol.... you've been brainwashed by all this current "political correctness" thats so popular nowadays. I think (I can just feel) that I'm a bit older than you. And I come from a different mindset and viewpoint. Your views are fine and you are entitled to them as I said to BF. They're just not mine.
I know I will never change your outlook, its too engrained in you. (I'm not even trying to).
Let's agree to disagree thats all. Ok? At the end of the day "it is what it is" as the man said.
It was the democrats that considered blacks 3/5 of a person. People treated everyone poorly at one time or another in history, everyone was a victim. I hate to say it but having slaves was considered normal 200 -300 years ago. In fact it was normal in every civilization at one time or another. Slavery was a primitive institution that ended 160 years ago when they gave a man a shot of whisky before his leg was amputated.
The 1400’s were a much more primitive time, it was at the end of the dark ages. How did blacks treat other blacks in the 1400’s? How about the 1800’s? Im talking blacks in Africa. They were barbaric to one another so dont make it sound as if it was only whites, it wasnt. Colombus was a great man and he did a lot for man kind. Not to get off topic but look how barbaric blacks treat other blacks in our inner cities today in modern times ! 93% of all blacks are killed by other blacks, not white people and not white cops.. Look at the atrocities going on in Africa today: blacks slaughtering other blacks and enslaving other blacks. I think black family is trying to point his finger in the wrong direction. No offense black family but africa still has cannibals and how about what some blacks do to young black girls when they are mutilated? Thats happening today, not 200 years ago. Are you saying blacks are 200 years behind ?
It was the democrats that considered blacks 3/5 of a person. People treated everyone poorly at one time or another in history, everyone was a victim. I hate to say it but having slaves was considered normal 200 -300 years ago. In fact it was normal in every civilization at one time or another. Slavery was a primitive institution that ended 160 years ago when they gave a man a shot of whisky before his leg was amputated.
The 1400’s were a much more primitive time, it was at the end of the dark ages. How did blacks treat other blacks in the 1400’s? How about the 1800’s? Im talking blacks in Africa. They were barbaric to one another so dont make it sound as if it was only whites, it wasnt. Colombus was a great man and he did a lot for man kind. Not to get off topic but look how barbaric blacks treat other blacks in our inner cities today in modern times ! 93% of all blacks are killed by other blacks, not white people and not white cops.. Look at the atrocities going on in Africa today: blacks slaughtering other blacks and enslaving other blacks. I think black family is trying to point his finger in the wrong direction. No offense black family but africa still has cannibals and how about what some blacks do to young black girls when they are mutilated? Thats happening today, not 200 years ago. Are you saying blacks are 200 years behind whites?
--- VERY, very well said Lenox! My compliments to you for being able to articulate some very important truths and "facts" of history, and even current facts of today.
I cannot believe he has the audacity to accuse Colombus of being a bad person and not contributing greatly to mankind. He makes ridiculous statements and tries to throw in “ college boy talk†to bolster his opinion. Here is what is happening in Africa TODAY, black against black. No white people involved.
Rebels and government troops in Congo have committed atrocities including mass rape, cannibalism and the dismemberment of civilians, according to testimony published on Tuesday by a team of UN human rights experts who said the world must pay heed. The team investigating a conflict in the Kasai region of Democratic Republic of Congo told the UN Human Rights Council last week that they suspected all sides were guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Their detailed 126-page report catalogued gruesome attacks committed in the conflict, which erupted in late 2016, involving the Kamuina Nsapu and Bana Mura militias and Congo’s armed forces, the FARDC. The testimony included boys being forced to rape their mothers, little girls being told witchcraft would allow them to catch bullets, and women forced to choose gang-rape or death. “What happened in the Kasai simply beggars description,†Congo’s Human Rights Minister Marie-Ange Mushobekwa told the Council. “One victim told us that in May 2017 she saw a group of Kamuina Nsapu militia, some of whom sported female genitals as medals,†the report said.
Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, South Dakota, Vermont and Wisconsin do not officially celebrate Columbus day and recognize Native American Day instead.
Flag day and Arbor day (among other overlooked days) may be in the calendar's you see or even buy but that doesn't necessarily reflect their importance to everyone.
He was a murderous fraud and by the very definition of the word - an immigrant
Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, South Dakota, Vermont and Wisconsin do not officially celebrate Columbus day and recognize Native American Day instead.
Flag day and Arbor day (among other overlooked days) may be in the calendar's you see or even buy but that doesn't necessarily reflect their importance to everyone.
He was a murderous fraud and by the very definition of the word - an immigrant
-- LOL.... Another "Politically correct, spoon fed, brainwashed innocent!"
If you take ALL those states combined (with the exception of Michigan) there's probably not 4 Italians total! Let them try that in NY, NJ, CT, MA, RI, FL, etc, etc...... they'd run em out of town! Lol
Cristoforo Colombo WAS a great explorer (obviously), a great sailor, a great visionary, a ballsy guy, and a great man! History lays out the case for that plain and simple. And no matter how you try, how matter how they try, THAT will never change. Don't be jealous, Don't be mad, just accept it!
I don't know what ethnicity you are or aren't. But whatever you are, I'm sure you have good and bad in your background. Everyone does. But regardless of where you (or your people) come from, few people in the history of the world have ever matched, let alone topped the Italian people. Not to brag, but we are a very accomplished bunch. Columbus is part of that, a big part.
It was the democrats that considered blacks 3/5 of a person. People treated everyone poorly at one time or another in history, everyone was a victim. I hate to say it but having slaves was considered normal 200 -300 years ago. In fact it was normal in every civilization at one time or another. Slavery was a primitive institution that ended 160 years ago when they gave a man a shot of whisky before his leg was amputated.
The 1400’s were a much more primitive time, it was at the end of the dark ages. How did blacks treat other blacks in the 1400’s? How about the 1800’s? Im talking blacks in Africa. They were barbaric to one another so dont make it sound as if it was only whites, it wasnt. Colombus was a great man and he did a lot for man kind. Not to get off topic but look how barbaric blacks treat other blacks in our inner cities today in modern times ! 93% of all blacks are killed by other blacks, not white people and not white cops.. Look at the atrocities going on in Africa today: blacks slaughtering other blacks and enslaving other blacks. I think black family is trying to point his finger in the wrong direction. No offense black family but africa still has cannibals and how about what some blacks do to young black girls when they are mutilated? Thats happening today, not 200 years ago. Are you saying blacks are 200 years behind ?
I've been on this forum for 8 years and majority of your comments are rehashed talking points you'll find on stormfront ( other similar cesspools blogs) . Before you there was others ( banned) that went down the same lane of dialogue. So here goes the usual talking points:
1. Slavery is still active and will always be apart of human history. Obviously.
2A. Dark ages for much of the Europe region, not the rest of the world simultaneously. There wasn't " Blacks" back then since the whole concept of racial term/category arose from a different continent & timeframe. Therefore your speaking on a thousand plus African cultures at once which ranges from Kingdoms/Empires to nomadic agrarian people. The interactions are immense in the 1400s as 1800s, please read up on this subject .
2B. At what point in my previous comments I specifically stated anything about whites?
2C. If you didn't want to get off topic then why bring unrelated subjects to it? What does atrocities in Africa which can be find worldwide have to do with the subject at hand? Have you not heard of strawman fallacy.
3. Yet your diatribe insist on being " offensive", subliminal context. Your point of view sees " Blacks" being 200 years behind. Remember when you get off subject YOUR pointing away from the topic. You stick out like a Arum italicum with keywords: Primitive & Barbaric.
4. I've already know what the response is going to be so save it. Y'all can like the accomplishments yet not dive into the details of those things without being counter " political correct" or talking down on others while uplifting a voyager.
" Hope & pray they take Columbus Day off the calender"
Of course you do. It will accomplish about as much as tearing an old ass statue down
---- I agree with you on that Colonel. As many have said and I do agree, tearing down a statue doesn't change history or erase history. Let's all learn from history. Lets move forward so we as a people can get to a higher ground. But not deny history.
That is unfair to the generations of kids who come after us. How do the children learn what was what, if we change history in an attempt to "clean it up"?
For that matter our first president George Washington was said to own slaves in his lifetime. Do we take down all his statues? Do we write him out of the history books? Do we erase his image from our currency? Do we cancel Washington's Birthday? Of course not, that would be preposterous. Actions like that would deny history.
For that matter Ulysses S. Grant and other great generals and public figures of the United States had slaves as well.
So if we are not taking those actions against the likes of Washington, Grant, and other famous people of those early American eras, why target Columbus?
It is unfair! If you are going to cancel Columbus, then let's cancel them all!.... In fact maybe we should call in all the history books ever written and rewrite history as we would like to see it.... where does it stop is what I'm asking?
--- I do agree with G. Vicari on one thing, maybe its best this entire thread be shut down because its getting way out of hand. It was never meant to stir up all this controversy, or to be divisive. Let's live and let live. God bless everybody. No harm No foul..... we all have different views and opinions, and I for one respect everybody's right to express those opinions in a gentlemanly way. As I stated before thats the whole idea of America correct? TO be able to be ourselves. Let's all strive for that. Peace out
I guess we erase everything the romans and the greeks contributed because they owned slaves. I guess we erase everything the egyptians have done because they owned slaves. By the way, both the romans and greeks were also enslaved at one time or another. The muslims owned slaves, as did the jews and every other civilization including the vikings, they were primitive times. Although slavery still exists today in Africa but no one wants to mention that because it doesnt fit a specific narrative. I guess black lives dont matter in Africa, black lives only matter when a criminal is resisting arrest. Back to Colombus, he may have done some bad things that were “ normal for the time periodâ€, he did so much good and contributed so much.
You have your "Indigenous" rights because of the written constitution of this great country, which was developed after it got its start on day #1 from those brave sailors of the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.
Wow
The same Constitution that considered Black people to be 3/5 of a person?
Columbus was a savage himself. Pure and simple. The list of Italians that are far more deserving of the type of recognition Columbus receives is a mile long. I'm part Italian and have no problem admitting this, because I don't tie my pride of my heritage to a single figure.
---- Rolling bones, this is getting silly now. Our constitution is not perfect, nor is our country. But I dare say that you still fair better here than ANY other country in the world. If you don't think so, then go try and get a taste of another country and see. We have come a long way baby, but admittedly have a long journey still ahead of us to make a "more" perfect union.
I don't know if you are aware of our history (since you are part Italian), but although maybe not to the degree that blacks were, did you know that Italians in this country faced HUGE prejudice. Do you know how many times Italians were lynched in this country just like blacks were? Do you even know that nearly ALL newspapers and periodicals across the country at one times referred to Italians as "non-white" and as "worse than blacks"? The New York Times, etc.and other major periodicals.
In fact we were considered "black", and "worse than the negro" which was actual phrases repeatedly written in major daily's. We had NO rights. For many years in fact.
So don't blame Columbus, or any other Italian for slavery or any other atrocities committed to Blacks, Jews, Chinese, Spanish, etc.... because the Italian people (your Italian people) stood in the front of the line for kicks in the ass, and a rope around their necks! - And FYI, my Italian identify is not solely tied to Columbus but a whole host of Italians and our history dating back to antiquity. Columbus is but one such name I am proud of. As far as "savage" ? Lol.... you've been brainwashed by all this current "political correctness" thats so popular nowadays. I think (I can just feel) that I'm a bit older than you. And I come from a different mindset and viewpoint. Your views are fine and you are entitled to them as I said to BF. They're just not mine.
I know I will never change your outlook, its too engrained in you. (I'm not even trying to).
Let's agree to disagree thats all. Ok? At the end of the day "it is what it is" as the man said.
Good night.
Yes I know the history of Anti-Italian discrimination in America, that wasn't excusable or acceptable just like many of Columbus' actions weren't. One doesn't cancel out the other. I also know our Constitution isn't perfect, which is why I found it funny that you credited it with providing rights that wouldn't need providing if it wasn't for colonization in the first place. It's interesting to me that you think I'm brainwashed by the "political correctness" of today, because these sentiments about Columbus are hardly anything new. The "Christopher" episode of The Sopranos that explores this topic is almost 20 years old at this point, and these are conversations that have been happening for longer than that. Just because it's new to you, doesn't mean it's new to everybody. The guy was a slave trader at the end of the day, was hardly even a competent explorer or "colonial governor", and wasn't as popular as you make it seem he was back in those days. That's why he was removed his post in Hispaniola at one point and forcibly sent back to Spain. I have no illusions about who this man was, but like I said, people tie their own personal self-worth to things like this so when challenged, they can't see it any other way. I see it in the older Italians every year, they take anything except praise for Columbus personally because the holiday is like an unofficial Italian-American day, but we have many figures more worthy of that recognition, whose reputations are not questionable at best.
If there wasnt a Christopher Colombus, many of us wouldnt be in America today. Thats a fact. America would be called something else and wouldnt be the power it is today nor would it be th innovator it is today. Christopher Colombus was extremely brave, intelligent, forward thinking, and took on a huge risk for the betterment of mankind. That should be celebrated. I think part of the problem is some people dont have a national or ethnic hero to celebrate so they attempt to eliminate the accomplishments of others. Think about that.
I agree. These types of conversations go no where. Every race has been done wrong. But some of the things I've read here are disingenuous. I just find it ironic, that all these other races that has "been through similar things as blacks" particularly Asians, Italians/Other European cultures don't (in most cases) relate or empathize (not sympathy which is different) with the blacks. It's interesting. But anyway. The thread should be ended by the Mods.
If there wasnt a Christopher Colombus, many of us wouldnt be in America today. Thats a fact. America would be called something else and wouldnt be the power it is today nor would it be th innovator it is today. Christopher Colombus was extremely brave, intelligent, forward thinking, and took on a huge risk for the betterment of mankind. That should be celebrated. I think part of the problem is some people dont have a national or ethnic hero to celebrate so they attempt to eliminate the accomplishments of others. Think about that.
You know Columbus never actually set foot in what is now the USA, right?
I agree. These types of conversations go no where. Every race has been done wrong. But some of the things I've read here are disingenuous. I just find it ironic, that all these other races that has "been through similar things as blacks" particularly Asians, Italians/Other European cultures don't (in most cases) relate or empathize (not sympathy which is different) with the blacks. It's interesting. But anyway. The thread should be ended by the Mods.
I do have sympothy for the blacks, particularly black children since the majority of black children are born out of wedlock and have no fathers. Who is to blame, the missing in action fathers or the mothers who dont care about bringing a child into an environment with stability? There are big time issues with the black culture that seem to be accepted and it shouldnt be. I see a lot of immigrants from india for example who come to this country with no money and without speaking our language but yet their children excel and dont get involved with violent crime and irrespinsible thug culture. You know why? Strong family values. Children dont need wealth, they need love and stability. You dont get the stability part from a 19 or 20 year old black girl. You slash the out of wedlock birth rate in the black community by 50%, the problems such as violence and incarceration go down by 50%. The out of wedlock birth rate in the black community is almost 75%, thats absolutely ridiculous and there is no excuse for that in the year 2020.
I agree. These types of conversations go no where. Every race has been done wrong. But some of the things I've read here are disingenuous. I just find it ironic, that all these other races that has "been through similar things as blacks" particularly Asians, Italians/Other European cultures don't (in most cases) relate or empathize (not sympathy which is different) with the blacks. It's interesting. But anyway. The thread should be ended by the Mods.
I for one do empathize with them. very much. But thats for another conversation.
@Lenox See this guy gonna draw me into the mudslinging..... I leave it with what One of our great fictional mob boss once said "WHY DON'T YOU STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW AND LEAVE YOUR OPINIONS, WHEREVER THE FUCK....."
I agree. These types of conversations go no where. Every race has been done wrong. But some of the things I've read here are disingenuous. I just find it ironic, that all these other races that has "been through similar things as blacks" particularly Asians, Italians/Other European cultures don't (in most cases) relate or empathize (not sympathy which is different) with the blacks. It's interesting. But anyway. The thread should be ended by the Mods.
I do have sympothy for the blacks, particularly black children since the majority of black children are born out of wedlock and have no fathers. Who is to blame, the missing in action fathers or the mothers who dont care about bringing a child into an environment with stability? There are big time issues with the black culture that seem to be accepted and it shouldnt be. I see a lot of immigrants from india for example who come to this country with no money and without speaking our language but yet their children excel and dont get involved with violent crime and irrespinsible thug culture. You know why? Strong family values. Children dont need wealth, they need love and stability. You dont get the stability part from a 19 or 20 year old black girl. You slash the out of wedlock birth rate in the black community by 50%, the problems such as violence and incarceration go down by 50%. The out of wedlock birth rate in the black community is almost 75%, thats absolutely ridiculous and there is no excuse for that in the year 2020.
Right on cue without missing a beat. Fergie , Belmont, Aces , & blueracing347 must be close friends of yours .
Here we go. BF is instigating. There are many problems existing this very moment that need fixingb within low income communities. Tearing down statues, rioting, and getting rid of recognized days of people from the past will not solve those problems. Blazing others for your misfortune is weak. Then again, if that's the kind of environment you were raised in, you might not know any better. Good luck, and maybe one day we'll get to celebrate a Tupac/Biggie Day. But, be careful what you wish for. "Mo MONEY, MO PROBLEMS" Notorious B.I.G.
Before we close this up, you mean to tell me Colombus statues should be torn down because he killed some indians in the 1400’s despite discovering the new world and creating great opportunites for mankind ? But its acceptable to leave a statue of Kobe Bryant who raped someone in 2003 ???? That makes absolutely no sense !!!! Colombus was a visionary and discovered the new world which took a tremendous amount of courage. Kobe Bryant bounced a ball.
Before we close this up, you mean to tell me Colombus statues should be torn down because he killed some indians in the 1400’s despite discovering the new world and creating great opportunites for mankind ? But its acceptable to leave a statue of Kobe Bryant who raped someone in 2003 ???? That makes absolutely no sense !!!! Colombus was a visionary and discovered the new world which took a tremendous amount of courage. Kobe Bryant bounced a ball.
Cristoforo didn't discover a damn thing. How could you discover something that had already been traveled too? Another Italian Amerigo Vespucci, voyaged here before him, and the vikings before that and the moors before that. You're gleefully embarrassing yourself with contemp and prejudice. So I'll say it again "WHY DON'T YOU STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW AND LEAVE YOUR OPINIONS WHEREVER THE FUCK"
Im sorry but i totally disagree with you. Obviously Colombus was a great man. You try sailing across the ocean in the 1400’s.. that took tremendous courage and he also discovered the new world and changed the way food was distributed and grown. He helped reduce world hunger. Kobe Bryant raped a girl and bounced a ball, yet no one tried to tear his statue down.
Here we go. BF is instigating. There are many problems existing this very moment that need fixingb within low income communities. Tearing down statues, rioting, and getting rid of recognized days of people from the past will not solve those problems. Blazing others for your misfortune is weak. Then again, if that's the kind of environment you were raised in, you might not know any better. Good luck, and maybe one day we'll get to celebrate a Tupac/Biggie Day. But, be careful what you wish for. "Mo MONEY, MO PROBLEMS" Notorious B.I.G.
Colombo didn't commit any atrocities personally. He sailed over. Looked around. Sailed back. Brought more Spanish with him. They imprisoned him. Took him back and he never came over again. Put blame where it is due. It's an insult to the man's legacy to lie about him. And a slap in the face to Italians to wrongfully accuse him of something. Nothing new to us but we have to speak up. Read some books. Look at the true history. Natives were bulldozed. But not by Italians or Columbus.
It's funny they want to tear statues down and erase history. You see anyone burning money or refuse to accept US currency? They'll tear down an Andrew Jackson statue but you don't see them rip up one of their $20 bills.
when i was a boy 8-9 yrs old we were taught in school that christopher columbus discovered american, he didn't. but he was a very brave man sailing from italy across the sea, leave him be, it was 1492 when he sailed, he and the three ships were heroic.
Bonnie, it's a relative term. If me and you walk by a gold mine on our way to school everyday for years but one day I get sick and you find it, you discovered a gold mine. It's a play on words basically. People need to broaden their horizons. Of course other people lived there and traveled there. But Columbus the Spanish, Portuguese and a few nobles in Italy saw the potential. Whomever mentioned the idea of the Romans and Greeks hit the nail on the head. With all that is going on in the world, people should focus on what really matters. It's like the senator from Hawaii yesterday getting pissed off about the judge saying sexual preference. The world is burning and that's her focus. Not to mention Biden said the same thing a few weeks ago and that wasn't mentioned then. Deniro in casino is poiniot. They have a pass and think their pass is better than others.
Colombo didn't commit any atrocities personally. He sailed over. Looked around. Sailed back. Brought more Spanish with him. They imprisoned him. Took him back and he never came over again. Put blame where it is due. It's an insult to the man's legacy to lie about him. And a slap in the face to Italians to wrongfully accuse him of something. Nothing new to us but we have to speak up. Read some books. Look at the true history. Natives were bulldozed. But not by Italians or Columbus.
Have you looked at the history yourself? Columbus has been accused of plenty of atrocities, a lot of which were found out through his own men's journals. Him and his men routinely cut hands off people, raped women, killed people, etc. Thousands were killed while he was Colonial Governor of Hispaniola, and thousands more fled and killed themselves to avoid subjugation by Columbus' men. Where are you getting that he never did any of this? He also did return to Hispaniola after he got out of jail but was denied port so it wasn't for lack of trying.
It's interesting to me how most of the posters in here that are so adamant that Columbus was the greatest guy around barely know the history at all.
I know plenty about the history of my ancestors. Consider your sources. I'd be interested in reading those journals. Can you link to them? I don't believe they were his men as you call them. He was just the tour guide. Do you blame a tour guide for the bad things his passengers did. Like if I beat you up on a septa bus here in Philly is it the drivers fault. Or if the driver drops me off at the next stop and I cut your mom's hands off do you assassinate me and the bus driver? You know for a fact Columbus was raping women. Idk. If I was one of his passengers and wanted to make sure a safe return back to Europe I wouldn't let him off the boat. What if he died and you couldn't get back. Ever think of things along those lines? Do you really believe Columbus was in charge of everyone or just a captain?
I know plenty about the history of my ancestors. Consider your sources. I'd be interested in reading those journals. Can you link to them? I don't believe they were his men as you call them. He was just the tour guide. Do you blame a tour guide for the bad things his passengers did. Like if I beat you up on a septa bus here in Philly is it the drivers fault. Or if the driver drops me off at the next stop and I cut your mom's hands off do you assassinate me and the bus driver? You know for a fact Columbus was raping women. Idk. If I was one of his passengers and wanted to make sure a safe return back to Europe I wouldn't let him off the boat. What if he died and you couldn't get back. Ever think of things along those lines? Do you really believe Columbus was in charge of everyone or just a captain?
No offense but I suggest you do more research yourself, because for someone who claims to know plenty about this history your analogy holds absolutely no water. Columbus was not just a captain, he was the "Colonial Governor" of Hispaniola. He was literally THE man in charge on the island while rape, murder, slavery and starvation was commonplace for the Tainos that lived there. That's nothing like a bus driver just going stop to stop. You can still be proud of your heritage while recognizing Columbus participated in genocide. Hell, if your ancestors are Southern Italian like mine, or from anywhere else besides Genoa, Columbus might not even consider you his ancestor in the first place since he was around loooong before the unification of Italy.
And if Biden is president he will be I charge. Think about it. Do you really think the Spanish Portuguese and nobles would let Columbus have all the power?
And to quite honest, Haiti is a mess today. The DR isn't much better although they are more accomdating to visitors. It's like Africa. The areas Italy controlled prior to ww2 in my opinion would be in better shape today if they still owned them.
And if Biden is president he will be I charge. Think about it. Do you really think the Spanish Portuguese and nobles would let Columbus have all the power?
Lmao this is comparing apples to bowling balls. You are talking about a nation of hundreds of millions, with hundreds of years of history, a constitutions that's been amended many times, along with independent states each with their own government, opposed to a small island where power was acquired through brute force and the original inhabitants were immediately subjugated to slavery.
Also, yes, they gave Columbus that much power. It wasn't like they could replace him immediately if they were dissatisfied although they did remove him eventually. Did you know Columbus was in with the Portuguese nobles through marriage? His wife was a noble. All of this information is available to you if you cared to look beyond the surface and get over your own feelings.
And to quite honest, Haiti is a mess today. The DR isn't much better although they are more accomdating to visitors. It's like Africa. The areas Italy controlled prior to ww2 in my opinion would be in better shape today if they still owned them.
Haiti (or DR) was never an Italian colony. Haiti became a French colony in 1625 while the DR remained a Spanish colony into the 1900s I think. You should read into the External Debt of Haiti, it was basically the French shaking them down after they gained their independence. Fascinating and fucked up, like most of history I guess.
I know about Haiti and DR. My point was that they are some fucked up places with extreme poverty and lack of resources with a corrupt government and that if they were still under supervision of foreign government they might be in better shape. The same way other conquered places in the past were better off then they are now. To say Columbus and explorers did all this bad stuff is to diminish the great things that came out of the Americas. For instance Philadelphia takes it's trash on barges to Haiti waters and dumps it. Do you think the French would allow that today. Probably not.
Italy colonized Somalia. Somalia isn't a place that people want to live. If Italy still had an interest it probably would be better off. Do you think if the outfit owned mgm that a guy could bring in suitcases full of guns and shoot people from the building? Sometimes other people should be in charge even though they aren't perfect. Consider the alternative.
I know about Haiti and DR. My point was that they are some fucked up places with extreme poverty and lack of resources with a corrupt government and that if they were still under supervision of foreign government they might be in better shape. The same way other conquered places in the past were better off then they are now. To say Columbus and explorers did all this bad stuff is to diminish the great things that came out of the Americas. For instance Philadelphia takes it's trash on barges to Haiti waters and dumps it. Do you think the French would allow that today. Probably not.
That bit about the trash is interesting. Is that an ongoing practice? I googled it and all I could find was one instance of this happening. An unauthorized dumping in the 1980's, and miraculously it seems like a lot of it actually made it back to Pennsylvania.
If it's not Haiti it's somewhere else. But do you get my point? Sure Columbus and the Spanish weren't perfect but consider the alternative. I guess the Taino were saints that never did anything to other people. Like native Americans didn't go to war with each other. Conquer other tribes.
Colombus was around in the 1400’s !!! People were violent and primitive, it was 200 years BEFORE the salem witch trials for gods sakes. What about all the savage violence that goes on in the Liberal Democratic Cities today !
Wow
. Before you there was others ( banned) that went down the same lane of dialogue. So here goes the usual talking points: 
. 
