A deep question that always intrigued me (dialect)

Growing up with a mother that was half Italian (her father from Rome) and half Thai....I had to learn or tried to learn
2 non English languages growing up.....
Now here's my question.

When the Italians and Sicilians immigrated to the US in the early 1900s, I believe they expected their children to learn
That language with Italian/Sicilian.

But as time went on the language wasn't being passed on in the household and thus you had Italian Americans
With the last name but yet didn't know how to speak
Italian.

Was there ever a time that it was required for Italian / Sicilian American boss to know how to speak that language by the commission ?

I know it's a dumb question.
But I recall a show that had Tony Spilotro on it and he said
He couldnt understand Italian.
It gave me reason to pause and think

I don't think their has been.too many mafia bosses in the last few decades that could speak Italian

Of course Gambino and Bonnano could. Luciano.
Marcello. Frank Milano. But those guys are old school.

Did Big Paul or GottI know Italian ?
How about Persico? Joey Merlino?
Of course Stanfa knew it.

How do you guys feel about the language not being passed on to the children of immigrants?

It’s basically assimilation, as generations go by the heritage and language of the migrants is less and less involved in the everyday life. The foods, and some phrases stay but you can’t expect a 3-4th generation immigrant to speak the language of the family origin fluently. You basically become “Americanized”, it happens to every groups of migrants.

It all starts at home in my opinion. Kids parents especially 1st generation parents speak at home and the kids learn that language first.


All the old timers you posted spoke Italian as the generations went on english was their first language than everything else second if that

My uncle went to Canada in the 1970s and his sons cant speak italian.
I think that was a fase in the american mafia from the beginning to 1960s which all the boss was born in italy and can speak the old leanguage but after that with bosses born in the US the things changed.
The first american born boss was Joe Colombo and for the others:Gotti cant point the italy on a map and for the soldiers some of them mocked the old mangiaspaghetti and this is a motive why the familis had/have a zip faction.
And after all the important thing is to made money not declaim poems.

Ence ne costa lacreme st'America
a nuje Napulitane.
Pe' nuje ca ce chiagnimmo 'o cielo 'e Napule,
comm'è amaro stu ppane.

Raymond Patriarca Sr beat Joe Colombo by a decade. He is the only earliest known mafia boss born in the United States who was the official boss of a family. There are many who was born in Italy or Sicily but came over as an infant or child and raised in America.

I know of some information on original people from Sicily/Calabria etc, that immigrated to Canada and USA early 1900’s. In some instances, the parents would barely learn any English, and it was expected that the children would learn English.

Some I know of could also speak Italian, others forgot overtime. I have heard story about the kids attending Italian school 1930’s, and having to give the Facist salute in class. They said once WW2 started that teacher got out of town, before he could be arrested lol.

At one point the connection to Italy from wherever was as strong as you could get, with time and newer generations it appears to have weakened.

I figured knowing another language could be an advantage against LE.

I think Italy used to have different dialects for each region.Nowadays everyone in Italy learns the same language, so an American who learned Italian from their grandparents doesn't really speak the language as they do now in Italy. I had elderly relatives who knew Italian. When they visited Italy in the 70s and 80s they said it was as if they were speaking a different language from the younger people who grew up there.

Same!

I have asked about this a few times, lots of these guys call themselves Italian, they are not Italian just Americans with an Italian surname!

Not in this days,the feds have agent that spoker italian against the mob and spanish against the cartels.
Before Petrosino in early 1900s create the Italian Branch on ny police the cops was only was or iris and doesnt understand what this small people with olive skin say.

Al Capone was the first boss born in US in NY in 1899.

Not true it’s still like that, although in schools they speak the proper Italian

That’s what I have come to understand as well. I think in Sicily there are over 28 different dialects. I think the most common ‘Italian’ is the one used by the Holy Sea. Everyone communicates in that ‘Italian’ via the church all over the world. Can probably learn it on The Rosetta Stone or something comparable.

One story I have been told by the person who witnessed this is that on Railway Street in Hamilton early 1930’s. A maybe 10 year old John Papalia and one of his brothers were instructed by their father mid day to beat a patron that just finished drinking in the second of two house the Papalia owned,this house was not for living but serve bootleg liquor. The guy was drunk and wouldn’t get off the street, Tony Pops was yelling ‘Mieana’ don’t know if it’s spelt right, means hit him. The person that told me was a child as well when they observed this. They stated that the way the Papalia said hit them was different then the way Sicilians/Southern Italians said it on the street.

My cousin was friend with a woman in South Dakota that was from Railway street, last name might be Speziale or Bordinaro, not sure. I think the Bordinaro was Rocco Perri Crew, and his son became a lawyer for the family.

Sicilians go as far as having a different dialect in each providence tho like people from Palermo speak slightly different than people from Catania or people from argregento speak different than people from Messina and so on and so forth but it’s all understood within the whole island just slight different pronunciation. But when it comes to napolitano and Sicilian it’s like a complete different language

Neat, thanks for confirming. I think the common way to say finish in Italian, is finito or finisce, well in the Sicilian dialect of the people I spoke with it is finisila or something close. Thanks again

Interesting point is if you watch the footage of Salvatore Riina speaking during Maxi Trial, he speaks what appears to be basic Italian.

I believe he speak his dialect of Sicilian, and basic Italian (used in the Church).

Here a short clip

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PW8FOHmP9G8

There is a debate in Italy about whether Neapolitan is an Italian dialect or an independent language. The differences with Italian are so great that a North Italian will have a hard time understanding Neapolitan.
Neapolitan is not only spoken in and around Naples, but also in much of the rest of southern Italy, in particular Campania , Basilicata and northern Calabria .

That’s correct but also depending on how it’s used in a sentence

I wasn’t completely sure, it was a while ago. Couldn’t fully remember, also didn’t know about Naples that interesting stuff .

Same with Leggio in footage of him as well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zjc57OMcxWE

The children of Sicilian immigrants, like those of other immigrant nationalities,picked up their parents' native language first at home. But they soon learned English in school, and most Sicilian and other immigrant parents encouraged their children to learn and use English in order to succeed in America. Some immigrant families actually discouraged their children from speaking the native language at home to encourage them to assimilate and become "real Americans."

Not true,more kids continue to speak dialect and when they speak italian the other people can hear the difference.
My parents wanted that I learn to well speak italian because when you go to a speak for a job a proper leanguage is important.
But that was useless,in my small town the only people that speak italian are the immigrants.