How powerful was Victor Orena as Acting Boss?

Vic Orena is rarely talked about on these boards. I was wondering; How powerful was he as Acting Boss?? It's said that Carmine gave him power that is unheard of in the Acting Boss role. I have several questions about Orena.

1st: Was there a legitimate way of Orena taking the family from Carmine Persico?? Did the commission back either of them?? I think Gotti was friends with Orena and backing him at one point to take the control of the family.

2nd: I saw a chart a few years ago of the Orena faction; The faction was huge........ How could they have not won against the Persico faction? Orena had the power of a boss; and he was out of prison..

3rd: If Orena did take control of the family; Who most likely would have been in his administration?

Would love to hear some insight!

Here stuff I do know like you said Carmine trusted him and gave him the family but Allie was always a factor.

Vic was well liked and mingled well and he was the nice boss ! because Carmine was the real boss .

Gotti knew that if Carmine ever hit the street he would of killed him .

Whenever you have a well liked modern skipper given a family ( Orena) you are going to have all the guys that he hung with in his camp and letting guys do shit the real boss would not , or take less money , promised moving guys up you will have guys following.

Most of the old guys were gone so Vick had a shit load of guys his age and guys he grew up with .

All the guys in the family knew if Carmine won that they would be ruled by Persico’s forever and in that life they want the top spots to move so they move up.


If not for the real bosses of the other families Carmine would of got run over and the Feds helped a shit load .

The Commission didnt riunite after the trial give 100 age to each boss;Orena could have Gotti but Gigante will never support Orena and with him Amuso and Rastell was in jail;
Orena lost the war because Scarpa sr tipped the Vecchio and the FBI because he was dying and wanted the dead of Orena.
Some say that Scarpa sr used DeVecchio but I think that was only bad lucky for Orena to had the fbi mole against him.

@Serpiente
Where did the Gotti and Persico hate come from? I know Gotti called Persico a rat during the commission trial; I believe. Was there a long standing disagreement between the two way before then; Also you say Orena was a nice boss; Could you elaborate?

Also who was part of the "Orena Camp"? Who did the Aloi brothers support?

@Furio
I agree that Scarpa put away Orena for life...

Why wouldn't Gigante have supported the revolt? Is it because of the old saying "The Boss is the Boss"?

Gigante (even if he tried to kill his boss) was a traditional boss,for this he tried to kill Gotti and for the same reason wont support Orena;
Gotti called Persico rat because in the commission trial he (persico) admit the existence of Cosa Nostra and for Gotti this is a shame;
Zavattoni what would say is that Scarpa sr that get the HIV in the 1986 was a ruthless gangster and even if he was dying decided to fight against Orena and used his status as CI for sabotate the Orena faction (damn in a drug deal Scarpa was shot in his eye but killed the shooter and used
whisky on his wound and driven to the hospital).

Didn't the Commission tell Orena to have Carmine Sessa who was the Colombo Consigliere at the time; To poll all the captains to see who they wanted as Boss?? Sessa must have been a big loyalist to not do this.

I'm not surprised Scarpa wanted to kill Orena even on his deathbed; Scarpa was loyal to Persico. They go back to the days when they had to whack Charles the Sidge LoCircio who was their mentor. Think I spelled the name wrong.

@Serpiente
Why did Gotti think Carmine Persico would have killed him if he ever got out of prison?

No Orena said to Sessa to poll the capos for avoid a war thinking that the capos didnt want another war and maybe if Sessa wouldnt informed Persico the things will go in this manner.
Orena would as an acting boss should meet with all the capos and made himself the question: you want to stay with me or against me?
If all the capos or a huge majority would say yes,I doubt Scarpa would do anything.

I agree; Orena should of had a meeting with the captains; and gave them an ultimatum. I'm pretty sure the majority would have been with him; People were getting sick of the Persico's; even back then.. Going to Sessa was a 50/50 and Orena should have known that. Who was Underboss at the time or Acting should I say?? Gerry Lang was put away at the time but didn't he still hold the title?

Was Sessa ever a Captain? He seemed to have become Consigliere in his early 40's. That's a bit unheard of; Weren't there older capable guys with more experience?

I give a look on blackhand forum. Sessa was made on March 11, 1987 and put under teddy persico sr and in 1988 had his own crew before become Consigliere.Very lucky guy lol.

Here a 3 colombo war factions:


BOSS: Carmine Persico
UNDER: Gennaro Langella

-----------------------------
PERSICO FACTION:
Acting Boss: Joe Tomasello
Acting Underboss: Joe Russo
Consigliere: Carmine Sessa

Crews:
1 Theodore “Uncle Teddy” Persico/53 
-Acting Capo: Thomas Petrizzo/57 (went to Orena side?)
Joseph Baudanza/46
Vincent “Schwartzie” Cascio/52
Ralph Lombardo/60
Frank Melia Jr.
Frank “Beansy” Melli/49
John Orena/35
Theodore “Skinny Teddy” Persico Jr/27 (IP)
John Rosati/46
Anthony “Tony Ski” Scianna/60
Joseph Scimone/78
John S-------/43
Frank “Frankie Collision/Highway” Tormenia

2 Richard “Ritchie Nerves” Fusco/50
Richard “The Jeweler” Capichiano/51
Benjamin “Little Guy/Claw/Benji" Castellazzo/53
James “Jimmy Brown” Clemenza Jr/56
Frank “Dick” Fusco/86 
Salvatore Fusco Jr/26
Salvatore “Sally Buzzo” Fusco Sr/59
Lawrence “Larry” Lampasi/64
Ernest LaPonzina/73
Joseph “Joe Lefty” Sangiorgio/52

3 John Pate/49
Aurelio “Ray” Cagno/50
Rocco Cagno
Peter “Petey Black” Campisi
Robert Pate/42
Salvatore “Sally Pro” Profaci/54 
Paul Lombardino/86
Salvatore "Tutti" Lombardino Jr/59
Alan Quattrache/42
James “Jimmy Ran” Randazzo/54

4 Anthony “Chucky” Russo/37
Vincent “Jimmy Gooch” Febbraro/57
Jerome “Gene Magliocco” D’Agati/70
Joseph Saponaro/56 (D/1991)
Gregory “Greg” Scarpa Jr/39 (IP)
Gregory “Greg/The Grim Reaper” Scarpa Sr/62 (Secretly cooperating)
Paul D’Amico//78
---- Larry Mazza

5 Salvatore Fusco Jr

6 Robert "Bobby Zam" Zambardi/50
- Acting Capo - Michael Sessa
Lawrence “Larry Monk” Micciolo/48
Hank “The Bank” Smurra/52
---- Joey Ambrosino
---- Larry Fiorenza
---- Richie Brady
---- Michael DeMatteo
---- Louie "Ganoli" LNU
---- Carmine Imbriale (later flipped)
---- Michael Bulino
---- Anthony "Bird" Coluccio (murdered 1989)
---- Frankie "Steel" Pontillo
---- Anthony Sayegh.

Soldiers (want to place these guys into crews)
Joe Legrano
Rosario Nastasi
Hank Smurra (killed by Orena faction)
Robert Tarantola
Joseph Monteleone (former Joe Russo crew)
Tommy Gioeli

Associates
Moe Marra
Thomas McLaughlin
Daniel Capalda
Joe Santapoala
Joe Savarese
Larry Sessa
Kevin Granato
Joe Mele
Dean Gargagliano
James Delmasto
Frank Sparaco
Frank Guerra 
Anthony Ferrara


-----------------------------
Orena Faction
Boss: Vic Orena
Under: Joey Scopo
Consig: Vincenzo Aloi

Crews:
1 William “Wild Bill” Cutolo/41
Joseph “Joe Campy” Campanella/31
Joseph Colombo Jr/44 
Vincent “Chickie” DeMartino/35
Joseph “Joe Smash” Gambola/38
Joseph Joe Notch" Iannaci/46
Salvatore “Sammy” Peritore/77 
Alfonso “Peanuts” Serrantonio
James "Jimmy O'Toole" Spitaleri/58
---- Michael Spataro
---- Frank Ianacci

2 Pasquale “Patty” Amato/56
Joseph Amato/34
Robert Barbieri/75
Pasquale “Fat Patty” DiMatteo/45
Robert “Bob” D’Onofrio/33
Gioacchino “Jack” Leale/44
Louis “Bo Bo” Malpeso/52
Rosario “Black Sam” Nastasi/78
---- Christopher Liberatore
---- Tommy Cappa
---- Anthony Liberatore
---- Chris Barrett

3 Ralph Lombardo

4 Thomas Petrizzo (former Persico crew acting capo?)

5 Nicholas “Nicky Black” Grancio/63
Alphonse “Funzi” D’Ambrosio/66
Joseph “Joe Black” Gorgone/65
Joseph “Joe Legs” Legrano/48
Anthony “Butch” Maltese/71
Rocco “Rocky” Miraglia/64
Ralph “Ralphie Patches” Piccirillo/51

6 Joey Amato

7 Charles Panarella
Anthony “Big Tony" Peraino/76

8 Sal Profaci

9 Joe Ianacci

10 Dominick Montemarano

11 Pasquale DiMatteo

12 Benny Aloi
Salvatore “Sally Bread” Cambria/39
Pasquale “Fat Patty” Catalano/59
Dennis "Fat/Little/The Beard" DeLucia/49 (UI)
Dennis Guzzardo/48 (Secretly cooperating)
Benjamin “Benny Sidge” LoCicero/57
Frank “Ghandi/Cisco” LoCicero/63
Charles Lombardo/52
Ralph Scopo Jr/42

13 Acting Capo of Russo crew breakaway: Sal Micciotta (former Joe Russo crew)
---- Bobby Gallagher

Soldiers:
Joel Caccace
Alphonse D'Ambrosio
Larry Lampesi
John R------
John Minerva (killed in 1992 for switching sides by Joe Monteleone, Tommy Gioeli, and another member of Teddy Persico's crew. )
----Michael Imbergamo (Minerva bodyguard, killed with him)

Associates:
Joseph "Chubby" Audino
Joe Tolino
Dom Dionasio
Frank Campanella
Craig Marino
Vincent Fusaro


---------------------------
Not sure what side they fell on:
Soldiers: (Crews Unknown)
Alan Quattrache
Anthony "Abbie Shots/Shatz”" Abbatemarco/68 (Former UnderBoss) (Shelved)
Sebastian Aloi Jr/48 (probably with the Aloi Crew)
Michael Bolino/49 
Dominic Bretti/56 (IP)
Joel “Joe Waverly” Cacace/49 (Probably with Fusco or Pannarella)
Anthony Colombo/45 
James “Jimmy Brown” Clemenza Sr/79 (Former Capo)
John “Jackie” DeRoss/53 (IP)
Dominico “Danny” Esposito/65
Robert “Bobby” Falvo/65
Thomas “Tom Mix/Mr. T” Farese/47
John “Sonny” Franzese/71 (IP) (Former Capo)
Joseph “Joe Lane” Gentile (Either Orena or Teddy Persico)
Vincent “Vinny Sicilian” Gugliaro/62 (Former Capo)
Anthony “Tony Black” Induisi/42 (IP) (Former Capo)
Charles “Charlie Fish” Miceli/30
Vincenzo Miceli/57
Dominick “Donnie Shacks” Montemarano/52 (IP) (Former Capo)
Frank “Frankie the Sheik” Mussachio/75
Victor Orena Jr/37 (Either Orena or Teddy Persico)
Alphonse “Little Allie Boy” Persico Jr/36 (IP) (Former Capo)
Daniel “Danny/The General” Persico/28
Vincent "Vinny Unions/Buffalo/Three Fingers" Ricciardo/45
Philip “Chubby” Rossillo/48 (IP)
Andrew “Andy Mush” Russo/56 (IP) (Former Capo)
John Saponaro/53
Michael Savino/82 (D/1991)
Ralph Scopo Sr/62 (IP)
Anthony “Scappy” Scarpati/57 (IP) (Former Capo)
George Tropiano/75 (likely Chucky Russo) (D/1991)
Joseph "Joe Yack" Yacovelli/62 (Former Consigliere)


Total Confirmed Members: 137 Members
-Some of the guy's made in the 1991 ceremonies could have replaced some of the guy's who died in 1991. 

Orena and Casso were good friends.

If this was the case; Why didn't Casso/Amuso support Vic Orena as boss?? J. Gotti supported Orena; but no-one else gave support. Phil Rastelli was in jail. Vincent Gigante was not a fan; and was old-school; He wasn't going to support Vic Orena after what John Gotti did to Castellano.

Amuso and Casso wanted to absorb the Colombo family during the war so they could position the Lucheses as a larger and more powerful family. Gotti supported Orena because he felt he could control him, thus putting himself in a more powerful position. Gigante and Massino supported Persico because he was the boss (though the Gambinos wanted Massino to come to their side).

I think Sessa's reason for running to Carmine to tell him about Orena's plans for a coup was more self serving than out of loyalty to Persico. Sessa probably figured his position and power in the family will increase under Persico if he gets Orena whacked. Sessa probably also calculated that his future looked dim if Orena became official boss and Orena would probably have him removed as consigliere somewhere down the line and replaced with a more qualified consigliere.

As acting boss it is not protocol for Orena to poll the capo's himself, that is the job for the consigliere. Like when Gotti become boss, it was Joseph Gallo who polled the capo's for Gotti. Gravano nominated Gotti and Gallo polled the capo's.

How Carmine Sessa became Consigliere in his early 40's is mind boggling. He didn't have a long tenure as captain either.

Think he became a captain in the late 80's. He had a brother Mike Sessa..

Read C. Sessa was close with Gregory Scarpa after he got his medical diagnosis.

. Plus Sessa only got made in 1987. I think March 1987 he got made or around there. So He rose very fast

In his book, Larry Mazza seems to imply Orena only gave Sessa the consigliere role so he could get him to poll the captains to see if Orena should take over as official boss. If it didn't work out he could blame Sessa and kill him like he did Jimmy Angelina.

Long story short; Vic Orena should have been the Official Boss... He was out on the streets; and had support from 2 of the other families. Most of the family were Orena loyalists.

I read that even before the Colombo wars started; Orena was pissing off several of Persico's guys. He was trying to get some Queen guys inducted; He made his sons and indicted alot of NJ guys. He was close with NJ. Sal Profaci in particular.

How Orena lost the war is still confusing; He had a superior numbers advantage over the Persico faction. He was out on the streets; There was some incredible mishaps on their end... Lin Delvecchio the (FBI handler) I think caused the Orena faction to lose.... Him and Scarpa. I think Orena would have been boss if it wasn't for those two.

Vic Orena was literally fighting Persico/Scarpa and the FBI. If Scarpa was jailed earlier; Orena wins the war. Family would be much better today..

Anyone know more about the NJ faction of the Colombo's. Think it was ran by Sal Profaci and Thomas Petrizzo a Colombo Captain did business there.

Carmine Sessa was a weak leader in the Persico faction. He was more of a proxy role as the war went on. I don't see him lasting long in the Consigliere role. If Orena won the war; Think Bendetto Aloi or Vincenzo Aloi would have taken it over officially. They were elder statesmen and respected at that point.

Known Youtuber and former jewel thief Larry Lawton has told a story a few times
about doing time at Atlanta federal pen with Orena. Larry was a Gambino associate
on the streets and he suitcased a message in his hind parts to Orena from someone
at another prison. He said Orena took care of him and gave him a care package
of different commisary items to make his stay easier.

This may be a bit overboard; but is it possible that Victor Orena was one of the most powerful ''Acting Bosses'' of all time??

The guy had enough firepower and guys loyal to him to remove Persico as ''Official Boss''

He just made some ******* decisions.... He also had Greg Scarpa; and the FBI against him.

He was acting boss of the Colombo family which is basically a glorified street gang.

t
I would personally pick Gerry Catena as the acting for Vito Genovese, a lot of people think that he actually became the official boss after Genovese died until sometime in the early 70s when he was in jail himself.

On the subject of powerful acting bosses:

After Anastasia was killed Carlo Gambino was installed as acting boss for a while (because he was consigliere and could hold the family together) before being confirmed as official.

In the Luchese family in the 1970s, Andimo Pappadio was briefly acting boss while Carmine Tramunti was incarcerated. Pappadio would consult with the captains while making decisions but not with Tramunti. Once a decision was made, Tramunti would be informed of it but he had no say in the matter.

Carmine Galante was an acting boss who tried to appoint himself as the official boss. There were some in the family who regarded him as official (Marangello, Sabella...) but obviously the Rastelli loyalists won out.

Joseph Merlino became acting boss of the Philadelphia family in 1998 when official boss Ralph Natale was arrested, and he was completely running the show (and had been behind-the-scenes throughout Natale's time on the street anyway). Then when Merlino got locked up his acting boss Joseph Ligambi was confused by many to be the official boss and had the ability to turn down guys Merlino proposed to be made, saying that he didn't know them well enough and Merlino could make them himself when he got out.

Vincent Basciano made himself acting boss and was making captains without going to Massino for permission. Then when Basciano was arrested he appointed Michael Mancuso as acting boss and Anthony Rabito as acting consigliere (though part of why he got away with this was due to the fact that Massino was already secretly cooperating and was no longer fully invested in running the family).

In the 2000s, Alphonse Persico retained the title of acting boss despite his incarceration. His father had the official title but it was Alphonse who was in charge of the family and could appoing street bosses like Ralph DeLeo.

Domenico Cefalu was elevated to acting boss of the Gambino family after the January 2011 arrest of consigliere and ruling panel member Bartolomeo Vernace. Though Peter Gotti was (and possibly still is) the official Gambino boss he had no say over how the family was run and final say ended with Cefalu.

Joseph Cammarano Jr was another powerful Bonanno acting boss. Represented a faction rival to the then-incarcerated official boss Michael Mancuso. In 2017 he held a vote of the captains and was elected official boss. Though, obviously now, Cammarano was never recognised elsewhere as the official boss and that title remains with Mancuso. Cammarano, consigliere John Zancocchio and others were shelved when Mancuso was released.

I wonder if Basciano had an inkling Massino was a rat, or was too stupid to figure it out.

Just a few of my thoughts, I find it completely hilarious whenever anyone posts comments about the Columbos being anything but a historically strong family. The comments defy logic, and I assume must be made due to a dislike for the family. It’s been around 100 years, survived three civil wars, long term informers and yet still exists. Not to mention they have some of the longest serving most violent and money making members in the history of the mob. There’s more to write but I don’t want spend all day arguing about them. I just find it funny, kinda like when all the experts proclaimed buffalo non existent any longer, or the jersey shore a hotbed.

Second, I’d say fat tony Salerno was a pretty powerful acting boss and went away for 100 years as one.

If Basciano suspected Massino was a rat he would still be stupid because he talked to him about murders while Massino was wired up

@Majicrat

I agree. Some people do underestimate the Colombo's because of the internal feuding and wars. They've been around a very very long time and are around today;

There a little more then just a "Glorified Street Gang"


I should have put a little more thought in my last post; I agree. Fat Tony Salerno probably was one/if not the most powerful Acting Boss of a major NYC crime Family. Guy was loaded and given alot of autonomy.

The Colombo's will induct anyone with a pulse. Ralph DeLeo was just a drug dealer from Arkansas and shouldn't have even been made because he was also a rat, but instead he gets his button and later is made Colombo street boss.

Thomas Gioeli was basically a second rate robber who holds up fur shops, but the Colombo's decided he was good enough to make him their street boss.

Their choice of street bosses is a clear indication they don't have much talent in their ranks.

I agree with you alot on that. We don't agree much from recent posts; but you're right. The Colombo leadership has been crap for decades. It's a shame that no-one could challenge Persico for the boss spot once Joe Colombo got shot. There wer some vicious crews out there during that time; and some capable old timers...

Gennaro Langella is another Underboss/Streetboss who should have never had the spot.

Too stupid? He was talking to Massino inside of a federal lockup. An official boss had never been an informer before so how could anyone even think Massino would be a rat? Remember when they talked that was after Massino was found guilty but was facing another trial.


Vinny Gorgeous had the makings of a great boss if he could have stayed on the streets.