American mafia - Associates?

Here's one thing I always wondered. You often hear about "associates" in the American mafia. For instance the Genovese family has between 200 and 300 "made" members and about 3000 associates - of course, these numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt. We all know associates are not (yet) made or, due to restrictions, won't ever qualify for getting made. I'm left wondering though; who make up the bulk of these associates?

Are they mostly Italian-American criminals who are not yet made and are out to please the made guys? Local businessmen (or maybe even politicians or members of law enforcement) who may not be gangsters themselves, but that are nonetheless corrupted by the gangsters? Members of the mainland Italian crime groups who got transplanted to the USA to get into business with the Americans? Members of other ethnic mobs, street gangs and biker gangs who associate themselves with a few wiseguys? Assorted crooks who aren't a member of any specific crime group that have no chance of getting made, but who decide to work for the Mafia?

It's probably a bit of everything, but does one of these categories have the upper hand in this?

well i guess a mix of politicians, street thugs, wannabes, local businessmens
as for the numbers of the associates well you can do that :
let's say in NY especially the westside (who are strong, and huge in numbers)
let's say they have 6 associates per made guy.
so for instance if they have 220 made guys (which sounds fair enough) so they have around 900.
of course that was just an example there are cases with members who have around 10 associates and some with 3 it's all depends,
but these is how people who made charts guess the numbers,

An associate can be an italian that can be made or a non italian that pay the mob for protection,a street thug or a biker that made money with he mob ecc at the end I think that a 3 associates for a made man is a most reliable numbers.

Cheers for the replies so far.
I guess it's rather difficult to estimate these things. Let's say if a criminal from another gang associates himself with a certain made guy...he probably has other people in his entourage as well. Do they count as mob associates?
How far does cooperation between a certain criminal and a made man in the mob go before one is regarded as a mob associate? If a wiseguy provided a Dominican drug trafficker with some services a couple of months ago or if some Bloods gang member once did a hit for some mobster...are they regarded as "associates"?

It ain't easy to find out.

There’s a recent news piece about the Gambinos where they said something like... law enforcement estimates some 750 made members and associates, and seemed to refer to the associates as summer “interns”. Cute way of describing them, I guess?

The mob associates I’ve seen in FBI charts etc. were a number of ethnicities, including blacks, so I dunno. It might vary from crime family to family.

Politicians, businessmen and corrupt officials are considered more as connections/connected guys, instead of being part of a crew like an enforcer, street thug or wannabe.. That's why the term associate is open to multiple interpretations..

Yeah true ‏your right

Its a loose term for sure. Personally, whenever i hear the term " associate " being used, i think of someone in the rackets, a crew, under someones flag whos not made. When it comes to politicians, cops, judges, businessmen i refer to " so and so with Mob ties/connections ". But that's just my interpretation.

Yeah, personally, that has always been my interpretation as well. I just don't really know how it's interpreted in the estimations.

The official Mafia term for "associate" means somebody is "on record" with a wiseguy, like Donnie Brasco with Lefty, also the media definitely uses it more loosely. I personally believe that when the FBI uses the term associate, they are referring to guys that are "on record," meaning they work for the mob and are under the mob's protection. I don't think this really applies to bikie gangsters or members of other organized crime units, and I've never seen a bikie referred to as a Mafia associate.
Also, in today's day and age, local politicians and businessmen would make up a very small percentage of the Mafia associates referred to in FBI figures, simply due to the fact that the Mafia's grip on legitimate industries has really loosened over time. I would say the 750 associates in the Gambino Family are "on record" guys. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say a soldier could have six guys under him. Some Italian, some not. Some might be proposed for membership, most not. When we see big, bread-and-butter, street-level busts, the number of associates far outranks the number of made guys.

I've been back on here for a little over a week and I gotta say the level of posters has risen over here.

Cheers for the response. A criminal that directly works "for" the mob is definitely the most plausible explanation for the term 'associate'. I was just curious to how for instance the FBI applies the moniker.

I've read stuff about bikers associating themselves with mobsters - for instance Mark Polchan with Fat Sarno in Chicago - but I wasn't too sure whether they're regarded as direct mob associates that work "for" the mob or as members of other criminal organizations that work "with" the mob.

When they said 750 they included full-fledged members. I guess all ~750 are confirmed suspected of having some involvement in the criminal activities of the family, at the least. As for which ones are and aren’t members, I bet even the FBI doesn’t know at all times. The ones you hear about made some splash in the underworld, and in LE circles. Who can say with a 100% certainty which Italian guy in a lower tier position is and isn’t made? Few people are going to come out and say “I am a member of an organized crime family”. Regardless of what surveillance techniques or informants they have.

The media doesn't just use the term loosely. Mob guys themselves use the term loosely. To them, an associate is anyone who is "with" the family but without a button. Meaning it could be a politician, a corrupt cop, a local businessman or a street guy who is on the record. You are wrong in believing that the guys who are on the record represent the majority of those associates. In fact, they only represent about 15 to 20% of the total number of associates. Most are indeed businessmen and criminals who are not on the record. It's much harder for them to find a real street guy than it is for them to get somebody who manages a nightclub to come under their umbrella. If you were familiar with the dynamics of NY then this wouldn't even be a question in your mind. By the way, you are on point with everything else you said. I hope me and you can bury the hatchet someday .

Me too, Ralphie, no point making enemies.
If the number of "on-record" associates only makes up 15-20% of the associates that the FBI lists, then that would imply there are not very many "on-record" associates. Take the Colombos. The New Jersey State of Organized Crime report in 2004 (http://mafianj.com/sci2004/colombo.shtml) listed the Colombos at 112 members and around 500 associates. I'd wager that the number of "on-record" associates compared to made members (for the Colombos) is at least 3:1, probably more. The Jan. 2011 bust showed far more associates than made members in or around Big Anthony Russo's crew. In the 2010 bust of John Franzese, Sonny was the only "made guy" indicted - all of his goons and henchmen were associates, presumably "on-record." In the March 2010 bust, Theodore Persico Jr. and Tom Petrizzo were the only two made guys in a list of eight defendants, most of which were fulltime mob henchmen. What my point is, I guess, is that it would not surprise me at all if the 112:500 figure for made members vs. associates in the Colombos represents only "on-record" associates. Remember, most active soldiers have at least a couple of on-record guys under them to do the dirty work.

I see now where you're coming from. The FBI tends to only label 'on the record' guys as associates, something you accurately stated. Those are the guys we are most interested in learning about, the guys who are on the street and belong to a crew. What I was pointing to are guys who are considered to be 'with' a certain family, but aren't considered 'on the record' street guys. These guys are mostly business people and people who are in legitimate positions doing the mob's bidding. In 2004, the Bonannos had some 2500 people who fit this category. According to Cicale, Basciano came up with around 3000 people he counted as 'associates'. Now they obviously went with the broad definition of the word and they included street guys on the record (a total of around 500).

Great responses.

I would add if you had to name the top five associates of all time the list would include two Irish and two Jewish guys, the fifth would be up for grabs.

Early FBI files show how close Luciano and Lepke were, in that the files refer to them as the 'Luciano-Buckhalter Mob.' I don't think early non Italian bosses like Shultz, Lepke, Zwillman could be considered associates, imo.

Agree, since induction was not huge in the early stages of American Organizing.

However Lanskey & Siegel were in closer to the idea of being only associated since Lucky became a force and corner stone to the more Organized Italian groups.

I believe the number of associates averages out to about 1 for each made member or less. If we count friends, or people who they deal with one or 2 times, then the number can grow to as high a number as people choose to make it. I believe there are members with 3 or 4 ascots on record, and members who have none on record with them. Figure in the inactive members also.

The bonannos have 500 associates ?

@Ralphie, I now see where you're coming from as well. 100% agreed that associates can include people that are "with" wiseguys, like businessmen or contractors under the mob's control.

They have anywhere between 300 and 500 guys who are 'on the record'. The feds tend to inflate these numbers. A good guess would be around 400. Nicky mentioned 750 guys on record with the Gambinos and he's probably not too far off. As stated earlier, the vast majority of those guys never get made.

Take for example Spero and the Bath av crew. 7 or 8 guys that are all associates under him. Only one ended up made I believe.

so from all of those 400 maybe only 180 - 200 are italian right ?

Very hard to say, especially in this day and age. The Staten Island crews and some of the Jersey crews are almost all 90% Italian. You start seeing more diversity in Queens and the Bronx. There are certainly crews in those areas where the Italians are a minority. The life has changed a lot over the years.

Thanks for the insightful responses!

So if that's true then the all mob (not only the bonanno's) are really making a come back since they lose their power in the late 80s/early 90s
Like i've been saying for a long time !

This is one of the ones I was thinking about. The bottom row of this chart illustrates the diversity of mob associates.

So if that's true then the all mob (not only the bonanno's) are really making a come back since they lose their power in the late 80s/early 90s
Like i've been saying for a long time ! [/quote]

It's no secret the mob has been recovering, Meyer. The FBI now only has two New York crews fighting the Five Families. The Jan. 2011 "Mafia Takedown Day" was almost a grand finale for the feds because a few months after that was when they first dismantled the separate crews for each of the Five Families and merged the Colombos with the Bonannos once more, as well as reducing the amount of agents across the board to only 45. Two years later, that number plummeted to 25 and the Genovese squad was merged with the Bonanno/Colombo squad and the Gambino squad was merged with the Luccheses. Here's a New York Post article about the situation:
https://nypost.com/2013/06/20/feds-only-have-2-squads-left-to-combat-city-mafia-families/

So in 20 years from now we might see a new and improve LCN

Because the feds turned their attention to counter terrorism after 9/11? I thought it was kinda funny how the Sopranos touched on this.

There was a bit of a delay between when the Mafia busts really started to die down, but yes 9/11 seems to be when it slowed. However Mafia busts have domino effects that last for decades which is why the busts didn’t simply tail off straight after 9/11.

Has anyone read the updated/revised edition of Five Families? I believe he went into further detail/expanded on this concept, which was the original final chapter in the book.

Funny story. I was in college when that book came out(second oc book I ever read) and used to go to the bookstore to read it everyday. Anyway a girl I had a class with worked there and ended up buying me the book. Only catch was I had to leave it at her apartment lol.

It's no secret the mob has been recovering, Meyer. The FBI now only has two New York crews fighting the Five Families. The Jan. 2011 "Mafia Takedown Day" was almost a grand finale for the feds because a few months after that was when they first dismantled the separate crews for each of the Five Families and merged the Colombos with the Bonannos once more, as well as reducing the amount of agents across the board to only 45. Two years later, that number plummeted to 25 and the Genovese squad was merged with the Bonanno/Colombo squad and the Gambino squad was merged with the Luccheses. Here's a New York Post article about the situation:
https://nypost.com/2013/06/20/feds-only-have-2-squads-left-to-combat-city-mafia-families/

That is from 5 years ago, and it has not slowed them down, look at all the arrests and convictions in the past 5 years. They don't like their funding and power taken for them, and one of the most cushiest jobs in the FBI is a Mafia assignment. They stay in a big city as opposed to backwoods area or a ghetto, a shootout is very rare, and most arrests are met with no resistance. They also get bigger budgets.

Met with no resistance because they can just bail out with their blood money straight away. Which kind of defeats the purpose of resisting arrest.

@jace, busts against the Five Families have definitely slowed down. There is no disputing that whatsoever. The numbers don’t lie. I’ll see if I can find some figures when I get home, but I promise you that there is not the comprehensive attack against ALL five families that there once was. It seems the two squads focus on one entity at a time because that is all they can afford to do.
Whoever is in charge of the Colombos following the 2011 bust has had a reign unfettered by arrests for the longest time since the Colombo War in 1991. Liborio Bellomo, if he is still in charge, has had the longest reign unfettered by arrests since Chin. Frank Cali or whoever is running the Gambinos has had the longest unarrested reign since what - before Gotti? Bonannos and Luccheses have been hit relatively consistently but even Steve Crea had a decent reign as street boss/underboss for what it’s worth. We’re seeing less and less panels and interim leadership and more stable, longtime bosses, which really reflects the situation in New York.

I don't know if Bellamo is a boss, but I believe if he was they would have gotten him by now. The budget for th eMafia in New York is high, and that includes FBI, and the NYC police department organized crime squad. Add the 2 federal districts that prosecutors have to investigate. It's a lot.

It's a lot, but it's a fraction of what it was.

The real big downsizing began in March 2011, and continued on from there. Now there are a total of 25 agents dedicated to fighting the Five Families in New York. Whatever their budget is, they simply don't have the manpower to get the job done.

Since the FBI began rapidly reducing the budget for the Mafia just after Mafia Takedown Day, there have been five Colombo family member indictments. Two of these were caused by guys flipping from Mafia Takedown Day. The other three were laughably low-level - acting capo Luca DiMatteo shaking down a tattoo parlor owner for a few hundred bucks a fortnight, a newly-made soldier selling drugs, and two soldiers involved in loansharking.
That's a seven year period I'm looking. Let's compare that to the previous seven years - 2004- March 2011. During that time, four acting bosses were arrested/indicted: Alphonse Persico, Thomas Gioeli, Ralph DeLeo, and Andrew Russo. There were a total of fourteen different busts during that time. The caliber of the charges were much bigger too. You had multiple murders lodged against Thomas Gioeli, Alphonse Persico. underboss Jackie DeRoss. Most were the products of serious, longtime investigation that went (at least) as high as snaring a caporegime, and took down entire rackets and enterprises, like the bust of Joseph Baudanza and his crew, or Theodore Persico and his waste-haulage shakedown guys, or Big Anthony Russo's crew in Mafia Takedown Day. You also had four capos flip during that time, plus one soldier.

The Genoveses have still been on the feds' radar, mostly because of their continued dominance in New York. The "East Coast LCN Enterprise" bust, as well as other various capo-level busts in New York and New Jersey have grabbed headlines. But still... ZERO acting bosses or administration members, apart from a long-imprisoned former acting boss. Compare this to the 2004-2011 period. Three active acting bosses and three imprisoned acting bosses, until the family had to move to a rotating panel to avoid the heat. Not to mention there were simply MORE arrests made during the 2004-2011 period.

The Bonannos are a family that, albeit they're definitely trying, can't seem to find their footing. From the March 2011-Today period, they've had four acting bosses arrested. That's a lot. They've also had two consiglieres arrested. A grand total of fourteen made-member busts. But they are still doing a helluva lot better than the previous seven years. That saw another four acting bosses arrested, but with far more severe charges. Murder charges that put Tony Urso, Michael Mancuso and Vincent Basciano go away for decades. The bust in January 2004 put away the acting boss, acting underboss, three capos, three former capos, two former acting capos, and thirteen soldiers go away in one clean sweep - busts like that have not happened since. Likewise, a bust in 2007 put away the acting underboss, acting consigliere, two capos, two acting capos, and three soldiers. Seventeen total made-member busts, often with a lot more defendants.

The Gambinos, from March 2011-Today, have not had any administration members arrested. In the previous seven years (2004-Mar. 2011), they had two acting bosses arrested, two former acting bosses, a consigliere (twice), and three acting underbosses. The Feb. 2008 roundup saw the entire street administration arrested along with six capos or acting capos, and seventeen soldiers.