Isn’t Carmine Persico considered a prison

‘Punk’

From everything I’ve seen and read, it doesn’t matter if u lose the fight. What matters is, one sticks up for themselves. Now assuming for argument sake, he did get slapped by that black guy. And assuming he did nothing in return.

In prison, that would mean he’s gone into prey territory ie punk. And he’s one stage away from
getting asss raped. Prison rules does not respect any weakness and once u show weakness, you’re opening yourself up to extortionists, rapists, etc

If someone wants to rape an 84 year old man then they belong in a mental institution, not prison.

I get what you say but don't they say that rape isn't about lust or sex, but about power?? I mean they also rape guys in prison with all sorts of foreign objects, so an erect penis is not always needed.. A mob boss like Persico would never come back from that I reckon and I think the Persicos on the outside would also be effected by it, the Persico name would turn to shit..

Rape Carmine Persico, are you insane? The guy who were to do it would have to go into 24 hour protective custody.

He's not getting raped at Butner, I can about guarantee that.

He was able to protect Bernie Madoff and prevent him getting beaten around by other prisoners so we know that Carmine isn’t lacking respect.
He’s not getting bullied and he’s not getting raped.
https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www....uid/7B008348-3C93-11E7-A2B2-665E119D65B4

He should be beaten and abused just for protecting Bernie Madoff.

Imagine the pay off protecting Bern Madoff

Fair point. Maybe Persico's attackers want a cut of that.

Yes I get carmine has power, and was protecting Bernie. But that incident where some black guys were sitting on his favourite table in Chow, and he was slapped.... i’m not suggesting anyone wants to
rape him. But to get punked like that (assuming the rumour is true) isn’t good in prison terms. And obviously he did the smart thing when faced with much younger stronger black inmates. Again, if that happened, he showed weakness.

I'm not sure if an 80 year old man is even capable of defending himself in that type of situation. If anything, this is on the Colombos. The burden is on the family to either have defended him at the time, or respond in some way if they weren't there to defend him.

He is a very old man and he is well protected and looks much different then these twenty year old to 60 year photos he’s a old man.

And those stories are all twisted.

Ya havnt seen a recent picture of him. The ones on here are from the mid 90tys. 20+yrs ago

I take those stories with a grain of salt. Blacks idolize mob guys, thats a fact.

Where did this story even come from, if I may ask?
And besides, we know Carmine has "boys" beneath him in Butner, the same ones that ironed out the Bernie Madoff beef.

Really? You can't be even half way serious.

I heard two guys were in his seat and he asked them to move and said no.

The next day they moved.

I heard something, but it was a table.

Yeah,two other inmates seated at his preferit table in the prison cafetteria and the snake ordered him to go away they said "fuck you" so the next day the snake send his men to occupate for first the table.I know that when Gigante was sent in prison after the 1998 nobody ever had the balls to say "fuck you" to him.

It’s a huge difference from 66- to you mid to upper 80’s and being in the joint half your life kills ! When you see the next pictures of him if they are released it’s a big change.

How long hgas Persico been in Butner ??? Last photo I saw of him showed him eating with Anthony Senter at Lewisberg- or it's annex

Persico is an old time convict,nobody's gonna fuck with him.

If Carmine is touched as an octogenarian it looks bad on Colombo’s not him. No way he could be ever a punk lol

It’s not 1986. Inside the walls, the mafia probably holds less power than your average prison gang. He doesn’t have an army in their willing to sacrifice themselves

Definitely not, but Carmine Persico is not your average mobster. He is, and has been, the boss of New York's most violent Mafia family since 1973 and has been serving a life sentence since 1986. He has undoubtedly made numerous connections in the various prisons he's been at, and the Bernie Madoff saga proves that he has goons beneath him. Maybe these goons are mob associates currently at Butner. Maybe they're New Yorkers who are hoping to be hooked up with the Colombos upon release. Maybe Carmine's kicking them a bit of 'protection' money. Or, maybe Carmine Persico's legendary street and prison reputation is enough for certain groups of people to want to impress.
Prison connections are incredibly useful for the Mafia today, especially in the 21st century. I'll give you some big name examples - Ralph DeLeo, an out-of-state criminal from New England, was able to become the Colombo family's ACTING BOSS purely through a prison friendship with Alphonse 'Little Allie Boy' Persico. This is a guy that had never been a mob associate before meeting Allie Boy in prison. Thomas Farese was from Boston, met powerful Colombo capo Nicholas 'Jiggs' Forlano in the can, and upon his release partnered with him in a marijuana trafficking operation in Florida. By 2012, Farese was the Colombo family's acting consigliere, and he had even hooked up with Carmine Persico's daughter by then.
There are obviously far more examples, but the fact that somebody can become ACTING BOSS of a 100-man crime family based on a single prison connection alone, and also how someone can become an associate of a powerful Colombo capo after nothing but a prison friendship shows the importance of such connections. Off the top of my head, I also recall Colombo associate Joseph Petillo befriending Bonanno acting boss Vincent 'Vinny TV' Badalamenti in prison and getting Badalamenti's approval and guidance on various loans Petillo had to Bonanno associates. Prison connections are important, and prison cash (protection money) is just as important. Persico is not a poor man, and he is not a disrespected man.

Great input Nicky, sure makes a lot of sense..

I’m sure he gets plenty of respect and I doubt anyone has really bothered him the last 30 years.. I think most everyone would be in awe of a mob boss regardless of affiliation. But if someone smacks him in prison I don’t think he ends up dead as opposed to say the mid 80’s

Cheers BillyB.

JimmyI, I 100% agree, nobody's getting whacked for slapping ol' Carmine. If the guy slaps Carmine, and he happens to be from New York, and somebody knows a guy who knows him, then sure, he'll probably get a smackdown back from some young associates looking to please a Persico.

Very interesting and brilliant post. That deleo is a stand up guy considering he isn’t long term lcn. Remember reading a wiretap where he is talking to his sister and he can’t believe the respect that he is shown now he is acting boss. Shows there’s quality guys out there in jail away from lcn

It’s crazy he took his time like a man considering that, before he hooked up with the mob, he testified against his former criminal cohorts in exchange for a reduced sentence. I guess nobody in the Colombos did their research on him.

No way! Is that definitely true that he ratted? Is this common knowledge now?

In 1977, after an escape from federal prison, Ralph DeLeo killed a doctor in Ohio. To get out of that rap, he cooperated against another doctor who had hired him to carry out the hit.

Jerry Capeci (Gang Land News) released that information in a Gang Land article dated December 24, 2009.

I'll bet about half of the mobsters throughout history have traded a little info to authorities for some leeway. Most of the successful ones who made money and stayed out of jail had to have. This isn't Sicily. This is America. The dollar comes first and you look out for number one.

"Half of the mobsters throughout history?" What are you smoking?

If they had the mob would never have gotten as powerful as it did.

there was sitdown in boston like 2008 deleo, peter limone and ernie boy from the gambinos over a shakedown of a brooksbrothers in the back bay or the construction company doing it. the place is still there. it was hardly talked about thought is shows just how constructed the lcn still is. deleo was close to larry bione in the 60tys before he got the 25 yrs for bank robberys. he befriended many nyc mobsters in the feds to the point allie boy had him inducted as soon as he got to nyc. i wonder who did deleos induction where did it happen. i read somewhere some rat said the colombos werent alowed to induct guys then massino said ok 2 guys in 2000 it was big dino calabro and that older guy luca de........... wonder if deleo was in 979899 when allie was on the street always in florida

@Pmac:
Never heard anything on DeLeo meeting with Limone. Not saying it isn't true, but if it is it's not documented anywhere, so everybody else keep that in mind.
Regarding DeLeo's induction, Pogo on BH has it happening mid-2000 in a residence in Babylon, L.I. If you know anything about Pogo it's that he doesn't fabricate or make up evidence, nor does he ever claim to have secret sources.
Regarding the induction thing, I haven't seen that documented either but it definitely would not surprise me. Massino had a big Commission meeting in January 2000, that much we know as fact, and the following February the Colombos conducted their first ceremony in nine years.

its was in ernie boy abbamontes indictment a few yrs ago. he was on the payroll of some construction company in nyc and they had the contract to build a brooks brothers in boston. the feds seen the 3 meeting and surposely had something to do with terrritiry or help with the shakedown. he was indicted for like a 100k shakedown. its on here spmewhere . just never was a big discusion.

I could be wrong but I thought DeLeo meet with Frank Limone, Frank Imbuglia, Anthony DiNunzio, Tony Gambale and a Gambino soldier over that construction outfit.

This. Mob guys are heros to these guys.

And Deleo got busted when acting boss on a case that originated in Arkansas. A cop that used to work in my home town ratted them all out on gambling, drugs and guns.

Quite the opposite. The mob would have never gotten as powerful as they did had they not worked with law enforcement.

You idolize mob guys, too.

Furthermore, the blacks who make money on the street are more useful to the mob than white civilians, even white civilians from mob neighborhoods.

Mob > black earners > white civilians. That's the pecking order. So, know your place.

I can’t believe this is even up for debate.
What do you think the government works with informers for? It’s to make cases against the Mafia. If HALF - 50% - were working with law enforcement, wouldn’t that defeat the entire purpose of taking down the Mafia?
Not to mention that’s longtime FBI informers get a huge amount of leniency in court. And from the 1980s-today, the vast majority of mobsters have been indicted and received a fair amount of time for their crimes. Guys like Greg Scarpa got probation for serious credit card fraud. That’s because he was an informer. Most mobsters get heavy time for these things.

It’s simply common sense, Oak, and it’s completely nonsensical to accuse half of the entire Mafia of being rats. It makes no sense even from a law enforcement standpoint.
Not to mention that Greg Scarpa was incredibly prized by law enforcement because, according to Colombo squad supervisor Lin DeVecchio, he was the only person during the Third Colombo War that was providing high-level information. If “half” of the Mafia were rats, then they’d have at least 50 made members providing information on the war. Does that make sense to you?

Not to mention that the FBI would have known what Scarpa and DeVecchio were up too.
Carmine Persico still has respect in prison.

Lucky Luciano, the founder of the modern day mafia, gave guys up to the authorities. The organization would have never reached the heights that it did if some of the more successful players weren't throwing others under the bus. In this country you get along to go along. Nobody makes it without playing the game. The mob was no exception.

The Mafia would be long dead if HALF of it's members were government informers.

Not to mention that the government doesn't keep useless informers on their payroll unless they're contributing to a case.

No matter which way you look at it, rats do not comprise HALF of the modern day mafia. Look at some recent busts. I'm surprised you've been on the forum since 2013 and can't comprehend this. Most busts are comprised of one or two mob informants and they're able to snare a dozen or couple of dozen guys.

The guys who made real money and stayed out of jail worked with authorities routinely.

Which is not 50%...

Anyone who's anyone did.

Here it goes again with it's false claims. It knows everything.

Did Gotti?, did chin?, did Genovese?, did scarfo?... And the list goes on.

Likely, yes. Why wouldn't they?

Sucks that they had to die in prison after being such valuble government assets and such......

OakasFan is delusional, he's been on the forum for five years and he doesn't understand the basic concept of the FBI's war against the Mafia.

Not only is he 100% speculating and pretending as if he knows it for a fact, but he's also showing a basic ignorance for everything we know about the Mafia for the past 60 years.

my 2 cents im guessing carmine perisico is probaly one of the most respected inmates in any prison he goes to. it does matter hes 110 yrs old your reputation procedes you. this guy has respect among all races he 100 took out a d.a. attorney or tried. lead a mafia family either as boss or underboss or figure head since 1970?????

your in prison people wake up in a bad mood and might fuck up a old guy it happens. the young guy doesnt get stripes

Nobody stays rich and free while breaking the law without dancing for the man. That's all I'm saying. It's a matter of record that Luciano informed. I think all of the successful mobsters did. These guys like Costello and Accardo had to have. It's a business.

they make documentarys about the guy. i was surprised i seen scarfo taking a few pics with black muslims from dc or philly but it makes a ton of sense they respect his gangster. its the same everywhere. give respect get resspect. the a.b. is also more also more of a west coast thing i could be wrong i read somewhere they have 2 member from each state in each prison. this kid i grew up with is probaly 1 from mass hes a nut bank robber i cant say no more.

Yes this guy must be a legend to these guys. Served like 40 plus years long time boss of a family. Probably whacked more ppl then sonny. Imagine the stories he has. Valachi used to say he was everywhere. VALACHI was from the days of maranzano!!! Made young too. I digress but no one messing with him imo. Nothing to gain hurting a 90 year old

Didn’t know that. I take it his lcn days are over then in prison or out?

if deleo was younger I’m sure he would look to whack Capeci for releasing that. Just ruined his career over some ancient sh*t. Reporters should be careful doing that sort of thing can make them fair game to some of these guys.

He allegedly still runs the family from prison as he has since his initial 1986 imprisonment, although proper in a lesser capacity now that he's trying to appeal his sentence.

You keep lying over and over on here, it never ends.

It’s bizarre and pathetic, really.

He understands a bit, but wants to stir people up for whatever sick reason. He's turned everything into race issues and arguments. and calls other posters racist at an ever increasing pace.

Believe me, journalists have had some pretty scathing reviews about the American LCN and none of them have ever been whacked for it. There was a New York Post that (correctly) inferred Greg Scarpa Sr. was an informer (the article came out in the early '90s, could be wrong on the date). Scarpa, of course, couldn't do anything about it. There was a Times article accusing Aniello Dellacroce of being an informer, and he didn't do anything either.
Journalists are off-limits. That's pretty much rule no. 1. Police officers too.

Sorry Nicky I meant deleo not Persico?

Believe me, I know who you meant and my point does not change.

I think the Colombos will be really rebuilt after the snake the death with the real boss on the streets.

There’s no way he has much say about anything.. Every form of communication is monitored and with 100 guys or whatever it’s not possible to be updated on every situation. He probably gets some money and a couple guys probably fluff him up so he can feel important. I’m sure they respect him but he’s just too far removed for too long.

I don't think his person-to-person visits are monitored considering he's only in medium security. Same as how Michael Mancuso is/was able to relay orders through prison as recently as 2015 through his nephew.

Why?

The Colombos have been rebuilding with Russo in charge, little gains but they are indeed rebuilding.

Not to defend Oak here, but does anyone honestly believe someone like Frank Costello could attain all that power, rub shoulders with the political denizens of New York, become "Prime Minister of the Underworld", without selling a few of his chums down the river? Honestly now?

There were a lot less rats back then because the mafia were basically given carte blanche because the FBI were too busy chasing their tails over communists.

Look at how quickly Costello moved out of the way when Genovese tried to take him out.

A lot of these guys wouldn't have been able to do the hard time if the FBI dangled all the benefits guys like Massino, Leonetti, D'Arco and Gravano got.

I mean all of those guys got to keep the lions share of their illicitly gained wealth; the Feds even agreed to back off Massino's wife even though she was complicit in a lot of his rackets, he practically gave her more power than his own brother in law.

I don't think Frank Costello ever gave the Feds info, maybe a slip of the tongue right near the end of his rule, but not like how it is described as above. Luciano gave up some information to the cops before being made. Carlo Gambino is suspected of giving information to the FBN during the 1940's and 50's. Joe Colombo is suspected of giving information on some of the guys with the Gallo brothers. I am sure there are some back in the day before they were made. Once made they never mentioned the Italian organizations names, but other criminals not affiliated with them. I don't believe 50 percent, more like 5 percent, more when you include associates.

Snitching is just another rule that was made to be broken. If there's millions of dollars at stake, they won't hesitate. Look how they got Vito Genovese locked up.

To be honest I don't see what's so hard to believe about upper-echelon criminals having a relationship with the authorities. These guys aren't mythical heroes, and you gotta grease palms to get shit done. I absolutely can see these guys dropping dimes on their competition. Not in the traditional snitching sense where a guy takes the stand, but passing along info here and there in exchange for leniency or other favors. The world is not as black and white as some of you seem to think it is. Look at the well-known cases of guys who sort of "ratted their way to the top". Whitey Bulger/Stevie Flemmi and Greg Scarpa are the most well-known but I'd bet both balls there are plenty more who never had any paperwork to go with the info they gave up.

Have to fake it to make it and have to snitch to get rich. Carlo Gambino had a coffee mug with that phrase on it.

Here's the thing - the Costello era was completely different. In those days, law enforcement didn't corrupt mobsters, mobsters corrupted law enforcement. Most mobsters in those days never got hard time, and a lot of very successful ones were able to brush shoulders with high society. That doesn't mean all of them were snitches. In fact, the FBI's mindset in that time was to put organized crime and the Mafia in the backseat whilst the dealt with bank robberies and the like.
In an era where it was dirt-cheap to corrupt law enforcement and mess with the court system however you pleased, there is little point in risking your entire career and reputation to drop a couple of dimes on the competition.


No, no, no. There's nothing hard to be "about upper-echelon criminals having a relationship with the authorities." It's the notion that HALF - yes, 50% - of mobsters IN HISTORY were informers. That's the notion that I, and I assume just about everybody else in the forum, has a problem with.



If they never had any paperwork to go with the info they gave up then there cannot have been any substantial info. Which means their snitching was completely pointless. Which would mean that all they did was risk their career and reputation over inconsequential information that was so pathetic it was never even documented.


Here's the thing with using Greg Scarpa as an example of how an informer can use it to his advantage, yada yada. Greg Scarpa was a person who, over a 30 year period as an FBI, never spent more than 30 days behind bars despite everybody else falling around him. If you can find me more examples like that, you might have a case of a potential informer on your hands. The thing is, the vast majority of mobsters get locked up and don't have a seemingly mystical fairy godmother giving them lenient sentences. They don't have the feds vouching for less jail time. How can you argue that a mobster is an informant when he doesn't regular, heavy jail stretches. Why would the FBI conduct serious, lengthy investigations on their top-echelon informers?
Here's the other thing with Scarpa. Everybody SUSPECTED he was an informer anyways. Rumors went round for years. Peter Lance's book "Deal with the Devil" goes into more detail. Not to mention, Scarpa was open about having a "girlfriend" with the feds who could help him out. There was even a NY Post article written BEFORE his death that indicated he was a rat.
So how on earth can you tell me that 50% of all mobsters in history were informers? And how on earth can you say they were just like Scarpa, when Scarpa's underworld status was completely unique for 30 years.

Well said.

Although I reckon there’s a lot of dry snitching going on amongst mobsters. Enemies, jealousy, competition makes this likely. Dry snitching however ain’t the same as normal snitching sitting down with feds though. Not the same at all. There’s no get out of jail card for dry snitching obviously.

Massino was a rat, Costello never was. He had the authorities after him up until he stepped down, they were always leaking things to the newspapers to put pressure on him, and he wen to jail and was put through a vigorous public spectacle when he testified. The FBI thing is a myth, they went after the Mafia hard after Appalachia, and other agencies like the Internal Revenue Service and the Federal Bureau of Narcotics were all over the Mafia on a consistent basis.


The problem is some people have a knee-jerk reaction to any evidence or talk of a Mafia member being strong, and feel the need to jump right in and say they are all informers, cowards, weaklings, or stupid. SO they jump right in with such nonsense as 'He had to give people up"

He was locked up by the fake testimony of a Puerto Rican small timer, who got a deal from the FBN, so what are you talking about?

I'm sure the list of high level mob rats that we don't know about would surprise us and that there were a lot more than revealed, but 50% is way too high. Also, considering the era they were alive in, we can't dismiss Frank Costello and Carlo Gambino outright as rats just because they were successful. Law enforcement was all over them in the later part of their careers and Costello even had to do some prison time. Now they may have ratted rivals out in their path to the top before they became a major law enforcement target like we know Luciano did, but there is no evidence.

There is a whole section of articles written about mob guys providing info to the feds called The Rat Trap. You can find it at www.onewal.com, Tom Hunt's American Mafia site. Two or three were bosses and like one poster said it isn't a black and white issue. Just like families are not black and white as a chart would make it out to be. No two situations are the same....kicking up a certain percentage is not set in stone, there's not a family that's easiest to get made into, there's not an average yearly income for soldiers etc etc. People act like they know everything about the Mafia based off one informant or indictment when it's an ever changing situation.

@MightyDR

When Costello got out of jail he told the press all he wanted to do was go on a vacation to Hot Springs and then they could do whatever they wanted to with him.

Luciano received a 40 year sentence and was doing his time like a man till his friends cut. deal to get him out, Gambino was harassed constantly after Valachi testified, and they even leaked. taped conversation between him and his wife to harass him in the newspapers. They treat rats different. Greg Scarpa was given immunity to do as he pleased for many years, same for Whitey Bulger. The rats are never pressured publicly or privately, unless they stop giving info. If Gambino or Costello gave "Tidbits" as a few like to try to get others to believe, they would have way more demanded of them to keep them out of prison. Underobess would go away, and in the old day a few small pieces of info would have never sufficed. The fact is the Mafia thrived for one main reason: No rats till Scarpa. Anastasia's brother is sad to have gave info after his brother was killed, but how true is that, and who dis the actually give up? Answer: No one.

AFAIK, there are no examples of a rat giving a tiny tidbit of information to L.E. that resulted in an actual sentence reduction. Which was what OakasFan was implying. The fact of the matter is, in order to get a proper sentence reduction for heinous crimes the feds are going to demand a) that the informer in question goes public and opens himself up to testify against people, and b) give substantial information that can actually be used to at least obtain warrants for wiretaps, bugs, surveillance, or searches, or information that points the feds in a direction for an arrest.

The notion that a mobster can do a one-off drop of minor-level information in order to get a reduced sentence is bullshit. Frank 'Frankie Blue Eyes' Sparaco was an FBI informer during the war, and regularly provided substantial information. Yet he was still given a 24-year sentence for the Michael Devine murder, since he refused to take the stand and come out as an informer. Do you see what I'm saying, Oak? The feds hold the chips here, not the mobsters. You seem to be under the impression that all a mobster needs to do to knock a few years of his sentence or get the feds off his back is drop some minor, unindictable tidbits of information against his friends. No federal agent is going to go out of his way to request a reduced sentence for such lousy "informant" use and a judge would be foolish to agree to it anyways. Feds play hardball. That's why mobsters are forced to leave the life and take the stand. That's why mobsters have to give up serious information in order for federal agents to keep them on. That's why Frankie Sparaco still got a 24-year sentence despite years of cooperation.

No snitches till Scarpa?

Really?

There were atleast 2 snitches in Morello's family and I'm talking like 1900s.

There have always been snitches, from day one. Y'all can argue till your blue in the face but the fact is there have been snitches from the very beginning of the mob.

Read The Rat Trap articles. Read The Informer article by faithful1(and 2 other co-authors) about the early days of the New York Mafia. Read The Barrel Murder by William Flynn. Read The First Family by Mike Dash.

Argue the specifics of what constitutes being a snitch all day long but the facts remain.

Article about Sparaco: https://www.ozy.com/flashback/the-inside-story-of-frankie-blue-eyes-the-mob-killer-turned-rat/79914.

His son was a corrupt legislator who got jail time for election fraud.

When I said Luciano did, I was referring to his early days when he ratted out fellow dope dealers.

https://www.nytimes.com/1936/06/04/...-crimes-sold-narcotics-and-perjured.html

"Lucania admitted that as a youth he had sold narcotics and that once he had given Federal agents here information that led to the seizure of a trunkful of narcotics"

In Raab's "Five Families", he tells how this helped him evade arrest.

Faithful1 wrote an amazing article on Luciana for Informer magazine. It broke down the myths of Luciana and the inaccuracies of The Last Testament. He goes into detail about this early episode involving the providing of said information.

The guy who does the comic books, his first name is Chris but I can't remember his last name but he also wrote a good non hyped only facts book about Lucky.

If he's serving alone it's fucked up but he has probably wiseguys around him, like when he was in that band lol.

Thanks kingoflittlenewyork. I'll check them out.

" Y'all can argue till your blue"

"Y'all" Are we in Arkansas or something?

Those bloggers who have theories they go out of the way to bend to fit their agenda don't impress me. The Morelllo Gang was not really American Mafia, of which we are discussing. Y' all.

That's your argument? That there were no informants before Scarpa? My statement was not a theory, it is a well documented fact. Simply go to Mary Ferrell's site and type 'informant' into the search. You telling me every single source in the country is Scarpa?

I didn't realize a made Mafioso that moved to America and started a gang was not considered the Mafia lol

Would you like more examples relevant to the modern Mafia or are you just here to argue?

And yes I'm from Arkansas.

One last thing, who did Scarpa testify against to get less time?

If you are not familiar with Scarpa you need to read up on him.

He is not a reincarnation of Nicola Gentile, like I guess you imagine him to be. I've read everything on him you have buddy. He testified against no one. All those years of informing did him alot of good after he was sentenced to LIFE IN JAIL FOR MURDER in 95.

Nice try though.

Please tell me the mob didn't sell drugs next. Tell me Frank Costello didn't go to a shrink. Pull a pic and tell me Chin missed on purpose. But if your gonna sit here and say there where no snitches before Scarpa then your just out of touch.

Hell Valachi was even before Scarpa. Every blacked out name really just says Scarpa under it.

The FBI still doesn't release names of informants after they die so none of y'all can sit here and say who talked and who didn't. Hell Owney Madden talked and gave info to the FBI every damn month after he moved to Hot Springs.

No, Scarpa was giving info BEFORE Valachi. He was getting away with murders and robberies for 30 years, and would have kept getting any if his collaboration with the corrupt FBI agent had not given him away. They gave him way too much leeway, and the multiple killings in the war between the Columbo factions led to his going away. I don't know why you pull out Nicole Gentile or drugs, which has nothing to do with this. Just here to troll I assume.

Valachi testified in 63 but was talking to investigators before Oct 62 when Scarpa was arrested and flipped.

Your beyond reach, have a good night.

Scarpa was cooperating first, in 1962 according to his files, and was suspected by Columbo members and associates of being a rat in 1973, according to his sons book.

All pre October 1962 info was just guess work then. Mystery solved. Thanks for your help Jace.

[quote=kingoflittlenewyork]All pre 1962 info was just guess work then. Mystery solved. Thanks for your help Jace.[/quote

If that isn't sarcasm, thank you. I have never heard of Owney Madden being a rat, where is that from?

FBI reports on Hot Springs during antiracketeering investingtions to determine weather Chicago or New York gangsters had interests in the casinos of Hot Springs. He confirmed Gangster visits and gave info on local politicians and casino owners, including himself. Btw it's pre 1962 info.

And it was sarcasm....if you want to believe Scarpa was the first snitch in the history of the mob go right ahead cause I'm done with it.

Go to Mary Ferrell.org

Valachi was cooperating before Scarpa to the FBN. The FBN and the FBI were fighting for control of Valachi when he killed the wrong man. Jack Ruby was even an "Informant" to the FBN but he gave little info and misinformation, he has a light file to his name. The FBN had made members giving information to them before the FBI got involved.

How much did Ruby really have to give? Not much I think, if anything at all.

Just his rivals, and some meetings when the FBN pressed him. The file is really light has there are pages missing. The FBN had someone in the colombo family before Scarp

FBN and before them the Secret Service had informants at the turn of the century.

Yup, I heard it was Frankie Shots.

There have always been junkies and drunks in all fringes of all the families that some became informants once it became get out of jail free card it was open season and it will never stop .

Telling you they have to do lie detectors tests all the way to the boss it will dramatically save there ass and after time it will slow down any thoughts of rats like in the 50’s and 60’s many would die before ratting.

I don't think so, but someone close to Frankie Shots, John Oddo, and Phil Fontana that is for sure. Also the informant was born in Villabate, Frankie Shots was not born there.

lol do you really think a bunch of tough black or latinos go after a mafia boss since 1973? prison gangs go after vulnerable people, not mafia members
no way somebody direspect carmine persico in prison, i don't know usa prisons but i bet it
in italy is unthinkable to touch a sicilian/calabrian/neapolitan organized crime member in any italian prison, included the northern ones, but even in the states and outside east coast i think prison gangs stay away from organized crime members

That's probably what john gotti thought right up until he was getting his face pummeled. I don't know about new york, but in Chicago everybody left everybody else alone. Meaning the different races didn't bother other races

walter johnson was crazy, it's another matter

And Gotti provoked him if I’m correct . Clever old old school guys like Persico wouldn’t even acknowledge Johnson in the first place

Unless we going 50 years back to the 70s when mob had unlimited power and could get away with more with other inmates and guards. Guys like galante would of done the same as Gotti however he could back it up back then with power. Things changed since Gotti first prison stint back in the 70s! He didn’t change with the times though!

Thanks for posting the rat trap website. Been literally reading It every evening for days since you put it up. Whoever the guy is writing that needs to write more. Brilliant read.

If you have any more website shouts like that please post!

It is a great site overall not just the Rat Trap section. I'm sure your already aware of David's Gangster Inc site. There is one more I can think of now let me find the link real quick.

http://www.allanrmay.com/site/7aa0693c081140819f3cf333e8710811/default?url=http%3A%2F%2Fallanrmay.com%2FShort_Stories.html#2764

This is Allan May's site, he is a contributor to Rick Porrelos American Mafia site. Which is
http://www.americanmafia.com/index.html

Rick wrote 'To Kill The Irishman', the Danny Greene book that was made into a movie.

There is a list of sites for researching the Mafia faithful1 has, pm him and ask for it because I simply don't want to post it as my own.

The link for Allan May's site didn't post right but you can simply type Allan May Mafia into Google and it will pop up.

Also fbi.gov has a vault of FBI files that have been released over the years, they are not all about the Mafia but there is a search feature and A-Z index.

Also www.maryferrell.org is imo the best site there is for researching the Mafia. It is based around the JFK assassination investigation but is full of FBI files on the Mafia.

I hope this helps.

Thanks again little king much appreciated. Will check the Allan may one out now. I find the Mary Ferrell one too hard to use.

Edmond Valin is a guy in Canada who makes guesses at who the rat is in his Rat Trap articles, he has nothing at all to go by for certain. He also has a noted tendency to pick the highest person he can as his suspected rat, and blends actual reports that don't name the informer with his opinions where he gives the name of the informer as if it's fact.
Just another of a million people with blogs who think they are experts.

If you are referring to him outing Bill Bonanno then he is right. Bill Bonanno was indeed an informant for the FBI. As far as I know, he might stamp his name on the article, but there are others helping him.

No, Bonanno was an informant later in life, I agree. I was referring to the bloggers other stories I read. He would take a vague snippet of a document and twist it to fit his own narrative.

Bill Bonanno became an informant during the Bonanno war, he was approached, but declined then in the fall when Joe Bonanno disappeared, he became an informant, then when Joe reappeared he stopped, and only gave vague details and information after that. Bill Bonanno was an informant before he even published his book.

When searching FBI files it helps to be very specific. You rarely will find long drawn out 'article type' entries but the info you do find is interesting.

The articles are atleast entertaining. But you are right, there is no way to be 100% correct when attributing the info to someone. He does his best to make his point strong though.

Be Rat Trap article out today on Lefty Rosenthal

post a link cant find a rat trap .com just pops up literal rat traps

Go to onewal.com

The Rat Trap article about Gambino Family rats was great

Allan may short stories are brilliant FYI thanks again for the shout mate

The one on Carmine Lombardozzi makes no sense, since he was pursued till the day he died by both the FBI and police, he kept doing time, and had one case after another in court in the last years of his activity. The blogger puts a few tidbits of info from various files together, and decides on his own that Carmine Lombardozzi was a source, he then puts it on a blog where it gets picked up by people online who just go with the story.

I too don't believe Lombardozzi was an informant, I think it was a soldier in his crew or at the very least, someone who knew Carmine.

That makes the most sense.

In ´ndrangheta it´s allowed for a Santista (highranking member) to report some criminals to the police in order to prevent feuds and murders.

in fact sicilian mafia members always considered ndranghetisti prone to be informants, ndrangheta is not the most secretive criminal group, since the beginning it was by far less secretive than sicilian mafia, sicilian mafia has more informant only because italian government go after it heavily after 1992

Good points jace. I didn't actually know Lombardozzi was pursued beyond the 60s and 70s.

Still, good to read info from a Gambino Family source from that era, whoever it was.

This 'Snake' of a Mafia Boss Was First Accused of Murder At 17

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...a-boss-was-first-accused-of-murder-at-17

Good article. You could nitpick a few incorrect statements there but overall it seems both DiMatteo and Benson know their shit. Looking forward to the book.

Frank Dimatteo strikes me as a man exaggerating and lying about his knowledge. Everything he says about Persico, form the Garfield Boys gang to his early arrests have been in older books or discussed multiple times on the internet. He grew up near the Gallos, but was not in their crew or close enough to know as much as he claims. I doubt he even knew Persico. Maybe he said hello to him once as a teen, that is not enough to fill a book. He'll still do it and make money.

He indicated in that article that he didn't know Persico but, due to his being around the Gallo crew, was raised to think Persico was a "rat." I've never read his first book so I have no idea how much he claims to have seen or heard. It helps that Michael Benson, a researcher, is there to help him write the book.

I the has Benson as a researcher, and I assume he is a good one, do you think the research will play a bigger part than DiMatteo's own knowledge? DiMatteo already wrote a book and has published many articles in his own magazine, I just can't believe him anymore. I looked at the article and everything he says is old news known for years.

You're right, everything in that article is pretty much common knowledge. I guess this book will just cater to people who don't know much about Junior already. I doubt DiMatteo or Benson can offer any new, groundbreaking information unless they interview people who knew Carmine or FBI agents who listened to him.

Thanks for that one Hollander. I'm apprehensive about checking out the book for the reasons other posters have mentioned, but will probably still end up buying it just in case there is any new info. Great pic of lil Carmine

I wonder where the carmine wants to go on 60mins and do a interview started. He gets 100yrs in 1987 hes still calling shots from lompoc. He order a handfull of hits the family loyaly did even killed a d.a.s dad. He appoints orena acting boss in 89. Where did the rumor come from. If he wanted to do a 60 min interview they would have been at the prison the next day. He seen what happen to joe bonanno.

Joe bonnano was snitching on people and tried to make it look like he wasn't. He was an original boss so he knew better

I appreciate your succinct characterization of me.

Show me where I tripped up? I'd be happy to make any changes. Ed Valin

PMac the stuff that is made up in our life is just the same in that life so so many things that are media soldiers hand around guys alone is out of control.

If there is any truths to that kind of stuff like if a reporter over herd someone in Carmines camp say jokingly we should go on sixty minutes and there you go ! They will run with it .... just like Scarfo banished to Atlantic City and 10 paper clips quote WTF.