Carmine Persico vs Vic Orena

Lets imagine that in 1991 Carmine Persico steps down as boss of the colombos, giving the official boss position to vic orena. With that happening and the third colombo war being avoided, what would u imagine happen with the colombos?

Carmine Persico would probably be out of prison by now like Christy Tick... If the feds can prove he had ANYTHING to do with the war from behind bars, he won't get out. And there is probably a lot of rats like Carmine Sessa that could say that he was.

If you look at all the bosses of the 1990s in New York, none of them really came out without incarceration. Vic Orena was never a particularly low-key guy, so I would assume that he wouldn't make it to the new millenium without being busted.

There would probably be greater control over the Cement and Concrete Workers' Union. Joseph Scopo was Vic Orena's underboss until he was whacked in '93, and him and Ralph Scopo Jr. continued controlling the union following Ralph Sr.'s 1986 life sentence. But Joe was whacked, and Ralph Jr., whilst not "shelved," was only truly brought back into the fold when Paulie Guns Bevacqua introduced them in 2009, if I recall correctly. That's a double-edged sword because, whilst Ralph Jr. ran the unions in the 1990s without attracting any attention, if the entire family had their claws in, it might be easier for the feds to bust.

Wild Bill Cutolo, personality-wise, was a lot like Vinny Gorgeous and John Gotti, and, if you've read Larry Mazza's book, you know he wasn't interested in staying low-key. He surrounded himself with so many people that, had the feds properly investigated him, they could probably cultivate a few rats, bug a few phones, make a decent case out of him. The '90s were simply not a time when mobsters could be loud and brash like he, and many others, were. But he had an incredibly large, young, and violent crew under him, similar to the Scarpas. Nowadays, a lot of Scarpa guys that were in the early 20s in the war are now being made and are soon going to be the family's "middle-management." Larry Sessa, Danny Capaldo, Joey Savarese, Big Anthony Russo are some notable examples. I think that if the war were never to happen and Cutolo was never whacked, it would be a similar situation with the young Cutolo crew guys.

I don't know what would happen to Carmine Persico's relatives. You have to remember that Vic Orena was actually a cousin of the Persicos. Maybe if it was a completely peaceful solution, with Carmine respectfully standing down, the Persicos (and Russos) would still be in good shape. Perhaps Little Allie Boy would be made underboss?

As Larry Mazza described, Vic Orena was disgruntling those in the Persico ranks before the war by emphasizing inductions on Queens guys. He also made his sons, and inducted a lot of New Jersey guys. Sal Profaci's crew was only disbanded due to the war. Off the top of my head, these are some of the many consequences I can think of.

Twelve people, including three innocent bystanders, died in this gang war, and 18 associates have never been seen again.More than 80 made members and associates from both sides of the Colombo family were convicted, jailed or indicted. 

The Colombo under Orena wouldn't be kicked out of Commission and can continue bussiness with the other families and Orena would made new members so the family could have almost 150 made men and a nj crew.
I dont think that Persico would out like Furnari because he is a boss.

No, because Slim specifically said "what if Carmine Persico steps down as boss of the colombos"

Also, I sort of disagree. Every family in the 1990s ended up suffering APART from the Bonannos, probably due to:
1. The Bonannos were the only family without a dedicated FBI squad (remember it was disbanded when the Bonannos were kicked off the Commission)
2. The family spent the 80s and early 90s avoiding other families, and therefore they weren't taken down by the OTHER families' rats and investigations.
3. Joe Massino was a really smart guy.

The Colombos still had a dedicated FBI squad on their ass, so they would probably go the way of the other three families. Also, they have always worked with other families, so other investigations would continue to hurt them. Vic Orena... he's smart, sure, but I don't know if he's in the same league as Joe Massino. The Orena faction was responsible for some huge fuckups and lost despite the overwhelming numbers advantage, which wasn't entirely his fault, but still.

Also, the Colombos were at 101 made members in 1987. That decreased after the war because they were barred by the Commission for making new members.
I think that to assume the Colombos would have gone from 101 members to 150 members (which is, according to Al D'Arco, the families' cap), is a bit of a stretch considering all other families (except the Massino family) were hurting for numbers in the 1990s because of the multitude of problems that the 90s presented.

But, yes, I 100% agree their NJ crew would still be active, and I also believe they would still have a presence in Queens, unlike today where their present is diminished (albeit still there).

The Colombos today are very centralized, and very concentrated in Brooklyn (Long Island, Staten Island and Florida to a lesser extent). Andy Russo's reign proves how centralized it is. Regular capos' meetings and various crew members and capos intermingling much more than I've seen for the other families.

Meanwhile, I think with Vic Orena, it would be a bit more branched out across Brooklyn, Staten Island (the Amatos would probably be stronger because they were SI-based Orena guys), Long Island (Franzese would be active either way), New Jersey (Sal Profaci, Tom Petrizzo, etc.), Queens (Joe Scopo, Ralph Lombardo, Joe Baudanza), and Florida (Tom Farese). Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is up to interpretation.

I think the one good thing about the Persico's extended family in charge is that they don't rat. Look at Teddy Persico Jr. The guy has spent pretty much his entire life in the can and never ratted. Little Allie Boy spent huge stretches in prison. Teddy Persico Sr. The Russo Boys (JoJo and Chucky).

This is all speculation, so it's not like there is any way of proving what I've said.

For sure not 150 but from 1991 to 1999 Orena would made new men maybe 10 or 20 at least.

Off topic, but why did vic orena order the murder of colombo capo vincent jimmy angelino?

carmine orderd it.

Vic didn't want him as acting boss. He saw him as a problem and many felt Jimmy wanted to run the show all by himself. The Persicos were also afraid they'd lose power if Jimmy got too popular.

If Vic had the numbers and his crew was so young and violent why did they end up losing? Lol

that book a deal with the devil about scarpa goes into length about it. people liked the guy jimmy, persicos felt threatend. vic couldnt kill another made guy especially the consig without carmine ok. sessa pulled the trigger and took over the consig spot even thou he was only indcuted 2yrs earlier in 1987.

Compared to the Persico faction, Vic's crew wasn't particularly that much more young and violent, I was just saying that Wild Bill's crew was, just like the Scarpa crew.
Little Vic lost despite the overwhelming numbers partially due to the fact that Lin DeVecchio was allegedly able to provide assistance on the whereabouts of some Orena members that were hiding out.

Orena get the numbers but the snake persico had the tought guys like scarpa and (more important) went the war turn bad for orena many men changed side and when orena was arrested was the end.Scarpa used devecchio for gain informations on the orena loyalists and for protect him by the police while the orena loyalists was arrested.

Thanks for the responses guys and that makes sense and I forgot about Scarpa....

Not that I “like” any of the Mafia families but I was never that interested in the Columbos (interested is a better word then liked ha)...

Exactly. I'll bet Lin DeVecchio gave info more than we know, and covered for the side Greg Scarpa on many occasions.

@ Homers, because he has no idea what hes talking about. Just sweeping statements that possibly someone might believeas the facts.

As I said earlier, my information on Wild Bill's crew and personality is from Larry Mazza's book, 'The Life,' which is a great read if anyone is interested. Mazza recalls many instances of visiting Cutolo's social club where dozens and dozens of young crew members hang out like an entourage, and talks about how Cutolo didn't care who was around him, as long as he had a crowd. I think Mazza accused the Iannaci Bros. of being crackheads, and they were some of Cutolo's top guys, for instance. This is similar to the Scarpa crew in the sense that there were many young, drug-addled, violent guys looking to make a name for themselves.

Let me know if you've got any more concerns, Rooster. In the meantime, do you have anything to add to this conversation? Any speculations and insights? If not, leave this thread, because one of the things that makes me not want to post on GBB is because I know that you'll always chime in just to flame and start arguments.

NickyfromTampa and The_Rooster, are you two married (to each other)? You sure act as a married couple, fighting all the time. It's getting ridiculous between the both of you. Neither will admit to this pissing contest you have and it's becoming old and quite frankly boring already... Until the Board management can decide on how to handle this sandbox act in an equitable manner the two of you are to ignore each other here in public on the boards. If you both can't act as adults you'll both be treated as children. One word of warning - do NOT start pointing fingers at each other now and claim the other one of you started it.

Also, I would like to add that the Colombo Bros. (the sons of Joseph Colombo Sr.) left the family following the Orena war, because they refused to come back into the fold. This was detailed in their March 2004 indictment. They had some impressive rackets going on in Manhattan and upstate NY, including pretty sophisticated construction shakedowns. According to Gang Land News, they also had sitdowns with other families over gambling & loansharking turf, despite being shelved by the Persico admin. All I'm saying is, if they could do all that as an independent entity, imagine what they could achieve with the blessing and support of the entire crime family. Since Anthony Colombo, the eldest son, was the de-facto capo of the shelved Colombo Bros. crew in the '90s, I assume he'd be a capo if Orena had been able to peacefully get the 'boss' title.

What I find the Colombos to be clowns and hypocrites. Junior Persico is keeping the throne of the Colombo borgata for his own family. This isn't a monarchy. I can't believe the Colombo soldiers would comstantly eat **** from Carmine barking orders from California. This thing doesn't pass from father to son, it should be the best man for the job.

Could you imagine if Carlo Gambino on his deathbed instead of the original mistake he made, what if he made his son Thomas the new boss? $ wise it isn't comparable, Tommy Gambino made Little Allie Boy look like a corner store hustler. But don Carlo realized at least somewhat that you can't let nepotism go fully to your head.

But my whole point was that ok, let's say the Persicos want to treat their borgata like a monarchy. Well what about Sally Profaci? The son of the founder. He was backing Vic Orena on the wire tap. He wasn't backing himself because his father was Joe Profaci and that since his father was boss that now he should be. What I don't understand is how did Persico win the war? Was it all due to Scarpa and DelVechio? Selwyn Raab made it seem that out of the 125 Colombo button me, 4/5ths were pro Orena. And the other 1/5th backing Persico were literally just his blood relatives. How did he maintain control?

The best way to put it would be to say the FEDS won that war.

But essentially, the Persicos were the last men standing because the Persico men went on the run for a few years, and were therefore able to (in a limited capacity) interact with their street soldiers. Many say that DeVecchio tipped Scarpa off, who tipped his other men off, which led to them going on the lam. Meanwhile, Vic's guys didn't get to lam it. So all of the top brass of the Orena side were behind bars, and the Persico side were still holding regular meetings (according to Larry Mazza), not mention the fact that (possibly due to Scarpa again), many of the young Scarpa hoods were still out on the streets. Johnny Pappa, Eric Curcio, Fat Larry Sessa, Fat Danny Capaldo, Larry Mazza, Jimmy Del'Masto, Larry Fiorenza, Tommy McLaughlin, Tommy Gioeli, Dino Calabro, Dino Saracino, Joey Caves, Dean Gargagliano, Joey Brains, Frankie Blue Eyes, Joe Saverese(?), Big Anthony Russo, Big Frank Guerra were all on the streets in 91' and '92, and they were out every day looking for victims. I think Fiorenza, Mazza, Del'Masto, Joey Brains, and Frankie Blue Eyes were indicted as the war was coming to a close, but that still left a lot of heavy hitters on the street to finish the job.

The Feds won the war? Devecchio going off the reservation with Scarpa wasn't an FBI directive.

Next you'll be saying the Feds ordered these imbeciles to kill those three innocent victims who died during their botched hits.

WhackWhack, Thomas Gambino, I believe, didn't want the title of boss. He wasn't a gangster. He was a businessman, somewhat, who just profited illicitly from operating in the scope of a crime family. Can you imagine him ordering hits or asserting himself in sitdowns? Why would he even want it? Daddy made sure his bread was buttered; I believe he even went to a private school. Stone gangster.

The feds won the war as in they brought the family to its knees. Nobody came out of that war any better off, except for the feds with all the arrests and defections they were able to make.

Yeah, I was just coming back to say I misinterpreted your comment. Apologies.

No worries, Moe.

If youre talking about Cohen from Buffalo who was connected to the Colombos youre 100% correct, although under the guise of Nicoletti

Yes but the decision to made boss his cousin Paul Castellano and not Dellacroce wasn't a wise decision,and if I remember well Don Carlo never inducted his son Thomas.
For the colombos the power is power and without a commission nobody can force persico to step down,maybe when teddy jr will be out he (in my opinion) could made him street boss but the snake until his death will continue to be the boss.

Didn't know the Colombo bros were still going that strong so recently. Thanks Nicky.


I would guess that the family would be in much better shape if Persico stepped down and Orena became the official boss with the war being avoided. Most likely there would be a lot more "talent" left alive and out of prison in the Colombo family. However, the feds were still on their case so a lot of people would still go down. First of all Vic Orena. He was convicted in 1992 of a murder unrelated to the Colombo War.

war or no war they were all pretty fucked cuz of scarpa.

They lost because Vic was fighting against Persico/Scrapa and the FBI.

Scrapa had the most hits and he should have been taken off the streets alot sooner. You lock him up and minus out his hits and the Intel he gave against the Orena faction....

Orena wins the war.

Very good point about Vic Orena’s bust.

And regarding the Colombo Bros., Chris Colombo fought the trial, got a split verdict, and then retired from organised crime with a low-budget TV show and interviews about his life. Anthony Colombo moved to LA and also retired, as well as writing a book about who really killed his father. He died last year.
Gerry Clemenza, a soldier and member of the Colombo Bros. Crew, spent a few years in prison and has been all quiet since. One thing to mention is that Clemenza was doing exceptionally well financially at the time of his bust, and was a country club member, high-roller gambler, and showbiz socialite according to Jerry Capeci.

I agree with you on that BensonHURST the feds kept Scarpa going and he was the main enforcer for the Persico faction.

Also Frankie Sparaco was also a top shooter and working for the feds.

Orena did not get convicted of war related crimes because he was sentenced to 3 life sentences, no need for the feds to waste resources when at that point he was taken off the streets for ever.

Was Tommy Gioeli originally under Scarpa? Wikipedia which is notoriously inaccurate says he flipped allegiances during the war. I've read a few books on Scarpa and never seen Gioeli's name mentioned. No one has mentioned the role Carmine Sessa played in the war, he basically kicked things off by running and telling the Persico side of the vote Orena intended on holding. Did Sessa testify against his brother who got life? Carmine they say flipped within minutes of getting arrested.

The Orena side seemed to have support of other families, no hands on help, but tacit approval to takeover. Joel Cacace was another guy from the Orena faction who had a crew of killers around him. It's amazing he survived the war, Scarpa really wanted him dead, they had a few shootouts. Cacace was supposedly vocal in labeling Scarpa a rat. It was a very interesting war with a lot of plots and subplots. I never had an interest in the Larry Mazza book, but I'm going take Nicky's recommendation and check it out.

Sessa was such a peace of shit. How can someone be so disloyal? Flipped within minutes? Testified on his own blood? Hope the colombos whack that rat asshole.

Tommy Gioeli was always close to Scarpa and IIRC they were cousins although I could be wrong on that last part. Gioeli seems to have always been a staunch Persico loyalist and I haven’t seen anything indicating he switched sides. But I think the reason why he wasn’t linked to Scarpa much during the war is because Scarpa was a soldier in another crew (Scarpati crew) and Gioeli was a soldier in... I think it was the Russo Crew (JoJo and Chucky Russo). I am not at home so I cannot double check this in my notes. But IIRC, Gioeli was behind the Minerva/Imbergamo slayings on Long Island and the Russo cousins bragged about it to everyone on the Persico side (the Russo cousins were convicted of the LI slayings). So there’s that. Tommy Gioeli was inducted in 1987 but Scarpa wasn’t a capo so he was put in another crew and Gioeli had his own set of young hitters under him similar to Scarpa.

Carmine Sessa was the principle leader of the Persico faction when the war began, but his poor leadership meant guys like Joe Tomasello and Teddy Persico became the chief guys. Larry Mazza goes into detail about Sessa because Sessa was a young Scarpa associate like he was, and Sessa was a quiet, unassuming thief. Sessa was inducted in the late 80s IIRC and quickly rose to consigliere under Orena. Remember that consiglieres are supposed to hold the role for life, be well-respected, experienced, and intelligent. I don’t think Sessa ticked any of these boxes, and Mazza is vocal in his book about his opposition to Sessas promotion.
According to Mazza, Sessa was terrible at boasting morale at the dozens of Persico faction meetings he held, got flustered and stressed at bad news (guys like Joe Tomasello had to hold him out because he was always passing out upon hearing bad news).
When the indictments came down and all the top Persico guys went on the lam, Sessas wife negotiated a deal with the FBI. Sessa organised a secret meeting at a cathedral but never showed up. It was an FBI sting and all the top guys were arrested.

Sessa didn’t flip within minutes. He was on the lam for months.

So if sessa wasn’t well respected, why was he promoted to consigliere?

He flipped within ten minutes of being arrested.

https://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3781361&page=1

But he was on the run for months, and his wife made a deal with the FBI whilst he was on the run. So, technically, he flipped before being arrested. The meeting at the Cathedral was a set up. I'll see if I can provide links when I can.

Long Live The Rooster.

@ SC, disappointed in you that you had to stoop to name calling. But youre the boss. Feel bad for you too now.

@ Loscalzo, your nonsense about Tampa still holds no weight and Ive been vindicated many times over.

All the best to Nickle, Bensonhurst, Cabrini, and Giacomo. Keep up the good posts in my absence

I wound up getting Larry Mazza's book, and it was better than expected. Carmine Sessa did testify against his brother Michael.

The book description makes it seem like a steamy romance novel... but the book is an incredibly well-researched insight into the wartime Colombos.

Persico’s and there extended family (blood) has been helpin $ encouraging relatives to come from Italy and have been for many years .

It’s great to see some locals posting about the family nothing better coming from guy that grew up with these guys , I know the family from a different angle 90% of it upstate where for years they have been mostly business well other then the war days.

The family has been quiet and growing without headlines really the best time for that family since for ever but at a big cost .

Any names? Haven't heard of any Persico Zips. In fact, of the Five Families, the Colombos seem to be the ones with the least Zips at all.



I agree, although I think it's important to note that just because a family is not generating headlines (the Colombos) does not mean they are growing, I think it's more to due with the fact that the FBI has put them on the backburner. Remember that the crew investigating the Colombos is (since 2013) also investigating the Bonannos and Genoveses and it seems that those two have been getting most of the attention.

But I agree that the Persicos still control that family with an iron grip and that entire bloodline has dipped their beaks into just about every racket imaginable.

I don’t mean zips as in Gambinos just saying next time there are headlines you will hear of what I said but by no means a family or crew of them , talking 10 or or a little more single guys and family men .

Also not saying all of them are involved but they are there.

Possibly would of happened if they were not in the business but it’s been going on for some time.