Rank each OC outfit in terms of power (US)

If you had to rank each OC outfit (I don't just mean the Mafia, I mean every OC group there is) in terms of power (by which I mean street power, influence, wealth - not so much numbers or manpower), what would your ranking be?

In the US:

1)Sinaloa Cartel;
2)Mexican Mafia;
3)Russian Mafia;
4)Big Circle Boys (chinese);
5)American Mafia (only east coast).

1. Fbi, Dea, Atf
2. Politicians
3. The cops/pigs

1. Genovese family

What do you mean by street power?

Street power meaning, who is most influential on the streets, who has the most say, etc. Like the way the Five Families basically controlled commerce in NYC in the 50s-70s.

In that case it's hard to say. Things can vary from region to region so :

Local Syndicates
1% Clubs
Prison Gangs
Street Gangs
LCN
Transnational Syndicates

Well, who would you say is most powerful in NYC in that case, particularly in Brooklyn and Staten Island?

La Cosa Nostra is still most powerful organized crime group in the US.

I agree, but only in the Northeast.. And you can make a convincing case that this makes them the most powerful in the country, as the Northeast is the most populous and wealthy region of the US..

I take it 1 step further, Only in their territorial cities as it always been. There's plenty of unknown local syndicates in other regions of the U.S.

I'm assuming this is directed to me,
LCN crime families
Local Syndicates
Prison/Street Gangs
Transnational Syndicates .

Is the LCN really more powerful than the Mexican cartels in US now? I mean the Cartels basically controls the drug in US am i right? I dont know , i dont have so much knowledge about the US but what has come to my mind is that the LCN are bunch of softies in comparison to the Cartel guys,, yea they still make money of frauds etc but in terms of street power?

Can really a Cosa Nostra member go to a bad neighbourhood in New York and tell them what time it is like they was capable of before?

Im just curious and asking you guys who knows better.

Mexican Mafia probably has the most influence and power over the most people. Having hundreds of gangs kicking up money to them regularly, setting up rules and codes throughout gang neighborhoods in California, having a strict program that is followed inside every county jail and prison in California by Hispanic gangs under them and even throughout the federal system. Influence over and feared by thousands of gang members in the streets, jail and prison. But they probably fall way short in terms of wealth.

It depends but in general no, an old wiseguy can't physically manhandle a young narco. The power from LCN comes from a totally place than pure muscle these days, the LCN and Sinaloa are fishing in two completely different ponds..

LCN is mostly white collar these days: medicare frauds, construction racketeering (bid rigging and the like), gambling and loansharking. Sinaloa is a DTO and only a small percentage of their income comes from human trafficking and what not..

LCN is just a part of Italian organized crime in the US, you also have sicilian mafia, 'ndrangheta and camorra.

What!! Really?? You don't say paisan, never heard of those 3 organizations before..

As far as on a nationwide level , I'd say the Sinaloa and Jalisco New Generation Cartels . After all they operate in various parts of the country as opposed to select areas , control a very large chunk of the drug market , and have great influence over the actions of other criminal organizations .

What influence do they have over other crime groups in the US?

1) american mafia (lcn)
2) street gangs (bloods/crips/ms13)
3) bikers
4) prison gangs (eme)

the sinaloa cartel supply several local groups with drugs but i don't think it has great influence over them aside some southern zones

I might be wrong here , but I imagine there are a few American criminal organizations that source their drugs directly from the Sinaloa and JNGC cartels , which obviously results in them having a lot of power in terms of being said organizations suppliers .

There must even be more American criminal organizations who buy their drugs from suppliers who buy from said cartels , which results in said suppliers ( whether they be independent dealers or gangsters ) wielding a lot of power .

In short a lot of American criminal organizations depend ( either directly or indirectly ) on the cartels for their supply of drugs and very few ( if any ) of said organizations mess with the cartels or their close associates , since doing so would be tantamount to killing the golden goose .

I don't think this has ever occurred , but to use a salient example , the Sinaloa cartel could end a conflict between US gangs by threatening to cut off their supply of drugs . Few ( if any ) other criminal organizations that operate in the US have that kind of behind the scenes power .

How could MS and bikers be above La Eme.. there’s no way.

American crime groups that's heavily involved in drug trafficking do maintain business with the Mexican Cartels yet outside of constintence drug supply the Mexican Cartels have little say in the everyday actions/activities of those crime groups. There are cases of American crime groups ripping off cartel middlemen and others have drug suppliers from Columbia, Peru, Carribean, West Africa, Europe, and Asia. Cutting off supply line will be cutting off a prominent income and wouldn't stop any ongoing conflicts between rival American crime groups. They just go to a different drug source or fight over the next biggest racket.

I'll concede that you much more than me about organized crime BF , so I won't try to argue , however for the sake of furthering the discussion I'd like to jot down the following scenario :

Say there's a garden variety street gang in Chicago that's heavily into heroin and cocaine trafficking . Said gang wants to find a non Mexican cartel connected supplier for whatever reason . How does said gang go about finding said supplier ?

I mean most of the wholesale heroin and cocaine market in the US is supposed to be in the hands of various Mexican cartels ( most notably the Sinaloa and JNGC ) as per the DEA and this information is supposed to especially apply outside of the Northeast . In other words it would ( seemingly at least ) be very hard for such a low level Chicago street gang to find a non Mexican cartel source .

After all it's not like the present day Outfit is heavily into wholesale heroin/cocaine trafficking and unless said street gang were to have connections to the Outfit , then establishing a fruitful business relationship would be hard ( if not next to impossible ) .

@2A,

They would connect with Nigerian Syndicates for the heroin and Carribean, South American , or Black traffickers down south for the cocaine.

The Biggest Mc like Hells Angels,Otlaws ad Bandidos are feared on the streets and are deep into drug and weapons traffick while Sinaloa is the biggest coke supplier and in us border states are much feared on the streets.The lcn is more focused on the white collar crimes and less on the street crimes at the prison gangs even if had members on the streets are more strong in prison that out.So:

1)Sinaloa
2)la Eme
3)LCN
4)Bikers
5)Prison Gangs

The Russian mafia has a U.S. president in their pocket.

You can start your list there.

Bikers, 1% type, most prison stg and Street Gangs[18th ST, Crips, Blood's,Various Aryan cliqs,ALKQN, Netas' etc].are not in the same league as La Eme[the exception for prison stg's] or LCN, Triads and Yakuza and the cartels.

I think a definition of what consists of influence and power, the definition changes with each organization, perception is a key driver, remember Luca Brasi still sleeps with the fishes.

There's different scales of activities but it's not that drastic league.

Yeah I just read some ( admittedly dated ) information about Nigerian traffickers operating in Chicago from the DEA , not to mention that Chicago has a lot of ( if not the largest amount ) of fairly sophisticated/well connected street gangs , so using it as an example wasn't the best .

That said I bet there are many second and third tier cities in the US where the Mexican cartels are the only game in town , so I think my point stands in that case .

The Mexican Cartels won't ever be the only game in town since they rely on local networks to distribute the drugs. Some Wholesale level and majority of Mid-level & Retail level trafficking are domimated by American crime groups period. Cartels just supplying the wholesale drug trade and that's their main influence.

Yes that is correct , however said cartels very much exercise a great deal of ( indirect ) influence via their domination of wholesale trade . After all they could apply a great amount of pressure on low level organized crime groups engaged in drug trafficking , by threatening to cut off the supply of drugs , either by telling the middlemen that they won't be getting any more product if they don't talk some sense into retailers or in a more direct way by telling the retailers directly ( though the former is probably more likely to occur than the latter ) .

And as an aside I meant wholesale trade when I typed the only game in town . Of course there are places in the US where lower level gangs can buy ( to use a good example ) heroin from non Mexican cartel suppliers who also obtain their supply from non Mexican cartel sources all the way up the line , but to my understanding such places are more the exception than the rule .

Of course correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge Colombian and Dominican OC groups have little presence outside of the Northeast and Asian OC groups generally don't operate outside of cosmopolitan cities/metro areas .

I ( admittedly ) know little about Nigerian groups , but they seem to be much bigger players in Europe than over in the States . I mean I don't even recall them being mentioned in the DEA's latest national drug threat assessment .

The DEA havr mentioned Nigerian groups several times in the heroin trade. Mainly Chicago, Baltimore, DC, and Houston are some of the first cities that come to mind involving Nigerian DTOs. At one point in time Nigerian DTOs was supplying 40% of the heroin market in Chicago during the 80s or so according to the Chicago's DEA office.

The Nigerian groups are a smart bunch. They willfully limit their role to that of "transporters". There's basically zero violence associated with them - except for a few cases in Europe involving petty small time drug dealers who happened to be of a Nigerian background. They appear to have zero interest in "territory". They bring the product, get paid, and everything after is handled by traditional OC groups (mobs, gangs...).

I'm not aware of Mexican cartels having assumed the role of peacemaker in the US either , however a ( hypothetical ) brutal turf war in the US could force them into that role . After all such a conflict could result in making it harder for said cartels to move their product into their area and so forth . Which would naturally result in them having a vested interest in brokering such a peace .

That is certainly correct . For what it's worth , I never claimed that Mexican cartels are the only wholesale suppliers of drugs in the US , however their position of being the predominate suppliers results in them having a lot of ( mainly ) indirect influence . It's highly unlikely that any of the cartels would exercise their power by directly warning lower level DTO's to calm down or what have you . In all likelihood it would be the middlemen telling the retailers to try and cool it , while hinting at the possibility of supply falling off .

It's definitely an easier task to source heroin and methamphetamine without going through the cartels at some level , however the same is not true of cocaine . Of course one can do so via Colombian channels , but the point I was trying to make is that even those retail heavy DTO's that ( say ) buy cocaine from Atlanta based American traffickers are indirectly buying from Latin American traffickers , since virtually every gram of cocaine trafficked in the US ultimately originates from Latin American traffickers . Then again there is the possibility of the ultimate source of origin being a Latin American based Ndrangheta clan , but the current activities of those fellows in the US is next to unknown , so I rest my case .

Yes I have seen those reports as well , though Nigerians seem to be absent of mention in the latest DEA threat assessment . Anyways I think it's safe to say that they have little presence in much of the American heartland , which makes them have less influence in the country as a whole .

Anyways I don't really have more to say and this has been a productive exchange so that's about all on my part .

yes, but it is what all criminal groups usually do outside their territories, it's what italian and russian mafia does in spain for example, or albanians in italy
only where you have some neighborhoods in your hands you can control territories like arabs in france, at least drug trade
if you have not at least a neighborhood you cant do so much, just that
italian mafia in the states had control of territories since the beginning, but the target of italian mafias is that, not only drug or illegal activities, it's coz ndrangheta infiltrated several north italian zones

The hypothetical brutal war is much more a reality in case of drug related business. It's been going on and off throughout the U.S retail market. It haven't interrupted the cartel's business. No different when cuban and columbian traffickers were gunning each other down in Miami.

Middleman could possibly hint at that but face the risk of being killed themselves.

The meth trade in the U.S have become more focus on receiving it from the cartels than production. Undoubtedly true in cocaine trade with alternatives being Carribean connection. Who's to say it's not from a Latin American Nigerian Syndicate.

Nope. Nigerian Syndicates activities been heavy in the U.S since the mid to late 70s along with their other prime racket : Frauds/Scams.

Good discussion with you as well.

Due to their violence and power, Would not the Mexican cartels dominate evry beef with other OC groups in US?

Im from Europe so i dont know about US...I know that in Europe they wouldnt ,,but there is not many of them here.

Mexican cartel’s extreme violence is in Mexico, not in the US. I can’t imagine them getting involved with everyday gang politics and other beefs in the US. I’m no expert on all the details of operation, just going by what I’ve seen. I know that they do have influence over piasas that work for them, especially those that have a lot of family in Mexico. They rarely do much violence across the border but will threaten to harm friends and family still living in Mexico if you disobey orders or piss them off.

They supply the drugs to US gangs and other crime groups operating in that business. They have power over their income. They simply can just offer a gang or other crime group a discount on the supply to get it do things for the Cartel. If they don't agree, they can find any other crime group in the region which will take their offer and get rid of that group and go in their place with the Cartel support.

It doesn't work like that in the U.S.

Ellaborate. How does it work then?

They won't offer a discount to the crime groups to do anything for them nor will another random crime group take up the offer. The supply meets the demand and business is conducted regularly. Anything the cartel do here in the U.S could jeopardize their income. That's why i said eairlier that they mainly supply , collect the money, and mind their business. The politics between American crime groups involve in the drug trade is generally none of the cartel business nor interest.

It doesn't work like that even here in Europe, do you know any people from organized crime in Europe ? It just doesn't work like that,once they deliver supply , they don't give a fuck about other business,they sold their supply,that is all they care about.They have their own people to take care of their own things.

Could it be that first time i agree with BlackFamily

Yeah, I've met and know people who are associated with Russian OC groups in Latvia. I have friends who are doing time in prison and are living by Vory V Zakone ideology(you can call them a prison gang if you want). I know few people from Denmark when I used to live there, from Arab gangs(Black Army, Loyal to Family) and also people associated with Bandidos MC there. Hells Angels for example in Denmark have their support group/gang called AK86, which works for them to solve conflicts with other gangs. Many members of AK86 later are later recruited to Hells Angels.

I was mainly theorizing about it, but as I don't know the situation there - I'm not saying my theory is true. The main idea of my statement was due to the connection between La Eme and how they put managed to gain control over gangs in Southern California, by simply stating that sooner or later their gang members or relatives of them will end up in prison and will need protection.
As they are Mexican, there is a big chance they have connections to Mexican Drug Cartels. Such as the Tijuana Cartel used a gang from Logan Heights to murder El Chapo, the plot failed in result some priest was killed(yeah it happened in Mexico). So, why wouldn't a Cartel use a local US gang for solving their beef if it has happened in the past?

Yeah, I've met and know people who are associated with Russian OC groups in Latvia. I have friends who are doing time in prison and are living by Vory V Zakone ideology(you can call them a prison gang if you want). I know few people from Denmark when I used to live there, from Arab gangs(Black Army, Loyal to Family) and also people associated with Bandidos MC there. Hells Angels for example in Denmark have their support group/gang called AK86, which works for them to solve conflicts with other gangs. Many members of AK86 later are later recruited to Hells Angels.

I was mainly theorizing about it, but as I don't know the situation there - I'm not saying my theory is true. The main idea of my statement was due to the connection between La Eme and how they put managed to gain control over gangs in Southern California, by simply stating that sooner or later their gang members or relatives of them will end up in prison and will need protection.
As they are Mexican, there is a big chance they have connections to Mexican Drug Cartels. Such as the Tijuana Cartel used a gang from Logan Heights to murder El Chapo, the plot failed in result some priest was killed(yeah it happened in Mexico). So, why wouldn't a Cartel use a local US gang for solving their beef if it has happened in the past?

[/quote]

That's primary La Eme connections back to the hispanic barrios of L.A. aka Surenos and Nuestra Familia does the same with Nortenos in North California. The obvious theme is that Mexican cartels reach out to the hispanic community in the U.S for different occasions. It won't mainly be the case like Logan Heights.

la eme is mostly a prison gang, what power it really has outside prisons? is it control neighbourhoods? is it forces drug dealers to pay taxes in tribute?

Through Hispanic barrios surrogates in metro L.A.

La Eme was originally a prison gang but of course they’re more than just a prison gang now. But yes, their control of county jails and prison is how they gained their power over Hispanic street gangs.

La Eme, (not the Mexican cartels)does have an interest in stopping Hispanic gang beefs. The cartels just need to get the stuff over the border and sold pretty much. They usually don’t care or know much about the inner workings and beefs going on in the US.

But La Eme has and does make long standing beefs between gangs end. It doesn’t always work even with Eme intervention because some gang beefs are so long standing and traditional that even La Eme can’t really stop them but under the right circumstances and people in the mix it can work. A more recent example would be Thee Rascals, Tooverville and Frogtown in North East LA, which had a peace agreement after decades of feuding. This obviously helps keep law enforcement’s heat off some while money can continue to be sent to the top. And at least guys go to jail and prison for trying to earn rather than just petty gang beefs. The vast majority of gang beefs throughout the city remain active though. Further out in the Inland Empire/San Bernardino county there’s treaties that have lasted far longer, going on a couple decades now. Some of it has to do with how connected certain gangs are to the Eme. Some gangs have more members within the organization so they work closer and more directly which makes them more loyal and willing to follow rules to the tee. Other gangs have no direct contact with the organization whatsoever but will follow the rules in jail. But basically if a Hispanic gang earns, a percentage is supposed to kick up to the organization. Not all gangs sell drugs, some just tax independent dealers in their area and then a percentage goes up. Some gangs do a bit of everything while others are broke and have no money.

Thanks for the indepth info. Which barrio in North California have the most ties to Nuestra Familia?

I don’t know much about Northern California gangs. So I can’t speak on that. But on the subject of gang beefs being ended, the big rumor right now is that there’s a peace treaty going on between Nortenos and Surenos within many California prisons. I’ve been hearing rumors that this has been in the works for years with higher ups being interested in ending the rivalry and merging together. Of course to the average low level gang member this is still unthinkable and many are still in denial about it but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s true. How long this supposed peace treaty in prison lasts is hard to say. I can’t imagine it all becoming one organization just due to the identities and structures in each side being so ingrained. And I’d be curious to see what the Northern side is willing to agree to. Being that the North has been allied with the Black inmates for so long, do they suddenly stab them in the back and side with the South in prison riots? Well I guess it’s still too early to tell but this is what I’m hearing from people that recently got released from the system.

Peace treaty is possible under right circumstances and individuals keep a level head. The merger isn't going work out due to everything you just stated.

I don't want to beat a dead horse , but to apply the example I used in my exchange with BF to Europe , wouldn't a big time outfit involved in the wholesaling of drugs step in if ( say ) a conflict between lower level gangs were to make life harder for them ?

I realize there are few ( if any ) real life example of this scenario playing out , yet the idea of big time outfits having this sort of influence seems sound in theory . After all a brutal gang war between ( say ) low level outfits in a port city like Rotterdam could very well lead to heavy police presence , which would obviously have an effect on the outfits bringing in/selling drugs in wholesale quantities . And said outfits could obviously calm things down by merely threatening to turn off the tap .

Of course this is all just theory , which is why I'm curious as to the possibility of it occurring in Europe .

When was the american Cosa Nostras most powerful era ? Lucianos time?

Absolutely...None of these other groups have the connections or political clout that the mob has !!

I agree.

You might mean had and again powerful in what or general collective ? Generally speaking just like every other crime group they're powerbase have always been in their territorial cities and not nationwide in every major city.

It really depends on your location, some groups are extremely powerful in certain areas but don't have a very far reach. Other organizations are spread out but may not have a major stronghold so to speak.

If Luciano and the mafia were that powerful politically they would never have kept going to prison for such long terms, and their names would have been kept out of newspapers as much as possible. Instead they were highlighted and prosecuted. Luciano got 45 years in a suspicious case. Genovese died in prison. If Costello was not shot and forced to step down he was likely headed back to prison. Sam Giancana was hounded so much by the FBI he sued and won. The most politically connected and powerful groups are the ones we rarely. if her hear about. LCN is the most overrated, over followed and over publicized crime group in the world.

" The ones we rarely if ever hear about" is a myth. If ANY organized crime group ever gains some sort of power, you can bet your ass there will be reports on them.

Fact is not a single crime group ever influenced public life as much as the Mafia ever did in their power bases - which are territories where there's law and order as opposed to semi-third world regions.
They're the Mafia, other organized crime group are thugs. Sorta sophisticated thugs, sure, but still thugs.

That last statement is an oxymoron right?
No other crime group in the US influence public life...your missing other groups Joke.

Exactly, people like to compare LCN to the Russian Mafia in Russia or the cartels in their own countries which is bullshit because the law enforcement in those countries is a joke compared to the fed bastards in the states. The Russians are an overated joke in the states, and in the states the cartels are just drug peddling goons, not much political clout or anything like that.

Sure, street gangs, biker gangs, other ethnic mobs...have influence in their enclaves...but to the extent the Mafia penetrated vast political and legitimate business spheres? I don't think so. To "some" extent, yes, but as vast and infiltrating as the Mafia did it? Not even close.

How vast are you speaking of in political and legitimate businesses? It seems abit of exxageration but I'm attentive to see a listing of sorts.

Well, the unions for one...building and contracting...as well as the usual mobbed up bars, restaurants, garages...etc...etc...
At their peak, they even managed to create an entire city (Las Vegas).
Sure, other criminal organizations are involved in political en legitimate businesses, but to the extent of the Mob? In an advanced society? I'm not sure about that.

That's not saying an average Italian-American criminal is more intelligent per se than an average African American, Russian...etc...etc...one. It's more of a "right time, right place" case when they rose to power.

I completely agree, thus many other crime groups nowdays are overrated and publicized making a hype out of them for the public.

lol you forgot the italian mafia/cosa nostra didn't exist for american law in te past and even hoower denied it existed, only in 1970s they started to say it was a criminal group with ranks and rituals, if i'm not right

Well, the unions for one...building and contracting...as well as the usual mobbed up bars, restaurants, garages...etc...etc...
At their peak, they even managed to create an entire city (Las Vegas).
Sure, other criminal organizations are involved in political en legitimate businesses, but to the extent of the Mob? In an advanced society? I'm not sure about that.

That's not saying an average Italian-American criminal is more intelligent per se than an average African American, Russian...etc...etc...one. It's more of a "right time, right place" case when they rose to power.[/quote]

I give the labor unions as being LCN advantage bar none.
Building/contracting have and still being committed even by freelance racketeers.
Legit/Fronts businesses such as bars, clubs, restuarants, car washes, laundromats, auto shops, and clubhouses ( 1% clubs) had and currently involved a myriad of crime groups
Political corruption was rampant nationwide during LCN prime and crime groups took advantage from Jewish crime groups to Policy/Numbers operators and Bootleggers. Alongside came Bikers & Chicago Street Orgs as well.

Yes , I'm certain in an advance society there were other crime groups involved in legit establishments and corruption in their locale. It's just they're rooted in America not an offshoot of a foreign criminal association.

lcn is also heavily involved in waste disposal, i doubt street gangs, bikers or others ara involved in that field

The Irish, Jewish and Italian criminals had the political connections in the US.

Basically everybody at some point.

In terms of wealth it’s the Mexico DTOs

In terms of Power / Influence it’s the West side hands down

They can still shut down the largest port in North East and could also disrupt certain Trucking and Garbage removal / recycling business if they wanted to ( trash piling up and / or weigh / transport / landfill operations closing which could cause environmental issues not to mention garbage being backed up everywhere )

See the Port Newark strike several years ago which was largely due to WFC hiring practices . Now that’s real silent power if you can shut down global trade in the most wealthy region on the planet ( NYC , NE NJ etc.) and power DTOs don’t have .

They only walked off for a day but if they decided to strike for a week almost every large company in the USA earnings would be affected

They could also seriously disrupt construction operations (trucking of supplies , carpenter and concrete services ) in the NY / NJ area if they really wanted to .

Their power in these industries has waned but they are still relevant and active in certain areas

Whats the West side if i may ask?

Genovese Family

I suppose this subject may deserve a thread of its own , but how much state/federal level pull do most LCN groups have in the present day US ? My hunch is that little to none , especially outside of the Northeast and Chicago area .

Even in their prime golden age it was local officials.

Funny that American crime groups don't have international presence like these other groups.

Didn't the Chicago Outfit and the Tampa family have CIA connections in their heyday though ? I've also read that many big time LCN heroin traffickers shared the secret service connections of their Corsican and Sicilian counterparts during the French/Pizza Connection days , though that could be mere conjecture .

I don't think the Outfit nor Tampa family had that type of connection as you may be thinking of.