fat tony and the castellano hit

i know it's probably the most talked-about subject
and most of you guys hate read it (btw i don't really know if it's a question or just something that i want to share)
i always think about what would happen if fat tony wasn't in prison while the hit occurred,
maybe even gotti and gravano wouldn't even have the balls to even think of making a move against paul if fat tony was around
and if they did it while he's on the streets i am sure he would have get them whacked and not by a car bomb
he would wait for the right moment and kill them.

and please don't bust my balls
if you don't like reading it then go on and don't respond though i can't really see what there is to respond because i just shared my thoughts.

We can only speculate. But I think Gotti would have done it anyway.For what it's worth, the legend is Gotti and his crew thought they were living on borrowed time after Neil Dellacroce passed away. If you think you will be hit anyway...

I don't think it would have made any difference,since Salerno was only the "front boss" who served to deflect the heat off of the Chin,who was the actual Boss of the Genovese Family. This was an open secret in the New York Mafia,and if Gotti wasn't afraid of the Chin,he sure as heck wasn't going to be afraid of Fat Tony. This only serves to show how blatantly stupid and arrogant Gotti was. He really believed that once he became Boss,no other Family would dare make a move on him. If not for a very lucky coincidence, Gotti would have been blasted into the phantom zone.

Don't some say that Lombardi was still the official boss of the Genovese up until his death and Gigante wasn't the de facto boss until late 80s?

My understanding is that Lombardo stepped down around 1981 or so and named Chin Boss and then Chin named Salerno as front Boss.

funzi tieri died march 31 1981 i bet at his wake or funeral is around when lombardo steps down and chin takes over officialy. just all my guess. with funzi tieri under indictment all of 1980 then dying out on bail it makes sense that when chin took over maybe even christmas 1980

funzi tieri was lomarbardos underboss and street boss around 1974 till he gets indicted late 79 early 80ty. then chin becomes underboss and takes over 81 maybe when tieri dies. he taps fat tony out of semi retirement and he becomes front boss. fish cafaro testified the whole stucture who was what when hes was inducted in 1974 he said it was officiated by tieri the underboss and fat tony the consig at the time. i think the consig spot changed alot in the 70tys like rotating yearly

If Gotti etc weren't afraid of Chin I don't think they would have been afraid of Fat Tony. And if Fat Tony was still on the street I don't think it would have made much difference. Gotti already had the Genovese and Luchese family gunning for him.



Don't know who says that but Vincent Cafaro testified that in 1981 Salerno had a stroke and was taken down as boss and Lombardo retired leaving Chin as the official boss.

That's what I read Salerno was retired and Chin put him back as front boss

Nowhere have a I read of any NY guys being scared of Tony
Chin yes nothing about Tony

If they made the move knowing at the time chin was the commission enforcer
And basically said FU to him

I don't think Tony would have made any difference

I always wondered why is Chin was really all that powerful why he didn't just put a formal hit on Gotti

he did it back door behind the sceeens almost like he was afraid

He used Gas as the fall guy

My understanding is that Lombardo stepped down around 1981 or so and named Chin Boss and then Chin named Salerno as front Boss.
From what I heard on the streets & know back in those days when I was a heavy hitter( no pun intended)...Benny Eggs had Alot 2 say & do around 79...80..etc..this guy was/is no joke...he may have settled down now that he way fuckin'old....but my old friend Salvie Testa swore by him..2. say the least, he (Benny Eggs) oversaw when Nicky became boss,,keeping everyone @ bay .

After the Car bombing and the death of Frankie DeCicco in 86 , It became almost impossible to get to John Gotti only bc the FBI was on him 24/7. Remember that guy that took a shot at Gotti outside the Bergin and was later found in a body bag in a candy store on Staten Island ? The guy who took the shot at Gotti was tied to the Genovese family thru a relation. Bobby Boriello was said to have shot the triggerman after he missed Gotti. Gotti was to well protected by the FBI and was on high alert after these two failed attempts on him. That is when the Genovese started killing Gotti's guy's (Lino , Boriello) . Then in the late 80's Bobby Manna was trying to kill John and Gene and was convicted for it. John gets arrested in 1990 and now he was impossible to get to. Truth is Gotti was saved by the FBI or he would of been murdered also.

To the original question: I don't think Fat Tony would have made any difference because, as others have said, Gotti had reason to believe in kill or be killed. But: Gotti and his close circle had reason to think they could get away with the Big Paul hit because the other Dons resented Castellano for disparaging remarks he made about them on tapes the FBI made and released. More important, the Dons were afraid he'd make a deal with the Feds on his RICO rap and rat them out in order to spend his last years with his Colombian house maid and lover, Gloria Olarte.

Fat tonys muscle at that late sate of his life was cafaro. Hes on tape ordering cafaro do this slap that guy. Cafaro then used i think cubans and pueto ricans to keep all the numbers places paying. Bet fat tony didnt loose any sleep when paul died. He knew he wasnt the boss either so who would harm him. Read chin didnt like a boss being killed cause it could happen to him same with amuso after he becomes boss in dec86.

The guy that took a shot a Gotti they threw in a van and brought him to STATEN Island and left him dead in Joe The Cat Lafortes basement of his candy store.
Not sure who actually pulled the trigger
I know Joe Watts was in on it.

Gas had the Mafia Cops kill Lino
I think for Gas this was personal he thought Gotti was in on the plot to kill him
So he was out to get him since then and he was such a deranged maniac he just wanted to kill everyone.

And it was Gas again that killed Boriello

I understand Gotti was hard to touch
But back then when a HIT was ordered they used to send car loads with shooters, back UPS and back ups to the back ups.

I am just saying if Chin was the Almighty why didn't he just put out official hits on the guys who killed Castallano, he had the commission behind him.
Why not take out Sammy
Could of taken out a Gotti as a message any one of them
Jr. Pete

In my opinion he was SCARED if he tried to hit Gotti and failed with Genobeese shooters what would have happened.
So he went back door with GAS, sneak attack

When the Philly guys killed a boss
Look what happens to them.

The Philly guys had it comin' U kill a boss u get it next..Scarfo was only cleaning house as he was expected to do..as the scumbag that he was,,he enjoyed that part of the job.. many yrs. ago ,,I met him.. & his reputation preceded him ...a real dickhead w/a HUGE ego.

They killed the boss with the Genovese boss's authorization. If somebody theoretically should have had it coming, it would have been Tieri, Gigante and whoever else did sanction it. Caponigro and the other Philly guys were just tools cleverly played by the Genovese.

My point was more with Chin

I was saying I have heard so many times Gotti was scared of Chin

I am saying if you think about it

Chinn and his crew were the commission(s) enforcer(s)

When the Philly guys killed a boss for whatever the reason was look how Chin did them.
When Gotti and crew killed the "BOSS of BOSSES" look how Chin handled the situation.

To me it seemed like Chin was scared to take on the Gotti crew directly.

Does anyone agree with this?

I agree with your logic but isn’t the only reason we know the Genovese were involved because Phil L flipped? So at the time they weren’t openly involved.

I don’t think he was really scared of Gotti it was more fear of what happens when you openly kill a NY boss.....

Killing a NY Boss is different then killing the Philadelphia Boss....

Would the Gambinos try to retaliate? What would happen to the rackets that were shared? How much heat would it bring from the feds? Would the guy who actually did it flip?

Plus it sets the president that it is okay to openly kill a NY Boss.

He took out the guys in Philly as an enforcer for the commission
So all the families knew what he did I would imagine.

When I say just go after him I dont mean so that the public would know more so LCN would know.

Killing a N.Y. boss is different but he did try to kill a N.Y. boss and he did actually kill a N
Y. Under boss

Fear of any repercussions is saying he was afraid?

I said I basically agree with you but you just said yeah the commission knew they were cleaning up the guys who killed the Philly boss.

But the commission didn’t know that the Genovese tricked the Philly guys and made them the falls guys.

So it didn’t appear as though the Genovese were behind taking out a boss....they were seen as the ones who wiped out the guys who broke the rules (killed a boss)...

So for them to next go and openly kill a NY Boss... then the expectation would be those guys who took out the boss get killed.

Your logic does makes sense but I just don’t think he was scared of Gotti.

I doubt Chin feared anyone, maybe Gotti was just very cautious. And how would they kill Gotti anyway? The FBI and the reporters were all over Gotti. Maybe that was why Gotti seemed to live his life in the public eye, opposite of the way Chin lived. Are they going to shoot someone knowing he's probably being followed by cops and reporters?

I think the chin didn't want to hit john also because he didn't want to start any war.
Vincent was a boss who seem to really care about the family but also respecting the rules
I guess he let it go eventually.

You know is ironic is that at that meeting Gotti and Chin had
Gotti was happy he made Jr and Chin abused him about that.

Look where that situation is today

Chins son is facing almost double digits and Jr. walked away from the life.

I hear what you are saying about Gotti and Chin BensonHURST. I don't think Chin feared Gotti, but he would have feared an all out war between the Genovese and Gambinos if he didn't pull it off properly. That's why he didn't "officially" sanction the hit. Even if the other Commission members backed Chin, Gotti etc wouldn't have taken it lying down and it would have been a war.

The only reason I bring that up is because I keep seeing other peoples opinion saying Gotti was afraid of Chin

I don't think Gotti was afraid of anyone

He killed the Boss of Bosses
And went home to his house and went to sleep

The other guys went into hiding

Why didn't Gotti ever take a shot at Chin or anyone else from the Westside ? , Why did the FBI tell Gotti that his life was in jeopardy ? Accounts of Gotti's reaction to being told this was absolute fear. Bobby Manna"s crew was caught on tape plotting to murder John and Gene Gotti and no retaliation? Castellano was killed bc Gotti thought that Paul was going to strike first yet when the threat came from the WS Gotti did nothing about it. Chin had Casso doing hits for him , why open him self up to any indictments when u can have some one else take the heat ? Chin out thought and out classed Gotti in all matters LCN. Never heard Chin's voice on any wire tap. Gotti's caught on tape admitting to Murders ! Danny Marino and Jimmy Brown were conspiring with Chin and Frankie DeCicco had told Gravano that we will give Gotti a year and if he don't work out we will clip him. That being said I will give Gotti respect for doing what he felt he needed to do with Paul. Paul was no Chin.

Gotti made some mistakes
However, the feds spent $100,000,000. "ONE HUNDRED MILLION" to take down Gotti.

Thats.more then spent on a few small.wars over throwing goat's.

No one could with stand that amount of resources.

He got caught on tape in an apartment that he
1) Had swept for bugs
2) in an apartment that the feds didn t know about for over 50 year.

He shouldn't have spoke about the.murders.

That was all the evidence that had besides Sammy.

My point is he want a babling idiot it was an error judgement on his part.
Yt? 5

Castallano, Ducks, Langella, Persico they all were caught on tape.

Chin should have let Gas kill Pete Savino
Or he should have

That was chins mistake and because of that mistake the feds were able to build the windows case.
That case brought down Chin, Gas and Amuso amoung others.

Who else did Gotti'S tape bring down?
Locasio?

Sorry over throwing governments

So I'm aware that when Neil Dellacroce passed away Paul Castellano didnt show up for the wake and I understand John and Paul weren't getting along also at the time I'm just curious wasn't Castellano on trial or was there just an investigation going on in terms of Castellano wonder if he really didn't wanna be seen at the funeral by the FBI or was it really a fuck you to John by not going eiether way this is what got Castellano Hit in motion for John by Paul not showing up correct?.....Also did Tommy Bilotti show up to the funeral or did have Paul have him not go as well?

yes Paul was gonna be on trial for the Commission case so that's why he didn't go to the wake. I'm not sure if Bilotti went( I dobt it considering how close he was to Paul) but that is a interesting question. Paul had no love loss for john but I doubt he did it just to say "fuck you" to John. Paul ddint think much of John although he did say on a few occasions that he had balls.

Rite.... I'm just curious cause Neil and Paul were close for a long time correct and then just to not go that says something and after the fact Persico, Amuso,Chin, and Rastelli pulled one on John and got Frank DeCicco but who did the contract go to or DeCicco

For DeCicco*

Gotti thought Paul was going to whack him and/or his crew for the violation of the no dealing rule.
Or even worse tPaul was going whack Gotti'S ego by busting he and his crew down and separating them.

Castallano was on trial with the Demeo crew and was indicted or about to get indicted for the commission case.

Whether Castallano showed to Neil's wake or not I do not think it mattered.

No Neil should have gotten promoted to boss when Don Carlo passed or that's what the majority of the family thought.
Castallano got the promotion because he was Gambino's brother in law.

The family was divided into two factions 1) The white Collar (Catalleno) 2) The Blue Collar (Dellicroce)

The family was on brink of war for a long time it it weren't for Neil's respect for the rules and the fact he was very old school there would have been a war.
That is part of the reason some of the old timers backed Gotti after the coup.

Chin and Gas plotted to whack Gotti and that was it.
Gas and some one he had hired thought Decicco was Gotti that day and that's why they blew him up.

There was no formal contract put on Gotti or his crew. There was a plot behind his back.
This was done back door and behind the scenes to make it look like Sicilians from Italy did the hit.
USA bombs were outlawed by the commission becaus it brings negative attention.

So maybe the question should have been
"Why gotti didn't retaliate"
Well Maybe he was scared of war But who really knows...

I see now ... Thanks Bensonhurst...my other question is lets say Dellacroce passes like he did and John for reason balks on the Castellano thing more or less Castellano passes for whatever reason if John would have never pulled that power move on Castellano...who would of been next boss in line for the Gambinos would somebody of been in more favor rite away after Paul is what I'm tryin to get at

Maybe it's just me but it seems like also you never heard much about Bilotti until Paul was boss right or wrong?

No
And he made a bad choice in putting him as UB

you know what i don't know if from paul prespective putting bilotti was a mistake
cause he needed a tough guy under him to bring fear and to get the guys from dellacroce faction to be loyal to him

Tommy Bilotti was a white collar guy correct that's prolly why Castellano had him close by but it was the blue collar guys that were the tough guys back then ... You woul think Gas being the way he was ruthless and what not he would of thought wow this John just whacked a boss he's got balls me an him mite have something in common but Gas never did like John correct

I dont know anything about Billotti
He was.picked becaus Castallano knew that he was going to lose atleast one of the two I cases against him and and was going to go away for life.

So Billotti was his way of controlling the family from the inside it was someone he trusted to be loyal.

Remember Ruggerio who was really really close tried to take out Gas, it was an in sanctioned hit.

Gas didn t know where Gotti stood on that hit.

Gotti should have killed Ruggerio for what he did.

Because he didn't it appeared that he either k we about or even sanctioned the hit.

Caso was he'll bent on revenge for that
That was the main reason he came after Gotti

Everyone one would have been better off had Gotti clipped Ruggerio
He died of cancer if he had the choice probably would have preferred two in the back of the head also Sammy, never knowing it was coming.

Sorry the hit on Gas was Unsanctioned by the Gambino's
At that time Gas was UB I believe of the Lucheese's

Gas killed everyone he thought was in on the hit.

He had a ton of balls bombing the Gambino social club killing there U.B.

It really is amazing with all the shit back then how the families did not go to war with each other.

All the treachery and treason back and forth


You had Gotti and c/o tried to whack out Gas, and take over the Colombo and Decav families.
Played a big part in starting the war.

You had Gas taking out Gambimbo heirarchy
You had Chin pinning up with Gas also plotting to kill Gotti

Gas killing everyone in his family...

The only one that wa.ckear was Chin.
He was chosen as boss and had his whole borgata loyal to him.

And this is why the genovese family are always the strongest
They are well organize and loyal (less then 10 rats ) and not public

I dont know anything about Billotti
He was.picked becaus Castallano knew that he was going to lose atleast one of the two I cases against him and and was going to go away for life.

So Billotti was his way of controlling the family from the inside it was someone he trusted to be loyal.

Remember Ruggerio who was really really close tried to take out Gas, it was an in sanctioned hit.

Gas didn t know where Gotti stood on that hit.

Gotti should have killed Ruggerio for what he did.

Because he didn't it appeared that he either k we about or even sanctioned the hit.

Caso was he'll bent on revenge for that
That was the main reason he came after Gotti

Everyone one would have been better off had Gotti clipped Ruggerio
He died of cancer if he had the choice probably would have preferred two in the back of the head ala Sammy, never knowing it was coming.

Yes
The rats take the admin off the streets and they are forced to put anyone in an admin position and that effects the whole family.

They have been effected less by rats no doubt.

The Gambino's have been real good with rats lately as well.
They have really stabilized their leadership

The Sicilians have kept everything under ground.
The Gambino's hot hurt with S
Sammy after that they had a bunch of rats

After that died down they have been pretty good I think

I don't think Bilotti was @ the wake...we would know the details by now..

@Bensonhurst...in your opinion do you think a family is better off having Zips in the administration based on people flipping since the Gambinos have had Sicilians at the top for some time now

Castellano was on trial with the Demeo crew
And either got indicted or was about to get indicted on the commission case

No way he was beating two separate cases
Against the feds back then
The cases the feds brought were tight they would build them for many years back then

now a days they have a rat or two and just over charge and indict
As a defendant if you go to trial and lose you will get 40 years

They will offer a plea deal to you for maybe 5-6 years.

So you have to be CRAZY to take that chance

I think Johns mind was made up way before Neil died and Paul did not show up to the funeral

That was a blatant show of disrespect at that time the family was divided into two factions and for the old timers, not showing up to the funeral turned alot of them off, this was the perfect time for Gotti to strike

As Paul'a popularity at that point was probably the lowest it ever was.

I don't think Paul got killed because he did not show up to the funeral
It was the perfect excuse for Gotti to make his move.

Not sure about Billotti showing up to the wake

Sonny I think so
Admin hasn-t been touched in probably 10 years.
You also are not seeing bull shit petty nickel and dime rackets being exposed.
When was the last major Gambino indictment that did any sort of damage to the family.

Who was the last rat that hurt them?

Nobody really even knows what they are up to and who really is the boss?
It keeps changing...

Maybe they are rotating to keep the heat off
If that's the plan it appears to be working...

Bensonhurst I totally agree with you now would you say the Gambinos last major blow to them was back in 2011 on the Mafia Take Down bullshit the Feds pulled ?

btw where were chicago in all of this ?
and another question :
did the chin knew paul and gotti had a beef and paul is planning on whack him ? i guess he did, so why wouldn't he help paul kill him faster and be over with it ?
i can only think he knew paul is about to get a life in prison so he didn't care, and he didn't ever think john would have the balls to whack a boss.
it's funny that with the castellano hit there is an never ending questions haha

Sonny,

Yeah you are right 2011 they took out the boss the u.b. and a couple of captains.

Vernace was taken off the streets for good and trucchio got 10 year
Corrozzo got like 5 years I think

That was definitely a hit

I don't think that was a MAJOR hit

I see....now this bust occurred when the Gambinos shifted to the Zips and had Italian Dom as AB am I correct and then some years after that we were all introduced to Frankie Boy Cali.... As much as I love seeing an American born mob boss succeed im starting to realize that the Zips are much more dependable as for keeping your mouth shut.

I know this is kinda off the topic but real quick I've always been curious in the movie American Gangster when Frank Lucas was dealing with the Italians and Heroin who was Armand Assante suppose to be portraying in real life or was his character not based off of anybody in real life?

I'm pretty sure he was based on Carmine Tramunti

Ok I see so Frank Lucas had a relationship with the Luccheses and not the Gambinos

Sonny I don't remember the last ZIP that flipped??
Do you?

No I agree....now I'm curious if there is even enough Zips to even maybe put a list together of all that has... But I do agree I can't not think of any to be honest

Of just the Zips
Probably more unknown than known

I agree I would of never contemplated that If you hadn't of said that haha

There seems to lists for everyone and everything You sure they don't have one
??
Listed as a ZIP faction
?

I have never kept a list of zips that have ratted to be honest I wish I would like to put one together

3 that come to mind are ... 1 . Tomasso Buscetta , 2 . Luigi Ronsisvalle , 3 . Salvatore Spatola all were involved with the Pizza Connection case in the mid 80's. Spatola gave up Patsy Conte regarding the shooting of a PC defendant in Greenwich Village (Pietro Alfano) in 87, then recanted. No such thing as half a Rat.

Sonny;

Pertaining to your previous post Cali is from Sicily isn't he?

as far as i know he was born in the us
his parents are from Sicily

I thought he was born in Sicily

Anyway we can look that up?

he was born in the US, Dom Cefalu in Sicily..

I assumed he came from Sicily when I first read he was a Zip so now do we consider him a Zip still I'm guessing not...eiether way I like Frank Cali a lot based on his role he's played so far and if anybody would ask I would say Cali would not flip

Ok thanx

The hit was a testament to Castellano’s indecisiveness. They would’ve never had the audacity to stage a coup during Carlo’s reign. I’ve always wondered why Paul didn’t eliminate a strong portion of the blue collar wing. You won’t survive in the streets without fear and respect.

in fairness paul was under a microscope at time so eliminating a bunch of guys from the bergin crew would of put more heat on him. Plus Paul didnt anticipate frankie and sammy jumping ship. Without those two i doubt the hit ever goes down. Paul would of went to jail

@JCrusher; I agree. If Frankie, and Sammy didn't turn on Paul; The hit most would have never went down. Hit would have also likely been avoided if Roy, and Gaggi were still on the streets.

flip for what crime? no murders, no tons of heroin.