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Bufalino family remnants?

Posted By: Flushing

Bufalino family remnants? - 02/18/18 08:39 AM

According to an entry on wikipedia, there is still a small bufalino presence.

Current status
"According to James Kanavy, a former Pennsylvania Crime Commission investigator, there is still a small presence in Northeastern Pennsylvania of mafia activity."

Thoughts?
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/18/18 05:56 PM

Probably New York or Phily guys shaking down bookies in the area.
Posted By: PhillyBilly

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/19/18 10:55 PM

I am def interested in this situation... whats is Big Billy D'Elia doing these days?
Posted By: Lefty_Ruggerio

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 01:13 AM

I live in the area. Some swear there is still some form of mob activity around, hard to say. I am unsure what D'Elia has been up to anymore, retired or keeping a low profile. I know D'Elia's son lives in Russell Bufalino's old house in Kingston.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 04:02 AM

Notice how that part of the article isn't sourced?

I don't know who does it, but most defunct mob families on Wikipedia are still listed as active, with little passages at the bottom explaining their current position. Kansas City, Pittsburgh, L.A., etc. There is no real evidence to back it up. For a while that Cosa Nostra News chart was on the Buffalo family's Wikipedia page until it was thankfully deleted.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 04:36 AM

Are you saying Kansas city is defunct?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 05:51 AM

Yes Big Fella. Do you disagree?
Posted By: Belmont

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 02:58 PM

KC doesnt currently have any structured LCN at all. The only active cities are NY, NJ, Philly, Boston/ Prov, chicago, and to a certain extent, detroit,
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Belmont
KC doesnt currently have any structured LCN at all. The only active cities are NY, NJ, Philly, Boston/ Prov, chicago, and to a certain extent, detroit,


100% agree, Belmont.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 06:14 PM

I don't know enough to disagree, everywhere I look has them with a functioning structure, and people that live in Kansas city say thier still around, but who knows. What are your evidence that there defunct?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 06:39 PM

Are you saying Anthony civella jr is not apart of a functioning Mafia?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 07:37 PM

You guys are delusional as usual. BUFFALO HAS A STRUCTURED AND VIABLE FAMILY.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You guys are delusional as usual. BUFFALO HAS A STRUCTURED AND VIABLE FAMILY.


Got any evidence?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 08:38 PM

Your making the accusations nickyfromtampa, the burden of proof is on you...what do you base your evidence in? I say Kansas city is still active, thier like Detroit alot of people in that outfit is related so it might gives the appearance that thier in active
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 09:39 PM

Yea read all the news articles that just came out a few months ago that has the FBI and RCMP acknowledging its structure after the huge bust
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 09:55 PM

I'm sure there's bookies everywhere that were once members or connected to so called defunct families. .
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/20/18 11:39 PM

What makes a don decide that he's not inducting anymore members into his family?
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 01:02 AM

Everyone around him doing 100 years a piece in federal prison, for starters. That's one reason a lot of families went defunct.

(ESPN 30 for 30 music...)

What if I told you ..... 'dis thing' has always been dependent on authorities that were on the take?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 01:13 AM

I would believe it...but what if you have soldiers and talent on the streets and the boss just close ranks, like the traffic ante family, they just stopped making people
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 01:30 AM

I seem to recall it being disputed whether Tampa really had much membership after the Cuba fiasco. If they did, however, then I agree. Good question. Could a boss tank their own family and basically render their made members button-less? Would they get the option of transferring?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 04:16 AM

Is it possible new York ordered currently defunct families to close thier books?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 04:17 AM

Arguably, difronzo was tanking Chicago before the change
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 04:29 AM

Again, how would the DeCavs still exist if NY were ordering dead weight to let themselves die out?

I say as long as Jersey still has a family, there is at least some respect for the Commission.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 04:47 AM

But how do you explain the other defunct families?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by thebigfella
Your making the accusations nickyfromtampa, the burden of proof is on you...what do you base your evidence in? I say Kansas city is still active, thier like Detroit alot of people in that outfit is related so it might gives the appearance that thier in active


The FBI has declared (as reported by Niagara Falls reporter Mike Hudson) that the family is dead. The city's Mafia squad was scrapped a long time ago. http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html
(There are other articles which back this up: Hudson is a dedicated Buffalo mafia researcher who did an obituary every time a high-ranking guy died, e.g. Joe Todaro).
By 1998, the Buffalo mob was "withering" as confirmed by the feds and the Buffalo News, reeling from federal convictions. http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/
The family's last bust was in 2002, of Sonny Nicoletti Jr. Frank BiFulco was convicted in 2003 of arson as well.

Here is a well-researched article by the Buffalo News which backs this up quite nicely:
http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/


I understand the concept of "burden of proof," but I think that if someone is going to accuse people of being delusional for not accepting a mob family exists, they need to back that up. Especially since there is not any real evidence to back up that there is a structure/hierarchy/chain of command. No, the 2017 bust is not proof that the family has a structure/hierarchy/chain of command. All the feds and RCMP stated was that there were members of the Todaro crime family arrested in Canada. Not the United States. Since the Canadian wing of the family was declared cut-off from the U.S. mob following the 1997 assassination of John 'Johnny Pops' Papaglia, I assume that whatever capos/soldiers were left there joined the arms of the (far more powerful) Canadian mafia families in Ontario, Hamilton & elsewhere. That has been seen with other mobsters, like the Violi brothers who were arrested in 2017 in a fentanyl bust. Their grandfather was a powerful Hamilton-based Buffalo mobster Giacomo Luppino, but the RCMP has confirmed that the brothers worked with the Hamilton 'ndrangheta.

If you have any evidence which proves me wrong, Rooster, I'd be happy to hear it.
Posted By: furio_from_naples

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by thebigfella
Are you saying Anthony civella jr is not apart of a functioning Mafia?


http://gangsterreport.com/state-of-the-syndicate-the-kansas-city-mafia-today/


State Of The Syndicate: The Kansas City Mafia Today
Scott Burnstein

The Italian mafia in Kansas City is a small, quiet crime family, probably on its’ last legs with only a few loose remnants of a time when the syndicate operated on a much larger scale and held national prominence decades ago, per exclusive Gangster Report sources. These sources place membership in the K.C. mob at “a dozen people or less” and claim its rackets mostly consist of gambling and loan sharking with a small amount of dabbling in extortion scams, primarily within the sex, drug and strip club industry.

Law enforcement in Kansas City consider “old timers” John (Johnny Joe) Sciortino and Peter (Las Vegas Pete) Simone, the crime family’s boss and underboss, respectively. Both date back to the once-powerful Civella mob and are convicted felons. Simone, 70, has been the K.C. mafia’s No. 2 man since the early 1990s, controlling all the syndicate’s gambling interests. The 72-year old Sciortino, a one-time driver and protégé of his predecessor, Anthony (Tony Ripe) Civella, became don when Tony Ripe passed away of a heart attack in 2006. Johnny Joe had been Civella’s street boss, senior juice-loan specialist and main go-between for the duration of Tony Ripe’s tenure on the throne.

Tony Ripe Civella was the nephew of legendary Midwest Godfather Nick Civella and son of his less-refined sibling and strong arm, Carl (Corky) Civella. His brother-in-law was the Civellas’ top lieutenant, the highly-feared, Carl (Tuffy) DeLuna. Nick and Corky Civella were at the center of the American mafia’s lordship over Las Vegas in the 1960s and 70s, using Tuffy DeLuna as their point man.

The K.C. mob traditionally doesn’t recognize the post of consigliere, but the FBI in Missouri believes Frank DeLuna, Tuffy’s younger brother and a longtime local produce peddler, serves Sciortino in a de-facto consigliere capacity and is his No. 1 advisor. Tuffy DeLuna died of natural causes in 2008.

Other powerful figures in what’s left of the Kansas City mafia include among them, William (Little Willie) Cammisano, Jr. Peter (P.J.) Ribaste and Vince Civella, per sources. Little Willie Cammisano is the son of deceased syndicate don William (Willie the Rat) Cammisano and a suspect in a number of unsolved Kansas City gangland slayings. Ribaste, a strip-club owner and veteran Pete Simone operative, spends portions of the year in Las Vegas. Vince Civella is Tony Ripe’s son. If the term “captain or capo” is thrown around with these three individuals or any others, it’s purely ceremonial and doesn’t denote the fact that they lead a crew of soldiers, according to sources.

Willie the Rat Cammisano was the Civellas’ chief enforcer and hitman before assuming the reins as boss from Nick Civella upon Civella dying of cancer in 1983. According to federal informant files, Willie the Rat dispatched his son on multiple murder assignments, starting in the 1970s when he was Civella’s street boss and into the 1980s when he ascended to don, a role Little Willie allegedly cherished with tremendous pride. The younger Cammisano and Vince Civella were convicted together in a 2010 bookmaking bust.

In terms of a youth factor in the ranks of the modern-day K.C. mob, the local FBI office is said to keep tabs on Joseph (Joe Pete) Simone, the 43-year old son of Las Vegas Pete Simone and a sometime actor and former minor league baseball player. Joe Pete was held in contempt of court in 1991 for refusing to testify in front of a federal grand jury probing bookmaking and mafia activity in Missouri and was convicted of possessing gambling records in 1992. He pitched in the Houston Astros organization and was acquitted of extortion charges in 2001. Currently, Joe Pete is starring in an internet tv show entitled “Kill’em All,” about a fictional gangland war in Kansas City fought between the Italian and Irish mobs.

One source asserts Joe Pete is a “made guy,” and received his button in the syndicate’s last making ceremony which took place in the late 1990s or early 2000s. Another source with intimate knowledge of FBI inquiries into Missouri mob affairs over the past four decades reveals Joe Pete was a “person of interest” in the Harold Ash murder investigation almost 20 years ago.
Joseph (Joe Pete) Simone

Joseph (Joe Pete) Simone

Ash, a reputed bookie in the Kansas City area, was slain on November 27, 1996, gunned down in front of his suburban home after winning several thousand dollars at a nearby Harrah’s riverboat casino. An FBI document cites an unidentified figure wearing a hooded sweatshirt matching Joe Pete Simone’s description, flanked by two men matching descriptions of mob associates Louis (Cuban Louie) Lerida and Timmy Sears, being seen on casino surveillance following Ash, 64, from the casino to the parking garage. Joe Pete himself denies being a member of the mafia and any criminal wrongdoing since his last conviction. Nobody has ever been charged in the Ash murder case.

Johnny Joe Sciortino, said to be “stepping back” lately in his day-to-day duties running the Kansas City mob, and Pete Simone had their names surface in the 1990 murder of federal witness Larry Strada, a suburban K.C. bar owner who was shot dead in his driveway after appearing in front of a grand jury investigating sports gambling in the area. John Mandacina, a K.C. mafia soldier and Irish hood Patrick McGuire were imprisoned for the crime. The pair met with Johnny Joe and Las Vegas Pete at Simone’s Avenue Social Club in the hours prior to Strada’s slaying. Simone was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in Mandacina and McGuire’s first-degree homicide indictment.

Sciortino and syndicate elder statesman Frank DeLuna can often be found nights at Jasper’s, a popular Italian restaurant in Kansas City. The Simones main hangout is Gilhooley’s, a tavern and grill more in a dive-bar design and rumored to be silently owned by Las Vegas Pete.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 02:55 PM

I disagree with one thing, there's no such thing as a ceremonial tittle in lcn, either your involved, semi-involved or retired, that's it! If somebody has a tittle of capo in lcn either they have a crew or thier direct with the boss...and it doesn't account for the young people that was made that people know nothing about. We don't know everybody ligambi's made or everyone Merlino has made since he's been free. People on this board said Detroit was defunct and thier titles was merely ceremonial, and I argued against that also
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/21/18 04:15 PM

Nowhere in the history of lcn has anyone ever held a ceremonial tittle, so I don't know where you guys get that from
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/22/18 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by thebigfella
Your making the accusations nickyfromtampa, the burden of proof is on you...what do you base your evidence in? I say Kansas city is still active, thier like Detroit alot of people in that outfit is related so it might gives the appearance that thier in active


The FBI has declared (as reported by Niagara Falls reporter Mike Hudson) that the family is dead. The city's Mafia squad was scrapped a long time ago. http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html
(There are other articles which back this up: Hudson is a dedicated Buffalo mafia researcher who did an obituary every time a high-ranking guy died, e.g. Joe Todaro).
By 1998, the Buffalo mob was "withering" as confirmed by the feds and the Buffalo News, reeling from federal convictions. http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/
The family's last bust was in 2002, of Sonny Nicoletti Jr. Frank BiFulco was convicted in 2003 of arson as well.

Here is a well-researched article by the Buffalo News which backs this up quite nicely:
http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/


I understand the concept of "burden of proof," but I think that if someone is going to accuse people of being delusional for not accepting a mob family exists, they need to back that up. Especially since there is not any real evidence to back up that there is a structure/hierarchy/chain of command. No, the 2017 bust is not proof that the family has a structure/hierarchy/chain of command. All the feds and RCMP stated was that there were members of the Todaro crime family arrested in Canada. Not the United States. Since the Canadian wing of the family was declared cut-off from the U.S. mob following the 1997 assassination of John 'Johnny Pops' Papaglia, I assume that whatever capos/soldiers were left there joined the arms of the (far more powerful) Canadian mafia families in Ontario, Hamilton & elsewhere. That has been seen with other mobsters, like the Violi brothers who were arrested in 2017 in a fentanyl bust. Their grandfather was a powerful Hamilton-based Buffalo mobster Giacomo Luppino, but the RCMP has confirmed that the brothers worked with the Hamilton 'ndrangheta.

If you have any evidence which proves me wrong, Rooster, I'd be happy to hear it.



Rooster?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/22/18 09:21 PM

I will conduct my own independent research and report back
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/22/18 09:39 PM

Yes, in the article it also mentions that it has a chance to come back. 98 was 20 years ago, a lot of things change. Buffalos undergoing a redevelopment renaissance. The local 210 was never cleaned up fully nor was the local 91, Fino even admits it in his book, go online and read whos in charge. The build of 2 casinos in the last 5 years beings in automatic rackets. The rebirth of relationships in Canada, etc. etc., etc. Go back to the huge thread about Buffalo and youll gain some insight. Theres a hierarchy whether you believe it or not. Just because an FBI squad is removed doesnt mean racket control and structure dont exist. Weaker than their heyday of course, but stronger than theyve been in 15 years. Recent busts just mean priority shifts for law enforcement and little violence, money is still being made in many areas and tribute is paid.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/22/18 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yes, in the article it also mentions that it has a chance to come back. 98 was 20 years ago, a lot of things change. Buffalos undergoing a redevelopment renaissance. The local 210 was never cleaned up fully nor was the local 91, Fino even admits it in his book, go online and read whos in charge. The build of 2 casinos in the last 5 years beings in automatic rackets. The rebirth of relationships in Canada, etc. etc., etc. Go back to the huge thread about Buffalo and youll gain some insight. Theres a hierarchy whether you believe it or not. Just because an FBI squad is removed doesnt mean racket control and structure dont exist. Weaker than their heyday of course, but stronger than theyve been in 15 years. Recent busts just mean priority shifts for law enforcement and little violence, money is still being made in many areas and tribute is paid.


You have yet to provide any sources/proof.

Also could you link me the thread you're talking about?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/22/18 11:18 PM

SEARCH THE THREADS HERE WITH KEY WORDS WE HAVE BEEN USING. GOOGLE FINOS ADMISSIONS. GOOGLE LOCAL 210 AND LOOK AT THEIR WEBSITE. GOOGLE CIMINELLI AND PROJECTS IN BUFFALO. GOOGLE. JUST LIKE YOU GOOGLED THOSE ARTICLES YOU POSTED.

IF AFTER ALL THAT YOURE STILL CONFUSED, THEN WELL ALL JUST ADMIT THAT YOUR RIGHT AND THERE IS NO ACTIVE CREWS OR STRUCTURE IN BUFFALO SO WE CAN All sleep easier tonight.
Posted By: SC

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/22/18 11:44 PM

Rooster - Please don't post in all caps.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/23/18 03:06 AM

Nice post rooster
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
SEARCH THE THREADS HERE WITH KEY WORDS WE HAVE BEEN USING. GOOGLE FINOS ADMISSIONS. GOOGLE LOCAL 210 AND LOOK AT THEIR WEBSITE. GOOGLE CIMINELLI AND PROJECTS IN BUFFALO. GOOGLE. JUST LIKE YOU GOOGLED THOSE ARTICLES YOU POSTED.

IF AFTER ALL THAT YOURE STILL CONFUSED, THEN WELL ALL JUST ADMIT THAT YOUR RIGHT AND THERE IS NO ACTIVE CREWS OR STRUCTURE IN BUFFALO SO WE CAN All sleep easier tonight.


Rooster. You criticized me for citing a 20-year-old article, saying "a lot can change in 20 years." Yet you cite Ron Fino, even though he flipped two decades ago. Yes, Fino thinks it's possible that the FBI cleanup of Local 210 didn't go far enough. But the article in which he said that also notes: "While admitting he has no direct information about current wrongdoing in the local, Fino said he is skeptical of the Justice Department's claims that mob influences were totally removed from Local 210 and the Laborers international."
Here is another excerpt from that same article:
"Local 210 is now an aggressive but clean union that works hard to represent its members, according to Hill and James C. Logan, who represents 25 area contractors as executive vice president of the Construction Industry Employers Association. Both described Capitano, 46, as a tough but honest labor leader. Two other local contractors reached out to The News to speak in favor of Capitano.
Retired FBI Special Agent John "Jack" McDonnell said he believes the government cleanup of Local 210 and the Laborers - with Fino's help - was a major success. From 2000 until 2006, McDonnell oversaw all of Local 210's operations as a court-appointed liaison officer to the local.
"I know that Ron Fino supplied interesting and accurate information about how unions worked and how organized crime infiltrated Local 210," McDonnell said. "As for Sam Capitano, he was a very active, very vocal union guy who did fight against the takeover. He's an old-style, combative guy, but I have no information that he is involved with the mob.""

"The rebirth of relationships in Canada." There is no evidence that the Buffalo Mafia has reached back out to Canada. The only evidence you have to go on is the fact that some guys in Canada that were arrested were cited as being members of the "Todaro crime family" although Canadian LE has not released the names of said members. Mafia members from certain families have been arrested well over the families themselves were made defunct. A likely explanation is that this was the case for those "Todaro crime family" members considering the relationship between the Canadian wing of the Buffalo mob was pretty much severed in the 1990s.

Just because Buffalo is undergoing a redevelopment renaissance does not mean the Mafia is involved. Simple as that.

Just because 2 casinos were built in the city does not mean the Mafia is involved. If anything, legitimate casinos hurt the mob nowadays, since it cuts into their own rackets. The heydey of the mob's infiltration of Vegas does not happen anymore, and it would certainly not happen in Buffalo.
Posted By: WhackWhack

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 06:41 AM

There is no mafia in Buffalo. The old timers are all dead or dying like Calzone Falzone, Lead Pipe etc. butchie bifocals and Bobby snowball are getting old. There is no talent to draw from in Buffalo. It's a small city. This isn't NYC. Even if it was relaxed as just having an Italian Surname/father, where are you finding young ambitious money hungry young males of Italian descent ? Going to school or working legit that's what, not join a dead end family. There is little $ in Buffalo now a days. Who would honestly kick up in their right mind now a days? Like some 20 something is going to give a sizeable nut every week to his capo he hardly knows for what reason ? This isn't the 70s or 80s, there are virtually no mob hits in America anymore period. What was there, Meldish 5 years Ago? Canadian mafia have more whacking.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 03:03 PM

Ok, I believe you guys. Thanks for clearing everything up.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 06:15 PM

So does this mean your sleeping easier tonight rooster?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 06:25 PM

Italian population in Buffalo is 149,003, the Mafia didn't just run Buffalo but also the surrounding areas, just from bookmaking and loan sharkingwhen was buffalo's last making ceremony
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 06:25 PM

When was buffalo's last making ceremony
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 07:20 PM

Yes, I dont think Ill wake up once in the middle of the night. Last known ceremony was in early 2000s, James Feliciano was made in it, dont know who else possibly. This is just my opinion, but I think its important to understand the Canadian influence currently, especially Hamilton/Niagara connection to Buffalo/Niagara and realize that making ceremonies mean less outside of New York City and even in New York City in the current era.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 09:55 PM

Let them believe what they want rooster. They are not from around the area, they don't know anything. They think every family in the country are a bunch of giacchiarones like in Philly or new York, where everyone knows everything. People in Detroit and Buffalo know how to keep their mouth shut and keep a real low profile, if you don't live in the area you won't hear a thing. The Buffalo guys are now alot like the Canadians in Ontario, they are a different breed.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 11:25 PM

Latest big bust shows the connection but technically there was busts 02, 03, 05, 09, 12
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/27/18 11:30 PM

According to the last bust it's something like a buffalo - Canadian hybrid mafia
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Latest big bust shows the connection but technically there was busts 02, 03, 05, 09, 12


Which busts were the 2012, 2009 and 2005 ones? Not saying you're wrong, but I don't recall any.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by thebigfella
According to the last bust it's something like a buffalo - Canadian hybrid mafia


By the last bust, do you mean the 2017 Bonanno bust? I seriously hope not...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Moscone65
Let them believe what they want rooster. They are not from around the area, they don't know anything.


If that's the case, I suppose I'll start claiming that the Trafficante crime family has a fully functioning hierarchy with 60+ made members. Hey, since I'm from the area I guess no one can question me.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 02:13 AM

Really? Tampa is really going strong then. I remember that bust in 2015 involving the pirates near St. Pete Beach, that was crazy.
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 02:47 AM

love clearwater and dunedin.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 03:08 AM

I meant 2010 not 2009
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I meant 2010 not 2009


What was the 2010 bust though? As well as 2012 and 2005.

Also, I was just kidding around about the Tampa mob. They simply just stopped making people in Tampa in the 1990s, and the Miami crew was taken over by an Irish guy.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 03:33 AM

Cohen in 2010. One of Nicolettis close friends.

Answer this, when do you believe Hamilton stopped answering to Buffalo? This will answer all your speculation you have.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Cohen in 2010. One of Nicolettis close friends.

Answer this, when do you believe Hamilton stopped answering to Buffalo? This will answer all your speculation you have.


Sorry, but could you give any more insight into the Cohen arrest? E.g. what was he arrested for, news articles on the bust. Also, what are the other busts you mentioned?

I have not seen evidence of a Buffalo-Canada connection in over 20 years. Probably ended with the assassination of Johnny Pops Papalia.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 03:56 AM

Search the internet. The Nicoletti bust featured his friend from Welland, Ontario. They are a joint crime family, several Canadian members were at Falzones funeral. Do you consider the Ciminelli bust a connection at all? What do you think the younger members do? They answer to no one right? Tribute is paid and people are still in line with a hierarchy, sorry, its just not deabeli

So you believe they stopped answering to Buffalo in 1998 or earlier? Wrong

Move this thread, finally, to the Buffalo thread if you want to keep talking about it.

Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Search the internet. The Nicoletti bust featured his friend from Welland, Ontario. They are a joint crime family, several Canadian members were at Falzones funeral. Do you consider the Ciminelli bust a connection at all? What do you think the younger members do? They answer to no one right? Tribute is paid and people are still in line with a hierarchy, sorry, its just not deabeli

So you believe they stopped answering to Buffalo in 1998 or earlier? Wrong

Move this thread, finally, to the Buffalo thread if you want to keep talking about it.



I have searched the internet and have not found anything related to a Buffalo family bust from 2012, 2010 or 2005. If you could provide some links to said busts, I would be very grateful. I am not going to say that these busts don't exist, but I'm truly puzzled as to why you won't send me any articles about them.

Do you have any evidence to that "several Canadian members were at Falzone's funeral." Again, I have searched the internet and haven't found any information to support that claim. I'm sure you have the evidence but I'm afraid I couldn't find it from 5-10 minutes of google searching.

I don't really consider the Ciminelli bust a connection at all. Most construction bigwigs in Buffalo were associated with the mob in the late 20th century, because of the Buffalo mob's widespread union control. Ciminelli is no exception and just because he was involved in fraud in 2016 does not mean the mob.

"What do you think the younger members do?" There aren't any younger (made) Buffalo guys. The youngest confirmed made guy (to the best of my knowledge) is Russ Carcone, who is 63. Also, no doubt there are younger guys committing crimes. But what makes you think they have this burning desire to pay tribute to somebody?

Also, since I'm new to this forum, I don't know how to move this thread to the other Buffalo thread. Maybe a moderator or somebody could help me.
Posted By: WhackWhack

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by thebigfella
Italian population in Buffalo is 149,003, the Mafia didn't just run Buffalo but also the surrounding areas, just from bookmaking and loan sharkingwhen was buffalo's last making ceremony

Maybe the Italian Population in the Buffalo-Niagara Region but definitely not the city of Buffalo, which has a population of under 300,000. I live in NB right near the old Italian Fest. During the 90's there was definitely a known mafia presence in the area but today there is almost zero. Like mentioned before what's benefit does bing connected to the Magaddino family and having to pay tribute give a young Italian American in joining besides being known to LE even sooner? Buffalos family is nothing compared to the 5 families so if your about to say "gain access to the family's loansharking $ at half a point to put out there" or something I just highly doubt the family is functioning let alone thriving. Of course there are soldiers and associates still active in crime in WNY. It's just that there are probably very few under the age of 50.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 02/28/18 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by WhackWhack
Originally Posted by thebigfella
Italian population in Buffalo is 149,003, the Mafia didn't just run Buffalo but also the surrounding areas, just from bookmaking and loan sharkingwhen was buffalo's last making ceremony

Maybe the Italian Population in the Buffalo-Niagara Region but definitely not the city of Buffalo, which has a population of under 300,000. I live in NB right near the old Italian Fest. During the 90's there was definitely a known mafia presence in the area but today there is almost zero. Like mentioned before what's benefit does bing connected to the Magaddino family and having to pay tribute give a young Italian American in joining besides being known to LE even sooner? Buffalos family is nothing compared to the 5 families so if your about to say "gain access to the family's loansharking $ at half a point to put out there" or something I just highly doubt the family is functioning let alone thriving. Of course there are soldiers and associates still active in crime in WNY. It's just that there are probably very few under the age of 50.


Good post WhackWhack. Of course, whilst I don't believe that the Buffalo family as an entity is still active, I wouldn't dispute you if you said Frank Bifulco or Russell Carcone are still active in crime.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/01/18 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Search the internet. The Nicoletti bust featured his friend from Welland, Ontario. They are a joint crime family, several Canadian members were at Falzones funeral. Do you consider the Ciminelli bust a connection at all? What do you think the younger members do? They answer to no one right? Tribute is paid and people are still in line with a hierarchy, sorry, its just not deabeli

So you believe they stopped answering to Buffalo in 1998 or earlier? Wrong

Move this thread, finally, to the Buffalo thread if you want to keep talking about it.



I have searched the internet and have not found anything related to a Buffalo family bust from 2012, 2010 or 2005. If you could provide some links to said busts, I would be very grateful. I am not going to say that these busts don't exist, but I'm truly puzzled as to why you won't send me any articles about them.

Do you have any evidence to that "several Canadian members were at Falzone's funeral." Again, I have searched the internet and haven't found any information to support that claim. I'm sure you have the evidence but I'm afraid I couldn't find it from 5-10 minutes of google searching.

I don't really consider the Ciminelli bust a connection at all. Most construction bigwigs in Buffalo were associated with the mob in the late 20th century, because of the Buffalo mob's widespread union control. Ciminelli is no exception and just because he was involved in fraud in 2016 does not mean the mob.

"What do you think the younger members do?" There aren't any younger (made) Buffalo guys. The youngest confirmed made guy (to the best of my knowledge) is Russ Carcone, who is 63. Also, no doubt there are younger guys committing crimes. But what makes you think they have this burning desire to pay tribute to somebody?

Also, since I'm new to this forum, I don't know how to move this thread to the other Buffalo thread. Maybe a moderator or somebody could help me.


Can anyone help with merging the forums like Rooster suggested?
Posted By: cookcounty

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/02/18 04:30 AM

It aint dead until the last remaining member dies
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/02/18 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by cookcounty
It aint dead until the last remaining member dies


The organization is dead but some members are not. Simple as that.
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/04/18 09:02 AM

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=898887#Post898887
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/04/18 03:46 PM

The last post on that form was back in 2016! Are you guys serious? Should we create a single thread for each crime family???
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/05/18 10:44 PM

I take some issues with Rooster's posts in the 2016 thread. I won't take what Giacomo Vacari says into account because he is an exposed & admitted liar.

"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition." - There is no evidence of this happening, and if BPD and NYS police have been stalking mobsters continuously for over a decade, there would be at least one bust now. Also, I don't recall LE ever saying the mob is still active in Buffalo, and news reports have cited LE as saying the opposite.

"Per FBI standards they may be dead because they dont need to go after them at a federal level and resources go after the big drug suppliers there (Sinola) but per local and state law enforcement the family is still watched and several members are under surveillance. This is directly from law enforcement's mouth." - This is not directly from law enforcement's mouth. Where did LE say this? Give me a link. And don't just say that a cop told you in a bar one night.

"I know what goes on here and I have sources that are more than credible." - Yeah right. Why should anybody believe you? Nothing you've said has been proven right.

@Sonny Blackstein said this on the 2016 thread, which sums it up quite nicely:
"I also think it's suspicious that 'Rooster' who has 'street' knowledge claims not to know any members personally yet seems to know the hierarchy of a secret society and when they have making ceremonies, what crews are active etc etc " - That is an interesting point since if your sources were all law enforcement, and law enforcement knows about this secret society's making ceremonies, rackets, etc. why haven't there been any busts. All these cops are telling you stuff about the Buffalo mob and are illustrating their involvement in organized crime. Why hasn't there been a single bust in over 15 years??? Also, you have yet to explain anything about the "recent busts" you mentioned, even though I have asked you numerous times about them.

"That making ceremony was talked about in various circles many times over for years, this stuff isn't a secret." - Give me a break.

"Sources? ok no problem, Ill make sure to get notarized affidavits from all of them and possible see if they'll take a lie detector test that I can show you the results of because of the belief that you validating my stories means something to me." - I don't see why you're being sarcastic. It's perfectly acceptable to ask for sources. Otherwise anyone can bullshit.

By the way, you seem to have no problem citing Ron Fino as a source on the family's current matters since he mentioned 15+ years ago that the family had a chance of rebuilding and that the unions weren't fully cleaned up. But, as someone on the other thread mentioned, he posted this on his Facebook: http://buffalonews.com/2017/03/19/fbi-says-buffalos-mafia-family-ceased-operations/ which means he pretty much views the family as dead as well.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 04:30 AM

I totally understand and respect your decision to believe journalists over a bloggers. What else can I do than divulge what I believe to be factual? Would it make you feel better if I were to concede to your assumptions? Im confused as to what your real input is to this forum.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 04:34 AM

To me, in your rebuttals and refuting, I consider you to be full of crap. So what is the point? For me to try to prove to someone that the family is viable? I already gave this info two years ago. Its active and holds a hierarchy, as simple as that.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
To me, in your rebuttals and refuting, I consider you to be full of crap. So what is the point? For me to try to prove to someone that the family is viable? I already gave this info two years ago. Its active and holds a hierarchy, as simple as that.


I am punching holes in your story that I believe need to be addressed so that other people aren't misled. If you can prove that the family is still active, and you can address the points I have made, then we can give you the benefit of the doubt. This is a forum for discussion and if everyone was allowed to spout out whatever they want without being pressed for proof, then that's just anarchy.

If your story is 100% legit, then surely you can address the points I have made. It shouldn't be difficult. For example, what are the busts you cited? I have asked you numerous times and you choose to ignore that. How come your law enforcement sources a) know the whole hierarchy of the family, b) know the rough whereabouts of whose being made, c) what rackets are active, d) conducting surveillance on various members then why hasn't there a) been a bust or b) been any sort of statement to the press.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 10:19 AM

Fratello is the only made member still partially active. A few associates are still active, but there is no family there, unless you count Philadelphia.

The_Rooster, are you talking about Michael Wilson for the 2010 and 2012? He only rubbed shoulders with some of those members of Buffalo and they only knew him as George Possiodis, an alias. There is no proof that Giglia and Tavano were involved with Phantom Holdings.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 01:01 PM

Let's just wait for the violi trial
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 01:47 PM

Yes, lets wait for the Violi trial. I know things because I hear things, I am going by what I hear and what I believe to be factual, not simply journalists stories that you believe to be gospel and waiting on FBI to lie to the general public anyway so they can look like organized crime eradicating heroes to us. You really dont think law enforcement is keeping tabs on these guys, they still want to put Bifulco away for life for a bunch of old murders. You dont think that if a beat cop tells someone that then its probably the truth? Its not a secret organization, all of these guys have friends and hang arounds that talk, people in the community know who these guys are and what they do. There is younger guys that are definitely made like Feliciano and Cardinale. I already told you , the Cohen bust in 10 and the Wilson bust Giacomi just brought up, and not every bust has to have a high profile member attached to be considered an actual bust. Made members dont have to be charged in order to have benefitted from a crime/scam. The bust in '17 was a Buffalo bust no matter how you want to interpret the story. There still is union corruption at both the 210 and 91, and I believe at the grocers union ,there is still a huge book, there is still loans, there is still backdoor deals, fencing, etc., etc. and tribute is paid. They are not a huge priority for local law enforcement because they do not kill anymore and they are organized and quasi legit. Buffalo/Niagara has a lot of other issues to deal with like gangs, opiod epidemic, drug, gun, and sex trafficking through the borders. Like you said, this is a forum, Im just giving my input but to continually have to drive my points home and be considered a liar because a news article that is ridiculous and is a form of entertainment in itself contradicts my story is a waste of time. Detroit is active and very insulated, theres not a bust every couple of years, and some people claim that KC is active. The Mafia today is a different Mafia, its weakened obviously and Buffalo is probably the weakest, but it exists.

Another bust we can reference is the rich guy from Rochester who owned those restaurants and got caught with the huge book and hit with money laundering....can someone help me on that one?
Also, in the early 2010s, 2 reputed younger soldiers from Rochester got caught with drugs and guns in Ithaca. It was online at one point.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 02:54 PM

I think Pittsburgh is active
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 03:03 PM

Yes, for sure, along with Seattle and Denver
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 05:37 PM

If I can agree with you and say buffalo is active, how can you disagree with me on Pittsburgh? There's more evidence that Pittsburgh if functioning as an organized group than buffalo
Posted By: Flushing

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by thebigfella
Should we create a single thread for each crime family???


I believe we should. And pinned to the top maybe?

There seems to be two types of posters:

1) The "Ivy" posters who concentrate on FBI and credible LE sources, journalists,etc.
2) The "Pizzaboy" posters who have internal knowledge of what is going on.

Both of them are gone, and it's getting hard to discern real news from fake news... Just my opinion.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yes, lets wait for the Violi trial. I know things because I hear things, I am going by what I hear and what I believe to be factual, not simply journalists stories that you believe to be gospel and waiting on FBI to lie to the general public anyway so they can look like organized crime eradicating heroes to us. You really dont think law enforcement is keeping tabs on these guys, they still want to put Bifulco away for life for a bunch of old murders. You dont think that if a beat cop tells someone that then its probably the truth? Its not a secret organization, all of these guys have friends and hang arounds that talk, people in the community know who these guys are and what they do.

If it's really not a secret organization, and the community knows about then why hasn't the news picked up on it. According to you, everyone in the community as well as law enforcement knows about this not-so-secret society, and whose in charge, etc., but for some reason the area's leading newsmen have been declaring it dead? Something doesn't add up there.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

There is younger guys that are definitely made like Feliciano and Cardinale. I already told you , the Cohen bust in 10 and the Wilson bust Giacomi just brought up, and not every bust has to have a high profile member attached to be considered an actual bust. Made members dont have to be charged in order to have benefitted from a crime/scam.

I've tried googling this Cohen bust and have come up with nothing. Also I have seen nothing which indicates Michael Wilson was involved with the Mafia, either now or in the past. If you have any sort of evidence to back up the claim that Wilson is a mob associate or something similar, I'd love to hear it.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

The bust in '17 was a Buffalo bust no matter how you want to interpret the story. There still is union corruption at both the 210 and 91, and I believe at the grocers union ,there is still a huge book, there is still loans, there is still backdoor deals, fencing, etc., etc. and tribute is paid. They are not a huge priority for local law enforcement because they do not kill anymore and they are organized and quasi legit.

Wait a minute. They are still involved in union corruption, a huge book, loansharking, backdoor feals, fencing, etc..... but they are quasi-legit? Hmm. If the group was involved in this many illegal activities, then they would still be prominent on law enforcement's radar. And there would be busts.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Buffalo/Niagara has a lot of other iss3ues to deal with like gangs, opiod epidemic, drug, gun, and sex trafficking through the borders. Like you said, this is a forum, Im just giving my input but to continually have to drive my points home and be considered a liar because a news article that is ridiculous and is a form of entertainment in itself contradicts my story is a waste of time. Detroit is active and very insulated, theres not a bust every couple of years, and some people claim that KC is active. The Mafia today is a different Mafia, its weakened obviously and Buffalo is probably the weakest, but it exists.

I am not using that news article as the basis of my story that the Mafia is dead. I am just poking holes in your image of what the Buffalo mafia is. If you respond to the points I have made, then this forum can be a better place and we can gauge your reliability.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Another bust we can reference is the rich guy from Rochester who owned those restaurants and got caught with the huge book and hit with money laundering....can someone help me on that one?
Also, in the early 2010s, 2 reputed younger soldiers from Rochester got caught with drugs and guns in Ithaca. It was online at one point.


Can you provide any sort of news item whatsoever on the arrest of 2 Rochester soldiers? Even if the article doesn't reference their mob ties, there would be something in the news -
a drug and gun bust usually is. Also, what were their names? Surely, if they were soldiers, the feds and press would have jumped on that? Given that mob ties make a case a lot stronger and if the feds can prove a mob organization is still active they can guarantee more funding from Washington? And wouldn't the local media love to hear about a bust with mob ties?

Any links whatsoever to these arrests would be okay.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 06:40 PM

Thiers know articles on buffalo guys getting arrested, but Thiers alot of articles on Pittsburgh guys getting arrested
@flushing...pizza boy is a bad example, he told lies to protect his friends
Posted By: MeyerLansky

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Flushing
Originally Posted by thebigfella
Should we create a single thread for each crime family???


I believe we should. And pinned to the top maybe?

There seems to be two types of posters:

1) The "Ivy" posters who concentrate on FBI and credible LE sources, journalists,etc.
2) The "Pizzaboy" posters who have internal knowledge of what is going on.

Both of them are gone, and it's getting hard to discern real news from fake news... Just my opinion.


I miss lvy posts...
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 06:58 PM

I cant keep going back and forth. Ive given all my info. Articles dont mean everything, busts dont mean everything, quasi legit means that a guy like Todaro is legit but a guy like Bifulco isnt when looking at the family as a whole. The rackets are in tact. Law enforcements priorities have shifted. Does fencing 10k worth of goods a few times a year constitute a racket, does kick backs on contracts within the union? Do you really think theres not a huge book there? Who took over Nicolettis when he died? You said there are no young members, thats incorrect. You rely on a leading newsman to decide they are dead, fine. Thats your right. Cohen bust is online, he was close to Nicoletti and the Luccheses. Wilson is a mob associate, there are no articles or affidavits I have in my possession to help you believe. The two soldiers from Rochester that I reference as getting arrested is a fact. If the article isnt online it isnt online. The community knows who these guys are, my image is one of reliable sources that arent online or in fbi documents.

Again, lets wait and see what happens in the Violi case. Which WAS a Buffalo bust. Interpret it how youd like, we could say it was a transnational separate from any true Mafia structure ic we wanted to based on the articles but that wouldnt make any sense either.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 06:59 PM

I really havent payed attention to Pittsburgh, but they could have an active crew, its possible
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 09:10 PM

Alright @Rooster, I'll leave it as that. But a drugs/gun bust with two potential mob soldiers would definitely be online, and it would probably be addressed by the feds. So I think you're lying about that one.
Also, you have to remember that you started this argument by calling everyone delusional for not believing the Buffalo mob exists anymore.
Posted By: Friend_of_Henry

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/06/18 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I really havent payed attention to Pittsburgh, but they could have an active crew, its possible

WHAT???
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 06:05 AM

If you think about Buffalo was/is a very important supply route from Canada

During Prohibition it was used for liquor and shortly thereafter as as drug route you have the family that is set up on both sides to smuggle whatever

That alone is HUGE

That route is how alot of the families in the US are getting their drugs shipped in.

Why would they ever give that up?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
If you think about Buffalo was/is a very important supply route from Canada

During Prohibition it was used for liquor and shortly thereafter as as drug route you have the family that is set up on both sides to smuggle whatever

That alone is HUGE

That route is how alot of the families in the US are getting their drugs shipped in.

Why would they ever give that up?


It looks like the Canadians have full control over that. Even in the 1990s it didn't seem like Buffalo was hugely involved in that drug/liquor route, although I could be wrong.
Posted By: MeyerLansky

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 07:29 AM

so you guys believe that there is a family with hierarchy over there ?
do they have good contacts with the other ny families or only canadians families ?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 07:49 AM

I do not have any first or second hand knowledge of such.

I am guessing that since such a route with be worth so much in terms of dollars, and be app hard to establish from scratch.

That the guys in Buffalo I can't see why they would ever let that go

.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by MeyerLansky
so you guys believe that there is a family with hierarchy over there ?
do they have good contacts with the other ny families or only canadians families ?


Rooster has a) they are rebuilding ties to Canada and b) they are losing ties to Canada. Neither of which have been backed up with any evidence.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 11:29 AM

I wouldn't doubt they have good contacts with NY. I don't really know because I ain't from NYC, but they are likely an important stop between the Canadian and NYC guys. A unique hybrid.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 12:55 PM

at Nicky....In order to be rebuilding ties they would have had to lost them, so yes it can overlap. I never said currently losing. The big bust in '90 and the big bust last year prove they, had, and the bust in 03 prove they still had, and then probably lost to an extent, and somewhere in between, they rebuilt.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 01:02 PM

What I would like to know is with the Nick Nero bust, if they had all these tractor trailers of drugs sitting in Buffalo, who knew about them? You need local contacts and infrastructure to house and them and people on the ground in Buffalo. In that trial no real information came out about it, just vague references
Posted By: SilentPartnerz

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 05:30 PM

Ivy League still posts regular on Black Hand. HE still quotes from LE sources/indictments daily.
That said, I am the boss of Buffalo, and I am here to tell you that my UB; Consig; and 4 capos are
very tired of youse guys telling everyone that were are a defunct family.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 05:52 PM

How do we really know youre the boss of Buffalo? You could just be saying that
Posted By: SilentPartnerz

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 07:09 PM

You can be sure that I am just saying that
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 07:59 PM

Buffalo is still active.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 09:01 PM

Do you mind if I consider you the boss?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 09:03 PM

lol thats Bifulco with the beard
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
lol thats Bifulco with the beard


The new boss is wearing the 25 jersey. He's transferring over from Brentwood.
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 10:44 PM

i was recently inducted i took over the western mass operation im not surposed to tell anyone. shuuu
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/08/18 10:49 PM

Brentwood Crip for sure, for life. His nickname here is the Sponge
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/09/18 09:05 AM

The Cohen bust involved the Lucchese family. Brian Cohen was on record with the Ben "Sonny" Nicoletti Jr. Sonny was making a lot of money and it was the partnership with Lucchese that made it happen in PR, with Brian overseeing the operation.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/09/18 12:49 PM

CR not PR Giacomo
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 01:11 PM

I am new here however, if LE the press and.indixtements are acceptable
Don't we have all of that with Buffalo now?
Since the arrest
?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 01:15 PM

Ofcourse, its already proven.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 03:33 PM

In the indictment itself if they are being charged as LIN
Which I believe they are the verbiage is the same:
You have a boss, ub, etc. Down the line.

Aren't the guys from Buffalo charged as LCN?
Wouldn't that mean that the FBI is operating under that assumption?

Or does the indictment refer to them as a defunct family?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 05:43 PM

Yes. I havent seen the whole indictment and not sure if it even names all the ones charged or co conspirators not charged. But a few of the articles say "partnership in Buffalo" and/or "Buffalo" so...

Does anyone have the full indictment that lists everyone they can post I cant find one
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 06:05 PM

Was the last time the FBI mentioned Buffalo in 2006?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 06:25 PM

The Justice Department's official statement says: "In a coordinated operation, Canadian law enforcement authorities today arrested nine organized crime members and associates in Canada, including members of the Todaro organized crime family, who are charged with, among other crimes, narcotics trafficking."


No U.S. members of the "Todaro organized crime family" were arrested. Also, we don't know the names of the Canadian Todaro guys arrested.

This doesn't make the Todaro crime family an active family. There are many members still alive from defunct families. LA Family, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Bufalino, Trafficante, etc. all have made guys that are still alive and hey, those guys are probably still criminals if they're not retired.
We have seen in the past that decades after a family goes extinct, often remnants from the family continue to be involved in organized crime. Such is the case which remnants of the Trafficante family (who began working with Gambino guys), the KC family and the New Orleans family.

Also, since the U.S. wing of the Buffalo family was subject to a lot more law enforcement pressure than their friends over the border, it wouldn't surprise me if the guys in Canada continued to run their operations on a smaller scale. Since, starting in the 1990s, the Canadian wing was reported to be separated from the Buffalo wing, they could have been independent for awhile, although I think they would have been taken over or absorbed by the local, far more powerful, Mafia or Ndrangheta there.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 06:44 PM

Right, meaning theres an active Buffalo Crime Family. What evidence do you have showing the Canadians split from Buffalo??
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 06:46 PM

The DOJ would say the Canadian Mafia which once was considered the LCN if thats what they meant
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 06:49 PM

There was busts in the 90s and 2003 showing the affiliation
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 06:51 PM

and the FBI chart in 2006 shows the Buffalo crew in Canada still intact
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 06:55 PM

All the defunct families arent even close to being able to compare with Buffalo in the last 20 years
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 07:03 PM

Another side note, (others posted on the Violi thread)

The 210 and 91 are both rebuilding the Buffalo/Fort Erie bridge
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 08:28 PM

So what is the debate?

Everyone agrees that the Buffalo family is active today because they just got indicted last month.

So they have to be active.


The debate is do they have a formal structure or is it just the guys that are left from back in day operating independent?

The only ways to know that:

1) Someone flips and lays out the structure.
2) It's mentions it in the actual inducement.
3) They go to trial and everything comes out.
4) Someone locally in the know posts on here.

Everyone can have different opinions which is what is happening here I don't think one opinion is better than the other.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 08:34 PM


Sorry the automatic spell check kills me.
I have to change the setting.

Besides my thumbs are too big for my phone.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Right, meaning theres an active Buffalo Crime Family. What evidence do you have showing the Canadians split from Buffalo??


I shouldn't really say "split," I should say defunct.

"and the Canadian crew as dead as charity since the assassination of John “Johnny Pops” Papaglia in 1997." Critically acclaimed Niagara Falls Reporter Mike Hudson, who is an expert on the Buffalo mob.

I'm sure you know all about Papalia's death by the hands of Ang Musitano and his crew, as well as the death of Papalia's number-two Carmen Barillaro on the hands of Musitano's crew that same year. You can't tell me there was anything viable Canadian structure left after the death of those two, and if there was then the powerful Musitanos would have dismantled that the same way they dismantled Papalia and Barillaro.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
So what is the debate?

Everyone agrees that the Buffalo family is active today because they just got indicted last month.

So they have to be active.


The debate is do they have a formal structure or is it just the guys that are left from back in day operating independent?

The only ways to know that:

1) Someone flips and lays out the structure.
2) It's mentions it in the actual inducement.
3) They go to trial and everything comes out.
4) Someone locally in the know posts on here.

Everyone can have different opinions which is what is happening here I don't think one opinion is better than the other.




I suppose we have different definitions of the family being "active." In my opinion, one or two made members operating independently or under the wing of another family does not constitute a family being "active." A family being active means the family is active, as in the organization. A made member is a made member for life, and if that member continues running his shy book 25 years after the organization he belonged to is gone, then that is not "active" in my humble opinion.

Also, the inherent problem with people that are "locally in the know" posting on a forum is that we have no way of knowing whether they are really "in the know," or whether they are making up information just for fun, as has been the case in the past with certain users.

If Rooster is proven right, I will definitely apologize. I do not know for certain that he is wrong. But logical thought indicates he's wrong.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 09:20 PM

Again, if the DOJ didnt consider them an active family they wouldnt have worded it the way they did. And again the FBI report listed the Canadian as in tact in 06. You cant compare Buffalo to any of the defunct families you listed, thats not logical thought. The Papalia murder was done by the Musitanos who never were aligned with the Violi/Luppino group, they were a modest sized crew then and still are (hanging on for dear life). Many Canadian guys came over for Falzone and Capitanos funeral. Still lots of respect going back decades.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 09:24 PM

And what Trafficante member was working alongside Gotti Jr back then?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/11/18 11:34 PM

I scoured the internet and found nothing about any Trafficante member working alongside any Gambino member. No articles, no indictments.

Can you post the source Nicky?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I scoured the internet and found nothing about any Trafficante member working alongside any Gambino member. No articles, no indictments.

Can you post the source Nicky?


Wikipedia mentions it, also since there is no source provided I did some further googling.

"By the late 1990s some suspected the family was dormant, some said the family was absorbed by the New York-based Gambino family, while others maintained the family was still around, but not as active." - https://www.cltampa.com/news-views/article/20712530/the-mob

Scott Deitche has said that an LE source told him as far back as 1997/1998 that "you know the Trafficantes are under the Gambinos now." Deitche also mentioned how John Mamone - a powerful Trafficante soldier and second-in-command to longtime Miami capo Steve Raffa - told investigators after he flipped in 2000 that when he was inducted into the crime family in the mid-1990s in Tampa, Raffa told him they were "with" the Gambinos.
In Deitche's book "Cigar City Mafia," which is probably the most comprehensive book on the Trafficante crime family, Deitche maintained from pages 264-266 that the prevailing theory was that the family was under the Gambinos. He is able to tie in numerous busts to illustrate the ties that the two families have, and explicitly mentioned John Gotti Jr. Other names mentioned were Gambino senior advisor Joe Arcuri, "a native Tampan with ties to both Trafficante and LoScalzo," Gambino crew leader Ronald 'Ronnie One Arm' Trucchio, Vincent 'Vinny Aspirins' Congiusti, Terry Scaglione, and more.
Posted By: WhackWhack

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 04:26 AM

Rooster, why are you so hell bent on proving the Arm still exists ? It doesn't, I live in the suburb that's 20-25 minutes from EVERY place in WNY. I can get to Hertel in 4 minutes, The Falls Casino in 25 and downtown only 15 minutes. I live here too. And there simply is no more family. Again like it's been said before that doesn't mean there are no mafioso left in the city who is still involved in crime, just that the family is finished. There's no administration. There is no soldiers. Even if it was still alive there is zero chance there are more then 10-15 legit made guys still active. That's a glorified crew not a family.

And it'll never come back. Not unless you allow any earner to join even if they don't have a vowel at the end of their name. And if they do that then they aren't even Cosa Nostra anymore just another street gang. It's never coming back. There aren't enough Young Hard working Italian men to replenish the ranks. There is zero reason for a young man of Italian/Sicilian heritage to kick up the ladder, there is no benefit. There's no more extreme violence. They have no power left in the unions etc....even if there was a young man who was Italian descent who was a earner (moving product or loan sharking or book making/running a card game ) why would he want to get involved and forced to kick up to some guy who he has zero loyalty to? Why would anyone want to give 10-20% of their weekly earnings in 2018. This isn't the 60s/70s anymore. The only thing you would get being involved with Cosa Nostra in 2018 is your name coming up in investigations
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The DOJ would say the Canadian Mafia which once was considered the LCN if thats what they meant


I don't know what you mean by this. Members of defunct families can get indicted as members of said family, even if that family isn't active. This is because once you are made, you take the vow for life. Even flipped crime family members have said they are still members, just "on the shelf." It was a Bonanno guy that said that.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The DOJ would say the Canadian Mafia which once was considered the LCN if thats what they meant


Why? If the guy was made in the 90s, the family went defunct in the early 00s, and the guy was indicted in 2017, he is still a member of the "Todaro organized crime family." The feds are under no obligation to specify that the family is defunct, because the guy is not charged with being a Mafia member, he is charged with narcotics trafficking, according to the DOJ.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Again, if the DOJ didnt consider them an active family they wouldnt have worded it the way they did. And again the FBI report listed the Canadian as in tact in 06. You cant compare Buffalo to any of the defunct families you listed, thats not logical thought. The Papalia murder was done by the Musitanos who never were aligned with the Violi/Luppino group, they were a modest sized crew then and still are (hanging on for dear life). Many Canadian guys came over for Falzone and Capitanos funeral. Still lots of respect going back decades.


Preface: I still don't believe that the family is active.

With that being said - in your opinion, how did the Canadian wing survive following the assassinations of the crew's capo and second-in-command (and maybe more). Facing pressure from the Musitano crew and the Luppino crew, wouldn't they have dissipated quite quickly after that?
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 07:12 AM

Valid reasons on both whack whack and Nicky from Tampa, I mut admit, I'm starting to have my doubts as well. If violi is the underboss of buffalo, then why in the hell is he living almost 7 hours away in Hamilton???
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Again, if the DOJ didnt consider them an active family they wouldnt have worded it the way they did. And again the FBI report listed the Canadian as in tact in 06. You cant compare Buffalo to any of the defunct families you listed, thats not logical thought. The Papalia murder was done by the Musitanos who never were aligned with the Violi/Luppino group, they were a modest sized crew then and still are (hanging on for dear life). Many Canadian guys came over for Falzone and Capitanos funeral. Still lots of respect going back decades.


Preface: I still don't believe that the family is active.

With that being said - in your opinion, how did the Canadian wing survive following the assassinations of the crew's capo and second-in-command (and maybe more). Facing pressure from the Musitano crew and the Luppino crew, wouldn't they have dissipated quite quickly after that?


Cause the Luppinos never broke off from Buffalo. Giacomo didn't break off from the family even during the factions split or when Natale good friend Paul Volpe was killed. While Vincenzo Jimmy Luppino was the Boss of Hamilton, he still had meetings with Bifulco, Falzone, Miceli, Nicolettis, but no known meetings with the Todaros during the 1990's. Jimmy was slated to be killed by the Musitanos, but Murdock did not have an opportunity as Luppino always had at least one heavy hitter around him who served as his bodyguard or chauffeur. The Luppinos were still intact and the Musitanos could not capitalize on Hamilton, plus a cop on the Luppinos pay said that arrests were coming soon on the Musitanos and their associates, so the Luppinos did nothing to the brothers. The Papalia crew never recovered and is currently a pasteurized crew, hardly active with the exception of Joe Pugliese.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Again, if the DOJ didnt consider them an active family they wouldnt have worded it the way they did. And again the FBI report listed the Canadian as in tact in 06. You cant compare Buffalo to any of the defunct families you listed, thats not logical thought. The Papalia murder was done by the Musitanos who never were aligned with the Violi/Luppino group, they were a modest sized crew then and still are (hanging on for dear life). Many Canadian guys came over for Falzone and Capitanos funeral. Still lots of respect going back decades.


Preface: I still don't believe that the family is active.

With that being said - in your opinion, how did the Canadian wing survive following the assassinations of the crew's capo and second-in-command (and maybe more). Facing pressure from the Musitano crew and the Luppino crew, wouldn't they have dissipated quite quickly after that?


Cause the Luppinos never broke off from Buffalo. Giacomo didn't break off from the family even during the factions split or when Natale good friend Paul Volpe was killed. While Vincenzo Jimmy Luppino was the Boss of Hamilton, he still had meetings with Bifulco, Falzone, Miceli, Nicolettis, but no known meetings with the Todaros during the 1990's. Jimmy was slated to be killed by the Musitanos, but Murdock did not have an opportunity as Luppino always had at least one heavy hitter around him who served as his bodyguard or chauffeur. The Luppinos were still intact and the Musitanos could not capitalize on Hamilton, plus a cop on the Luppinos pay said that arrests were coming soon on the Musitanos and their associates, so the Luppinos did nothing to the brothers. The Papalia crew never recovered and is currently a pasteurized crew, hardly active with the exception of Joe Pugliese.


I don't know enough about the situation to comment on everything you said, but it is interesting nevertheless.

Here is an excerpt I used from Hamilton newspaper 'The Spec' to base my post:
"In their heyday, the Musitanos, the Papalias and the Luppinos each staked out territory here and sometimes killed over it."
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 11:41 AM

Hamilton is 60 miles from Buffalo, 7 hours?? Violi use to live in Montreal I believe which is 7 hrs
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 11:47 AM

I guess it all depends on interpretation of what the Mafia is in a smaller regio in 2018. So you dont believe that there is younger members that kick up? Feliciano? Cardinale? There not on record with anyone and in line? Cmon. Thats the part that I believe to not be the case. Your giving your opinion as am I, youre trying to assume based off what you believe as am I. Youre throwing numbers of 15-20%, when it could simply be a few as at Christmas time. Im not hell bent, I just think that evidence, combined with local rumor combined with coincidence proves there still is an active, structured family.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 11:56 AM

@ Nicky, why would the DOJ 1) create a name never used before in the "Todaro Organized Crime Family"? and elude to jts existence if it was current? They would be be more nostalgic and historical about it. Theres no other reason to use it unless it is active, even if they mean it is a former shell of itself.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 11:58 AM

And it might just be a crew, on the New York side of things and they might be semi-subservient to Canada at this point.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 11:59 AM

@ Nicky, or it could say a member of a Buffalo Mafia Family who since has switched allegiance to a Canadian Crime Family
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 12:03 PM

@ Nicky....good find on the Tampa stuff, although I believe one cant compare Buffalo to any defunct families in the last 20 years
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 05:56 PM

@Rooster, do you second what Vacari wrote about Canada post-Papalia?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 05:57 PM

Also, it's hard to say what the feds think about the Todaro crime family at the moment. You have made some good points but I think unless they explicitly say the family is active, they are simply trying to add weight to their case.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/12/18 07:27 PM

The only verification I can give to his statements are that Falzone and Nicoletti (Bifulco did 10 years from 02 to 2012 so) were in fact very close to the Canadians all the way up to their deaths. The rest, in theory, makes sense but again without verification I understand its hard for anyone to believe.

Getting back to the Wilson case, I figured out the connection, although I admit its layered. The cop who got busted along with Wilson and convicted was a good friend of Sansaneses.

And youre right, but why bring the name up, unless its for another reason, if they in fact are separate from Canada now?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/15/18 03:32 PM


http://aboutthemafia.com/investigat...f-the-buffalo-mafia-family#disqus_thread

I am sure everyone has seen the above.

It appears that LE is referencing a source I image someone is either CI , or someone who already flipped on the case.

They are going as far to mention titles I.E. Violi is the underboss.
Operating in Canada controlling the Canada faction.
On the American side the boss of the family is operating.

If you guys recall the Bonanno's were written off by the FBI and every major LE agency of that time period.

They emerged shortly thereafter with Massino hosting a commission meeting.

I am not comparing the Bonanno's with Buffalo.

I am.making a point they were counted out so much so the FBI didn't even have a squad for them, SOUND FAMILIAR?

Also, the Columbo'S have been counted out, so many times who can count? basically that the whole family was to be taken over kinda like a hostile takeover.

The only problem with that is that no one bothered to tell Carmine and all his loyal shooters what they thought they were going to do with them.

If you look at the Scopo hit, that was amoung of things a F.U. to GOTTI, who at that time was one of the most powerful mobsters in the world.

1) Gotti ordered the gambino's to not acknowledge the snake as boss anymore.
2) Gotti told both sides that his neighborhood was off limits, NO SHOOTING in his backyard.
3) Scoopo was very very close to the Gotties.
4) Gotti was abusing the Snake or trying to anyway.
5) Scoop had a joint book with the Gotties.

The Columbo's went into Howard beach and took out Scoopo.

That was An FU to Gotti.

Again the Columbo's for all intents and purposes were being counted out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is not that Buffalo is as strong as either of these families however, you cannot say for sure if and how they are operating.

What we do have is an indictment that shows they are active today.
And a source that is saying the family is fully intact.

The source could be full of shit or may be 1000% CORRECT.
How could we tell? TIME WILL TELL.
How do we believe anything that anyone's says for that matter?

The ney Sayers asked for proof
Proof has been provided

I think it is up to the ney Sayers to dis-prove it at this point.

Maybe the moderators can interject at this point as to the acceptable rules?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/15/18 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

http://aboutthemafia.com/investigat...f-the-buffalo-mafia-family#disqus_thread

I am sure everyone has seen the above.

It appears that LE is referencing a source I image someone is either CI , or someone who already flipped on the case.

They are going as far to mention titles I.E. Violi is the underboss.
Operating in Canada controlling the Canada faction.
On the American side the boss of the family is operating.


You must have misread the article, so I'm not going to berate you or whatever. But LE has no said that the Buffalo family is still active. They have not named Violi as the underboss. They have not named a Canada faction. They have not named an American faction. That's plain wrong. I skim-read the article, since it basically rehashes everything that was said on Cosa Nostra News and the other mob forums, but I don't see anything in there which even alludes to the fact that LE thinks the family is active.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST


My point is not that Buffalo is as strong as either of these families however, you cannot say for sure if and how they are operating.

What we do have is an indictment that shows they are active today.
And a source that is saying the family is fully intact.

The source could be full of shit or may be 1000% CORRECT.
How could we tell? TIME WILL TELL.
How do we believe anything that anyone's says for that matter?


We do not have an indictment that shows they are active today. We know that members of the Todaro crime family were arrested in Canada. If, for instance, Dennis Librizzi was arrested for bookmaking, that would not be proof that the Milwaukee crime family is still active. It is completely plausible that a 71-year-old mobster like Librizzi could be committing crimes, but I'm sure no one will argue with me that it wouldn't be on behalf of the "Milwaukee crime family." This is what I believe is the scenario here. The narrative that you are running is that the feds have actively disclosed that the Todaro crime family is active. That is simply not true.
Regarding the Todaro crime family in Canada, the last real news we have is from 1997, when the crew's capo and top lieutenant were murdered by the Musitano mob group in a (successful) effort to dismantle the crew's operations. There was no retaliation from the Todaros. None whatsoever.


Originally Posted by BensonHURST

The ney Sayers asked for proof
Proof has been provided

I think it is up to the ney Sayers to dis-prove it at this point.

Maybe the moderators can interject at this point as to the acceptable rules?


There has been NO PROOF that the family is active. I cannot stress that enough. You are simply wrong if you say there is.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/15/18 10:14 PM

Nicky they are active, for the 100th time.
Posted By: BillyBrizzi

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/15/18 10:36 PM

I have been on these boards for quite a while now and as far as I know, there are only 10 viable LCN families left. I believe even the FBI has stated this. The 10 families are the 5 fams of NY, Philly, Jersey, New England, Chicago and Detroit. And even Detroit is debatable as far as being viable by a lot of experts..

And for me personally, the evidence that is presented in this thread, is not convincing enough for me to accept that the Buffalo/Todaro family is presently a viable, full-fledged LCN family. That the family still has active members is clear as day and undeniable, but that doesn't make the family as a whole any less defunct..
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 12:41 AM

Ok, theyre not active
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nicky they are active, for the 100th time.


Rooster, there is no proof they are active, for the 100th time.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 05:40 AM

Nicky,

I appreciate the fact the your not going to berate me, THANK YOU...

I posted the wrong link

After re-reading the articles it states the info is from a credible source but does not state the source.

I don't know how to do the research that some of you guys k ow how to do
Why doesn't some one that knows how just post the Canda version of the indictment
I am sure they have something similar, or something similar to our FBI press releases.

If not that I can't see how.anyone can say for sure anything other than their opinion atleast for now anyway.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 05:51 AM

In reference to what you said about the Pops hit
Correct me if I am wrong didn't the guy that was responsible for the hit just get buried?
And his brothers house get shot up?

Almost to the day Pops was whacked?

Didn't the Rizzutto's dad get whacked the same way one of the Violo's got whacked?

I am not suggesting anything is connected here
I am saying it looks like the guys who took out the old guard from Buffalo LCN recently had some bad luck, maybe someone put a hex on them?

If I wanted to send a message that something was pay back, I couldn't think of a much better way.

I am not suggesting the family is a full blown LCN family with a full viable structure However, they appear to be a little more than just a couple of leftovers selling buckle bags of weed.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
In reference to what you said about the Pops hit
Correct me if I am wrong didn't the guy that was responsible for the hit just get buried?
And his brothers house get shot up?

Almost to the day Pops was whacked?

Didn't the Rizzutto's dad get whacked the same way one of the Violo's got whacked?

I am not suggesting anything is connected here
I am saying it looks like the guys who took out the old guard from Buffalo LCN recently had some bad luck, maybe someone put a hex on them?

If I wanted to send a message that something was pay back, I couldn't think of a much better way.

I am not suggesting the family is a full blown LCN family with a full viable structure However, they appear to be a little more than just a couple of leftovers selling buckle bags of weed.



It doesn't seem like the Canadian remnants had anything going for them post-1997, and for them to finally make a revenge move in 2017 is more than improbable. You have to remember that the number-one and number-two men of the relatively small Canada crew were both murdered brutally in 97 and there was no retaliation.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 10:39 AM

Ok Nicky, I believe you now. Who do you believe the younger members are in line with and who do they answer to?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 10:49 AM

Nickel Bags of weed
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 11:05 AM

Who ever whacked Nicolo Rizzuto sent a message that atleast In part he was answering for the Violi murders.
Same thing with Mustiano

Then there is a crew in Canada that is whacking out guys that way up on the food chain, and making It look as if it is coming from the defunct
Buffalo LCN family.

When Basciano took over the Bonanno's to send a message he was the man he whacked out Pizzolo and left a body in the street for all go see.

When Merlino was getting out and there was a little confusion as to who was going to be running things in P.A.
A MESSAGE was sent a body was left in the street to show everyone who the boss was, the message was " If you F--K with me, you will be left in the street"

Again not saying this is the same what I am saying there appears to be a message behind these two hits, and that message would only benefit Buffalo,
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 11:08 AM

The message that I see is "PAY BACK"
Who is getting pay back?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Ok Nicky, I believe you now. Who do you believe the younger members are in line with and who do they answer to?


There are no "younger members" of the Buffalo crime family. Problem solved. I doubt any are below 65. And if there are a couple guys in their 50s, that happened to be made at a young age in the 90s, then they are not "in line with" anyone. It's not a criminal's burning desire to kick up tribute or be "in line with" anyone. Give me one good reason for a young Italian criminal to want to kick up tribute to some old guy with no power and no money.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 07:20 PM

Why have they been doing it for the last 100 years? There are young wannabee in their 20's that work for some middle aged guy that they look up to, usually one of the young guys is related to them, like an uncle or something. He then kicks something up to the old guys because they are probably related to them in some way too, and they feel the need to provide something to them. Maybe the kickup ain't even much but they get most of their earning from legit businesses they own from the years of illegal money.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 07:22 PM

How old are the Violi brothers?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 07:41 PM

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the FBI brought out the fat lady too soon?
That the power base shifted to Canada, for amoung other reasons they don't have R.I.C.O.

Also, at the time Buffalo got hit in Canada, that the Buffalo family was just too weak to fight off the Rizzuto's and the Bonnano families.

That they were basically in a holding pattern until something changed.

So you had the power shift to Canada, You have alot less activity and the FBI writing them off and that is the reason very little indictments were handed down.

When the opportunity presented itself they were able to exact revenge on their enemies.

Because we are seeing more of them and because their enemies are being shot up that now L.E. is starting to focus on them again hence the new indictments.


Are you saying this is just not possible?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 07:47 PM

Also you seem be stuck in structure and Hierarchy

In Canada the formal structure is alot different then American LCN

Look at the Rizzuto's at their peak way different

Do I think Buffalo has an American LCN hierarchy
Probably not.

Do I think a small family needs it
I don't

Do I think they could have some sort of structure in place yes I do.

Maybe two capos one in C.A. and one in America
or something

I am just saying I think it possible
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 09:48 PM

Feliciano and Cardinale are both in their 40s actually. Theyve been on every possible chart in the last 15 years published by everyone and everywhere
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 09:51 PM

@ Nicky...in the other thread you said that Localzo was the Boss of Tampa up until 2006 or that he was totally legit by 2007. What exactly was he Boss of in 2006?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/16/18 09:52 PM

And there is 20's and 30's associates at the very least, some may even be made, more likely with the Canadian crew I admit
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 02:27 AM

Rooster where you from?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 02:40 AM

Originally Ft. Wayne, 20+ years Buffalo. You?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Moscone65
Why have they been doing it for the last 100 years? There are young wannabee in their 20's that work for some middle aged guy that they look up to, usually one of the young guys is related to them, like an uncle or something. He then kicks something up to the old guys because they are probably related to them in some way too, and they feel the need to provide something to them. Maybe the kickup ain't even much but they get most of their earning from legit businesses they own from the years of illegal money.


If it was that simple, there would still be 26 families in America like there were during its peak, as opposed to the 10 or so families now.
When it comes to defunct families, we have seen over the years that various sons, grandsons, and nephews of wiseguys continue committing crimes and, occasionally, taking over their descendant's ranks. This doesn't mean the overall mob family is active. At all.

Young wannabes (family ties excluded) probably don't feel any obligation to kick up to anyone. They have no reason to fear these old-time mobsters. Look at Bifulco, supposedly a powerful Buffalo capo. He was shot in 2001 by a crack dealer he was trying to extort, and he was also violently robbed in his store. When Rooster says "who are these younger guys in line with/kick up to" he is implying that young Italian-American criminals feel an obligation to kick up to some old guy.
The Mafia ruled by fear. Aspiring loansharks and bookies had to kick up out of fear. But in Buffalo city, the last (confirmed) hit ordered by the family was in 1980.

"Why have they been doing it for the last 100 years?" Because, previously, there were opportunities to make money in the Mafia through the vast connections that being a made guy could bring. With their union interests taken down, and their rackets seriously diminished in the late 90s/early 00s, there was no eagerness in the younger generations to join the "withering" Buffalo mob.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the FBI brought out the fat lady too soon?
That the power base shifted to Canada, for amoung other reasons they don't have R.I.C.O.

Also, at the time Buffalo got hit in Canada, that the Buffalo family was just too weak to fight off the Rizzuto's and the Bonnano families.

That they were basically in a holding pattern until something changed.

So you had the power shift to Canada, You have alot less activity and the FBI writing them off and that is the reason very little indictments were handed down.

When the opportunity presented itself they were able to exact revenge on their enemies.

Because we are seeing more of them and because their enemies are being shot up that now L.E. is starting to focus on them again hence the new indictments.


Are you saying this is just not possible?



With all due respect, it seems like you're building speculations on other speculations. Of course it is possible that could have happened, there is really nothing to base that on.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Also you seem be stuck in structure and Hierarchy

In Canada the formal structure is alot different then American LCN

Look at the Rizzuto's at their peak way different

Do I think Buffalo has an American LCN hierarchy
Probably not.

Do I think a small family needs it
I don't

Do I think they could have some sort of structure in place yes I do.

Maybe two capos one in C.A. and one in America
or something

I am just saying I think it possible


Again, it of course is possible, but there is really nothing to base that on.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[quote=Moscone65]

The Mafia ruled by fear. Aspiring loansharks and bookies had to kick up out of fear. But in Buffalo city, the last (confirmed) hit ordered by the family was in 1980.



Sorry, I was slightly off with that one, it was from a 1998 article from the Buffalo News. Turns out the last confirmed Buffalo crime family hit (in the US) was 1993.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:02 AM

You can add the 98 bust mentioned in the article to the list of Buffalo Crime Family busts too
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:04 AM

Slightly off by 13 years lol.....again Nicky, please Localzo, Boss of what in 2006?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Feliciano and Cardinale are both in their 40s actually. Theyve been on every possible chart in the last 15 years published by everyone and everywhere


Yes but there hasn't been any sort of verified, official chart in the last 15 years. The last one was the top-heavy one showing the remnants in 06.
Feliciano was in the Utica shoplifting bust and named as part of the fencing ring. I haven't seen anything official saying he was made, seems to be one of those things where one person on a forum says so and everyone just goes with it. He lived in Brooklyn at the time of the bust, so he wasn't even a Utica-based soldier like charts have him as.
Also, which Cardinale are you talking about? I can't think of any in their 40s.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:10 AM

Rackets diminished so much Nicoletti took in 20 million a year in bets in the 2000s, La Nova made 20 million a year for the last 10 years, Ciminelli makes millions and millions each year, Bifulco Im sure does well present day, the bust in Utica was in the millions, Carcone does well in his book.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:12 AM

Hes with Buffalo Nicky its known he is, its not a secret. One of the Cardinale brothers is in his forties
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:13 AM

What was Localzo the Boss of? I think you know where Im going with this
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Slightly off by 13 years lol.....again Nicky, please Localzo, Boss of what in 2006?


The Trafficante crime family. Let me elaborate:

By 2007, LoScalzo was legit/retired. He was still running schemes (or at least one scheme) until (allegedly) 2000, and was investigated for loansharking in the early 2000s although no charges for those were laid. Which means that in 2006, 2007 and even today he is the "boss" of the Trafficante crime family but, as that article I linked to you mentioned, there was nothing to be the boss of by 07. I doubt there was any definitive moment where he stopped being the boss. It's not like he was demoted or anything, but it's like a Billy D'Elia situation.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:16 AM

So do you believe that in 2018 there is a Boss of Buffalo?

And if there is nothing to be the Boss of how is one the Boss?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:16 AM

By the way, Rooster, I am not trying to ignore your queries and comments but since there was a lot for me to reply to, and we are replying to eachother at just about the same time, it's hard for me to keep up.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://buffalonews.com/2003/07/25/bifulco-sentenced-to-stiff-prison-term/

Why do young Italian Americans pay tribute in Philly, NYC, Boston, Providence, Chicago, and Detroit but they dont feel that in Buffalo? That makes no sense. You want it both ways.



In the big cities, where the mob is still active, there is still the pronounced threat of violence that compels people to pay tribute.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:21 AM

In some cities it died out because there weren't many Italians, but in Buffalo there's quite abit, plus alot of influence from Canada which has a crap ton of Italians, many of whom came not that long ago. Sure some sons become a lawyer or something, but some simply aren't cut out for that kinda life and want to get into the life. And there's tons of money to be made in buffalo, most of it from things like drug money or even into "legitimate" things, which Buffalo guys have long been entrenched in unions and the like. The buffalo family can offer these young guys these connections and a greater network of people, plus the vestige of being la Cosa nostra. Maybe they don't get a weekly kickup, just a nice Busta at Christmas time and a bigger cut of certain businesses
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://buffalonews.com/2003/07/25/bifulco-sentenced-to-stiff-prison-term/

How do you have any clue on who is eager and who is not eager to be a part of a criminal organization?



I don't, but I explained my reasoning in the post.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:23 AM

Mob murders are further and further apart in all the big cities. How do you have any idea about any threats or beatings that happen in Buffalo or who is scared of who? At this point you are also speculating upon other speculations.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:25 AM

Yes, all of us have reasons. The rackets arent diminished as you state, many of the things you state arent reality
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:26 AM

Why do young guys want to join the Hells Angels?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Rackets diminished so much Nicoletti took in 20 million a year in bets in the 2000s, La Nova made 20 million a year for the last 10 years, Ciminelli makes millions and millions each year, Bifulco Im sure does well present day, the bust in Utica was in the millions, Carcone does well in his book.


A bookmaker taking in 20 million a year does not mean that he makes 20 million a year. That is just how many bets are placed with him. For comparison, Bonanno soldier John Zancocchio took in $280 million in bets until 1990, but he only made (in income) for himself a tiny fraction of that.

La Nova is a legitimate, large pizza chain.

"Ciminelli makes millions and millions each year" - Got any evidence?

"Bifulco Im sure does well present day" - Again, got any evidence?

"the bust in Utica was in the millions" - Key point - it was busted.

"Carcone does well in his book" - Got any evidence?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Hes with Buffalo Nicky its known he is, its not a secret. One of the Cardinale brothers is in his forties


Which Carnidale brother? And how do you know he is made?

Also, saying "its not a secret" doesn't help your point.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
So do you believe that in 2018 there is a Boss of Buffalo?

And if there is nothing to be the Boss of how is one the Boss?


He is/was the boss in name alone. Just like Billy D'Elia.

The last alleged boss in Buffalo was Leonard Falzone and the last official boss was Joe Todaro Sr.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Moscone65

And there's tons of money to be made in buffalo, most of it from things like drug money or even into "legitimate" things, which Buffalo guys have long been entrenched in unions and the like.

The unions were declared mob-free in 2006. Since then there has been no allegations of mob activity in the unions.
Also, unless someone can prove me wrong, the Buffalo mafia was never big in the drug business and never got close to controlling it.
"It's not that the mob wasn't involved in drugs," says one former law enforcement official. "It's just that it never bothered to try to control it." - http://buffalonews.com/2002/09/13/as-nicoletti-saga-resumes-new-charges-of-bookmaking/

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Mob murders are further and further apart in all the big cities. How do you have any idea about any threats or beatings that happen in Buffalo or who is scared of who? At this point you are also speculating upon other speculations.


They are further and further apart, but still extraordinarily more frequent than Buffalo. And (compared to Buffalo) there are still a shitton of beatings and assaults that happen via the mob in NY and elsewhere.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

How do you have any idea about any threats or beatings that happen in Buffalo or who is scared of who? At this point you are also speculating upon other speculations.


If wiseguys in Buffalo are under law enforcement scrutiny like you say they are, yet there is still violence going on in the streets on behalf of the mob, there would be busts. It's as simple as that. It's simply not possible for LE to be so inept that they are thoroughly surveilling and investigating mobsters involved in regular violence or extortion, yet they haven't made a bust in 15+ years. That is not speculation, that's logic.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Yes, all of us have reasons. The rackets arent diminished as you state, many of the things you state arent reality


Well give me some evidence otherwise. Oh wait... there is none.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Why do young guys want to join the Hells Angels?


MC clubs are a different ballgame. The Mafia is a money-making enterprise at its heart of which certain friendships, connections and cultures arise. The Hells Angels are an enterprise based on comradere and friendship between criminals, and the youths of the organization join it for companionship (in my opinion). Money-making comes as a byproduct of all this.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Rackets diminished so much Nicoletti took in 20 million a year in bets in the 2000s, La Nova made 20 million a year for the last 10 years, Ciminelli makes millions and millions each year, Bifulco Im sure does well present day, the bust in Utica was in the millions, Carcone does well in his book.


A bookmaker taking in 20 million a year does not mean that he makes 20 million a year. That is just how many bets are placed with him. For comparison, Bonanno soldier John Zancocchio took in $280 million in bets until 1990, but he only made (in income) for himself a tiny fraction of that.

La Nova is a legitimate, large pizza chain.

"Ciminelli makes millions and millions each year" - Got any evidence?

"Bifulco Im sure does well present day" - Again, got any evidence?

"the bust in Utica was in the millions" - Key point - it was busted.

"Carcone does well in his book" - Got any evidence?


Cohen was a cash cow for Nicoletti Jr. When Brian was arrested with Lucchese members, Sonny lost a lot. His sports book was more like 25 million, and he only received about 1 million a year. Still money there, but casinos and legal gambling have significantly cut the mobs revenue.

Bifulco is doing pretty good for himself, not flashy, but seems to have a large amount of cash on him. He is a gambler like half of New York wiseguys, but not a degenerate gambler.

Carcone sports book took a hit, but still manages, not like it use to be, but he gets by.

Ciminelli? Are you talking about Criminisi? Ralph and the Pugliese brothers, Joe and Anthony have slot machines in some areas, and used another associate to get some of their machines in Seneca Falls Resort when they made room for more slot machines. Criminisi does not have a sports book, but Joe Pugliese does that make about 10 million a year, which he takes in a quarter to half a million a year. Their brother Pat Pugliese is inactive and has been since the mid 2000's. Someone mentioned that Criminisi is involved with a chop-shop which is hard to believe, but a cousin and associate to the Pugliese boasts cars, so there maybe something there.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 03:13 PM

Anyone can really rip apart anything that someone else posts.

1) The media gets shit wrong often.
2) The media has been known to FLUFF stories to sell.
3) The FBI gets shit wrong often.
4) The FBI manipulate's stories for their own agendas.
5) The same thing with D.A. they pad indictments.
6) C.I. aren't always truthful
7) Alot of guys that flip tell stories how they WANT to remember them.


Based on the above couldn't anyone pick apart just about any post?

My point is alot of this is Speculation and Opinion which isn't right or wrong....
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 03:27 PM

Nick

I am at a loss what are the rules for acceptable proof?

Obiviolsy Giacomo knows some of these guys and he is posting some of his knowledge

How would he prove that?

If he is going to be challenged in that manner why would he bother posting?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:17 PM

@ Giacomo, no I meant Ciminelli, owns the construction company that got a shit load of state funding from the Buffalo Billion and was once a member of the 210 board. Best friends with Todaro at one point
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:24 PM

Its not that law enforcement is inept Nick, its that its not a priority and not everything gets busted or published. You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here but you act like because things are under the radar they mist fit your narrative that they are not active. Your articles you posted can easily be interpreted differently and law enforcement can easily be at a different point in crime fighting in Buffalo. Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:25 PM

well, if someone declares that the unions are corrupt free it must be 100% accurate, thanks for clearing that up
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:29 PM

And now your telling us the same principles that apply to younger generations joining the Hells Angels dont apply to younger generations joining the Mafia? Nicky, this is very speculative, is this based on your first hand knowledge and counseling sessions with younger members of both the Hells Angels and the Mafia?
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 04:52 PM

The Fed's have hard on's for big names like the 5 families, or philly because the boss and half his guys dont know what a low profile means. Buffalo is more like the Canadian clans than the American lcn, because they probably learned alot from each other. How often do Canadians wiseguys get busted? Not really too often, especially quiet guys like the sicilians in the GTA. And only till recently have we heard anything from guys like the violis or the musitanos, who are active, but there was barely info on them for years and years, only rumors and little things.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 06:37 PM

Giacomo, do you know the name of Bobby Panaros place he opened for a while? Was it just Panaros?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 07:19 PM

Sounds good guys. The FBI, Buffalo News, Niagara Falls Reporter. global news outlets, and the Laborers Union of North America don't know what they're talking about. Let's go with some guy on the forums who knows the inner workings of the crime family as well as the rackets going on and whose being made - because, wait for it, he lives in the area.....

Apparently law enforcement has actively been investigating and surveilling the Buffalo mob, and they know about the administration, the goings on in Canada, the rackets they're involved in, and who is being made. Wow, it seems like the police have a good impression of the illegal activities and crimes that the Todaro crime family is into. I'm sure they'll be making heaps of busts..... except, for the past 15 years there hasn't been a single bust. Also, even though law enforcement is actively surveilling and investigating the Todaro family, they have repeatedly said there is nothing left of the mob - and I mean repeatedly... that seems pretty strange.

Oh well, I'm sure Rooster has a valuable explanation to why law enforcement would feed misinformation to the press. Maybe it's a top secret investigation that is 15 years in the making? Well, the only flaw in that plan is the fact that Rooster claims everyone in the area knows about the existence of the Buffalo mob. Apparently it's an open secret. Everybody in the community knows about the Buffalo mob, apart from newsmen from the area - whose job it is to know what's going on in the community. Let's look at a brief, off-the-top of my head list of who believes the Buffalo mob exists, and who doesn't.

Who Believes It Exists:
Rooster, an alleged Buffalo native.
Giacomo Vacari, a guy from LA who has admitted lying in the past.

Who Doesn't Believe It Exists Anymore:
Ronald M. Fino, a longtime FBI informer against the Buffalo mob .
Scott M. Deitche, a prominent mob historian with six (and counting) books to his name.
Lee Coppola, a former federal prosecutor and news reporter who grew up among mobsters and their families on Buffalo's West Side.
Frank J. Clark, a former Erie County District Attorney
Andrew Goralski, a former Buffalo FBI agent who retired in 2007 after witnessing the death of the Buffalo mob.
Mike Hudson, a news reporter who had covered the Buffalo Mafia for about 15 years.
Dan Herbeck, a news reporter for the Buffalo News.


But some posters on this forum chose to believe Rooster and Giacomo, who have less than a sliver of evidence, over the mountain of prominent, high-ranking people I just mentioned. It boggles my brain.
But wait. As Bensonhurst pointed out, maybe the FBI, the DA and the news are mis-reporting the situation for their own twisted agenda. Except, here's the thing. The FBI has repeatedly complained they are not getting enough funding to fight organized crime, and have repeatedly reported that the mob is growing in strength (as a bid to get more federal funding). So the feds have no reason to lie and say that the Buffalo mafia is dead when it really isn't. Their agenda would be to say the Buffalo mafia is still around, and is prominent. In 1998, when the Buffalo mafia was reported as withering away and on its last legs, the feds still maintained there was a viable threat. So it's completely backwards to say that the feds are going to lie about the Buffalo mafia being dead when it's really active. The same also goes for the DA, whom Bensonhurst said could also have an agenda.
Also, newsmen LOVE a good Mafia piece. Mafia articles read and sell like wildfire. So there is really no reason for newsmen to try and say the Buffalo mob is dead when it isn't. And bear in mind that Rooster said the Buffalo community is well aware of the Mafia's existence. Surely then the Buffalo News and Niagara Falls Reporter would jump on the chance to report about it?
The notion that feds, police, DA, and news reporters all have a synchronized agenda to lie about the existence of the Buffalo mob is simply ridiculous.


According to Rooster, law enforcement is actively surveilling and investigating them but are also consistently denying the Buffalo mob's existance for no reason whatsoever, since such denials would hurt any chances of them increasing federal funding for organized crime, and would also hurt any federal case they are building. Also, I don't care what city in America you're from, Mafia families simply do not have the power or money to pay off a police force. Sure crime family members might be friends with a cop or two, but the Buffalo mob wasn't able to stop law enforcement in the 80s, 90s, and early 00s, and they certainly wouldn't be able to stop them at their diminished state now.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 07:47 PM

Man, Nicky from Tampa, you really got mad on that last post, you going to be ok?

Guys, believe what he says, it will make him feel better and in the meantime do not form your own opinions or think contrary to law enforcement or news reporters who are never wrong.

I believe you now Nicky, I cant believe Ive been misled for so long, I feel embarrassed
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 08:55 PM

Nick,

I don't know what to say.

You are choosing to take my posts out of context.

I have asked you direct questions that you have not responded to.

i am trying to better understand your position.

In my opinion there is no right or wrong just a perspective and/or opinion.

Where have I suggested everyone was in on a conspiracy to hide something?

In an attempt to learn the law of land I asked if something was written in the media in eyes of the board is that now fact?
I am just curious? And would like to know.

At the same time I was pointing out that if that is the case that theory is somewhat flawed.

I gave specific examples of when the media were just wrong in what.they wrote and/ or when the published information from the Gov't that was wrong.

Two quick examples are:

1) The Bonnanos being dead.
2) The actual existence of the mafia in general.by Hoover.

Ok so what I am doing here? I am saying that POSSIBLY the the Gov't and the media could have prematurely reported that Buffalo LCN was completely dead.

Again because they have gotten it wrong in the past.

I did NOT say they got it wrong only that MAYBE they did.

Yes that would be me speculating
And by you saying 100% they are dead would be you speculating

What makes you right and me wrong?

Why are you dismissing Rooster? As if he is lying?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 08:57 PM

Rooster,

Does Buffalo have a little Italy section?
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 09:02 PM

Nicky, look at Chicago, they are still active and how many busts come out from there, once in a blue moon. Lots of self proclaimed mob experts have no clue what's going on. I live in the GTA, where there's lots of stuff going on, it's one of biggest mob hotspots outside of Italy, and some people here don't even know what the mafia is, even though there's killings all the time in the news. You have to talk to the right people and be in the right places to know anything. Whatever you believe is your business, doesn't affect me.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/17/18 09:07 PM

Hertel Avenue in north buffalo is basically little Italy there's a good amount of Italian restaurants and businesses.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Giacomo, do you know the name of Bobby Panaros place he opened for a while? Was it just Panaros?


In Buffalo? No, I only know of Good Fellows in Las Vegas, and a partnership with Pieri in some restraunt in Las Vegas as silent partners.

Buffalo has two little Italy's, depending on who you talk to. The Old Little Italy on Canal St in West Buffalo, not there anymore, and the Little Italy on Hertel Ave in North Buffalo, were they have the festival. I was told that the food festival moved to the Harbor. The suburbs still traditionally leaves food out for the hungry in the first week of August.

Nicky, I have been to Los Angeles but not from there.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 03:58 AM

So all three of you guys are from the Buffalo area?

Rooster
Giacomo
Moscone
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 04:08 AM

I spoke to the owner of the About the mafia site
And asked him about the source from the article and he said the source was not reliable however, because some people were talking about it he used it in the post.

It would be hard to imagine they have 50 made guys and whatever amount of associates that would come.with 50 made guys and they could stay under the radar for a decade...

That would be way too hard

Other than that he felt right now maybe there is more there than was originally thought of
Probably something going on in Canada

He said no way are they what they were
And he also felt that they are not functioning as a family bases on what he knows today..

He also yes the guys that are left alot are active presently.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Man, Nicky from Tampa, you really got mad on that last post, you going to be ok?

Guys, believe what he says, it will make him feel better and in the meantime do not form your own opinions or think contrary to law enforcement or news reporters who are never wrong.

Don't believe explicitly what I say, but believe the facts.
Rooster, my problem with you is not that you have your own opinions. My problem with you is that you state your alleged information as fact, even though you've got absolutely nothing to back up what you say. For example, in your first post on this thread, you said that people that don't believe Buffalo has an active mafia family are "delusional," even though there is not a single credible source that points to Buffalo being active. There is plenty of evidence that Buffalo is not active, and no credible evidence that it is. You belittle people that disagree with your unfounded, disproven theory that Buffalo is still an active crime family. That's what frustrates me.
If people seriously believe Rooster is qualified to talk about the inner workings, the structure, the rackets, and the making ceremonies of a family that is confirmed by law enforcement to be inactive, just because he claims to be "from the area," then the bar is set incredibly low.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I believe you now Nicky, I cant believe Ive been misled for so long, I feel embarrassed

If you really think your alleged city-cop buddies aren't misleading you by telling you Buffalo is active and what rackets they're into, tell them to make a bust already after over 15 years of quiet.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nick,

I don't know what to say.

You are choosing to take my posts out of context.

I have asked you direct questions that you have not responded to.

Sorry, I'm sure you know this thread moves a mile a minute. Let me know what questions you've got and I'll try and answer them.
Originally Posted by BensonHURST

In my opinion there is no right or wrong just a perspective and/or opinion.

If you have an opinion or theory, that's fine. I am not dismissing your right to post your theories and speculations, but I don't think you should get offended when I reply with a counter-theory.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Where have I suggested everyone was in on a conspiracy to hide something?

It was a reply to this post of yours below:
"Anyone can really rip apart anything that someone else posts.

1) The media gets shit wrong often.
2) The media has been known to FLUFF stories to sell.
3) The FBI gets shit wrong often.
4) The FBI manipulate's stories for their own agendas.
5) The same thing with D.A. they pad indictments.
6) C.I. aren't always truthful
7) Alot of guys that flip tell stories how they WANT to remember them.


Based on the above couldn't anyone pick apart just about any post?

My point is alot of this is Speculation and Opinion which isn't right or wrong...."
- Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're suggesting that there is a chance that everybody happened to get it wrong. You're right, the media can get things wrong. But in the articles I have cited and posted, the media specifically referenced multiple prominent sources from both sides of the law. You're right, the media can fluff stories to sell. But, if that was the case in this scenario, surely they'd be trying to sell the possibility that the Mafia is still active in Buffalo? Surely, that would be a far more interesting narrative than listing off the things with killed the Mafia. If a prominent newspaper suggested that the Mafia in Buffalo still had the potential to be alive and kicking, wouldn't that story sell better? You are also right that the FBI gets shit wrong often, as well as manipulating stories for their own agendas. But the thing is, the FBI Organized Crime Task Force in Buffalo (or whatever its official name is) is always trying to secure more funding for themselves. Their agenda would be to try and identity as many potential OC threats as they can, so they can secure more funding from Washington. Your post about DA, and how they pad indictments, is true but the thing you need to understand is that there have been no indictments since 03, and even then that was a petty arson thing with Bifulco.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

In an attempt to learn the law of land I asked if something was written in the media in eyes of the board is that now fact?
I am just curious? And would like to know.

If there was one or two news stories saying that the Buffalo mob is dead, I would expect that there would be some reasonable doubt over accuracy. But this is law enforcement confirmed, DA-confirmed, prosecutor-confirmed mob expert-confirmed news that is being consistently reported that the Buffalo Mafia is dead as a doorknob.
Also, on the flipside, what makes anything Rooster says "fact." He has no proven track record and nothing he says has been proven right.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

At the same time I was pointing out that if that is the case that theory is somewhat flawed.

I gave specific examples of when the media were just wrong in what.they wrote and/ or when the published information from the Gov't that was wrong.

Two quick examples are:

1) The Bonnanos being dead.
2) The actual existence of the mafia in general.by Hoover.

Ok so what I am doing here? I am saying that POSSIBLY the the Gov't and the media could have prematurely reported that Buffalo LCN was completely dead.

When you say the Bonannos are dead, do you mean that their squad was disbanded after they were kicked of the Commission? Because I don't think anyone said they were completely dead, they were just a lot less of a nationwide threat because they were not part of the national racketeering conspiracy "Commission."
Also, the Hoover thing was 60 years ago. Hoover was the undisputed top dog of the relatively loose FBI, that wasn't really supervised to the extent they are now. Times have changed, it's an information age. Hoover denied the existance of the Mafia because it was too difficult to try and prosecute them, he preferred going after bank robbers and the like. Occasionally, the Mafia coincided with Hoover's goals, such as how Hoover had a "hard-on" for Colombo capo Sonny Franzese and his bank robbery crew. But today, the FBI wouldn't be able to deny such a large nationwide conspiracy like it could back then, and I doubt that if there was a Buffalo mafia that was corrupting unions and exerting influence across the city, I doubt the FBI could deny something like that without raising questions.
Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Again because they have gotten it wrong in the past.

I did NOT say they got it wrong only that MAYBE they did.

Yes that would be me speculating
And by you saying 100% they are dead would be you speculating

What makes you right and me wrong?

Your speculation is not wrong, per se. You are right, there is no way an opinion or speculation can be outright wrong. In the case of you saying that perhaps LE and the press are wrong, I offered a counter-argument. I don't think it's right for you to get offended by that.
But I am not really speculating when I say the Buffalo mafia is dead, because that has been backed up time and time again for over 15 years. When I offer reasons and opinions why young people might not want to join "the life" in Buffalo, then I am speculating, and I think I made that clear.
Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Why are you dismissing Rooster? As if he is lying?

I think I probably covered this in one of my above comments but, to reiterate, I am dismissing Rooster because I don't believe that some internet poster that claims to be in the know is more credible than the FBI, state police, district attorneys, other prosecutors, mob historians/experts, and former mafiosi-turned-informer. There are some glaring discrepancies in Rooster's story that I personally don't believe he has really been able to address. He claims that mafia in Buffalo are, today, being constantly surveilled and are under investigation. However, multiple law enforcement officials have said the complete opposite, as well as District Attorneys and federal prosecutors. Also, when I asked him why the Buffalo mob had not been busted in over 15 years, despite the fact that the family is (according to him) under surveillance/investigation, he brushed it off as "you don't know how this city works." It's not rocket science. When law enforcement investigate a racketeering conspiracy, there is usually a bust within five years. And, if Rooster is to be believed, we can expect that there are multiple investigations over the last 15 years. Somehow none of them yielded any arrests.


Originally Posted by Moscone65
Nicky, look at Chicago, they are still active and how many busts come out from there, once in a blue moon. Lots of self proclaimed mob experts have no clue what's going on.

There have been multiple busts in the past 5 years, and the FBI have recently made a pledge to begin cracking down on the Chicago Outfiit even harder. Rudy Fratto, Sammy Galioto, Pudgy Matassa. There are fewer busts in CHicago than in New York, but that is because of sheer numbers. Chicago has far, far less members than any of the five families. The DeCavs are similar, although they probably have more made members. The DeCavs are of course active but they get busted about as much, if not less, than Chicago.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Nicky, I have been to Los Angeles but not from there.

[/quote]
My bad, people have mentioned you are from LA if I recall correctly.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
I spoke to the owner of the About the mafia site
And asked him about the source from the article and he said the source was not reliable however, because some people were talking about it he used it in the post.

It would be hard to imagine they have 50 made guys and whatever amount of associates that would come.with 50 made guys and they could stay under the radar for a decade...

That would be way too hard

Other than that he felt right now maybe there is more there than was originally thought of
Probably something going on in Canada

He said no way are they what they were
And he also felt that they are not functioning as a family bases on what he knows today..

He also yes the guys that are left alot are active presently.


About the Mafia is a good website, and a good place to get Mafia news. I'm glad he was upfront with you and admitted his source might not have been accurate. I pretty much agree with him - there could be something going on in Canada (I don't really believe there is but I wouldn't bet money on it), but there probably isn't much going on in Buffalo aside from loose remnants.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 05:10 AM

I alsonspole to the author Tom Hunt he wrote the book Dicarlo the first family.in Buffalo
Interesting

I had no idea Buffalo was big back in the day.

Maggidino was the boss of bosses at one time.

Glad I was part of this back and forth I read some cool info.

He also has about the same opinion

That the guys that were a part of it were/are career criminals for the most part
And they are more than likely robbing/stealing today...

As for operating as a family he does not think so.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 05:11 AM

So what officially makes a family defunct?

When they stop receuiting?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 05:24 AM

Recruiting
Posted By: BillyBrizzi

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
So what officially makes a family defunct?

When they stop receuiting?


That is a very good question BH..

From what I've read the FBI considers a family defunct when they, for a considerable period of time, no longer have the required number of active made men to have a functioning structure/hierarchy and therefore are, for all intents and purposes, nothing more but a glorified crew.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
So what officially makes a family defunct?

When they stop receuiting?


Well, for many of the smaller families their books were closed by order of the commission and never reopened. So they didn't go defunct then and there, but by attrition they eventually died out.
I consider a family going defunct as when soldiers do not report to or kick up to a chain of command. If every soldier in the family is still active in gambling or loansharking or whatever, but operates completely independently and does not kick up to a capo or boss, then I consider that family defunct because the structure and chain of command is dead at that point.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 05:53 AM

Ok so even if they are not considered defunct when they stop recruiting
They will be defunct eventually with no new blood.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Ok so even if they are not considered defunct when they stop recruiting
They will be defunct eventually with no new blood.



Exactly.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
So all three of you guys are from the Buffalo area?

Rooster
Giacomo
Moscone


I have a big family and spent some time there. A poster made a comment earlier about GTA. I will add that GTA is the New York City in Canada, while Montreal is the Chicago of Canada. Hopefully that puts things in perspective.

@ Nicky, Bay Area California. These are the same people who accused of being another poster I am assuming. Well they can go **** their mothers and **** ******** while having **** **** coming out of their ******* ******* lips while having a ******* ******* **** smile.

What makes a family defunct is the federal and state budget. More money in terrorism than in Italian OC.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari


I have a big family and spent some time there. A poster made a comment earlier about GTA. I will add that GTA is the New York City in Canada, while Montreal is the Chicago of Canada. Hopefully that puts things in perspective.

@ Nicky, Bay Area California. These are the same people who accused of being another poster I am assuming. Well they can go **** their mothers and **** ******** while having **** **** coming out of their ******* ******* lips while having a ******* ******* **** smile.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

What makes a family defunct is the federal and state budget. More money in terrorism than in Italian OC.


What families in the US do you think are currently active?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 07:12 PM

Funny Nicky, you start your one post with "My problem with you isnt that you have your own opinions," as if anyone cares if you would have an internet blog problem with someone. But in following suit with your method...MY problem with you is that what people say on this blog doesnt need constant rebuttals and accusations of lying, because you cite DAs theories from 10 years ago and articles that are from supposed reliable journalists, because we know all journalists are reliable. NOT....Also you said fair enough when I stated lets see what happens with the Violi trial but you cant let go. You are the one who sounds desperate at this point and hell bent on trying to tell us that the family is extinct/defunct. As if you know anything other than what you read in internet articles. And yes, if you read the thread, Im from Buffalo, originally from Ft. Wayne.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 07:25 PM

Nicky, how do all the posters on the 5 families have all this inside information about members and nothing they say can be verified through articles or busts?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 07:47 PM

Rooster,

I guess the consensus is that if something is written
It is accepted as truth by the board.

The articles all say they are done meaning they aren't what they used to be.
Buffalo was 200 strong.

Them being done would be down to a crew or two.

I think the disconnect is:

Is with whatever is left
Nicky, is saying there is no formal structure

It's just the leftovers basically operating on there own.

At a crew or two is there a need for a boss, underboss, counselor and capos?


Which is all speculation I believe

Unless you are going to tell me you spoke to the guys that are left about the structure and they told you what it was??
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:14 PM

I understand they are not the almighty power they use to be.

I disagree, based on my understanding and talks within my circles that the family does have a hierarchy though. More of a ruling panel, (as I stated in my 2016 posts) top tier guys who have underlings and that there really arent any capos. The identifiers for the family are loose, similar to how Canada and Chicago have associates who hold power but no quote on quote made status. From what I have heard, tribute is paid, union corruption is still existent, gambling and shy are still big sources of money, the connection to Canada is as strong as its been in 20 years, I heard that many of them (that were able) came to both Falzones and Nicolettis funerals. What the mafia is today across every American city is different than what it use to be and per that reasoning and understanding of the evolution of the Mafia I think Buffalo is to still be considered an active family.


Also, from what I have heard, they are still under surveillance and local law enforcement still keeps tabs on them. Whether they, who are connected to a lot of these guys through family and friendships can build a case that shows RICO predicates us another matter altogether.

I have not spoken with any of the top tier guys lol. And even if I did, they could lie to whoever they want one way or another, and that includes to law enforcement, lawyers, investigators and journalists alike.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Funny Nicky, you start your one post with "My problem with you isnt that you have your own opinions," as if anyone cares if you would have an internet blog problem with someone.

If you don't care about internet posters opinions why are you on this forum? It's always the mark of a bad poster when their biggest response is "no one cares about your opinion."

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

But in following suit with your method...MY problem with you is that what people say on this blog doesnt need constant rebuttals and accusations of lying, because you cite DAs theories from 10 years ago and articles that are from supposed reliable journalists, because we know all journalists are reliable. NOT....

I cited over five prominent LE sources from May last year, for Chrissakes. Read what I have cited. If you can't even do basic research from what I have linked in this thread then I don't know what to say.
Also you can laugh off my articles all you want, but at least I can cite SOMETHING. I have not stated any facts that are not backed up. You, meanwhile, have zero evidence to support your theory and plenty of evidence against it.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Also you said fair enough when I stated lets see what happens with the Violi trial but you cant let go. You are the one who sounds desperate at this point and hell bent on trying to tell us that the family is extinct/defunct. As if you know anything other than what you read in internet articles. And yes, if you read the thread, Im from Buffalo, originally from Ft. Wayne.

If your drunk city cops that you chat up in bars know so much about the so-called Todaro crime family, and everyone in the community supposedly knows about the Todaro crime family, then tell them to talk to the Buffalo News, DAs, federal prosecutors and the FBI because, according to your theory, everyone in Buffalo knows about the Buffalo mafia about from law enforcement, prosecutors and news reporters. Go figure

If I point out huge holes in your theory, perhaps you should address them and explain them instead of cutting me off by saying "no one cares what you have to say." Considering there's eight pages in this thread, it seems that you've cared about my opinion until now. What caused the change of heart? Also can you speak for Bensonhurst, Moscone, and all the others who have discussed this on the thread?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:38 PM

Ok I believe you I do not think Nick, does.

It all.makes sense to me.

I personally have a hard time believing that someone would come o her and make stuff up.

1) Eventually the truth will come out
2) Who the he'll has the time to do that.

With stuff like this time will tell.

It would.help if you could get a copy of Canada's version of the indictment that should have a story of his activities.

L.E. I believe stated they were internationally connected drug dealers.
If Violi is from Buffalo and he is internationally connected drug dealer

You think you could get a could get a copy of the charges.against them?
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:45 PM

Half the young people in the italian community in Toronto don't know that the mob still exists, let alone the non Italian community. And alot of stuff goes on here. All they care about is rappers and things like that. Imagine how much people would possibly know about a smaller, low key buffalo family, In a city like buffalo, which is smaller and overshadowed by nearby Toronto and NYC.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:45 PM

Like I said 100x before and answered all your questions time and time again. What questions havent I answered of yours yet?

And not caring about what another blogger says is based on the accusation of me lying, which is incorrect. To believe or not to believe is every bloggers choice. But your interpretation is just that, an interpretation

So you dont think that there are corrupt cops in every city in America? You think there is no such thing as inside information and you believe that law enforcement and journalists always get the story 100% accurate? You believe the current members have no underlings and dont give orders and plan and execute scams alongside other organized criminals. You think that no young Italian Americans would ever be willing to join an organization, yet EVERY other generation across the world has done so for generations. No one is willing to kick up tribute in Buffalo, there is no book ran by any members, no shy, no fraud, no union corruption when the whole union is run by connected guys still?

Its going to take another bust that is within the Buffalo city limits for you to believe they are viable, I get that, but for me, its just not the case.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Ok I believe you I do not think Nick, does.

It all.makes sense to me.

I personally have a hard time believing that someone would come o her and make stuff up.

1) Eventually the truth will come out
2) Who the he'll has the time to do that.

People have been lying and pretending they have inside knowledge since the beginning of Mafia threads. It goes on a lot. I don't know why people do it, but trolls are active in just about every Mafia forum, with varying degrees of sophistication.
What about Rooster makes his word, and his word alone, believeable? Because he's from the area? That's it? If he addresses the big problems with his story, that would go a long way for him to be more believable.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

It would.help if you could get a copy of Canada's version of the indictment that should have a story of his activities.

L.E. I believe stated they were internationally connected drug dealers.
If Violi is from Buffalo and he is internationally connected drug dealer

You think you could get a could get a copy of the charges.against them?



The Violis father was a Bonanno-Montreal capo, and they are from Montreal. After their father was shot up when the boys were 8 and 11 years old, they moved to Hamilton and rose in the underworld. They were close to their Buffalo crime family member grandfather, Giacomo Luppino. The Violis are reportedly rooted in the Bonanno crime family, not the Todaro crime family.

I do not have a copy of the indictment, and I do not know who the Todaro members charged are.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:54 PM

Well lets all put two and two together then, imagine that Carfagna is probably one of them
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:55 PM

And we can easily say you are a troll for believing everything you read to be gospel
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:56 PM

How is it that posters about NYC have a bunch of inside information?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 08:58 PM

This coming from the guy who believe Localzo to be the boss of a family that cease to exist for 30 years
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 09:07 PM

Ive spoke my opinion, this thread is just the same argument over and over. And, it also goes back to put it onto the Buffalo thread that your over two years late on joining, to merge with that one. I appreciate everyones input.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 09:11 PM

Like you said bud, he won't believe anything about Buffalo till an indictment, and even then maybe he will say that there's no structure, it's just loose remenants like KC, ect unpess they specifically mention ranks and all that.El Everyone thinks differently i suppose.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 09:21 PM

Wasn't a cop just indicted for running plates
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 09:23 PM

Moscone you are from Buffalo as Well?

Are you seeing similar activity that Rooster is?
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/18/18 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Ok I believe you I do not think Nick, does.

It all.makes sense to me.

I personally have a hard time believing that someone would come o her and make stuff up.

1) Eventually the truth will come out
2) Who the he'll has the time to do that.

People have been lying and pretending they have inside knowledge since the beginning of Mafia threads. It goes on a lot. I don't know why people do it, but trolls are active in just about every Mafia forum, with varying degrees of sophistication.
What about Rooster makes his word, and his word alone, believeable? Because he's from the area? That's it? If he addresses the big problems with his story, that would go a long way for him to be more believable.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

It would.help if you could get a copy of Canada's version of the indictment that should have a story of his activities.

L.E. I believe stated they were internationally connected drug dealers.
If Violi is from Buffalo and he is internationally connected drug dealer

You think you could get a could get a copy of the charges.against them?



The Violis father was a Bonanno-Montreal capo, and they are from Montreal. After their father was shot up when the boys were 8 and 11 years old, they moved to Hamilton and rose in the underworld. They were close to their Buffalo crime family member grandfather, Giacomo Luppino. The Violis are reportedly rooted in the Bonanno crime family, not the Todaro crime family.

I do not have a copy of the indictment, and I do not know who the Todaro members charged are.


Paolo Violi was with Buffalo and Luppino before he moved to Montreal in 1963 as ordered to avoid John Papalia and Paul Volpe. He killed Natale Brigante on Stefano Magaddino and Giacomo Luppino orders. The Cotronis took him into their ranks and he served as a spy for Buffalo and Luppino to keep tabs on the Montreal crew and information on Stefano Magaddino cousin Joe Bonanno movements in his family. Bonanno was expanding rapidly since the mid 1950's, and Magaddino had Gaspar DiGregorio in New York keep tabs on Bonanno, but Magaddino was pretty much in the dark at what the Bonannos were up to in Montreal since John Papalia moved to Hamilton from Montreal. It's funny, that you can trace John Papalia and Paolo Violi to the Magaddino crime family when they started out. John Papalia from 1940's, and Paolo Violi from the 1950's. The Papalia and Violi families have roots to both Bonanno and Buffalo crime families.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/19/18 01:37 AM

I just came across the other Buffalo Thread

Giacomo why do these guys have it out for you???
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/19/18 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Like I said 100x before and answered all your questions time and time again. What questions havent I answered of yours yet?

First question: Which busts were in 2005, 2010, and 2012?
For a 2010 bust, you cited the arrest of a former associate, Cohen, although there is simply zero evidence that the crimes committed were connected to any sort of OC or the Buffalo mafia.
Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

So you dont think that there are corrupt cops in every city in America?

Of course I do. But not on such a scale that the corruption will mean there are no busts. You are saying that Buffalo is still a lot smaller than it once was, but that they are able to orchestrate city-wide corruption to prevent any cops or DAs making busts?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You think there is no such thing as inside information and you believe that law enforcement and journalists always get the story 100% accurate?

Of course LE and journalists might not get it 100% accurate. But you are implying that all of the area's local media outlets, and all top-ranking LE officials, are getting it 0% accurate. That is a big difference.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You believe the current members have no underlings and dont give orders and plan and execute scams alongside other organized criminals.

Perhaps some members managed to keep their rackets intact, and pass it on to a younger generation just like the Scagliones did in Tampa. But I don't think it is on behalf of a fully-fledged Mafia family where tribute is being kicked up and there is an admin in place keeping everyone in line.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You think that no young Italian Americans would ever be willing to join an organization,

Young Italian-Americans might be willing to join an OC organization, but I don't believe there is a Buffalo crime family/Todaro crime family that they are willing to join or that they are able to join because said family doesn't exist anymore.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

yet EVERY other generation across the world has done so for generations.

So far from the truth. At the mob's peak, there were around 26 Mafia families in America. Now there are around 10. So when you say "EVERY other generation across the world has done so for generations" that is a simple, glaring misstatement.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

No one is willing to kick up tribute in Buffalo,

Why would they willingly give up money to some old has-beens with no power or muscle behind them.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

there is no book ran by any members, no shy, no fraud,

There may very well be. But not on behalf of a Buffalo crime family/Todaro crime family. Perhaps a small number of members maintained their rackets, but independently. Here's a nice quote by Ron Fino (whom who view as a credible source, right?) which sums it up.
“There are a few remnants of the mob that still exist in Buffalo,” said Ronald Fino, a former union leader who helped the FBI investigate the local mob, “but it’s not the same.”

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

no union corruption when the whole union is run by connected guys still?

Unlike the 1990s, there are no made members serving any sort of union position nowadays, and any subservient guys that worked on behalf of the mob are also not in the unions anymore. The unions were Buffalo mob-free by 2006.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
How is it that posters about NYC have a bunch of inside information?

There are a select handful of posters whose words have been backed up later on. For example, recently bronx has been proven right a couple times, as well as some other posters in the past. There are also some posters with alleged inside knowledge who have been disproven.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
This coming from the guy who believe Localzo to be the boss of a family that cease to exist for 30 years

30 years? Where the hell did you get that from?
Also, do you remember how Billy D'Elia was the boss of the Bufalino crime family when he was arrested but feds admitted there was no organization under him? That's because he was the boss IN TITLE ALONE. He never officially stepped down as boss, because there was no reason to. He never "officially" retired from being boss. Neither did Vincent LoScalzo, unless (and I am speculating on this next part), he officially ceded the family to the Gambinos as has been alleged.
You know how, when a wiseguy is inducted, he is inducted for life? And even if he retires, or flips, he is still a made member? Even if the family goes extinct, that person is still a made member. The same can apply to being a boss. I have explained this to you before. How is it that hard to comprehend?
To clarify, the Trafficante crime family is defunct as an organization. Since Vincent LoScalzo was the last known boss, the feds could probably get away with calling him the boss, just like they did with Billy D'Elia.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/19/18 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
I just came across the other Buffalo Thread

Giacomo why do these guys have it out for you???



I am just likable.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/19/18 04:04 PM

Giacomo,

Anyway to can directly answer Nicky's concerns bullet point.
1) _____________
2) _____________

I am pretty sure no one comes on here to argue.

I mean ate getting your info from somewhere
If it is from a book some of it, just disclose the book.

Or via any sort of research.

Why not just disclose???

I think everyone understands that if some is coming from a source you would rather not identify.

But you have a plethora of info you are going into major detail here.

I think if you would be able to put this to rest.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/19/18 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Giacomo,

Anyway to can directly answer Nicky's concerns bullet point.
1) _____________
2) _____________

I am pretty sure no one comes on here to argue.

I mean ate getting your info from somewhere
If it is from a book some of it, just disclose the book.

Or via any sort of research.

Why not just disclose???

I think everyone understands that if some is coming from a source you would rather not identify.

But you have a plethora of info you are going into major detail here.

I think if you would be able to put this to rest.


Are you asking me? Or Giacomo? Or Rooster?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 12:29 AM

Rooster?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 02:01 AM

I was asking Giacomo
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 02:24 AM

Nick about Rooster

I have to go back and the read the specific post where he talks about
Todaro Jr and his son I think hi sname is Anthony and about the Pizza shop

And how he goes into detail about how the younger generation are vying for the sons friendship and attennition

Also, how there is a crew as he describes of young Italian males that all want to be apart of that life and culture.
Would those wanna-bee's kick up, YESS, to be a part of something bigger.....

I have to say that how it used to be locally around here you would have these crews back in the day they were called gangs we called thems crews.

I.E. the Bath Ave Boys (Bonnano), 20th Ave Boys (Columbo), Bay Parkway Boys (Columbo), Ave U Boys (Bonnano), 18th Ave (Bonnano,Lucheese), Ft. Hamilton Boys (Columbo), that was just Bensonhurst and Bath-Beach Brooklyn, and there were plenty more.

A lot of made guys came out those crews, that's how the older guys would groom them and teach them about the life.

Queens you had I forget the Young Guns and the Gianni Boys,
Bronx, Tangle Wood Boys

Etc

You had a made guy who was the leader of the crew/gang
That was the recruitment pool

What would happen you would have:

1) The made guy
2) Wanna bee's (Younger Generation)

The made guys had the money, power, respect and girls.

The wanna bee's would want all that

The wanna bee's would do just about anything to get the money, power and the girls...
Rob, Steal, Murder.... ETC

The only way he would know that would be to somewhat be a part of that or atleast be around that.

I am older now so I don't see much of that anymore locally however, I am sure it still exists to a much smaller degree.

That was the LCN recruitment pool for a very long time, not the only one, but is was very common one.

What I am saying is I think Rooster is legit
Atleast that part of what he is telling...

How else could he go into such detail about all that?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nick about Rooster

What I am saying is I think Rooster is legit
Atleast that part of what he is telling...

How else could he go into such detail about all that?



How does that back up his claim at all? No disrespect, but I really don't see your point.

Let's say there's a young crew/farm team under Anthony Todaro that runs around killing, robbing, stealing, etc. as you mentioned. If this crew, or crews like it all across Buffalo, have been going strong for over a decade, then it is practically impossible that they wouldn't get caught. The crews you mentioned in NY were, naturally, terrible at dodging the cops since they were a bunch of wannabe kids doing dumb, hardcore shit to prove themselves. Some of them might have been smarter than others, and gotten themselves made, but these crews usually tore themselves apart by getting caught really quickly, and flipping really quickly. A 21-year-old kid facing life for murder is going to crack under pressure.

The Bath Avenue Boys either got life in prison or flipped. Fabrizio the Herder was the only one who got himself made. When they flipped, they were able to take down Bonanno consigliere Anthony Spero.
20th Avenue Crew... think Joey Caves Competiello was part of that one right? Forgive me if I'm wrong. Anyways, he was made but later flipped.
Bay Parkway Boys... Tommy McLaughlin was a member of that crew, and he flipped.
Avenue U Boys had Frank Lino, who flipped even after he became a high-ranking Bonanno.
Tanglewood Boys all flipped or got life.
The boss and 27 Giannini Boys got hefty sentences, with boss Vito Guzzo pleading guilty to 5 murders.
Young Guns had a bunch of guys get life, including Ronnie.

You're telling me that wouldn't happen in Buffalo?


Also, I would like Rooster to reply to my post illustrating the full list of questions I have about his Buffalo theory.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari


I have a big family and spent some time there. A poster made a comment earlier about GTA. I will add that GTA is the New York City in Canada, while Montreal is the Chicago of Canada. Hopefully that puts things in perspective.

@ Nicky, Bay Area California. These are the same people who accused of being another poster I am assuming. Well they can go **** their mothers and **** ******** while having **** **** coming out of their ******* ******* lips while having a ******* ******* **** smile.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

What makes a family defunct is the federal and state budget. More money in terrorism than in Italian OC.


What families in the US do you think are currently active?


The 5 New York City families naturally, Chicago, Philadelphia, New England, New Jersey, Detroit, and Buffalo. Those are still families in your definition.

Under those families the families that operates with just a Boss or should say has a Capo are Kansas City, Milwaukee, and Tampa.

Then there are families that still has members that do business with other families, but are no longer a family or even a crew. These are Los Angeles, Rockford, Cleveland and New Orleans.

Then there is the totally defunct or dead families such as San Jose, Denver, Dallas ect.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari


I have a big family and spent some time there. A poster made a comment earlier about GTA. I will add that GTA is the New York City in Canada, while Montreal is the Chicago of Canada. Hopefully that puts things in perspective.

@ Nicky, Bay Area California. These are the same people who accused of being another poster I am assuming. Well they can go **** their mothers and **** ******** while having **** **** coming out of their ******* ******* lips while having a ******* ******* **** smile.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

What makes a family defunct is the federal and state budget. More money in terrorism than in Italian OC.


What families in the US do you think are currently active?


The 5 New York City families naturally, Chicago, Philadelphia, New England, New Jersey, Detroit, and Buffalo. Those are still families in your definition.

Under those families the families that operates with just a Boss or should say has a Capo are Kansas City, Milwaukee, and Tampa.

Then there are families that still has members that do business with other families, but are no longer a family or even a crew. These are Los Angeles, Rockford, Cleveland and New Orleans.

Then there is the totally defunct or dead families such as San Jose, Denver, Dallas ect.


Tampa??? I would say that fits under your third category of "families that still have members that do business with other families but are no longer a family or even a crew." There is no viable crew there with a boss or capo.

I haven't heard anything about Milwaukee still active but I don't know enough about to comment. KC is supposedly still active on a very, very, very minor level according to Gangster Report.

Also, naturally I disagree on Buffalo but that's not news to you.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Giacomo,

Anyway to can directly answer Nicky's concerns bullet point.
1) _____________
2) _____________

I am pretty sure no one comes on here to argue.

I mean ate getting your info from somewhere
If it is from a book some of it, just disclose the book.

Or via any sort of research.

Why not just disclose???

I think everyone understands that if some is coming from a source you would rather not identify.

But you have a plethora of info you are going into major detail here.

I think if you would be able to put this to rest.


I am scratching my head, as those are not directed at me, but will answer the first question, and part of the second question.
2005? I think Rooster means 2006, when Buffalo associate and enforcer of L.A. Boys Clayton Green was arrested on drug charges. He is a force to reckon with, and the Painters Union is still mobbed up. Also caught up in the arrest was Bufalo hang around Jeremy Scott who was based in the Niagara Falls area. 2010, was when Brian Cohen an associate on record with Sonny was arrested on gambling charges and operating a wireroom. 2012? Michael Wilson who rubbed shoulders with members of Buffalo but I see no proof that Giglia or Tavano were involved. Rooster said that the cop arrested was good friends with Victor Sansanese.
Second answer, I can only speak on local 91, Niagara. There are a some people there with connections to the Nicolettis, and the Papalias. Local 210, don't know, as they really did kick a lot of people of the Buffalo family out.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari


I have a big family and spent some time there. A poster made a comment earlier about GTA. I will add that GTA is the New York City in Canada, while Montreal is the Chicago of Canada. Hopefully that puts things in perspective.

@ Nicky, Bay Area California. These are the same people who accused of being another poster I am assuming. Well they can go **** their mothers and **** ******** while having **** **** coming out of their ******* ******* lips while having a ******* ******* **** smile.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

What makes a family defunct is the federal and state budget. More money in terrorism than in Italian OC.


What families in the US do you think are currently active?


The 5 New York City families naturally, Chicago, Philadelphia, New England, New Jersey, Detroit, and Buffalo. Those are still families in your definition.

Under those families the families that operates with just a Boss or should say has a Capo are Kansas City, Milwaukee, and Tampa.

Then there are families that still has members that do business with other families, but are no longer a family or even a crew. These are Los Angeles, Rockford, Cleveland and New Orleans.

Then there is the totally defunct or dead families such as San Jose, Denver, Dallas ect.


Tampa???


Tampa is still active but only has less then ten made members and 30 to 50 associates. It operates as a crew rather then a family.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Giacomo,

Anyway to can directly answer Nicky's concerns bullet point.
1) _____________
2) _____________

I am pretty sure no one comes on here to argue.

I mean ate getting your info from somewhere
If it is from a book some of it, just disclose the book.

Or via any sort of research.

Why not just disclose???

I think everyone understands that if some is coming from a source you would rather not identify.

But you have a plethora of info you are going into major detail here.

I think if you would be able to put this to rest.


I am scratching my head, as those are not directed at me, but will answer the first question, and part of the second question.
2005? I think Rooster means 2006, when Buffalo associate and enforcer of L.A. Boys Clayton Green was arrested on drug charges. He is a force to reckon with, and the Painters Union is still mobbed up. Also caught up in the arrest was Bufalo hang around Jeremy Scott who was based in the Niagara Falls area. 2010, was when Brian Cohen an associate on record with Sonny was arrested on gambling charges and operating a wireroom. 2012? Michael Wilson who rubbed shoulders with members of Buffalo but I see no proof that Giglia or Tavano were involved. Rooster said that the cop arrested was good friends with Victor Sansanese.
Second answer, I can only speak on local 91, Niagara. There are a some people there with connections to the Nicolettis, and the Papalias. Local 210, don't know, as they really did kick a lot of people of the Buffalo family out.


I may not agree with everything there, but I will say your answer is a lot more sensible than Rooster's in my opinion.

What about the questions I asked shortly before? They were directed at Rooster but since he's gone quiet maybe you can shed some light.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 10:48 PM

Nick

I didn't say that backed up his claim about Buffalo being a family

In my opinion.

I was saying that for him to know what he knows he would have had to either:

1) Be a part of it.
2) Be around it
3) Know someone that was and is telling him all these details.

How else could he go into that much detail.

I am verifying that what he is describing about the young crew how the act etc, sounds feasible
Based on my personal experiences

I do not see how he could just pull those details out of the thin air.

That's all I was saying

To me it seems like all 3 of you guys know so much
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/20/18 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nick

I didn't say that backed up his claim about Buffalo being a family

In my opinion.

I was saying that for him to know what he knows he would have had to either:

1) Be a part of it.
2) Be around it
3) Know someone that was and is telling him all these details.

How else could he go into that much detail.

I am verifying that what he is describing about the young crew how the act etc, sounds feasible
Based on my personal experiences

I do not see how he could just pull those details out of the thin air.

That's all I was saying

To me it seems like all 3 of you guys know so much



There were almost no details at all to the post in question. All Rooster said is that wannabe wiseguys like to hang around Anthony Todaro. No details other than that, apart from vague references into typical mob crimes they commit.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/21/18 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Tampa is still active but only has less then ten made members and 30 to 50 associates. It operates as a crew rather then a family.


I don't think there are any made guys in Tampa under 65. Don't think they operate as a crew with a capo/boss. Whatever was left hooked up with the Gambinos in the late 90s/early 00s.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/21/18 02:55 AM

You know what I cant even find the post
I thought he went into more detail then that
Something about younger guys are fighting for his friendship etc
That they are like a whole crew

As I go back and read older posts seems a bunch of other posters besides you were really getting on these two guys

I didn't know that when I first started here

I kinda jumped in and thought maybe you were not seeing their side of things and was just trying to maybe have you look at it from a "WHAT IF" scenario.

Your not even saying anything is Bull-S--t
You are saying its NOT verified

Time will tell

If these guys are right and all they say that is going on is going on it will eventually come out
Even if the Feds do not know about today

They will very shortly and some indictments will be coming out of there eventually.

Just because something or someone is off the radar today
Does not mean they will always be off

This back and forth shit can go on forever

I think it might be time to agree to disagree and just move on.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/21/18 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
You know what I cant even find the post
I thought he went into more detail then that
Something about younger guys are fighting for his friendship etc
That they are like a whole crew

As I go back and read older posts seems a bunch of other posters besides you were really getting on these two guys

I didn't know that when I first started here

I kinda jumped in and thought maybe you were not seeing their side of things and was just trying to maybe have you look at it from a "WHAT IF" scenario.

Your not even saying anything is Bull-S--t
You are saying its NOT verified

Time will tell

If these guys are right and all they say that is going on is going on it will eventually come out
Even if the Feds do not know about today

They will very shortly and some indictments will be coming out of there eventually.

Just because something or someone is off the radar today
Does not mean they will always be off

This back and forth shit can go on forever

I think it might be time to agree to disagree and just move on.


Yeah, I'm trying not to accuse anyone of being liars, but I don't like the fact that Rooster puts things very bluntly and states everything as if it is a fact. E.g. he'll say some guy has some rackets going, I'll say there is no proof, no he doesn't, it's not possible, etc., etc., and he'll just respond with "yes he does." If he really has sources telling him about this sort of stuff, then congratulations - I have no way of knowing if he does or not. But, if what he's saying is true, he can respond to the questions I asked on Page 8 of this thread. Some of these are questions I've been asking throughout the length of this thread. If he knows what he knows, surely he can answer them.

EDIT: Giacomo and Rooster aren't really a united front. Not that it helps my argument in any way, but it shouldn't be phrased as a "Nicky v. Rooster & Giacomo" scenario, since the two are also disagreeing on some things.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/21/18 06:09 AM

LOL noted

Quick Question from a previous post

If you are not from around my way
How do you know what you know about all these guys from Brooklyn?

I don't think all those details are in books anywhere?

Just curious I mean you were 98% correct

Joey Caves from BPB
Tommy Mclaughlin from KHB-West
Lil Dino Saricino 20th ave
Robert Arena BPB

Is there a chart somewhere

There seems to be a chart for everything
LOL
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/21/18 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
LOL noted

Quick Question from a previous post

If you are not from around my way
How do you know what you know about all these guys from Brooklyn?

I don't think all those details are in books anywhere?

Just curious I mean you were 98% correct

Joey Caves from BPB
Tommy Mclaughlin from KHB-West
Lil Dino Saricino 20th ave
Robert Arena BPB

Is there a chart somewhere

There seems to be a chart for everything
LOL



Don't think there are charts for these street gangs. Most of these guys have to recount their lives of crime after they flip if they're testifying at trial. Defense lawyers like to give them run-of-the-mill questions to show the jury what career criminals, cheats, liars and pieces of shit they are.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nicky, why would the DOJ 1) create a name never used before in the "Todaro Organized Crime Family"? and elude to jts existence if it was current? They would be be more nostalgic and historical about it. Theres no other reason to use it unless it is active, even if they mean it is a former shell of itself.


The feds have actually used the Todaro crime family to describe the Buffalo mob since 1989.
http://buffalonews.com/1989/07/26/t...ily-reputedly-spins-a-wide-web-of-crime/
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 06:46 AM

Third question- I am saying 2012/2013 by Falzone, with New York (Manhattan and Brooklyn) supporting it.

Todaro name actually popped up before the feds used it, by Buffalo PD, and Erie Sheriffs department I think around 1987.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Third question- I am saying 2012/2013 by Falzone, with New York (Manhattan and Brooklyn) supporting it.


Todaro name actually popped up before the feds used it, by Buffalo PD, and Erie Sheriffs department I think around 1987. [/quote]

Appreciate the response, although I can't say I buy it. Don't take that the wrong way but I'm an evidence-based man.
What do you mean "Manhattan and Brooklyn" supporting it? Care to elaborate?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 12:17 PM

Im still here guys, Nicky is really trying his hardest.

One can only write the same thing over and over and over.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 12:21 PM

Nicky gets mad when other people dont agree with him and simultaneously poke holes in his story. My evidence is based on word of mouth nothing more. I do not have affidavits from members or DAs or journalists recanting what they said or wrote 10 years ago.

Nicky wants us to believe that Localzo is still the boss of Tampa though, right
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 07:47 PM

The author of Thomas Hunt emailed me a copy of his book "The first Crime Family I Buffalo"
It covers up to 2012

Alot of details about Todaro
Says Piere went to get commission approval for him to take over as official boss

Todaro ended up getting it

They rip apart that Fino basically he was like Walt Disney making up stories his own brother said he was full of it.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 07:48 PM

Sorry on my phone again
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 08:02 PM

I can send it if anyone who was wants a copy
I personally didn't realize Buffalo was that big of a deal back in the day

They were just about as big as most of the 5 families.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Im still here guys, Nicky is really trying his hardest.

One can only write the same thing over and over and over.


I'm writing the same things over and over because you refuse to answer my questions. I'm not just blatantly disagreeing, there are some serious plot holes with your story that you haven't addressed. If your story is legit, it shouldn't be that difficult at all. Talk to your city cops, I'm sure they can shed some light. I'll post them again in case your confused, so you've got no excuses to keep denying them. If you've answered any of my questions, show me where you've answered them. And no, saying "You don't know how things work in Buffalo" is not a valid answer.

Here are the questions:
First question: Which busts were in 2005, 2010, and 2012?
For a 2010 bust, you cited the arrest of a former associate, Cohen, although there is simply zero evidence that the crimes committed were connected to any sort of OC or the Buffalo mafia.
Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?


Also, in this initial post, I offered some rebuttals to your statements which you haven't responded to either.
Posted By: thebigfella

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/22/18 09:09 PM

Nickyfromtampa is no joke!
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/23/18 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Nicky wants us to believe that Localzo is still the boss of Tampa though, right


I've explained this to you twice before. Should I dumb it down even more?

Well, you see, when a family stops operating, the members don't go through an un-making ceremony to mark their retirement from OC. They don't say "Hey, we're done with this, let's all get together and relinquish our ranks officially." You still with me? So, there is no official point where Vincent LoScalzo stopped being boss. He does not necessarily "step down." He does not say "Hey fellas, I'm retiring, who wants to take over?" Because, eventually, the last person stops kicking up tribute to him. According to the FBI, for clarity purposes, he is still "the boss." Although the family of which he is the boss of, is no longer active. He is not, at this point, a "soldier." His last known title was "boss."

If a tree dies, and all the leaves fall off, the tree is still called a tree, although it's life processes are no longer working. It's no longer collecting sunlight, it's roots are no longer working. But it's still a tree.

How do we know the FBI follows this logic? Because, when Billy D'Elia of the Bufalino crime family was indicted in 2006, the feds confirmed that the Bufalino crime family was no longer active. But, Billy D'Elia was still referred to as the official boss of the Bufalino crime family. Because even though he was no longer collecting tribute, or commanding over a crime family, he was still (in name alone) the boss. Trees don't stop being trees when they stop collecting sunlight, or collecting water, or growing. They simply become 'dead' trees. In this case, the Bufalino crime family was a 'dead' family, but it's boss was still designated the boss.

I hope you understood that. Clearly my other two explanations were a little bit too complicated for you. Please, if you have any queries about this scenario, or what happens to trees when they die, let me know.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/23/18 05:36 AM

This might be a good time to agree to disagree
And move on
????
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/23/18 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
This might be a good time to agree to disagree
And move on
????


There's some fundamental questions that I'd like Rooster to answer first.

If he answers those questions, and he plugs the gaping holes in his story, then we can disagree and move on. If he is telling the 100% truth, then these questions shouldn't be hard. Rooster is quick to call people delusional for not believing him, but slow to respond to actual, logical questions about his baseless tale of mob activity in Buffalo. And, when he's especially stumped on questions, he resorts to commenting about how mad I'm getting, whilst at the same time dodging the questions even more.

Not only is Rooster failing to gape these holes, he's also been caught out on a few lies along the way. Such as how he claimed "the FBI and RCMP acknowledging its structure after the huge bust" when not only did the FBI and RCMP NOT acknowledge the family's structure, they also didn't even specify who in Canada was arrested as a Todaro crime family member. He also claimed "2 reputed younger soldiers from Rochester got caught with drugs and guns in Ithaca. It was online at one point" even though such a bust never happened and was never online. He also claimed that, until 2017, the FBI had never used the term "Todaro crime family" even though I provided a link from 1989 which calls the family by that name.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/23/18 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Third question- I am saying 2012/2013 by Falzone, with New York (Manhattan and Brooklyn) supporting it.


Todaro name actually popped up before the feds used it, by Buffalo PD, and Erie Sheriffs department I think around 1987.


Appreciate the response, although I can't say I buy it. Don't take that the wrong way but I'm an evidence-based man.
What do you mean "Manhattan and Brooklyn" supporting it? Care to elaborate?[/quote]

He has some great connections with New York.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/23/18 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Third question- I am saying 2012/2013 by Falzone, with New York (Manhattan and Brooklyn) supporting it.


Todaro name actually popped up before the feds used it, by Buffalo PD, and Erie Sheriffs department I think around 1987.


Appreciate the response, although I can't say I buy it. Don't take that the wrong way but I'm an evidence-based man.
What do you mean "Manhattan and Brooklyn" supporting it? Care to elaborate?


He has some great connections with New York.

[/quote]

Yes but what do you mean "Manhattan and Brooklyn" supporting him? Do you mean the the Five Families' Manhattan and Brooklyn crews supported him? And not Queens, Bronx, SI and elsewhere? Just trying to get a better understanding of what you're trying to say.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 04:11 AM

Rooster, you still here? These plot holes aren't gonna plug themselves.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 05:03 AM

Capos in the Bonanno and Genovese crime families.
Posted By: WhackWhack

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 05:04 AM

There is a Ny times article during the commission trial they played tapes talking about the Buffalo family someone was mad Todaro was gonna be boss and Fat Tony said the commission is gonna deal with it tell them your dealing with the big boys etc etc. junior Persico personally supported the anti todaro faction
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 08:24 AM

WhackWhack, that was in 1984 when Joe Pieri from Buffalo and John Tronolone from Cleveland went to see Fat Tony. Persico tapped Joe Pieri to be boss through Donnie Shacks, with support from Tony Ducks. The real issue was Joe Todaro Jr. Running around with submachine guns when Big Paul issued the no violence policy through Giacomo Luppino, during the selection process of Buffalo Boss. Fat Tony felt that Persico was pushing Buffalo to war and was cooling the Snakes engine's. Big Paul and The Chin decided on Todaro Sr. Becoming boss. Fat Tony reminded Joe Pieri to inform the factions of Buffalo Pieri/Todaro that the Commission will decide. Interestingly, Joe Todaro Sr. decided to spend some vacation time in New York City after that meeting.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
WhackWhack, that was in 1984 when Joe Pieri from Buffalo and John Tronolone from Cleveland went to see Fat Tony. Persico tapped Joe Pieri to be boss through Donnie Shacks, with support from Tony Ducks. The real issue was Joe Todaro Jr. Running around with submachine guns when Big Paul issued the no violence policy through Giacomo Luppino, during the selection process of Buffalo Boss. Fat Tony felt that Persico was pushing Buffalo to war and was cooling the Snakes engine's. Big Paul and The Chin decided on Todaro Sr. Becoming boss. Fat Tony reminded Joe Pieri to inform the factions of Buffalo Pieri/Todaro that the Commission will decide. Interestingly, Joe Todaro Sr. decided to spend some vacation time in New York City after that meeting.


The exact quote:
"Tell him the Commission from New York - tell him he's dealing with the big boys now," - Fat Tony Salerno.
"I'll send word to Junior to straighten this thing out. I'll get a hold of Junior," said Salerno, who added authoritatively: "The Commission wants it straightened out."

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Capos in the Bonanno and Genovese crime families.

You're still being quite vague, Giacomo. Please provide some more details. Who, in particular, supported the leadership change in Buffalo (which, by the way, I still don't believe)?

Vinny TV? Nicky Santora? Joe C? Joe Desi? Little Anthony? Patty Boy Falcetti? Figgy? Conrad? Baldy? Danny Pagano? Tico?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how did you get this information. An LE source or an underworld source? How open was this leadership thing in NY?
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 10:53 AM

Leadership chance? I was talking about Falciano. Joe Saunders name popped up. This is from reliable sources.

Now if you are talking about Buffalo 1984, well Sam the Farmer told the Commission in 1983 that he was retiring in the next year or two, and would name a successor. He felt Buffalo would not have a repeat of 1974, and the Commission stay out of it. Big Paul took steps through Luppino for a peaceful transition. The root really stemmed from Todaro and Pieri kids, with Carmine wanting a strong ally in Buffalo. Persico was bringing tension to Buffalo. Eventually Big Paul and the chin backed up Sam the Farmer pick, Joe Todaro Sn.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Leadership chance? I was talking about Falciano. Joe Saunders name popped up. This is from reliable sources.


Sorry, I misspoke.
Which side of the law are your sources from? And, if it's reliable LE sources, this has a good chance of being brought up in court, no? Since Joe C was indicted two months ago...

Any other names? Genovese capos?
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/24/18 08:10 PM

Joe Saunders was Joe C father nickname. Joe C took control of his father's crew around August of 2013. Buffalo made 2, Utica made 2, and Hamilton made 2. The making ceremonies happened sometime between fall of 2012 to spring of 2013 for Buffalo. It was a big push for the family as by 2000 and on they were making one member ever two to three years in downsizing the family. My sources are UW, bookies, rounders, and pushers.

No, no other capos were mentioned, only Joe Saunders from Brooklyn.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Joe Saunders was Joe C father nickname. Joe C took control of his father's crew around August of 2013. Buffalo made 2, Utica made 2, and Hamilton made 2. The making ceremonies happened sometime between fall of 2012 to spring of 2013 for Buffalo. It was a big push for the family as by 2000 and on they were making one member ever two to three years in downsizing the family. My sources are UW, bookies, rounders, and pushers.

No, no other capos were mentioned, only Joe Saunders from Brooklyn.


Sorry, Giacomo, I assumed you were talking about Joe C because Joe Saunders was in prison at the time, very sick, and Joe C was sometimes called Joe Saunders Jr.

Anyways, why do you think Joe Saunders would have approved any sort of making ceremony? He was, like I said earlier, in prison (serving 15 years for murder conspiracy) and was very sick (even when he was sentenced in 2005 he had a myriad of ailments and was sent straight to Butner). He was in North Carolina during the timeframe you are talking about, close to death.

Sorry, maybe I'm blanking here, but what does UW stand for?
Also, if "bookies, rounders and pushers" are talking about this kind of high-end shit, why hasn't anyone else heard of this? Vinny Asaro was blabbing to wired-up Gary Valenti about admin changes, captain's meetings, etc. during this exact timeframe you've suggested, but nothing about Buffalo. Pug Lovaglio was a high-ranking capo and informant during this time. JR Rubeo and that FBI agent never mentioned any Buffalo ties. Anthony Zoccolillo would have known about it 100%, he had ties to Genovese and Bonanno capos from both Manhattan (Patty Falcetti), and Brooklyn (Ernie Aiello and the Williamsburg crew) and he was an FBI agent during this time as well.

Also, I might be nitpicking at this point, but Joe C was in charge of his father's crew the moment his dad got sentenced to that 15-years. Wasn't he charged as a capo in 2007?
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Joe Saunders was Joe C father nickname. Joe C took control of his father's crew around August of 2013. Buffalo made 2, Utica made 2, and Hamilton made 2. The making ceremonies happened sometime between fall of 2012 to spring of 2013 for Buffalo. It was a big push for the family as by 2000 and on they were making one member ever two to three years in downsizing the family. My sources are UW, bookies, rounders, and pushers.

No, no other capos were mentioned, only Joe Saunders from Brooklyn.


Sorry, Giacomo, I assumed you were talking about Joe C because Joe Saunders was in prison at the time, very sick, and Joe C was sometimes called Joe Saunders Jr.

Anyways, why do you think Joe Saunders would have approved any sort of making ceremony? He was, like I said earlier, in prison (serving 15 years for murder conspiracy) and was very sick (even when he was sentenced in 2005 he had a myriad of ailments and was sent straight to Butner). He was in North Carolina during the timeframe you are talking about, close to death.

Sorry, maybe I'm blanking here, but what does UW stand for?
Also, if "bookies, rounders and pushers" are talking about this kind of high-end shit, why hasn't anyone else heard of this? Vinny Asaro was blabbing to wired-up Gary Valenti about admin changes, captain's meetings, etc. during this exact timeframe you've suggested, but nothing about Buffalo. Pug Lovaglio was a high-ranking capo and informant during this time. JR Rubeo and that FBI agent never mentioned any Buffalo ties. Anthony Zoccolillo would have known about it 100%, he had ties to Genovese and Bonanno capos from both Manhattan (Patty Falcetti), and Brooklyn (Ernie Aiello and the Williamsburg crew) and he was an FBI agent during this time as well.

Also, I might be nitpicking at this point, but Joe C was in charge of his father's crew the moment his dad got sentenced to that 15-years. Wasn't he charged as a capo in 2007?


It is alright. Just because someone is in prison, does not mean they cannot communicate with the outside world. As I said before it was Senior, as this person chased a Capo from Florida on probation back down there. He is the only capo I know of the circumstances to do so. Joe Jr. Was only an acting Capo. Ernie was one of two acting capos for Nicky the Mouth. You know, in Donnie Brasco, his character was killed in with the three capos, who h in real life was not the case. Just because someone has access to a Capo or many capos does not mean they know everything. Case in point me personally knew and know San Jose Figlia, the Cerrito brothers, the Ditri brothers, Cusenza family, the Novello brothers, the Bracco brother, San Francisco Lanza Brothers, LaRocca brothers, Lima family, Bonanno and Profaci families, and mostly the Sciortino family, but I did not know 100 percent until later in life, and even 15 to 20 percent I am not sure. Do I know people in in other cities and Canada, Mexico, and Sicily? Yes, but I don't know everything. The problem between us, is you are a man of concrete evidence and I am a man of hear say who knows some reliable sources. Nothing wrong with that on either of us.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 07:50 AM

Nick,

What's the verdict?

I happen to agree alot of what I know.cannot be verified because it wasn't written in the paper
Only by someone else who knows similar or the same.

Sounds like he answered just about everything....
???
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Joe Saunders was Joe C father nickname. Joe C took control of his father's crew around August of 2013. Buffalo made 2, Utica made 2, and Hamilton made 2. The making ceremonies happened sometime between fall of 2012 to spring of 2013 for Buffalo. It was a big push for the family as by 2000 and on they were making one member ever two to three years in downsizing the family. My sources are UW, bookies, rounders, and pushers.

No, no other capos were mentioned, only Joe Saunders from Brooklyn.


Sorry, Giacomo, I assumed you were talking about Joe C because Joe Saunders was in prison at the time, very sick, and Joe C was sometimes called Joe Saunders Jr.

Anyways, why do you think Joe Saunders would have approved any sort of making ceremony? He was, like I said earlier, in prison (serving 15 years for murder conspiracy) and was very sick (even when he was sentenced in 2005 he had a myriad of ailments and was sent straight to Butner). He was in North Carolina during the timeframe you are talking about, close to death.

Sorry, maybe I'm blanking here, but what does UW stand for?
Also, if "bookies, rounders and pushers" are talking about this kind of high-end shit, why hasn't anyone else heard of this? Vinny Asaro was blabbing to wired-up Gary Valenti about admin changes, captain's meetings, etc. during this exact timeframe you've suggested, but nothing about Buffalo. Pug Lovaglio was a high-ranking capo and informant during this time. JR Rubeo and that FBI agent never mentioned any Buffalo ties. Anthony Zoccolillo would have known about it 100%, he had ties to Genovese and Bonanno capos from both Manhattan (Patty Falcetti), and Brooklyn (Ernie Aiello and the Williamsburg crew) and he was an FBI agent during this time as well.

Also, I might be nitpicking at this point, but Joe C was in charge of his father's crew the moment his dad got sentenced to that 15-years. Wasn't he charged as a capo in 2007?


It is alright. Just because someone is in prison, does not mean they cannot communicate with the outside world.

I just don't see why a near-death, sick, old, former capo in a medical prison in North Carolina is approving making ceremonies. The feds nowadays are very strict on prison communications.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

As I said before it was Senior, as this person chased a Capo from Florida on probation back down there. He is the only capo I know of the circumstances to do so.

You talking about Tartaglione?

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Joe Jr. Was only an acting Capo. Ernie was one of two acting capos for Nicky the Mouth.

Let's agree to disagree on the Joe Jr. thing. And yes, I know Ernie's story all too well but he was quite a high-ranking acting capo because he is the cousin/nephew of imprisoned boss Mike Mancuso, who relayed messages through Ernie on the outside with a series of letters.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

You know, in Donnie Brasco, his character was killed in with the three capos, who h in real life was not the case.

I always found that funny. I wonder what Nicky Cigars thinks about that movie hehe.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Just because someone has access to a Capo or many capos does not mean they know everything.

Naturally. But in your case, you are saying that bookies and all sorts of seemingly low-ranking people know about the Buffalo making ceremony thing, whereas no rats that would seemingly have access to such knowledge - high ranking rats like Pete Lovaglio and low-ranking rats like Anthony Zoccolillo - have said anything about the matter, despite the fact that it would be really big news if true.
Also, another argument to that is that somehow wiseguys or wannabe wiseguys are telling you about all this, yet nobody in Buffalo law enforcement knows about it. But there's no real way to prove that, so no point arguing about that.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Case in point me personally knew and know San Jose Figlia, the Cerrito brothers, the Ditri brothers, Cusenza family, the Novello brothers, the Bracco brother, San Francisco Lanza Brothers, LaRocca brothers, Lima family, Bonanno and Profaci families, and mostly the Sciortino family, but I did not know 100 percent until later in life, and even 15 to 20 percent I am not sure. Do I know people in in other cities and Canada, Mexico, and Sicily? Yes, but I don't know everything.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you have so many sources? It seems you have sources from all over the place, but why they would tell you stuff and not a paying consumer like LE, news journalists, GL news, is beyond me.
Also, why do you call it the Profaci family? I know about all the history with Joe Profaci, but I'm sure you know all too well that it's been called the Colombo family since the 70s.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

The problem between us, is you are a man of concrete evidence and I am a man of hear say who knows some reliable sources. Nothing wrong with that on either of us.


Totally agree on that front. Nothing wrong with a street-knowledge man, and a hard-evidence man. But I do feel the need to poke holes in people's information if need be. I think you understand that that's fair enough. You might know your 100% right, but I don't know that, and many posters are exposed bullshitters or at least partially wrong and if that sort of stuff goes unchecked then that's no way to have a discussion.
So, to reiterate, don't take offense if I question and refute your story. I don't know you at all, so nothing I say is a personal attack against you. If there are questions or plot holes in people's information, I ask. Unfortunately, none of your information is really backed up by anything and Buffalo law enforcement, DAs, etc. have consistently said the family is dead. Whereas, when a guy like Bensonhurst offers his information, I can often personally back it up with my own researched knowledge, as well as information I have required through "sources," although I try not to post that sort of street-talk stuff.
But, that's not to say that I can't find fault with anything Bensonhurst says. I agree with some stuff he says, like stuff about Nicky Rizzo in another conversation, and I can also call him out and grill him on other stuff like an early 00s making ceremony from another thread. So I'm not strictly "anti street talk," but I'm just anti-bullshit. You have been respectful for this entire thread Giacomo, so I can have a proper discussion with you about this sort of stuff. Whereas, when a guy like Rooster comes in here and calls people delusional for not believing his baseless story, and is just a complete smartass, that's where I might come across as hostile.

For the record:
1. I believe Rooster is at least a partial liar/bullshitter considering his story just doesn't add up, and he seems to have ghosted this thread once I started laying out the real questions. If you're reading this Rooster, which I have no doubt you are, I have posted the questions to you twice, and if you've answered them previously, show me where.
2. I really don't know enough about Giacomo to comment, but (whilst others on other forums strongly disagree), I don't consider him a bullshitter. Nothing he says is completely out of this realm, and whilst I don't believe him, I wouldn't bet money against it.
3. I think Bensonhurst is "in the know," in some way shape or form. His information is solid. I can back some of it up, and have called him out on info I don't believe.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 05:07 PM

Giacomo so it appears that you personally know some members and higher ups in the Bonnano family?
I can possibly verify some of your info

Do you know Vinnie T.V.?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Giacomo so it appears that you personally know some members and higher ups in the Bonnano family?
I can possibly verify some of your info

Do you know Vinnie T.V.?


What makes you think he knows members and higher-ups? He hasn't even mentioned Vinny TV...
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 08:28 PM

Vinny T.V. was in New Jersey, during the time the ceremonies took place. He sent in either August or September of 2012, and was released May of 2013.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Vinny T.V. was in New Jersey, during the time the ceremonies took place. He sent in either August or September of 2012, and was released May of 2013.


He was sent in Sept. 25 and got out May 16. Served such a little time behind bars, that case was such a shambles.

So Tommy DiFiore, Vinny Asaro and Tony Rabito would have to have been notified of the ceremonies right? Since they were running the Bonannos. And Vin didn't notify Gaspare?


Also Giacomo, off topic, but what do you think about Rooster's claim that Anthony Todaro is in the life and has a whole lot of young guys around him? And how much can you verify Cosa Nostra News' chart about the hierarchy and structure of the family? For the record, I believe that chart is total BS because the only people that would know that sort of info are higher-ups, and I don't see why a higher-up would be messaging Cosa Nostra News of all places and telling them all the details of the family.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 08:49 PM

Who is his partner in the bagel and construction business
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 08:53 PM

You can't look that up
anywhere
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 09:28 PM

BensonHURST, Johnny F is who you are thinking of.

Nicky, I do believe Rooster has the Anthony Todaro mixed up. Anthony Todaro, brother to Joe Jr, has an older crowd with a few younger gophers that hang around him. Anthony Todaro who is in his early 30's is active on the streets, and has his hands in quite a few activities. I posted a list, sometime back with him questionable being made possibly in 2015. Buffalo definitely made someone that year, but I don't think it was him.

I have already said what I have say about that chart, and posted a list of current made members. 41 one is my count, with only 26 or 27 members active.

The Rooster, you asked a question about Bobby Panera earlier. I now think you were refereeing to the place before he moved to Las Vegas. The name of the lounge was The Snowball.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 11:37 PM

No but you are very close
I will give you that
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 11:41 PM

Nick,

He kept mentioning Bonnano Capos
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/25/18 11:46 PM

He just gave the name of someone in Vinnie' s crew John John that I can't see how he would know of him.
He is just an associate as far as I know no one would know of unless you know that crew personally.

Either that or he just pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
And got lucky.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
He just gave the name of someone in Vinnie' s crew John John that I can't see how he would know of him.
He is just an associate as far as I know no one would know of unless you know that crew personally.

Either that or he just pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
And got lucky.



Fair enough.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 03:00 AM

So Nick what's the Verdict?
Buffalo isn't what is was
Never will be

However, more going than what the media is aware of and if they are inducting new members as of 2015 they would be an actual and not a defunct family?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
So Nick what's the Verdict?
Buffalo isn't what is was
Never will be

However, more going than what the media is aware of and if they are inducting new members as of 2015 they would be an actual and not a defunct family?


I don't believe there is more going on than what meets the eye. It is fun and interesting to believe there is, but I don't see how it's possible the family is still active.
To say that the Todaro crime family is making new members is one thing, but to say they are in contact with Bonanno and Genovese capos is another thing when you consider all the rats during that period. Longtime paid informers like Bonanno capo Petey Lovaglio, Brooklyn/Manhattan Bonanno & Genovese associate Anthony Zoccolillo, direct-with-admin Bonanno associate Gaspare Valenti, longtime Genovese associate JR Rubeo and his FBI agent that he brought in, and a whole lot of others during that time.
You could say "But Nicky, this information might be top-secret stuff that associates aren't aware of." Good point, but Giacomo has said that his info does not come from anyone particularly high-ranking - he said bookies, rounders, and pushers were his sources.

Not all street talk is equal. If someone says "I have it on good authority that Ernie Aiello is now looking over Patsy Parrello's loansharking ring while the guy is imprisoned," well then that's quite plausible and you can say to yourself "Huh, maybe I'll give this guy the benefit of the doubt." But in this case, if you believe what Giacomo is saying than you are choosing an unknown internet poster over real-life Buffalo mob insiders like Ron Fino, proven mob experts like Scott Deitche, Buffalo federal prosecutors like Lee Coppola and Frank Clark, Buffalo FBI agents like Andrew Goralski and acclaimed news reporters Mike Hudson & Dan Herbeck. You are also going against basic logic, like "Since there 1980s, active families in the United States are regularly busted." Yes, families like Chicago and Detroit are more infrequent than other families, but the key point is - they still get busted! Chicago has had multiple in the past five years, many of which I mentioned earlier in this thread, and Detroit has also had busts, although less frequent. Detroit has also been confirmed by feds and media to be active whereas buffalo has been confirmed the opposite.


Bensonhurst, do you believe Buffalo is active, and if so why? Also, do you believe Giacomo over Rooster or vice versa since they have different stories?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 01:17 PM

Yes, Im still here Nicky, just dumbfounded you cant just agree to disagree
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 01:31 PM

No ones ghosting the thread. Dont pat yourself on the back. This blog isnt my life.

I believe youre just mad that you cant get a consensus on this board and it eats at you and as Giacomo fills in the plotholes (as you say) ones that I cant because I do not know every truth or untruth because I am not an active member of the Mafia youre proven wrong. So again, keep name calling and grasping at every law officers words and every journalists article so you can try again to get everyone to believe you, which they dont and wont.

Sooooo, in conclusion, how about we agree to disagree? Or you still need that concept dumbed down some more?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 01:33 PM

And not every story by me or Giacomo is going to be completely the same...we are both going of rumors and street word therefore some is lost in translation. Do you understand that or you need it dumbed down for you some more?
Posted By: Sonny_from_Peoria

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 02:47 PM

Whatever happened to all of these guys

Russ/Benny Carcone
Patsy Brindisi
Harold Bordonaro
Sal Bonito "Georgie Raft"
Anthony Chirico (Rochester)
Paulie Cipolla
Phil Corelli
Joseph DePaolo "Joe Dips"
Frank Falzone (Buffalo)
Ronny Fino
Frank Ferraro
Peter Gerace (son-in-law of Todaro)
Nat Luppino (Hamilton)
Vinny/Joe Lombardo
Bruce Monaco (Toronto)
Frank Marino
Leo Mordino
Carl Mazza
Frank Meola
Mike Muscarella
Joe Pugliese (Hamilton)
Joe/John Pieri
Bobby/Larry Panaro (Vegas)
Vic Sansanese "Fredo"
Richie/Tony Todaro (Buffalo)
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
And not every story by me or Giacomo is going to be completely the same...we are both going of rumors and street word therefore some is lost in translation. Do you understand that or you need it dumbed down for you some more?


Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yes, Im still here Nicky, just dumbfounded you cant just agree to disagree


You're only trying to "agree to disagree" after I've asked basic questions you can't answer.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
No ones ghosting the thread. Dont pat yourself on the back. This blog isnt my life.

I believe youre just mad that you cant get a consensus on this board and it eats at you and as Giacomo fills in the plotholes (as you say) ones that I cant because I do not know every truth or untruth because I am not an active member of the Mafia youre proven wrong. So again, keep name calling and grasping at every law officers words and every journalists article so you can try again to get everyone to believe you, which they dont and wont.

Sooooo, in conclusion, how about we agree to disagree? Or you still need that concept dumbed down some more?


I'm not mad that I'm not getting a consensus on this board. I respect Giacomo and his arguments, even though I might disagree with him.
I don't need anything dumbed down, but you claimed to have answered all my questions and now that I've outlined some fundamental questions which I've been asking for this entire thread, you try and say "how about we just agree to disagree."

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
And not every story by me or Giacomo is going to be completely the same...we are both going of rumors and street word therefore some is lost in translation. Do you understand that or you need it dumbed down for you some more?

You concede that street talk can get lost in translation, yet you state these tidbits of knowledge as fact, and you call people delusional for not believing you.


So if you continue to refuse to answer such basic questions, which (if you're telling the truth) should be simple to answer, then this isn't a case of "agreeing to disagree," this is a case of you not being able to plug your plugholes and not having the guts to concede that your story has fallen apart.

Meanwhile, if Giacomo and Bensonhurst want to keep talking about Buffalo, I'd be happy to.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 08:56 PM

Once again Nicky, what questions have I not answered?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 08:58 PM

Sonny, Nicky thinks all those guys you listed now run daycare centers and bounce house businesses.

They have all quietly disappeared never to commit heirachal organized crime again. Probably finger painting right now as we type.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 08:59 PM

Nicky, if anyone were to needs guts to do something it would be you and that would be conceding that your reliance on law enforcement and journalists proving they dont exist/are viable fell apart weeks ago.
Posted By: Sonny_from_Peoria

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 09:07 PM

Oh hell I know some of those names are still on the street there has to be atleast a good handful
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Once again Nicky, what questions have I not answered?

I have sent you the questions twice now. Don't pretend you haven't seen them.
Here they are, for the third time:
Here are the questions:
First question: Which busts were in 2005, 2010, and 2012?
For a 2010 bust, you cited the arrest of a former associate, Cohen, although there is simply zero evidence that the crimes committed were connected to any sort of OC or the Buffalo mafia.
Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?


Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Sonny, Nicky thinks all those guys you listed now run daycare centers and bounce house businesses.

They have all quietly disappeared never to commit heirachal organized crime again. Probably finger painting right now as we type.

How many of the guys that Sonny linked under are 65?
And, by the way, what happened to the dozens of members and associates from other families like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, etc.???? Or are your drunk city cops telling you that they are active as well?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nicky, if anyone were to needs guts to do something it would be you and that would be conceding that your reliance on law enforcement and journalists proving they dont exist/are viable fell apart weeks ago.
\
When did my reliance on law enforcement and journalists fall apart? You're making this up as you go. Here's what we have: High-ranking, proven law enforcement officials including FBI agents, federal prosecutors and DAs saying that the family is defunct, and an internet poster claiming that his law enforcement sources are telling the opposite.

Seriously, when did the credibility of my info "fall apart?" When did the credibility of the number of high-ranking LE guys, journalists, prosecutors and mob experts "fall apart." It hasn't. So explain to me how your comment there makes sense.
As it stands, you are the one that's been refusing to answer questions. Not me.

Originally Posted by Sonny_from_Peoria
Oh hell I know some of those names are still on the street there has to be atleast a good handful

I have never disputed that guys might still be active. But no, it's not a part of a grand racketeering conspiracy that was active in the 20th century. There are still independent mob guys in defunct families across America. The same goes for Buffalo.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 09:30 PM

I will respond to everything shortly
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 09:32 PM

Again, this isnt my life and I dont always search for your posts
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/26/18 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I will respond to everything shortly

Thank you.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 02:29 AM

Why is it the Buffalo newspapers do not recognize an organized family?

It’s because they believe the FEDS in WNY.

Why do the FEDs stay there is no organized family?

The answer to that question can be quite easily ascertained by contacting Buffalo lawyer William Gary Iannaccone. He can detail how the Buffalo Mob and the FBI in WNY have been bed fellows with MK Ultra experiments since the late 60’s and why we can’t believe anything the FBI infield office in WNY has to say, which the papers readily report. This is scary stuff!
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 02:57 AM

Quote
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.

Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?

Tampa, I know you will think I am crazy but I agree with Rooster about this. Law enforcement in Buffalo is very corrupt—Esspecialky in Niagara County and the city of Niagara Falls. (I live in Niagara County.) It is even more corrupt at the federal level. And unfortunately, our local papers take everything the Feds say as gospel truth. If you would like verification about how corrupt the Buffalo Field Office is, contact Buffalo area lawyer William Gary Iannaccone. He can detail how the Buffalo Mob and the FBI in WNY have been strange bed fellows since the 60’s. He is working to build a case against the government. According to his research the FBI used the Buffalo Mob and their drug trafficking for the MK Ultra program. He has evidence of some really strange and scary shit—including experimentation on poor Italian Americans with mob help.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:15 AM

I found this article very interesting, in it the claims made are that law enforcnent believes Gingello to be in control of the mod in Rochester but then Gingello denies? Who are we to believe, law enforcement or the Mafia?

http://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/latest-headlines/does-the-mob-exist-today/192643822
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Quote
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.

Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?

Tampa, I know you will think I am crazy but I agree with Rooster about this. Law enforcement in Buffalo is very corrupt—Esspecialky in Niagara County and the city of Niagara Falls. (I live in Niagara County.) It is even more corrupt at the federal level. And unfortunately, our local papers take everything the Feds say as gospel truth. If you would like verification about how corrupt the Buffalo Field Office is, contact Buffalo area lawyer William Gary Iannaccone. He can detail how the Buffalo Mob and the FBI in WNY have been strange bed fellows since the 60’s. He is working to build a case against the government. According to his research the FBI used the Buffalo Mob and their drug trafficking for the MK Ultra program. He has evidence of some really strange and scary shit—including experimentation on poor Italian Americans with mob help.


Nickle City, I appreciate the response and the insight... but come on...

Feds are pretty incorruptible compared to city and state cops. Nowhere in America in the past 50 years has the mob been able to infiltrate the feds at such a high level as you are indicating. As well as this, even city and state cops in most cities are relatively clean because there's so much regulation and guidelines that it's pretty hard to cultivate a decent number of seriously corrupt cops. This is why there really isn't that much mafia-police corruption nowadays - none at a federal level whatsoever, and very scattered cases at a city level.

Also, the mob weren't able to stop the fuzz in the 80s and 90s. Following that, even Todaro crime family 'truthers' like Giacomo and Rooster concede the family was decimated following the tailend of the 90s. So how can you possibly try and say that fed-level corruption is going on in the weakened Buffalo mafia today. Think about it: the Gambinos & Genoveses, with 250+ members haven't been able to infiltrate feds. How and why would a family with 25-35 active members (this seems to be the ballpark that Giacomo and Rooster are suggesting) be able to corrupt the feds of all people.

Thanks for the response NickleCity.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:24 AM

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/05/man_accused_of_running_the_luc.html

Cohen Bust
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:27 AM

http://buffalonews.com/1990/09/07/1...ught-canadian-arrests-tied-to-local-mob/

Dated bust I didnt even know about
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I found this article very interesting, in it the claims made are that law enforcnent believes Gingello to be in control of the mod in Rochester but then Gingello denies? Who are we to believe, law enforcement or the Mafia?

http://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/latest-headlines/does-the-mob-exist-today/192643822


This article is from 2002, buddy. Sixteen years ago. This article was probably spot-on for its time. By the way, I know it was posted to the website Jul 07, 2011, but at the bottom of the page it says "(First reported May 14, 2002)"

So yeah, this was a good article that I can't find fault with. Even in 2002, LE were saying the Rochester mob was only "kind of" active. With other nice tidbits like:
"Today, crack, heroin, cocaine and other drugs are a multi-million dollar business in Rochester...and are run by groups who are younger and far more violent than the mobsters of old."
"does it still exist today? The answer to that is: kind of... and we sat down with the man reputed to be among its present day leaders."
"District Attorney Howard Relin, who has a track record prosecuting mob figures from the 1980's, says Marotta tried unsuccessfully to revive the glory days."

Thanks for posting such a good article Rooster, it's cool they got to sit down with a mobster. But if you think this helps your argument, it doesn't, because the article is from 2002 and even concedes the Rochester mob is on its last legs and dying quick...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:33 AM



Thanks Rooster, but there is nothing to indicate that this was a Todaro family mob bust. The fact that an ex-Buffalo associate who is still residing in Buffalo was working instead with the Luccheses speaks waves.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster


Interesting bust. Lot of good info here. Just double-checking: This isn't part of your response to me right?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:39 AM

Nickle City, posted this on a different forum...maybe he can enlighten us a little.

I know an undertaker that did a funeral for someone in the Buffalo Crime Family from Niagara Falls a few years ago. Said there was a large Canadian faction in attendance and that everyone was coming up to talk to Butch. The unsabstanfiated report about the current administration seems to corraberate what this funeral director told me a few years ago.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:41 AM

Nicky, I believe that the Cohen bust is a direct link to the Buffalo Family because he was close to Nicoletti. Beacause this is what I heard not because what isnt documented in the article.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nickle City, posted this on a different forum...maybe he can enlighten us a little.

I know an undertaker that did a funeral for someone in the Buffalo Crime Family from Niagara Falls a few years ago. Said there was a large Canadian faction in attendance and that everyone was coming up to talk to Butch. The unsabstanfiated report about the current administration seems to corraberate what this funeral director told me a few years ago.


How did he know who Butch was?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:43 AM

I posted the Rochester article because it says that law enforcement believes he is the mafia head in Rochester in 2002 and he argues against it, so either he or law enforcement is discredited. Meaning that law enforcements word isnt gospel" so yes its relative and is an example of them not always knowing the truth.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:45 AM

There hasnt been many busts in Buffalo fornthe same reason the Todaros and Falzone never were indicted on all the murders they were involved in, for the same reason that Bifulco was never indicted for all the murders. They clearly didnt have enough evidence to try and convict them
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:49 AM

I also believe that the kid who got busted with mortgage fraud, because of the cop who aided him and was convicted was friends with some members' that there is a direct link to the family
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nicky, I believe that the Cohen bust is a direct link to the Buffalo Family because he was close to Nicoletti. Beacause this is what I heard not because what isnt documented in the article.


But Cohen was doing this on behalf of the Lucchese family right? He was running the Lucchese's online gambling operations. He "was the primary facilitator for the Lucchese crime family's offshore gambling operations," according to the bust.
"(Cohen’s) arrest represents another significant milestone in our major prosecution of this New York-based crime family," said Stephen Taylor, director of New Jersey’s Division of Criminal Justice. "We have indicted the top echelon of this criminal organization in both New York and New Jersey, and we continue to charge key players in their multibillion-dollar gambling operation."

None of the shit he did even took place in Buffalo. That's just where he lived. He ran the wire rooms down in Costa Rica, as a lot of NYC families have done.

Also, by the way, before I get ahead of myself, what evidence is there that this guy was close to Nicoletti?
"Cohen, according to investigators, ran the wire room in San Jose, Costa Rica, and oversaw the mob's website Bigactionsports.com." - Just because he is from Buffalo does not mean he is with the Buffalo mob anymore than he is with the San Jose mob because he had operations there as well.


If there even any evidence he was a Buffalo mob associate? His first ever bust was the 2010 Lucchese one.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:51 AM

I also believe that my "drunk city cop friends" have some insight into what is going on as far as union corruption and fencing
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:52 AM

I just told you its what I believe...what dont you understand about that when someone tells you their version of a story??....I believe, based on what I heard that he and Nocoletti were close...what else can one say?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:56 AM

Yea lol the San Jose mob, Seattle too right? I love your extremes that try to compare apples and oranges to try and minimize someones efforts. I dont care if you dont believe what I have heard. Youre missing the point of blogging.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:56 AM

Still trying to find the 2005. Rochester restaurant owner with ties to Falzone. Bear with me
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 03:59 AM

You know Ciminelli was once a member of the 210 Nicky?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:01 AM

http://www.wkbw.com/news/grand-jury-indicts-nine-people-on-buffalo-billion-charges-again
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:02 AM

Yea no construction scams going on with companies with mob ties in Buffalo, the industry is all cleaned up nowadays. Nothing fishy going on here
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:05 AM

http://buffalonews.com/2016/09/22/louis-ciminelli-facing-corruption-charges-no-stranger-controversy/
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:10 AM

Are these Mafia-like tactics by Falzone??

http://www.debtorboards.com/index.php?topic=8789.0
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

[/quote

Tampa, I know you will think I am crazy but I agree with Rooster about this. Law enforcement in Buffalo is very corrupt—Esspecialky in Niagara County and the city of Niagara Falls. (I live in Niagara County.) It is even more corrupt at the federal level. And unfortunately, our local papers take everything the Feds say as gospel truth. If you would like verification about how corrupt the Buffalo Field Office is, contact Buffalo area lawyer William Gary Iannaccone. He can detail how the Buffalo Mob and the FBI in WNY have been strange bed fellows since the 60’s. He is working to build a case against the government. According to his research the FBI used the Buffalo Mob and their drug trafficking for the MK Ultra program. He has evidence of some really strange and scary shit—including experimentation on poor Italian Americans with mob help.

Nickle City, I appreciate the response and the insight... but come on...

Feds are pretty incorruptible compared to city and state cops. Nowhere in America in the past 50 years has the mob been able to infiltrate the feds at such a high level as you are indicating. As well as this, even city and state cops in most cities are relatively clean because there's so much regulation and guidelines that it's pretty hard to cultivate a decent number of seriously corrupt cops. This is why there really isn't that much mafia-police corruption nowadays - none at a federal level whatsoever, and very scattered cases at a city level.

Also, the mob weren't able to stop the fuzz in the 80s and 90s. Following that, even Todaro crime family 'truthers' like Giacomo and Rooster concede the family was decimated following the tailend of the 90s. So how can you possibly try and say that fed-level corruption is going on in the weakened Buffalo mafia today. Think about it: the Gambinos & Genoveses, with 250+ members haven't been able to infiltrate feds. How and why would a family with 25-35 active members (this seems to be the ballpark that Giacomo and Rooster are suggesting) be able to corrupt the feds of all people.

Thanks for the response NickleCity.


NickyfromTampa: I really do understand why it is hard for you to think Cosa Nostra in WNY/Canada is active. But I don't think you understand the level of interaction that is alleged to have taken place between the Buffalo/Hamilton, Ontario Mob and the FBI field office in WNY. If you want to begin to understand please contact William Gary Iannacone... he will be glad to share his research and findings. To wet your whistle read this:

Quote

Buffalo's Unraveling Nexus of OC, CIA, FBI & Nazi-type Experiments
May 29, 2009 at 6:09am
By William G. Iannaccone.
NLG Buffalo Chapter

Like the 1937 founders of the National Lawyers Guild I'd like to carry on in the tradition of an antifascist ethos, born of personal experience.

"Son, there are things that people made me do. I don't have the heart to tell you. I want to leave you these papers. You're going to have to figure it out for your self. No one is going to help you. This way I'll know you'll be alright."

My mother spoke these words of wisdom as she handed me a file box brimming with documents giving me clues to my own family's once hidden past, before her passing in 1978.

The pieces of the puzzle fell neatly in place to reveal a clarion scenario. After years of investigation and pro se litigation I'd gathered the evidence and family testimonials to prove my father, a WWII veteran, and my self, were unwitting victims of the CIA's MK-ULTRA behavioral science program.

Buffalo, N.Y, hometown of OSS veteran "Wild Bill" Donovan, I found to be a city steeped in a mysterious unraveling nexus of organized crime; CIA; FBI, and Nazi-type experimenters.

In the book "Hide In Plain Sight," Leslie Waller chronicles the court cases of Thomas Leonard of Buffalo who ran into a legal brick wall in efforts to contact his children, who along with his estranged wife and hoodlum lover Paddy Calabrese went into hiding from November 1967 to July 1975 in Pres. Richard M. Nixon's premier witness protection program: Like Leonard, I too ran into legal road-blocks to thwart my cause for truth and justice.

The witness protection program was hatched out of Buffalo's and the nation's first OC Strike Force. Two men in Justice put the pilot Strike Force idea together and sold it to Attorney Gen. Ramsey Clark (1967-69): (1) Robert Dolan Peloquin a veteran of the "Hoffa Squad" and (2) Henry Peterson who was later caught in the Watergate squeeze. The FBI refused to assign personnel or open their files to the Strike Force (Waller 131-32).

On Feb. 27, 1967, in the N.Y. Chautauqua County Jail, Paddy Calabrese reportedly started singing to John J. Honan, Asst. Erie Co. DA and Buffalo PO Samuel N. Giambrone, providing the inside scoop on the Magaddino empire (Waller 141).

Waller writes the Buffalo Strike Force was advised by "elements within the Justice Department…One (of whom) who'd been in OSS and the CIA," wanted Calabrese in deep cover in a small Michigan town. Joe Fino, mob capo, had reportedly told Giambrone to keep Calabrese off the streets of Buffalo (Waller 187).

On May 8, 1967 – FBI raided Snowball's at Hamphire and Grant. Thirty-six were taken into custody for consorting with known criminals, including Natarelli, Randaccio and Stevie Cino.

The next morning all charges were dismissed. End of Episode. Beginning of speculation. What was the FBI doing, staging a raid it knew would end in dismissal?

Waller says Giambrone would not speculate about the mysterious FBI raid anymore than why Hoover was soft on the mob. (Waller 162-63).

In 1968 Magaddino and six associates were indicted on charges of gambling and racketeering. The Funeral Chapel in Niagara Falls was bugged by the FBI from 1962-65. Judge John O. Henderson ruled against the government. He told the FBI in May 1973 unless they produce untainted evidence the case would be dismissed. The FBI did not. Henderson threw out the indictments and was upheld by the USCA 2nd Circuit on May 8, 1974.

Six days later the U.S. Supreme Court freed thousands of OC figures indicted and found guilty of narcotics charges on grounds of tainted evidence.

Attorney Gen. John N. Mitchell had broken the law by not personally signing authorizations for wire-taps of evidence leading to the convictions. Waller pens, "Whether that was deliberate or accidental oversight is not known to this day" (Waller 254).

Italian authorities report from 1950 -60 Magaddino headed a ring that brought heroin from Italy and to Canada and Eastern US, bringing in 150 million a year (Waller 254).

Calabrese moved to Reno, Nevada in 1969 and stayed till 1974 visiting Buffalo three or four times during that time. Tom Leonard who was closest to the action is quoted, by Waller, as saying "You see what a lie this all was? The government claiming their lives were in danger and them going back and forth to Buffalo?" Waller concedes, "The question was inescapable was Paddy in danger or wasn't he?" (Waller 263-66).

Waller concludes: "There is a vast and growing overlap between the activities of all our intelligence organizations and the activities of organized crime. Frequently, as in the Bay of Pigs affair, the personnel are identical. The same agents serve two masters and are later recycled as hit men against Castro's person… As the Watergate currency, laundering indicates, not only does organized crime make cash contributions to the law establishment, but the establishment also tethers to organized crime" (Waller 275-78).

In a Buffalo News article on Feb. 2, 1989, by Michael Beebe, it was first reported that Local 210 member Ron Fino worked for the CIA form 1965 to 1969 as a SUNY at Buffalo student informer to infiltrate the Students for a Democratic Society. Ron's father Joe was a mob capo, supra. The CIA recruited students as part of Operation Chaos, an unauthorized domestic spying op in the late 1960's.

In the article Fino said, "he was feeding it (CIA) information on Students for a Democratic Society" who were organizing anti-Vietnam War protests. Curiously enough, scores in SDS swallowed up on campus LSD and many went from pragmatic left-wing radicals to wide-eyed, soul-searching, fringed avatars.

Millions of dollars of CIA research grants were paid to professors and psychological researchers at Universities across the U.S to experiment with psychedelic drugs (ABC News Closeup: Mission Mind Control, 1979 transcripts pg. 6, 25, &34).

Incidentally, in the same Buffalo News article, Fino said he used his Mafia connections to help the CIA look for possible mob connections in the John F. Kennedy assassination.

My investigations juxtaposed with my experiences aims to prove: (1) Fino not only infiltrated Students for Democratic Society for the CIA in the late 1960s at the University of New York at Buffalo in operation Chaos to provide information on SDS, but also to mentor provocateurs. And that, Fino used his underworld connections to target this student organization for neutralization, by the facilitation of drugs on campus to disorganize, discredit in the press, and politically disengage.

And that: (2) my father and I were subjected to a more individual specific yet related CIA parallel behavioral science project called MK-ULTRA that took place in stages over the years and was most active during the late 1960s, as described as follows:

My father, Peter, was unwittingly confined to the VA Canandaigua Hospital by my mother in 1948 soon after he obtained a legal separation. My mother wanted to be a mom: I was born in 1952, their only son. According to my elder cousins' testimony my father was given sub rosa psychoactive substances in his food since 1954. They further testify from 1957-1958 he was subjected to severe electro-shocks that resulted in symptoms of left hemisphere brain damage. According to my cousins, my illiterate mother was tricked into to signing consents for these unusual and cruel experiments.

In April 1953 the CIA began its clandestine mind control program code-named MK-ULTRA, authorized by Directorate Allen Dulles. The use of psycho active drugs for inhumane psychological experimentation has its roots in the ilk of mescaline studies conducted at the Dachau Nazi concentration camp, under the inauspiciousness of Dr. Hubertus Strughold. Severe, long-lasting, debilitating electro-shock was also a part of the MK-ULTRA psy-ops arsenal.

My father was released to the home environment in 1966 at the peak of his trauma. I was fourteen. I went from an unruly teacher's pet to a truant. The Family Court ordered me on probation May 8, 1968 one day after receiving an injection, by Bernard H. Smith, M.D., Head Neurologist-who appeared to me like a specter of Mengele- at Erie County Medical Center. In spite of a court order for the complete records, granted Dec.24th, 1985, filed in NYS Supreme Court, Index H 50258, (file incomplete) ECMC has yet to comply.

In Aug. through Dec.1968, during a Family Court ordered placement to ECMC, I was subjected to a salvo of a cruel type of pseudo-psychoanalytical torture and sexual molestation under hypnosis, by an Episcopalian Chaplin/therapist Lawrence B. Hardy.

In Aug. 1969 Hardy wrote in my medical records "Talked to pt's (patients) mother's attorney a Mr. Musarra who seemed like a pretty good fellow & was willing to go along w (with) our treatment plan."

Arthur F. Musarra, my mother's family lawyer and lawyer for Local 210 had in July 1965 devised reciprocal wills and waivers for my mother and father waving their rights against each other's estate in favor me.

Those wills, according to Surrogate Court Registration card 70602 were filed in the Erie County Surrogate's Court on Oct.15, 1965. Since, my father was declared incompetent in 1960, by William J. Regan, Erie Co. Justice, my father's waiver was fraudulent. Those wills, filed under my mother's name, were removed by Charles D. Wallace, Esq. on May 1, 1972. The Surrogate Court, to this day, refuses to acknowledge those 1965 wills (my father's will) in violation of SCPA section 2507 and Penal Law section 190.30-Concealment of a Will. My father passed away in 1992.

The 1040 Individual Tax Returns for my father and mother show that from 1956 – 1971 no social security number was used for my father. However, from 1973- 1976 my social security number is substituted for my father's. 1972 is missing.

My mother left me pictures of her taken in front of Hurrah's Casino in Las Vegas, in 1972, with her cousin Philip (Cheech) Napoli, of S.F. Cali. (whose father had known ties to Magaddino) and "Bucky" Ciminelli. See pic of my mum doing the laundry in Las Vegas https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/9059c887-f509-4fca-b318-bf61fabcce93

I'd bet it all: that under the shrewd esoteric eye of the Hugh's – Magaddino co-dominion- one million greenbacks of my father's VA disability funds invested in US Savings Bonds, since 1948, got lost in the wash.

And, I'd bet my Uncle Joseph Pezzino's John Hancock, on a forged piece of the rock, meant for me, negotiated at the M&T Bank, was just the tip of the ice berg. Joe hung out with Charlie Caci, a/k/a Bobby Angelli and other Local 210 insiders, including Ron Fino.

Surrogate, William J. Regan (who as County Judge declared my father incompetent in 1960 and did not appoint a committee) failed to do so again in the Surrogate proceedings in 1979.

Surrogate, John J. Honan (who as DA in 1967 reportedly got Calabrese to sing, presided over a 1981 Settlement Decree that was made prior to discovery and a full accounting made of the assets belonging to the estates of my mother and father. The decree was made without my knowledge and later reopened to include my father's interests: my father was not mentioned the 1974 and 1978 wills. Charles D. Wallace, Esq. who drafted the 74 & 78 wills for my mother, told the Surrogate he did not know my father was alive.

Four days before my father died on April 20, 1992, I was informed by SSA that he was entitled to Medicare; Husband's Insurance Benefits and Widower's from 1976. SSA had misinformed me in writing back on Jan. 25, 1984 that no benefits were being paid "on his account." SSA failed to mention my father was entitled to benefits on my mother's earnings record who worked at Trico, since 1948.

I litigated the case from 1992 to 2001, pro se (as party in interest and as proper party estate delegate) winning two consecutive appeals at the Second Circuit and then filing a writ of certiorari at the U.S. Supreme Court for pro se legal-work compensation. The case was rejected. The SSA inconceivably argued all along my father's 1976 application was filed incorrectly, yet refuses to produce it, to this day.

The application was "deemed" as filed correctly a few weeks prior to oral argument for my second appeal at the USCA 2nd Circuit.

As Administrator for my father's estate I just might have another shot in the U.S. Supreme Court for compensation for my pro se legal-work. I'd be the first pro se in U.S. history to get paid in a federal case as the prevailing party to overturn Kay V. Ehrler, 499 U.S. 432 (1991).

My investigations and litigations in following the money trail are continuing.

I'm also investigating leads to discover whether the US military resorted to chemical-biological warfare in gene mutation in conjunction with spraying the defoliant Agent Orange during the Vietnam War causing FSH Muscular Dystrophy in generations of Vietnamese civilians, some U.S. soldiers and in my son, Sol, caused by the March 7, 1968 injection, described supra, most likely research conducted for the U.S. Government, by the Veteran's Administration and/or SUNY at Buffalo Medical School related to the SUNY at Buffalo's Project Themis.
I've just begun my fight for truth and justice. I'm moving on.

Epilogue: What has surfaced since?

Of Henry Peterson and Robert Peloquin, the two DOJ officers who first launched the Strike Force idea in 1967. Peterson became involved in serving Nixon's interests during the Watergate cover-up and left the DOJ. (Waller 284)

Peloquin left the DOJ in late 1967 and went on to make a mysterious career out of organized crime. As early as 1966, on a DOJ official assignment in the Caribbean, he reported overtures by organized crime to take-over casino gambling in the Bahamas. Peloquin reported phenomenal success of ridding the casino of a mob take over. So successful, in fact, he formed his own concern to offer his services to businessmen worried of Mafia take-over of their companies. (Waller 284).

By late 1967 Peloquin resigned from the DOJ and went to work as VP of a company that operated the Paradise Island gambling as a subsidiary of the Mary Carter Paint Co. Eduardo Cellini, an aide of mobster Meyer Lansky from the early days of Havana was manager of the casino, under Peloquin. In early 1968, Mary Carter Paint Co. had changed its name to Resorts International Inc. (Waller 284).

Resorts International built a casino on Paradise Island. Richard Nixon was the guest of honor at the casino's grand opening on New Year's Eve 1968. James Crosby, Pres. of Resorts International, contributed $100,000 to Nixon's campaign. Crosby, Bebe Rebozo, Nixon's buddy, and Nixon partied with a bevy of movie stars, gangsters and GOP faithful. (Martin A. Lee "Acid Dreams: The CIA, LSD and the Sixties Rebellion," 245).


William G. Iannaccone is NLG legal worker member of the National Lawyers Guild Buffalo, N.Y, city chapter which he reorganized, along with a SUNY at Buffalo student chapter in the spring of 2007.
William has since 1985 worked with Richard D. Kaufman, Asst. U.S. Attorney and former member of the WNY Organized Crime Strike Force in investigations related to organized crime, including unsolved murders.
As a member of the NLG national Drug Policy Committee he is working on a proposed workshop "The Evidence: Timothy Leary/Mk-Ultra/Sicilian Mafia: The Dawning of the Drug War" for the Detroit Mich. 2008 Convention.
William attended SUNY at Buffalo and graduated with a BA in the Social Sciences Interdisciplinary-Legal Studies program, in May 2004. As a second generation MK-ULTRA survivor he is working on a book/film script revealing his unique insider's look into MK-ULTRA, the CIA's ultra secret behavioral science program, mentored by Prof. Mark Shechner, his former English professor, at SUNY at Buffalo.


Now I know this article highlights activity that took place decades ago... But if correct the FBI in WNY was working with the highest levels of the Buffalo Mob. Did they really decimate the Buffalo Mob with the Local 210 trusteeship put in place in the late 90's? I think they made it look like that, but I am not sure they did. The Washington Post details how the Feds put in mob influenced/controlled investigators/federal trustees/etc...and suggests there was no real change. Here is the article:

Quote

EX-FBI OFFICIAL PULLS AT UNION'S INFAMOUS ROOTS


By Stephanie Mencimer June 7, 1998
When W. Douglas Gow moved onto the fifth-floor of the Washington headquarters of the Laborers' International Union of North America (LIUNA) in 1995, he changed the locks and swept for bugs. He demanded file cabinets impervious to firebombing and hacker-proofed his computers using the protocols of his former employer, the FBI.
The quintessential G-man with starched white shirt and spit-shined shoes, Gow was thus ensconced in the belly of the beast -- a union whose alleged organized crime ties date back to Al Capone. A retired FBI deputy director, he had been hired by LIUNA to conduct an extraordinary experiment in labor reform -- a self-policing plan that many saw as fraught with conflicts. Working from within, Gow was placed in charge of a no-holds-barred investigation designed to weed out allegedly corrupt LIUNA members.
Some of them worked just outside Gow's office door.

Three years later, Gow and the internal strike force have shaken the roots of the 750,000-member blue-collar union and been blasted along the way by everyone from ditch diggers to members of Congress. The effort, just extended by the Justice Department for another year, has been slow, expensive and decidedly uphill. Its long-term effects on union leadership are still unclear.

But as experiments go, the mob-busting efforts of Gow and his team have been viewed by reformers as a promising new tool in reconstructing the culture within a historically troubled union. Since the 1930s, the government has fought against organized crime's labor influence -- first with select prosecutions of tainted members, and more recently with broad court supervision of union affairs and elections stemming from civil lawsuits brought under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.
LIUNA's approach offers a third option -- letting the union itself bear the cost and responsibility for keeping its membership clean.
LIUNA hired Gow as inspector general in 1995 to avert a threatened Justice Department RICO suit. A draft complaint alleged that four LIUNA presidents -- including current President Arthur A. Coia -- had been controlled by organized crime. It identified more than 80 LIUNA officials who had been convicted of major crimes and said that criminal influence was evident at the local and international levels. It demanded Coia's removal, threatening to seize control of LIUNA as it had the Teamsters in 1989.

Coia and a team of white-collar defense lawyers offered a compromise: To avoid a lawsuit, the union would create an internal -- but completely autonomous -- strike force of former federal agents and prosecutors to enforce a strict new ethics code. If the effort failed, LIUNA would yield to a government takeover. Justice accepted the deal and has been closely monitoring the progress.
Gow set out on tricky footing. One of his first tasks was to investigate Coia himself. At 55, Coia was a Democratic Party stalwart touted by LIUNA as the new face of American labor.
But Gow's team reopened unresolved issues from Coia's past and honed in on the Justice Department's allegation of organized crime affiliations. Its findings led attorney Robert Luskin, acting as internal prosecutor, to file disciplinary charges against Coia last November. If "barred conduct" is proven during the ongoing hearings, Coia could lose his $254,000-a-year job.
In a letter last fall to LIUNA's board, Coia expressed confidence that "when the truth is brought forward, I will be totally, completely and finally vindicated."

Coia's case stands out among hundreds of investigations now underway, a job that Gow says "is much larger than I imagined." Dozens of LIUNA members have been ousted and 30 locals and district councils have been taken over by the international.
But Coia's critics say Gow's work is far from finished. They complain that some already disciplined by Gow's team remain in union jobs. Because all the strike force members are on the union payroll, some question whether Gow and his colleagues are beholden to Coia and unlikely to discipline him or other high-ranking union officials.
Gow brushes off the suggestion. "You've probably heard that Mr. Coia tells us what to do and when to do it, but that's just baloney," he said in an interview in his spartan office. "I can't recite one instance where he has interfered with anything we have done."
Alex Corns, business manager of a LIUNA local in San Mateo, Calif., complained that Gow is up against an impossible challenge. "There's just not enough resources to fight what they've got to do. It would be like trying to fight a forest fire with six people."



When Gow took the $140,000-a-year job, the Justice Department handed him a road map to alleged corruption within LIUNA's international headquarters and 600 locals -- a 212-page draft racketeering complaint describing a union dominated by organized crime.
In LIUNA -- a union representing construction workers, chicken pluckers, hazardous waste handlers and various other trades -- organized crime had a 70-year grip on union business, prosectors alleged. The complaint spelled out criminal influence in matters ranging from the selection of officers to the awarding of service contracts. LIUNA's pension and welfare funds -- more than 300 in all totaling tens of billions of dollars -- were a magnet for organized crime, the complaint alleged. In the early 1990s, for example, prosecutors discovered that New York City's Mason Tenders District Council, a LIUNA affiliate, lost $50 million in pension funds through real estate investments allegedly controlled by organized crime.
Coia's leadership since 1993 had been troubling to the Justice Department, which described him in a memo to the White House as a "mob puppet." Coia was indicted in Florida in 1981 on racketeering charges, but the case was dropped after a judge ruled the statute of limitations had expired. He was accused of taking kickbacks from an insurance agent who dealt with LIUNA locals. Coia has said the charge was groundless and has denied being influenced by organized crime.
In recent years, Coia has had high visibility within the Democratic Party. He oversaw $1.4 million in union donations to the Democratic National Committee in 1994 and played golf with President Clinton. He supported one of first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton's favorite charities, the U.S. Botanic Gardens, and gave personally to Clinton's legal defense fund.
LIUNA invited Hillary Clinton to speak at a 1994 convention, but Paul Coffey, the former head of the Justice Department's organized crime and racketeering section, warned her in a memo that she should "avoid any direct contact with Coia, if possible" because the department was preparing to file a RICO suit. The first lady turned down the invitation.
Coffey was the same official who later approved Coia's cleanup plan, a decision that some Coia adversaries charged was politically motivated. Coffey denied that, testifying in a 1996 congressional hearing that Justice dropped the LIUNA lawsuit because, "we never had a union that said, We'll take on the mob before you file.' "
Gow recruited more than 60 former federal agents to examine whether members had engaged in "barred conduct" under LIUNA's rewritten ethics code. It called for expulsion of members who had been found guilty of crimes. But it also forbade members to assert their Fifth Amendment rights in a criminal case or obstruct Gow's investigations. Members could be expelled if a hearing officer determined after closed hearings that the ethics code had been broken.
An elaborate internal justice system was set up to provide due process. Defense attorney Luskin was hired as chief prosecutor -- or as he put it in an interview "to get the cockroaches out." The son of a Chicago labor arbitrator, Luskin once worked for the Justice Department's organized crime section and now has a Georgetown private practice. He said the union has paid his firm about $4 million since November 1994.
As its disciplinary judge, LIUNA hired Peter F. Vaira, a former U.S. attorney in Philadelphia. To hear appeals, it retained W. Neil Eggleston, a former White House lawyer and House Iran-Contra committee special counsel.
LIUNA's team honed in on notoriously troubled locals and district councils around the country.
First on the list was Buffalo's Local 210 with 1,200 members, a local whose alleged organized crime ties worried then-Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy in the early 1960s. The local had not had a contested election since 1974, when John Cammilleri, a union member and alleged organized crime associate, was gunned down after supporting an opposition candidate.
Gow's agents assembled evidence to justify a trusteeship, a legal mechanism that allows the international to take over a local to correct financial malpractice or undemocratic practices.
Gow could no longer use traditional FBI tools -- tapping telephones or reading secret grand jury testimony. But he had help from Ronald Fino, Local 210's longtime business agent, who was in the federal witness protection program.
Gow said of the local's history: "They had all the common schemes -- contract rigging, no-show jobs, kickbacks, investments going wild and kickbacks on the investments."
Local 210's officers agreed to step down without a hearing, and Luskin appointed Gabriel Rosetti Jr., a 31-year union member from Rochester, N.Y., for a two-year stint as supervisor. Rosetti expected a smooth transition but arrived at the union hall on his first day -- Palm Sunday 1996 -- to find it blocked by 200 members chanting "Gabe go home!" The insurgents occupied the hall for three weeks until a federal judge ordered them out.
Insurgency leader John Tomasello was expelled for leading the protest. He complained in an interview that lawyers for the international "made it look like everybody in that union -- especially the Italians -- like they're criminals."
Some of Rosetti's tactics grew out of necessity, officials say. He said he discovered that the union was giving high-paid construction jobs to alleged Buffalo crime family associates. The local's finances were a mess, but officers had been leasing five Grand Cherokees at twice the market rate from a company in distant Rhode Island. Rosetti cut the local's staff and reduced the auto fleet to a single Buick Regal. But his effort to coax new leadership out of the rank-and-file was sabotaged, he believed, by former leaders who hoped eventually to return to power.
In early 1996, Luskin asked Vaira to eject 28 Local 210 members. Their cases were pending for 18 months, meaning that Rosetti not only had to live with the accused, he had to pay some of them.
Three on Luskin's list -- including Sam Capitano, the former business manager's son -- had been elected to $25,000-a-year advisory board positions created by Luskin.
Capitano attacked Rosetti at one meeting, grabbing a microphone and yelling "Gabe, you got no balls." The next day, the two got into a fistfight and Rosetti fired Capitano from the board -- an action Capitano has contested before the National Labor Relations Board. He is suspended from the union.
Vaira finally expelled most of the questioned members in early April and extended the local's supervision indefinitely. Luskin expects the local to appeal the decision in federal court.
When Gow traveled to Chicago in 1995 to investigate the Chicago Laborers District Council, a threatening message waited on his hotel voice mail: "Who do you think you're {expletive} dealing with? A bunch of kids from Waco?"
The anonymous call was a blunt reminder that the real seat of the union's power was in Chicago, LIUNA's birthplace.
The Justice Department alleged in the draft RICO complaint that Anthony "Joe Batters" Accardo, an alleged high-ranking organized crime figure who died in 1992, endorsed all of LIUNA's international officers. In 1989, when Coia sought to replace his ailing father on LIUNA's executive board, he flew to Chicago and consulted with Vincent "Innocent" Solano, Accardo's right-hand man, according to Coia's testimony in a 1995 lawsuit.
The Chicago District Council, the collective bargainer for 21 locals and 19,000 workers, had been investigated by two Senate committees and the President's Commission on Organized Crime before the Justice Department accused it again of organized crime ties in the draft RICO complaint.
When Gow arrived, Bruno Caruso was council president. His father, Frank "Skids" Caruso, was described in the RICO draft complaint as a boss of gambling and extortion rackets. Based on Gow's work, in February hearing officer Vaira put the council under a trusteeship and Luskin appointed Chicago labor lawyer Robert Bloch as trustee.
Caruso, now out of a $186,000-a-year job, believes Gow's campaign is retaliation against him engineered by Coia, who he said sees him as a rival. He denied any criminal ties, saying the allegations stem from Italian American stereotypes.
"Winston Churchill, he smokes a cigar, he's astute. Other guys, they don't button their collar, they're casual," said Caruso in an interview. "I smoke a cigar, don't button my collar, Im a wise guy."
Caruso argued that the "so-called reform" would destroy the council's bargaining power in negotiating new contracts for construction workers.
Bloch took over the negotiations this spring. He invited representatives of all 21 locals to participate.
On May 29, after a 20-hour marathon session, the council emerged with a contract promising major improvements and a 35 percent pay increase.
"People are telling me this is the best contract they've ever had," Bloch said. "It is a tangible sign that things are really moving forward."
The challenge faced by Gow's team was nowhere more evident than the 1996 Laborers' convention in Las Vegas, a dazzling affair with Elvis impersonators, laser shows and swarms of federal agents keeping tabs on LIUNA's first contested presidential election in 25 years.
Coia was considered a shoo-in. Most members gathering from across the country had never seen the Justice Department's draft RICO complaint because Vaira barred dissidents from distributing it.
LIUNA's agreement with Justice required that the rank-and-file vote for president by secret ballot.
Giving them someone to vote for was another matter. Almost no one wanted to challenge Coia, who ran as a reformer.
The last attempt to oust an incumbent left an imprint. In 1981, when dissidents tried to nominate a challenger to run against President Angelo Fosco, then under a racketeering indictment, they were beaten on the convention floor, according to a report by the President's Commission on Organized Crime.
Coia's LIUNA pull dated back to his father, Arthur Ettore Coia, the international's secretary-treasurer for 20 years. The elder Coia built LIUNA into a Rhode Island political force while cultivating ties to Raymond L.S. Patriarcha, a one-time reputed head of New England's major crime family, according to the draft RICO suit.
The younger Coia had moved into the top job with little experience doing the low-paid labor of most of his members. Coia's Providence law firm, which represents LIUNA members and trust funds in New England, has allowed him to drive a Ferrari, play golf and breed Rottweilers. He splits his time between Washington and Rhode Island. He is still president of the Providence local his grandfather founded.
In 1989, LIUNA's board appointed Coia secretary-treasurer. He was named president when Fosco died in 1993.
The draft RICO complaint alleged that he had long associated with organized crime and conspired with the Buffalo crime family up through 1994 to create regional training centers in New York that were allegedly to be run by organized crime. Coia has denied any organized crime involvement. After some prodding, Bernard Scanlon of Long Island volunteered to run against Coia, calling himself the "sacrificial lamb." Chicago council President Caruso also jumped in. In the end, only a small percentage of LIUNA's membership voted. Coia was reelected overwhelmingly. Scanlon never rallied enough support to get on the ballot. Caruso got 30 percent of the vote.
Stephen Goldberg, a Northwestern University law professor who served as LIUNA's election officer, considered the election a limited success. In a report to the Justice Department, he wrote, "Although some progress has been made in transforming LIUNA into a participative political democracy, that progress is both limited and fragile." Coia may have triumphed, but his trials are not over. He spent most of April at his own disciplinary hearing, facing charges that he was influenced by organized crime and took vendor kickbacks. Coia and his lawyer, Howard Gutman, declined to comment but Coia has publicly denied the charges in the past. Dissidents who have monitored the case worry that the prosecutors and the judge, all paid by the union, will treat him with kid gloves.
LIUNA officials are confident that Coia will remain in power. Chief of staff Terence O'Sullivan said, "If it wasn't for him, we would not be sitting here talking about cooperative reform."
And some members say Coia's removal would not cure union problems. Robert Brown, a local business manager in Rochester said that if Coia steps down, his most likely successor is LIUNA Vice President Peter J. Fosco, son of former president Angelo Fosco. A new generation of Fosco leadership, dissidents say, would be like handing over the Teamsters to James P. Hoffa, son of James R. Hoffa, the longtime head of the union who disappeared in 1975. Fosco, whose father preceded Coia as president, said in a telephone interview he supports Coia's reform and declined to speculate on succession. But one thing has changed. In the old days, the Justice Department contends, no one could make it past LIUNA's board to the presidency without first winning approval from the mob. This year, if the board is forced to replace Coia, their candidate will have to pass muster with Douglas Gow first. CAPTION: INVESTIGATING THE BIG 4 In 1986, the President's Commission on Organized Crime recommended that the Justice Department go beyond criminal prosecutions of union members and use the civil Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act to make systemic union reforms. It targeted the "big four" unions that the FBI alleged were "substantially influenced and/or controlled by organized crime" and in need of major cleanup. Here's a status report: Laborers International Union of North America President: Arthur A. Coia, appointed in 1993 Membership: 750,000. The union represents construction workers, mail handlers, hazardous waste haulers, chicken pluckers and others. Status: LIUNA headed off a RICO suit in 1995 by promising an internal cleanup. To date, dozens of members have been expelled, including two former vice presidents. More than 60 members quit before their cases resulted in disciplinary charges. Twenty-two matters have been referred to law enforcement for prosecution. The international has placed 30 locals and district councils in trusteeship or under supervision. Disciplinary charges are pending against Coia that could result in his ouster. In 1996, for the first time, rank-and-file members directly elected their general executive board officers by secret ballot. Previously, convention delegates chose the president and other officers. The three-year agreement with the Justice Department was extended for another year in January. International Brotherhood of Teamsters President: Ron Carey Membership: 1.4 million, the nation's largest union. It represents truck drivers, industrial workers, and others. Status: A RICO suit against the international resulted in a 1989 consent decree forcing the union to hold rank-and-file elections and naming a court monitor to root out corrupt members. More than 300 members have been expelled, 80 locals have been put into trusteeship and $15 million in misappropriated pension money has been recouped. The reform paved the way for the 1991 election of Ron Carey, a longtime member of Teamsters for a Democratic Union. Carey was reelected in 1996 by a narrow margin, defeating James P. Hoffa. But late last year, the election was overturned in the wake of a campaign finance scandal. Carey was disqualified, and three of his operatives pleaded guilty to criminal conspiracy. Another was recently indicted on embezzlement charges. Congress is now investigating how a scandal erupted while the union was under government oversight.' Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees International Union President: Edward Hanley, in office since 1973. Membership: 300,000. It represents bartenders, housekeepers, waiters and casino workers. Status: In 1995, HEREIU was put under federal supervision after the Justice Department settled a RICO suit against an Atlantic City local. The federal monitoring ended March 5, but a Public Review Board, headed by former Illinois governor James Thompson, will continue to oversee the union's internal reforms. Forty officials, members and union associates have been barred permanently or otherwise disciplined, but the monitorship ended this March without a supervised election, considered a crucial element to union reform. On May 20, the U.S. District Court in Trenton, N.J., unsealed a February agreement in which Hanley agreed to retire and leave office by July 31. Hanley had been a controversial figure. He asserted his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination when questioned before a presidential commission about alleged ties to organized crime. International Longshoremen's Association President: John Bowers, in office since 1987 Membership: 65,000. It represents shipping and dock workers. Status: The union, which the AFL-CIO expelled for corruption in 1953 (but reinstated in 1959), was the inspiration for the movie "On the Waterfront." In 1990, the government filed a RICO civil suit against six ILA locals that represented workers on the New York and New Jersey waterfront. The suit described the influence of Gambino family head John Gotti and Genovese family boss Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno. Monitors were appointed to oversee the locals. Nine members and officers were removed, and Bowers, who was president of three of the locals, was barred from holding office in any of the locals. The government has not sought to takeover the union's international operation.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:23 AM

Giacomo, do you know the Rochester guy im talking about, i think he had bis restaurant torched i. Charlotte or Irondequoit. Was close to Falzone
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:29 AM

Here is another article from the Weekly Standard that highlights how the feds put people in place that wouldn't really clean LIUNA Local 210 or the national:

Quote


THE WEEKLY STANDARD
A CORRUPT UNION AND THE MOB
By Eugene H. Methvin

AUGUST 31, 1998

Eugene H. Methvin, a Washington-based Reader's Digest contributing editor, was a member of the 1983-'86 President's Commission on Organized Crime and directed its investigation into labor-management racketeering


On July 24, 1996, in the historic mahogany paneled hearing room where grim-faced congressmen once considered the impeachment of President Nixon, chairman Bill McCollum of the House Crime Subcommittee gaveled for order. "There will be no photographs permitted of this witness," the Florida Republican instructed. A hood over his head, 50-year-old Ronald M. Fino was led to the witness chair, a screen protecting him from spectators' view.

For 15 years, Fino was business manager of the Laborers' International Union of North America Local 210 in Buffalo, N.Y., and for eight years, one of the union's national officials. "During this time, I witnessed the gripping control of the union and its membership by La Cosa Nostra, and the defilement of its workers' dues and benefit funds," he testified. For all those years, Fino was also an undercover informant for the FBI. In more than 4,000 meetings with FBI agents, he detailed the mob's secret "shadow government" within the union, and how it reached into the Laborers' Washington headquarters just two blocks from the White House.

Fino's testimony struck at the heart of an illicit alliance in which a Mafia-dominated union provided multimillion-dollar campaign contributions and Justice Department racket-busters were shackled. The House subcommittee had confidential information that federal prosecutors had been thwarted in their plan to take over and clean up the union. But subcommittee Democrats blocked subpoenas to compel testimony from witnesses who might have revealed the fix. Instead they heaped ridicule on the witness. "Mr. Fino, do you believe space aliens are linked to the mob?" mocked New York's Charles Schumer.

It's not hard to grasp why Democratic congressmen wanted to undercut Fino's testimony. The Laborers, under president Arthur A. Coia, had managed to snuggle up embarrassingly closely to the Clinton administration. Even before Bill Clinton took office, the Laborers made a $100,000 loan to his inaugural committee. Over the next four years, the union and its political action committee gave various Democratic groups and candidates $4.8 million. Harold Ickes, Clinton's first-term deputy chief of staff, was a New York labor lawyer whose clients included the Laborers, its "education trust fund," and its New York-New Jersey political action committee.

Coia was a regular White House visitor. He was invited to a state dinner for the Japanese emperor, to join the president in greeting the pope in Denver, and to fly with Clinton on Air Force One to Rhode Island and Haiti. The House Crime Subcommittee documented more than 120 contacts in three years between Coia and the Clinton White House, including cash contributions, personal letters, and social-political invitations.

The most important, for Coia, was a meeting in the Oval Office with President Clinton and Ickes on October 21,1994. The White House had just asked the FBI for a "name check" preparatory to naming Coia to a prestigious presidential commission. The FBI's response was stark: "Coia is a criminal associate of the New England Patriarca organized crime family." Moreover, the Justice Department advised that its racket-busters were going to file a suit "within the next several weeks" that "will accuse Coia of being a puppet of the LCN [La Cosa Nostra]." Associate deputy attorney general David Margolis, an organized-crime specialist, repeatedly telephoned warnings to the White House about Coia.

- Nonetheless, in the Oval Office President Clinton presented Coia with a Callaway "Divine Nine" golf club and listened to Coia's complaints about the "low level negative response" his union was getting to applications for federal job-training grants. The president assigned Ickes to look after Coia's concerns. Altogether, in the four fiscal years 1994-1997 after Clinton took office, the Laborers received $50.5 million in federal grants. The day after the Oval Office meeting, Coia wrote a check for $50,000 as a personal "soft money" contribution to the Democratic National Committee. He also gave Clinton a hand-crafted golf club bearing the presidential seal.

This, then, was the union whose penetration by the mob Ronald Fino had come before McCollum's subcommittee, at great personal risk, to describe. Fino had joined the Laborers when he graduated from high school in Buffalo in 1964. His father, Joe Fino, was an ex-con and career mobster. Buffalo's new Mafia boss recognized in the intelligent and gregarious young Fino an excellent front man for the union. Fino was made a salaried agent for the 3,000-member Local 210, a mob fiefdom, and in 1974 was elected business manager. Increasingly disillusioned with the mob, Joe Fino persuaded his Buffalo gang bosses to "keep Ronnie clean" so he could ascend the union's national political ladder and position himself to bring greater power and riches to the Buffalo mob.

And so he did. As the trusted son of a widely known mafioso, Fino rose rapidly in the Laborers. On trips to Washington, New York, and Chicago, he was tutored by national and regional officers about the union's shadow mob government. "Telephones have cancer," he was instructed. All important business was to be conducted face to face. Fino was given the identities of "our people" in the union, told which Mafia families controlled them, and warned which union officials to avoid.

The union's No. 2 man was Arthur E. Coia, father of the current president and boyhood chum and minion of New England Mafia boss Raymond L. S. Patriarca. Coia senior became Ron Fino's mentor. An FBI bug in Patriarca's Providence, R.I., headquarters overheard Patriarca meddling in everything from union elections to decisions on who got kickbacks on coffee machines. His operating philosophy, recorded on FBI tape, was succinct: "Hit them, break their legs to get things your way."

Coia served as chairman of the trustees of the Laborers' multimillion-dollar job-training fund. In 1980, he promoted Fino to the board, explaining that the fund was to be used to provide jobs for gangsters and associates. Coia began to take Fino along on nationwide travels to inspect training sites-and to deliver "messages" to the union's mob operatives.

Fino was no innocent. When he was a child, his mother had told him that his father was "away in the Army." But when they visited Daddy, he realized the "army base" was actually Attica state prison. And his Uncle Nick was there too. His father and uncle were both "made" mafiosi,, and killers. In high school, he saw his father's picture plastered over the Buffalo News as a Mafia capo and acting boss.

But working as a Laborer while still a teenager, Fino developed a rapport with the union's rank-and filers-construction workers and manual laborers, for the most part-and a disgust for the "wise guys" who ran the union and gambled, loansharked,, sold drugs, and loafed on the job. Later, as Local 210's chief executive, he found that his every move to improve his members' lot was blocked by Mafia bosses. They compelled him to pack the union payroll with ex-cons, mobsters, and their relatives. He had to forge records to award pensions to "friends" who had not earned them. The adviser who invested Local 210's $83 million in pension and welfare funds was kicking back to the mob.

The FBI had noticed that Fino, though a "younger generation" mob associate, did not hang out with the gangsters. At a tennis club, a friendly agent cultivated him, and Fino began to complain about the Mafia stranglehold on his union. "Why don't you guys do something about these mob guys?" he asked. "We could," came the answer, "if people like you would help."

Fino agreed, provided he would never be identified or called to testify and nothing he reported would ever be used against his dad. After one pow-wow with a Mafia boss, he was able to tip the Bureau that the mob had corrupted an employee in the FBI's Cleveland office. He reported on Mafia Commission decisions allocating control of different locals among mob "families." He described plans to control and bilk federally funded union training programs.

In the mid-1980s, Fino's mentor suffered a stroke. Arthur A. Coia, by now the union's New England regional manager, succeeded his father as the Laborers' No. 2 national officer.. He and Fino began meeting dozens of times a year, and, like his father, the younger Coia said he had to "answer to" New England's mob boss, Raymond "Junior" Patriarca, who had succeeded his deceased father. Coia also reported to New York's Genovese gang.

The mob takeover of the union was so complete that Fino could no longer stomach it. In Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Valparaiso, Ind., Laborers officials who tried to lead rebellions were murdered. In Fino's Buffalo local, two members, both mafiosi, were murdered because the mob suspected them of informing for the FBI. Fino's own dad died. In November 1987, after reading a Reader's Digest article exposing his union's Mafia ties, Fino contacted the magazine and promised to provide inside information. He also agreed with his FBI handlers to wear a wire, recording his conversations with mobsters, and to testify publicly if necessary. The Fino tapes helped the Justice Department convict dozens of gangsters and seize control of a corrupt district council comprising 12 locals and almost 7,000 members. Prosecutors found that the mobsters had looted the council's seven trust funds of more than $50 million, leaving members and their widows with penurious pensions and without needed medical care.

In February 1993 the Laborers' president Angelo Fosco died. As he later admitted in sworn testimony, Arthur Coia had flown to Chicago and received the blessing of the Chicago mob for his elevation to succeed his father in the union's No. 2 job. According to a Justice Department memo urging his removal from office, Coia recognized "that by receiving mob approval to get his job, he too was a product of [mob] control. The [mob] has controlled the upper levels of the union so that graft and corruption can continue unabated at the local and district council level."

While Coia settled into the high life of a Laborers' president, driving a red Ferrari and enjoying a Florida retreat and an opulent Narragansett Bay home in Rhode Island, Fino continued his undercover work for the FBI. Then one day, before a high-level union meeting, Sam Cardinelli, a Mafia soldier, announced: "Ronnie, I gotta frisk you."

"Put your f-hands on me and I'll break 'em off," Fino answered.

"Out of respect for your father, I won't do it," Cardinelli responded-and Fino's concealed recorder captured the encounter.

Fearing that his cover had been blown, Fino went to Danny Domino, another Mafia soldier and a former Local 210 officer who owed him favors. "Something's wrong," Domino told him. "I don't know what, but I'll find out." Days later, the gangster sent word via a relative: "They know you've been cooperating with the Justice Department, and been doing it for years. There's a contract on you. Danny says get out of town fast."

Fino fled Buffalo and has been in hiding for the past nine years, much of it as a federally protected witness. His testimony has helped convict many union officials. Several pleaded guilty once they learned Fino had taped their conversations.

Despite the highly publicized convictions of Laborers officials in New York and elsewhere, Coia, like his father before him, did nothing to disrupt Mafia control. The Justice Department appealed to him repeatedly to place the corrupt New York council under trusteeship. Instead, Coia spent more than $400,000 in union funds hiring lawyers and investigators to dig for evidence to discredit Fino. They found little.

Arthur A. Coia today remains president of the Laborers' International Union of North America thanks to an unprecedented bargain he struck with the Justice Department. Two weeks after his 1994 Oval Office meeting with Clinton and Ickes, Justice Department racket-busters delivered to the union a draft racketeering complaint, relying heavily on Fino's testimony. Then strange things happened-events that are the subject of a House Judiciary Committee investigation. The Justice Department had a track record of winning 19 straight racketeering actions against crooked labor unions. Its suit against the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, for instance, produced a court-ordered trusteeship in just nine months. Yet Justice made what many critics consider a sweetheart deal with Coia. The union was allowed to undertake its own house-cleaning, under Justice Department oversight. Coia hired as the union's internal prosecutor Robert A. Luskin, the criminal defense lawyer who arranged the unique compromise. To gather evidence, he hired a former FBI official, and to rule on any charges Luskin pressed, he hired a respected former U.S. attorney.

Union dissidents and federal investigators complain that the Justice Department made a bad bargain. The union's surrogate cleanup crew has no power to subpoena witnesses. Luskin reports to Coia instead of to a federal judge, and has kept rank-and-file Laborers largely in the dark. Moreover, the government cannot turn over FBI electronic surveillance or other critical evidence of mob penetration that would be available under a court-supervised trusteeship.

As Coia's hand-picked cleanup man, Luskin from the start seemed to drag his feet. More than a year elapsed before he prosecuted Fino's Local 210 in Buffalo, one of the country's most notorious mob-owned locals. He waited two-and-a-half years to seek a trusteeship over the equally corrupt Chicago district council, whose top officers-all of them gangsters or mob associate s 21 Laborers locals, 19,000 union members, and $1.5 billion in health and pension funds. Indeed, Luskin did not secure this trusteeship until February 9, 1998, two days before the original three-year term of the Justice Department's oversight agreement expired. Justice and the union agreed to a belated one-year extension.

Before the Laborers' 1996 national convention, Justice asked Northwestern University law professor Stephen B. Goldberg to research the union's delegate selection rules. He found them rigged "to discourage or discriminate against dissidents." Not one member of Long Island's Mafia-dominated Local 66, for instance, dared nominate veteran rebel Barney Scanlon. So Scanlon, 70 years old and "not afraid to die," nominated himself, and in federally supervised secret balloting actually won with a two-thirds majority.

Scanlon and other reformers proved to be a minor irritant. Coia's convention steamroller increased members' dues 27 percent to $228 a year, and eliminated their $1,500 death benefit. Then the convention voted to raise Coia's salary nearly 20 percent, to $250,000 a year, and to provide him with a new home in Washington. "Unconscionable!" protested Barney Scanlon. "The guy who pulls on his boots in the morning has to work for ten years to equal the salary you just voted."

The convention reelected the executive board to new five-year terms. But, at Justice's insistence, rank-and-filers were asked in a referendum if they wanted to switch to direct election when present executive board members' terms end in 2001. By a whopping 78 percent majority, 49,964 to 14,246, they chose to select their vice-presidents by direct one-member, one-vote elections.

Halfway through the three-year Justice-Laborers agreement, in July 1996, the House Crime Subcommittee summoned Paul Coffey, the Justice Department crime-fighter who had called Coia a Mafia puppet, to explain why Coia was still in control. "Is he a puppet today? We're not sure," Coffey testified. "He did what you don't normally see puppets do; he said, 'I can kick them out, too.' He's got no choice but to get rid of the mob. The minute he decides he won't do it, or he's slow in doing it, he goes, too."

Today, two more years have passed. Coffey has retired, and Coia still runs the Laborers. Ron Fino and other critics complain that Coia has survived for nearly four years by adopting a shrewd damage-control strategy, playing the public role of reformer while moving chiefly against his rivals in the "shadow government" and ignoring the mob overlords in his Northeast home base. Indeed, federal informants report that the Genovese family is now in complete control of the union.

Last November, when the three-year oversight agreement was about to expire and the Justice Department threatened to take over the union, Luskin moved finally to oust Coia. The charges: Coia "knowingly associated" with Mafia members and permitted them to influence the union, breaching his constitutional and fiduciary duties. Coia also "improperly accepted benefits" from a union service provider. The union's hearing officer, though, decreed that both the charges and hearing would be secret. Rank-and-filers are still waiting for his decision.

Meantime, the government's oversight agreement ends next January, and union members continue to suffer embezzlement, assaults, and other outrages:

In Fresno, Calif., Local 294 member Linda Cannon protested unfair hiring, fought harassment, filed internal union charges, and ran for office. "We are battling money, corruption, and more money," she proclaimed. She came within 16 votes of winning. The union's hearing of officer, a seasoned former federal racket-buster, found intimidation so extreme he ordered a new election. The incumbents then wrote each member, demanding he state whether he wanted a new election and return the letter-signed. "The business manager can use these letters to add to his blacklist for jobs," declared one member. Cannon lost again.

The Chicago mob shamelessly pirated the 2,000 member Local 225 in Desplaines, Ill. Its business manager for 10 years was a "made" mafioso, Joey Mazza, whom Luskin forced out in 1995. Replacing him was the mob underboss's nephew. He engaged in illegal bookmaking and charged the union for airfare and hotel stays with a girlfriend, a union employee. He and two other officers spent $33,000 for "meals" in just 10 months last year, at which point Luskin sought a trusteeship.

In California, San Francisco-area district-council boss Archie Thomas draws a yearly salary of $150,000. He put his son Craig, a convicted rapist, on a training center payroll, violating a federal law forbidding union employment of violent felons. Craig packed a .38 caliber pistol on the job. As he rummaged for change in the cafeteria, the gun fired. Police arrested him for being a felon in possession of a firearm and seized illegal drugs and chemicals for manufacturing methamphetamine at his home. He was convicted of two more felonies.

On July 31, 1997, in Hartford, Conn., vice president Steve Manos of Local 230 dared to question expenses at an executive-board luncheon meeting. The business manager erupted in profanity and called in the hulking sergeant-at-arms, who slammed the 53 year-old bantamweight Manos against the wall, hustled him out of the restaurant, and hurled him onto the sidewalk. A few months later, Ron Nobili, the reform-minded business manager of Bridgeport Local 665, at a meeting of all 10 Connecticut business managers, objected to $35,000 paid for billboard advertising to an ad agency owned by another business manager's son. The other business manager walked slowly around the conference table, flexing his fist, and slugged Nobili. In both cases, executive-board members of the union were present and did nothing to stop or reprimand the violent officials. Under the 1959 Landrum-Griffin Act, these Laborers' officials have a duty to protect each member's "right to express at meetings his views upon any business properly before the meeting." Luskin has made no move to call the derelict board members to account.

THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT GAVE AWAY TOO MUCH. RACKETEERS RAPED AND PLUNDERED THE UNION MEMBERS WHILE THE BOARD SAT BY.
Alex Corns, business manager of Daly City, Calif., Local 36, was part of a Gideon's army of rebels determined to defy Coia's convention combine. He opposed the dues hike, proposed salary cuts for top officers, and demanded a full accounting for every dollar spent on the cleanup process. For daring to protest, Corns saw his local's jurisdiction over fire-proofing work raided by other Laborers locals in the San Francisco Bay district council, depriving his members of jobs. His protests to Coia were ignored. After Corns appealed to the Justice Department, Luskin found Local 36's jurisdictional claim "beyond dispute" and concluded the raids violated the union constitution. Only then did Coia order an end to the retaliation.
Says Corns: "The Justice Department gave away too much. They saddled us until 2001 with the same Executive Board dominated by members who sat there doing nothing while the racketeers raped and plundered our members. The full three years is up, Coia's still in office enjoying his mansions and sports cars, he's got a $50,000a-year raise, and we lose benefits and pay higher dues. What kind of justice is that?"

The Laborers' struggle offers lessons for the entire nation. University of Pennsylvania law professor Clyde Summers, who helped draft the Landrum-Griffin Act's "union members' bill of rights," told Congress in May that four decades of experience have shown a need to provide more safeguards against labor racketeers: "To maintain an effective democratic process in the national unions, all national, intermediate and local officers should be elected by direct vote rather than through conventions or delegates." A direct vote of members should also be required to raise union dues, he urged. These reforms would help rank-and-filers "maintain adequate control" and make it more difficult to "stifle democracy and opposition groups."
Meantime, the Justice Department's effort to cleanse the Laborers Union of the brutal shadow government Ron Fino so courageously exposed drags on. A recent issue of Hard Hat Construction Magazine paid him well-deserved tribute: "Unlike most mob informants, Fino volunteered. He was not trying to turn in mob associates in exchange for a lighter prison sentence, and he was not trying to get rich. He tried to do the right thing, and he has paid the price. He lost his good [union] job, he lost his family, and the Buffalo Cosa Nostra put a price on his head. He lives on the run, while many of the mobsters he incriminated are still leading the plush life."


Also, did you pick up on the fact that O'sullivan, the current LUIUNA president, was Coia's chief of staff and praised Coia for his "efforts" to "clean" the union?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 04:44 AM



Rooster in the following legal document you will see that Louis P. Ciminelli served as a trustee for mob controlled LIUNA Local 210 and was named in a RICO suit along with Leonard Falzone and numerous other Buffalo soldiers and associates.
Quote

SOUTHMARK PRIME PLUS, L.P. v. FALZONE

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Civ. A. No. 91-127-JLL.
View Case Cited Cases Citing Case
768 F.Supp. 487 (1991)

SOUTHMARK PRIME PLUS, L.P., a Delaware Limited Partnership, Southmark Equity Partners III, Ltd., a California Limited Partnership, Southmark Investment Group 86, Inc., a Nevada Corporation, and Prime Plus Corp., Inc., a Nevada Corporation, Plaintiffs, v. Leonard F. FALZONE, Buffalo Laborers' Pension Fund, Laborers' International Union of North America, Local # 210, Realcap Company, a Texas General Partnership, Quantum Realty Corp., a Delaware Corporation, Concap Management, L.P., an Illinois Limited Partnership, William R. Arnold, Salvatore J. Caci, Louis P. Ciminelli, John A. Doyle, Peter G. Gerace, Edward D. Herrick, James C. Logan, Terry L. Noebel, Joseph R. Pieri, Robert C. Patterson, and Daniel J. Sansanese, Defendants.

United States District Court, D. Delaware.

June 20, 1991.

Attorney(s) appearing for the Case

Robert K. Payson and Stephen C. Norman of Potter, Anderson & Corroon, Wilmington, Del., and Karen E. Katzman, Phillip A. Geraci and John J.P. Howley of Kaye, Scholer, Fierman, Hays & Handler, New York City, of counsel, for plaintiffs.

Richard R. Weir, Jr. and Wayne J. Carey of Prickett, Jones, Elliott, Kristol & Schnee, Wilmington, Del., and Harold J. Boreanaz and Robert L. Boreanaz of Boreanaz, Carra, Boreanaz, Buffalo, N.Y., of counsel, for Pension Fund defendants.

Perry F. Goldlust of Heiman, Aber & Goldlust, Wilmington, Del., and Richard Lipsitz and William M. Feigenbaum of Lipsitz, Green, Fahringer, Roll, Salisbury & Cambria, Buffalo, N.Y., of counsel, for Local # 210 defendants.

Steven J. Rothschild, Matthew F. Boyer and Karen L. Valihura of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, Wilmington, Del., and David S. Steuer of Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati, Palo Alto, Cal., of counsel, for Realcap defendants.

MEMORANDUM OPINION

LATCHUM, Senior District Judge.

The plaintiffs in this action have alleged several violations of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 ("1934 Act"), 15 U.S.C. § 78a et seq., and the Rules promulgated thereunder, and the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act ("RICO"), 18 U.S.C. § 1961 et seq., by the defendants. Defendants Laborers' International Union of North America Local 210 ("Local 210") and Buffalo Laborers' Pension Fund ("Pension Fund") (collectively "the movants") have moved pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(3) to dismiss this action for improper venue, and pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(f), to strike portions of the complaint.

The Court heard oral argument on June 17, 1991 and has considered the briefs of the parties. (D.I. 44, 46, 48, & 53).

Venue Under § 78aa Of The 1934 Act

The defendants first contend that under 15 U.S.C. § 78aa the District of Delaware is not the proper venue for the plaintiffs' 1934 Act claims. The Court does not agree with this contention. Under § 78aa "venue lies in the district (1) in which any act or transaction constituting the violation occurred...."1 Jacobs v. Hanson, 464 F.Supp. 777, 781-82 (D.Del.1979). This basis for venue requires "but one act within the forum district which represents more than an immaterial part of the allegedly illegal events." Puma v. Marriott, 294 F.Supp. 1116, 1120 (D.Del.1969). See also, Jacobs v. Hanson, 464 F.Supp. at 782; Prettner v. Aston, 339 F.Supp. 273 (D.Del. 1972); Dauphin Corp. v. Redwall Corp., 201 F.Supp. 466, 469-70 (D.Del.1962). Additionally, while the single act within the district must be an integral part of the allegedly illegal events, the act within the district does not in itself have to be illegal. Jacobs v. Tenney, 316 F.Supp. 151, 158 (D.Del.1970); Prettner, 339 F.Supp. at 280; Jacobs v. Hanson, 464 F.Supp. at 782. Applying these criteria to the present case, the District of Delaware is in fact a proper venue for the plaintiffs' 1934 Act claims.

According to the plaintiffs' complaint, the defendants intended to illegally seize control of several businesses and circumvent federal disclosure requirements. The key to the alleged scheme of the defendants was the creation of a Delaware corporation that would mask the defendants' alleged affiliations with organized crime and act as a vehicle for the takeovers. Quantum Realty Corporation is the Delaware corporation allegedly organized for this nefarious purpose. The act of incorporating Quantum Realty in Delaware, while not illegal, was certainly a material and integral part of the defendants' alleged illegal scheme.

In Jacobs v. Hanson, minority shareholders brought suit against the officers and directors of a corporation because they allegedly made misrepresentations in connection
[768 F.Supp. 489]
with the corporation's sale of its assets. The success of the sale depended on special tax treatment that was only possible if the corporation also dissolved itself. The Court held that venue in Delaware over all the defendants, even those who were residents of other states, was proper because the certificate of dissolution was filed in Delaware. The filing of a certificate of dissolution in Delaware was an "act" within the district sufficient to make venue as to all defendants proper under § 78aa.

In Dauphin, the acts making venue proper as to all defendants under § 78aa were the organization of a Delaware corporation to act as a conduit for fraudulently obtained proceeds, and the amendment of the plaintiff's charter of incorporation so that it could issue additional stock. The defendants' fraudulent note was paid for with the newly issued stock of the plaintiff.

In Prettner, certain labor unions brought suit in an effort to block the proposed merger of Western Airlines and American Airlines. The suit named several officers of Western Airlines, who had no contacts with Delaware, as defendants. Under § 78aa, venue was nonetheless proper in Delaware with respect to these officers because a stockholders' meeting had been held in Delaware by American Airlines.

Local 210 and the Pension Fund emphasize that the act making venue in this district proper under § 78aa was not performed by the movants. Local 210 and the Pension Fund apparently believe that unless they filed Quantum Realty's certificate of incorporation, this act cannot make Delaware a proper venue in a suit by the plaintiffs against the movants. This argument fails to recognize the significance of the plaintiffs' allegation that each defendant was a co-conspirator in an illegal scheme expected to benefit each defendant. Once venue has been established under § 78aa vis a vis one defendant, venue is proper with respect to the defendant's co-conspirators.2 This concept is occasionally referred to as the "co-conspirator venue" theory.

The underlying logic of "co-conspirator venue" was recognized in this district as early as 1962. In Dauphin, Judge Steel explained why two acts in Delaware were sufficient to make venue proper as to all defendants in a securities case. "[The acts] were integral parts of the fraud for which all defendants were the intended beneficiaries. They were acts of material importance to the sale of the [fraudulent] note. This is sufficient to support the venue of this district." Dauphin, 201 F.Supp. at 469-70. This same concept, under the title of "co-conspirator venue" has been adopted in securities cases by at least three circuits and several district courts, including several in the Third Circuit.3 Under § 78aa, venue in this district is proper as to all defendants with respect to the 1934 Act claims.

Venue Under § 1965(b) Of RICO

In a RICO action, venue may be proper with respect to a particular defendant
[768 F.Supp. 490]
even though the venue provisions of 18 U.S.C. § 1965(a) and 28 U.S.C. § 1391 do not apply to that defendant. Bernstein v. IDT Corp., 582 F.Supp. 1079, 1087-88 (D.Del.1984); Farmer's Bank of the State of Delaware v. Bell Mortg. Corp. (Farmer's Bank II), 577 F.Supp. 34 (D.Del.1981). If venue is proper in a district pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1965(a) or 28 U.S.C. § 1391 as to one or more defendants, venue will also be proper with respect to defendants not covered by these venue provisions if, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 1965(b), the "interests of justice" dictate that these other defendants be brought before the same court. See id. None of the cases cited by the defendants are to the contrary.4 On the other hand, several district court opinions in this circuit support the argument that the nationwide service of process provision of § 1965(b) can be used to satisfy RICO's venue requirements.5

Generally, when a defendant moves to dismiss for improper venue pursuant to Fed.R.Civ.P. 12(b)(3), the defendant bears the burden of proof. Myers v. American Dental Ass'n, 695 F.2d 716, 724-25 (3d Cir.1982), cert. denied, 462 U.S. 1106, 103 S.Ct. 2453, 77 L.Ed.2d 1333 (1983) ("[T]he defendant should ordinarily bear the burden of showing improper venue in connection with a motion to dismiss."); 1A-Pt 2 J. Moore, Moore's Federal Practice ¶ 0.340[2], at 4021-22 (2d ed. 1991). The plaintiffs in this case, however, do not rely on the general venue provisions of 28 U.S.C. § 1391. Instead, the plaintiffs claim that venue is appropriate against the movants under one of RICO's special venue provisions, namely, § 1965(b). Under § 1965(b), a plaintiff must "show[] that the ends of justice require" the district court to exercise its discretion and bring parties before the court that would not otherwise be subject to venue in the district. The plaintiffs have met this burden.

The venue provisions found in RICO balance two policy concerns. The first concern is the traditional one that a defendant should not be unfairly inconvenienced by a plaintiff's choice of forum.6 The second concern is that a RICO conspiracy should
[768 F.Supp. 491]
be tried as a whole, with all defendants before one court, whenever possible.7 Section 1965(b) strikes a balance between these two policy concerns by giving the court discretion to bring all defendants into a single district when the "ends of justice" require such action.8 Several factors can be considered by a court in making this "ends of justice" determination under § 1965(b).

First, if there is a district where venue is proper as to every RICO defendant, without resort to § 1965(b), under normal circumstances, a court in a different district will not further the ends of justice if it exercises its discretion under § 1965(b) to bring the same litigants into a district where venue would not otherwise have been proper. On the other hand, if no district is a proper venue as to all defendants without resort to § 1965(b), and at least one defendant is subject to venue in the district pursuant to § 1965(a) or § 1391, then the interests of justice weigh heavily in favor of the court bringing the other defendants before it under § 1965(b).9

In the present case, venue is clearly proper under § 1965(a) with respect to Quantum, the defendant Delaware corporation. The plaintiffs' complaint and their briefs also make it clear that there are several defendants and that they are widely dispersed. At this stage of the proceedings it is impossible to determine the specific contacts each defendant has with each possible forum. Nonetheless, it is unlikely that all the defendants are subject to venue in one district under §§ 1965(a) and 1391.10 The Court therefore concludes that the ends of justice would be significantly advanced if the Court exercised its discretion under § 1965(b) and brought all defendants to the District of Delaware. For this reason alone, the Court would be justified in exercising its discretion under § 1965(b).

Second, the movants will not be inconvenienced if they are required to defend against the plaintiffs' RICO claims in the District of Delaware. Venue is proper in the District of Delaware with respect to the plaintiffs' 1934 Act claims against both Local 210 and the Pension Fund. Regardless of whether venue is appropriate with respect to the RICO claims, Local 210 and the Pension Fund will be required to appear in this suit. Possible inconvenience to Local
[768 F.Supp. 492]
210 and the Pension Fund, therefore, is not a factor.

A third factor a court should consider when determining whether to exercise its discretion under § 1965(b) is judicial economy. Farmer's Bank II, 577 F.Supp. at 35. In the present case, this factor weighs heavily in favor of compelling the movants to appear and defend this suit in the District of Delaware.

As noted above, with respect to the 1934 Act claims there is certainly venue in this district as to all defendants. In order to litigate these claims the parties will have to address the existence of the alleged conspiracy and its connection to organized crime. This factual inquiry, in which the movants must participate, will be very similar to the factual issues raised by the RICO claims. Further, the other defendants have not objected to venue in this district and will therefore have to address the legal issues involved in the RICO claims. Since the movants will be required to litigate their role in the conspiracy and ties to organized crime anyhow, and the Court will be addressing the legal issues related to the RICO claims, it would be a serious waste of judicial resources to litigate this case in more than one district. For these reasons, the Court concludes that venue under RICO is proper in this district with respect to the movants.

Local 210's Motion To Strike Pursuant To Fed.R.Civ.P. 12(f)

In pertinent part, Fed.R.Civ.P. 12(f) permits the Court to strike "from any pleading any ... redundant, immaterial, impertinent, or scandalous matter." Essentially, Local 210 and the Pension Fund argue that the plaintiffs' allegations that Local 210 and the Pension Fund are connected to, and controlled by, organized crime are "impertinent" and "scandalous" and should therefore be stricken. (D.I. 44 at 16-19; D.I. 53).

As a general rule, motions to strike pursuant to Fed.R.Civ.P. 12(f) are not favored.11 Further, a "[m]atter will not be stricken from a pleading unless it is clear that it can have no possible bearing upon the subject matter of the litigation."12 Put differently, the portions of the complaint that the movants find offensive cannot be struck unless they are immaterial to the complaint. Skadegaard v. Farrell, 578 F.Supp. 1209, 1221 (D.N.J.1984). In the present case, the plaintiffs' allegations that Local 210 and the Pension Fund are controlled by organized crime are central to both the plaintiffs' 1934 Act claims and their RICO claims. The crux of the plaintiffs' complaint is that organized crime figures conspired to seize control of certain businesses in violation of RICO and that the means they used were intended to hide the involvement of organized crime, in violation of the securities laws. In any event, the allegations in the complaint are not unreasonably derogatory or offensive.

At oral argument, the movants took particular exception to the complaint's references to newspaper articles supporting the plaintiffs' allegations. According to the plaintiffs, the references to the newspaper articles are relevant because they show that the defendants who are not members of organized crime, should have known they were conspiring with organized crime figures. For present purposes, this explanation satisfies the Court that this information was properly included in the complaint.

Due to the materiality of the offending allegations and the Court's reluctance to strike generally, the Court will deny the motions of Local 210 and the Pension Fund to strike pursuant to Fed.R.Civ.P. 12(f). For reasons discussed earlier, the Court will also deny the movants' Fed.R.Civ.P. 12(b)(3) motion to dismiss for improper venue. An Order in accordance with this Memorandum Opinion will follow.

FootNotes


1. The other bases for venue under § 78aa are the district "in which the defendant (2) is found, (3) is an inhabitant or (4) transacts business." Jacobs v. Hanson, 464 F.Supp. 777, 781-82 (D.Del.1979).
2. Some courts have held that the "co-conspirator venue" theory only applies where venue has been established over one conspirator by reason of an "act or transaction" performed in the district by that conspirator in furtherance of the conspiracy. In re Towner Petroleum Co. Securities Litig. — MDL 607, MDL Docket 607, slip op., 1986 WL 290, *16 n. 13, (E.D.Pa. June 30, 1986); Schreiber v. W.E. Hutton & Co., 382 F.Supp. 297, 298-99 (D.D.C.1974). For this reason, the Court has not addressed whether venue is proper over any of the defendants based on their "presence" in the District of Delaware under § 78aa.
3. See e.g., Securities Investor Protection Corp. v. Vigman, 764 F.2d 1309, 1317-18 (9th Cir.1985) (citing several cases at 1317 n. 4 & 5); Hilgeman v. National Ins. Co. of America, 547 F.2d 298 (5th Cir.1977); Wyndham Assoc. v. Bintliff, 398 F.2d 614, 620 (2d Cir.1968), cert. denied, 393 U.S. 977, 89 S.Ct. 444, 21 L.Ed.2d 438 (1968); Booth v. Alvin Petroleum, Inc., Civil Action No. 85-3221, slip op., 1987 WL 6748, *2, 1987 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 1110, *6 (E.D.Pa. February 9, 1987); In re Towner Petroleum, 1986 WL 290, *12; Ferber v. Morgan Stanley Co., Inc., Civil Action No. 83-1470, slip op., 1984 WL 2397, Fed.Sec.L.Rep. (CCH) ¶ 99,684 (E.D.Pa. February 14, 1984); Carty v. Health-Chem Corp., 567 F.Supp. 1, 3 (E.D.Pa.1982); Hill v. Turner, 492 F.Supp. 61, 63 (M.D.Pa.1980); B & B Inv. Club v. Kleinert's, Inc., 391 F.Supp. 720, 728 (E.D.Pa. 1975); Arpet, Ltd. v. Homans, 390 F.Supp. 908, 911 (W.D.Pa.1975); In re Penn Cent. Sec. Litig., 338 F.Supp. 438, 440 (E.D.Pa.1972); Levin v. Great Western Sugar Co., 274 F.Supp. 974, 978 (D.N.J.1967).
4. The defendants only cited two cases in support of their position; Butcher's Union Local No. 498 v. SDC Inv., Inc., 788 F.2d 535 (9th Cir.1986); and Lisak v. Mercantile Bancorp, Inc., 834 F.2d 668 (7th Cir.1987), cert. denied, 485 U.S. 1007, 108 S.Ct. 1472, 99 L.Ed.2d 700 (1988). In Butcher's Union, the court did not reach the venue issue. While the court in Lisak did reach the venue issue, its holding is not inconsistent with this Court's discussion of venue under 18 U.S.C. § 1965. In Lisak the court of appeals remanded the case to the district court but made several observations to facilitate the district court's reconsideration of the venue issue. First, the court of appeals noted that "[s]ection 1965(a) deals with venue in RICO cases, but § 1965(b) creates personal jurisdiction by authorizing service." Id. at 671. Despite this comment, the court of appeals clearly did not intend to foreclose the use of § 1965(b) in establishing venue. The appeals court explained that as long as venue was established with respect to any single defendant under § 1965(a) or 28 U.S.C. § 1391(b), venue would be proper as to the other RICO defendants under § 1965(b) if the interests of justice required their presence. Id. at 672. Section 1965(b) therefore can be used to establish proper venue in a district.
5. Shuman v. Computer Assoc. Int'l, Inc., 762 F.Supp. 114, 118 (E.D.Pa.1991); American Trade Partners, L.P. v. A-1 Int'l Importing Enter., Ltd., 757 F.Supp. 545, 556 n. 16 (E.D.Pa.1991); Gurnicz v. Guindon, Civil Action No. 90-3796, slip op., 1991 WL 1009, 3, 1991 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 112, 6 (E.D.Pa. January 2, 1991) ("Section 1965(b) provides for venue...."); American Trade Partners, L.P. v. A-1 Int'l Importing Enter., Ltd., 755 F.Supp. 1292, 1304-05 (E.D.Pa.1990); S.D. Warren Co. v. Engelman, Civil Action No. 87-8339, slip op., 1988 WL 97661, *4-5, 1988 U.S.Dist LEXIS 10474, 12-13 (E.D.Pa. September 20, 1988); Koropey v. Resort Dev. Corp., Civil Action No. 87-5355, slip op., 1988 WL 76132 1988 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 7346 (E.D.Pa. July 11, 1988); Bhatla v. Resort Dev. Corp., Civil Action No. 86-7099, slip op., 1987 WL 28367, *2-3, 1987 U.S.Dist LEXIS 11835, 7-8 (E.D.Pa. December 17, 1987); Shulton, Inc. v. Optel Corp., Civil Action No. 85-2925, slip op., 1986 WL 15617, *4-5 & n. 3, 1987-1 Trade Cas. (CCH) ¶ 67,436 (D.N.J. September 29, 1986); Leavey v. Blinder, Robinson & Co., Inc., Civil Action No. 85-7018, slip op., 1986 WL 10556, Fed.Sec.L.Rep. (CCH) ¶ 92,996 (E.D.Pa. September 18, 1986); Farmer's Bank of the State of Delaware v. Bell Mortg. Corp. (Farmer's Bank I), 452 F.Supp. 1278, 1282 & n. 8 (D.Del.1978) ("§ 1965(b) provides that the district court may summon other parties over whom there would not otherwise be venue in the district if `it is shown that the ends of justice [so] require....'").
6. 1A-Pt 2 J. Moore, Moore's Federal Practice ¶ 0.340[1.-1] at 4007 (2d ed. 1991) ("In general, limitations on venue afford a defendant some protection against being forced to defend an action in a district remote from his residence, or remote from the place where the events underlying the controversy occurred....")
7. Addressing the personal jurisdiction implications of § 1965(b) the court of appeals in Lisak noted: "Section 1965(b) authorizes nationwide service of process so that at least one court will have jurisdiction over everyone connected with any RICO enterprise." Id. 834 F.2d at 672.
8. Shulton, 1986 WL 15617, *4 ("The `ends of justice' provision furthers the congressional purpose of `eradicating organized crime in this country' by enabling plaintiffs `to bring all members of a nationwide RICO conspiracy before a court in a single trial,' without unnecessarily sacrificing any defendant's interest in having the action litigated in a forum convenient to it.") (citation omitted).
9. S.D. Warren, 1988 WL 97661, *5, 1988 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 10474, 13; Koropey, 1988 WL 76132, *1, 1988 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 7346, 3; Bhatla, 1987 WL 28367, *2-3, 1987 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 11835, 7; Shulton, 1986 WL 15617, *4 ("Generally, however, the ends of justice requirement [of § 1965(b)] is fulfilled when venue is properly laid in the district in question under section 1965(a) at least as to one defendant, and there exists no other district in which venue would be appropriate as to all defendants.").
10. At oral argument, counsel for the movants suggested that pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1391(b)(2) venue is proper as to all defendants in either the Western District of New York or the Northern District of Texas. In pertinent part § 1391(b)(2) states that venue is proper in "a judicial district in which a substantial part of the events or omissions giving rise to the claim occurred...." The movants have not informed the Court of any "events or omissions" occurring in the two preferred districts. The only event referred to by the movants is the filing of certain documents with the Securities and Exchange Commission in Washington, D.C. (D.I. 44 at 15). On the other hand, the plaintiffs have shown that at least one crucial event occurred in Delaware, the formation of Quantum, and that it is impossible to say in which districts a "substantial part of the events" occurred because the defendants can be found in New York, Texas, Illinois, Delaware, California and possibly Vermont. (D.I. 46 at 14; Oral Argument). Despite the protestations of the movants, the Court cannot conclude, at this time, that there is another district in which venue is proper with respect to every defendant.
11. Milton Roy Co. v. Bausch & Lomb, Inc., 418 F.Supp. 975, 977 (D.Del.1976); Louisiana Sulphur Carriers, Inc. v. Gulf Resources and Chemical Corp., 53 F.R.D. 458, 461 (D.Del.1971); 2A J. Moore, Moore's Federal Practice ¶ 12.21[2] at 12-175 (2d ed. 1991).
12. 2A J. Moore, Moore's Federal Practice ¶ 12.21[2] at 12-175 to 12-176.

Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I posted the Rochester article because it says that law enforcement believes he is the mafia head in Rochester in 2002 and he argues against it, so either he or law enforcement is discredited. Meaning that law enforcements word isnt gospel" so yes its relative and is an example of them not always knowing the truth.


Of course he's not going to admit to being the head of the Rochester mob. You think we can ring up Frank Cali and he'll say he's the boss of the Gambino mob?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
There hasnt been many busts in Buffalo fornthe same reason the Todaros and Falzone never were indicted on all the murders they were involved in, for the same reason that Bifulco was never indicted for all the murders. They clearly didnt have enough evidence to try and convict them


Apples and oranges. Todaro Sr. and Jr. were two unconvicted members of a family that suffered a shitton of convictions in the 80s and 90s.
The feds weren't able to convict them of anything, but the feds were able to say with confidence that the two mobsters were the heads of the Buffalo mob, and they declared that in the 80s. They also named them as participants in gambling, murder, and other crimes.
As well as this, the two Todaros weren't quite as in the firing line as one might think. By 1988, Todaro Sr. was semiretired and living in Florida. So the feds were probably looking to pin some old murders on him, but their real investigations were the ones that secured the busts. Todaro Jr., meanwhile, stepped down from his Laborers role in 1990 and, although said on wiretap that he'd try and keep his foot in the door and continue to exert control over the union, we know that this failed because his self-proclaimed "key guys" that were essentially to running the union, Peter Gerace and Peter Capitano, were booted out.

Also, the feds' informants were good enough at securing indictments combined with other investigative techniques like wiretaps, physical surveillance, forensics, and bugs, but feds didn't have that with the old murders that the Todaros were suspected in. No wiretaps or anything implicating them. So when a weaselly fuck like Sacco implicated the Todaros in murder, they couldn't use that as the basis for an indictment. When it's just one rat implicating someone in murder, then it's a tricky case to win.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I also believe that the kid who got busted with mortgage fraud, because of the cop who aided him and was convicted was friends with some members' that there is a direct link to the family

Got a link.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yea lol the San Jose mob, Seattle too right? I love your extremes that try to compare apples and oranges to try and minimize someones efforts. I dont care if you dont believe what I have heard. Youre missing the point of blogging.

You missed the point of blogging awhile ago when you told me to shut up because no one cares what I think. Open discussion.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yea no construction scams going on with companies with mob ties in Buffalo, the industry is all cleaned up nowadays. Nothing fishy going on here

Does every construction scam have to do with the Mafia? No, and there is no evidence that this Ciminelli one did. This was a plain and simple scam. What would the mob's role in this be? And don't you think that if there was a mob angle to this then prosecutors, feds and news reporters would lap it up?
I am not saying everyone in Buffalo is clean. But this article doesn't help your point because a construction exec committing a crime does not implicate the mob and, like I said before, many people who were once part of the Buffalo mob family probably still retained some form of criminal nature.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Are these Mafia-like tactics by Falzone??

http://www.debtorboards.com/index.php?topic=8789.0


Beyond the basic concept of debt collecting, these are not Mafia-like tactics. Wiseguys don't have law degrees, and don't threaten legal action against their debtors.
Is this the same Frank that's Leonard's brother?
If so, then this Frank has never been implicated in organized crime by the feds beyond the fact that his brother was a high-ranking member (to the best of my knowledge; I don't know too much about him). Frank Falzone ran for the Buffalo City Council, and was accused of getting his union job from his brother. Whilst this may be true, he was never actually charged with any crimes, accused of any crimes, or implicated in any crimes.
This forum post questions that he is a real defense attorney, and claims this is a scam to collect debts. But the fact is that Frank Falzone is a real attorney and has represented a number of defendants over the years (as well as running for Buffalo City Council). Here's proof:
http://buffalonews.com/1990/04/30/heidi-jo-kessner-is-bride-of-frank-e-falzone/
http://buffalonews.com/1993/05/13/actions-speak-louder-than-attorneys-words/
http://buffalonews.com/1989/04/04/woman-who-led-police-to-body-was-key-figure-in-1985-slaying/
http://buffalonews.com/1989/04/03/kenmore-couple-linked-to-death-of-former-witness/
http://buffalonews.com/2015/05/01/tonawanda-drug-dealer-admits-selling-fatal-fentanyl-laced-heroin/
http://buffalonews.com/1998/12/03/slaying-case-is-forwarded-to-grand-jury/

So no, this was not a Mafia-type loansharking operation. He is an attorney specializing in debt collecting. Whilst the loan-debtors on that forum you posted might call that into question, they're wrong.
The Mafia and their debtors know that what's going on is illegal. The Mafia waves guns at people and beats people up to collect their debt. They threaten with physical violence. What we have here is an attorney specializing in debt collection: and not just any attorney, but a Republician City Council candidate at that.


NickleCity, do you believe the feds and the Mafia in Buffalo work together? I'll have to read the detailed articles you posted when I get home soon.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:06 AM



Rooster in the following legal document you will see that Louis P. Ciminelli served as a trustee for mob controlled LIUNA Local 210 and was named in a RICO suit along with Leonard Falzone and numerous other Buffalo soldiers and associates.
[quote]

I think that's Rooster's point. But it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that a former mobbed-up construction exec is still committing relatively standard-level scams in the 21st century. If there was an organized crime or mob tie there, I'd be interested, but the fraud charges aren't connected to the Buffalo mafia.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nickle City, posted this on a different forum...maybe he can enlighten us a little.

I know an undertaker that did a funeral for someone in the Buffalo Crime Family from Niagara Falls a few years ago. Said there was a large Canadian faction in attendance and that everyone was coming up to talk to Butch. The unsabstanfiated report about the current administration seems to corraberate what this funeral director told me a few years ago.


How did he know who Butch was?


How did the funeral director know who Bifulco was? He worked for Colucci Funeral Homes in The Falls, lived in Niagara County most of his life. He was there for the funeral and interment for Sonny Nicoletti's, recognized Frank Bifulco from the papers and heard everyone calling him Butch.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nickle City, posted this on a different forum...maybe he can enlighten us a little.

I know an undertaker that did a funeral for someone in the Buffalo Crime Family from Niagara Falls a few years ago. Said there was a large Canadian faction in attendance and that everyone was coming up to talk to Butch. The unsabstanfiated report about the current administration seems to corraberate what this funeral director told me a few years ago.


How did he know who Butch was?


How did the funeral director know who Bifulco was? He worked for Colucci Funeral Homes in The Falls, lived in Niagara County most of his life. He was there for the funeral and interment for Sonny Nicoletti's, recognized Frank Bifulco from the papers and heard everyone calling him Butch.


Fair enough.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa


Rooster in the following legal document you will see that Louis P. Ciminelli served as a trustee for mob controlled LIUNA Local 210 and was named in a RICO suit along with Leonard Falzone and numerous other Buffalo soldiers and associates.
Quote


I think that's Rooster's point. But it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that a former mobbed-up construction exec is still committing relatively standard-level scams in the 21st century. If there was an organized crime or mob tie there, I'd be interested, but the fraud charges aren't connected to the Buffalo mafia.


Agreed there is not enough evidence to prove a mob connection with Ciminelli today. Probably never will be. Just like they never proved any illegal activity for Joe or Joe Jr. Todaro. To use your logic there were just good businessmen that ran into mobsters because they were Italian and had a business on the Italian West-side. There are many people who deny the Todaro's (especially Joe Jr.) were ever part of Cosa Nostra-because it has never been proven.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa


Rooster in the following legal document you will see that Louis P. Ciminelli served as a trustee for mob controlled LIUNA Local 210 and was named in a RICO suit along with Leonard Falzone and numerous other Buffalo soldiers and associates.
Quote


I think that's Rooster's point. But it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that a former mobbed-up construction exec is still committing relatively standard-level scams in the 21st century. If there was an organized crime or mob tie there, I'd be interested, but the fraud charges aren't connected to the Buffalo mafia.


Agreed there is not enough evidence to prove a mob connection with Ciminelli today. Probably never will be. Just like they never proved any illegal activity for Joe or Joe Jr. Todaro. To use your logic there were just good businessmen that ran into mobsters because they were Italian and had a business on the Italian West-side. There are many people who deny the Todaro's (especially Joe Jr.) were ever part of Cosa Nostra-because it has never been proven.


Well, no, that's not my logic at all.
The feds directly said Joe Todaro Sr. and Jr. were the boss and underboss of the Buffalo mob, aka the Todaro crime family, and were involved in murder, loansharking, gambling, etc. Some mobsters have never been convicted of crimes, but we know they are mobsters because there is evidence that they are mobsters.
Ciminelli was never linked to any sort of mob ties since his union days. Remember that until the mid-to-late 90s, the mob dominated Local 210, and Local 210 dominated the construction scene. If a guy was a bigwig construction exec in the 80s and 90s, there is a distinct likelihood he was associated with OC. I'd be more surprised if there were no construction execs today with ties to the mob in the 80s and 90s.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:24 AM

Guys like Ciminelli were pretty much forced to do business with the mob in the 80s and 90s. We can't really assume that everything guys like Ciminelli do today is a reflection of their mob connections.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:28 AM

Quote
NickleCity, do you believe the feds and the Mafia in Buffalo work together? I'll have to read the detailed articles you posted when I get home soon.


My conversation with William Iannaconne they definitely used to and very well may still today. He certainly thinks so and thinks that is why 210 was never really cleaned up. ...And if 210 was never really rid of mafia influence, Louis Ciminelli at some point was a crime family associate--just like his Dad (according to Fino), then is it a stretch to think the Ciminelli scandal could be tied to the mob? After all Peter and Sam Capitano are still in leadership at 210 like they were in the mid to late 90's.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Quote
NickleCity, do you believe the feds and the Mafia in Buffalo work together? I'll have to read the detailed articles you posted when I get home soon.


My conversation with William Iannaconne they definitely used to and very well may still today. He certainly thinks so and thinks that is why 210 was never really cleaned up. ...And if 210 was never really rid of mafia influence, Louis Ciminelli at some point was a crime family associate--just like his Dad (according to Fino), then is it a stretch to think the Ciminelli scandal could be tied to the mob? After all Peter and Sam Capitano are still in leadership at 210 like they were in the mid to late 90's.


The Peter Capitano in charge is not the one that Joe Todaro said he trusted. That is his father I think. Peter Jr. and Sam Capitano have not being implicated in the mob, but Peter Sr. was one of Joe Todaro's favorite guys.

""Local 210 is now an aggressive but clean union that works hard to represent its members, according to Hill and James C. Logan, who represents 25 area contractors as executive vice president of the Construction Industry Employers Association. Both described Capitano, 46, as a tough but honest labor leader. Two other local contractors reached out to The News to speak in favor of Capitano.""
""Retired FBI Special Agent John "Jack" McDonnell said he believes the government cleanup of Local 210 and the Laborers - with Fino's help - was a major success. From 2000 until 2006, McDonnell oversaw all of Local 210's operations as a court-appointed liaison officer to the local.
"I know that Ron Fino supplied interesting and accurate information about how unions worked and how organized crime infiltrated Local 210," McDonnell said. "As for Sam Capitano, he was a very active, very vocal union guy who did fight against the takeover. He's an old-style, combative guy, but I have no information that he is involved with the mob."""

""Fino pointed out that, in the 1990s, Sam Capitano, the current business manager of Local 210, was an outspoken critic of efforts to remove mob influences from the Buffalo local.
In March 1995, then serving as a Local 210 steward, Capitano repeatedly told The News the federal government was greatly exaggerating the influence of mobsters on the local. He was a vocal leader of a group that filed a lawsuit, claiming there was absolutely no mob influence on Local 210 and no need for a cleanup.
Yet speaking to The News on Sept. 14 this year, Capitano said he is now convinced that the government takeover was needed and was successful in removing mob influences from the Laborers' leadership.
"We weren't against the reforms. We were against the way the trusteeship was put on us," Capitano said. "The reform plan that was put in place prevents [organized crime] from having any influence in our union...I feel these changes were good and necessary."""
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Quote
NickleCity, do you believe the feds and the Mafia in Buffalo work together? I'll have to read the detailed articles you posted when I get home soon.


My conversation with William Iannaconne they definitely used to and very well may still today. He certainly thinks so and thinks that is why 210 was never really cleaned up. ...And if 210 was never really rid of mafia influence, Louis Ciminelli at some point was a crime family associate--just like his Dad (according to Fino), then is it a stretch to think the Ciminelli scandal could be tied to the mob? After all Peter and Sam Capitano are still in leadership at 210 like they were in the mid to late 90's.


I don't think Ciminelli could be tied to the Buffalo mob today because I don't believe there IS a functioning Buffalo mob today.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 05:48 AM

Nick;

I was just reading all the back and forth.

I am the newest guy on here with the least experience so don't know how much my opinion can help.

This is my take.

I find it very very hard to believe that Giacomo, Rooster and now Nickel City all while they do not agree on everything
they agree that there is an active family

That these 3 guys would all be lying...

I do not understand what they would be getting out of lying
???

Especially because you some how have access to info that the average poster does not.


So my point is if they are lying that more than likely you can find a way to call them out on it.

Besides all the above do I think it is POSSIBLE that we can find out that the old gang was a little more intact then previously thought of.

One of the posts I read that guy Merotta tried to revive the family however, was unsuccessful maybe he tried again after MAYBE... That was an example of how maybe it was dead at one point and they tried to revive it.

Maybe after they tried once and failed the FBI wrote them off and was looking to see that they TRIED AGAIN.

I don't know if you look at the posts from Philly, I know it has nothing to do with this post, however, I wanted to point out that we found out yesterday that a whole crew transferred from the Lucheese to the PHL family a few years back...

We didn't know now we know..

There all types of shit going on that we don't know about.

I still get your point that you are a man of facts and the facts that can be verified today support your opinion that the family is dead.

I also think that this is an official "STALE MATE" and that this will just keep going round and round and round.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nick;

I was just reading all the back and forth.

I am the newest guy on here with the least experience so don't know how much my opinion can help.

This is my take.

I find it very very hard to believe that Giacomo, Rooster and now Nickel City all while they do not agree on everything
they agree that there is an active family

That these 3 guys would all be lying...

I do not understand what they would be getting out of lying
???

Especially because you some how have access to info that the average poster does not.

There are far more people that say the family is dead, than people that say the family is alive. Why would 3 people lie? Good question. Maybe they're not lying, but they've received bad info. But here are your options Bensonhurst:

FIRST OPTION:
Buffalo federal prosecutors Lee Coppola and Frank Clark, due to their long careers in LE and knowledge, know that the family is defunct now.
Buffalo FBI agents, like longtime organized crime agent Andrew Goralski, due to working full-time on investigating the Buffalo mob, know that the family is no longer active and, despite efforts to get more funding, have had to declare the family is dead.
High profile Buffalo and Niagara Falls journalists like Mike Hudson and Dan Herbeck, despite the fact that a mob story would be a great read and good for their careers, have had to concede the family is dead because it would be too much of a stretch to try and claim it is still active.

These 3 internet "nobodies" (I don't mean offense when I say nobodies, but that's what all of us on the forums are, pretty much) are telling lies, or have received bad information. People have told lies on mob forums for years, I guess because they like to pretend they are in the know and pretend they are street guys. Bear in mind that, whilst Giacomo has been nice and respectful this whole time to me, he admitted to lying about stuff on the Black Hand forum.

SECOND OPTION:
These 3 internet posters are actually far more in the know then I think. Bear in mind that all three of these guys have different stories, so actually only one of these guys could potentially be telling the truth.

This means that federal prosecutors are lying about the existence of the Buffalo mob. This is despite the fact that (according to Rooster) they are actively investigating the Buffalo mob. So, whilst they are making a case against Buffalo mobsters, they are simultaneously disputing its existence. This can only hurt their case and affect their prosecution. But hey, maybe they're just really, really, really bad prosecutors and that's the explanation for their lying.
This also means that FBI agents are lying about the existence of the Mafia, despite the fact that for the FBI to continue maintaining/increasing funding for a designated organized crime squad, they would need to describe the Mafia's threat to the community. But hey, maybe all these FBI agents really hate their job as organized crime fighters and want to get laid off by Washington and that's the explanation for their lying...
This also means that the Buffalo News' top mob reporter, Dan Herbeck, and the Niagara Falls Reporter's top mob reporter, Mike Hudson, are also lying about the existence of the Mafia, despite the fact that their mafia stories have always been very successful and everybody loves a good mafia story.
This also means that top mob expert Scott Deitche, who has a tried-and-true track record, is also lying about the existence of the Buffalo mob for some reason.
This also means that Ron Fino is lying about the Buffalo mob's existence for some reason.

So Bensonhurst, at a first glance it might seem hard to believe that 3 guys on a mob forum could be lying (remember that these 3 guys are all telling different stories...). But your choice of who to trust is between 3 internet forum posters who can't agree on the truth between themselves VS. an FBI organized crime squad, federal and district prosecutors, a proven mob expert, news reporters, and a Buffalo mob informer.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

So my point is if they are lying that more than likely you can find a way to call them out on it.

I have at least called Rooster out on it, and he still hasn't replied to all of my questions. However he says he will answer the questions, so I'm waiting on him.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Besides all the above do I think it is POSSIBLE that we can find out that the old gang was a little more intact then previously thought of.

Possible, but extremely, extremely, unlikely. That's why I am asking the questions I am asking. I don't claim to have street knowledge of Buffalo.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

One of the posts I read that guy Merotta tried to revive the family however, was unsuccessful maybe he tried again after MAYBE... That was an example of how maybe it was dead at one point and they tried to revive it.

Revive was maybe an overstatement. The family was weakened, sure, but wasn't quite dead. Marotta tried to bring it back and make it more powerful, which is what every boss tries to do. But it failed for reasons far beyond his control. By 2002 the family was "kind of" active, according to that same article, and it has since died.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Maybe after they tried once and failed the FBI wrote them off and was looking to see that they TRIED AGAIN.

All it takes is one loanshark client pushed too far, one indebted bookmaker, one extorted victim, one drug dealer facing life, one lead in a murder, one member to flip, for a family to come onto the radar for the cops. It is damn near impossible for an organized group of criminals to, in the 21st century, not come onto law enforcement's radar for over 15 years. It is possible for a family to avoid a high number of convictions, and avoid a high number of arrests, but it is very unlikely that a family with an organized crime FBI squad on their backs to be able to convince everyone they are defunct.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

I don't know if you look at the posts from Philly, I know it has nothing to do with this post, however, I wanted to point out that we found out yesterday that a whole crew transferred from the Lucheese to the PHL family a few years back...

We didn't know now we know..

There all types of shit going on that we don't know about.

True. But the existance of an entire mob family controlling gambling, loansharking, and unions is something that is far too difficult to keep a secret for 15 years, especially when (as Rooster has claimed), the family doesn't try to lay too low (Rooster says many in the community know about OC ties).

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

I still get your point that you are a man of facts and the facts that can be verified today support your opinion that the family is dead.

I also think that this is an official "STALE MATE" and that this will just keep going round and round and round.


Maybe. But I am asking questions to assess the validity of these guys' statements. Can you fault me for that? Isn't that what the forums are for?
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Giacomo, do you know the Rochester guy im talking about, i think he had bis restaurant torched i. Charlotte or Irondequoit. Was close to Falzone


Scratching my head. Phil passed away in 97', Ricky took off for Pittsburgh. Tony Pietra might be who you are thinking of, but most likely it is Ben Manning, as Pietra was on Pieri side and not the Todaros. 2005, I really can't think of any event, unless it was related to Gingello and Marotta which was a few years earlier than that.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 08:10 AM

Nicky, I take no offense, to that option you listed above, but I do know people in the life in Oneida, Monroe, Niagara, and Erie county (Oneida and Niagara mostly).

Question 4. I can only speak of Niagara and Oneida counties as those are very corrupt in law enforcement, while Buffalo and Rochester, you give a patrolman a few c notes a week, and they won't hassle your gambling or bookmaking operations. Thousands more and you have an inside source. Niagara county was brought up as being very corrupt and that is true.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Nicky, I take no offense, to that option you listed above, but I do know people in the life in Oneida, Monroe, Niagara, and Erie county (Oneida and Niagara mostly).

Thank you for understanding my point. You might know people, sure, but you can understand why one would take the word of a federal prosecutor over you or any other internet poster.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Question 4. I can only speak of Niagara and Oneida counties as those are very corrupt in law enforcement, while Buffalo and Rochester, you give a patrolman a few c notes a week, and they won't hassle your gambling or bookmaking operations. Thousands more and you have an inside source. Niagara county was brought up as being very corrupt and that is true.


But are they corrupt enough to the point where there can be an entire family under their nose and nobody knows about it? Or better yet, they actively deny it? I dont think that scale of corruption takes place anywhere in America anymore, at least not for the mafia.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 08:27 AM

That is pretty funny on San Jose, CA, but Figlia disbanded that family in 1995.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 08:31 AM

Niagara Falls and Utica, yes. Niagara and Oneida counties are extremely corrupt.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:18 PM

and heres his bust

http://www.niagara-gazette.com/news...07ee8a0-efb9-51c9-9ba8-49fdcccd47d6.html
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:21 PM

http://buffalonews.com/2002/05/17/14-arrested-in-rackets-probe-of-laborers-local-91/

No more union corruption Nicky, just a bunch of if Italians baking cookies and playing golf
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Nicky, I take no offense, to that option you listed above, but I do know people in the life in Oneida, Monroe, Niagara, and Erie county (Oneida and Niagara mostly).

Thank you for understanding my point. You might know people, sure, but you can understand why one would take the word of a federal prosecutor over you or any other internet poster.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Question 4. I can only speak of Niagara and Oneida counties as those are very corrupt in law enforcement, while Buffalo and Rochester, you give a patrolman a few c notes a week, and they won't hassle your gambling or bookmaking operations. Thousands more and you have an inside source. Niagara county was brought up as being very corrupt and that is true.


But are they corrupt enough to the point where there can be an entire family under their nose and nobody knows about it? Or better yet, they actively deny it? I dont think that scale of corruption takes place anywhere in America anymore, at least not for the mafia.


I take it you don't buy Iannaccone's thoughts? Do some research about the level of Fed involvement with the Buffalo Mob... It is the whole reason the NYState OC Taskforce was developed. Buffalo crime reporter Matt Gyrta corroborates in his book The Real Teflon Don with George Karalys (sp??).
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:24 PM

https://www.redstate.com/diary/labo...rs-local-91-cant-seem-to-shake-its-past/
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:30 PM

Gangsters Inc. indicates a Todaro Crime Family Soldier named Massimigliano Carfagna of Hamilton was sentenced to 10 1/2 years for cocaine and heroin/fentanyl trafficking. Their source is a recent Toronto Star article. It seems Carfagna’s arrest was part of the 3 1/2 year OTremens operation that layer saw the arrest of Giuseppe "Joe" Violi who is alleged to be the underboss of the Buffalo Crime family according to unsubstantiated reports.

For those who are not aware, OTremens is the operation where a “made member” of the Bonanno La Cosa Nostra family of New York City agreed to turn police agent and work undercover in southwestern Ontario."

The Toronto Star suggests Carfagna was a member of the Buffalo Crime Family during the Todaro reign. (Todaro was the last known and longtime Buffalo Boss of the Magaddino Empire which included Ontario Canada.) The article states that Massimigliano was arrested numerous times in the Untied States-specifically Niagara Falls. These arrests date back to 1987 and include charges for criminal impersonation and negligent homicide.

In what I assume is a plea agreement for less time Carfagna has incriminated the Violi brothers in this trafficking scheme. The Star writes:

Quote
In an agreed statement of facts, Carfagna agreed with the prosecution that, between March 1 and October 28, 2016, he and Giuseppe “Joey” Violi, 47, of Hamilton agreed to import 200 to 300 kilograms of cocaine into Canada. They sought to use the "police agent" from the Bonanno crime family and his connections to provide transportation for the cocaine.


The Big Question: Is the Buffalo Crime Family Alive & Active or has it been absorbed by Luppino/Papillia families of the Canadian 'Ndrangheta because that is where the real power is?

Another Questions: Why do Canadian papers consistently tie the Violi brothers and other individuals to the "Todaro crime family" instead just naming their Canadian family?

My opinion: There must have been a strong connection to the Todaros and Buffalo. To me this suggests the Todaros were heavily involved with the Canadian operations of their family, which leads me to believe they were a much stronger family than the Feds thought in the 90's/2000's. From what I've read in Buffalo newspapers the Feds claimed that Todaro Sr. would not allow his people to get involved with the drug trade. ...Given the information coming out now, It looks like they got it all wrong. It, also, makes me wonder if they were wrong in last year's claim in the Buffalo News that the "Mafia in WNY is all but dead."
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:31 PM

Im still pretty adamant about the 2005 bust but cant find it, Ill concede to not being able to find it Nicky if youd like or ill keep searching.

And i basically just answered all your questions.


Dont forget about the bust last year, remember, ya know, where members of the Todaro crime family were arrested. Again, lets wait and see when the Violi trial unravels. But let me guess, all these busts are just a coincidence to you and nothing to prove a viable family?

There was a bust in 09 at local 91 too
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:33 PM

Good connection Nickel
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:41 PM

@ Nicky I dont specifically remember actually saying shut up...what im saying is everyone has a right to say what they want and both our evidence refutes the other. I think journalists assertion of demise was greatly exaggerated and past law enforcement that had their words published didnt know the whole story or the ability to continue on as a crime family even after being weakened.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 12:45 PM

Nick,

I agree corruption on that scale today is really un heard of.

My opinion is that there are too many checks and balances in place.

With that said in Detroit it appears that some how they have paid the right people because for the most part the family as whole has not been touched.

Hence PART of the reason they haven't had many guys flip.

You had that one case and guy NOVE got 14 years and flipped.

Even when Tocco did get convicted they gave him no time.
Yes that was a whole ago.

More recently you had the Sicilian brothers that State again gave almost no time
So the feds picked up a case against them.

Something going on in Detroit that defies logic and common sense.

This is the reason why it is very hard for me to say something is IMPOSSIBLE
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 01:01 PM

Nickel,

Pertaining to your post Nicky, isn't denying anytjing about the Violo's
He isn't disagreeing that they were Buffalo, LCN
I think he agrees that they still are considered today Buffalo LCN5

He is saying they are out there representing themselves today rather than Buffalo LCN.

That yea clearly the Violo's are moving heavy weight
But there is no evidence to support that the Violo's or that matter any Buffalo LCN are operating as a family.

That he is right about.
There is no evidence

Meaning there are no wire taps as of today where you have any one from Buffalo referring to a boss, Passing money up etc.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 01:08 PM

Rooster there has to be a way to find the RCMP indictment or what ever Canada's term is.

I thi k if we can get that we might be able to put this to rest.

I don't know how good any of you guys are with this or if it's worth the time.

I but I think anyone can write a letter to the FBI and get copies of files under the Freedom of information act.

I am sure the FBI has a file on the Violi brothers even though thy are in Canada
Just a thought
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/27/18 01:14 PM

If anyone has time feel free
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 01:36 AM

I know youre reading these posts Rooster ~Nicky from Tampa

Rooster just ghosted ~Nicky from Tampa


I know youre reading these posts Nicky from Tampa ~Rooster

Nicky from Tampa just ghosted ~Rooster
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I know youre reading these posts Rooster ~Nicky from Tampa

Rooster just ghosted ~Nicky from Tampa


I know youre reading these posts Nicky from Tampa ~Rooster

Nicky from Tampa just ghosted ~Rooster


It's only been twelve hours Rooster. I had to read up on the articles you linked.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://buffalonews.com/2002/05/17/14-arrested-in-rackets-probe-of-laborers-local-91/

No more union corruption Nicky, just a bunch of if Italians baking cookies and playing golf


There's union corruption, but there's not a crime family running the union corruption.
Rooster, I have never, ever argued that there are no longer criminals in Buffalo. I'm not trying to argue that the crime rate in Buffalo is now zero because the Todaro crime family is defunct. The crime family was booted out of the unions, and it was very, very effective. Now, NickleCity might argue that the feds are working with the Todaro mob, but I don't think that's what you're arguing, Rooster. At least I hope it's not.


If you read that article, you'll see that nowhere do they try and say the Todaro mob is still active. Nowhere. They refer to it as a "former brutal criminal enterprise." It makes sense that there'd be infighting in that union. It comes as no surprise to me. The feds took it over, they booted the mob out, and then they left, possibly causing the infighting and potential power vaccuum we see here.

Tell me, in what way does that article show any form of mob corruption?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Im still pretty adamant about the 2005 bust but cant find it, Ill concede to not being able to find it Nicky if youd like or ill keep searching.

And i basically just answered all your questions.

Ok, so no 2005 bust. That's fine. But what is the bust where you said two soldiers were arrested for drugs and guns? And sorry, but I musta missed the 2012 bust, which were the ones I asked for.
That Red State article wasn't a bust. It was a report of a leadership dispute in the union.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Dont forget about the bust last year, remember, ya know, where members of the Todaro crime family were arrested. Again, lets wait and see when the Violi trial unravels. But let me guess, all these busts are just a coincidence to you and nothing to prove a viable family?

They were not mob busts. The Cohen bust was not a Buffalo crime family bust. You are claiming that it was a Buffalo crime family bust, whereas the feds (who actually made the bust), said it was a Lucchese bust. Cohen has never been linked with the Buffalo mob. The feds never mentioned the Buffalo mob. So no, it's not a coincidence. At all.
You can't find the 2005. So that doesn't count.
I don't know which bust was the 2012 bust, but I don't know if you've linked it.

The Ciminelli bust was also not a mob bust. Have you read the indictment? There were no allegations of any sort of Mafia involvement. And if there was any sort of Mafia involvement, you don't think that would have been described by Todd Howe?? Howe was an informant who uncovered the whole thing yet, surprise surprise, he didn't mention the Mafia or organized crime at all. Howe was a key player in the operation. He was the one taking the bribes. He was the one on the take, and later became an undercover informant to take the whole thing down. Howe spilled the beans on everything. You think he'd leave out such a vital detail as Mafia involvement?
The crimes in the Ciminelli bust were related to the bribery of government officials to save money on developments. There is no indication the mob would have anything to do with that. It's a scummy fraud practice that doesn't require some goon to break people's legs. The closest thing that the Mafia got to that case was the fact that Percoco and Howe referred to the bribe payments as "ziti."


Originally Posted by The_Rooster

There was a bust in 09 at local 91 too

Yes, because it's likely that the union still as corrupt aspects. U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara even said that there is a corrupt "show-me-the-money" culture that plagues Albany.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nick,

I agree corruption on that scale today is really un heard of.

My opinion is that there are too many checks and balances in place.

With that said in Detroit it appears that some how they have paid the right people because for the most part the family as whole has not been touched.

You say the family as a whole as not been touched, but they have. Just not to the extent of other families across America. I agree that Detroit is the most untouched mob family in America today when it comes to law enforcement, but they still get the occasional arrest. Law enforcement doesn't have the capacity or the drive to go after them hard. But arrests are still occasional, and law enforcement has specifically cited that they are still active. It's not comparable to Buffalo. In Detroit the feds acknowledge there is an active mob family, and busts are rare but still happen. In Buffalo, the feds specifically assert that the family is no more, and there are 0 busts. And I mean 0. Rooster's bust show no mob ties, no mention of mob ties, and no mob-related crimes.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Hence PART of the reason they haven't had many guys flip.

You had that one case and guy NOVE got 14 years and flipped.

Even when Tocco did get convicted they gave him no time.
Yes that was a whole ago.

More recently you had the Sicilian brothers that State again gave almost no time
So the feds picked up a case against them.

Something going on in Detroit that defies logic and common sense.

This is the reason why it is very hard for me to say something is IMPOSSIBLE


The reason people have not had to flip is because nobody has faced serious time. To a mobster, 14 years isn't really that serious. Not a lot of guys flip over 14 years. And in Detroit you have the added aspect that many of the top-ranking guys are related, which is another disincentive to flipping.

But here's the thing. If Rooster is to be believed, and the Ciminelli bust WAS a Todaro crime family bust (despite the feds not saying it was), and last year's bust WAS a Todaro crime family bust, then there HAVE BEEN Buffalo mob informants. Todd Howe, who was (according to Rooster) being bribed by Ciminelli, a mob-backed guy, (Ciminelli and his cronies did bribe Howe, but definitely not with any mob influence). Vincenzo Morena also, who was the catalyst of the indictment and secretly recorded a Bonanno making ceremony.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nickel,

Pertaining to your post Nicky, isn't denying anytjing about the Violo's
He isn't disagreeing that they were Buffalo, LCN
I think he agrees that they still are considered today Buffalo LCN5

He is saying they are out there representing themselves today rather than Buffalo LCN.

Yeah, sort of.
I actually haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that the Violis were ever made into the Buffalo mob. And in this recent indictment, they were working instead with the Bonanno crime family, not the Buffalo mob.

But what you are saying is right. If, for the sake of argument, the Violis were once associated with the Todaro mob, they certainly aren't anymore which is why they were working with the Bonannos.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

That yea clearly the Violo's are moving heavy weight
But there is no evidence to support that the Violo's or that matter any Buffalo LCN are operating as a family.

That he is right about.
There is no evidence

Meaning there are no wire taps as of today where you have any one from Buffalo referring to a boss, Passing money up etc.



Exactly. There is evidence they were working with the Bonannos, however.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 03:33 AM

Wait for Nicky....wait for it....I disagree in what you said and the family has a heirarchy and is viable
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 03:35 AM

14 years isnt a lot of time??? Lol, wtf
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 03:37 AM

Earlier in this thread it was that the unions are all cleaned up and now you say that union corruption exists. Cmon now Nicky
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Wait for Nicky....wait for it....I disagree in what you said and the family has a heirarchy and is viable


Unfortunately you have not a single credible source to back you up, and high-ranking LE officials, federal prosecutors, DAs, feds, acclaimed journalists, a mob historian and a former Buffalo member-turned-informant disagree with you. But please, tell me more about how because you are "from the area" you know more than every single one of these people about the state of the Buffalo mob.
Oh yes, and tell me more about how a Lucchese bust with a guy living in Buffalo constitutes a "Buffalo crime family bust," despite the fact that there is no proof the guy is or was ever associated with the Todaro mob and none of his activities were based in Buffalo. Hey, maybe then I can convince everyone on the forum that Carmine Agnello's 2015 arrest was a Cleveland mob bust.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
14 years isnt a lot of time??? Lol, wtf

Not enough to flip over, which was my point. Most made guys can do 14 years easy.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Earlier in this thread it was that the unions are all cleaned up and now you say that union corruption exists. Cmon now Nicky

Union corruption still exists, and will always exist. But the unions are all cleaned up FROM MOB INFLUENCE.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 07:07 AM

Rooster, Nicky won't totally accept that Brian Cohen was on record with Sonny or the Buffalo mob, mainly Sonny were partners with the Lucchese family. He is not completely ruling that out, but he demands proof. So I recommend to just drop it, as we have both said what we had to say on that.

On local 91
Michael Quarcini, Mark Congi, Dominick Dellacio, Albert Celeste, Andy Shomers, Salvatore Spatorico, and Anthony Cerrone are all associates to the Buffalo crime family. Dellacio and Quarcini are two of Niagara Falls top associates.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 07:21 AM

Back to my original questions you said you'd answered:
First question: Which busts were in 2005, 2010, and 2012?
- For the 2005 bust, you couldn't find anything, for the 2010 bust you cited the arrest of a confirmed Lucchese associate, who was confirmed to be working directly with the Lucchese family and nobody from the Buffalo Mafia. For the 2012 bust you haven't said anything (to the best of my knowledge). You also cited a Ciminelli bust which, despite the fact that there was an undercover informer on the inside, there was not even the slightest hint of mob influence. You also linked a Rochester bust from 2002, which only hurt your argument by saying that the family was "unsuccessfully revived" and only "kind-of" active. You also claimed that Leonard Falzone's brother, a Republican City Council candidate and registered attorney, was using "mob-like" tactics when you linked a forum based around debtors. The forum post you linked was written by a debtor who claimed that Frank was not a real attorney and was pretending to be an attorney to collect debts from a registered loan company. Since he is a real attorney, and I provided proof of that, that argument flies out the window.
Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
- You haven't got anything which suggests the unions are still mobbed up, and you have in fact linked articles that talk about the unions' "former brutal criminal enterprise" pasts. The key word there is "former."
Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.
- You never answered this. Giacomo also said you were wrong.
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
- You havent answered this question. You linked a 2002 article claiming that the Rochester mob was active, with the reputed boss denying it, as if that was supposed to make me think that "Wow, law enforcement was really wrong on that one." You do realize there hasn't been a single boss (excluding rats) to say "Hey, that's me, I'm the boss of the such-and-such family" when asked by press. Is there any universe where he would have acknowledged being the boss of a crime family? Jeez louise.
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
- You haven't even attempted to answer this.
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
- Haven't even touched this one.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?
- You also haven't touched this one.


You claim that the Buffalo crime family's existance has been proven. You said that the 2017 bust proved that the Todaro crime family had rebuilt ties to Canada. Here's your exact quote:
""at Nicky....In order to be rebuilding ties they would have had to lost them, so yes it can overlap. I never said currently losing. The big bust in '90 and the big bust last year prove they, had, and the bust in 03 prove they still had, and then probably lost to an extent, and somewhere in between, they rebuilt.""
Which is a complete lie. Last year's bust does not, at all, prove that the Canadian wing of the family has rebuilt ties to Buffalo. That's a complete fabrication. All we know at the moment is that members of the Todaro crime family were arrested in Canada. Remember, members of crime families can be indicted long after the family they are involved in is defunct.
You also explicitly said to Bensonhurst, when he first asked about whether the family was active ""(I am new here however, if LE the press and.indixtements are acceptable
Don't we have all of that with Buffalo now?
Since the arrest
?)""
you said, and I quote:
""Ofcourse, its already proven.""
It's not proven.
You state things as fact, with no proof to back it up. It misleads people. If it is a rumor, than say so. You plainly tried to say that the Cohen bust was a Buffalo mob bust, which (at first) mislead me until I researched and found out that Cohen does not have ties to the family and the bust was a Lucchese bust through and through.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I know youre reading these posts Rooster ~Nicky from Tampa

Rooster just ghosted ~Nicky from Tampa


I know youre reading these posts Nicky from Tampa ~Rooster

Nicky from Tampa just ghosted ~Rooster


I know this may be a dumb question, but what is ghosting?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 12:15 PM

Here is what we know:

1. What the Canadians call the Todaro Crime Family is active in Hamilton, NF, & MTA in Canada.
2. Canadian papers regular talk about the Luppino, Papalia, and even the Mustitano crime families (at least former) connections with Buffalo.
3. Buffalo has traditionally been, and is likely still, an important city for drug trafficking from Canada which has been dominated by Italian OC.

Questions:
1. Is the Todaro Crime Family that Canadian papers (and even the US Attorney in the Eastern District of NY) refer to an umbrella term for these GTA 'Ndrangheta families that are working together-like they did for Magaddino and Todaro in Buffalo?
2. Is Buffalo still a key city in drug trafficking routes from GTA to USA?
3. If it is, are these crime families in GTA using anyone from Buffalo or just their own people in crossing the border and trafficking through WNY to other destinations?
4. If they are using people from Buffalo, are those from Buffalo acting on their own or are the members/associates of the Canadian families in the GTA or a family here in Buffalo or both?
5. If they are using people from Buffalo where does the power resided? Toronto or Buffalo or Shared? Or nowhere because these are "independent contractors" so to speak in Buffalo?

My Thoughts:
1. I think it would be foolish to think there were not "mafioso" or at least "people" acting on their own from Buffalo that GTA mafioso are using to facilitate the trafficking on this side of the border.
2. There has been such a large mafia presence in WNY and such a large Italian poplulation and even ZIPS, that I cannot imagine there are no mafioso left--but could be.
3. If their are people in Buffalo facilitating trafficking of this scale, they have to be organized.
4. This "organization" on the WNY side may very well be submissive to the families that are working together in GTA (Think Todaro Crime Family), or even the Bananno family, but their is an organization.
5. The Feds have to know this...Thus when Adam Cohen the agent in charge of the FBI field office in WNY tells the Buffalo News the mafia in WNY is all but dead, last March... This is misinformation! ... They hope is the organization on this side (whatever it is) gets sloppy and caught. Maybe they feed this information to the media in WNY because they know of the O'Tremens investigation in Canada is heating up. Of course the media and Dan Herbek eat it up, because they/he want to celebrate the idea that their journalism exposed and rid WNY of the mafia and its influence.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Rooster, Nicky won't totally accept that Brian Cohen was on record with Sonny or the Buffalo mob, mainly Sonny were partners with the Lucchese family. He is not completely ruling that out, but he demands proof. So I recommend to just drop it, as we have both said what we had to say on that.

On local 91
Michael Quarcini, Mark Congi, Dominick Dellacio, Albert Celeste, Andy Shomers, Salvatore Spatorico, and Anthony Cerrone are all associates to the Buffalo crime family. Dellacio and Quarcini are two of Niagara Falls top associates.


You are right about that--and the Mayor of Lockport at that time (Tucker)--did all he could to help Dellacio form Lockport do less time.

Lockport Man Sentenced

The articles about this local 91 case never connect them to the mafia in WNY, but suggest they are associates and that we call them "wannabes" and "draw our own conclusions" about their connection to the mob. Here is the quote:

Quote
Unlike the International's takeover of Laborers Local 210 in Buffalo, the four-year investigation of Local 91 found not a union infiltrated by the Mafia, but something of a mob unto itself.

"Clearly, the organization of Local 91 is the criminal enterprise here," said Peter Ahearn, Special Agent in Charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Buffalo office. "Whether they were 'wanna-bes' in terms of how they did business, you can draw your own conclusions."


Here is the link to the entire article:

Niagara Falls "Wannabes"
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
- You haven't got anything which suggests the unions are still mobbed up, and you have in fact linked articles that talk about the unions' "former brutal criminal enterprise" pasts. The key word there is "former."


Nicky did you see my articles from the weekly Standard and Washington times that also suggested the LIUNA national and even its Local 210 in Buffalo weren't really cleaned up... It isn't just Fino who suggested it.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari


Paolo Violi was with Buffalo and Luppino before he moved to Montreal in 1963 as ordered to avoid John Papalia and Paul Volpe. He killed Natale Brigante on Stefano Magaddino and Giacomo Luppino orders. The Cotronis took him into their ranks and he served as a spy for Buffalo and Luppino to keep tabs on the Montreal crew and information on Stefano Magaddino cousin Joe Bonanno movements in his family. Bonanno was expanding rapidly since the mid 1950's, and Magaddino had Gaspar DiGregorio in New York keep tabs on Bonanno, but Magaddino was pretty much in the dark at what the Bonannos were up to in Montreal since John Papalia moved to Hamilton from Montreal. It's funny, that you can trace John Papalia and Paolo Violi to the Magaddino crime family when they started out. John Papalia from 1940's, and Paolo Violi from the 1950's. The Papalia and Violi families have roots to both Bonanno and Buffalo crime families.


Finally, someone that knows the history. A lot of people don't know this history, because they don't really understand how powerful Magaddino was in Buffalo.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa


By 1998, the Buffalo mob was "withering" as confirmed by the feds and the Buffalo News, reeling from federal convictions. http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/
The family's last bust was in 2002, of Sonny Nicoletti Jr. Frank BiFulco was convicted in 2003 of arson as well.

Here is a well-researched article by the Buffalo News which backs this up quite nicely:
http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/



Nicky do you really believe either of the Todaro's had gone completely legit well before 1998, and "shunned any contact with [their] former life" at that time?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Guys like Ciminelli were pretty much forced to do business with the mob in the 80s and 90s. We can't really assume that everything guys like Ciminelli do today is a reflection of their mob connections.


Nicky, Was Ciminelli forced to serve as a trustee for local 210?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.


Actually the Herbeck contradicts himself: "Herbeck in a March 2017 article quotes Fino as stating: "Joe Todaro Jr. moved on from the mob many years ago," and that "...there are a few remnants of the mob that still exist in Buffalo,...but it’s not the same.”--Mob in WNY Dead-March 2017 However, in a 2012 articles has Fino saying mob influence was never fully cleaned up from local 210-because the Capitano Brothers are back in control--The FBI's Inside Guy--Fino 2012 So Fino doesn't say the Mob in buffalo is dead... As a matter of fact in his 2012 book he writes"

Quote

Leonard Falzone: Enforcer for the Todaro Family. Some say he is the current boss but I believe it is Joe Todaro Sr. and that Leonard is fronting for him.---Fino, Ronald; Michael Rizzo. Covert Operations: The Triangle Exit: The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) (Kindle Locations 5104-5106). Contento De Semrik. Kindle Edition.


Additionally Nicky, in a previous post you say Peter Capitano Jr. isn't the Peter Capitano Ron refers to in the Buffalo News article I mentioned above, he refers to Peter Sr... But you are wrong. Fino writes:

Quote

Peter Capitano Jr.: Strong associate of Joe Todaro Jr. and Victor Sansanese. Came from the Pizza gang and was placed into his leadership role by the Todaros. At first fought the takeover of Local 210 Laborers Union International. Today, now that he is back in the leadership states it was a good idea.--Fino, Ronald; Michael Rizzo. Covert Operations: The Triangle Exit: The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) (Kindle Locations 5071-5073). Contento De Semrik. Kindle Edition.


He writes this about Peter's brother Sam:

Quote

Samuel Capitano: Brother of Peter and a member of the Pizza Gang; a confident of Joseph Todaro Jr.--Fino, Ronald; Michael Rizzo. Covert Operations: The Triangle Exit: The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) (Kindle Locations 5074-5075). Contento De Semrik. Kindle Edition.


To me it is obvious that Herbeck has contradicted himself and forgot about his 2012 article with Fino when he wrote the March article about the Buffalo Mob being dead. Also, do you find it strange that Herbeck's March article is basically the same as Lee Copolla's from 1998? If "The Arm" was withered and dead in '98.... why is it new that is dead in 2017. Here is the link to Copolla's article: Lee Copolla's Article "Whithered Hand--1998"

And if, as Fino writes, there was a front boss for the family in the late 2000's/2010's their is an organized administration in Buffalo, even if they do share power with the Canadian factions. Or I will even give you that the Canadian factions has the power now..., but Buffalo is still active.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 11:07 PM

Great stuff guys
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 11:10 PM

The longer winded that Nicky gets in his posts the more he prays he is right and none of what we are saying is credible.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 11:11 PM

Its ok Nicky, Localzo is still the boss of Tampa, at least we know thats the truth
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 11:26 PM

Honestly I thought Nicky was being a real hard ass with you guys

However, yesterday I read through the links of the articles that were posted I think by Rooster

I find one thing very strange

Let me say I am not all saying I do not believe you guys
But here are my thoughts

Please let me know your thoughts about my thoughts:

I think we all agree that reporters will a lot of times exaggerate a mob connection because lets face it everyone loves a good mob story
So even if there is none or very little
A reported will add that to the story

I looked at all those articles and yes there were Italians commiting crimes, that were typically LCN crimes.

No mention of mob ties?

Why is that I am curios to know?

The other thing is if you google and please bear with me I am new and not the best at research that is all I know "GOOGLE"
But if you google Buffalo Mafia arrests

You get nothing for atleast the last 10 year or more.
Again why would that be?

Every other state that has an active mafia family has indictments and new articles.

I am curios to know why you think that is the case??

So the FBI states they are dead..OK
What about the state?

What about the drug dealers that got pinched and are looking at 10+ years that are doing business with LCN guys that are willing to flip to get out from under the jail time?

None of them either?
No CI's

No one has gotten shaken down and has run to the cops/feds?

Where are the gambling indictments?

Where are the drug dealers that also LCN
How come they haven't gotten pinched?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Honestly I thought Nicky was being a real hard ass with you guys

However, yesterday I read through the links of the articles that were posted I think by Rooster

I find one thing very strange

Let me say I am not all saying I do not believe you guys
But here are my thoughts

Please let me know your thoughts about my thoughts:

I think we all agree that reporters will a lot of times exaggerate a mob connection because lets face it everyone loves a good mob story
So even if there is none or very little
A reported will add that to the story

I looked at all those articles and yes there were Italians commiting crimes, that were typically LCN crimes.

No mention of mob ties?

Why is that I am curios to know?

The other thing is if you google and please bear with me I am new and not the best at research that is all I know "GOOGLE"
But if you google Buffalo Mafia arrests

You get nothing for atleast the last 10 year or more.
Again why would that be?

Every other state that has an active mafia family has indictments and new articles.

I am curios to know why you think that is the case??

So the FBI states they are dead..OK
What about the state?

What about the drug dealers that got pinched and are looking at 10+ years that are doing business with LCN guys that are willing to flip to get out from under the jail time?

None of them either?
No CI's

No one has gotten shaken down and has run to the cops/feds?

Where are the gambling indictments?

Where are the drug dealers that also LCN
How come they haven't gotten pinched?


Here is what we know:

1. What the Canadians call the Todaro Crime Family is active in Hamilton, NF, & MTA in Canada.
2. Canadian papers regular talk about the Luppino, Papalia, and even the Mustitano crime families (at least former) connections with Buffalo.
3. Buffalo has traditionally been, and is likely still, an important city for drug trafficking from Canada which has been dominated by Italian OC.

Questions:
1. Is the Todaro Crime Family that Canadian papers (and even the US Attorney in the Eastern District of NY) refer to an umbrella term for these GTA 'Ndrangheta families that are working together-like they did for Magaddino and Todaro in Buffalo?
2. Is Buffalo still a key city in drug trafficking routes from GTA to USA?
3. If it is, are these crime families in GTA using anyone from Buffalo or just their own people in crossing the border and trafficking through WNY to other destinations?
4. If they are using people from Buffalo, are those from Buffalo acting on their own or are the members/associates of the Canadian families in the GTA or a family here in Buffalo or both?
5. If they are using people from Buffalo where does the power resided? Toronto or Buffalo or Shared? Or nowhere because these are "independent contractors" so to speak in Buffalo?

My Thoughts:
1. I think it would be foolish to think there were not "mafioso" or at least "people" acting on their own from Buffalo that GTA mafioso are using to facilitate the trafficking on this side of the border.
2. There has been such a large mafia presence in WNY and such a large Italian poplulation and even ZIPS, that I cannot imagine there are no mafioso left--but could be.
3. If their are people in Buffalo facilitating trafficking of this scale, they have to be organized.
4. This "organization" on the WNY side may very well be submissive to the families that are working together in GTA (Think Todaro Crime Family), or even the Bananno family, but their is an organization.
5. The Feds have to know this...Thus when Adam Cohen the agent in charge of the FBI field office in WNY tells the Buffalo News the mafia in WNY is all but dead, last March... This is misinformation! ... The hope is the organization on this side (whatever it is) gets sloppy and caught. Maybe they feed this information to the media in WNY because they know of the O'Tremens investigation in Canada is heating up. Of course the media and Dan Herbek eat it up, because they/he want to celebrate the idea that their journalism exposed and rid WNY of the mafia and its influence.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/28/18 11:41 PM

Personally, i dont believe the actual Buffalo faction to be involved in drugs at higher quantities anyways.

And a lot of underlings or potential CIs would only have a chance to snitch on that illegal activity not truly knowing the intricacies of loans, gambling, labor fraud, pension skimming

I think that its real simple, theyve managed to stay way under the radar and are quasi legit....buuut there still is a heairachy

Giacomo just posted that the Local 91 bust jn fact contained associates, which I didnt know

I believe that the same thing happened in Buffalo, that happened in NYC although on a smaller scale.

Law enforcement resources shifted to terrorism and gangs and then the family was able to stabilize and increase membership and reassert its influence in Canada or vice versa, as Giacomo stated in an earlier post.

Again, personally, from what I hear and the recent bust last year and even the busts I have mentioned as being connected to the family show a viable family, I have no vested interest in them existing or not existing

Annnd there is holes in all our stories on this forum, even when citing sources we deem to be credible, which includes law enforcement and journalists
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 02:39 AM

Listen I am not trying to give anyone a hard time.

I personally think anything is POSSIBLE

I am just baffled as to why the news reports would just not mention anything mafia related

Would you guys admit that is is very very strange
What would be the motive

And again Nicky, wasn't saying:

1) That there are no mobsters left
2) That whoever was left was not commiting crime

What he is saying is that there is no formal structure

You have a made guy he is never unmade per se
However, if he is lending someone money he is doing it on his own at this point.

There is no one to kick anything up to.

And guys do retire
Is it possible that Todaro because he has all the Pizza money and business

Said ok I do not want to die in the can

i don't need the money

I am done

Would that be so unheard of?

He has the means to walk away and he just decieded it was best for him to do so.

Again anything is possible.

At this point I guess time will tell.

Thank you for sharing all that you guys have.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Listen I am not trying to give anyone a hard time.

I personally think anything is POSSIBLE

I am just baffled as to why the news reports would just not mention anything mafia related

Would you guys admit that is is very very strange
What would be the motive

And again Nicky, wasn't saying:

1) That there are no mobsters left
2) That whoever was left was not commiting crime

What he is saying is that there is no formal structure

You have a made guy he is never unmade per se
However, if he is lending someone money he is doing it on his own at this point.

There is no one to kick anything up to.

And guys do retire
Is it possible that Todaro because he has all the Pizza money and business

Said ok I do not want to die in the can

i don't need the money

I am done

Would that be so unheard of?

He has the means to walk away and he just decieded it was best for him to do so.

Again anything is possible.

At this point I guess time will tell.

Thank you for sharing all that you guys have.


Oh believe me, I get what Nicky is saying. I see why people outside Buffalo would think there is nothing left in WNY. There are times I have wondered if there is really a structured family do to the lack of indictments/news the last 10 years. But I've heard too much from people I know... clergy, undertakers, restauranteurs, and retired law enforcement that tell me otherwise. (And I know this is hearsay, can't be proven, and any yahoo can say they know somebody who knows--I get it!)

Todaro could certainly be retired... He has the money... However, I disagree with the Lee Coppola article from '98 where he suggests Todaro had retired from organized crime and gone legit many years earlier than '98... FBI even said he didn't "retire" till 2006.

I am just trying to prove that you can't trust the papers (another example Herbeck's Buffalo News articles where his Fino quotes don't add up.

Next, you have Matt Gyrta and George Karalus in their Book, The Real Teflon Don,, who say NY state couldn't trust the FBI... so they had to set up the "Forrest Avenue Boys" to fight the mob in Buffalo, because the FBI was inept or in bed with the mob. This was the precursor and template to NY States Organized Crime Task force.

Then there is Buffalo Lawyer William Gary Iannacone who makes another good case why the FBI in WNY can't be trusted and perhaps explain why the FBI was appeared to by "inept." He alleges in great detail the FBI used the mob in the MKUltra experiments. (Bensonhurst I think I am the one that you thought posted a weird article not Rooster.)

Admittedly the MKUltra and Mob connection seems weird... but man does Iannacone have documented evidence of Buffalo LCN and the FBI being in cahoots. He even has a tape where a US Attorney admits the FBI has dropped the ball in pursuing the murder of one of his friends. His name was Thomas Martin, and he was murdered by Iannacone's uncle Joe Pezzino, who was a made man. Ianacone writes:

Quote
In Oct. 1985 Joe Pezzino "Joe Pizza" my Uncle Joseph Pezzino visited me and expressed his anger over my continuing investigation and litigation in the Surrogate Court. He left out the door, but, immediately returned then yelled “You know your buddy Tom Martin?” He then puffs out his chest, points his thumb to his chest, grins wide and yells “Alright.”

On this tape recorded 10/27/07 Asst US Attorney Richard D Kaufman (who I've corresponded with since 1985) states "obviously the FBI is dropping the ball" on the Thomas F. Martin murder investigation involving organized crime.


Here is a link to the tape:

LISTEN TO THIS TAPE RECORDING
Iannacone with Assistant US Attorney

LISTEN TO THIS TAPE RECORDING
Here is a tape recorded of Iannacone talking to Betty Pezzino about Joe Pezzino and the murder Thomas Martin and others. Tape of Iannacone talking about his Uncle Joe murdering his friend Thomas.

You asked why no arrests in last 10 years... maybe its because of the collusion between the FBI and Buffalo LCN. Take a peek at this article by Dan Herbeck in 1989:

[Linked Image]

The article suggests buffalo continues to have a dismal conviction rate when it comes to organized crime. A Buffalo News story of May 7, 1989 is titled "15 deaths, 1 disappearance linked to mob since 1974: Arrests were made in only 1 case" and lists the following murder victims: Albert J. Billiteri, Jr.; Frank D'Angelo; William Esposito; Robert H. Reingold; a 64 yr-old "made man" who the FBI would not identify but say "may have been forced to hang himself under the threat that his family would be murdered if he did not"; Joseph C. Vara; John C. Certo; Peter A. Piccolo; Raymond Townsend (Local 91); William J. "Billy the Kid" Sciolino (Local 210); Carl J. Rizzo (Local 210); Albert J. "Big Al" Monaco; Joseph San Fratello (Local 210); Robert DiGiulio; Alan R. Levine; John Pinelli.

Could it the arrest rate be so low then, because the FBI is was working with the Buffalo Crime Family as Iannacone suggests?

I don't know but it is good question and could be the reason we so so few arrests today--could it not?

Even more, this article and nearly all of these deaths/disappearances occur while the FBI has an inside guy working for them--Ron Fino! How can that be?

You'd think their inside guy could have gave them at least a few leads that would have led to arrests. I do anyway. Especially given the fact that these guys were all in Local 210 as we hear in the second tape.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 04:27 AM

Here is the thing there are a ton of unsolved mob murders from the 60,70's and 80's it was very common then.

And there are no federal arrests or state arrests
Come on you can have an FBI agent or two on the take

It happened in NYC and Boston

The whole FBI and the whole State
Every Cop, DA

You can have a cop
The whole polic force
?

You cannot think that is possible in 2018
??
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 04:29 AM

What does it matter if Todaro went legit in 98 or 2006

We are talking about today

For arguments sake lets say he went legit in 2007

That is 11 years ago

How does that impact this debate?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Here is what we know:

1. What the Canadians call the Todaro Crime Family is active in Hamilton, NF, & MTA in Canada.


Certain members of it are still active. They never claimed the entity as a whole is active, only that certain members of the family were arrested. That doesn't mean the organization or the entity as a whole is active. There are numerous examples of guys, even made, from defunct families that continue to operate independently long after the family has ceased to exist.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

2. Canadian papers regular talk about the Luppino, Papalia, and even the Mustitano crime families (at least former) connections with Buffalo.

The Musitanos murdered the capo and top second-in-command of the Todaro crime family's Canadian crew (the Papalia crew) in 1997 and there was no immediate retribution from the Papalias. The Luppinos, despite once being close to the Todaros, were also a separate faction vying for power.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

3. Buffalo has traditionally been, and is likely still, an important city for drug trafficking from Canada which has been dominated by Italian OC.

Yes, and the double murder in 1997 proves that the Musitanos were able to dismantle the Todaro crime family's control in Canada, and then (most likely) take over the valuable drug connection the Papalias owned.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

Questions:
1. Is the Todaro Crime Family that Canadian papers (and even the US Attorney in the Eastern District of NY) refer to an umbrella term for these GTA 'Ndrangheta families that are working together-like they did for Magaddino and Todaro in Buffalo?

No. It refers to members of the Todaro crime family in Canada. Guys that were made before 1997. Think about it. The Papalias were "dead as charity" by 1997, and to the victor goes the spoils. It makes sense that former Papalia members would have worked alongside, or partnered their lucrative rackets, with the powerful Musitanos or Luppinos.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

2. Is Buffalo still a key city in drug trafficking routes from GTA to USA?

Probably.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

3. If it is, are these crime families in GTA using anyone from Buffalo or just their own people in crossing the border and trafficking through WNY to other destinations?

There are probably guys from up north in Buffalo to facilitate things. Or maybe the Todaro-Papalia members, now partnering with the GTA families, have caught up with Todaro guys in Buffalo to help out on behalf of the outfits that took over the decimated Papalia clan.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

4. If they are using people from Buffalo, are those from Buffalo acting on their own or are the members/associates of the Canadian families in the GTA or a family here in Buffalo or both?

The Todaro crime family was never able to control or utilize the drug trade like other families in America or even the families up north.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

5. If they are using people from Buffalo where does the power resided? Toronto or Buffalo or Shared? Or nowhere because these are "independent contractors" so to speak in Buffalo?

The Musitanos wiped out the Buffalo's crew in Canada with the double-murder of Papalia and his top lieutenant. There was no subsequent gang war on behalf of Buffalo or the Papalias. So it's most likely Canadian associates helping facilitate things down there.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

My Thoughts:
1. I think it would be foolish to think there were not "mafioso" or at least "people" acting on their own from Buffalo that GTA mafioso are using to facilitate the trafficking on this side of the border.

I agree.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

2. There has been such a large mafia presence in WNY and such a large Italian poplulation and even ZIPS, that I cannot imagine there are no mafioso left--but could be.

The feds were able to wipe them out. The mafia in WNY did not have the same sort of power that other families in New York and New Jersey had. In Magaddino's era they certainly did though. The lucrative power-bases they did have (the UNIONS in particular) were very successfully wiped out by the feds, meaning that the Buffalo mob family lost its prized rackets, and had not utilized other rackets like drugs or gambling to the extent that NY families had. Last year's Buffalo News article analyses the many reasons why the Buffalo mob is no more, citing feds, prosecutors, mob experts, DAs, etc.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

3. If their are people in Buffalo facilitating trafficking of this scale, they have to be organized.

Yes. But as we have seen, the Musitanos cut the heads off Buffalo's Canadian operation and there was no resistance.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

4. This "organization" on the WNY side may very well be submissive to the families that are working together in GTA (Think Todaro Crime Family), or even the Bananno family, but their is an organization.

There is quite possibly a small but organized Canadian presence in Buffalo to facilitate the drug trade. The Todaro crime family is not a Canadian GTA family. It had a crew in Canada, which was eliminated by the Musitanos.
Originally Posted by NickleCity

5. The Feds have to know this...Thus when Adam Cohen the agent in charge of the FBI field office in WNY tells the Buffalo News the mafia in WNY is all but dead, last March... This is misinformation! ... They hope is the organization on this side (whatever it is) gets sloppy and caught. Maybe they feed this information to the media in WNY because they know of the O'Tremens investigation in Canada is heating up. Of course the media and Dan Herbek eat it up, because they/he want to celebrate the idea that their journalism exposed and rid WNY of the mafia and its influence.

Wait... what? You've really lost me there...
Why would Adam Cohen concede the mob in WNY is dead, if he is hoping that they get caught? That's a pretty big lie to uphold. Remember that most news outlets, including the Buffalo News, have LE sources on the inside that leak information (generally information that the FBI doesn't mind leaking, but still).
Also, denying the existence of a Mafia can only hurt future cases. I don't think that the feds have ever used the strategy of denying an organization crime group exists, whilst trying to make a case against them. It's a counter-productive move.
Also, the Buffalo News and the Niagara Falls Reporter have never patted themselves on the back for ridding WNY of the mafia. The feds did that themselves. It wasn't the Buffalo News that pressured the feds to go after the Buffalo mob, and the Buffalo News has never claimed otherwise. The feds in Buffalo followed the trend in the rest of the country to go after the mafia, and the media followed.

EDIT: This comment is only responding to the one comment Nickle City made. I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so bear with me.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Rooster, Nicky won't totally accept that Brian Cohen was on record with Sonny or the Buffalo mob, mainly Sonny were partners with the Lucchese family. He is not completely ruling that out, but he demands proof. So I recommend to just drop it, as we have both said what we had to say on that.

On local 91
Michael Quarcini, Mark Congi, Dominick Dellacio, Albert Celeste, Andy Shomers, Salvatore Spatorico, and Anthony Cerrone are all associates to the Buffalo crime family. Dellacio and Quarcini are two of Niagara Falls top associates.


You are right about that--and the Mayor of Lockport at that time (Tucker)--did all he could to help Dellacio form Lockport do less time.

Lockport Man Sentenced

The articles about this local 91 case never connect them to the mafia in WNY, but suggest they are associates and that we call them "wannabes" and "draw our own conclusions" about their connection to the mob. Here is the quote:

Quote
Unlike the International's takeover of Laborers Local 210 in Buffalo, the four-year investigation of Local 91 found not a union infiltrated by the Mafia, but something of a mob unto itself.

"Clearly, the organization of Local 91 is the criminal enterprise here," said Peter Ahearn, Special Agent in Charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Buffalo office. "Whether they were 'wanna-bes' in terms of how they did business, you can draw your own conclusions."


Here is the link to the entire article:

Niagara Falls "Wannabes"


This article was written back when the mob was still around, although definitely on its last legs. So it's not a stretch to say these guys were wannabes.
Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
- You haven't got anything which suggests the unions are still mobbed up, and you have in fact linked articles that talk about the unions' "former brutal criminal enterprise" pasts. The key word there is "former."


Nicky did you see my articles from the weekly Standard and Washington times that also suggested the LIUNA national and even its Local 210 in Buffalo weren't really cleaned up... It isn't just Fino who suggested it.


I must have missed those ones. I'll look back through the thread.
Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa


By 1998, the Buffalo mob was "withering" as confirmed by the feds and the Buffalo News, reeling from federal convictions. http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/
The family's last bust was in 2002, of Sonny Nicoletti Jr. Frank BiFulco was convicted in 2003 of arson as well.

Here is a well-researched article by the Buffalo News which backs this up quite nicely:
http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ned-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/



Nicky do you really believe either of the Todaro's had gone completely legit well before 1998, and "shunned any contact with [their] former life" at that time?


Joe Todaro Sr. had been semi-retired since the late 80s and living in Florida most of the time. I doubt Joe Todaro Jr. completely shunned his former life, but I believe that he made more money with his rapidly-growing pizza business than with the remnants of the Todaro mob. By this point his union control had completely gone because his two guys that were running things for him, Gerace and Capitano, were gone. Capitano's sons weren't, but they don't have a single black mark to their name and you can bet that the feds were all over those two sons during the big cleanup that lasted till 2006.
Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Guys like Ciminelli were pretty much forced to do business with the mob in the 80s and 90s. We can't really assume that everything guys like Ciminelli do today is a reflection of their mob connections.


Nicky, Was Ciminelli forced to serve as a trustee for local 210?

He wouldn't have been able to succeed in the industry as much as he did otherwise. The mob ran construction pretty hard back then, and Ciminelli's opportunities wouldn't have blossomed as much as they did without the corrupt role he served. So, in a sense, yes, he was forced to work for the mob or on behalf of the mob to be as successful as he was.

I'll be answering the following part of the thread next.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
What does it matter if Todaro went legit in 98 or 2006

We are talking about today

For arguments sake lets say he went legit in 2007

That is 11 years ago

How does that impact this debate?


Just shows you can't trust what is written in the papers...
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Here is the thing there are a ton of unsolved mob murders from the 60,70's and 80's it was very common then.

And there are no federal arrests or state arrests
Come on you can have an FBI agent or two on the take

It happened in NYC and Boston

The whole FBI and the whole State
Every Cop, DA

You can have a cop
The whole polic force
?

You cannot think that is possible in 2018
??



Iannacone seems to think so.... and I think it is improbable, but not impossible. Have you listened to his tapes...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.


Actually the Herbeck contradicts himself: "Herbeck in a March 2017 article quotes Fino as stating: "Joe Todaro Jr. moved on from the mob many years ago," and that "...there are a few remnants of the mob that still exist in Buffalo,...but it’s not the same.”--Mob in WNY Dead-March 2017 However, in a 2012 articles has Fino saying mob influence was never fully cleaned up from local 210-because the Capitano Brothers are back in control--The FBI's Inside Guy--Fino 2012 So Fino doesn't say the Mob in buffalo is dead... As a matter of fact in his 2012 book he writes"
Quote

Leonard Falzone: Enforcer for the Todaro Family. Some say he is the current boss but I believe it is Joe Todaro Sr. and that Leonard is fronting for him.---Fino, Ronald; Michael Rizzo. Covert Operations: The Triangle Exit: The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) (Kindle Locations 5104-5106). Contento De Semrik. Kindle Edition.



Good find NickleCity. I think in 2012, Mike Hudson also wondered who was going to take over following Todaro Sr.'s death, but conceded that there wasn't much left to take over and he wondered who the hell would want the job. So it seems that in 2012, the media wasn't sure what to think of the Todaro crime family. Fino included. But by 2017 these same reporters, backed up by LE, prosecutors, etc., as well as Fino, declared the family as dead.
1997: Buffalo reporters note this year as the time when the Canadian faction died. "Dead as charity," according to Mike Hudson.
1998: Reporters and feds conceded the Buffalo mob was withering away, almost dead.
2012: Reporters weren't sure about the mob's state, although conceded there wasn't much left. Fino (who publically flipped in 1989), speculated on who he believed was in charge. The feds didn't have much to say.
2017: Reporters, Fino, law enforcement, prosecutors and mob experts conceded the Buffalo mob was dead.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

Additionally Nicky, in a previous post you say Peter Capitano Jr. isn't the Peter Capitano Ron refers to in the Buffalo News article I mentioned above, he refers to Peter Sr... But you are wrong. Fino writes:

Quote

Peter Capitano Jr.: Strong associate of Joe Todaro Jr. and Victor Sansanese. Came from the Pizza gang and was placed into his leadership role by the Todaros. At first fought the takeover of Local 210 Laborers Union International. Today, now that he is back in the leadership states it was a good idea.--Fino, Ronald; Michael Rizzo. Covert Operations: The Triangle Exit: The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) (Kindle Locations 5071-5073). Contento De Semrik. Kindle Edition.


He writes this about Peter's brother Sam:

[quote]
Samuel Capitano: Brother of Peter and a member of the Pizza Gang; a confident of Joseph Todaro Jr.--Fino, Ronald; Michael Rizzo. Covert Operations: The Triangle Exit: The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) (Kindle Locations 5074-5075). Contento De Semrik. Kindle Edition.

[quote]
It can't be the same Sam Capitano. The current Local 210 Sam Capitano is 47, meaning that he was a teenager when Ron Fino went into hiding after flipping.
The Peter Capitano that was an enforcer for Joe Todaro Jr. and Victor Sansanese died in 2017. That Peter Capitano was booted out of the unions in the 1990s. Today's Peter Capitano is 51, meaning he would have been 22 when Fino flipped. Believe me, at that age Peter Capitano, 22, was not in any sort of leadership role per the Todaros. This means that Fino has his wires crossed, and is probably referring to Peter's father, Peter Sr., who definitely was an associate of Todaro Jr. and probably Sansanese, although was kicked out of the union in the 90s and never came back.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

To me it is obvious that Herbeck has contradicted himself and forgot about his 2012 article with Fino when he wrote the March article about the Buffalo Mob being dead. Also, do you find it strange that Herbeck's March article is basically the same as Lee Copolla's from 1998? If "The Arm" was withered and dead in '98.... why is it new that is dead in 2017. Here is the link to Copolla's article: Lee Copolla's Article "Whithered Hand--1998"
[quote]
The 2012 article never states the Buffalo Mafia is still active, or is still making money, or still has control over the unions. The only indication of that is when Fino, "while admitting he has no direct information about current wrongdoing in the local, Fino said he is skeptical of the Justice Department's claims that mob influences were totally removed from Local 210 and the Laborers international." He points to Sam Capitano as an example, but Sam was 18 when Fino became a rat, so all knowledge of Sam Capitano comes from when Sam was in high school.

Fino could not have any information past 1989. Although his knowledge of the family's workings before then is still very useful today, and he's a great expert on this sort of stuff, he's not as much of an expert post-1989 as Retired FBI Special Agent John "Jack" McDonnell, who worked for the FBI from 2000-2006, when the feds declared the unions in Buffalo to be mob free. Here's what McDonnell said:
"I know that Ron Fino supplied interesting and accurate information about how unions worked and how organized crime infiltrated Local 210," McDonnell said. "As for Sam Capitano, he was a very active, very vocal union guy who did fight against the takeover. He's an old-style, combative guy, but I have no information that he is involved with the mob."

Also, I find the 98 and 2017 articles to be pretty different, aside from the fact that they both talk about the Buffalo mob's demise. Remember that in 1998, nobody was saying the Buffalo mob was actually dead, just that it was in the process of dying.

[quote=NickleCity]
And if, as Fino writes, there was a front boss for the family in the late 2000's/2010's their is an organized administration in Buffalo, even if they do share power with the Canadian factions. Or I will even give you that the Canadian factions has the power now..., but Buffalo is still active.

That is speculation on Fino's part. Fino does not know whether the family is active or inactive post-1989, but those were Fino's thoughts on who the administration would be if the family were still active.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 05:29 AM

I agree the papers are nt 100%
But they will more than likely het you in the ball park.

That was part of my point if anytji g they tend to play things up not down play them.

If you are Italian and had a relative that was O.C. 50 years ago
They will say you have O.C. connections becaus that is a better story.

They never down play it.

So basically you are saying that you believe that Buffalo LCN family is running around town with a blank check.
They are doing whatever they want to whoever they want and have no fear of getting caught?

You don't think every family wouldn't be setting up shop to take advantage
Think about what your saying...

They are the only family to have no arrests and no rats for 15 years.
Because the FBI the State police the D.A.'s office are all on the take?

Does that sound right to you?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The longer winded that Nicky gets in his posts the more he prays he is right and none of what we are saying is credible.

So you're trying to call me out on writing long posts? How does that help your argument in any way? How is writing long posts a bad thing? What a useless thing to post...

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Its ok Nicky, Localzo is still the boss of Tampa, at least we know thats the truth

So this is what your argument is now? Calling me out for saying someone can be the boss of a defunct family? You've ignored my numerous explanations for saying what I said about LoScalzo. You've ignored the fact that the very same thing happened with D'Elia. Go back and actually read what I said, instead of ignoring it and purposely taking what I said out of context. Because that is exactly what you're doing.

Anyways, you sound like a broken record at this point. I guess you have nothing more to say than to nitpick and take one old comment in this thread purposely out of context. NickleCity is actually taking the time to put some thought and research into his posts, so maybe you should move over and let the big boys talk...
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Honestly I thought Nicky was being a real hard ass with you guys

However, yesterday I read through the links of the articles that were posted I think by Rooster

I find one thing very strange

Let me say I am not all saying I do not believe you guys
But here are my thoughts

Please let me know your thoughts about my thoughts:

I think we all agree that reporters will a lot of times exaggerate a mob connection because lets face it everyone loves a good mob story
So even if there is none or very little
A reported will add that to the story

I looked at all those articles and yes there were Italians commiting crimes, that were typically LCN crimes.

No mention of mob ties?

Why is that I am curios to know?

The other thing is if you google and please bear with me I am new and not the best at research that is all I know "GOOGLE"
But if you google Buffalo Mafia arrests

You get nothing for atleast the last 10 year or more.
Again why would that be?

Every other state that has an active mafia family has indictments and new articles.

I am curios to know why you think that is the case??

So the FBI states they are dead..OK
What about the state?

What about the drug dealers that got pinched and are looking at 10+ years that are doing business with LCN guys that are willing to flip to get out from under the jail time?

None of them either?
No CI's

No one has gotten shaken down and has run to the cops/feds?

Where are the gambling indictments?

Where are the drug dealers that also LCN
How come they haven't gotten pinched?



My sentiments exactly Bensonhurst. No matter how good a family is at securing itself, there is always going to be one junkie that rats out his seller, who (after facing 10+ years), might rat out a soldier or associate he's under, or at least become a paid informant. That's just one example.There's got to be tons of paid informers in the mob at the moment. Look at FBI records, it's always "CI advises this" and "CI advises that." A guy can be a paid informer all his life and nobody will know until he's died and the feds decide to use some of his old information in a case. Hell, the Colombos almost had a paid informer as their boss. Greg Scarpa Sr. got pretty close to taking power of the entire family, until catching AIDS from a blood transfusion gone wrong. Scarpa was a guy who became a paid informer long before Joe Valachi was ever on the scene. Scarpa was young, facing a few years on a burglary count, decided to drop the FBI some dimes every now and then for cash and legal help.
In fact, if you want a Buffalo example, look at Ron Fino. The guy was a paid informer since college.

In Detroit you still have busts in which law enforcement explicitly states a mob connection. Tommy Mackey in the last couple of years. The D'Anna Bros. in 2013. Busts are few and far between, but definitely still there. And law enforcement knows there is still a mafia there, and has explicitly said so. NickleCity has stated that the feds could be covering up the existence of the mafia in hope that they get sloppy, but I believe that to be an extreme stretch of the imagination which is unheard of in recent history.

With the Ciminelli bust, it wasn't just the feds following a paper trail and coming to conclusions based on financial irregularities. That was part of it, but there was actually an undercover informer involved in the case, who was taking bribes. This guy never, ever mentioned a mob connection. And he is the one guy that would KNOW of a mob connection. He's got no reason to hide that. Mob rats only hide stuff if they think it'll get them in even more trouble with the law, like how Tommy McLaughlin wouldn't give too many details on a home invasion-murder because he was the triggerman, and the feds didn't know that.

Originally Posted by NickleCity


Here is what we know:

1. What the Canadians call the Todaro Crime Family is active in Hamilton, NF, & MTA in Canada.
2. Canadian papers regular talk about the Luppino, Papalia, and even the Mustitano crime families (at least former) connections with Buffalo.
3. Buffalo has traditionally been, and is likely still, an important city for drug trafficking from Canada which has been dominated by Italian OC.

You are right on the second two points, but in the first point all we know is that members of the Todaro crime family have been arrested someplace in Canada as part of last year's Bonanno bust. However, none of these Todaro crime family members (there can only have been a few guys arrested since 9 in total were busted and we already know some of their names), have been charged with racketeering, or Canada's equivalent of it. So there's no confirming that they did what they did as part of an actual criminal enterprise, i.e. the Todaro crime family or the Musitano crime family or the Bonanno crime family. They were only arrested for drug trafficking.

[/quote]

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Listen I am not trying to give anyone a hard time.

I personally think anything is POSSIBLE

I am just baffled as to why the news reports would just not mention anything mafia related

Would you guys admit that is is very very strange
What would be the motive

And again Nicky, wasn't saying:

1) That there are no mobsters left
2) That whoever was left was not commiting crime

What he is saying is that there is no formal structure

You have a made guy he is never unmade per se
However, if he is lending someone money he is doing it on his own at this point.

There is no one to kick anything up to.

And guys do retire
Is it possible that Todaro because he has all the Pizza money and business

Said ok I do not want to die in the can

i don't need the money

I am done

Would that be so unheard of?

He has the means to walk away and he just decieded it was best for him to do so.

Again anything is possible.

At this point I guess time will tell.

Thank you for sharing all that you guys have.

Thanks Bensonhurst. You have summed up my points exactly.
Todaro's pizza company makes millions of dollars, and exports food all the way to Europe and China. He is at the place every day, full time. I think there is no doubt in anyone's mind he is fully retired by now, and has been for AT LEAST 10 years.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 05:47 AM

Will respond to the rest later.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari


Paolo Violi was with Buffalo and Luppino before he moved to Montreal in 1963 as ordered to avoid John Papalia and Paul Volpe. He killed Natale Brigante on Stefano Magaddino and Giacomo Luppino orders. The Cotronis took him into their ranks and he served as a spy for Buffalo and Luppino to keep tabs on the Montreal crew and information on Stefano Magaddino cousin Joe Bonanno movements in his family. Bonanno was expanding rapidly since the mid 1950's, and Magaddino had Gaspar DiGregorio in New York keep tabs on Bonanno, but Magaddino was pretty much in the dark at what the Bonannos were up to in Montreal since John Papalia moved to Hamilton from Montreal. It's funny, that you can trace John Papalia and Paolo Violi to the Magaddino crime family when they started out. John Papalia from 1940's, and Paolo Violi from the 1950's. The Papalia and Violi families have roots to both Bonanno and Buffalo crime families.


Finally, someone that knows the history. A lot of people don't know this history, because they don't really understand how powerful Magaddino was in Buffalo.


Magaddino was not one of the original Commission members just so that there would be a tie breaker. I believe that the families that had 100 members or more when the families were formed were Bonanno, Gagliano, Luciano, Mangano, Profaci, Chicago, Buffalo and Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh was still unstable after the formation, and members of that family transferred to other families, Italy and Sicily. That instability made them be passed over. Plus Magaddino had strong connections and access to Canada and had upper and west New York under his control.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 12:17 PM

@ Nicky, amazing how much of what you respond with is your own speculation with no proof. How do you now its not the same Capitano and that he wasnt a leader in his 20's, just trust you?

How do you know who took over what in Canada?

Now because Fino says it was active your questioning if he knew when before you were taking his word that the union was cleaned up?

Youre interjecting with your own thoughts and opinions in many, many of your responses now and simply using sweeping statements to attempt to corroborate what you think in articles to be the absolute truth.

I gotta get off this thread, Ive said my peace on the subject and time will tell.

Lastly, tell us personally if you have had any communication with anyone in Buffalo that may know about current Family status? You havent. Until a current member flips and says that it doesnt exist, it still does.

Again, again, again, lets wait and see what the Violi trial brings and lets see if there is any superceding arrests soon
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nicky, amazing how much of what you respond with is your own speculation with no proof. How do you now its not the same Capitano and that he wasnt a leader in his 20's, just trust you?

Literally everything you have said in this thread is your own speculation. From Buffalo being active, from guys being made, from the drug route to Canada.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

How do you know who took over what in Canada?

You think the Musitanos executed the Papalia clan for fun? To the victor goes the spoils.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Now because Fino says it was active your questioning if he knew when before you were taking his word that the union was cleaned up?

Fino doesn't say the Buffalo mob is active. He just says the unions didn't go far enough. There is a huge difference. Stop intentionally misleading people. What are you trying to gain by saying such obviously wrong stuff? "Fino says it was active" get outta here.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Youre interjecting with your own thoughts and opinions in many, many of your responses now and simply using sweeping statements to attempt to corroborate what you think in articles to be the absolute truth.


When I have an opinion, I clearly say "in my opinion." Whereas you claim it's been proven that the Buffalo mob is active, which it hasn't, and don't understand that just because you say something is so (with no proof) doesn't make it so. You don't seem to understand that people are smart enough not to believe a random internet poster after LE, prosecutors, etc. have called him wrong.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I gotta get off this thread, Ive said my peace on the subject and time will tell.

Phew.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Lastly, tell us personally if you have had any communication with anyone in Buffalo that may know about current Family status? You havent. Until a current member flips and says that it doesnt exist, it still does.

Actually yes I have. I talked to James P. Kennedy, Jr. yesterday, and asked him the state of the Buffalo mob. These were his words:
"The Buffalo mob? Jesus Christ almighty, that thing hasn't been around for 15 years. We managed to take back the unions, and although some say the cleanup didn't quite go far enough, by 2006 we were certain the mob had no sort of foothold there whatsoever. Up in Canada their faction up there was taken out by some rival Canadian mob groups. Musitano, I think his name was. Whatever was left of Buffalo at that point was decimated by our task forces."

What do you have to say to that Rooster...
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster


Actually yes I have. I talked to James P. Kennedy, Jr. yesterday, and asked him the state of the Buffalo mob. These were his words:
"The Buffalo mob? Jesus Christ almighty, that thing hasn't been around for 15 years. We managed to take back the unions, and although some say the cleanup didn't quite go far enough, by 2006 we were certain the mob had no sort of foothold there whatsoever. Up in Canada their faction up there was taken out by some rival Canadian mob groups. Musitano, I think his name was. Whatever was left of Buffalo at that point was decimated by our task forces."

What do you have to say to that Rooster...


This is NickleCity: I called the FBI field office in WNY and asked about the Todaro Crime Family arrests in Canada... Quickly and curtly I was told, "We are not allowed to comment on that."

Nicky did you ask why the US Attorney's office from Eastern, NY used the term Todaro Crime Family in the press release from November 2017?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 09:09 PM

Yea you talked to James P. Kennedy, and Im Maggadinos ghost from Christmas Past
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/29/18 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[quote=The_Rooster]@ Nicky, amazing how much of what you respond with is your own speculation with no proof. How do you now its not the same Capitano and that he wasnt a leader in his 20's, just trust you?


Nicky, Rooster isn't speculating about Capitano. Truly! Did you read the Washington Post Article I posted?

Sam and Peter Capitano were both suspended from the union for a year and prohibited from holding leadership positions again for 5 years after the suspension. Here is a the relevant section of the Washington Post Article:

Quote

In early 1996, Luskin asked Vaira to eject 28 Local 210 members. Their cases were pending for 18 months, meaning that Rosetti not only had to live with the accused, he had to pay some of them.

Three on Luskin's list -- including Sam Capitano, the former business manager's son -- had been elected to $25,000-a-year advisory board positions created by Luskin.

Capitano attacked Rosetti at one meeting, grabbing a microphone and yelling "Gabe, you got no balls." The next day, the two got into a fistfight and Rosetti fired Capitano from the board -- an action Capitano has contested before the National Labor Relations Board. He is suspended from the union.


From the Michael Bebee Buffalo News 1999:
Quote

Capitano and his brother Peter were part of a dissident group that seized control of the union hall on Franklin Street in March 1996 and initially kept the international's representatives from doing their job.

As a penalty for the takeover, both brothers agreed to a year's suspension from union membership and a five-year ban from holding office. Their father, Peter Capitano Sr., was removed as a trustee of a union fund by the international.


By the way, Peter Capitano, Jr. started working for Local 210 in 1983. He had already been employed by the union for 14 by 1999. Plenty of time to be a strong associate for Joe Todaro, JR.

Nicky, it is evident you are making assumptions without all the facts as well. That is OK, because this is complicated stuff. It takes a long time to wrap your mind around the details and figure out who is who.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 12:03 AM

I just heard from my friends in St. Pete that Pluto is the boss of the Tampa Crime Family ever since Localzo stepped down in 06-07, I can assure you of that.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 12:55 AM

@ Nicky, how do you know that Todaro is at La Nova every day full time?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 12:59 AM

@ Nicky, when you post, you dont say "in my opinion". You say things that are made up, as Nickel City just called you out on. And now you are speculating on a bulk of your recent posts when you tell everyone else they are speculating. What YOU dont realize is that when you call the kettle black people tend to see that you contradict yourself and the principles in which you are trying to prove your arguments with.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:03 AM

@ Nicky, do you believe that the Tampa Family went defunct in 2006-07 or earlier?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:14 AM

@ Nicky, also please, for the sake of all of us on this forum, explain who defines that there can actually be a Boss of a defunct family? Meaning who told you that Loscalzo (or Delia) is the Boss of the now defunct Tampa family and not the ex boss of the defunct family? Who has told you that this is the correct terminology?
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:44 AM

i belive( here theyh come to snuff the rooster yayhaya we aint die) name that song) theres still mob presense in all northeast citiies cutt off line pittsburg.
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:45 AM

i mean after pittsburg
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:49 AM

I think Nicky ghosted us, its been 15 hours.

What constitutes ghosting on this forum Nicky? Is it you? Im just asking so we all know
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:49 AM

Alice in Chains, great band in their day
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:50 AM

east of it. who the fuck nows whats goiing on in upstate. the feds kinda said violi in hamilton is either the underboss there and hes controls all of cananda. he should have stayed out of the fentanyl trafficking that shit is like the most un hornorable crime you can commit . give us some of that reall french conection herion . not some shit made in a chiniese lab then die on impact. really if the underboss of your family is selling fentanyl your extint. but he killed all the rizzutos who were dope guys . i cant call it. no wonder the hells angels said step aside were taking over up there. should have stuck to the bc bud till the wheels fell off.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:51 AM

@ Nickel City

Do you believe that all those Canadian guys coming up to Bifulco at the funeral clearly identifies him as a leader?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:52 AM

Thats actually a real good point pmac
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:52 AM

rooster say what ya want when ya want.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 01:55 AM

You get in trouble if you claim to know things that law enforcement doesnt know on here
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 02:00 AM

@ Nicky....the "Big Boys" were talking about this topic 2 years ago while you werent even around.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 06:18 AM

???
This conversation went in a different direction.

Anyway, Ron Fino, was talking about Peter Capitano Jr not Sr.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 06:21 AM

NickleCity, that sounds like the feds have an on going investigation.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:23 AM

What about this scenario?

They were dead for a while, the feds did shut them down for a while.

However, after such when they had the opportunity they re-grouped.

Maybe they started low key in Buffalo and they were in on the Rizzuto hits, they s
ended up re-connecting with Canada LCN and the Bonanno's again.....

They were dead and came back to life.

After the Colombo war in the mid 90's alot of the Orena faction never came back into the fold.

The faction was independent for about 10 years

In 2010 when Mush Russo took over as act I g boss he started calling guys from the faction in and threatening.

My point is a new old school boss took the reins and deceided he wanted to put the family back together again
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:29 AM

Maybe
?

Then both sides would be correct
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 09:26 AM

Jesus Christ, Rooster, can you not see the irony here? No, I didn't talk to the Buffalo DA. I wanted to see your response, and boy I'm glad I did.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yea you talked to James P. Kennedy, and Im Maggadinos ghost from Christmas Past

Here's my response to that:
"You guys are delusional."
You see, the basis of your argument is uncorroborated talks that you claim to have had with cops in bars. I've called you out in that, punched holes in your story, and you've called me delusional, full of crap, etc. You state your uncorroborated knowledge as fact, and do not differentiate between street talk and known fact. You've certainly fooled me a few times because you put things so bluntly and factually, but when I actually research it, it turns out there's nothing that backs that up/
Now, here I am turning the tables. I claim to have spoken to an LE official, and you say I'm bullshit. How ironic is that? You have claimed to have spoken to LE officials for this entire thread. Now, I claim to have spoken to an LE official and you call me bullshit.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[quote=The_Rooster]@ Nicky, amazing how much of what you respond with is your own speculation with no proof. How do you now its not the same Capitano and that he wasnt a leader in his 20's, just trust you?


Nicky, Rooster isn't speculating about Capitano. Truly! Did you read the Washington Post Article I posted?

Sam and Peter Capitano were both suspended from the union for a year and prohibited from holding leadership positions again for 5 years after the suspension. Here is a the relevant section of the Washington Post Article:

Quote

In early 1996, Luskin asked Vaira to eject 28 Local 210 members. Their cases were pending for 18 months, meaning that Rosetti not only had to live with the accused, he had to pay some of them.

Three on Luskin's list -- including Sam Capitano, the former business manager's son -- had been elected to $25,000-a-year advisory board positions created by Luskin.

Capitano attacked Rosetti at one meeting, grabbing a microphone and yelling "Gabe, you got no balls." The next day, the two got into a fistfight and Rosetti fired Capitano from the board -- an action Capitano has contested before the National Labor Relations Board. He is suspended from the union.


From the Michael Bebee Buffalo News 1999:
Quote

Capitano and his brother Peter were part of a dissident group that seized control of the union hall on Franklin Street in March 1996 and initially kept the international's representatives from doing their job.

As a penalty for the takeover, both brothers agreed to a year's suspension from union membership and a five-year ban from holding office. Their father, Peter Capitano Sr., was removed as a trustee of a union fund by the international.


By the way, Peter Capitano, Jr. started working for Local 210 in 1983. He had already been employed by the union for 14 by 1999. Plenty of time to be a strong associate for Joe Todaro, JR.

Nicky, it is evident you are making assumptions without all the facts as well. That is OK, because this is complicated stuff. It takes a long time to wrap your mind around the details and figure out who is who.

Their father

That means Peter got his membership for the Local at age 16. When he was 22, Fino went into hiding. That seems extremely odd to me that Peter was such a close associate of the boss of a major crime family when he was still growing hair on his balls.
And how would Fino know anything about Sam Capitano? Was Sam running the Pizza gang at his high school? Sam was 18 when Fino went into hiding.

If I really am wrong on this, then I apologize in advance. Nickle, I believe you to be more well-versed on the subject than I am. But how does that add up?
I am making assumptions on this, and I have never claimed to not be doing so.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I just heard from my friends in St. Pete that Pluto is the boss of the Tampa Crime Family ever since Localzo stepped down in 06-07, I can assure you of that.

But please, tell me more about how nobody called it the Todaro crime family before 2017.
I would expect people to tear me apart for what I said about talking to the FBI director. But for you to try and tear me apart his hilarious and shows you lack any sort of self-awareness, Rooster a.k.a. "I claim to talk to beat cops and they say basically the opposite of any and all high-ranking LE officials."

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nicky, also please, for the sake of all of us on this forum, explain who defines that there can actually be a Boss of a defunct family? Meaning who told you that Loscalzo (or Delia) is the Boss of the now defunct Tampa family and not the ex boss of the defunct family? Who has told you that this is the correct terminology?

What the fuck does it matter about the actual terminology? I mean really... is this all you have on me? Is this all you can call me out on? A person can be the boss in name alone. Research Billy D'Elia. Seriously. He was indicted as the boss of a family regarded as defunct. What about when Joseph Gagliano was indicted in 2014? You're not gonna start saying that New Orleans is still an active family, are you?
Did Vincent LoScalzo ever have a formal "I'm stepping down" ceremony? Did anyone ever take over from him? The media called him the "kingpin of no kingdom." I.e. the boss of no family. For a guy who claims to know about West New York, you don't even know about D'Elia?
It's really, really pathetic that you hold on to that one comment of mine with such pride. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are right on this whole terminology bullshit. What does that prove? That I misspoke on the correct terminology? Wow. I guess that means you're right. Move over FBI agents, federal prosecutors, DAs, Ron Fino, Lee Coppola, Scott Deitche, Mike Hudson, Dan Herbeck. Some rando internet poster has you all proven wrong. You know how? Because Cohen was indicted. Yup, that's right. That constitutes a Buffalo bust somehow, because a Lucchese crime family associate living in Buffalo is apparently a Buffalo crime family associate. A man who was acting solely on behalf of the Luccheses (and was indicted as such) is somehow a Buffalo associate. Because my beat cop buddies tell me so. Maybe these beat cops should quit spouting off to random guys at the bar and start making some actual busts. I mean, any bust whatsoever that even HINTS of Buffalo mob ties would be good enough for me. Because the Cohen bust doesn't count for reasons I outlined earlier. The Ciminelli bust doesn't count for reasons I outlined earlier. And the bust where you alleged two Rochester soldiers were indicted for guns and drugs doesn't count... you know why? Because you pulled that bust out of your ass.

So yeah, let's keep discussing what happens to the boss of a family once his family becomes defunct, and what the terminology is around it. Because that's apparently a more exciting topic to you than the actual questions I outlined (questions which should be simple to answer if you actually have these so-called sources."

Originally Posted by pmac
i belive( here theyh come to snuff the rooster yayhaya we aint die) name that song) theres still mob presense in all northeast citiies cutt off line pittsburg.

Good stuff pmac. You're a blessing to the forum s/.

Originally Posted by pmac
east of it. who the fuck nows whats goiing on in upstate. the feds kinda said violi in hamilton is either the underboss there and hes controls all of cananda.

They said he's the underboss there? When? Give me a link please.
Originally Posted by pmac

he should have stayed out of the fentanyl trafficking that shit is like the most un hornorable crime you can commit . give us some of that reall french conection herion . not some shit made in a chiniese lab then die on impact. really if the underboss of your family is selling fentanyl your extint.

Good thing the feds never, ever called him the underboss of the Todaro crime family. They didn't allude to it. They didn't "basically" say it.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You get in trouble if you claim to know things that law enforcement doesnt know on here

Wait a minute... Wait just one minute... Didn't you say your sources come from beat cops? That's law enforcement buddy...
So you haven't claimed to know things that law enforcement doesn't know. You've claimed that law enforcement DOES know these things, and they're telling you about it. But somehow they deny it to the press.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
What about this scenario?

They were dead for a while, the feds did shut them down for a while.

However, after such when they had the opportunity they re-grouped.

Maybe they started low key in Buffalo and they were in on the Rizzuto hits, they s
ended up re-connecting with Canada LCN and the Bonanno's again.....

They were dead and came back to life.

After the Colombo war in the mid 90's alot of the Orena faction never came back into the fold.

The faction was independent for about 10 years

In 2010 when Mush Russo took over as act I g boss he started calling guys from the faction in and threatening.

My point is a new old school boss took the reins and deceided he wanted to put the family back together again



That's an interesting point Bensonhurst. However I don't think it applies here, because the Orena faction wasn't entirely independent for 10 years. Many were brought back into the fold very quickly. It was those that refused to accept the Persicos that were left out. Guys like Sal Profaci. Guys like the Colombo Brothers. Ralph Scopo Jr. maybe. But guys like Joe Baudanza were very quickly brought back into the fold because they pledged allegiance to the Persicos very quickly. Baudanza was made capo or higher. It was a handful of guys that were left out of the fold, and they trickled back in over time. Ralph Scopo Jr. was one of the last ones but he was making a killing on his own with the coffee boy unions.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 10:41 AM

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html

Explain the inaccuracies in this article Nicky, supposedly a well respected reporter
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 10:42 AM

And so the Washington Post is lying?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 10:47 AM

@ Nicky lol, Im telling you that posters like you try and accuse posters like me of lying if they say the know things outside of what is printed that law enforcement knows, thats the irony. Any delusion clearly is from your lack of ability to understand peoples posts.

My knowledge is from knowing certain people, yours is from believing everything you read. Youre basically like a puppy, follow what youre told and hope you get led out to pee in time before you go on the floor
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 11:30 AM

@ Nicky, so now Nickle City is using reputable journalism, that you hold to be the gospel and its not good enough? It only is credible evidence when it fits your narrative?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 11:47 AM

http://aboutthemafia.com/passing-of-leonard-falzone-signals-end-of-an-era-for-fading-buffalo-mafia

In this article the FEDS, the FEDS identify Falzone as the leader of the crime family from 2006-2016
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 11:48 AM

Fading is not defunct and the Feds clearly have contrasting thoughts
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html

Explain the inaccuracies in this article Nicky, supposedly a well respected reporter


Like what?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nicky lol, Im telling you that posters like you try and accuse posters like me of lying if they say the know things outside of what is printed that law enforcement knows, thats the irony. Any delusion clearly is from your lack of ability to understand peoples posts.

You called me full of crap long before I began accusing of you lying.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

My knowledge is from knowing certain people, yours is from believing everything you read. Youre basically like a puppy, follow what youre told and hope you get led out to pee in time before you go on the floor


So your knowledge is from knowing certain people, huh? That's great and all, but when I claimed to have spoken to a top LE official, you accused me of lying. Where's the double standard Rooster? Because apparently I'm supposed to accept that you've been talking to all these cops off the record, but when I claim to have talked to a cop I'm a liar? That's my entire point here Rooster.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:06 PM

Just explain away all the articles statements I posted
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:07 PM

Like what? Like that the FEDS say Falzone took over in 2006
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:09 PM

I nevet said you were full of crap, again, you put words in peoples posts that never were there. But thats ok. What Ive said all along is that what you read isnt factual and all the contrasts in many, many articles posted by myself and Nickle City prove that.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:10 PM

Ok, fair enough, so youre saying that you really talked to Kennedy?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://aboutthemafia.com/passing-of-leonard-falzone-signals-end-of-an-era-for-fading-buffalo-mafia

In this article the FEDS, the FEDS identify Falzone as the leader of the crime family from 2006-2016

This brings us back to the Vincent LoScalzo argument I guess....

However:
AboutTheMafia is not, in my opinion, a valid source when it comes to Mafia news. They are a great resource because they compile Mafia news from across the internet into one place, but I wouldn't put much stock into anything they say if you can't cross-reference it anywhere else.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:12 PM

No it doesnt bring us back to Locsalzo, apples and oranges. The Gazette article says the same thing that he took over in 2006
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
To me, in your rebuttals and refuting, I consider you to be full of crap. So what is the point? For me to try to prove to someone that the family is viable? I already gave this info two years ago. Its active and holds a hierarchy, as simple as that.


There we go Rooster.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:13 PM

*Reporter, not the Gazette
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:14 PM

Fair enough
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Ok, fair enough, so youre saying that you really talked to Kennedy?

Go back and read the post I did ripping apart your hypocrisy.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:15 PM

Im simply asking you if you really did speak to Kennedy?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:16 PM

Why does the Reporter say that FEDS say he took over in 2006 and do you believe that the Washington Post is lying?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Jesus Christ, Rooster, can you not see the irony here? No, I didn't talk to the Buffalo DA. I wanted to see your response, and boy I'm glad I did.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yea you talked to James P. Kennedy, and Im Maggadinos ghost from Christmas Past

Here's my response to that:
"You guys are delusional."
You see, the basis of your argument is uncorroborated talks that you claim to have had with cops in bars. I've called you out in that, punched holes in your story, and you've called me delusional, full of crap, etc. You state your uncorroborated knowledge as fact, and do not differentiate between street talk and known fact. You've certainly fooled me a few times because you put things so bluntly and factually, but when I actually research it, it turns out there's nothing that backs that up/
Now, here I am turning the tables. I claim to have spoken to an LE official, and you say I'm bullshit. How ironic is that? You have claimed to have spoken to LE officials for this entire thread. Now, I claim to have spoken to an LE official and you call me bullshit.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[quote=The_Rooster]@ Nicky, amazing how much of what you respond with is your own speculation with no proof. How do you now its not the same Capitano and that he wasnt a leader in his 20's, just trust you?


Nicky, Rooster isn't speculating about Capitano. Truly! Did you read the Washington Post Article I posted?

Sam and Peter Capitano were both suspended from the union for a year and prohibited from holding leadership positions again for 5 years after the suspension. Here is a the relevant section of the Washington Post Article:

Quote

In early 1996, Luskin asked Vaira to eject 28 Local 210 members. Their cases were pending for 18 months, meaning that Rosetti not only had to live with the accused, he had to pay some of them.

Three on Luskin's list -- including Sam Capitano, the former business manager's son -- had been elected to $25,000-a-year advisory board positions created by Luskin.

Capitano attacked Rosetti at one meeting, grabbing a microphone and yelling "Gabe, you got no balls." The next day, the two got into a fistfight and Rosetti fired Capitano from the board -- an action Capitano has contested before the National Labor Relations Board. He is suspended from the union.


From the Michael Bebee Buffalo News 1999:
Quote

Capitano and his brother Peter were part of a dissident group that seized control of the union hall on Franklin Street in March 1996 and initially kept the international's representatives from doing their job.

As a penalty for the takeover, both brothers agreed to a year's suspension from union membership and a five-year ban from holding office. Their father, Peter Capitano Sr., was removed as a trustee of a union fund by the international.


By the way, Peter Capitano, Jr. started working for Local 210 in 1983. He had already been employed by the union for 14 by 1999. Plenty of time to be a strong associate for Joe Todaro, JR.

Nicky, it is evident you are making assumptions without all the facts as well. That is OK, because this is complicated stuff. It takes a long time to wrap your mind around the details and figure out who is who.

Their father

That means Peter got his membership for the Local at age 16. When he was 22, Fino went into hiding. That seems extremely odd to me that Peter was such a close associate of the boss of a major crime family when he was still growing hair on his balls.
And how would Fino know anything about Sam Capitano? Was Sam running the Pizza gang at his high school? Sam was 18 when Fino went into hiding.

If I really am wrong on this, then I apologize in advance. Nickle, I believe you to be more well-versed on the subject than I am. But how does that add up?
I am making assumptions on this, and I have never claimed to not be doing so.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I just heard from my friends in St. Pete that Pluto is the boss of the Tampa Crime Family ever since Localzo stepped down in 06-07, I can assure you of that.

But please, tell me more about how nobody called it the Todaro crime family before 2017.
I would expect people to tear me apart for what I said about talking to the FBI director. But for you to try and tear me apart his hilarious and shows you lack any sort of self-awareness, Rooster a.k.a. "I claim to talk to beat cops and they say basically the opposite of any and all high-ranking LE officials."

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nicky, also please, for the sake of all of us on this forum, explain who defines that there can actually be a Boss of a defunct family? Meaning who told you that Loscalzo (or Delia) is the Boss of the now defunct Tampa family and not the ex boss of the defunct family? Who has told you that this is the correct terminology?

What the fuck does it matter about the actual terminology? I mean really... is this all you have on me? Is this all you can call me out on? A person can be the boss in name alone. Research Billy D'Elia. Seriously. He was indicted as the boss of a family regarded as defunct. What about when Joseph Gagliano was indicted in 2014? You're not gonna start saying that New Orleans is still an active family, are you?
Did Vincent LoScalzo ever have a formal "I'm stepping down" ceremony? Did anyone ever take over from him? The media called him the "kingpin of no kingdom." I.e. the boss of no family. For a guy who claims to know about West New York, you don't even know about D'Elia?
It's really, really pathetic that you hold on to that one comment of mine with such pride. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are right on this whole terminology bullshit. What does that prove? That I misspoke on the correct terminology? Wow. I guess that means you're right. Move over FBI agents, federal prosecutors, DAs, Ron Fino, Lee Coppola, Scott Deitche, Mike Hudson, Dan Herbeck. Some rando internet poster has you all proven wrong. You know how? Because Cohen was indicted. Yup, that's right. That constitutes a Buffalo bust somehow, because a Lucchese crime family associate living in Buffalo is apparently a Buffalo crime family associate. A man who was acting solely on behalf of the Luccheses (and was indicted as such) is somehow a Buffalo associate. Because my beat cop buddies tell me so. Maybe these beat cops should quit spouting off to random guys at the bar and start making some actual busts. I mean, any bust whatsoever that even HINTS of Buffalo mob ties would be good enough for me. Because the Cohen bust doesn't count for reasons I outlined earlier. The Ciminelli bust doesn't count for reasons I outlined earlier. And the bust where you alleged two Rochester soldiers were indicted for guns and drugs doesn't count... you know why? Because you pulled that bust out of your ass.

So yeah, let's keep discussing what happens to the boss of a family once his family becomes defunct, and what the terminology is around it. Because that's apparently a more exciting topic to you than the actual questions I outlined (questions which should be simple to answer if you actually have these so-called sources."

Originally Posted by pmac
i belive( here theyh come to snuff the rooster yayhaya we aint die) name that song) theres still mob presense in all northeast citiies cutt off line pittsburg.

Good stuff pmac. You're a blessing to the forum s/.

Originally Posted by pmac
east of it. who the fuck nows whats goiing on in upstate. the feds kinda said violi in hamilton is either the underboss there and hes controls all of cananda.

They said he's the underboss there? When? Give me a link please.
Originally Posted by pmac

he should have stayed out of the fentanyl trafficking that shit is like the most un hornorable crime you can commit . give us some of that reall french conection herion . not some shit made in a chiniese lab then die on impact. really if the underboss of your family is selling fentanyl your extint.

Good thing the feds never, ever called him the underboss of the Todaro crime family. They didn't allude to it. They didn't "basically" say it.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You get in trouble if you claim to know things that law enforcement doesnt know on here

Wait a minute... Wait just one minute... Didn't you say your sources come from beat cops? That's law enforcement buddy...
So you haven't claimed to know things that law enforcement doesn't know. You've claimed that law enforcement DOES know these things, and they're telling you about it. But somehow they deny it to the press.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
What about this scenario?

They were dead for a while, the feds did shut them down for a while.

However, after such when they had the opportunity they re-grouped.

Maybe they started low key in Buffalo and they were in on the Rizzuto hits, they s
ended up re-connecting with Canada LCN and the Bonanno's again.....

They were dead and came back to life.

After the Colombo war in the mid 90's alot of the Orena faction never came back into the fold.

The faction was independent for about 10 years

In 2010 when Mush Russo took over as act I g boss he started calling guys from the faction in and threatening.

My point is a new old school boss took the reins and deceided he wanted to put the family back together again



That's an interesting point Bensonhurst. However I don't think it applies here, because the Orena faction wasn't entirely independent for 10 years. Many were brought back into the fold very quickly. It was those that refused to accept the Persicos that were left out. Guys like Sal Profaci. Guys like the Colombo Brothers. Ralph Scopo Jr. maybe. But guys like Joe Baudanza were very quickly brought back into the fold because they pledged allegiance to the Persicos very quickly. Baudanza was made capo or higher. It was a handful of guys that were left out of the fold, and they trickled back in over time. Ralph Scopo Jr. was one of the last ones but he was making a killing on his own with the coffee boy unions.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:17 PM

You got the Capitano stuff wrong and are misleading people, simple as that
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Why does the Reporter say that FEDS say he took over in 2006 and do you believe that the Washington Post is lying?


He may have taken over in 2006. Taken over the reigns of a very weak, disorganized, and reeling family on its last legs.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You got the Capitano stuff wrong and are misleading people, simple as that


How am I misleading people?
I let everybody know that I was offering my opinion/thoughts. And I still don't see how Fino could be talking about the same guys.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:21 PM

So then you must think that the Washington Post is lying, correct?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:23 PM

So he took over a Crime Family that the Feds claim was defunct years earlier? And then the Feds say he took over a beleaguered crime family years later?..and now youre assuming he wasnt able to stabilize and increase membership like a Joe Ligambi did?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 07:27 PM

The same guys too? what does that even mean? There was Peter Capitano, then there is Peter Jr. and Sam his sons. You can start working at age 14 or younger in New York
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You got the Capitano stuff wrong and are misleading people, simple as that


How am I misleading people?
I let everybody know that I was offering my opinion/thoughts. And I still don't see how Fino could be talking about the same guys.


Fino doesn't really talk that much about Peter Capitano Sr. Here is what the Buffalo News article says about Sr.:

Quote

The government and parent union, noting that the agreement to have Local 210 overseen by the international union expires inJanuary 2000,....

...Todaro Jr., the alleged underboss, who is accused of ensuring that the mob's wishes for Local 210 were carried out. He resigned as Local 210 business manager in 1990, but the complaint alleges he intended to stay active:

"During the same time period, Todaro Jr. told an individual in the meat cooler in the basement of his pizzeria that there was a lot of heat on Local 210 and that, although he was stepping down, he could keep his foot in the door and keep control of what he wanted to keep control of because his people, Peter Gerace and Peter Capitano, were in place."

(Peter Capitano Sr., former business manager, secretary- treasurer, business agent and executive board member, was found to be a mob associate by an international union appeals officer. Gerace, former Local 210 president, business manager and business agent, was also found to be a mob associate.)


That was in the 1990 timeframe that Todaro Jr. was heard saying that about Peter Gerace and Capitano Sr.

The same article talks about Peter Capitano Jr. and his brother Sam as leaders of the dissadent faction in 2006. Here is the quote:

Quote
"Our representatives now are mainly from Washington. They don't understand our needs," said Local 210 member Samuel Capitano.

Capitano and his brother Peter were part of a dissident group that seized control of the union hall on Franklin Street in March 1996 and initially kept the international's representatives from doing their job.

As a penalty for the takeover, both brothers agreed to a year's suspension from union membership and a five-year ban from holding office. Their father, Peter Capitano Sr., was removed as a trustee of a union fund by the international. "They say the dissident members are aligned with the old guard, which is B.S.," Samuel Capitano said. "What we stand for are labor rights. I want all of us to stand together and fight nonunion contractors."


Section above from article in Buffalo News Dec. 2, 1999 written by BeBee...
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/30/18 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The same guys too? what does that even mean? There was Peter Capitano, then there is Peter Jr. and Sam his sons. You can start working at age 14 or younger in New York


Peter Capitano Jr. linked in says he started working construction at age 17 almost 18. He joined the union in 1983. I assume those two fact go together but could be wrong.

When did Fino go in Hiding?

I think it was '89. So that is 7 years or so with Fino around... And he would have been 24-25 at the time Fino fled.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 12:19 AM

It was in 1989 when Fino went into hiding. Some in the Buffalo family suspected he was the leak in the Cleveland crime infiltration of the FBI office in Cleveland, but decided he wasn't when Jimmy flipped in Los Angeles, as they knew that Jimmy was told about it. It was 1988, when Ron came under suspicion again, which the Todaro's were not sure about it, so in 1989, they had Sam Cardinelli frisk Fino before a big meeting. Ron did not go for it and reached out to Danny Domino, who later told Ron that there is now a contract on his head over Cardinelli not being able to pat Fino down, and the family had known for years he was an informant.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The same guys too? what does that even mean? There was Peter Capitano, then there is Peter Jr. and Sam his sons. You can start working at age 14 or younger in New York


Ok then. Joe Todaro Jr., the underboss/acting boss of the Todaro crime family (a term which had been in use no later than 1989, Rooster), was a confidant to a kid in high school (or possibly a high school dropout). This kid, Sam, was also a member of the Pizza Gang, possibly in between ditching classes. But, even stronger than this teenage gang member, was a kid a couple of years older. This kid, Sam's brother Peter, was a "strong associate" of Todaro Jr. and Victor Sansanese and actually came from the Pizza Gang before being placed into a leadership role in the Laborers union in his late teens/early 20s. So how long was he in the Pizza Gang for? Did he start when he was 14, run with the Pizza Gang for 5 years, then was a union leader by 19? Who knows.

If this is really, truly the case, then that pretty much clears up any confusion I have about the family possibly still being alive. If, when the family was going strong, the underboss/acting boss was relying on teenagers to carry out his business, it's a wonder the family didn't die sooner.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 04:27 AM

By the way Rooster, why do you think the Musitanos whacked Papalia and his top lieutenant? For fun? Or to take over their rackets and interests?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 04:29 AM

By the way @pmac, when did the feds call Violi the underboss of anything?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The same guys too? what does that even mean? There was Peter Capitano, then there is Peter Jr. and Sam his sons. You can start working at age 14 or younger in New York


Ok then. Joe Todaro Jr., the underboss/acting boss of the Todaro crime family (a term which had been in use no later than 1989, Rooster), was a confidant to a kid in high school (or possibly a high school dropout). This kid, Sam, was also a member of the Pizza Gang, possibly in between ditching classes. But, even stronger than this teenage gang member, was a kid a couple of years older. This kid, Sam's brother Peter, was a "strong associate" of Todaro Jr. and Victor Sansanese and actually came from the Pizza Gang before being placed into a leadership role in the Laborers union in his late teens/early 20s. So how long was he in the Pizza Gang for? Did he start when he was 14, run with the Pizza Gang for 5 years, then was a union leader by 19? Who knows.

If this is really, truly the case, then that pretty much clears up any confusion I have about the family possibly still being alive. If, when the family was going strong, the underboss/acting boss was relying on teenagers to carry out his business, it's a wonder the family didn't die sooner.


Peter joined the union in ‘83 as he was about to turn 18. He was a confident of Todaro along with his brother Sam because their Dad was a made man—even though the government could only prove he was an associate. Todaro was grooming them for leadership. The Washington Post article talks about the leadership/advisory position Sam (the younger one) was in before both brothers were suspended and then banned from holding a leadership position for 5 years for leading the dissidents and getting in a fight with Gabe from Rochester who was serving serving as the federal trustee and placed there by Luskin.—Try reading the whole article instead of just skimming for items to prove your point. Sam and Peter fought the federal takeover after their Dad was removed from leadership-because they had been groomed by the Todaros to do so. Not rocket science here!
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
So he took over a Crime Family that the Feds claim was defunct years earlier? And then the Feds say he took over a beleaguered crime family years later?..and now youre assuming he wasnt able to stabilize and increase membership like a Joe Ligambi did?


Yes, that's what I am assuming. Do you know WHY I'm assuming that?

Because with Philly, it has been proven there have been recent making ceremonies, it has been proven there is an active hierarchy, it has been proven there have been active rackets. With Buffalo, there has been no proof of any active rackets, no proof of any recent making ceremonies, no proof of an active hierarchy. There has been zero indication the family is still active. If all it takes is for a former mobbed-up union guy to get busted (with no indication of any sort of mob ties), then you are setting the bar incredibly low.
In fact, with Buffalo, it has been stated on several occasions that the family is no longer active. No hierarchy. No chain of command. No structure. Nada.

You laugh at me for saying "You believe everything you hear", "you are like a puppy." Again, you really don't see the irony here. I don't believe everything I hear. That's why I don't believe YOU. That's why I don't believe some random internet poster who comes on and says that LE has told him the family is active, yet somehow LE denies the family is active. I believe the people that I know for a fact are "in-the-know." The FBI followed these guys around, bugged them, wiretapped them, until they were finally able to deduce the family was dead. DAs, federal prosecutors, all had to make cases against these guys. Once they couldn't make any cases, they realized the family was dead. Scott Deitche is someone with proven inside sources. Key word here: proven. Now, he is pretty sure the family is not active. I concede that he probably doesn't know as much as feds or DAs, but at least he has a proven track record. Ron Fino - the guy doesn't know as much as the feds or DAs, or maybe not even as much as Deitche, but he knows how the family operates and probably still has some friends in Buffalo who are in the know. He said last year the family is defunct, in his eyes. In 2012, he gave an estimation on what the hierarchy would look like.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 04:56 AM

Nicktfromtampa, and pmac, the feds did not call Joe Violi the underboss, that is from that chart that popped up last year. I have already said said that Domenici his brother would be a better underboss than him, followed by Natale Luppino and Bruno Monaco. Someone said that Monaco had a meet with Musitano two days before he was killed, but I only know about Bruno meeting with Rocco Sollecito on Tuesday night or early Wednesday morning before he was killed that Friday. As I stated before, the Papalia crew and family is a pastured crew, but that does not mean that Monaco can not serve in a diplomatic capacity.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Nicktfromtampa, and pmac, the feds did not call Joe Violi the underboss, that is from that chart that popped up last year.

I know. I just wanted pmac himself to admit he was making shit up.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity

Peter joined the union in ‘83 as he was about to turn 18. He was a confident of Todaro along with his brother Sam because their Dad was a made man—even though the government could only prove he was an associate. Todaro was grooming them for leadership. The Washington Post article talks about the leadership/advisory position Sam (the younger one) was in before both brothers were suspended for leading the dissidents and getting in a fight with Gabe from Rochester who was serving serving as the federal trustee and placed there by Luskin.—Try reading the whole article instead of just skimming for items to prove your point. Sam and Peter fought the federal takeover after their Dad was removed from leadership-because they had been groomed by the Todaros to do so. Not rocket science here!

I have never denied they were in leadership positions in the 1990s, I never denied the Gabe from Rochester thing, I never denied that they were suspended.

But Fino went into hiding in early '89. Sam was 18. Pete was 24. For Pete to be a " former member" of the Pizza Gang, and then a corrupt union leadership role, and a "strong associate" of Todaro Jr. is a lot to achieve by the age of 24. All I can say is, what's the point of a chain-of-command if the guy running the entire family is using a teenager as a top aide and confidant for his criminal activities...
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by NickleCity

Peter joined the union in ‘83 as he was about to turn 18. He was a confident of Todaro along with his brother Sam because their Dad was a made man—even though the government could only prove he was an associate. Todaro was grooming them for leadership. The Washington Post article talks about the leadership/advisory position Sam (the younger one) was in before both brothers were suspended for leading the dissidents and getting in a fight with Gabe from Rochester who was serving serving as the federal trustee and placed there by Luskin.—Try reading the whole article instead of just skimming for items to prove your point. Sam and Peter fought the federal takeover after their Dad was removed from leadership-because they had been groomed by the Todaros to do so. Not rocket science here!

I have never denied they were in leadership positions in the 1990s, I never denied the Gabe from Rochester thing, I never denied that they were suspended.

But Fino went into hiding in early '89. Sam was 18. Pete was 24. For Pete to be a " former member" of the Pizza Gang, and then a corrupt union leadership role, and a "strong associate" of Todaro Jr. is a lot to achieve by the age of 24. All I can say is, what's the point of a chain-of-command if the guy running the entire family is using a teenager as a top aide and confidant for his criminal activities...

Not a top aide for all his criminal activities... just the leadership in 210 he was groomed for—fighting the federal takeover. You can still be a “strong associate” with a focused role. I believe he and his brother worked at LaNova. Would have come up around the same time as little Joey. There is a picture of the “Pizza Gang” working the La Nova Booth at the Italian Festival on Hertle that is floating around. I’ll see if I can find it.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 05:32 AM


PIZZA 🍕 GANG?[Linked Image]
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 05:35 AM

Here is the ebook Dicarlo Volume 2
It covers the Buffalo LCN from the early days until 2012

In detail about Todaro etc.

Also, read the part about Fino, they really rip him apart almost to the point of that everything he says is made up.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SfXErrNv_BATYUmXfTGwm7nf5Z9pP9mS/view?usp=sharing
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 05:37 AM

Pmac is not making shit up, just confusing the sources.
Posted By: CabriniGreen

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 05:50 AM

I made a thread, Who are the Violi Brothers??


I think figuring these guys out goes a long way towards explaining whatever there is in Buffalo, Buffalos relationship with Ontario, also the relations between Buffalo, Ontario and the Bonnanos.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by CabriniGreen
I made a thread, Who are the Violi Brothers??


I think figuring these guys out goes a long way towards explaining whatever there is in Buffalo, Buffalos relationship with Ontario, also the relations between Buffalo, Ontario and the Bonnanos.


I agree
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Pmac is not making shit up, just confusing the sources.

Jesus, I wish I was given that kind of leeway. I said "Vincent LoScalzo is still the boss of the Trafficante crime family in name alone" and I haven't been able to hear the end of it...
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Pmac is not making shit up, just confusing the sources.

Jesus, I wish I was given that kind of leeway. I said "Vincent LoScalzo is still the boss of the Trafficante crime family in name alone" and I haven't been able to hear the end of it...


This is still going on? The_Rooster, LoScalzo is the official boss of Tampa. Same thing before Figlia passed away, he was the official boss of San Jose, even though Adragna, Ditri, Napolitano and Piazza were still doing business with other families, he was still the official boss.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Pmac is not making shit up, just confusing the sources.

Jesus, I wish I was given that kind of leeway. I said "Vincent LoScalzo is still the boss of the Trafficante crime family in name alone" and I haven't been able to hear the end of it...


This is still going on? The_Rooster, LoScalzo is the official boss of Tampa. Same thing before Figlia passed away, he was the official boss of San Jose, even though Adragna, Ditri, Napolitano and Piazza were still doing business with other families, he was still the official boss.


Thanks Giacomo. It's really a simple thing, don't know why Rooster can't wrap his head around it.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 11:49 AM

I guess its more of you trying to compare Tampa to Buffalo, thats what I see as ridiculous. Apples and oranges when it comes to modern day Mafia talk.

And I would like to point out something that was brought up a while ago by I forget who...they stated Buffalo is a small city, well technically yes the city is sorta, but the metro is over 1 million.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 11:50 AM

And again, Nicky, the irony is that the Feds, supposed reputable journalists, and Fino all have conflicting stories.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 05:38 PM

After reading the epilogue, I actually feel really bad for Carmine Gallo and his mother, Bifulco was putting it on him pretty bad and it caused him his life being associated and his mother being married to him.

As much as we glorify the Mafia by following and talking about it, there really is a sadness to it
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
And again, Nicky, the irony is that the Feds, supposed reputable journalists, and Fino all have conflicting stories.


In 2017, the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, Ron Fino, Scott Deitche, and Dan Herbeck all colloborated on a story talking about how the Buffalo mob was no more. That's not conflicting. Maybe in 2012 people weren't so sure. In 2006, the feds wanted to retain a structure (although that structure couldn't have been possible).
Here's the timeline:
2006 - Buffalo mob family has a structure, albeit a confusing and strange one.
2012 - Most people are pretty certain that the Buffalo mob is defunct. Fino suggests a possible structure for the remaining members.
2017 - Everybody agrees the family is defunct.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:08 PM

@ Nicky, except for the Feds have said that Falzone was boss until 2016 and except for the fact there was a bust in 2017.

Hence conflicting stories.

Again, we can go round and round and round and round and disagree. Is it really just you nees the last post on this thread and then youll consider yourself victoriius? What dont you get that that many people still believe the family to be active and viable for a number of reasons?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nicky, except for the Feds have said that Falzone was boss until 2016 and except for the fact there was a bust in 2017.

Hence conflicting stories.

Again, we can go round and round and round and round and disagree. Is it really just you nees the last post on this thread and then youll consider yourself victoriius? What dont you get that that many people still believe the family to be active and viable for a number of reasons?



And we're back to this argument:
A person can be the boss of a family in name alone. Hence Billy D'Elia. Hence Vincent LoScalzo. Hence, as Giacomo said, Figlia. He is the boss, despite the fact that the family he is apart of is defunct. He is the boss in name alone. This isn't apples and oranges. This is the case across Mafia families across America. Buffalo doesn't have special rules meaning it has different terminology. As long as that person never steps down, he is the boss until he dies. It's not difficult. I've explained this dozens of times. I even tried to use a nice little tree analogy for you to understand, and it still went way over your head.
Vincent LoScalzo is the boss of the Trafficante crime family. Is the Trafficante crime family still active? No. It's just happened that the boss and underboss (Frank Albano) have survived while the family around them has perished.

The feds do not consider the Todaro crime family active. They have said explicitly that they don't. Stop propagating this lie.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:25 PM

In 2006, you claim that they have a confusing and strange structure, what does this mean and what is your source?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:33 PM

Three people alone on this single thread believe it without any of my evidence, its not propaganda.

Tampa and Buffalo are apples and oranges as much as you try and bundle the two. Its a ridiculous effort to do so, but keep trying to make the point.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:34 PM

When the Feds say he was the leader from 06-16 of the family what was he the leader of Nicky?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:35 PM

Tampa has two surviving members of a family while Buffalo has over 40, do the math and stop comparing the two. Thats the only propaganda here.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:37 PM

Tampa, Scranton, and San Jose are like Buffalo current day? Youre clearly lost
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 08:41 PM

You still havent answered my questions either Nicky, if you go back a few posts you will see what they were.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 10:56 PM

Here is a post from Hollander on a different thread pertaining to the Violi's

Contraband Tobacco: Part of the profits went to the Violi clan

if they are part of Buffalo's Canadian crew they seem to be very active

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/j...s-profits-serait-allee-au-clan-violi.php
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 03/31/18 11:17 PM

My theory is that Buffalo was probably ready to flat line like some other families.
And the L.E. wrote them off

Not realizing that :

1) They were much much bigger and stronger in their day then say a C.A. family.
2) Under estimating the potential in the Canada crew. To possibly step up and lead.

Even with them taking a HUGE hit going down from say 100 active guys to 30
They still can be viable at 30.

With the smaller families at their height they were at 40-50 so now they only have 0-5 members left so other families came in and they became like a crew of a bigger family.

I also think it possible they were lacking leadership after Todaro retired.

I also think that maybe the leadership emerged from the Canada crew.

Maybe they revived the family however, the power has shifted to Canada

Maybe until Canada stepped up the remnants were working with other families
however, that has now changed.

So that is my theory
It is speculation

However, it would make both Nicky and Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel Correct.

1) Nicky was right that there has not been anything verified in the news you cannot deny that,
2) Nicky was right that L.E. and other sources declared them dead.

3) Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel that are from the area are telling the truth about what they are seeing and hearing basically LCN guys doing LCN things regularly

4) The new indictment and arrests point to possibly a re-emergence of the family.

Again, not what they were at their height in membership and power also not completely dead, appears they are active and rebuilding at the moment.

What do you say guys
???????
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 12:53 AM

I think its exactly the most accurate speculation possible. Well said.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 01:01 AM

Although, the Feds have contrasting stories they leaked that say Falzone was in fact the leader of the family for 10 years and even during those ten years there was 25-40 members with possibly 2-3 captains that could each easily have had 5-10 associates. I also think Todaro still had boss power over Falzone up until his death even though he was said to be retired, Im not buying it. He was LCN to the end.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
My theory is that Buffalo was probably ready to flat line like some other families.
And the L.E. wrote them off

Not realizing that :

1) They were much much bigger and stronger in their day then say a C.A. family.
2) Under estimating the potential in the Canada crew. To possibly step up and lead.

Even with them taking a HUGE hit going down from say 100 active guys to 30
They still can be viable at 30.

With the smaller families at their height they were at 40-50 so now they only have 0-5 members left so other families came in and they became like a crew of a bigger family.

I also think it possible they were lacking leadership after Todaro retired.

I also think that maybe the leadership emerged from the Canada crew.

Maybe they revived the family however, the power has shifted to Canada

Maybe until Canada stepped up the remnants were working with other families
however, that has now changed.

So that is my theory
It is speculation

However, it would make both Nicky and Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel Correct.

1) Nicky was right that there has not been anything verified in the news you cannot deny that,
2) Nicky was right that L.E. and other sources declared them dead.

3) Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel that are from the area are telling the truth about what they are seeing and hearing basically LCN guys doing LCN things regularly

4) The new indictment and arrests point to possibly a re-emergence of the family.

Again, not what they were at their height in membership and power also not completely dead, appears they are active and rebuilding at the moment.

What do you say guys
???????



I thin this is a very good possibility. Most of what I was thinking but unable to succinctly say. One thing I’m sure of, Family isn’t dead, but the power could have definitely shifted to Canada factions.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 01:25 AM

@ Nickle City, dont say that, you know who is reading!
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nickle City, dont say that, you know who is reading!

LOl😂 😆
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 02:43 AM

Having crews on both sides of the boarder is HUGE..

That pipeline is a racket unto itself

What other family has crews on both sides?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 02:52 AM

Bonanno does/did with Rizzutos...supposedly Detroit has a Windsor crew
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
In 2006, you claim that they have a confusing and strange structure, what does this mean and what is your source?


What I mean by this is that they had a boss, underboss, a consigliere, and four capos presiding over a crew of just 16 soldiers.
"Simple arithmetic will tell you that it amounts to one “management” type for every 2.28 “workers,” a difficult if not unworkable business model. Today some – like Sonny – have passed on, and others – like Frank “Butchie Bifocals” BiFulco – have been in prison for a long time." - http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2012/Sep18/Hudson.html
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Three people alone on this single thread believe it without any of my evidence, its not propaganda.

All three people have offered different stories.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Tampa and Buffalo are apples and oranges as much as you try and bundle the two. Its a ridiculous effort to do so, but keep trying to make the point.

[/quote]

Tampa and Buffalo aren't apples and oranges. Both families were once incredibly powerful (the control the Trafficantes had over Cuba is incredible), and both families died out in the early 2000s by most law enforcement accounts. Last official bust for Trafficantes is 2000 whilst Buffalos was 2003. How are they apples and oranges?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
When the Feds say he was the leader from 06-16 of the family what was he the leader of Nicky?

He was the boss of a defunct family. Just like Billy D'Elia was. Just like Vincent LoScalzo is. Just like how Joseph Gagliano was a member of a defunct family. Do I need to run you through the tree concept again?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Tampa has two surviving members of a family while Buffalo has over 40, do the math and stop comparing the two. Thats the only propaganda here.


Tampa has more than 2 surviving members, but I don't fault you for saying that since I only named two.

By the way, if you can name me "over 40" confirmed members of the Buffalo crime family, I'll concede the family is most likely still active. Bonus points if there are 10 under 50.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Here is a post from Hollander on a different thread pertaining to the Violi's

Contraband Tobacco: Part of the profits went to the Violi clan

if they are part of Buffalo's Canadian crew they seem to be very active

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/j...s-profits-serait-allee-au-clan-violi.php





Good article Bensonhurst. Thanks for posting.

The Violis are quite a big name in Canada. The fact that their outfit hasn't been linked with the Todaro crime family speaks waves about any theorized connection.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
My theory is that Buffalo was probably ready to flat line like some other families.
And the L.E. wrote them off

Not realizing that :

1) They were much much bigger and stronger in their day then say a C.A. family.
2) Under estimating the potential in the Canada crew. To possibly step up and lead.

Even with them taking a HUGE hit going down from say 100 active guys to 30
They still can be viable at 30.

With the smaller families at their height they were at 40-50 so now they only have 0-5 members left so other families came in and they became like a crew of a bigger family.

I also think it possible they were lacking leadership after Todaro retired.

I also think that maybe the leadership emerged from the Canada crew.

Maybe they revived the family however, the power has shifted to Canada

Maybe until Canada stepped up the remnants were working with other families
however, that has now changed.

So that is my theory
It is speculation

However, it would make both Nicky and Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel Correct.

1) Nicky was right that there has not been anything verified in the news you cannot deny that,
2) Nicky was right that L.E. and other sources declared them dead.

3) Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel that are from the area are telling the truth about what they are seeing and hearing basically LCN guys doing LCN things regularly

4) The new indictment and arrests point to possibly a re-emergence of the family.

Again, not what they were at their height in membership and power also not completely dead, appears they are active and rebuilding at the moment.

What do you say guys
???????






Bensonhurst you've made a big error in your theory. I'm disappointed that Rooster didn't mention it, just shows how selective he is.
You mentioned that "Even with taking taking a HUGE hit going down from say 100 active guys to 30
They still can be viable at 30."
"With the smaller families at their height they were at 40-50 so now they only have 0-5 members left so other families came in and they became like a crew of a bigger family."

Here's the thing. By 1989, Buffalo was confirmed to have 45 members. So, by your own logic, Buffalo is in the league of the other smaller families.

That's why that theory doesn't work. Believe me, I don't have any problems with you having speculation, but that theory isn't possible because Buffalo had 45 members by 1989. And that was before the family began to feel the effects of law enforcement strain.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Although, the Feds have contrasting stories they leaked that say Falzone was in fact the leader of the family for 10 years and even during those ten years there was 25-40 members with possibly 2-3 captains that could each easily have had 5-10 associates. I also think Todaro still had boss power over Falzone up until his death even though he was said to be retired, Im not buying it. He was LCN to the end.


Let me know if I want you to explain the fact that someone can be the boss of a defunct family again.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nickle City, dont say that, you know who is reading!

LOl😂 😆


If people honestly take Rooster/Nickle over feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, mob experts, and news reporters, than I don't know what to say. And somehow I'm "gullible" for believing the feds over Rooster, who hadn't heard the term Todaro crime family before 2017.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You still havent answered my questions either Nicky, if you go back a few posts you will see what they were.


Alright I'm on it, Rooster. But you have to answer the questions I have been asking throughout this thread. Deal?
Here are some questions from you I missed:
""So he took over a Crime Family that the Feds claim was defunct years earlier? And then the Feds say he took over a beleaguered crime family years later?..and now youre assuming he wasnt able to stabilize and increase membership like a Joe Ligambi did?""
I don't know if the feds ever confirmed the family was defunct before 2017. By 2012, the family's activity was pretty much unknown, but a structure was theorized.

""So then you must think that the Washington Post is lying, correct?""
Nope.

""Why does the Reporter say that FEDS say he took over in 2006 and do you believe that the Washington Post is lying?""
I think 2006 was the final year the feds confirmed the family was active. That was when they posted that confusing chart.

""What constitutes ghosting on this forum Nicky? Is it you? Im just asking so we all know"" - When you are still reading through all the posts (like you admitted to doing previously) but aren't replying.

""@ Nicky, also please, for the sake of all of us on this forum, explain who defines that there can actually be a Boss of a defunct family? Meaning who told you that Loscalzo (or Delia) is the Boss of the now defunct Tampa family and not the ex boss of the defunct family? Who has told you that this is the correct terminology?""
Answered this one dozens of times. On the subject of who tells me the correct terminology, I take the D'Elia thing. He was indicted and called the boss of the Scranton family, even though that family was defunct.
And does the terminology really matter? That's what I want to know.

""@ Nicky, do you believe that the Tampa Family went defunct in 2006-07 or earlier?""
Probably between 2002-2005.

""@ Nicky, how do you know that Todaro is at La Nova every day full time?""
Due to the size of his company, it's hard to believe he's only a part-time CEO. He has been behind various decisions that the company made, and has spoken for the company a lot. That doesn't imply part-time. Also, he challenged news reporters to come and see what he was up to, and see for themselves that he was at his company "7 days a week."
You could argue that everyone else is making decisions for him, and he is just being handed a speech to recite to press. But that seems like a stretch.




Here are my questions you haven't answered:
""By the way Rooster, why do you think the Musitanos whacked Papalia and his top lieutenant? For fun? Or to take over their rackets and interests?"" I asked that one twice.

""So your knowledge is from knowing certain people, huh? That's great and all, but when I claimed to have spoken to a top LE official, you accused me of lying. Where's the double standard Rooster? Because apparently I'm supposed to accept that you've been talking to all these cops off the record, but when I claim to have talked to a cop I'm a liar?""

What sort of discrepancies were in the article here (http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html) that you claim has inaccuracies?

Why do you hang on to the Vincent LoScalzo thing so much? Does that help your argument in any way?

Why was Joe Todaro Jr. a "close confidant" of a teenager who was supposedly a gang member and union leader as well?

What was the 2012 bust of the Todaro crime family you mentioned?

How does Frank Falzone's law firm specializing in debt collection constitute "mob-like" tactics?

""Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.""

"""Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...""""

""""Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?""""

"""You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY. """"

""""Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?""""

What in this article: https://www.redstate.com/diary/labo...rs-local-91-cant-seem-to-shake-its-past/ - indicates any sort of (current) mob activity?

Yes, Western New York is quite corrupt. But ""are they corrupt enough to the point where there can be an entire family under their nose and nobody knows about it? Or better yet, they actively deny it? I dont think that scale of corruption takes place anywhere in America anymore, at least not for the mafia."" That was a question I asked earlier.

Regarding the Ciminelli bust: "Does every construction scam have to do with the Mafia? No, and there is no evidence that this Ciminelli one did. This was a plain and simple scam. What would the mob's role in this be? And don't you think that if there was a mob angle to this then prosecutors, feds and news reporters would lap it up?""

Regarding the article you posted in which the alleged Rochester boss denied being a mob boss: ""You think we can ring up Frank Cali and he'll say he's the boss of the Gambino mob?""

Is there any evidence that Cohen was a Buffalo crime family associate, and is there any evidence he worked with anyone other than the Luccheses.

"""Seriously, when did the credibility of my info "fall apart?" When did the credibility of the number of high-ranking LE guys, journalists, prosecutors and mob experts "fall apart." It hasn't. So explain to me how your comment there makes sense."""

"""How many of the guys that Sonny linked under are 65?
And, by the way, what happened to the dozens of members and associates from other families like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, etc.???? Or are your drunk city cops telling you that they are active as well?""""


New questions:
When the feds say Falzone took over in 2006 or whatever, why are you so quick to jump on that? You've been discrediting the feds for this entire thread. Why do you hang on their word once they suit your agenda?
By the way, whatever the feds say pre-2017 doesn't mean anything regarding the current day situation. The feds confirmed the family was dead last year. Look at this FBI article:
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/mafia-family-tree.pdf/view
While the Mafia–also known as La Cosa Nostra--may no longer possess the robust national presence and influence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New. England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit.
As well as this, here's another FBI article: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/organized-crime
"The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Luchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes. Although the LCN has its roots in Italian organized crime, it has been a separate organization for many years. Today it cooperates in various criminal activities with different criminal groups that are headquartered in Italy."
Now, don't be fooled when it mentions Buffalo later on in the page. "Labor law violations occur primarily in large cities with both a strong industrial base and strong labor unions, like New York, Buffalo, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia." That isn't proof that the Buffalo Mafia is still active, otherwise that would mean the Cleveland Mafia is still active (which it definitely isn't.)

""Fading is not defunct and the Feds clearly have contrasting thoughts"" - Where are the contrasting thoughts?
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 06:29 AM

BensonHURST, the 100 members started to die out, split or transferred to another family. Take Pittston, Pa we know that family was controlled by Magaddino until the late 1950's. 1950's was a big era for the crime families as they started to expand their crime families. We know that once John passed away, Scranton started to operate independent from Buffalo. Then you have Rochester, and later the 1970 big split. These members were made in Buffalo, but there were some that questioned Magaddino's leadership. Anthony, a capo from Buffalo moved to California, to both keep a close eye on a teamster member and to get away from the fueds in the Buffalo crime family.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 11:55 AM

There he is lol. Great job Nicky, thanks for the novel that repeats everything youve been trying to convince us of. When does the epilogue come out when the 2017 bust proves youre wrong?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 12:07 PM

One thing I am interested in is who the other remaining Tampa members are, Loscalzo, Albano, Raffa and who else?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[quote=The_Rooster]Three people alone on this single thread believe it without any of my evidence, its not propaganda.

All three people have offered different stories.

It is a secret organization , of course we will have different stories. We wa h know bits and pieces, some right and some wrong. There are different stories about what has and is taking place int the big families too. My whole purpose is to get you to admit you don’t know the whole story either. Therefor you can’t rule out Buffalo being active to some degree.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
My theory is that Buffalo was probably ready to flat line like some other families.
And the L.E. wrote them off

Not realizing that :

1) They were much much bigger and stronger in their day then say a C.A. family.
2) Under estimating the potential in the Canada crew. To possibly step up and lead.

Even with them taking a HUGE hit going down from say 100 active guys to 30
They still can be viable at 30.

With the smaller families at their height they were at 40-50 so now they only have 0-5 members left so other families came in and they became like a crew of a bigger family.

I also think it possible they were lacking leadership after Todaro retired.

I also think that maybe the leadership emerged from the Canada crew.

Maybe they revived the family however, the power has shifted to Canada

Maybe until Canada stepped up the remnants were working with other families
however, that has now changed.

So that is my theory
It is speculation

However, it would make both Nicky and Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel Correct.

1) Nicky was right that there has not been anything verified in the news you cannot deny that,
2) Nicky was right that L.E. and other sources declared them dead.

3) Rooster, Giacomo and Nickel that are from the area are telling the truth about what they are seeing and hearing basically LCN guys doing LCN things regularly

4) The new indictment and arrests point to possibly a re-emergence of the family.

Again, not what they were at their height in membership and power also not completely dead, appears they are active and rebuilding at the moment.

What do you say guys
???????






Bensonhurst you've made a big error in your theory. I'm disappointed that Rooster didn't mention it, just shows how selective he is.
You mentioned that "Even with taking taking a HUGE hit going down from say 100 active guys to 30
They still can be viable at 30."
"With the smaller families at their height they were at 40-50 so now they only have 0-5 members left so other families came in and they became like a crew of a bigger family."

Here's the thing. By 1989, Buffalo was confirmed to have 45 members. So, by your own logic, Buffalo is in the league of the other smaller families.

That's why that theory doesn't work. Believe me, I don't have any problems with you having speculation, but that theory isn't possible because Buffalo had 45 members by 1989. And that was before the family began to feel the effects of law enforcement strain.


45 known or confirmed members...Most of the time there are more made men than L.E. knows. One just has to look to the 5 big families to understand this is true.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:51 PM

Canadian Newspaers has been using the term Todaro Crime Family at least by 2016.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Canadian Newspaers has been using the term Todaro Crime Family at least by 2016.


Sorry I misspoke...it seams Canadian papers use Todaro Crime Family as a designation for Buffalo, even indication that the Musitano Crime family had longstanding ties to the Todaro Crime Family. I would say there has to be a reason they use this designation over Maggadino Crime Family, or Buffalo Crime Gamily.

Quote

The Musitano family also at one time had strong links to the Todaro Crime Family in Buffalo.


Look at this Toronto Sun article: Toronto Sun links Musitano Crime Family to Todaro Crime Family
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 06:41 PM

Which means they were connected after the murder of Papalia
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
One thing I am interested in is who the other remaining Tampa members are, Loscalzo, Albano, Raffa and who else?

Raffa committed suicide in 2000. So not him.
Turns out Frank Albano might be dead too. If alive today he'd be 78.

Antonio Amorelli is still alive.
Michael Napoli is probably the youngest member at 66 in Tampa. Miami straightened out a handful of young guys in the 90s like John Mamone and maybe Spitaleri.
There are probably around 5-to-10 surviving members of the Trafficante crime family. The charts on this site: http://mafiamembershipcharts.blogspot.co.nz/search/label/Tampa are not quite accurate, because they have some associates listed as soldiers, but it's a good start.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
There he is lol. Great job Nicky, thanks for the novel that repeats everything youve been trying to convince us of. When does the epilogue come out when the 2017 bust proves youre wrong?

You gonna answer my questions or no?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 09:18 PM

How do you know they are just associates? and how do you know that they made a bunch of guys in Miami? I would love to see those articles.

And why isnt there a Buffalo chart from this guys website?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 09:19 PM

All your questions have been answered by the 3 of us several times over.

Btw, Happy Easter
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 09:19 PM

Also, do you know what kind of car Loscalzo drives?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 10:34 PM

Another Canadian paper that directly links recent arrests to the Buffalo Crime Family that was headed by the late Joe Todaro.

From Metro News Canada Toronto Edition:

Quote

Published on Nov 09 2017
Staff
TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE
MILTON—The RCMP and FBI have made a string of arrests involving fentanyl trafficking by a long-established Hamilton crime group and the Gambino organized family of New York.
Among those arrested are members of the crime networks established by the late Paolo Violi and his father-in-law, the late Giacomo Luppino.

The names of the accused are expected to be announced later today.

The arrests were driven by the work of at least one “wise guy” – or mob member – who turned informer, a source close to the investigation said.

Violi was slain in 1978 in Montreal by men connected to the rival crime family of Nick Rizzuto and his son, Vito.

The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.

The Gambino crime family was once considered the most powerful Mafia family in New York.

In the early 1960s, Giacomo Luppino was considered by Toronto police to be one of the founders of the local governing body of the 'Ndrangheta Mafia group, called La Camera di Controllo or the Crimini.


Can’t get a clearer connection to the Buffalo Crime Family than this! Here is the link: Canadian Arrests Linked to Buffalo Crime Family
Posted By: mike89

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 10:42 PM

Fuck me is this thread still going
Posted By: mike89

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 10:43 PM

So.....The Bufalino's haha
Posted By: mike89

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 10:47 PM

Its like waking up in the morning going downstairs and see your friends still drinking and getting high......time for you guys to go home!
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 11:07 PM

Agreed Mike, we need counseling
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 11:23 PM

@ Nickel, there it is....but wait, wait for it, wait, a little longer, here he comes......be ready....any minute now.....
Posted By: mike89

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 11:31 PM

i mean fair play, debate all you want it's just funny, so much passion haha
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 11:39 PM

Yup, im just about done, but I think I know someone who isnt, and hes originally from the Gulf Coast
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/01/18 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
@ Nickel, there it is....but wait, wait for it, wait, a little longer, here he comes......be ready....any minute now.....

😂 😂... I am ready and waiting!
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by mike89
So.....The Bufalino's haha


Yeah, how did a Buffalino thread end up being all about the Buffalo Crime Family?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 12:55 AM

Also there was an article I found I didn't copy
I have to try to find again

One of the Violo's charges is being a member of a criminal organization
I believe that would be the TODARO Family

If they were operating independently why would they be charged with that
Or why wouldn't they say a member of a defunct LCN family
Or former member
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 12:56 AM

Lol I read that and thought that last week..
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 01:00 AM

One of the earlier posts i wrote was to merge this into the Buffalo thread that was from 2 years ago
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 01:01 AM

Lol Mikey

I have been trying to negotiate a resolution with the guys for about a week
To whereas they are both rigjht....

I think we may need a sit down to resolve this.

Rooster and his people
And Nicky and his people

Put this to rest the old school way
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 01:02 AM

Bensonhurst, I think you are finally starting to fully commit to the fact they are active and viable. Welcome to reality, nice to have you.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 01:02 AM

Im in, Ill bring Frank
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Lol Mikey

I have been trying to negotiate a resolution with the guys for about a week
To whereas they are both rigjht....

I think we may need a sit down to resolve this.

Rooster and his people
And Nicky and his people

Put this to rest the old school way


I’ll only agree to a sit down if you are the one brokering the deal. 😂 😂
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Yup, im just about done, but I think I know someone who isnt, and hes originally from the Gulf Coast


Remind me who started this argument?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 06:08 AM

By the way Rooster, why did you hassle me to answer your questions that I missed, but now you refuse to answer the same questions I've been asking throughout the thread?

And by the way, the offer is still open. If Rooster can name "over 40" confirmed members of the Buffalo mob (as he claims they have) then I will concede that I'm wrong. Rooster, I don't expect a response from you since you're very, very selective about replying to me, but what do you say to this offer ^. In fact, Rooster, if you even give me a source which says Buffalo present-day (or within the last decade) has 40+ members, I will concede I'm wrong.

And pmac, you know how you said "the feds basically said Violi is underboss" or something along those lines? Well, if you can show me where the feds said Violi is the underboss of the Buffalo mob (which I'm assuming is what you're referring to), I'll concede that I'm wrong and that Buffalo is still an active crime family.

And Rooster, if you can prove that the Ciminelli bust is, in any way, connected to the Buffalo crime family, then I will concede I'm wrong. And no, I don't mean "Well Ciminelli used to be a union guy on the take), I mean actual, tangible proof that the Mafia was involved, in any way, shape or form, in the illegal activities that Ciminelli was busted for.

And Rooster, if you can give me any tangible proof that Brian Cohen was not working with the Luccheses, but was actually a Buffalo/Todaro crime family associate during this period, I'll concede that I'm wrong.

And, lastly, if you would at least just answer my questions, that would really, really, really go a long way for your credibility. Because your argument of "Oh well, this forum isn't my life so I sometimes miss your posts" only goes so far. It's beyond 'missing a couple questions here and there.' You're straight-up ignoring certain questions that are fundamental to your narrative.
Posted By: mike89

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 10:37 AM

If i'm being honest I actually believe Rooster haha.......although the counter arguments have been well thought out and articulated.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 11:09 AM

If you cant connect the dots then someone else has to help you at this point. Im not a kindergarten teacher.

@ mike89, Thanks and welcome to the world of logic and reality, nice to have you aboard.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 11:15 AM

All questions have been answered by me, Giacomi, or Nickle. No one is dodging questions, you just dont like the answers youre getting because they dont fit your narrative.

Is there holes in street stories? Absolutely. But the consensus that Ive gotten is overwhelming. The Feds exaggerate and lie and journalists exaggerate. They are wrong, its just the way it is. And the bust last year, if you believe me on nothing else proves that.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by mike89
If i'm being honest I actually believe Rooster haha.......although the counter arguments have been well thought out and articulated.


Not trying to argue with you here, I'm genuinely curious. What made you decide to believe Rooster?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
All questions have been answered by me, Giacomi, or Nickle. No one is dodging questions, you just dont like the answers youre getting because they dont fit your narrative.


On the previous page are questions fundamental to your story that you didn't answer. If you have answered them, show me where.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 12:02 PM

Give it up Nicky, time to focus on Loscalzo and Albano. Start a new thread. Theres more to life than Buffalo.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 12:02 PM

Let me just say this again: Rooster, if you can name the "over 40" confirmed members you were talking about, I'll concede I'm wrong. If you can tie the Cohen and Ciminelli busts to the Buffalo mob, I'll concede I'm wrong. If you can show me where the feds have confirmed the Buffalo mob is still active, I'll concede I'm wrong. If you answer the questions I outlined to you on the previous page, I'll concede you've got a point.

You know what, I'll go even easier on you. If you can name even 30 confirmed members of the Buffalo Mob (your figure was 'over 40'), I'll concede I'm wrong.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 12:47 PM

Just look at the Gangsters Inc. membership chart
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 12:58 PM

Heres the difference, at this stage in the game, Ive already given you my evidence. I already believe what I believe and as do now 4 other posters, theres nothing left. You gave it a valid run and articulated it well, but its just the end of the road like Boyz to Men sang in the 90s
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Just look at the Gangsters Inc. membership chart

Link?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Heres the difference, at this stage in the game, Ive already given you my evidence. I already believe what I believe and as do now 4 other posters, theres nothing left. You gave it a valid run and articulated it well, but its just the end of the road like Boyz to Men sang in the 90s


Well I suppose so.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by mike89
So.....The Bufalino's haha


If Buffalo is, then the Bufalino family definitely is.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by mike89
So.....The Bufalino's haha


If Buffalo is, then the Bufalino family definitely is.


Same with Tampa, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and Seattle.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 10:01 PM

Hang it up Nicky. The debate is over, you can go home now.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 10:02 PM

Seattle is definitely still active. You should start a thread
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/02/18 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Seattle is definitely still active. You should start a thread

lol
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 05:41 AM

38 active guys Nicky, according to your guy you used to verify Tampa numbers

http://mafiamembershipcharts.blogspot.com/2015/02/buffalo-family-membership-chart-1980_13.html?m=1
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
One thing I am interested in is who the other remaining Tampa members are, Loscalzo, Albano, Raffa and who else?

Raffa committed suicide in 2000. So not him.
Turns out Frank Albano might be dead too. If alive today he'd be 78.

Antonio Amorelli is still alive.
Michael Napoli is probably the youngest member at 66 in Tampa. Miami straightened out a handful of young guys in the 90s like John Mamone and maybe Spitaleri.
There are probably around 5-to-10 surviving members of the Trafficante crime family. The charts on this site: http://mafiamembershipcharts.blogspot.co.nz/search/label/Tampa are not quite accurate, because they have some associates listed as soldiers, but it's a good start.


Read what I said here dumbass.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 05:45 AM

And it doesnt include the Violis, Sansaneses, Carfigna, the Todaros, Peter Cap Jr., and any other of the 100 associates
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 05:47 AM

Just going by your guy, theres your chart from the source you used for Tampa. Still bitter I see with the name calling. Proves your lack of intelligence and logic, but I completely understand.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 05:50 AM

We all know, at least the smart ones, that associates can be considered part of a familys structure and make it viable even though they may not be made. Keep up Nicky, I know its not easy to add all this up.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 05:51 AM

And how exactly do you know his chart for Tampa is not quite accurate?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 05:59 AM

It's not an accurate website but it's a good start. What part of that don't you understand?

Google their names. Cross-check the facts. On that site they label Italian associates as soldiers. Fred Scarola, Julius Chiusano, etc. all perfect examples of CONFIRMED associates that Bill Weathers listed as soldiers.


Read my posts properly before you comment bullshit. I didn't use Bill Weathers site to "verify" anything. I don't know why there's a discussion here. You've got no evidence the family is active. Absolutely zero. But people on this forum love to assume a family can't just die. They love to say "well the feds, DAs, fed prosecutors, mob experts, journalists all could be wrong because they all have agendas here." Whatever floats your boat.


This forum's point of view:
Police are actively conducting surveillance and have active investigations on the Buffalo mob. But, due to some conceited conspiracy, they have colluded with journalists and prosecutors to actively deny it. Actively deny that the family has a structure, hierarchy, chain-of-command. Who knows why. In fact, there is another conspiracy on this forum that the feds are working WITH the Buffalo mob in unions. Wow. Despite this, apparently the community in Buffalo actually knows that the Mafia exists. Too bad they haven't said anything. Everyone is Buffalo is keeping their mouths shut. Including journalists. Apart from Rooster, that is.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 06:11 AM

Lol yea yea yea.

Its not accurate but its a good start, thats a contradiction in itself.

It just kills you inside doesnt it? Its over, you can keep attacking mine, Giacomos, and Nickles credibility all you want but at the end of the day we know more than any of your precious, yet conflicting and contrasting articles can give.

You know nothing about Tampa and less than nothing about Buffalo.

Only the dumb dont know when its time to accept losing, but in the meantime you insult every reader on here as if they have been hypnotized into believing a fantasy - its called logic and posters who cant and wouldnt simply have the information we have and gain nothing if we were making it up.

Now Nicky, one last time, the debate is over, you can go home now.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 06:11 AM

Google their names lol....thats all you have is Google
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Lol yea yea yea.

Its not accurate but its a good start, thats a contradiction in itself.

No it's not. How is that a contradiction? It's a good start. But it's not entirely accurate. It's not rocket science, moron.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

It just kills you inside doesnt it? Its over, you can keep attacking mine, Giacomos, and Nickles credibility all you want but at the end of the day we know more than any of your precious, yet conflicting and contrasting articles can give.

The problem with that argument is... how and why should anyone believe you have inside knowledge. None of us know anything about you other than the 11 characters that make up your name. It's all well and good to say "we know more than any of your articles" but why should we just take what you say and role with it?

Rooster, give me one good reason why we should believe you over the feds. One good reason.
By the way, you and Giacomo have conflicting stories so clearly one of you is wrong. But you'd never say that because you're just thankful that he admits Buffalo is active at all.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You know nothing about Tampa and less than nothing about Buffalo.

You didn't know the Buffalo mob was called the Todaro crime family BEFORE 2017. You thought it was a new term. What does that say about your Buffalo knowledge.
And you've already proven you don't know jack shit about Tampa. That's not even a criticism, I just don't know why you think you're qualified to assess what I know and don't know about Tampa.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Only the dumb dont know when its time to accept losing, but in the meantime you insult every reader on here as if they have been hypnotized into believing a fantasy - its called logic and posters who cant and wouldnt simply have the information we have and gain nothing if we were making it up.

Logic?
You still haven't answered the questions I've asked. I'll post them again since you're so obviously avoiding them. These are questions that are FUNDAMENTAL to your story.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster


Now Nicky, one last time, the debate is over, you can go home now.



Answer my questions:

Here are my questions you haven't answered:
""By the way Rooster, why do you think the Musitanos whacked Papalia and his top lieutenant? For fun? Or to take over their rackets and interests?"" I asked that one twice.

""So your knowledge is from knowing certain people, huh? That's great and all, but when I claimed to have spoken to a top LE official, you accused me of lying. Where's the double standard Rooster? Because apparently I'm supposed to accept that you've been talking to all these cops off the record, but when I claim to have talked to a cop I'm a liar?""

What sort of discrepancies were in the article here (http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html) that you claim has inaccuracies?

Why do you hang on to the Vincent LoScalzo thing so much? Does that help your argument in any way?

Why was Joe Todaro Jr. a "close confidant" of a teenager who was supposedly a gang member and union leader as well?

What was the 2012 bust of the Todaro crime family you mentioned?

How does Frank Falzone's law firm specializing in debt collection constitute "mob-like" tactics?

""Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.""

"""Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...""""

""""Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?""""

"""You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY. """"

""""Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?""""

What in this article: https://www.redstate.com/diary/labo...rs-local-91-cant-seem-to-shake-its-past/ - indicates any sort of (current) mob activity?

Yes, Western New York is quite corrupt. But ""are they corrupt enough to the point where there can be an entire family under their nose and nobody knows about it? Or better yet, they actively deny it? I dont think that scale of corruption takes place anywhere in America anymore, at least not for the mafia."" That was a question I asked earlier.

Regarding the Ciminelli bust: "Does every construction scam have to do with the Mafia? No, and there is no evidence that this Ciminelli one did. This was a plain and simple scam. What would the mob's role in this be? And don't you think that if there was a mob angle to this then prosecutors, feds and news reporters would lap it up?""

Regarding the article you posted in which the alleged Rochester boss denied being a mob boss: ""You think we can ring up Frank Cali and he'll say he's the boss of the Gambino mob?""

Is there any evidence that Cohen was a Buffalo crime family associate, and is there any evidence he worked with anyone other than the Luccheses.

"""Seriously, when did the credibility of my info "fall apart?" When did the credibility of the number of high-ranking LE guys, journalists, prosecutors and mob experts "fall apart." It hasn't. So explain to me how your comment there makes sense."""

"""How many of the guys that Sonny linked under are 65?
And, by the way, what happened to the dozens of members and associates from other families like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, etc.???? Or are your drunk city cops telling you that they are active as well?""""


New questions:
When the feds say Falzone took over in 2006 or whatever, why are you so quick to jump on that? You've been discrediting the feds for this entire thread. Why do you hang on their word once they suit your agenda?
By the way, whatever the feds say pre-2017 doesn't mean anything regarding the current day situation. The feds confirmed the family was dead last year. Look at this FBI article:
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/mafia-family-tree.pdf/view
While the Mafia–also known as La Cosa Nostra--may no longer possess the robust national presence and influence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New. England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit.
As well as this, here's another FBI article: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/organized-crime
"The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Luchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes. Although the LCN has its roots in Italian organized crime, it has been a separate organization for many years. Today it cooperates in various criminal activities with different criminal groups that are headquartered in Italy."
Now, don't be fooled when it mentions Buffalo later on in the page. "Labor law violations occur primarily in large cities with both a strong industrial base and strong labor unions, like New York, Buffalo, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia." That isn't proof that the Buffalo Mafia is still active, otherwise that would mean the Cleveland Mafia is still active (which it definitely isn't.)

""Fading is not defunct and the Feds clearly have contrasting thoughts"" - Where are the contrasting thoughts?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Just going by your guy, theres your chart from the source you used for Tampa. Still bitter I see with the name calling. Proves your lack of intelligence and logic, but I completely understand.


Hypocracy..........
Your FIRST, and I mean FIRST comment on this thread was calling me delusional. You were very quick afterward to call me "full of crap." Believe me, I was pretty respectful at the beginning compared to you.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Google their names lol....thats all you have is Google


Actually I have two dozen Buffalo beat cops on my payroll. And you can't accuse me of lying, because your entire argument is based around us believing that you talk to beat cops in bars and they tell you the entire hierarchy and rackets of Buffalo.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
And how exactly do you know his chart for Tampa is not quite accurate?


Because he has associates listed as soldiers. That's why.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
We all know, at least the smart ones, that associates can be considered part of a familys structure and make it viable even though they may not be made. Keep up Nicky, I know its not easy to add all this up.


I know they can, Rooster. I never argued that. But Bill Weathers blog specifically lists known associates as SOLDIERS. Is that rocket science? Too hard for you to figure out?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/03/18 08:03 AM

Answer my questions Rooster and we can consider this argument over. I have listed them. I'm going to call it now: You'll say "I've answered all your questions" and I'll ask you where, and you won't reply because you know that you haven't. I'm hoping you'll prove me wrong Rooster.
Posted By: mike89

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 05:35 PM

I believe Rooster because he lives there, when the CIA are trying to hit terrorists with drone strikes, they think they know what they know, but it's it's all about getting intel on the ground which clinches the deal, that means more than anything else I just don't think he's lying.....and if he is.....he needs to get himself a girl.
Posted By: furio_from_naples

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
38 active guys Nicky, according to your guy you used to verify Tampa numbers

http://mafiamembershipcharts.blogspot.com/2015/02/buffalo-family-membership-chart-1980_13.html?m=1


Don't made my same mistake Rooster,some of the name on the list are retired or associate,and the canadian guys should formed a indipendent family in Canada.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 06:34 PM

Thanks Mike. No lies here, I know a lot more tidbits that I dont feel comfortable writing, one of the reason I generalize on certain answers when questions.

I have several girls
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 06:35 PM

Furio, I was just placating Nicky. I know the charts off. And the Canadians havent formed their own family and wont for a while.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 06:37 PM

Nicky, if youd like to ask one question one post at a time I will, even though I feel Im just regurgitating things me, Giacomo, and Nickle have already said.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nicky, if youd like to ask one question one post at a time I will, even though I feel Im just regurgitating things me, Giacomo, and Nickle have already said.


Alright here's the most important question I've had:
"""Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...""""
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:07 PM

They are either misinformed or have bad intel, or possibly want the designation to go away because they want funding to stay in different departments. Everyone has their own agenda, law enforcement is no different, active or retired.

Keeping tabs and full blown investigations are two different things, and again, there has been recent cases, like last years. Keeping tabs does not mean they have enough to build RICO cases but I believe members from Buffalo(faction) will be in the headlines again for crimes probably more of a chance at Enterprise Corruption than RICO.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:09 PM

It hasnt been 15 years, there was a bust last year. We cant move forward on other questions if you refuse to acknowledge that there are people that believe in law enforcement and journalism that believe it is the Buffalo Crime Family...and yes, you know nothing about Buffalo
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nicky, if youd like to ask one question one post at a time I will, even though I feel Im just regurgitating things me, Giacomo, and Nickle have already said.


Alright here's the most important question I've had:
"""Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...""""


Nicky, that is a good question. Here is my best answer... but bear in mind it is dated. I have a friend that served on the NY State OC Taskforce. He surveilled LIUNA Local '91 in Niagara county on a regular basis. When the indictments came for '91 there was no mention of a mafia connection in the papers except that the were wannabes (remember the article I posted?).

From what he says, the State Police/DA couldn't prove a mafia connection for conviction, (even though there was) but they had enough impanel a Grand Jury in Nov. 2001 and get 13 indictments for running a criminal enterprise, racketeering, extortion, et al... against members of local 91. Eventually there were 17 indictments. They were able to convict Dominick Dellaccio Mark Congi, Michael Quaracini, Celest and all the others with the evidence they had. I believe Dellaccio's sentence finally came in 2006 after a lengthy appeals process. Here are a few of the related articles:

Initial Inditments

Dominick Dellaccio Sentencing in 2006

Local 91 Stranglehold

Congi's Sentencing

Mighty Quaracini Has Fallen

My friend that served on OC taskforce will readily say these guys were mobbed up. They just didn't have enough to prove their connection but had enough to convict them of wrongdoing in very LCN type crimes. Ron Fino talks about Quaracini in his book. Here is what he says:

Quote

The Love Canal was not in Local 210’ s jurisdiction and the laborers that performed the work on the project were members of Niagara Falls Laborers Local 91. The business manager for the local was Michael “Butch” Quarcini” who controlled his union with an iron fist. Quarcini allowed the use of non-union workers and made sure that the union laborers did not ruffle any feathers. Teamster’s Local 449 business agent was Victor DiFlavio, a physically tough guy who took his orders directly from Joseph Todaro Sr. who equally went along with the concept. Chuck Lobish, a Harry Williams employee, handled the trucking which was mostly non-union and the drivers were paid wages lower than the federal and state prevailing rates.t was always hard for me to figure out who Butch Quarcini answered to. I knew early on, when he first was elected, it was with the blessing of Magaddino’s son-in-law Jimmy LaDuca and Benny Nicolletti Sr. But later on he was not well liked by Roy Carlisi nor by Joe Todaro Sr. They always spoke about him being a loose cannon and never said anything nice about him. As a result of his father's relationship with Quarcini’s brother Salvatore, Danny Sansanese Jr. became quite close to Butch and together they would play the finest golf courses in this country. Still, Danny Jr. was only a soldier with limited power and after his father died he had to answer to his younger brother Victor’s orders. Victor Sansanese was well liked by Joey Pizza and climbed fast in the family hierarchy. Many of us considered him to be the new consigliere and not Leonard Falzone, as others have suspected. One time I asked Leonard about Butch and his reckless ways and he told me, “He answers, Ronnie, and is a good earner,


Michael (Butch) Quarcini died before he went to trial. This may be why they were unable to directly tie these indictments to LCN.... Another reason they were unlikely tied to the Buffalo Crime family is because the crime family did a good job of not letting people know everything about what was going on--as Fino indicates. Certain people answered to certain people and if you weren't in that loop or part of the administration, you didn't know.

In summary here are the bullet points

1. If LCN doesn't fully know... LE won't fully know and they won't be able to prove a connection in their investigations.
2. My friend in LE verifies a LCN connection--even thought he can't prove it for a court of law
3. Fino, indicates there is an LCN connection with local '91 even thought LE can't prove it.
4. '91 sentencing goes back to 2006 and indictments to 2002... but LE watching '91 for over 20 years before any indictments... It takes a long time-especially in Niagara County cause things are so corrupt here.

Tampa, like I said, "this is a good question." I think this is a reasonable, but not a perfect answer to the question you asked Rooster. I know my answer does not prove anything, but it should give pause to completely dismissing the idea that the Buffalo Mob is not organized and active.

And here is my question Tampa:
If the Canadian Papers indicate the Buffalo Mob is active -- one clearly states it. How can you totally dismiss the idea? Again here is a quote from Metro News Toronto Edition:

Quote

The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.


Here is the Link: Arrests Linked to Buffalo Crime Family


Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:21 PM

Butch is very wreckless, i have heard some stories. He is an earner too, even in 2018
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:22 PM

I read wrong, im talking about Bifulco
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:28 PM

Also, how many rats has Buffalo had?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:33 PM

You have 3 more questions Nicky
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You have 3 more questions Nicky


He has an answer to his question, but I only count 2 questions for him... Yours about rats and mine about the Canadian Paper directly implicating the Buffalo Crime Family. Am I missing one?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:47 PM

My question was actually an answer to his question.....his answer to yours will be a muddled on, that probably will say that the journalist got it wrong and what they meant to say is the members from the once Buffalo family who are
still alive were involved in the bust
Posted By: BillyBrizzi

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity

And here is my question Tampa:
If the Canadian Papers indicate the Buffalo Mob is active -- one clearly states it. How can you totally dismiss the idea? Again here is a quote from Metro News Toronto Edition:

Quote

The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.


Here is the Link: Arrests Linked to Buffalo Crime Family


It doesn't state the Buffalo family is active at all.
It says ''the arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro''

The word 'members' says nothing about the family as a whole and if it's active or defunct, which the media and LE has been saying for over a decade now. The word 'members' only means that there still are individual members and/or associates active. The same way there are still are individual members of the L.A. family or Cleveland family active..
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 09:54 PM

And then the argument can be made that they wouldnt say Buffalo Crime Family if it waant functioning
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by BillyBrizzi
Originally Posted by NickleCity

And here is my question Tampa:
If the Canadian Papers indicate the Buffalo Mob is active -- one clearly states it. How can you totally dismiss the idea? Again here is a quote from Metro News Toronto Edition:

Quote

The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.


Here is the Link: Arrests Linked to Buffalo Crime Family


It doesn't state the Buffalo family is active at all.
It says ''the arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro''

The word 'members' says nothing about the family as a whole and if it's active or defunct, which the media and LE has been saying for over a decade now. The word 'members' only means that there still are individual members and/or associates active. The same way there are still are individual members of the L.A. family or Cleveland family active..


But if the Buffalo Family is defunct and without leadership, why would a Canadian paper highlight the fact that those arrests were members of the Buffalo Crime Family instead of highlighting the Canadian Family or Families they were working for?

If the papers are referencing the Violi brothers and/or Carfagna...Why do they not just call them out as members of the Luppino Crime Family of Canada instead of reference the Buffalo family at all if Buffalo is truly defunct? I find that strange. Don't you?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:07 PM


Originally Posted by The_Rooster
They are either misinformed or have bad intel, or possibly want the designation to go away because they want funding to stay in different departments. Everyone has their own agenda, law enforcement is no different, active or retired.

Keeping tabs and full blown investigations are two different things, and again, there has been recent cases, like last years. Keeping tabs does not mean they have enough to build RICO cases but I believe members from Buffalo(faction) will be in the headlines again for crimes probably more of a chance at Enterprise Corruption than RICO.


Why would organized crime FBI agents and investigators want funding to go to other squads? It doesn't make sense. If OC agents have ANY agenda, that agenda would be to get more funding. It's not anti-terrorism agents saying the Buffalo mafia is dead. It is the Organized Crime FBI agents.

And you say your info comes from cops. Why are cops keeping tabs on these guys if they concede the Buffalo mob is dead? Counter-intuitive to say the least.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
It hasnt been 15 years, there was a bust last year. We cant move forward on other questions if you refuse to acknowledge that there are people that believe in law enforcement and journalism that believe it is the Buffalo Crime Family...and yes, you know nothing about Buffalo


The bust last year was strictly Canada-based. As I said before, I concede the Papalia operation might have stuff still going on but under the umbrella of the other, stronger criminal organizations.

And the Ciminelli bust does not count. There is literally NO mob ties there. There was an undercover informant in the case, and he didn't say ANYTHING about the mob. Nobody in that case mentioned the Buffalo mafia, or any Mafia for that money.

The Brian Cohen bust was not connected to the Buffalo Mafia at all, and again, you are the first person to mention any ties to the Buffalo mob. Federal prosecutors never mentioned his ties to the Buffalo crime family. The feds never did. No one did. He was a Lucchese crime family associate, living in Buffalo, basing his operations in Costa Rica and online. To the best of my knowledge, he didn't have any activities actually in Buffalo. It was all Costa Rica-based or online.


There has literally been ONE bust in the past 15 years, which was entirely Canada-based. And if the Papalia outfit is still active and has ties to the Buffalo faction of the Todaro crime family, then this brings me to my second question:
""By the way Rooster, why do you think the Musitanos whacked Papalia and his top lieutenant? For fun? Or to take over their rackets and interests?"" I asked that one twice.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
And then the argument can be made that they wouldnt say Buffalo Crime Family if it waant functioning

You are really deluded if you think, because a family becomes defunct, remaining members stop being members. They don't become un-made. Look at the Joseph Gagliano case.

Once you are made, you are made for life. James Tartaglione himself said that, even though he is a rat and testified against his fellow mobsters, he is still a made member of the family. He is simply "on the shelf." There is no case of a mobster being "un-made" from a crime family.

So Billy is 100% right.

Just because a member or members of a crime family were still active, does not mean the family as a whole is active. Look at Gagliano. Look at shelved members that get busted, like Mondo Rea. No one disputed Sammy the Bull was a Gambino crime family member when he was busted in Arizona.

The Todaro crime family case needs a hell of a lot more information. It does not, in any way, shape or form, prove that the family is still active. None of them were charged with racketeering, or the Canadian equivalent of racketeering. They were charged strictly with drug-trafficking. If Russell Papalardo were to be busted today for selling weed, no one would dispute he is the last known boss of the Cleveland crime family. But just because he (for the sake of argument) is caught selling weed, does not mean the Cleveland crime family is still an active hierarchy.

Joseph Gagliano was busted in 2014, and labelled a New Orleans crime family member. That family has been dead as a doorknob for decades, and no one has tried to claim otherwise (to the best of my knowledge).

When Big Billy D'Elia was busted in 2006, he was labelled the boss of the Bufalino crime family even though nobody was saying that the Bufalinos were still active. He was running an independent scheme of his, and not tied into any actual Mafia activity. But he was nevertheless charged with being the boss of the Bufalino crime family.


So, in closing, a made member of a crime family can be busted, but that doesn't prove his organization is still active. It is just a way for the feds to highlight his past criminal activity.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:20 PM

By the way Nickle, my response above covers your question. Good work trying to predict my answer Rooster, but you were way off.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:23 PM

I just anwered your question and you get answers you dont like because they dont fit your narrative.


One question per post, you have three left
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Buffalo faction of the Todaro crime family, then this brings me to my second question:
""By the way Rooster, why do you think the Musitanos whacked Papalia and his top lieutenant? For fun? Or to take over their rackets and interests?"" I asked that one twice.


Here is a question, and I really don't know the answer, but didn't what was left of the Papalia family end up in the Luppino organization? Or did they regroup and stay a separate family. I can' see them working for the Musitano's after the Johnny Pops and Barillaro hits...
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:26 PM

We already concluded both Giacomo anx I believe Cohen was with Nicoletti
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Also, how many rats has Buffalo had?


I, according to you, know nothing about Buffalo so it's pretty clear you're just asking this to try and catch me saying something incorrect.

Was John Sacco ever made? I know he was pretty high-ranking, very close to the Todaros. But I personally haven't seen anything indicating that he was actually made. The Buffalo News called him a mob associate. Gangster Report called him a capo, don't know where they got that from. Then again, they also called Carmine (Papa Smurf) Franco a Genovese capo even though he is a (confirmed) associate.

I don't think Billy the Kid was made either, was he?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:29 PM

Ok, so theyve had 2 if we count Sacco
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:30 PM

You go on tangents even when im being decenf enough to offer you a revisit to your questions.

Billy the Kid? Wtf
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I just anwered your question and you get answers you dont like because they dont fit your narrative.

Evidence is my only narrative. If it comes out from a real source tomorrow that the Buffalo crime family is still active with a fully active hierarchy, I'll concede I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

One question per post, you have three left


You're limiting my questions now? If you're trying to find excuses to answer as little questions as you can, that says a lot more about you than it does about me.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:31 PM

Three questions Nicky...you just dont understand do you?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa



The Todaro crime family case needs a hell of a lot more information. It does not, in any way, shape or form, prove that the family is still active. None of them were charged with racketeering, or the Canadian equivalent of racketeering. They were charged strictly with drug-trafficking. If Russell Papalardo were to be busted today for selling weed, no one would dispute he is the last known boss of the Cleveland crime family. But just because he (for the sake of argument) is caught selling weed, does not mean the Cleveland crime family is still an active hierarchy.


The key phrase is last known member of... Would't it make sense if the Canadian papers said last known to be members of the defunct or nearly defunct Buffalo Crime family?

Why not mention the Violi's connection to the Luppino Crime Family? Maybe they just don't have enough info to make that case--just as NYState OC Task Force and DA in Western NY couldn't tie Butch Quaracini and others in local 91 to the Buffalo Crime family--even thought they were?
That make sense to me... Doesn't make sense to you? If not, why not?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:31 PM

Lol nice try. What other questions do you have?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
We already concluded both Giacomo anx I believe Cohen was with Nicoletti


Giacomo and you aren't the definitive experts on the subject. We really have no clue who either of you are.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:33 PM

Then why cant you just agree to disagree? Why not just wait until a source you feel comcortable with comes out?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:33 PM

Ok, and thats your right to not to believe us isnf it?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:36 PM

So now were right back to where we were a week ago...good job
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:38 PM

God please, i hope youre nog writing another novel
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa



The Todaro crime family case needs a hell of a lot more information. It does not, in any way, shape or form, prove that the family is still active. None of them were charged with racketeering, or the Canadian equivalent of racketeering. They were charged strictly with drug-trafficking. If Russell Papalardo were to be busted today for selling weed, no one would dispute he is the last known boss of the Cleveland crime family. But just because he (for the sake of argument) is caught selling weed, does not mean the Cleveland crime family is still an active hierarchy.


The key phrase is last known member of... Would't it make sense if the Canadian papers said defunct or nearly defunct Buffalo Crime family? Why not mention the Violi's connection to the Luppino Crime Family? Maybe they just don't have enough info to make that case--just as NYState OC Task Force and DA in Western NY couldn't tie Butch Quaracini and others in local 91 to the Buffalo Crime family--even thought they were? That make sense to me... does int make sense to you? If not, why not?


Just because they chose not to throw in an adjective doesn't mean they are wrong.
Does Violi have a connection to the Luppino crime family? I know he definitely has a connection to the Buffalo crime family, since his grandfather was a Buffalo capo.

On that last part... you are saying that 'maybe they simply don't have enough evidence to definitively say that the Buffalo Mafia is active.' But they have specifically said the Buffalo Mafia is dead.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Then why cant you just agree to disagree? Why not just wait until a source you feel comcortable with comes out?


A source I feel comfortable with HAS come out. That source is called the Buffalo News, the FBI, the Erie County District Attorney, federal prosecutors and Scott Deitche, all of whom have said the Buffalo Mafia isn't active.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:42 PM

Ok, yes we all understand that Nicky from Tampa believes that Buffalo is dead. So now what?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[

On that last part... you are saying that 'maybe they simply don't have enough evidence to definitively say that the Buffalo Mafia is active.' But they have specifically said the Buffalo Mafia is dead.


No ...they didn't have enough evidence to connect Quaracini to the Buffalo mob even though he and Local 91 were connected. I am saying maybe they know the Buffalo Mob is active. That is why they mention it. They just don't have enough evidence to legally prove it and do the Canadian Equivalent of RICO predicate--just like with LIUNA 91.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:48 PM

The only Canadian equivalent would be Gangsterism i believe
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:52 PM

The Violi's are connected to the Luppino Crime family of Canada... They were grandsons to Giacomo Luppino and assumably made in that family as well. Here is an article that shows this connection:
Violi Brother's Connection to Luppino Crime Family
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 10:53 PM

Good article Nickle
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/04/18 11:06 PM

I guess the answer to my "now what" is Nicky finally understands that the debate is over? Or should we do this for another week and be right back to where we were a week ago?
Posted By: Hollander

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 12:20 AM

Their father was inducted into the American Cosa Nostra maybe the sons also?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:11 AM

I would say thats a good chance
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:12 AM

Nickle, great article/insert about the 91
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hollander
Their father was inducted into the American Cosa Nostra maybe the sons also?

I think most people think they were made in the Buffalo Family. We have no proof of that... just their connection and the Luppino family connection to Buffalo and Magaddino. That is why when the papers mention Todaro Family arrests, the conjecture is they are talking about the Violi Brothers and Cafargna. According to the article I posted above, Dominic Violi is heir apparent to the Luppino family... That would make him a Luppino made man... and if the reports are true... a Buffalo made man too. From what I understand, albeit not much, many of the guys in the Musitano, Luppino, and Papalia famlies were made in their respective Canadian families and Buffalo LCN.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nickle, great article/insert about the 91


Thanks Rooster...
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:33 AM

This is funny
How long are you guys going to keep this going??
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:42 AM

https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1050727231.html

2 Associates charged in '06...Alaimo may be a third
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:42 AM

Until the end of time....
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:43 AM

Question for SC if youre reading....why was The Arm banned...he was before my time but he either was a brilliant liar or actually knew some guys in the families
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTamp


Does Violi have a connection to the Luppino crime family? I know he definitely has a connection to the Buffalo crime family, since his grandfather was a Buffalo capo.


Yes... He is heir apparent to the Luppino crime family. Here is a quote from the Toronto Star:

Quote
The report continues that a top member of the force “along with other subordinates were also closely tied with TOC (traditional organized crime) and have been since the early 80’s.”

The report states that one Hamilton police officer “is a close, paid associate of Domenic VIOLI of Hamilton .. heir apparent to the LUPPINO Crime group of Burlington.”

Violi was among alleged GTA organized crime members who were arrested Thursday in a sweeping investigation into the fentanyl trade after early morning raids across southwestern Ontario and New York, the RCMP said.


It goes on to say:
Quote
The Violis are the grandsons of the late Giacomo Luppino of Hamilton, who was considered by police to be a founding member of the Crimine, a governing body for criminals in the ’Ndrangheta crime group and a longstanding associate of the Buffalo mob.

Their father Paolo was a top figure in the Montreal underworld before his murder in 1978.


All I know is there is more going on here that meets the eye. Here is the link to this article again: Violi Connection to Luppino Crime Family

Here is more about the families connection to Buffalo:

Quote


Giuseppe (Joe) Violi was the subject of a Canada-wide warrant for a day after his brother Domenico Violi, 51, was arrested in a pre-dawn raid in Hamilton on Thursday. At a news conference announcing the charges, RCMP Supt. Chris Leather alleged the brothers are “well-established” in organized crime, with a reach into Italy and other parts of Europe.

The brothers are the sons of Paolo Violi and grandsons of Giacomo Luppino, both once considered major leaders of the ’Ndrangheta, or Calabrian Mafia, in Canada.

Paolo Violi was murdered in 1978 in Montreal in the midst of an underworld war with the Rizzuto crime family. Luppino died of natural causes in Hamilton in March 1988 at the age of 88.

Back in the late 1960s, the RCMP hid recording devices amongst Luppino’s tomato plants in the backyard of his cozy, detached brick home on Ottawa St. S. in east Hamilton.

Those recordings captured Luppino talking about a variety of things — ranging from the freewheeling playing style of colourful Maple Leafs’ forward Eddie Shack to what Luppino considered the abundance of crime opportunities in his new homeland.

The RCMP also overheard Luppino talk with his wife Domenica about work stress and his feelings of contempt for a man who didn’t respect the traditional family unit.

Luppino was secretly recorded talking dismissively of a man who he considered a coward...

...The secret recordings from Luppino’s tomato plants were later used by the RCMP to help prove the existence of the ’Ndrangheta in Canada.

In one of the recorded talks, Luppino told his wife that he and their son Jimmy had recently met with Stefano Magaddino, an undertaker who was then head of the Buffalo mob family, about Toronto mobster Paul Volpe.

“Magaddino told Jimmy that if he went with or had dealings with Paul Volpe to be very careful, because he will cheat you or see that you are sent to jail. Magaddino also mentions that Volpe cheated him once,” Luppino said.

Summaries of the conversations were filed as exhibits in a trial in Hamilton in August 1982.

Giuseppe and Domenico were eight and 11 respectively when their father was murdered in 1978 in the Montreal ice cream shop which had been his headquarters.

Two uncles of Giuseppe and Domenico Violi were also slain in a protracted war with the Rizzuto crime family. The Violi family moved the brothers back to Hamilton, where they lived under the protection of their grandfather Luppino.


Here is that link:
Violi's Come from Colorful Family
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:50 AM

Hey Nicky, by any chance do you go by RochesterTruth on other blogs???......because that blogger literally has some of the same exact posts you do, and same tone in all their posts. Even references Gagliano in New Orleand as an example to try and prove Buffalo is dead just like you did...
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 02:00 AM

from RochesterTruth on another forum-

What shit is happening in Buffalo to show there is a family? Please provide a source as well as confirmation from a law enforcement agency backing up your allegations. Not just your street talk.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1050727231.html

2 Associates charged in '06...Alaimo may be a third


Which two are you saying were the associates and want to do some digging to see what turns up.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 02:09 AM

Giglia and Mordino


Can you try and find out the cop name who got convicted with the kid who committed the mortgage fraud? The cop was close to the leadership
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 02:15 AM

http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ed-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/9

Heres an article by Nickys almighty Coppola from 1998

Littered with tons of inaccuracies, states the Buffalo Family is dead in 1998, claims they are penniless, claims they are disorganized yet says they have leaders, claims all union corruption immediately ended at 210.....so according to Coppola, Buffalo has died several times in the last 20 years.

Coppola is clearly trying his best but his bullshit seeps through, vastly exaggerated journalism and fake news

Sorry Nicky
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 02:28 AM

Here is an article about that mentions William Giglia... It also talks about Koopman who was a mob hitman...
Giglia in Drug Bust

Quote from the article:

William and Margaret Giglia -- Admitted they helped arrange the murder of Robert DiGiulio, an Amherst celebrity bodyguard. Also claimed they sold more than $200,000 worth of cocaine, over a period of years, to Monsignor Stanley Ropelski, a Catholic priest. They have not been charged in this investigation.

From the Buffalo Then & Now:

Quote
John Pinelli, 24. The Buffalo man, suspected of involvement in an armed robbery, was shot execution-style in the back of the head and found on Sept. 29, 1986, in a ditch in the Town of Eden.
Two men await trial in the slaying -- reputed local drug dealer Luciano "Dilly" Spataro and William Koopman, a laborer for the City of Buffalo.
The murder is believed to have resulted from a dispute with Spataro, Pinelli's father-in-law, who was under investigation by several police agencies.


From Buffalo News in 2006 about Mordino:
Quote
Leonard Mordino, an alleged organized crime associate who served time for a 1971 murder, is accused of buying drugs from Peter Giglia, 44, of Fayette Avenue, Town of Tonawanda - identified as the ringleader of the group. Kevin Blakita, 37, of Waverly Avenue, Town of Tonawanda, was accused of helping Giglia sell and deliver cocaine.
The cocaine changed hands during meetings at suburban mall food courts, and in the parking lots of restaurants and other business establishments, Assistant U.S. Attorney George C. Burgasser said. "Cocaine remains a very big problem in the suburbs, and this is another indication," Burgasser said.


Another article on Koopman: Koopan Murders Pinelli
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 02:38 AM

good find
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 02:41 AM

what did you think about Coppolas 98 article
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:01 AM

http://buffalonews.com/2016/03/31/parole-granted-reversed-mob-hitman-dilly-spataro-wants-freedom-2/
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:13 AM

https://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2012/07/05/sinatra-bros-introduce-catering-menu.html

has to be the same Mordino...what hes been up to
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
what did you think about Coppolas 98 article

I think Herbeck regurgitated it in March 2017 when he wrote about the Buffalo Mob being dead. They were so similar!
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:23 AM

By the way Rooster, why do you think the Musitanos whacked Papalia and his top lieutenant? For fun? Or to take over their rackets and interests?"" I asked that one twice.


Yes, I believe the Musitanos whacked Paplia and Carmen to take over his rackets but under the guidance of the Violis and the Luppinos who continued to have strong ties to Buffalo after the murders.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:26 AM

So your knowledge is from knowing certain people, huh? That's great and all, but when I claimed to have spoken to a top LE official, you accused me of lying. Where's the double standard Rooster? Because apparently I'm supposed to accept that you've been talking to all these cops off the record, but when I claim to have talked to a cop I'm a liar?""

Certain people yes...not just cops, and not just dirty drunk cops as you have called them. If you have talked to a cop, I believe you, sorry for the initial distrust. I thought you were joking.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Probably, I keep hearing you can usually run into a few wiseguys and always a few wannabes at Sinatra’s on Saturday night. Of course, Nicky, this is unconfirmed hearsay. And if I had experienced this hearsay to be true I’m not going to admit it on here. Food is too good! 😂
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:31 AM

What sort of discrepancies were in the article here (http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html) that you claim has inaccuracies?

The main discrepency is that there was an acting boss in 2006 and now the discussion is whos going to lead the family. If there is no family to lead there is no need for a leader who sits a top the hierarchy and there is no reports on it.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:33 AM

Why do you hang on to the Vincent LoScalzo thing so much? Does that help your argument in any way?

Because its apples and oranges and to bring guys like Loscalzo and Delia into the same comparison as modern day Buffalo is ridiculous in my opinion.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:36 AM

Why was Joe Todaro Jr. a "close confidant" of a teenager who was supposedly a gang member and union leader as well?

Why is the earth round, why do people get cancer, why, why, why....because Todaro was extremely close with their father and they were mature for their age and Todaro wanted to take them under his wing and groom them, its what the mob does. Read the articles that Nicke posted, or are those articles not worthy?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:41 AM

What was the 2012 bust of the Todaro crime family you mentioned?

Ill concede the mortgage fraud was distantly related...but I think i can prove links to the cop eventully
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:43 AM

How does Frank Falzone's law firm specializing in debt collection constitute "mob-like" tactics?

Hes the Jojo Corozzo of Buffalo. Hes most likely made and it shows his behavior and ability just veiled in semantics.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:46 AM

"Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.""

Yes, correct...what does living in Brooklyn have to do with it? Easily could commute....planes, trains, cars. Two residences, etc.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:49 AM

""Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?""""

Coppolas article in 98 is a great example. Dead in 98, then died in 06-07 then died again last year. Its either over exaggerated or understated and they dont know the full scene/story and/or have unreliable sources they hope are credible. News stations like to sell their stories.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:52 AM


What in this article: https://www.redstate.com/diary/labo...rs-local-91-cant-seem-to-shake-its-past/ - indicates any sort of (current) mob activity

Read the most current article Nickle posted detailing the relations with Falzone and Sansanese. Current? time will tell
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:55 AM

Regarding the Ciminelli bust: "Does every construction scam have to do with the Mafia? No, and there is no evidence that this Ciminelli one did. This was a plain and simple scam. What would the mob's role in this be? And don't you think that if there was a mob angle to this then prosecutors, feds and news reporters would lap it up?""

No, but Ciminelli has always been under leaderships thumb and in my opinion provided sub contractors with cake jobs, inflated prices, allowed theft, and kicked up some money.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 03:57 AM

Is there any evidence that Cohen was a Buffalo crime family associate, and is there any evidence he worked with anyone other than the Luccheses.

The evidence is what was heard by me, and Giacomo, weve been over this. Not every co conspirator gets indicted or is revealed even though it is known
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 04:01 AM

How many of the guys that Sonny linked under are 65?
And, by the way, what happened to the dozens of members and associates from other families like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, etc.???? Or are your drunk city cops telling you that they are active as well?""""

Theres actually quite a few under 65 and quite a few under 45, a lot that arent even published names anywhere. I have no idea about Milwaukee, Cleveland or Pittsburgh but believe them to be another case of apples and oranges
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 04:04 AM


""Fading is not defunct and the Feds clearly have contrasting thoughts"" - Where are the contrasting thoughts?

FADING IS NOT DEFUNCT....THEY HAVE LABELED THEM DEAD AND FADING IN DIFFERENT REPORTS. TWO DIFFERENT DESIGNATIONS, TWO DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ENGLISH VOCABULARY
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 04:14 AM

There ya go Nicky....my answers dont require any responses that will simply lead us to the same conclusions.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 06:07 AM

The fact of the matter is this. The Feds had their foot on Buffalo crime family neck. The family took many hits in the 90's, notably the late 1990's. The Italians were starting to not be a top priority as other dangerous and bigger crime groups started to take center stage. The FBI infomants and wire taps, revealed that Buffalo had lost a lot of its grip it once had. When September 11, 2001 happen, the FBI shifted its resources and personal over to combat terrorism over the next years. They had their foot on the Buffalo crime family necks, but pulled it off and let buffalo breath once again.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 06:08 AM

I read the article posted by Nickel, it clearly states an associate of the Buffalo Mob, if they no longer exist and they are tied to two other mafia families why add That?
And this is from Canada they could give two ducks about U.S. funding.

Nicky's argument is if he was made he would always be made and that's why the mentioned it, I can see the logic, however, they're saying associate.
An associate can become dis-associated or become associated with another family.

Also, strange that the report is absent of saying the crimes were mafia related.

So strange you have all these arrests and indictments over the years for mafia rackets however, no mention of the mafia.

To me this article supports Rooster because it is congruent with the other say 1/2 dozen articles to whereas there were crimes most often commuted by a mafia family but the reporting leaves that part out.

I mean we all agree that Violi is with atleast one family.

So if they are not listing him as being mafia that supports Roosters argument what also supports Rooster argument is they are saying Violi had cops plural working for him and feeding him Intel and working him to avoid indictment??
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 07:38 AM

Rooster, the name of the cop in the Wilson case is retired detective Daniel Rice. He had connections to the New England and Colombo crime families. I am sure he just got a slap on the wrist.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Regarding the Ciminelli bust: "Does every construction scam have to do with the Mafia? No, and there is no evidence that this Ciminelli one did. This was a plain and simple scam. What would the mob's role in this be? And don't you think that if there was a mob angle to this then prosecutors, feds and news reporters would lap it up?""

No, but Ciminelli has always been under leaderships thumb and in my opinion provided sub contractors with cake jobs, inflated prices, allowed theft, and kicked up some money.


Rooster or Giacomo, I don't have the articles now but when the Canalside and Harbor Center projects were going on... Didn't Mark Cerrone's construction company in Niagara Falls do a restructuring where he made a female relative the owner of the company to take advantage of minority hiring for the project? And isn't he related to Anthony Cerrone that was arrested in the Local '91 indictments. And wasn't it that female owned construction company that was behind some of the work stoppages for the project. I don't know if this is connected to the mafia, but i want to do some digging and if you have anything, please post.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:28 PM

Not sure on this one, obviously possible. I know 210 is on the rebuild of the Fort Erie Bridge right now and there has been numerous work stoppages already.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:52 PM

I also know that Liunas counterpart in Canada is on the bridge, I would imagine somebody from Canada faction has some connection there, has to in my opinion
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 01:53 PM

In that bust in 1990, a few of the guys were from Fort Erie
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 07:18 PM

Youre welcome Nicky...why so ungrateful?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Hey Nicky, by any chance do you go by RochesterTruth on other blogs???......because that blogger literally has some of the same exact posts you do, and same tone in all their posts. Even references Gagliano in New Orleand as an example to try and prove Buffalo is dead just like you did...


Never heard of it. But you've yet to respond to the Gagliano thing. Do you believe the New Orleans crime family is active?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://buffalonews.com/1998/01/31/t...ed-values-and-falling-behind-the-times/9

Heres an article by Nickys almighty Coppola from 1998

Littered with tons of inaccuracies, states the Buffalo Family is dead in 1998, claims they are penniless, claims they are disorganized yet says they have leaders, claims all union corruption immediately ended at 210.....so according to Coppola, Buffalo has died several times in the last 20 years.

Coppola is clearly trying his best but his bullshit seeps through, vastly exaggerated journalism and fake news

Sorry Nicky


Where does he say the Buffalo mafia is dead in 1998? He doesn't. Here's what he says:
""" "We still feel the LCN (La Casa Nostra) is a viable and visible threat to Western New York," says Virgil D. Woolley, acting head of the Buffalo FBI office. But he admits the Buffalo mob has a weak pulse and resuscitation seems unlikely without strong leadership and profitable criminal enterprises.

Still, Woolley refuses to label the mob dead, pointing to telemarketing frauds, infiltration of unions and legitimate businesses, and the possibility that casino gambling might spawn addicts who find only Mafia loan sharks available when they need cash."""

Stop lying to people. Withering does not mean dead. It means that it's in the process of dying.

He says "All but penniless." Not penniless. The difference there is the fact that, whilst some members might still have cash and rackets, the family as a whole is hurting for money. Which is true.

And where does he say they, by 1998, still had leaders? Again, you are lying. He said they are disorganized and without strong leadership. Again, stop lying to people. I think your endgoal here is to say enough blatant lies, such as misquoting articles, in the hope that newcomers to this thread will see it and believe you.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Why was Joe Todaro Jr. a "close confidant" of a teenager who was supposedly a gang member and union leader as well?

Why is the earth round, why do people get cancer, why, why, why....because Todaro was extremely close with their father and they were mature for their age

Mature for their age... Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

and Todaro wanted to take them under his wing and groom them, its what the mob does. Read the articles that Nicke posted, or are those articles not worthy?


I understand it's what the mob does. But not bosses. Bosses don't groom teenagers to commit street crimes. Anthony Spero is maybe the closest example I can think of. But even then, they were at least young adults. And they were certainly not "close associates" or "confidants" of Spero.

For a boss to take teenagers under his wing completely undermines the purpose of a chain-of-command. Vincent Gigante's entire downfall was caused when he began being direct with an associate.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
By the way Rooster, why do you think the Musitanos whacked Papalia and his top lieutenant? For fun? Or to take over their rackets and interests?"" I asked that one twice.


Yes, I believe the Musitanos whacked Paplia and Carmen to take over his rackets but under the guidance of the Violis and the Luppinos who continued to have strong ties to Buffalo after the murders.


Fair enough. Thanks for the response. Why would the Violis/Luppinos get the Musitanos to whack Buffalo's Canadian capo and second-in-command, and then retain ties to the family though?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
So your knowledge is from knowing certain people, huh? That's great and all, but when I claimed to have spoken to a top LE official, you accused me of lying. Where's the double standard Rooster? Because apparently I'm supposed to accept that you've been talking to all these cops off the record, but when I claim to have talked to a cop I'm a liar?""

Certain people yes...not just cops, and not just dirty drunk cops as you have called them. If you have talked to a cop, I believe you, sorry for the initial distrust. I thought you were joking.


I was joking, but it was to prove a point, as I mentioned before. Thanks for the response and apology.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
What sort of discrepancies were in the article here (http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html) that you claim has inaccuracies?

The main discrepency is that there was an acting boss in 2006 and now the discussion is whos going to lead the family. If there is no family to lead there is no need for a leader who sits a top the hierarchy and there is no reports on it.


Good point. 2006 is a gray point for me in terms of the family's activity. That was when the final FBI chart was released, but logic shows us that the FBI chart simply listed the remaining members as opposed to trying to put together a real structure. It seems that the FBI chart in 2006 remained the same as the structure the decade before, only with dead members taken out, which is why there were only 2 guys to a capo.

I imagine that most people in 2006 weren't ready to say the Buffalo Mafia was DEAD. It had been active a few years prior. And there was definitely still the shell of a structure there. Maybe there was still some guys kicking up. Maybe there were entire crews that were still active, but not in contact with the administration. Who knows.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Why do you hang on to the Vincent LoScalzo thing so much? Does that help your argument in any way?

Because its apples and oranges and to bring guys like Loscalzo and Delia into the same comparison as modern day Buffalo is ridiculous in my opinion.


I don't think it is. I'd say the Trafficante crime family and the Buffalo crime family are in the same league. Both were very powerful in their height. Then, starting in the late 80s, both families began to wane. The Trafficantes began to wane with the death of Santo Trafficante Jr., and the Todaros began to wane due to a huge FBI onslaught. By 1998, the Buffalo mob was "withering," "weak pulse," and almost dead, and the Trafficante crime family were most likely under the control of the Gambinos, and there wasn't much left of them either.

I think that really puts them in the same ballpark. I am basing this off the evidence available from law enforcement, journalists, and mob turncoats.
Of course, in your opinion, the Trafficantes and Buffalo family aren't in the same ballpark at all because you believe Buffalo is still active. But, based on evidence alone, the two families' demise seems to go at a similar rate.
Bufalinos seem to have died out earlier. Then there was a brief attempt at a revival, which didn't work.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
How does Frank Falzone's law firm specializing in debt collection constitute "mob-like" tactics?

Hes the Jojo Corozzo of Buffalo. Hes most likely made and it shows his behavior and ability just veiled in semantics.


JoJo Corozzo Jr. has been alleged by the feds to have arranged mob meetings, and have off-the-record meetings with mob guys, as well as being possibly made. I have never seen anything linking Frank Falzone to anywhere near that sort of behavior.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
"Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.""

Yes, correct...what does living in Brooklyn have to do with it? Easily could commute....planes, trains, cars. Two residences, etc.


It's unlikely, that's all.
And he was indicted in Feb. 2000? So was he made in Jan? Bear in mind that the crew probably knew they were under investigation by the feds, the feds are usually very eager to let them know.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
""Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?""""

Coppolas article in 98 is a great example. Dead in 98, then died in 06-07 then died again last year.

Ok, a few things wrong there.
They did not "die" in 1998, and nobody was saying they did. They were in the process of dying. "Weak pulse." "Expired." "But he admits the Buffalo mob has a weak pulse and resuscitation seems unlikely without strong leadership and profitable criminal enterprises."

06 was the last time the FBI considered them alive.

They did not "die" in 2017 "again." The article simply reported how they came to their demise. Nobody was saying "last year the family officially died."

Here's the timeline, which I believe is pretty accurate:
1998 - Withering. Almost dead.
2006 - The feds finally give up on them.
2012 - Joe Todaro's now dead, but journalists doubt anyone will take over.
2017 - Feds and journalists REINFORCE the notion they are dead.

I don't consider that to be a conflicting timeline of events. Of course there was a period of uncertainty. I imagine that it was around 2006 when people became not so sure of the family's activity. The 2006-2012 period was probably when most people, including LE, really didn't know what was going on.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

What in this article: https://www.redstate.com/diary/labo...rs-local-91-cant-seem-to-shake-its-past/ - indicates any sort of (current) mob activity

Read the most current article Nickle posted detailing the relations with Falzone and Sansanese. Current? time will tell


I understand the connection. But I don't think that connection has been there for well over a decade.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Regarding the Ciminelli bust: "Does every construction scam have to do with the Mafia? No, and there is no evidence that this Ciminelli one did. This was a plain and simple scam. What would the mob's role in this be? And don't you think that if there was a mob angle to this then prosecutors, feds and news reporters would lap it up?""

No, but Ciminelli has always been under leaderships thumb and in my opinion provided sub contractors with cake jobs, inflated prices, allowed theft, and kicked up some money.


I understand his former ties to the mob, but his recent bribery thing doesn't connect to the mob. There was even a CI in that case who couldn't come up with a mob connection.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
The fact of the matter is this. The Feds had their foot on Buffalo crime family neck. The family took many hits in the 90's, notably the late 1990's. The Italians were starting to not be a top priority as other dangerous and bigger crime groups started to take center stage. The FBI infomants and wire taps, revealed that Buffalo had lost a lot of its grip it once had. When September 11, 2001 happen, the FBI shifted its resources and personal over to combat terrorism over the next years. They had their foot on the Buffalo crime family necks, but pulled it off and let buffalo breath once again.


That all sounds good, but I believe that the FBI targeted the Buffalo mob, took away its best rackets, and the Buffalo mob limped off into the woods and died from its wounds. That's what happened with many other families across America as well.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:50 PM

Youre welcome Nicky. We appreciate your responses. Youre clearly confused when you ask someone a question and they respond. My answers are what I believe not a chance for you to get uoset over and rebuttal. Now go cry because people dont believe you and your articles. It will be ok buddy, youll get through this tough time and be a better person for understanding what the word subjective means.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 09:52 PM

Again, we know how you feel, now what Nicky? Let me guess youre just going to keep regurgitating the same sentiment until you get tired?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/05/18 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
The fact of the matter is this. The Feds had their foot on Buffalo crime family neck. The family took many hits in the 90's, notably the late 1990's. The Italians were starting to not be a top priority as other dangerous and bigger crime groups started to take center stage. The FBI infomants and wire taps, revealed that Buffalo had lost a lot of its grip it once had. When September 11, 2001 happen, the FBI shifted its resources and personal over to combat terrorism over the next years. They had their foot on the Buffalo crime family necks, but pulled it off and let buffalo breath once again.


That all sounds good, but I believe that the FBI targeted the Buffalo mob, took away its best rackets, and the Buffalo mob limped off into the woods and died from its wounds. That's what happened with many other families across America as well.


Nicky, I appreciate you opinion. You definitely reflect the thoughts of the Buffalo News and the Feds--that is without question. Your arguments have been well thought out and helped us have a great discussion. Although I certainly understand the feds, the buffalo news, and your position my experience tells me otherwise. I know you are a logic guy and experience plays no role in decision making for you... but some of us go by our gut. I think this is why we will not resolve this debate, at this time. If in the next two years or so nothing comes of the Violi arrests, there is no more LCN type crime in WNY, then I will believe the Buffalo News and Feds. I just can't at this point for the reasons Rooster, Giacomo, and I have stated. That may make me naive or gullible in your eyes and the eyes of others, but that is OK.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 02:57 AM

Nicky;

I do no think you can compare Buffalo to other defunt families for a few reasons:

1) Maggidino headed the commission at one point.
2) Buffalo had 200 made men, they were bigger than 3 of the 5 families and Chicago.
3) Buffalo was set up as the gate keeper of the Canadian border from the days of prohibition them and Bonnano were the only families to have powerful crews on both sides of the boarder. The Bonnano's lost that when the Rizzuto's broke away, so Buffalo remained as the only family to have that route intact.
4) The other smaller families some had 20-30 Made men at their peak it is alot easier for those familes to die off.
5) At 200 Made memebers you had their sons, nephews, cousins etc to carry on the tradition.
6) The Canadiin smuggle route is stil intact today and as per current LE, that pipeline is being used to smuggle drugs onto U.S. soil.
7) That smuggle route is a racket onto itself.
8) How does Clevland, Dallas or even Tampa compare to Buffalo, as far as I know Trafficante Jr. really had all the power not so much his organization, pretty much everything died with him.

Nicky consider this if the Genovese family dwindled down from 200 made mebers where about they are today to say 20-30 guys would a lot of experts consider them being dead in relative terms?

That would be a 90% decrease, do you really need a squad for say 20 made guys?

Look at it this way if the 5 familes decreased in membership from where they are today say 700 made guys down to just 70 would the FBI need multiple squads to cover them? And would the overall opinion of the mob as a whole be that it is DEAD?

Yes however, it does not mean they are defunct....
and that does not mean that if the attention is taken away from them that they would not have the capacity to build from 20 to 30 to 40 again.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 03:11 AM

Couldnt compare those families to Buffalo way back then and you cant compare them to Buffalo now. Apples and oranges. Just the way it is. And theyll be viable for a some time to come.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Youre welcome Nicky. We appreciate your responses. Youre clearly confused when you ask someone a question and they respond. My answers are what I believe not a chance for you to get uoset over and rebuttal. Now go cry because people dont believe you and your articles. It will be ok buddy, youll get through this tough time and be a better person for understanding what the word subjective means.


The existence of a crime family is not subjective.

And I don't see your point of view here? If I ask a question, and you respond, am I not allowed to follow up?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:20 AM

I get that this argument won't go anywhere. It's evidence vs. street knowledge. When the two conflict, I (personally) go with the evidence at hand, as opposed to uncorroborated street knowledge. If people disagree, that's on them.

BUT. I will reply to Bensonhurst, since he is questioning the 'logic' of my argument. But with Rooster, and Giacomo, and others, there is really only so much I can say. I can say "Brian Cohen is not a Buffalo crime family associate" and Rooster can say "Yes he is." I can't argue with that, because anyone can make the argument that the feds are wrong, or that DAs are wrong, or that journalists are wrong.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky;

I do no think you can compare Buffalo to other defunt families for a few reasons:

1) Maggidino headed the commission at one point.
2) Buffalo had 200 made men, they were bigger than 3 of the 5 families and Chicago.
3) Buffalo was set up as the gate keeper of the Canadian border from the days of prohibition them and Bonnano were the only families to have powerful crews on both sides of the boarder. The Bonnano's lost that when the Rizzuto's broke away, so Buffalo remained as the only family to have that route intact.
4) The other smaller families some had 20-30 Made men at their peak it is alot easier for those familes to die off.
5) At 200 Made memebers you had their sons, nephews, cousins etc to carry on the tradition.
6) The Canadiin smuggle route is stil intact today and as per current LE, that pipeline is being used to smuggle drugs onto U.S. soil.
7) That smuggle route is a racket onto itself.
8) How does Clevland, Dallas or even Tampa compare to Buffalo, as far as I know Trafficante Jr. really had all the power not so much his organization, pretty much everything died with him.

Nicky consider this if the Genovese family dwindled down from 200 made mebers where about they are today to say 20-30 guys would a lot of experts consider them being dead in relative terms?

That would be a 90% decrease, do you really need a squad for say 20 made guys?

Look at it this way if the 5 familes decreased in membership from where they are today say 700 made guys down to just 70 would the FBI need multiple squads to cover them? And would the overall opinion of the mob as a whole be that it is DEAD?

Yes however, it does not mean they are defunct....
and that does not mean that if the attention is taken away from them that they would not have the capacity to build from 20 to 30 to 40 again.



You throw around the 200 made members number, but by 1989 there were only 45 made members. 45! And that was BEFORE they began to feel the effects of the FBI.
If the Buffalo crime family had 200 members in 1989, and then they got under the thumb of the feds (like all families in America did), then they would have certainly survived and they would probably still be active today. But when the FBI launched their attack against the Buffalo mob, the crime family was ALREADY down to 45 made members. Which means a far quicker demise for a family, and an easier job for the feds.

I am not saying that the FBI is the sole reason for the Buffalo mob's downfall. The family actually began shrinking after Stefano Magaddino's death. In fact, according to Matt Gryta, the family's influence was waning by 1979. For those who don't know, Gryta is a veteran crime reporter for the Buffalo News who has worked at the Buffalo News for five decades. He is quite knowledgeable on the mob all over the states.

Stefano Magaddino, even before he died, caused a rift in the family. Then, after his death, there was another conflict in which Joe Todaro Sr. came out the victor. He did a good job at patching things up for awhile, but it was too little too late and by 1989 the family had gone from 200 made members in the 50s and 60s to to 45 made members. Then, the family had a spate of informers due to the FBI's onslaught, the Vegas connection was severed, the union control was dismantled, and loansharking & gambling books were hit. Joe Todaro Sr. stopped the family getting into narcotics as best he could (although members began to get involved in drugs when he semi-retired to Florida), which means the Buffalo mob never had a big foothold in that market. They were definitely into gambling and loansharking, but here's what Lee Coppola said about that:
"But like a lot of businesses, the mob found that when the economy goes bad, profits shrink and eventually even disappear. The region's declining population, the loss of thousands of factory jobs with weekly incomes and convenient locales for betting played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo Mafia. The customer base evaporated, and mob leaders weren't wise enough -- or strong enough -- to find other sources of income to fill the void."
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:22 AM

Im.not asking you any questions. Youre welcome to keep asking questions Nicky, what else would you like answered that hasnt already been answered by now 4 different posters?

It is subjective actually, interpretation is subjective, definition is subjective, articles are subjective, etc., etc.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:27 AM

"But like a lot of businesses, the mob found that when the economy goes bad, profits shrink and eventually even disappear. The region's declining population, the loss of thousands of factory jobs with weekly incomes and convenient locales for betting played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo Mafia. The customer base evaporated, and mob leaders weren't wise enough -- or strong enough -- to find other sources of income to fill the void."


This is the most broad, sweeping, generalizing statement in the world.

Especially when the FBI touts how the modern day Mafia has evolved, found new rackets, adapted, and proved their resilience. Give me a break.

Now your "hard" evidence is looking hollow. Reminds me in 98 when Coppola says that the Buffalo mob is penniless. What a joke.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:31 AM

That one line by Coppola in that article proves he is provocateur who writes things that are delusional. Trying to sell himself and his writing with exaggeration and self perceived grandeur
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:33 AM

Yep, waning in 1979. More delusion, changing but not waning. Evolution of the entire world its called.

His articles have contradictions in them as well.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:37 AM

Coppola could write anything and youd take it as Gospel
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:40 AM

You keep questioning street knowledge as if it doesnt exist. I asked you before, do you know what kind of car Loscalzo drives?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:47 AM

In other words, youre from Tampa correct? The Tampa family is suppose to be your thing right? Do you have any first hand experience or rumors from either reliable or unreliable sources about any of the members at any time in their history?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:53 AM

However Matt Gryta, crime reporter for The Buffalo News, points out many believe the Magaddino Crime Family has "expanded into the new millennium through telemarketing, pump and dump stock scams and internet pornography with the “family” expanding its operations nationwide."

Read more: Buffalo crime family https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Buffalo+crime+family&item_type=topic#ixzz5BrgRGAqb
Follow us: @RevolvyEarth on Twitter | RevolvyEarth on Facebook
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:55 AM

Thats a quote from Grytas book
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:59 AM

Joe Todaro Sr. stopped the family getting into narcotics as best he could (although members began to get involved in drugs when he semi-retired to Florida), which means the Buffalo mob never had a big foothold in that market....

Another contradiction, look at the bust in 1990 where all those guys were crossing the river in boats with a shitload of drugs....Buffalo family had tons of dealers in the 80s and 90s on the streets.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 05:02 AM

http://buffalonews.com/1990/09/07/1...ught-canadian-arrests-tied-to-local-mob/
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 05:03 AM

Tell me when to stop Nicky
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 05:32 AM

200 made members at its height? Buffalo had a little over 100 made members. Already posted what happened after Appalachian and onwards which led to Bufalino having his own family, Rochester splitting, Gaspare and Peter Magaddino went to the Bonanno family.

BensonHURST, the Rizzutos split from the Bonanno family after Joe flipped, before that they were still mad for George being killed that they hardly had activities with the Bonanno family. The Cotroni faction remained with the Bonanno family, so both Bonanno and Buffalo had crews on both sides of the boarder.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 05:56 AM

Nicky,

If the Feds and local LE have basically written them off a long time ago and the news/press primary source is LE, so its not hard to understand that they share the same opinion more times than not.

But if that is the case that would mean they are not looking...
RIGHT??

If they are NOT looking how can they really see what's going on??

You see my point??

Would relying on them make the most sense?

Has anyone high up flipped that was really in the know of how many made men they have/had?

How do they really know what's going on in Canada?

case in point look at the Violi's LE stated they have big international connections and locally they had guys on the police force in their pocket, that is influence.

Before this bust what did the FBI have to say about Violi?

Never ever hears anything about them
Just recently with the Rizzuto's that one of them were seen meeting with someone the day before Nicolo was taken out.

So one of my points if they had nothing on Violi is it conceivable there are others running around they have nothing on either because they were not looking because they thought they were dead?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Joe Todaro Sr. stopped the family getting into narcotics as best he could (although members began to get involved in drugs when he semi-retired to Florida), which means the Buffalo mob never had a big foothold in that market....

Another contradiction, look at the bust in 1990 where all those guys were crossing the river in boats with a shitload of drugs....Buffalo family had tons of dealers in the 80s and 90s on the streets.


I never said they weren't involved. They just didn't have a huge foothold.

According to FBI informer Fred Saia, both Todaro Sr. and Jr. made it very clear that the family was not to deal drugs. In fact, Saia claimed he was proposed for membership in the Buffalo mob, but his name was left off the lists when he was caught dealing cocaine in 1985.

Todaro Sr. was anti-drugs. It could have been a Paul Castellano situation, where he still took huge kickbacks from Patsy Conte, but he was nevertheless unfriendly towards drug-dealers in his family. When Todaro Sr. semiretired to Florida in the late 80s, it seems this stance changed with Todaro Jr.

Can I make myself any clearer here? There are always drug dealers in every family, but Todaro Sr. certainly didn't like it, meaning that drug dealers probably had a hard time advancing in the family.

Do you get what I mean?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 06:07 AM

Giacomo;

They unofficially broke off from the Bonnano's after Georgie, that is why Massino sent members of his admin to bring them back into the fold on 3 different occasions and they kept getting dismissed.

Vito rizzutto told Vitale "We are like our own Family"

Massino had no idea how many guys they had in Canada
Vito was making guys/whacking guys without even telling massino

They offered Vito a Capo position he declined and said ask my dad.

If that is not a F.U. every which way under the SUN I don't know what is?

All they did was send some money on a monthly basis to keep the peace.

After Massino flipped they outright told the Bonnano's to take a hike officially.

They refused to acknowledge Vinny Gorgeous as boss because he was appointed by Massino.

How do you consider them a part of the family if:
1) they don't take orders from you.
2) make their own guys with out asking or telling you.
3) Kill guys without asking or telling you.
4) The boss has no idea what rackets you have or do not have.

Were they with the Bonnano's??
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky,

If the Feds and local LE have basically written them off a long time ago and the news/press primary source is LE, so its not hard to understand that they share the same opinion more times than not.

But if that is the case that would mean they are not looking...
RIGHT??

If they are NOT looking how can they really see what's going on??

You see my point??

Would relying on them make the most sense?

Has anyone high up flipped that was really in the know of how many made men they have/had?

How do they really know what's going on in Canada?

case in point look at the Violi's LE stated they have big international connections and locally they had guys on the police force in their pocket, that is influence.

Before this bust what did the FBI have to say about Violi?

Never ever hears anything about them
Just recently with the Rizzuto's that one of them were seen meeting with someone the day before Nicolo was taken out.

So one of my points if they had nothing on Violi is it conceivable there are others running around they have nothing on either because they were not looking because they thought they were dead?





The feds certainly didn't pull that 45 number out of their ass. Why do you automatically assume they had more? Unless information comes out disproving it, we have to go with the feds on the 45 made men figure. Feds love to trump things up to get more funding and present more of a threat, which means that 45 might have even been tipping the scales.

Canadian police have known about Violi for years, as well as his crime group. His arrest did not present some mystical new figure.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Thats a quote from Grytas book


Someone wrote that on Wikipedia linking the quote from his book, which Wikipedia seems as "dubious," meaning that they don't know if it actually is from that book. If you're right, you're right, but can anyone actually see if that quote is in the book? Wikipedia isn't so sure that it comes from the book. Why would Matt's book about John Gotti tell us about what the Buffalo mob is into now? I haven't read the book so don't crucify me if I'm wrong here...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Tell me when to stop Nicky


Don't act like you're winning this argument by linking all sorts of articles from the 80s and 90s. Nothing you have presented indicates the Buffalo mob is still active.
I have never disputed the Canadian-Buffalo drug pipeline. I am disputing that the upper-echelon of the family were behind it or wanted to be involved in it. Which Joe Todaro Sr. made pretty clear when he had the no-drugs policy.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 06:14 AM

And @Bensonhurst. The argument that 'because the feds aren't keeping huge tabs on them means they are wrong' is a valid point. But the feds are certainly more in the know than an internet poster who might not even be from Buffalo.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky,

Before this bust what did the FBI have to say about Violi?



To add to my response to this.
Violi was a Canadian. So why would the FBI need to know anything about him? The FBI didn't bust him. The Canadians did.

Maybe you're referring to what Canadian LE knew about Violi. Well, they knew as far back as 2002 that the Violis had cops on their payroll. Cheers to Wiseguy from Black Hand for linking this article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/halton-police-report-1.4404934
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 10:54 AM

I like how you gloss over all my questions and logic that rivals the same logic you have been trying to use for a month now. So, yes I would be winning in that regard, your version has holes just like every ones version.

Coppolas simply a provacteur with hidden agendas and Ill search for the actual insert for Grytas book.

And clearly no one in any Mafia family listened to any of the bosses when it came to drug dealing. Every family was in to it since the beginning. So for Todaro to try and halt it was in vein as Im sure he knew if thats what was actually by him according to a rat or a journalist.

And yea I may or may not be from Buffalo, just like you may or may not be from Tampa. Difference is your an article reader, which means you could be from anywhere.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 11:00 AM

The Feds are more in the know just like they were able to uncover and prevent Septembe 11th when it was right under their noses.

Youre oblivious to government failure and lack of intel because you have faith in corrupt systems that in turn
exaggerate and misunderstand and subsequently help you with your narrative. Not all Americans believe what they read in articles or what their government tells them knowing they have inherent flaws and make mistakes like all other humans do.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 11:03 AM

The FBI and RCMP always have joint operations on international peoples and would want to know because he is part of the Buffalo Family and is 60 miles from our border and would want him identified in their files, thats why. Logic.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 11:10 AM

-Nothing you have presented indicates the Buffalo mob is still active-

And every article you posted has easily been torn apart but yet you dont see the errors and chose to interpret discrepancies as truths. So again Nkcky, again for the 20th time, what is it that eludes you when people disagree with you that the family is dead?

Everything you reference has its holes in it and can be refuted just like what everyone else posts. Thats the only pure logic here.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 02:55 PM

Nicky;

That is my point for the FBI and local LE to declare the family defunct however, have no idea what was and is going on in Canada, and the family has always had and by your admission currently has a Canadian crew, in which they seem very intact, very capable and like they have multiple rackets going on.

How could the FBI make that call?

What if they had a couple of dozen guys throughout Canada?
Not saying they do.. How could you say NO WAY??

The most they should have said was the American Branch of the Buffalo families rackets have been seriously disrupted and membership on this side is down by a lot however, we really do not know what they have going on on the other side of the border???

If the FBI has no idea and the RCMP I would say is about 50 years behind the U.S. in everything...
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 04:30 PM

Another good point Bensonhurst
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:13 PM

Im hoping it provokes Nicky to go into another long winded post and he can keep this thread going until Memorial Day....I hope he proves me wrong though
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky,

Before this bust what did the FBI have to say about Violi?



To add to my response to this.
Violi was a Canadian. So why would the FBI need to know anything about him? The FBI didn't bust him. The Canadians did.

Maybe you're referring to what Canadian LE knew about Violi. Well, they knew as far back as 2002 that the Violis had cops on their payroll. Cheers to Wiseguy from Black Hand for linking this article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/halton-police-report-1.4404934


Nicky, looks like the FBI knew something about this. Did you see the quote at the end of the article you referenced:

Quote

The investigation, said Michael McGarrity of the FBI, "unearthed and dug up the roots of a partnership extending from New York City to Buffalo and Toronto to Montreal, proving once again that Italian organized crime groups have evolved far beyond the neighbourhood cliques of days gone by."


Looks like the mafia activity in Canada has US partnerships in NY City and where else?

Oh yeah, there it is: BUFFALO! 😂 😆 😝 LoL!

I’d say the FBI knew about Violi in March 2017 when it told the Buffalo News the Todaro Crime Family was dead, Todaro retired, and just a couple old timers left. That goes to a point I made in a previous post on this thread... sometimes they give the papers misinformation; either that at they are inept.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:32 PM

His response will now be that they mean Buffalo as a city used as transport or a hub for other crime families and that the statement doesnt mean or have anything to do with the Buffalo family
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:35 PM

He will say that the FBI now means that Buffalo simply is a title only and it refers to an era gone by and only means that the people involved were once under the guise of Buffalo.

Nicky?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:36 PM

The FBI knew about the Violis when their dad ran Montreal
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:41 PM

Wait for it....wait for it...
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky,

Before this bust what did the FBI have to say about Violi?



To add to my response to this.
Violi was a Canadian. So why would the FBI need to know anything about him? The FBI didn't bust him. The Canadians did.

Maybe you're referring to what Canadian LE knew about Violi. Well, they knew as far back as 2002 that the Violis had cops on their payroll. Cheers to Wiseguy from Black Hand for linking this article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/halton-police-report-1.4404934


Nicky, looks like the FBI knew something about this. Did you see the quote at the end of the article you referenced:

Quote

The investigation, said Michael McGarrity of the FBI, "unearthed and dug up the roots of a partnership extending from New York City to Buffalo and Toronto to Montreal, proving once again that Italian organized crime groups have evolved far beyond the neighbourhood cliques of days gone by."


Looks like the mafia activity in Canada has US partnerships in NY City and where else?

Oh yeah, there it is: BUFFALO! 😂 😆 😝 LoL!

I’d say the FBI knew about Violi in March 2017 when it told the Buffalo News the Todaro Crime Family was dead, Todaro retired, and just a couple old timers left. That goes to a point I made in a previous post on this thread... sometimes they give the papers misinformation; either that at they are inept.


The FBI had been working with the RCMP for how long? Well over a year.

And the FBI in Buffalo didn't know about Violi?

Umm... Uhh... Ohh.... Umm... Maybe the FBI field office in NY City forgot to tell the Buffalo Field office.... confused lol LOL!!!
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 07:55 PM

The FBI has known about the two Violis as soon as they were born.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/06/18 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky;

That is my point for the FBI and local LE to declare the family defunct however, have no idea what was and is going on in Canada, and the family has always had and by your admission currently has a Canadian crew, in which they seem very intact, very capable and like they have multiple rackets going on.

How could the FBI make that call?

What if they had a couple of dozen guys throughout Canada?
Not saying they do.. How could you say NO WAY??

The most they should have said was the American Branch of the Buffalo families rackets have been seriously disrupted and membership on this side is down by a lot however, we really do not know what they have going on on the other side of the border???

If the FBI has no idea and the RCMP I would say is about 50 years behind the U.S. in everything...




This would have been a much better way for the Feds to handle it... I can't believe the FB didn't know of the RMCP investigation in March 2017 when the stated to the Buffalo News that the family was dead. They were working with the RMCP at that time. They had to know about Violi and Buffalo. They were either purposely giving misinformation of the FBI field office in Buffalo is inept... or for some reason they don't want to admit there is still some stuff going on with the family, especially in connection with the Canadian crews..
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 12:07 AM

I think Nicky has gone on a much needed vacation to Siesta Key
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 02:02 AM

The last point I wanted to make was this:

The investigation, said Michael McGarrity of the FBI, "unearthed and dug up the roots of a partnership extending from New York City to Buffalo and Toronto to Montreal, proving once again that Italian organized crime groups have evolved far beyond the neighbourhood cliques of days gone by."

Maybe you are right about that part Nicky and they are not operating like a traditional LCN family.

Maybe they are operating like Canada's version of a LCN family.

The Rizzuto's were like a Drug Cartel/LCN family.

But they had a heirachy in place that we never fully understood

When Vito Rizzutto tried to explain it to Sal Vitale he was saying that there was no one single boss that they were all considred equals and divided all the spoils up equally amoung 7 of them.

Maybe Buffalo evolved thats what LE and the Reporters just said so don't take my word on it, if LE says it and its in the paper we cant dispute it
???

Correct
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 02:15 AM

The fact the FBI says Buffalo speaks volumes, proves they make mistakes, proves whats old is new again.

And Ive been saying since 2016 that Buffalo is a horizontal hierarchy who have been influenced by Canadian crime customs for decades, as the individual wheels turned, the machine moved
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 06:55 AM

Before I address the Violi thing, I'd just like to mention something I find really interesting about this thread. If you look at the first few pages of this thread, Rooster says that his information comes from beat cops. In a previous thread he said he didn't know any wiseguys nor did he want to IIRC. Rooster's entire argument is based on the words of beat cops. These beat cops apparently know the entire hierarchy of the crime family. These beat cops know what rackets they're into. These beat cops know whose being made.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You dont think that if a beat cop tells someone that then its probably the truth?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You really dont think law enforcement is keeping tabs on these guys

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

my image is one of reliable sources that arent online or in fbi documents.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Most of my intel comes from cops and just being around different circles, bars, restuarants, etc.



Fast forward a few pages and look at what Rooster is saying. When asked about why his ALLEGED beat cop sources haven't made any busts, he responded with:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

So you dont think that there are corrupt cops in every city in America?

So wait a minute. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that he actually DOES have cops talking to him about the Mafia. That's a huge maybe, and to be honest with you, I don't think he does.
If he does have cops talking to him, what makes these beat cops more reliable or trustworthy than the FBI? What makes them more reliable than longtime Buffalo OC investigative journalists? What makes them more reliable than DAs and federal prosecutors?
Some posters here are attacking the credibility of feds, DAs, and said journalists, but no one is questioning the credibility of Rooster's "beat cops." He acknowledged that some of these beat cops were related to mobsters;
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I talk to people in the know all the time, including cops some who are relatives.

And he acknowledged that Buffalo is a corrupt area, which I know to be true. For the record, the feds have a far, far, far better track record when it comes to Mafia corruption than city cops do. There is absolutely no question about that.
So even if, and that's a big IF, Rooster is telling the truth about his beat cops, are we really going to believe possibly corrupt beat cops over the feds? Especially when cops in Buffalo have not acknowledged the existence of the Buffalo mob in years? And the FBI has explicitly said that the mob in Buffalo (i.e. the Todaro crime family) is dead?

By this point, we know Rooster has conflicting thoughts about law enforcement in Buffalo. He acknowledged the area's corruption, as have many other posters and the DOJ itself has discouraged the corrupt culture of the Buffalo/Niagara Falls area, and has acknowledged that some of his sources are related to crime family members. But, fast forward even more, he gets to a point where he is straight-up dissing law enforcement in general, especially the feds, even though the feds are helluva lot better Mafia fighters than city cops.

This is a post aimed at me:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

So again, keep name calling and grasping at every law officers words and every journalists article so you can try again to get everyone to believe you, which they dont and wont.

So wait... when I link actual, written statements by law enforcement, somehow I'm 'grasping?' But when you hang on to ALLEGED beat cops' words like the bible, that's okay with you? It's important to remember that Rooster has offered nothing which indicates he even speaks to Buffalo cops, let alone that what they're saying is the same as what he's posted.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Nicky, if anyone were to needs guts to do something it would be you and that would be conceding that your reliance on law enforcement and journalists proving they dont exist/are viable fell apart weeks ago.

So my reliance on PROVEN, DOCUMENTED law enforcement somehow has fallen apart, yet Rooster's ALLEGED talks with self-proclaimed corrupt beat cops hasn't?

But then he calls back on his beat cops and says this:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I also believe that my "drunk city cop friends" have some insight into what is going on as far as union corruption and fencing

They apparently have insight, but not enough to make a conviction after over 15 years. And no, Cohen isn't a "Buffalo associate." Ciminelli isn't a "Buffalo associate." The bust you mentioned where you claimed two Rochester soldiers were indicted also never happened.
Rooster's "evidence" consists of him linking an unrelated arrest in Buffalo, like the Cohen arrest, and then trying to connect the dots with the Todaro crime family even though guys like Cohen were never, ever, ever connected with the Todaro crime family. It's not evidence if you have to tell us what the bust/article is missing.

Also, have a look at this little tidbit from Rooster:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Lastly, tell us personally if you have had any communication with anyone in Buffalo that may know about current Family status? You havent. Until a current member flips and says that it doesnt exist, it still does.

How the fuck can a "current member" flip to that the family doesn't exist? If he's a current, active member, and he's flipping, then it obviously means there's something to flip over?
Anyways, let's claim that Rooster's convoluted example makes sense.
This means that the Trafficante crime family is still active, because no "current member" has flipped to say that it hasn't.
Has anyone flipped to say Pittsburgh isn't active?
Milwaukee?
Los Angeles?
Kansas City?
Dallas?
Seattle?
Denver?
I could go on. Watch Rooster try and say "Apples and Oranges" to this, even though he explicitly stated that the only way to tell if a family is defunct is if a member flips and says the family is defunct. Go figure...

Anyways, I continue with his hypocritical comments on law enforcement.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You get in trouble if you claim to know things that law enforcement doesnt know on here

By this point, Rooster seems to be having memory trouble. As in, he is forgetting who told him the information about the Todaro crime family. Just to jog your memory Rooster, you claimed that beat cops told you the hierarchy, rackets and members of the family.

And Rooster claims that I'M the one with an agenda? My agenda has, and still is, strictly evidence. If I've somehow got an agenda because I believe the feds over an internet nobody and an admitted liar (Giacomo), then hey, I guess that's my agenda. But it seems that Rooster's agenda is to claim the family is still active at all costs. Which is why he claims his law enforcement sources are correct, and then later discredits law enforcement as a whole. It's also why he consistently shits on acclaimed reporters, until he manages to find little tidbits in articles which support his story. Acclaimed journalists for the Buffalo News and Niagara Falls Reporter are all wrong, but then Rooster references a chart from Gangsters Inc., an amateurish mafia news website (I enjoy the website, but - like About the Mafia.com - I wouldn't take it over the the feds, prosecutors and the Buffalo News). Where's the double standard?



So, to all the people that have discredited the feds, DAs, and other sources, in order to back up Rooster's story, where's the double standard? Bensonhurst, what makes you think that corrupt beat cops who haven't been able to make a bust are any more reliable than the feds? If you want to discredit the feds, fine, but what would we know without them? 90% of the information online about the Mafia comes from the feds. Wiretaps, busts, surveillances, informants... all the work of the feds. If you want to discredit the feds than you can discredit most of what we know about Buffalo's mob history. We only know about Joe Todaro Jr.'s closeness to Pete Capitano due to the feds, since the feds wiretapped Todaro's restaurant and caught him talking about Gerace and Capitano? That's just one example from this thread. When the feds caught Todaro Jr. talking about Capitano in 1990, that was good enough for you guys, but now when they call Local 210 an "aggressive but clean" union, that isn't enough for you?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 06:55 AM

Some of the quotes from Rooster there came from his 2016 thread.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
The last point I wanted to make was this:

The investigation, said Michael McGarrity of the FBI, "unearthed and dug up the roots of a partnership extending from New York City to Buffalo and Toronto to Montreal, proving once again that Italian organized crime groups have evolved far beyond the neighbourhood cliques of days gone by."

Maybe you are right about that part Nicky and they are not operating like a traditional LCN family.

Maybe they are operating like Canada's version of a LCN family.

The Rizzuto's were like a Drug Cartel/LCN family.

But they had a heirachy in place that we never fully understood

When Vito Rizzutto tried to explain it to Sal Vitale he was saying that there was no one single boss that they were all considred equals and divided all the spoils up equally amoung 7 of them.

Maybe Buffalo evolved thats what LE and the Reporters just said so don't take my word on it, if LE says it and its in the paper we cant dispute it
???

Correct



The FBI does imply Italian OC in Buffalo as well as NY City, Toronto and Montreal has evolved. Evolved is an interesting word. It has the implication of having adapted, developed and grown.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 11:24 AM

Nicky, do you at least believe that the Luppino crime family and Papalia crime family operate crews in Buffalo?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 11:49 AM

Lol.....Nicky, I believe youre on your last legs and are about to be defunct. Gasping for your few last breathes. Youre really struggling
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 12:02 PM

Any questions you have that you have or any statements you need explained or clarified, Ill be happy to address. Unlike you I give people the decency.

Keep using FBI as the source, they only contradict themselves or flat out lie every interview they give on the family.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 12:04 PM

No Nicky needs to try and find minor grammatical errors in my statements to hang on for dear life on this thread. Its like watching a bird with a broken wing try to fly after they fell off a cliff.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 12:05 PM

And nows he best buds with Loscalzo and framed a pic on his profile, what a joke.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 09:12 PM

Giacomo, any idea who was made recently in Buffalo?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 09:50 PM

Bensonhurst, what makes you think that corrupt beat cops who haven't been able to make a bust are any more reliable than the feds? If you want to discredit the feds, fine, but what would we know without them? 90% of the information online about the Mafia comes from the feds. Wiretaps, busts, surveillances, informants... all the work of the feds. If you want to discredit the feds than you can discredit most of what we know about Buffalo's mob history. We only know about Joe Todaro Jr.'s closeness to Pete Capitano due to the feds, since the feds wiretapped Todaro's restaurant and caught him talking about Gerace and Capitano? That's just one example from this thread. When the feds caught Todaro Jr. talking about Capitano in 1990, that was good enough for you guys, but now when they call Local 210 an "aggressive but clean" union, that isn't enough for you?

Nicky, I really haven't gotten involved with all that between you and Rooster,
Because honestly I don't know

I know what I know locally from experience I skimmed through the book that I posted "DI-CARLO" for the recent arrests I have done some internet research not typically my thing not reaaly good at it but I gave it a try.

This is what I have found out-------------------------------------------------------------------------:

The Buffalo crime family, also known as the Magaddino crime family and The Arm,[1] is an Italian American Mafia crime family based in Buffalo, New York, United States. The family operated throughout Western New York, Ontario, Canada and Erie, Pennsylvania.

History:

The Buffalo crime family gained power during the Prohibition era through bootlegging. In 1931, the family boss, Stefano Magaddino, became an original member of The Commission. The family remained strong and relatively united until his leadership was challenged in the 1960s. It then split into factions as they tried to assassinate him; the internal war continued after his death from natural causes on July 19, 1974.[2] The internecine warfare ended in the early 1980s when Joseph Todaro Sr. became the boss.[3] Todaro united the family and retired in 2006, leaving many in law enforcement to believe Leonard Falzone had taken his place.[4] However, others thought he was only acting as the "front boss" for the Todaros and that Joseph Todaro Jr. was the acting boss while his father became the senior statesman for the family.

The Buffalo crime family's main front operation was Laborers' International Union of North America (LIUNA) Local 210. Over the course of the later part of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st, the Buffalo crime family declined in influence. Factors included older members slowly turning away from the organization, younger Italian-Americans showing no interest in its operations, an 11-year federal operation that forced the family out of Local 210 between 1995 and 2006, introduction of the New York Lottery depriving the family of a major revenue source (illegal gambling revenue), and the rise of Joe Todaro Jr.'s legitimate pizzeria business. In a March 2017 feature article The Buffalo News reported "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York," noting that a few widely scattered remnants that are no longer believed to be active or organized remain.[5]

However Matt Gryta, crime reporter for The Buffalo News, points out many believe the Magaddino Crime Family has "expanded into the new millennium through telemarketing, pump and dump stock scams and internet pornography with the “family” expanding its operations nationwide." [6]

In November 2017 the US Justice Department and Canadian newspapers indicate the family is still active. The Toronto Star states that Giuseppe (Joe) and Domenico Violi, who have longstanding ties to the Buffalo Mob, were arrested on narcotics trafficking charges.[7]

These charges indicate a continuation of the long established mafia drug trafficking rectangle from Toronto/Hamilton to Buffalo and Montreal to NYC established by Stefano Magaddino and his cousin Joseph Bonanno.[8] [9] Additionally, Metro News Toronto Edition writes:

“The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.[10] ” The Justice Department’s Eastern New York District said in November 2017 that Canadian law enforcement authorities had arrested various members and associates of the Bonanno, Gambino, and Todaro crime families on charges that include narcotics trafficking.[11] In response to these arrests Canadian journalist Adrian Humphries wrote:

Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph Todaro Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.[1
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 10:10 PM

Nicky;

This is what you maybe looking for:

RCMP and FBI to announce arrests linked to Gambino crime family
The RCMP and FBI have made a string of arrests involving fentanyl trafficking by a long-established Hamilton crime group and the Gambino organized family of New York.
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Tweet




THE CANADIAN PRESS/Fred Chartrand
RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson looks on before the start of the Commons committee on Monday, May 15, 2017, in Ottawa. The RCMP and FBI have made a string of arrests involving fentanyl trafficking; the names of the accused are expected to be announced later today.
By: Staff Torstar News Service Published on Thu Nov 09 2017
MILTON—The RCMP and FBI have made a string of arrests involving fentanyl trafficking by a long-established Hamilton crime group and the Gambino organized family of New York.
Among those arrested are members of the crime networks established by the late Paolo Violi and his father-in-law, the late Giacomo Luppino.
The names of the accused are expected to be announced later today.
The arrests were driven by the work of at least one “wise guy” – or mob member – who turned informer, a source close to the investigation said.
Violi was slain in 1978 in Montreal by men connected to the rival crime family of Nick Rizzuto and his son, Vito.
The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.
The Gambino crime family was once considered the most powerful Mafia family in New York.
In the early 1960s, Giacomo Luppino was considered by Toronto police to be one of the founders of the local governing body of the 'Ndrangheta Mafia group, called La Camera di Controllo or the Crimini.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 10:11 PM

Here are the 9 arrested in Canada:

Charged on Thursday morning were: Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton; Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; Tran Giang Tang, Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 10:21 PM

And Carifagna got hit not too long ago...2016
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 11:19 PM

Do not claim they are a family Bensonhurst you know who will get very upset
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 11:50 PM

Are any of the above known memebers of the Todaro Family?
Besides the Violio's?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/07/18 11:52 PM

Not that I know, but can be considered associates just by default
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Giacomo, any idea who was made recently in Buffalo?


I have heard a few names, all Mike's. Muscarella and his kid who is said to be a prick, Michael is only an associate who got back from Las Vegas in helping Penero Pieri, and Sr is in his seventies, Jr is in his 50's. Frank Grisanti kid, Frank passed away in 2011, was there for the wake. Dopey, who is an associate mid-level dealer between Buffalo and NF, but he is said to be only half Italian. The last guy is from Local 17, Mikey C, who is said to be an earner and favorite of Bifulco, who stabbed someone, collected debt payments, and serves as a go between with legitimate members of the community.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Lol.....Nicky, I believe youre on your last legs and are about to be defunct. Gasping for your few last breathes. Youre really struggling


Great response... Really showed me the light...

How about instead of commenting on how bad my argument is, you can actually reply to it? Just an idea, take it or leave it.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Any questions you have that you have or any statements you need explained or clarified, Ill be happy to address. Unlike you I give people the decency.

Keep using FBI as the source, they only contradict themselves or flat out lie every interview they give on the family.


You give people the decency? Wtf...
Your first post here was calling me delusional. On the second page, you called me "full of crap," even though I hadn't done anything that wasn't sourced.

I'll keep using the FBI as my source, because without them we wouldn't know diddly squat about the Mafia. Don't act like that isn't true. Respond to my post if you think I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
No Nicky needs to try and find minor grammatical errors in my statements to hang on for dear life on this thread. Its like watching a bird with a broken wing try to fly after they fell off a cliff.

Minor grammatical errors? RESPOND TO MY POST. They're not minor grammatical errors, they're statements by YOU about law enforcement. Am I wrong?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
And nows he best buds with Loscalzo and framed a pic on his profile, what a joke.


You've responded to my change in profile pictures, but you haven't responded to my post... What a joke...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 05:53 AM

By the way, regarding the Violi, thing:

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The FBI and RCMP always have joint operations on international peoples and would want to know because he is part of the Buffalo Family and is 60 miles from our border and would want him identified in their files, thats why. Logic.


Wait. What evidence is there that he is a part of the Buffalo family?

Nickle:
"""Looks like the mafia activity in Canada has US partnerships in NY City and where else?

Oh yeah, there it is: BUFFALO! 😂 😆 😝 LoL!

I’d say the FBI knew about Violi in March 2017 when it told the Buffalo News the Todaro Crime Family was dead, Todaro retired, and just a couple old timers left. That goes to a point I made in a previous post on this thread... sometimes they give the papers misinformation; either that at they are inept.""""
They're not inept. The Todaro crime family is not active. Violi doesn't change that.
Just because there is Mafia activity in Tampa (per the Gambinos) does not mean the Trafficante crime family is still active.
Just because there is Mafia activity in Cleveland (per Gotti's son-in-law) does not mean the Cleveland crime family is still active.
Just because there is a shit-ton of Mafia activity in Costa Rica (all of the Five Families) does not mean there is a Costa Rica crime family.
Just because there is Mafia activity in Los Angeles (per Montemarano and others) does not mean the LA family is still active.
Just because there is Mafia activity in Buffalo (per the Violi clan) does not mean the Todaro crime family is still active.
You notice a pattern?
This is not "apples and oranges." The Genoveses have operations in Springfield. That does not make them Patriarcas. The Colombo family's operations in South Florida does not make them Trafficantes either.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

His response will now be that they mean Buffalo as a city used as transport or a hub for other crime families and that the statement doesnt mean or have anything to do with the Buffalo family

Correct. You're finally catching on, Rooster. You can predict my answers pretty good, but you're not exactly adept at responding to them....

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

He will say that the FBI now means that Buffalo simply is a title only and it refers to an era gone by and only means that the people involved were once under the guise of Buffalo.

Nicky?


The FBI has not said the Buffalo crime family is still active. Only that Violi has operations there. Which means that they have not mentioned Buffalo "simply is a title only" - it is a city. they did not name the crime family. Jesus Christ, it's like you're in sixth grade Rooster.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

The FBI had been working with the RCMP for how long? Well over a year.

And the FBI in Buffalo didn't know about Violi?

Umm... Uhh... Ohh.... Umm... Maybe the FBI field office in NY City forgot to tell the Buffalo Field office.... confused lol LOL!!!


So we've established the FBI knew about the Violis. Good. At the same time they're denying the existence of the Buffalo mafia.
What does this mean? There are two options:
1. The Violis are not a part of the Buffalo crime family. They have branches in the city, however, as they do all over Canada and New York.
2. The FBI are conducting a grand conspiracy to deny the existence of the Buffalo mafia, which would go completely against their best interests. However, they forgot about the grand conspiracy when the mentioned the Violis.

So, either the Violis aren't a part of Buffalo (which would make a whole lot of sense), or the FBI are not only covering up the existence of a crime family, but they are also woefully inept at it. Take your pick.

Nickle, come back to reality.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I think Nicky has gone on a much needed vacation to Siesta Key


Originally Posted by BensonHURST

The last point I wanted to make was this:

The investigation, said Michael McGarrity of the FBI, "unearthed and dug up the roots of a partnership extending from New York City to Buffalo and Toronto to Montreal, proving once again that Italian organized crime groups have evolved far beyond the neighbourhood cliques of days gone by."

Maybe you are right about that part Nicky and they are not operating like a traditional LCN family.

Maybe they are operating like Canada's version of a LCN family.

The Rizzuto's were like a Drug Cartel/LCN family.

But they had a heirachy in place that we never fully understood

When Vito Rizzutto tried to explain it to Sal Vitale he was saying that there was no one single boss that they were all considred equals and divided all the spoils up equally amoung 7 of them.

Maybe Buffalo evolved thats what LE and the Reporters just said so don't take my word on it, if LE says it and its in the paper we cant dispute it
???

Correct

Just because the feds don't understand an exact hierarchy does not mean they won't label it an active crime family. That's why that theory doesn't work.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

The fact the FBI says Buffalo speaks volumes, proves they make mistakes, proves whats old is new again.

And Ive been saying since 2016 that Buffalo is a horizontal hierarchy who have been influenced by Canadian crime customs for decades, as the individual wheels turned, the machine moved

And yet you still haven't been proven right... Go figure...
Just because the Violi clan has operations in Buffalo does not mean they are a) a part of the Todaro crime family, or b) the Todaro crime family still exists. I just thought I'd add that in again.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Nicky, do you at least believe that the Luppino crime family and Papalia crime family operate crews in Buffalo?

Luppinos maybe, but I haven't seen anything which says the Papalia crime family survived post-1997.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Nicky, I really haven't gotten involved with all that between you and Rooster,
Because honestly I don't know

Bensonhurst... you confuse me...
You've been very quick to discredit the FBI, and offer theories that back up Rooster's narrative. but when Rooster's alleged sources are called into question you claim to not wanting to get involved.

You've hammered home at my on-record, sourced, linked, proven statements from LE and more, but now you're deciding not to even TOUCH Rooster's uncorrorborated, off-the-record, imaginary sources?

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Nicky;

This is what you maybe looking for:

RCMP and FBI to announce arrests linked to Gambino crime family
The RCMP and FBI have made a string of arrests involving fentanyl trafficking by a long-established Hamilton crime group and the Gambino organized family of New York.
Share on Facebook
Tweet




THE CANADIAN PRESS/Fred Chartrand
RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson looks on before the start of the Commons committee on Monday, May 15, 2017, in Ottawa. The RCMP and FBI have made a string of arrests involving fentanyl trafficking; the names of the accused are expected to be announced later today.
By: Staff Torstar News Service Published on Thu Nov 09 2017
MILTON—The RCMP and FBI have made a string of arrests involving fentanyl trafficking by a long-established Hamilton crime group and the Gambino organized family of New York.
Among those arrested are members of the crime networks established by the late Paolo Violi and his father-in-law, the late Giacomo Luppino.
The names of the accused are expected to be announced later today.
The arrests were driven by the work of at least one “wise guy” – or mob member – who turned informer, a source close to the investigation said.
Violi was slain in 1978 in Montreal by men connected to the rival crime family of Nick Rizzuto and his son, Vito.
The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.
The Gambino crime family was once considered the most powerful Mafia family in New York.
In the early 1960s, Giacomo Luppino was considered by Toronto police to be one of the founders of the local governing body of the 'Ndrangheta Mafia group, called La Camera di Controllo or the Crimini.


Bensonhurst? Does anywhere in that article say that the Violis are Buffalo crime family members?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Do not claim they are a family Bensonhurst you know who will get very upset


Good one Rooster, you're comedy is wasted on this thread. Now are you going to respond to my post tearing about your imaginary beat cops, or are you going to keep making wisecracks?

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Giacomo, any idea who was made recently in Buffalo?


I have heard a few names, all Mike's. Muscarella and his kid who is said to be a prick, Michael is only an associate who got back from Las Vegas in helping Penero Pieri, and Sr is in his seventies, Jr is in his 50's. Frank Grisanti kid, Frank passed away in 2011, was there for the wake. Dopey, who is an associate mid-level dealer between Buffalo and NF, but he is said to be only half Italian. The last guy is from Local 17, Mikey C, who is said to be an earner and favorite of Bifulco, who stabbed someone, collected debt payments, and serves as a go between with legitimate members of the community.



Tell us all about Tony Mirra's hit list, Giacomo.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 05:56 AM

I'm assuming Rooster's first response will be along the lines of:
"Guys, Nicky's getting real mad over here, hehe"
But maybe you could skip that one for now, Roost.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 08:07 AM

Tony Mirra's hit list:

David Bowie- Ashes to Ashes
STYX- Renegade
Queen- Another One Bites the Dust
Jim Croce- Bad Bad Leroy Brown
Kansas- Dust in the Wind
Led Zeppelin- Gallows Pole
Elton John- Someone Saved my Life Tonight
Bruce Springsteen- Born to Run
Frank Sinatra- Did It My Way
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 11:03 AM

As soon as you answer my question Nicky, youre not the Sheriff

And my comedy isnt wasted, because its not comedy, its reality
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 11:08 AM

Your new name is Loscalzo btw....

Loscalzo, do you know anything about Tampa other than from Scott?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 11:39 AM

Giacomo....is that Paul Grisanti?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 01:36 PM

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdny/pr/third-local-17-member-sentenced-extortion

Union corruption alive and well in Western NY
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 02:38 PM

Giacomo;

So who are you saying is Admin?

Any truth to my speculation about the power base shifting to Canada?
?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 03:53 PM

Nicky;

Bensonhurst... you confuse me...
You've been very quick to discredit the FBI,

I think what you are referring to is me saying that LE and Reporters not getting the story 100% correct.

Yes I do believe that. Not only do I believe I know for a fact that is the case.

However, it appears that the law of the land on Gangster.BB.Net is that you need to have one or the other for support you statement???

Pretty Much?
Correct?

Again was totally I see the logic behind it..
Because we need something to hang our hat one even if not 100% accurate more times than not there usually is some truth to what they are saying...

Again Nicky, in my OPINION there usually is some truth to their version of the story.
There has been times where they have been flat out wrong.....

I.E. Hoffa
I.E. Bonanno's

To name a couple.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 04:09 PM

when Rooster's alleged sources are called into question you claim to not wanting to get involved.

Nicky, what I was saying is that:

You and Rooster were talking about facts that I knew nothing about.
(History of the local 210)

I was just saying: I do not know anything about what you guys are talking about.
As I explained:

I have NO first hand and NO second hand knowledge of Buffalo

Until I joined this forum, I than read the book DICARLO and was amazed to find out how powerful the family was...

After seeing how you some of guys are able to piece all your info together kind of like mini-researcher's I think it is really cool.

I started to try that myself and was able to find a handful of articles from Canada

I simply posted my opinion based on the research that I have done.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 04:56 PM

Canda

The FBI either did not care or knew nothing about or both in regards to the Bonnano's in Canada

Meanwhile the Bonanno Crew was so powerful they separated from the family pretty much and ran the whole Country, had a global reach.

So when the FBI, dismantled the Bonanno squad because they "THOUGHT THEY WERE DEAD" not only was

Massino able to rebuild to take over as the head of the COMMISION...

At about that same time the Bonnano Crew took over the whole CANADA.

Besides VITO RIZZUTTO and the 2017 indictments, there has NOT been one indictment linking the Bonnano's in Canada and in the U.S.

That is a major gateway that has existing for 60 years and the "FBI has UNCOVERED that the pipeline still exists"

So they though was "DEAD" they have UNCOVERED STILL EXISTS AND IS INTACT.


AGAIN WHAT THE FBI THOUGHT WAS DEAD, they have UNCOVERED STILL EXISTS AND INTACT?
Nicky, existed 60 years ago?

Was it the DEFUNCT MAGGIDINO CRIME FAMILY?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 04:58 PM

You are pointing to the article and saying well they are not listing exact rank and file it is vague

With the Bonanno's they are saying this guy is a Capo, this guy is made

But...... They have NO INTEL

WHY???

Because they have expended NO RESOURCES on them.

You have to admit that NICKY,

Why would they expend resources on a family they thought had NO RACKETS LEFT.

They have "UNCOVERED" some new FACTS, and this is PROOF that the FAMILIES including (TODARO) who they ONCE THOUGHT WERE NEIGHBORHOOD CLIQUE's

Have ONCE AGAIN EVOLVED.
ONCE AGAIN WHEH THEY THOUGHT SOMETHING WAS DEAD

it was NOT
And the families have EVOLVED.

Who? The Todaro's, the members and associates of the TODARO CRIME FAMILY.

Who else are they talking abou the FBI?

Nicky,

Who else in that indictment did they think was just a neighborhhod clique?

Who else has evolved?

They know about Bonnao's already?

They know about the Rizzuto's already?

They know the Rizzuto's are global already...

Noithing to uncover with them.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
As soon as you answer my question Nicky, youre not the Sheriff

And my comedy isnt wasted, because its not comedy, its reality


Jesus Christ... What question haven't I answered? And did you ask that question BEFORE or AFTER I sent the earlier response I'm asking you to reply to...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Your new name is Loscalzo btw....

Loscalzo, do you know anything about Tampa other than from Scott?


Yep. Do you know anything about Buffalo other than the inner reaches of your imagination?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 06:57 PM

Tell us what you know about Tampa that isnt published, thats my question
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster


It's pretty obvious that you have nothing to gain out of posting such ridiculous, unrelated links. I'm just going to point out how of course union corruption still exists, but there is no Buffalo mob behind it, and that's that. I think what you're trying to do by posting these unrelated links is to act like you have a sense of credibility. So when newcomers to this thread look at your posts, they'll say "Wow, this guy has really sourced his stuff."

Union corruption will always be a thing. Whether or not the mob is active doesn't change that.

Public Service Announcement: Rooster has posted nothing credible that indicates the Buffalo mob is still active. He has proven the Buffalo mob was into drugs in 1990 (which I never denied), he has linked a Rochester mob boss denying being in the Mafia (which is the most laughable and stupid thing I've ever witnessed), and he's referenced amateur news blogs as if they deserve more credibility over feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, and news reporters.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:05 PM

We all know losing sucks, you just cant handle it like normal. Little babies dont cry as much as you do. Its ok Loscalzo, your mommy will have your bottle ready when you get home.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:08 PM

its ok, Coppola will come out with another article soon littered with contradictions and you can send him a letter about how much he meant to you during your thread contribution
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Tell us what you know about Tampa that isnt published, thats my question


Why? I could say the Iavarone Bros. are a lot more active than people think, but I wouldn't expect or care if anyone believed me because I know that, without reference, my words alone are no good. If people want to believe someone without any sources or references, they are fucking idiots. I mean that with every fiber of my being.
Do I expect anyone to believe me? No. Are you "delusional" if you don't believe me? No. Are you "full of crap" if you don't believe me? No. Unlike Rooster, I accept that if I give facts that aren't sourced, people probably should take it with a grain of salt.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Giacomo....is that Paul Grisanti?


No. I have not been in the area for a while.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Giacomo;

So who are you saying is Admin?

Any truth to my speculation about the power base shifting to Canada?
?



Frank Bifulco and Victor Sansanese. Right now I am saying the family has no Underboss, like how San Jose was when Figlia took over for Marino when he died up to 1995 when Figlia disbanded the family. The Luppinos have always been a powerhouse, Papalia's never recovered, but since the Rizzuto and some of the Toronto groups have been having trouble this past decade, the Papalia have been slowly making moves, but not waves. As I stated before, if a member from Canada is in the administration position, it would be Dom Violi, Natale Luppino, or Bruno Monaco.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:17 PM

Nice, youre learning. So basically youre saying you know something about Tampa but really know nothing because you realize no one will believe you, right?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:19 PM

Thanks for defining the admin Giacomo
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:20 PM

Again Nicky, now we go back to weeks ago. You dont have to believe me or anyone else, but if other people choose to you dont have to get mad and pout like youve done many, many times. Just accept it. So again, are you ready to agree to disagree or just keep going? Whatever is fine with me.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
We all know losing sucks, you just cant handle it like normal. Little babies dont cry as much as you do. Its ok Loscalzo, your mommy will have your bottle ready when you get home.


What exactly does this accomplish? Keep ignoring my post if it makes you feel better. Talk to your imaginary beat cops to brag about how you schooled some guys on a mafia forum.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Again Nicky, now we go back to weeks ago. You dont have to believe me or anyone else, but if other people choose to you dont have to get mad and pout like youve done many, many times. Just accept it. So again, are you ready to agree to disagree or just keep going? Whatever is fine with me.


You should start telling people that the earth is flat, see what happens next.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:24 PM

Its ok if you dont believe me....now what Loscalzo? Just keep foaming at the mouth and you pretending that your contradictory FBI articles are Gospel? Nah, I think a few of us arent falling for that. If you want to solely believe law enforcement though thats fine.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nice, youre learning. So basically youre saying you know something about Tampa but really know nothing because you realize no one will believe you, right?



Well... no....
Read my post again...
This is basic English. Did I use words that were too big for you?
I never said I didn't know anything about Tampa. I said that what I do know isn't sourced or referenced, so I wouldn't expect anyone to believe me. Just read through my posts carefully next time, and use the dictionary for any big words you get stuck on.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:25 PM

Its not though, and if there was some evidence it was or possibly is I would hear the argument them make my decision to tell others about it as I deem appropriate.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Its ok if you dont believe me....now what Loscalzo? Just keep foaming at the mouth and you pretending that your contradictory FBI articles are Gospel? Nah, I think a few of us arent falling for that. If you want to solely believe law enforcement though thats fine.


I thought the bulk of your sources were "solely law enforcement?" What happened to that?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:26 PM

Ive said many times its not just law enforcement, please reread posts if youre confused
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:26 PM

I try to stay away from threads like this and people like 'The_Rooster" is. But i gotta wonder is there an admin here?


This thread is total nonsense,this guy keeps spamming 5 posts in a row,talking complete bullshit,without any proof or anything. We had "mafia insiders" all the time,but this guy just beats them all.

@NickyfromTampa: Really appreciate you trying to talk some sense into this guy,but its pointless.Just give it up,i am hoping admin will take care of this guy.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Before I address the Violi thing, I'd just like to mention something I find really interesting about this thread. If you look at the first few pages of this thread, Rooster says that his information comes from beat cops. In a previous thread he said he didn't know any wiseguys nor did he want to IIRC. Rooster's entire argument is based on the words of beat cops. These beat cops apparently know the entire hierarchy of the crime family. These beat cops know what rackets they're into. These beat cops know whose being made.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You dont think that if a beat cop tells someone that then its probably the truth?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You really dont think law enforcement is keeping tabs on these guys

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

my image is one of reliable sources that arent online or in fbi documents.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Most of my intel comes from cops and just being around different circles, bars, restuarants, etc.



Fast forward a few pages and look at what Rooster is saying. When asked about why his ALLEGED beat cop sources haven't made any busts, he responded with:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

So you dont think that there are corrupt cops in every city in America?

So wait a minute. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that he actually DOES have cops talking to him about the Mafia. That's a huge maybe, and to be honest with you, I don't think he does.
If he does have cops talking to him, what makes these beat cops more reliable or trustworthy than the FBI? What makes them more reliable than longtime Buffalo OC investigative journalists? What makes them more reliable than DAs and federal prosecutors?
Some posters here are attacking the credibility of feds, DAs, and said journalists, but no one is questioning the credibility of Rooster's "beat cops." He acknowledged that some of these beat cops were related to mobsters;
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I talk to people in the know all the time, including cops some who are relatives.

And he acknowledged that Buffalo is a corrupt area, which I know to be true. For the record, the feds have a far, far, far better track record when it comes to Mafia corruption than city cops do. There is absolutely no question about that.
So even if, and that's a big IF, Rooster is telling the truth about his beat cops, are we really going to believe possibly corrupt beat cops over the feds? Especially when cops in Buffalo have not acknowledged the existence of the Buffalo mob in years? And the FBI has explicitly said that the mob in Buffalo (i.e. the Todaro crime family) is dead?

By this point, we know Rooster has conflicting thoughts about law enforcement in Buffalo. He acknowledged the area's corruption, as have many other posters and the DOJ itself has discouraged the corrupt culture of the Buffalo/Niagara Falls area, and has acknowledged that some of his sources are related to crime family members. But, fast forward even more, he gets to a point where he is straight-up dissing law enforcement in general, especially the feds, even though the feds are helluva lot better Mafia fighters than city cops.

This is a post aimed at me:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

So again, keep name calling and grasping at every law officers words and every journalists article so you can try again to get everyone to believe you, which they dont and wont.

So wait... when I link actual, written statements by law enforcement, somehow I'm 'grasping?' But when you hang on to ALLEGED beat cops' words like the bible, that's okay with you? It's important to remember that Rooster has offered nothing which indicates he even speaks to Buffalo cops, let alone that what they're saying is the same as what he's posted.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Nicky, if anyone were to needs guts to do something it would be you and that would be conceding that your reliance on law enforcement and journalists proving they dont exist/are viable fell apart weeks ago.

So my reliance on PROVEN, DOCUMENTED law enforcement somehow has fallen apart, yet Rooster's ALLEGED talks with self-proclaimed corrupt beat cops hasn't?

But then he calls back on his beat cops and says this:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I also believe that my "drunk city cop friends" have some insight into what is going on as far as union corruption and fencing

They apparently have insight, but not enough to make a conviction after over 15 years. And no, Cohen isn't a "Buffalo associate." Ciminelli isn't a "Buffalo associate." The bust you mentioned where you claimed two Rochester soldiers were indicted also never happened.
Rooster's "evidence" consists of him linking an unrelated arrest in Buffalo, like the Cohen arrest, and then trying to connect the dots with the Todaro crime family even though guys like Cohen were never, ever, ever connected with the Todaro crime family. It's not evidence if you have to tell us what the bust/article is missing.

Also, have a look at this little tidbit from Rooster:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Lastly, tell us personally if you have had any communication with anyone in Buffalo that may know about current Family status? You havent. Until a current member flips and says that it doesnt exist, it still does.

How the fuck can a "current member" flip to that the family doesn't exist? If he's a current, active member, and he's flipping, then it obviously means there's something to flip over?
Anyways, let's claim that Rooster's convoluted example makes sense.
This means that the Trafficante crime family is still active, because no "current member" has flipped to say that it hasn't.
Has anyone flipped to say Pittsburgh isn't active?
Milwaukee?
Los Angeles?
Kansas City?
Dallas?
Seattle?
Denver?
I could go on. Watch Rooster try and say "Apples and Oranges" to this, even though he explicitly stated that the only way to tell if a family is defunct is if a member flips and says the family is defunct. Go figure...

Anyways, I continue with his hypocritical comments on law enforcement.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You get in trouble if you claim to know things that law enforcement doesnt know on here

By this point, Rooster seems to be having memory trouble. As in, he is forgetting who told him the information about the Todaro crime family. Just to jog your memory Rooster, you claimed that beat cops told you the hierarchy, rackets and members of the family.

And Rooster claims that I'M the one with an agenda? My agenda has, and still is, strictly evidence. If I've somehow got an agenda because I believe the feds over an internet nobody and an admitted liar (Giacomo), then hey, I guess that's my agenda. But it seems that Rooster's agenda is to claim the family is still active at all costs. Which is why he claims his law enforcement sources are correct, and then later discredits law enforcement as a whole. It's also why he consistently shits on acclaimed reporters, until he manages to find little tidbits in articles which support his story. Acclaimed journalists for the Buffalo News and Niagara Falls Reporter are all wrong, but then Rooster references a chart from Gangsters Inc., an amateurish mafia news website (I enjoy the website, but - like About the Mafia.com - I wouldn't take it over the the feds, prosecutors and the Buffalo News). Where's the double standard?



So, to all the people that have discredited the feds, DAs, and other sources, in order to back up Rooster's story, where's the double standard? Bensonhurst, what makes you think that corrupt beat cops who haven't been able to make a bust are any more reliable than the feds? If you want to discredit the feds, fine, but what would we know without them? 90% of the information online about the Mafia comes from the feds. Wiretaps, busts, surveillances, informants... all the work of the feds. If you want to discredit the feds than you can discredit most of what we know about Buffalo's mob history. We only know about Joe Todaro Jr.'s closeness to Pete Capitano due to the feds, since the feds wiretapped Todaro's restaurant and caught him talking about Gerace and Capitano? That's just one example from this thread. When the feds caught Todaro Jr. talking about Capitano in 1990, that was good enough for you guys, but now when they call Local 210 an "aggressive but clean" union, that isn't enough for you?



By the way Roost, here's the post I'd like you to respond to.
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:26 PM

I try to stay away from threads like this and people like 'The_Rooster" is. But i gotta wonder is there an admin here?


This thread is total nonsense,this guy keeps spamming 5 posts in a row,talking complete bullshit,without any proof or anything. We had "mafia insiders" all the time,but this guy just beats them all.

@NickyfromTampa: Really appreciate you trying to talk some sense into this guy,but its pointless.Just give it up,i am hoping admin will take care of this guy.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Ive said many times its not just law enforcement, please reread posts if youre confused


Beat cops are law enforcement. Even corrupt ones.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Strax
I try to stay away from threads like this and people like 'The_Rooster" is. But i gotta wonder is there an admin here?


This thread is total nonsense,this guy keeps spamming 5 posts in a row,talking complete bullshit,without any proof or anything. We had "mafia insiders" all the time,but this guy just beats them all.

@NickyfromTampa: Really appreciate you trying to talk some sense into this guy,but its pointless.Just give it up,i am hoping admin will take care of this guy.



Me too. I guess you're right, there is no hope for this guy or anyone who believes him.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:29 PM

Like I said over and over, if you dont believe me thats fine, I dont have articles to show you validating my stories. But the point is you cant agree to disagree. Ive answered all your questions and yet you still have a hard on to prove the family isnt active. Im not going to concede anything.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:30 PM

Yes , i know beat cops are law enforcement. I said they werent my only sources, not that they werent law enforcement.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:31 PM

As Straxx questions my credibility, he wonders if there is an administration...interesting.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:32 PM

Its not about talking sense into me, I understand your articles and assumptions would lead you to believe there is no viable family but I disagree. Now what? We reached that conclusion weeks ago.
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:34 PM

And again you spam 3 posts in a row. Man its ok,i believe you, you have inside info,sources in police too and u decide to post about it on an online forum.

You convinced me,thanks for opening my eyes.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:48 PM

Spam? Im posting on the thread where and while everyone is having a discussion. Im not trying to convince anyone, just giving my opinion based on what I hear and believe. Why is that so hard of a concept.
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:54 PM

There is a reason why "Edit" button exists,you don't need to spam 5 posts in a row,this thread is 26 pages...
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 07:55 PM

Ok fair enough
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 08:14 PM

Giacomo;

How many Buffalo crews are in Canda was it just Papalia's old crew

Do you know big the crew was and is today?

Papilia was a Capo correct?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Strax
I try to stay away from threads like this and people like 'The_Rooster" is. But i gotta wonder is there an admin here?


This thread is total nonsense,this guy keeps spamming 5 posts in a row,talking complete bullshit,withoutl any proof or anything. We had "mafia insiders" all the time,but this guy just beats them all.

@NickyfromTampa: Really appreciate you trying to talk some sense into this guy,but its pointless.Just give it up,i am hoping admin will take care of this guy.


At Strax, this thread is nonsense?

I followed it! It made sense to me. I appreciate Nicky’s argument. I thought this was a good discussion. So I guess I’m a little befuddled.. Maybe the reason you think this thread is nonsense is because there are at least 4 other individuals beside Rooster that see the logic of the other side?

So tell me how was I nonsensical?

You know if you study epistemology you learn that there all kinds of logic, argumentation, end even types of knowing. Knowledge isn’t just found newspaper articles. But I do agree some knowledge can and is found there, just not all knowledge ...it is just one way of knowing.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 09:01 PM

Well said Nickle
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 09:23 PM

I agree they need to lay off some of the hostility, but other than that it's a decent back and forth argument, if you don't like it your not forced to look at this thread so whats the problem here? Stop being one sided and trying to get people banned or something when it's not warranted. @strax
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 09:28 PM

Many people state that Buffalo is still a viable thing. I might understand that there could be one, maybe 2 buffalo fanatics talking nonsense. But for 5 people to be all saying the same thing? While it may be difficult to believe random internet posters, there is a major concensus here. Buffalo and the Niagara region in general is Corrupt with a capital C. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff and people in this area. But if you want to believe self proclaimed "mob experts" and retired police that have been retired in Florida with their head up their ass, go ahead.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Moscone65
I agree they need to lay off some of the hostility, but other than that it's a decent back and forth argument, if you don't like it your not forced to look at this thread so whats the problem here? Stop being one sided and trying to get people banned or something when it's not warranted. @strax


Thanks Moscone... honestly I think part of the reason this thread has been this active for this long is due to the fact that those who believe the Buffalo family is active are tired of being made out to be fanatical nubs who suck their thumbs and know nothing. It is, truly off putting! I know I am tired of it!
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 10:17 PM

No problem nickle, I remember you from another mob site that I frequent and i know that you make good points and offer valuable insight.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Giacomo;

How many Buffalo crews are in Canda was it just Papalia's old crew

Do you know big the crew was and is today?

Papilia was a Capo correct?


History wise, Buffalo had 4 crews. One crew split from Buffalo sometime in early or mid 1950's between Detroit's Windsor group and the Marci family in Toronto. This led Paul Volpe as the only Capo in Toronto for Buffalo. Giacomo Luppino was a long time Capo for Buffalo. Johnny Papalia did not become a Capo until the early 1960's as Magaddino decided that he needed another crew to help out with the Hamilton and NF area.

Today there are two Buffalo crews in Canada, Papalia crew which has 5 known made members and 25 to 40 associates, Rocco Papalia still remains in contact with Buccinasco, and Plati. The Luppino crew which has over 8 made members, and 70 to 90 associates. Not much has changed with the Luppino crew to day, but the Papalia crew had a full crew with around 150 associates in its heyday.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/08/18 10:48 PM

Giacomo, do you know any membership estimates on the Musitano's? I saw a chart in them once that was pretty rare but it wasn't clear who was made and who was an associate.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 12:36 AM

Musitanos are at the same estimates as the Papalia crew.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:16 AM


Giacoomo;

So Detroit LCN has a Canada crew as well.

Interesting.....

That crew used to be with Buffalo??


The Luppino crew which has over 8 made members, and 70 to 90 associates. Not much has changed with the Luppino crew to day, but the Papalia crew had a full crew with around 150 associates in its heyday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So 13 made Memebers over 200 associates ?

I didn't know Luppino was with Buffalo

So the Buffalo crews are intact
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Giacoomo;

So Detroit LCN has a Canada crew as well.

Interesting.....

That crew used to be with Buffalo??


The Luppino crew which has over 8 made members, and 70 to 90 associates. Not much has changed with the Luppino crew to day, but the Papalia crew had a full crew with around 150 associates in its heyday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So 13 made Memebers over 200 associates ?

I didn't know Luppino was with Buffalo

So the Buffalo crews are intact








According to Canadian papers Dominic Violi is the heir apparent of the Luppino Family. If he is, truly, part of the Todaro Family it is likely his family is with Buffalo—or if Power has shifted, Buffalo crews are with his family.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Spam? Im posting on the thread where and while everyone is having a discussion. Im not trying to convince anyone, just giving my opinion based on what I hear and believe. Why is that so hard of a concept.


You're not trying to convince anyone? Wtf? Please tell me you're joking.

Originally Posted by Moscone65
Many people state that Buffalo is still a viable thing. I might understand that there could be one, maybe 2 buffalo fanatics talking nonsense. But for 5 people to be all saying the same thing? While it may be difficult to believe random internet posters, there is a major concensus here. Buffalo and the Niagara region in general is Corrupt with a capital C. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff and people in this area. But if you want to believe self proclaimed "mob experts" and retired police that have been retired in Florida with their head up their ass, go ahead.


Nickle believes the government is working WITH the Buffalo mob and that's why they're not being busted. Rooster hasn't offered an explanation into why the feds have alleged lied about their exist, other than making vague references to an "agenda" they might have. Giacomo can't be taken seriously at all, for obvious reasons. Who are the other three posters?

And no, there is not a major consensus that the Buffalo family is still active. Evidence has proven that wrong.
People who believe it exists:
5 Internet nobodies, one of whom has been caught lying over and over again.
Imaginary Beat Cops

People who DON'T believe it exists:
The Federal Government.
Buffalo law enforcement.
Federal prosecutors
District Attorneys
Ron Fino
Scott Deitche
All prominent organized crime journalists from Western New York.
Numerous posters on this forum.


So Moscone, tell me how Rooster is leading a major consensus here?
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Giacoomo;

So Detroit LCN has a Canada crew as well.

Interesting.....

That crew used to be with Buffalo??


The Luppino crew which has over 8 made members, and 70 to 90 associates. Not much has changed with the Luppino crew to day, but the Papalia crew had a full crew with around 150 associates in its heyday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So 13 made Memebers over 200 associates ?

I didn't know Luppino was with Buffalo

So the Buffalo crews are intact








13 made members, and 100 to 130 associates today. 150 was back in the Papalia heyday. Which combined, would be 22 to 25 made members, and 250 to 300 associates at both of their peaks.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Giacoomo;

So Detroit LCN has a Canada crew as well.

Interesting.....

That crew used to be with Buffalo??


The Luppino crew which has over 8 made members, and 70 to 90 associates. Not much has changed with the Luppino crew to day, but the Papalia crew had a full crew with around 150 associates in its heyday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So 13 made Memebers over 200 associates ?

I didn't know Luppino was with Buffalo

So the Buffalo crews are intact








According to Canadian papers Dominic Violi is the heir apparent of the Luppino Family. If he is, truly, part of the Todaro Family it is likely his family is with Buffalo—or if Power has shifted, Buffalo crews are with his family.


I'm glad you're not trying to claim that Dominic Violi is a Buffalo underboss, or even a made guy. There's no evidence the Luppino family or the Violi clan (if they are one and the same) is a part of the Buffalo crime family.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Spam? Im posting on the thread where and while everyone is having a discussion. Im not trying to convince anyone, just giving my opinion based on what I hear and believe. Why is that so hard of a concept.


You're not trying to convince anyone? Wtf? Please tell me you're joking.

Originally Posted by Moscone65
Many people state that Buffalo is still a viable thing. I might understand that there could be one, maybe 2 buffalo fanatics talking nonsense. But for 5 people to be all saying the same thing? While it may be difficult to believe random internet posters, there is a major concensus here. Buffalo and the Niagara region in general is Corrupt with a capital C. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff and people in this area. But if you want to believe self proclaimed "mob experts" and retired police that have been retired in Florida with their head up their ass, go ahead.


Nickle believes the government is working WITH the Buffalo mob and that's why they're not being busted. Rooster hasn't offered an explanation into why the feds have alleged lied about their exist, other than making vague references to an "agenda" they might have. Giacomo can't be taken seriously at all, for obvious reasons. Who are the other three posters?

And no, there is not a major consensus that the Buffalo family is still active. Evidence has proven that wrong.
People who believe it exists:
5 Internet nobodies, one of whom has been caught lying over and over again.
Imaginary Beat Cops

People who DON'T believe it exists:
The Federal Government.
Buffalo law enforcement.
Federal prosecutors
District Attorneys
Ron Fino
Scott Deitche
All prominent organized crime journalists from Western New York.
Numerous posters on this forum.


So Moscone, tell me how Rooster is leading a major consensus here?


You misrepresent me Nicky... I pointed to a lawer in Buffalo who believes the FBI in Buffalo was in bed with Cosa Nostra in the Nickel City, and continues to be. I was simply positing that things may not be as simple and straight forward as you so forcefully argue. This misunderstanding on your part only serves to verify another reason why one can’t always believe what he or she reads. People often misunderstand and then misrepresent what was said ...or do not get the intended meaning. My whole point is things are never as simple as they seem—therefore it is hard for me to believe someone when the difinitevely say the Buffalo Crime Family is dead. This gets into the study of epistemology-the study of what we know and how we know it. I’m sorry you misunderstood my logic. Do you get what I’m saying? I am not a stupid nub- because I think there is a strong possibility the Buffalo Family is alive and active. Of course I would never say I know that I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I know there is so much that I don’t know. But given the knowledge I do have chances are it is very much alive and active. I just want you to admit you don’t know 100% that it doesn’t exist. It’s your and others’ demeaning dogmatism on this subject that is so offputting.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 02:14 AM

Nicky, again, Im not lying. If you need to think that its on you. It really doesnt mean much to me. Read everyone elses posts on here. Giacomos, Nickles, Bensons....thats the consensus. Just because your spiteful and mad that we dont believe YOU and your sources doesnt mean other people cant. You clearly dont understand how difference of interpretation works. Its ok though, continue to allow this to fester and repeat over and over and over what the government says. It will be ok Nicky, better times are ahead for you and Loscalzo
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 02:16 AM

@ NickleCity....Nicky was the kid in high school that went home and cried if he didnt get picked in dodgeball. Fitting he has to demean everyone that doesnt pick him :,,,,,(
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
I just want you to admit you don’t know 100% that it doesn’t exist. It’s your and others’ demeaning dogmatism on this subject that is so offputting.


Of course. I admit that I can't say with 100% certainty that it doesn't exist. Rooster can't say, with 100% certainty, that it DOES exist, since he himself said he doesn't know any made members and doesn't want to.

But this doesn't mean we can't debate over it. It's a question of validity. The FBI has a far better track record than Rooster. District attorneys have a far better track record than Rooster. Federal prosecutors have a far better track record than Rooster. Scott Deitche has a far better track record than Rooster. Ron Fino doesn't really have a better track record, he likes to embellish stories a lot, but at least we know for a fact that he was, in fact, in that life.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Giacoomo;

So Detroit LCN has a Canada crew as well.

Interesting.....

That crew used to be with Buffalo??


The Luppino crew which has over 8 made members, and 70 to 90 associates. Not much has changed with the Luppino crew to day, but the Papalia crew had a full crew with around 150 associates in its heyday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So 13 made Memebers over 200 associates ?

I didn't know Luppino was with Buffalo

So the Buffalo crews are intact








According to Canadian papers Dominic Violi is the heir apparent of the Luppino Family. If he is, truly, part of the Todaro Family it is likely his family is with Buffalo—or if Power has shifted, Buffalo crews are with his family.


I'm glad you're not trying to claim that Dominic Violi is a Buffalo underboss, or even a made guy. There's no evidence the Luppino family or the Violi clan (if they are one and the same) is a part of the Buffalo crime family.


I do believe Joe and Dominic were made in the Buffalo and Luppino crime families.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 02:29 AM

Lol, no shit they have a better track record. Lol. Doesnt mean they know the full story or dont make mistakes, contradictions, and have their own personal agendas.

Hey everyone, that guy Rooster has a better track record than Preet Bahara and Governor Cuomo.

~ Anonymous
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 02:39 AM

wait..... so this buffalo FACTION of canada has 25 made members and 150 associates? or 100... whatever.
there better then colombos.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by NickleCity
I just want you to admit you don’t know 100% that it doesn’t exist. It’s your and others’ demeaning dogmatism on this subject that is so offputting.


Of course. I admit that I can't say with 100% certainty that it doesn't exist. Rooster can't say, with 100% certainty, that it DOES exist, since he himself said he doesn't know any made members and doesn't want to.

But this doesn't mean we can't debate over it. It's a question of validity. The FBI has a far better track record than Rooster. District attorneys have a far better track record than Rooster. Federal prosecutors have a far better track record than Rooster. Scott Deitche has a far better track record than Rooster. Ron Fino doesn't really have a better track record, he likes to embellish stories a lot, but at least we know for a fact that he was, in fact, in that life.


We can debate and I appreciate the debate. You make valid points, and it is a validity of knowledge (epistemology) question we are really debating-Regarding LCN what is the best way of knowing something is truth. I guess I am more of a postmodern thinker... I challenge authorities, because, in my experience, they haven’t been as much of an authority as they claim. Or, the misuse their authority, therefor their authority can’t be trusted. Of course Ron Fino can’t be fully trusted either! He uses his life to sell books. The papers to sell copy and subsriptions. LE has to sell they are doing their job... and on and on it goes. If you read Matt Gryta’s book The Real Teflon Don he and Karalus are in a pissing match with the FBI over who was really responsible for weekening the Magaddino Family—they paint the FBI as inept and relying on NY State’s Forrest Street Boys who were the precursor to the NY State OC task force my friend served on. The FBI agent from the field office in Buffalo Joe Hriffith wrote a book called Mob Nemesis where he takes the credit for what the Forrest Street Boys claim they were responsible for. Because of all of this, it is my opinion that your credible sources aren’t as credible as you may think they are. No offense...
Posted By: NickyEyes1

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 04:10 AM

Truly amazing that this thread is still going
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 04:41 AM

@Nickle, again, well said
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 04:43 AM

Thank You Nickel
So Luppino has his own family and is a capo for Buffalo?

How does that work?

Where does the money GO?
LOL

50/50%
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 04:44 AM

In 1998 article, Coppola said that the Buffalo mob was penniless.....that in itself is a huge lie.

For me, that shows predicate, meaning hell lie and exaggerate about other items inclusive to the family simply to gain followers and believers of his work.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 04:52 AM

http://ticklethewire.com/2012/10/01/former-fbi-informant-wishes-he-had-chosen-his-path-differently/

If this in fact Ron Fino responding he acknowledges that he is skeptical of the 210 cleanup yet gives Sam Capitano credit for the effort but isnt 100% sold on him and he also states that the leaders have simply hunkered down, became more clandestine and attempt to look more respectful. This was only 6 years ago.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 05:01 AM

http://buffalonews.com/1996/10/07/reputed-mobster-elected-by-local-210/

In this article, FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS say that the effort to clean up the union is not working.

Soooo, if we are to go by published law enforcement statements and use it as HARD evidence, they agree that it wasnt possible to clean up the union with the method being applied.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://ticklethewire.com/2012/10/01/former-fbi-informant-wishes-he-had-chosen-his-path-differently/

If this in fact Ron Fino responding he acknowledges that he is skeptical of the 210 cleanup yet gives Sam Capitano credit for the effort but isnt 100% sold on him and he also states that the leaders have simply hunkered down, became more clandestine and attempt to look more respectful. This was only 6 years ago.


Ron Fino flipped in 1989. After that he really has no inside knowledge on the union. Not saying that throws away his credibility, but just bear that in mind when reading his information.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
http://buffalonews.com/1996/10/07/reputed-mobster-elected-by-local-210/

In this article, FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS say that the effort to clean up the union is not working.

Soooo, if we are to go by published law enforcement statements and use it as HARD evidence, they agree that it wasnt possible to clean up the union with the method being applied.


I don't disagree with that. But that article is from 1996. There were ten more years of hard-hitting union cleanup before federal investigators declared it clean. They have since stood by that claim.
So what's your point? That the unions weren't entirely clean by 1996? We all knew that. That's why there was another decade of strict federal oversight. Duh.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
In 1998 article, Coppola said that the Buffalo mob was penniless.....that in itself is a huge lie.

For me, that shows predicate, meaning hell lie and exaggerate about other items inclusive to the family simply to gain followers and believers of his work.


It's not really a huge lie when you consider the enormous rackets that Buffalo had taken away from it.
In context, Coppola's comment makes perfect sense. He's not trying to say that every Buffalo wiseguy was rattling a tin can on the street. But without the unions, Las Vegas pipeline, big loansharking books, and other staple rackets, the Buffalo mob simply did not have many enormous money-makers left. That's where the penniless comment comes from.

And if you're that hung up about Coppola's truth-telling, then it boggles my mind that you can take Giacomo seriously.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:09 PM

I already made my points, you cant just minimize them because it helps your own narrative.

My points, again, I repeat, again are that there is ambiguity in all these articles because the exact truth is unknown.

"Penniless" is either a lie or extremely exaggerated. Even in context, there was a lot of money being made in 1998.

I know the unions arent cleaned up to this date and not all involve Italian organized crime. My point is that during the "overhaul" of 210 it was impossible to route out all Maia ties and influence, as is the case today in 2018. A duck is a duck. Great theatrics by the current administration of 210 then but it was very unwise of the feds to allow them to govern and regulate themselves, hence the comment made by feds in that article.

Fino changes his story every few years to benefit himself, that is my point.


Its not just "duh" or "youre so hung up"...its my beliefs and my opinion and you point out what you believe to be non evidence is not non evidence to me. Do you understand that? Or?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:33 PM

Nicky;

For whatever the reason is I feel like you are not directly responding to my posts/questions.

I wanted to form my own opinion based on all the articles that all you guys have posted Nicky, Rooster, Nickel City.

I initially started out leaning towards your opinion with the fact of what you had said regarding no arrests in the last 10 years approxiamatly.

However, after reading all the articles and especially the 2017 arrests and the subsiquent news articles I just do not think so anymore... If you could answer my questions that would be great.

My questions are:

In your opinion when did the family become officially defunct?

What proof are you using to support that? Specifically...

Not general
FBI.. LE. Joe Newspaper guy, Frankie journalist, etc, etc.....

Please state specifically on this date:_____________

I.E. NICKY, ----> Response---> The family became defunct in 1987, I say that because of this article:______________-
I.E. ---> Response----> The family became defunct in 2000, I say that becasue that is when the FBI said they cleaned up the union, here is the FBI press release ___________________.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a little confused because you point to Fino being someone that is a reliable source and if that is fact
FACT MEANING all sides argee:

If in fact FINO is relaible I have just read an article from Fino from 2012 that states that the union has not been 100% cleaned up.

My two specific questions for you NICKY, are:

1) When is the defunct date? Please provide proof you used to make that call??

2) When was the union specifically cleaned up, date? It would have to be after 2012 becasue of the fact from begining to end you have listed FINO as a reliable source probably a 1/2 a dozen times.

Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 01:43 PM

The answer is they arent defunct yet....

As far as Giacomo lying 1) you think everyone is lying 2) he might be lying but he sure does pluck a lot of info out of magic hat, some I can corroborate, and no its not some big collusion between him and I...that stabbing I heard about, it was in 2013 and he didnt even get any money out of the guy, who is supposedly protected by another member and had threatened revenge many times but did nothing.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by Strax
I try to stay away from threads like this and people like 'The_Rooster" is. But i gotta wonder is there an admin here?


This thread is total nonsense,this guy keeps spamming 5 posts in a row,talking complete bullshit,withoutl any proof or anything. We had "mafia insiders" all the time,but this guy just beats them all.

@NickyfromTampa: Really appreciate you trying to talk some sense into this guy,but its pointless.Just give it up,i am hoping admin will take care of this guy.


At Strax, this thread is nonsense?

I followed it! It made sense to me. I appreciate Nicky’s argument. I thought this was a good discussion. So I guess I’m a little befuddled.. Maybe the reason you think this thread is nonsense is because there are at least 4 other individuals beside Rooster that see the logic of the other side?

So tell me how was I nonsensical?

You know if you study epistemology you learn that there all kinds of logic, argumentation, end even types of knowing. Knowledge isn’t just found newspaper articles. But I do agree some knowledge can and is found there, just not all knowledge ...it is just one way of knowing.


Strax... I don't mean to be rude, but you lobbed a bomb on this thread and then disappeared when a question was asked of you. I would appreciate an answer...

Even more, I would rather have Roster posting 5 times in a row... at least he is engaged in the discussion of this thread. If you are not going to engage in the discussion, why lob the bomb? To me an admin should be worried about people who show up to toys a grenade and leave, instead of your so-called concern that Rooster is spamming.

My questions again: How was I nonsensical?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 07:28 PM

@BillyBrizzi you never answered my questions.... Please, I am interested in your response.
Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by BillyBrizzi
Originally Posted by NickleCity

And here is my question Tampa:
If the Canadian Papers indicate the Buffalo Mob is active -- one clearly states it. How can you totally dismiss the idea? Again here is a quote from Metro News Toronto Edition:

Quote

The arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro.


Here is the Link: Arrests Linked to Buffalo Crime Family


It doesn't state the Buffalo family is active at all.
It says ''the arrests also hit members of the Buffalo crime family headed by the late Joe Todaro''

The word 'members' says nothing about the family as a whole and if it's active or defunct, which the media and LE has been saying for over a decade now. The word 'members' only means that there still are individual members and/or associates active. The same way there are still are individual members of the L.A. family or Cleveland family active..


But if the Buffalo Family is defunct and without leadership, why would a Canadian paper highlight the fact that those arrests were members of the Buffalo Crime Family instead of highlighting the Canadian Family or Families they were working for?

If the papers are referencing the Violi brothers and/or Carfagna...Why do they not just call them out as members of the Luppino Crime Family of Canada instead of reference the Buffalo family at all if Buffalo is truly defunct? I find that strange. Don't you?


Once again Billy here are my questions:
But if the Buffalo Family is defunct and without leadership, why would a Canadian paper highlight the fact that those arrests were members of the Buffalo Crime Family instead of highlighting the Canadian Family or Families they were working for?

If the papers are referencing the Violi brothers and/or Carfagna...Why do they not just call them out as members of the Luppino Crime Family of Canada instead of reference the Buffalo family at all if Buffalo is truly defunct? I find that strange. Don't you?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I already made my points, you cant just minimize them because it helps your own narrative.

My points, again, I repeat, again are that there is ambiguity in all these articles because the exact truth is unknown.

"Penniless" is either a lie or extremely exaggerated. Even in context, there was a lot of money being made in 1998.

I know the unions arent cleaned up to this date and not all involve Italian organized crime. My point is that during the "overhaul" of 210 it was impossible to route out all Maia ties and influence, as is the case today in 2018. A duck is a duck. Great theatrics by the current administration of 210 then but it was very unwise of the feds to allow them to govern and regulate themselves, hence the comment made by feds in that article.

Fino changes his story every few years to benefit himself, that is my point.


Its not just "duh" or "youre so hung up"...its my beliefs and my opinion and you point out what you believe to be non evidence is not non evidence to me. Do you understand that? Or?


By 1996, federal investigators declared they had not fully cleaned up the union. That is fact. That's why they continued the oversight for another decade. If you can find me an article from 2006, saying that they have not been able to uproot the mob's influence on the union, then you'll have a good point.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky;

For whatever the reason is I feel like you are not directly responding to my posts/questions.

I wanted to form my own opinion based on all the articles that all you guys have posted Nicky, Rooster, Nickel City.

The problem with this statement is that neither Nickle or Rooster have linked anything from a reputable source which indicates the Buffalo crime family is still an active crime family. You can argue that "maybe they're hierarchy isn't exact," but the fact is nothing that Nickle and Rooster have posted indicates that there is any sort of organized crime structure from the Todaro crime family. If the Canadian crime groups have moved in, that's a whole nother story.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

I initially started out leaning towards your opinion with the fact of what you had said regarding no arrests in the last 10 years approxiamatly.

However, after reading all the articles and especially the 2017 arrests and the subsiquent news articles I just do not think so anymore... If you could answer my questions that would be great.

My questions are:

In your opinion when did the family become officially defunct?

I've answered this one before, Bensonhurst. Like I said, the FBI officially produced their last chart for the family in 2006. However, the chart seemed to only list surviving members, not indicative of any structure. The reason I say this is because, if accurate, the chart would have only had 2 soldiers per crew, which we know isn't a good model.
So I believe the family probably died around 2006. Because I believe that was the time in which the FBI still had enough members in the family to produce a chart, but not enough to produce a chart that actually made sense.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

What proof are you using to support that? Specifically...

Not general
FBI.. LE. Joe Newspaper guy, Frankie journalist, etc, etc.....

Please state specifically on this date:_____________

I.E. NICKY, ----> Response---> The family became defunct in 1987, I say that because of this article:______________-
I.E. ---> Response----> The family became defunct in 2000, I say that becasue that is when the FBI said they cleaned up the union, here is the FBI press release ___________________.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no exact moment in which a family says "Okay everybody, pack your things up, we're now defunct." It simply doesn't work like that. The family fades away overtime. That makes it impossible to name an exact date when a family goes defunct.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

I am a little confused because you point to Fino being someone that is a reliable source and if that is fact

No I didn't. I've said numerous times that Fino isn't a totally reliable source, since he flipped in 1989. Don't put words in my mouth Bensonhurst.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST


FACT MEANING all sides argee:

Fact does not mean "all sides agree." I WISH that it did. For example, Rooster has presented NO PROVEN FACTS to back up his narrative, by I have produced many facts to back up mine.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

If in fact FINO is relaible I have just read an article from Fino from 2012 that states that the union has not been 100% cleaned up.

My two specific questions for you NICKY, are:

1) When is the defunct date? Please provide proof you used to make that call??

Quit going on about this defunct date Bensonhurst. What are you trying to prove by it? There IS no defunct date.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

2) When was the union specifically cleaned up, date? It would have to be after 2012 becasue of the fact from begining to end you have listed FINO as a reliable source probably a 1/2 a dozen times.



Jesus Christ Bensonhurst... If you want to participate in this thread you'll have to listen...

Fino is not the be-all-end-all of reliable sources. Rooster was the first person to cite Fino as a reliable source. I pointed out that, although Fino knew what the inner workings of the family looked like, he could not accurately know what is going on in the unions today without it being educated speculation, since he flipped in 1989.

Bensonhurst. If you believe Rooster, Nickle, and exposed liar Giacomo over the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, investigative journalists, and mob experts, go ahead.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
The answer is they arent defunct yet....

As far as Giacomo lying 1) you think everyone is lying 2) he might be lying but he sure does pluck a lot of info out of magic hat, some I can corroborate, and no its not some big collusion between him and I...that stabbing I heard about, it was in 2013 and he didnt even get any money out of the guy, who is supposedly protected by another member and had threatened revenge many times but did nothing.


Giacomo is a proven liar. He lied about hits committed by Tony Mirra, and admitted to it. Why did he lie? Who knows. That's one of many little tidbits of false knowledge which he pulls out of his magic hat.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by NickleCity

Once again Billy here are my questions:
But if the Buffalo Family is defunct and without leadership, why would a Canadian paper highlight the fact that those arrests were members of the Buffalo Crime Family instead of highlighting the Canadian Family or Families they were working for?

If the papers are referencing the Violi brothers and/or Carfagna...Why do they not just call them out as members of the Luppino Crime Family of Canada instead of reference the Buffalo family at all if Buffalo is truly defunct? I find that strange. Don't you?


BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MEMBERS OF THE LUPPINO CRIME FAMILY.
They are members of the Buffalo crime family.
Once you are made, you are made FOR LIFE, unless you formerly, approvedly, "switch over."
Joseph Gagliano was named a New Orleans soldier when he was busted in 2014, even though that family is long defunct.
Billy D'Elia was the boss of a defunct family when he was indicted in 08 for running his own scams.

This is not speculative. This is how the Mafia works.


If they are not members of the Luppino crime family, then why does a Canadian newspaper call Dominic Violi the “heir apparent” of the Luppino crime family? Did he formally approvedly switch over? If so, I’d like the evidence for that. ...Or was he made in both? I guess there is the possibility he was never made in the Todaro Family too. For not being speculatice, it seems to me like this is all speculation...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by NickleCity

Once again Billy here are my questions:
But if the Buffalo Family is defunct and without leadership, why would a Canadian paper highlight the fact that those arrests were members of the Buffalo Crime Family instead of highlighting the Canadian Family or Families they were working for?

If the papers are referencing the Violi brothers and/or Carfagna...Why do they not just call them out as members of the Luppino Crime Family of Canada instead of reference the Buffalo family at all if Buffalo is truly defunct? I find that strange. Don't you?


BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MEMBERS OF THE LUPPINO CRIME FAMILY.
They are members of the Buffalo crime family.
Once you are made, you are made FOR LIFE, unless you formerly, approvedly, "switch over."
Joseph Gagliano was named a New Orleans soldier when he was busted in 2014, even though that family is long defunct.
Billy D'Elia was the boss of a defunct family when he was indicted in 08 for running his own scams.

This is not speculative. This is how the Mafia works.


If they are not members of the Luppino crime family, then why does a Canadian newspaper call Dominic Violi the “heir apparent” of the Luppino crime family? Did he formally approvedly switch over? If so, I’d like the evidence for that. ...Or was he made in both? I guess there is the possibility he was never made in the Todaro Family too. For not being speculatice, it seems to me like this is all speculation...


SORRY. That is my bad. I misread your post.

EDIT; I have since deleted it. I will respond soon.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 09:31 PM

I personally don't think the Violis were ever Todaro crime family members. That being said, if they did switch over to the Luppino crime group, which were rivalling the Todaros in Canada, that only adds weight to the notion that the Todaro crime group in Canada is defunct.

If there are OTHER members of the Todaro crime family that are working alongside the Luppinos, then that does not mean they are automatically Luppino family members. The feds are still obliged to label them from the original family that they were made into. See, Joseph Gagliano, Billy D'Elia, Eugene Castelle.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
I personally don't think the Violis were ever Todaro crime family members. That being said, if they did switch over to the Luppino crime group, which were rivalling the Todaros in Canada, that only adds weight to the notion that the Todaro crime group in Canada is defunct.

If there are OTHER members of the Todaro crime family that are working alongside the Luppinos, then that does not mean they are automatically Luppino family members. The feds are still obliged to label them from the original family that they were made into. See, Joseph Gagliano, Billy D'Elia, Eugene Castelle.


If the Violi brothers are not the members fo the Todaro Crime family that the Canadian newspapers talk about, who do you think is?

Personally, I believe the Violi's are the most likely choice, especially given the fact more than one Canadian paper makes a point to tie their history to the Buffalo Crime family.

Additionally, from what I understand, the old bosses of these Canadian families were made men & capos in Buffalo back in the day. This insured that Magaddino controlled these families operations. Hence I would say, at least in the 50's & 60's, these families were Buffalo crews yet 'Ndrangheta families. (Help me if I'm wrong with the history.) So did that make the soldiers in those Canadian families solders for the Buffalo Crime family also? I don't know that answer to that, but it seem logical to me.

And to throw another monkey wrench in this all... even though Giacomo Luppino would have been a capo in the Buffalo crime family, wasn't he the one that helped established the ruling panel for the Canadian 'Ndrangheta in the Toronto area? That sounds like he was active and made in both crime families and both Cosa Nostra and the 'Ndrangheta.

All we know is that everything get confusing when dealing with 'Ndrangheta in Canada and Buffalo had been/has been working with them for a long time.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/09/18 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
I personally don't think the Violis were ever Todaro crime family members. That being said, if they did switch over to the Luppino crime group, which were rivalling the Todaros in Canada, that only adds weight to the notion that the Todaro crime group in Canada is defunct.

If there are OTHER members of the Todaro crime family that are working alongside the Luppinos, then that does not mean they are automatically Luppino family members. The feds are still obliged to label them from the original family that they were made into. See, Joseph Gagliano, Billy D'Elia, Eugene Castelle.


If the Violi brothers are not the members fo the Todaro Crime family that the Canadian newspapers talk about, who do you think is?

Personally, I believe the Violi's are the most likely choice, especially given the fact more than one Canadian paper makes a point to tie their history to the Buffalo Crime family.

Additionally, from what I understand, the old bosses of these Canadian families were made men & capos in Buffalo back in the day. This insured that Magaddino controlled these families operations. Hence I would say, at least in the 50's & 60's, these families were Buffalo crews yet 'Ndrangheta families. (Help me if I'm wrong with the history.) So did that make the soldiers in those Canadian families solders for the Buffalo Crime family also? I don't know that answer to that, but it seem logical to me.

And to throw another monkey wrench in this all... even though Giacomo Luppino would have been a capo in the Buffalo crime family, wasn't he the one that helped established the ruling panel for the Canadian 'Ndrangheta in the Toronto area? That sounds like he was active and made in both crime families and both Cosa Nostra and the 'Ndrangheta.

All we know is that everything get confusing when dealing with 'Ndrangheta in Canada and Buffalo had been/has been working with them for a long time.


It's confusing to say the least. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if there was still activity in Canada that evolved and merged from the Papalia crew, but nothing I've seen leads me to the conclusion that the Todaro crime family has a dedicated crew, structure, or hierarchy in place in Canada.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 04:02 AM

Nicky;

The Violi's are not members of Buffalo?

What do you base that on?

That the feds did not spell it out?

And if they are not Buffalo? What family are they with?

What do you base that on?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, do you find it a bit odd that:

The foremost mafia expert in Hamilton would quote this:

In response to these arrests Canadian journalist Adrian Humphries wrote:

Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph Todaro Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.[1

He did write the book "The ENFORCER" about Papilla

Why did he only mention the Todaro Crime Family?
You can't say because the Violi's were originally made with them...

So the Violi's are high ranking memebers of a family that has international influence, that had a police force on their take....

And the powers that be only list the family that the VIOLI"s according to you are not a member of and have never been a member of.

Just not list the actual family they are with??

Nicky do you think Humphrey's would know about Papilia's crew and the rest of Hamilton LCN, basically two crews of Buffalo defected from the Buffalo family and went where???????

That is the first time and last time two actual crews defected from a family...

What family did they end up with?

Out of all that all the players RCMP, FBI, LE, Author, Journalists involved only choose to mention the DEFUNCT FAMILY???

Not the family the that the money is being kicked up to??
Not the boss of the family that they want to lock up.

Let us reference in our press release's only a family that is defunct for the past 11 years and noboy is a member of.

RIDDLE ME THAT?

Also-

Since the Violi's are NOT the made members of the Todaro family?

Who is?

Here are the 9 arrested in Canada:

Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky;

The Violi's are not members of Buffalo?

What do you base that on?

That the feds did not spell it out?


Yes, Bensonhurst. To the best of my knowledge, they were not part of the feds' final 2006 chart for the family, and they have been numerously named as Luppino crime group members.
I don't go around assuming random mobsters with TIES to Buffalo are Todaro crime family members.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

And if they are not Buffalo? What family are they with?

The crime group that media and LE has been SAYING they are a part of: The Luppino crime group.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

What do you base that on?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go back a couple pages and find out for yourself.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Also, do you find it a bit odd that:

The foremost mafia expert in Hamilton would quote this:

In response to these arrests Canadian journalist Adrian Humphries wrote:

Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph Todaro Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.[1

He did write the book "The ENFORCER" about Papilla

Why did he only mention the Todaro Crime Family?
You can't say because the Violi's were originally made with them...

Why the fuck would I assume that Humphrey was talking about the Violis when he didn't mention their name once in that paragraph. Stop connecting dots that aren't there. If the Violis were Todaro crime family members, they would be labelled as such in the DOZENS upon DOZENS of articles about them.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

So the Violi's are high ranking memebers of a family that has international influence, that had a police force on their take....

And the powers that be only list the family that the VIOLI"s according to you are not a member of and have never been a member of.

Just not list the actual family they are with??

Nicky do you think Humphrey's would know about Papilia's crew and the rest of Hamilton LCN, basically two crews of Buffalo defected from the Buffalo family and went where???????

That is the first time and last time two actual crews defected from a family...

More incoherent rambling. Again, if the Violis were Buffalo family members then LE or media, by now, would have labelled them as such at least once down the line. Just because the name Buffalo occurs in the same article as the name Violi does not automatically mean a connection.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

What family did they end up with?

Out of all that all the players RCMP, FBI, LE, Author, Journalists involved only choose to mention the DEFUNCT FAMILY???

As Nickle pointed out earlier, Violi was specifically labelled as the heir apparent to the LUPPINO CRIME GROUP. And, by the way, the RCMP never released an official indictment on their website. So all Humphrey had to (immediately) go on was the U.S. Justice Department's release, which noted that members of the Todaro crime family were arrested and charged with drug trafficking.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST


Not the family the that the money is being kicked up to??
Not the boss of the family that they want to lock up.

Let us reference in our press release's only a family that is defunct for the past 11 years and noboy is a member of.

RIDDLE ME THAT?

I direct you to my Justice Department comment.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Also-

Since the Violi's are NOT the made members of the Todaro family?

Who is?

Here are the 9 arrested in Canada:

Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.

That's a good question which none of us here know the answers to yet.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky;

The Violi's are not members of Buffalo?

What do you base that on?

That the feds did not spell it out?


Yes, Bensonhurst. To the best of my knowledge, they were not part of the feds' final 2006 chart for the family, and they have been numerously named as Luppino crime group members.
I don't go around assuming random mobsters with TIES to Buffalo are Todaro crime family members.


Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Also-

Since the Violi's are NOT the made members of the Todaro family?

Who is?

Here are the 9 arrested in Canada:

Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.

That's a good question which none of us here know the answers to yet.


I find it interesting the 2006 chart that you are found of referring to did not have any of these 9 individuals on it. Logically, that leaves one of two possibilities:

1. The chart was wrong and there were additional soldiers the Feds did not know about.
--If true, the family would have been stronger than the chart suggested.
--If true, the Violi brothers could have been made in the Buffalo family but not listed in the 2006 chart.
2. The Buffalo family made members after 2006.
--If true, it indicates the family was stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.
--And/or the family has rebuilt and is stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.

Help me Nicky, am I wrong? Is there another possibility? If not, which of the two options do you choose?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 12:16 PM

Theres no use talking any rationale but youre right Nickle and Benson.

Someone in the arrest group is Buffalo Crime Family and if not the Feds are lying yet again. And logic would say its the Violis because they are the top tier of that group.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 04:16 PM

Here is some more information on Violi. I happened upon a Halton Police Intelligence Report on him. It proves nothing about his connection with Buffalo, but interesting since we are talking him. This is where the Canadian Paper got its information that Violi is the heir apparent to the Luppino Crime family. (See page 2).

Also, police in Hamilton area knew Violi had currupt police on the take since 2002. That is over 16 years!! But did nothing till this Halston Police Report was leaked a few months ago. Here is the CBC article: Violi Had Corrupt Police on The Take for 16 Years. Police knew but did nothing!!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nicky;

The Violi's are not members of Buffalo?

What do you base that on?

That the feds did not spell it out?


Yes, Bensonhurst. To the best of my knowledge, they were not part of the feds' final 2006 chart for the family, and they have been numerously named as Luppino crime group members.
I don't go around assuming random mobsters with TIES to Buffalo are Todaro crime family members.


Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Also-

Since the Violi's are NOT the made members of the Todaro family?

Who is?

Here are the 9 arrested in Canada:

Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.

That's a good question which none of us here know the answers to yet.


I find it interesting the 2006 chart that you are found of referring to did not have any of these 9 individuals on it. Logically, that leaves one of two possibilities:

1. The chart was wrong and there were additional soldiers the Feds did not know about.
--If true, the family would have been stronger than the chart suggested.
--If true, the Violi brothers could have been made in the Buffalo family but not listed in the 2006 chart.
2. The Buffalo family made members after 2006.
--If true, it indicates the family was stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.
--And/or the family has rebuilt and is stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.

Help me Nicky, am I wrong? Is there another possibility? If not, which of the two options do you choose?


I don't know who was actually on that chart, all I know is the numbers. If anybody can find that chart, it's go a lot way in this discussion.



Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Theres no use talking any rationale but youre right Nickle and Benson.

Someone in the arrest group is Buffalo Crime Family and if not the Feds are lying yet again. And logic would say its the Violis because they are the top tier of that group.


Wait, Rooster's being logical? What sort of bizarro reality is this? This is a step-up from his usual form of strutting around like he won the argument ten pages ago, tearing apart any real points I make by saying "Look how mad he's getting," or arguing grammar about the term 'boss.'

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Here is some more information on Violi. I happened upon a Halton Police Intelligence Report on him. It proves nothing about his connection with Buffalo, but interesting since we are talking him. This is where the Canadian Paper got its information that Violi is the heir apparent to the Luppino Crime family.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


This is what I was referring to earlier Nickle about how the Hamilton police knew about the Violis before 2002. But thank you for linking the full photos.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 07:57 PM

Wait a second, Nicky can keep rambling at the mouth for a whole other month?? Shocking. I won in the sense I made my points over and over, refuted yours, gave yoy answers, didnt allow everyone to to simply believe all your articles and still stayed true to every scenario I described since 2016 thread. So again, what dont you get about agreeing to disagree? Hello???? McFly
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Wait a second, Nicky can keep rambling at the mouth for a whole other month?? Shocking. I won in the sense I made my points over and over, refuted yours, gave yoy answers,

Answers that don't make any fucking sense. But sure, keep believing that LE is on a grand conspiracy to cover up the Buffalo mob but your imaginary self-professed corrupt beat cops are somehow in the know.

And no, you didn't "refute" my articles, apart from saying Coppola is a liar for calling the Buffalo mob in 1998 "penniless." One comment, taken out of context, in an entire article describing the mob's demise. That's enough for you to prove he's lying apparently.
Well, since you've got such a high standing of truth, why did you try and say the FBI didn't use the name "Todaro crime family" before 2017? Because that's a bald-faced lie. And why did you commend pmac on making a "good point" when he claimed the feds had called Violi the underboss, when that is also a bald-faced lie.
And why do you chose to believe Giacomo, when he was caught, and admitted to, lying about the murders that Tony Mirra committted. This is one of Giacomo's many confessed lies.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

didnt allow everyone to to simply believe all your articles

Wtf...
It's a case between believing:
Law enforcement, federal prosecutors, FBI, district attorneys, proven mob experts, investigative journalists
OR
Rooster, the admitted liar Giacomo, and NickleCity, none of whom we know anything about beyond their screen names.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

and still stayed true to every scenario I described since 2016 thread.

So, in Rooster's world, staying true to one story somehow makes you right. No Rooster, it just means you're careful not to contradict your many lies.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

So again, what dont you get about agreeing to disagree? Hello???? McFly


It's not a case of agreeing to disagree. You state things as fact, even when they're just street talk that you cannot back up. You told Bensonhurst, regarding the existence of the Buffalo mob, "Yes, it's proven" when you know damn well that it hasn't been proven the mob is active in Buffalo today.
You intentionally mislead people, and I have called you out on it numerous times.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 09:17 PM

9 Arrested in Hamilton:

Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.

Here is a 2012 Buffalo Chart: BTW I know this is not the 2006 FBI Chart but is based off it... still looking for 2006 chart.

[Linked Image]

I don't see anyone on this chart listed in the Canadian Arrest records...

I believe this chart is the 2006 chart that just shows who is now deceased. If anyone can find the 2006 please share!

Canadian newspapers state that the arrests included members of the Todaro Crime Family based in Buffalo. My contention is there are two options as to why none of those arrested in Nov. 2017 are on this 2012 chart that is based on the FBI's 2006 chart:

1. The 2006/12 chart was wrong . It didn't include all the soldiers of the Buffalo Crime family, or...
2. The family was still strong enough to be making members after 2006 or even 2012.

Both would indicate there was more of a family than the Feds knew about. Nicky?

Also, the Violi are known to have ties to the Buffalo Crime Family thru the Luppino's who were made in the Buffalo Family. Doesn't this make them the one the papers are likely talking about? Especially since no one has heard of 1. Scolieri, 2. Rotolo, 3. Valentine or 4.Arroyo being connected to Buffalo. I at least have not heard of any connection between these four and the Todaro Family? Has anyone else?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/10/18 10:07 PM

Update on 2012 chart: Papalia chose to retire after his brother’s hit in 1997 according to the Canadian Brodcast Compnay (CBC News).
Quote
It’s significant, Dubro noted, that Papalia apparently chose not to retaliate for his brother’s violent death, opting instead for retirement.

Frank died in 2014. Here is the link to the article: CBC article on Frank Papalia’s Life & Death
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 03:45 AM

Nickel;

I don't see anyone on this chart listed in the Canadian Arrest records...


Canadian newspapers state that the arrests included members of the Todaro Crime Family based in Buffalo. My contention is there are two options as to why none of those arrested in Nov. 2017 are on this 2012 chart that is based on the FBI's 2006 chart:

1. The 2006/12 chart was wrong . It didn't include all the soldiers of the Buffalo Crime family, or...
2. The family was still strong enough to be making members after 2006 or even 2012.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree 1000% percent

Nicky, will not answer this

The tuff ones he dances around and hurls girly insults, to deflect...

Any logical person after reading all that collectively we have posted about the 2017 arrests would conclude that all parties are linking the Violi's to the Todaro family.

Nicky, cannot logically explain why they would not have added somewhere that the Violi's are high ranking memebers and heir apparent of the Luppino crime family, instead they want to just list a crime family that they have no affiliation to and is defunct..

It just makes no sense..

He is all over the place first he was saying they listed the Todaro's because once made or affialiated with a crime family they always are, like in Tampa and New Orleans,
He then goes on to say that the Violi's have and never had any affialation to Buffalo.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
Nickel;

I don't see anyone on this chart listed in the Canadian Arrest records...


Canadian newspapers state that the arrests included members of the Todaro Crime Family based in Buffalo. My contention is there are two options as to why none of those arrested in Nov. 2017 are on this 2012 chart that is based on the FBI's 2006 chart:

1. The 2006/12 chart was wrong . It didn't include all the soldiers of the Buffalo Crime family, or...
2. The family was still strong enough to be making members after 2006 or even 2012.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree 1000% percent

Nicky, will not answer this

The tuff ones he dances around and hurls girly insults, to deflect...


Hurls girly insults? Just read Rooster's posts for chrissakes. He started with the insults from the get-go.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

Any logical person after reading all that collectively we have posted about the 2017 arrests would conclude that all parties are linking the Violi's to the Todaro family.

Nicky, cannot logically explain why they would not have added somewhere that the Violi's are high ranking memebers and heir apparent of the Luppino crime family, instead they want to just list a crime family that they have no affiliation to and is defunct..

It just makes no sense..

I have responded to this before Bensonhurst. But, because you're clearly too ignorant to respond, I'll say it again.

The articles you have referenced mentioned the Canadian arrests, and the Violis names pop up because they are the most well known names in the indictment.
Then, later in the article, they use the information provided on the Justice Department's office and say "Members of the Todaro crime family were also arrested."
There is no link there between the Violis and the Buffalo crime family. All they are saying is that members of the Todaro crime family were arrested in the operation. They did not mention Violi as being one of those members. You wanna know why? Because the only information that we know is that the Justice Department said that members of the Todaro crime family were arrested in the same operation in which Violi was arrested.
They mention Violi. Later, they mention Buffalo. You're trying to connect dots which aren't there.
If the article were to say "Members of the Todaro crime family were also arrested, including Violi" - then you'd have something. But we don't. We have an article discussing the arrests of nine people including the Violis. Later in the article, they say "Members of the Todaro crime family were among those arrested," or words to that effect. Bensonhurst, for whatever reason you seem to really want the Buffalo crime family to exist. Which is why:
a) You keep connecting dots that aren't there.
b) You are very, very, very quick to call into question tangible evidence from the feds, law enforcement, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists. But you don't even consider that Rooster's imaginary beat cops might be fallible.
c) You've said clearly wrong things about the family in an attempt to back up your point, like how you don't think it's possible that a 100-man family could be dead by today. This can be chalked up to simply getting facts wrong, but then Rooster backed up your obviously wrong statement by saying "this is the best theory so far."

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

He is all over the place first he was saying they listed the Todaro's because once made or affialiated with a crime family they always are, like in Tampa and New Orleans,

I say this because you don't seem to understand.
Buffalo follows the same making procedures as every other family. Once you are made, you are made for life. The reason I make the connection to New Orleans, Scranton, and Florida, is because what Rooster and others don't seem to understand is that when a family goes defunct, surviving members of that family are still "members for life." This is basic mafia knowledge. Don't act like it isn't relevant Bensonhurst.

Originally Posted by BensonHURST

He then goes on to say that the Violi's have and never had any affialation to Buffalo.

Stop putting words in my mouth. There's no question their grandfather, who raised them after their father was murdered, was a Magaddino family captain. I have never denied this.

Why do I bother arguing with you Bensonhurst? You have your heart set on the fact that the family is still active, even though Rooster and Nickle have offered ZERO proof that it is still active. There is proof it's not active. If you choose not to believe the feds, district attorneys, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts like Scott Deitche, and organized crime investigative journalists, than I'm fine with that. But if you think Rooster is somehow a more reliable source than all of these people, even though we have no clue who he is or who his beat cop buddies are, then you're obviously a fucking moron. There's no two ways about it. I'm not saying the feds are infallible, but they are a hell of a lot more reliable than some internet poster with made-up beat cop buddies who didn't even know what the family was called until 2017.

Until we know exactly who was the Todaro crime family members talked about, there's no point speculating.
With that being said, I don't remember the feds in 2006 mentioning the Canada crew.

EDIT; By the way, I always try and make a point out of responding to someone's entire comment like I did with this one, so I don't miss anything. I'd like it if Rooster and Bensonhurst do the same so they don't keep missing things that I've been repeating this entire thread.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 01:58 PM

@Nicky...I am still looking for the original 2006 FBI chart so you can answer my questions. Below is a list of Buffalo made men from the 2006 FBI chart who were still alive in 2015. It was posted on Black Hand Forum posted by tmorrata:

Quote
Frank Bifulco: Retired and living in Florida
Harold Bordanaro: Retired in Canada.
Pasquale Brindisi
Russell Carcone: Living in Utica. Might still be active in gambling and theft.
Salvatore Cardinale
Paul Cipoli
Philip Corelli
Leonard Falzone: Living in Las Vegas
James Feliciano
Frank Ferraro
Peter Gerace
Dominic Italiano
Vincent Lombardo
Frank Marino
Robert Panaro: Living in Las Vegas
Frank Papalia: Retired in Canada.
John Pieri
Joseph Pugliesi: Lives in Hamilton, Ontario. He is allegedly active.
Victor Sansanese
Vincent Sicurella: Retired in Buffalo. He is in poor health.
Joseph Todaro, Jr.: Inactive and working at La Nova.


(On a side note: He was wrong about where Bifulco and Falzone lived. BiFulco was and is in Buffalo majority of the time... Falzone was definitely in Buffalo full time before he passed, not Vegas. He had a regular breakfast spot of Delaware Ave. in Buffalo. But Pieri is in Vegas operating "Immaculate Carpets & Cleaning Services" with his son.)

@Nickyyou mentioned that you did not remember the Canadian Papilia Crew being listed on FBI 2006 chart when I posted the 2012 chart that was based off it ... This chart lists them too. Again I don't see any of the names of those arrested in Canada in November of 2017 on this list. Here is the list:

Quote
Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.


The papers in Canada definitely said the arrests included members of the "Todaro Crime Family." Now back to my logic and questions for you. Here they are below:

Quote
I find it interesting the 2006 chart that you are found of referring to did not have any of these 9 individuals on it. Logically, that leaves one of two possibilities:

1. The chart was wrong and there were additional soldiers the Feds did not know about.
--If true, the family would have been stronger than the chart suggested.
--If true, the Violi brothers could have been made in the Buffalo family but not listed in the 2006 chart.
2. The Buffalo family made members after 2006.
--If true, it indicates the family was stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.
--And/or the family has rebuilt and is stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.

Help me Nicky, am I wrong? Is there another possibility? If not, which of the two options do you choose?


What say ye?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 06:40 PM

You can continue on and on and on and on until you are blue in the face. Your not believed 100% just deal with it. Ive thrown girly insults because you act like a girl.

I didnt contradict myself because there is nothing to contradict. I didnt go back and review every post in 2016 and make sure it corroborates, Im just simply not lying and not misleading anyone. Just because you say it doesnt mean its the truth, just like everyone else on here and what they post.

Giacomo may have admitted to lying but he knows a lot of random things that have happened.

Nickle and Benson bring you logic and you simply tell them it isnt logic based on inaccuracies and contradictions in articles YOU PROVIDE! and that theres nothing to connect...says who??? Nicky from Tampa?? Which means what dude?? A Nothing. A screen name??? Get it? No, ofcourse not, because you want what you say to be believed by everyone. Thats not life dude. Wake up and allow people to connect whatever dots they want and deal with it. I seriously think you have some mental issues to continue this a month later and tell everyone basically they are idiots time and time again for feeling a certain way on not only what I say or anyone else but what you give them in published articles.

We dont believe you or your articles, do you understand?? Get a life.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 06:41 PM

Good work Nickle, as weve gone over 100x, there is more than meets the eye, and a structure and viability.

Your logic is appreciated and understood from people who actually read books and understand the world.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You can continue on and on and on and on until you are blue in the face. Your not believed 100% just deal with it. Ive thrown girly insults because you act like a girl.

I didnt contradict myself because there is nothing to contradict. I didnt go back and review every post in 2016 and make sure it corroborates, Im just simply not lying and not misleading anyone. Just because you say it doesnt mean its the truth, just like everyone else on here and what they post.

Giacomo may have admitted to lying but he knows a lot of random things that have happened.

Nickle and Benson bring you logic and you simply tell them it isnt logic based on inaccuracies and contradictions in articles YOU PROVIDE! and that theres nothing to connect...says who??? Nicky from Tampa?? Which means what dude?? A Nothing. A screen name??? Get it? No, ofcourse not, because you want what you say to be believed by everyone. Thats not life dude. Wake up and allow people to connect whatever dots they want and deal with it. I seriously think you have some mental issues to continue this a month later and tell everyone basically they are idiots time and time again for feeling a certain way on not only what I say or anyone else but what you give them in published articles.

We dont believe you or your articles, do you understand?? Get a life.


I actually appreciate Nicky taking the time to respond to me and Bensonhurst... He has spurred me to do more digging and sharpen my arguments. For that @Nicky--Thank you! But I still don't believe Cosa Nostra in Buffalo is dead!!
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Good work Nickle, as weve gone over 100x, there is more than meets the eye, and a structure and viability.

Your logic is appreciated and understood from people who actually read books and understand the world.


Thank you! A lot of what you say matches what I've heard around the area.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 06:56 PM

Bifulco has a place on Delaware, hes not in Vegas full time or half time. And he use to have breakfast/lunch with a big mofu Hells Angel at Panos when it was open.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You can continue on and on and on and on until you are blue in the face. Your not believed 100% just deal with it. Ive thrown girly insults because you act like a girl.

I didnt contradict myself because there is nothing to contradict. I didnt go back and review every post in 2016 and make sure it corroborates, Im just simply not lying and not misleading anyone.


@Nicky... People do learn an that causes people to change some of what they think and believe over time. We call that growth. My opinions are constantly evolving as I learn more... That doesn't make me a liar, because I don't believe everything I used to think in 2016.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Bifulco has a place on Delaware, hes not in Vegas full time


Yeah, I knew that part of the post wasn't completely right. I corrected Falzone, but couldn't remember Bifulco...
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 07:08 PM

AGAIN Nicky, apples and oranges when trying to compare Scranton, Tampa, and New Orleans. Just cant compare, different beasts. Unless you ofcourse are saying that any of them are active? Do you have any other info on Tampa other than articles? and if so how can we believe you and that you simply arent just misleading because you are or arent from Tampa?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
@Nicky...I am still looking for the original 2006 FBI chart so you can answer my questions. Below is a list of Buffalo made men from the 2006 FBI chart who were still alive in 2015. It was posted on Black Hand Forum posted by tmorrata:

Quote
Frank Bifulco: Retired and living in Florida
Harold Bordanaro: Retired in Canada.
Pasquale Brindisi
Russell Carcone: Living in Utica. Might still be active in gambling and theft.
Salvatore Cardinale
Paul Cipoli
Philip Corelli
Leonard Falzone: Living in Las Vegas
James Feliciano
Frank Ferraro
Peter Gerace
Dominic Italiano
Vincent Lombardo
Frank Marino
Robert Panaro: Living in Las Vegas
Frank Papalia: Retired in Canada.
John Pieri
Joseph Pugliesi: Lives in Hamilton, Ontario. He is allegedly active.
Victor Sansanese
Vincent Sicurella: Retired in Buffalo. He is in poor health.
Joseph Todaro, Jr.: Inactive and working at La Nova.


(On a side note: He was wrong about where Bifulco and Falzone lived. BiFulco was and is in Buffalo majority of the time... Falzone was definitely in Buffalo full time before he passed, not Vegas. He had a regular breakfast spot of Delaware Ave. in Buffalo. But Pieri is in Vegas operating "Immaculate Carpets & Cleaning Services" with his son.)

@Nickyyou mentioned that you did not remember the Canadian Papilia Crew being listed on FBI 2006 chart when I posted the 2012 chart that was based off it ... This chart lists them too. Again I don't see any of the names of those arrested in Canada in November of 2017 on this list. Here is the list:

Quote
Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.


The papers in Canada definitely said the arrests included members of the "Todaro Crime Family." Now back to my logic and questions for you. Here they are below:

Quote
I find it interesting the 2006 chart that you are found of referring to did not have any of these 9 individuals on it. Logically, that leaves one of two possibilities:

1. The chart was wrong and there were additional soldiers the Feds did not know about.
--If true, the family would have been stronger than the chart suggested.
--If true, the Violi brothers could have been made in the Buffalo family but not listed in the 2006 chart.
2. The Buffalo family made members after 2006.
--If true, it indicates the family was stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.
--And/or the family has rebuilt and is stronger than the 2006 chart suggests.

Help me Nicky, am I wrong? Is there another possibility? If not, which of the two options do you choose?


What say ye?


Good stuff Nickle.
Until we find out more information, I'd pick the 1st of your options.
Although I really don't know.
But I commend your researching skills.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You can continue on and on and on and on until you are blue in the face. Your not believed 100% just deal with it. Ive thrown girly insults because you act like a girl.

Thanks for admitting you were throwing girly insults. I wonder what Bensonhurst is going to say now.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I didnt contradict myself because there is nothing to contradict. I didnt go back and review every post in 2016 and make sure it corroborates, Im just simply not lying and not misleading anyone.

Rooster. Again I ask that you can "quote" my comments when you reply to them so I don't have to keep going back and checking what you are responding to. That way you can also make sure you havent missed anything I said.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Just because you say it doesnt mean its the truth, just like everyone else on here and what they post.

That's the most ironic thing you've said this entire thread.
For people to believe you, means that have to believe solely, 100% on your word, your corroborated word, alone. Right? Do you agree? Rooster, I'd like you to respond to this one. Because YES, just because I say something DOES NOT mean it's true. This is why I offer sources, evidence, references. You do NONE of that. You expect people to rely SOLELY on your word alone. And you can say "Nickle and Giacomo agree with me" but you still have facts and information that neither of those can corrorborate.

So, again, just because I say something, doesn't mean it's the truth.
But here's the thing:
Just because YOU say something, doesn't mean it's the truth.
If you want to call me out, look in the fuckin mirror. Because Bensonhurst and others around here seem to think you are some sort of expert on subjects, even though you have no proof in the vast majority of your claims about the family.
And here's the worst part about this. Even though you offer no proof (and you scoffed at me when I asked for proof as if it was some unheard-of concept), you still think people HAVE to believe you. Because, according to you, they're delusional if they don't believe. How does that work? Again, Rooster, if you're going to respond to anything, respond to this.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Giacomo may have admitted to lying but he knows a lot of random things that have happened.

None of which either he or you can prove.
And if he admits to lying, for no apparent reason, why do you hold him on such a pedastal? But not Coppola? Just because Coppola used the wrong adjective ONCE in his article, you scrap away any respect you had for him even though he is not only acclaimed, he is well-researched. But when Giacomo admits to lying and lies on multiple occasions for no apparent reason, that doesn't occur to you as odd?
Giacomo is a resident bullshitter. How often does he bullshit? That is impossible to determine because, like everything he says about Buffalo, there is no way to offer proof for/against at the moment.
But the fact that he has been caught lying on multiple occasions should be enough to quickly scrap his credibility. And the worst part is, he hasn't even been proven RIGHT on anything "street talk" he puts out.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Nickle and Benson bring you logic and you simply tell them it isnt logic based on inaccuracies and contradictions in articles YOU PROVIDE! and that theres nothing to connect...says who??? Nicky from Tampa?? Which means what dude?? A Nothing. A screen name??? Get it? No, ofcourse not, because you want what you say to be believed by everyone.

Again with the irony.
You don't want anyone to believe a word I say, but people are, in your words, delusional if the don't believe the almighty, uncorroborated, Rooster, whose beat cops know everything about the family but can't make a bust.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Thats not life dude. Wake up and allow people to connect whatever dots they want and deal with it. I seriously think you have some mental issues to continue this a month later and tell everyone basically they are idiots time and time again for feeling a certain way on not only what I say or anyone else but what you give them in published articles.

Your very first comment on this thread. VERY FIRST.
Was calling people DELUSIONAL for not believing your point of view.
Where is the double standard here? Are you that fucking ignorant?
Everything you are accusing me of doing is stuff you've been doing since the beginning of this thread.
So, I say to you:
That's not life, Rooster. Wake up and allow people to connect whatever dots they want and deal with it. Don't call people delusional if they don't believe your uncorrorborated bullshit story.
I seriously think you have some mental issues Rooster, to basically tell everyone they are "delusiona" for feeling a certain way on not only what I say, but what is backed up by feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

We dont believe you or your articles, do you understand?? Get a life.

And we don't believe you or your uncorrorborated, fictional, made-up, disproven, bullshit. Do you understand? Get a life.


And Rooster! Remember that if you want to properly reply to me, use the "quote" button like I have done. This way you can't miss anything I've written, just like I can't miss yours.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Good work Nickle, as weve gone over 100x, there is more than meets the eye, and a structure and viability.

Your logic is appreciated and understood from people who actually read books and understand the world.

Books by who?
Investigative journalists? Who, according to you, all have an agenda and are colluding to lie about the Buffalo mob? Yeah... Respond to this one...

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
You can continue on and on and on and on until you are blue in the face. Your not believed 100% just deal with it. Ive thrown girly insults because you act like a girl.

I didnt contradict myself because there is nothing to contradict. I didnt go back and review every post in 2016 and make sure it corroborates, Im just simply not lying and not misleading anyone.


@Nicky... People do learn an that causes people to change some of what they think and believe over time. We call that growth. My opinions are constantly evolving as I learn more... That doesn't make me a liar, because I don't believe everything I used to think in 2016.


I agree Nickle, and my opinions are constantly changing too.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
AGAIN Nicky, apples and oranges when trying to compare Scranton, Tampa, and New Orleans. Just cant compare, different beasts.

Why not, Roost? Do they have different rules to Buffalo?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Unless you ofcourse are saying that any of them are active? Do you have any other info on Tampa other than articles? and if so how can we believe you and that you simply arent just misleading because you are or arent from Tampa?


You know what? Despite what articles say, Tampa is still active. 60+ made members. Work with the cartel to traffic cocaine across America. Vin LoScalzo is head of the Commission. Steve Raffa faked his suicide and now lives under the name "Art Vandaley" and sells patio furniture. I heard it from reliable sources (beat cops and people in the know). These beat cops say they are trying to find new leads on this Vandaley guy because the patio furniture he sells is counterfeit. They also work with Raul Castro to smuggle guns to Cuba, just the Trafficantes conspired to do in the 50s.
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 07:45 PM

He cannot answer this

"CHECK-MATE"
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/11/18 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
He cannot answer this

"CHECK-MATE"













What?
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 12:46 AM

I for one just happen to appreciate a good debate.

I can see both sides I don't know that we can say for certain that anyone is 100% right or wrong.

I appreciate all the research you guys do I leared a lot THANK YOU.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nicky, you only see your side of the equation, I am not sure why you think your opinion counts more than anoyone else's

And because I have a different opinion than you do you try to insult me and call me names??

Maybe that helps you feel better about yourelf??? Whatever floats your boat
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by BensonHURST
I for one just happen to appreciate a good debate.

I can see both sides I don't know that we can say for certain that anyone is 100% right or wrong.

I appreciate all the research you guys do I leared a lot THANK YOU.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nicky, you only see your side of the equation, I am not sure why you think your opinion counts more than anoyone else's

And because I have a different opinion than you do you try to insult me and call me names??

Bensonhurst! It is not MY opinion. It is the opinion of the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists.
Why do you hold Rooster's opinion in such high prestige?

[/quote]
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 02:34 AM

By the way, Nickle.

The Black Hand chart you mentioned is not the same as 2006's FBI chart that was referenced in the Niagara Falls Reporter. Cheers to Wiseguy for pointing this out.

So, for the last time, we don't know whether Violi was on that list. Meaning that the argument the family was stronger than it seemed, or made guys post-2006, isn't accurate.

Based on what the feds say about the family, Violi was made pre-2006, and therefore is probably on the FBI's 2006 chart. For those who are about to accuse me of voicing "my opinion as fact," this is based on the FBI and others' view of the family post-2006.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
I for one just happen to appreciate a good debate.

I can see both sides I don't know that we can say for certain that anyone is 100% right or wrong.

I appreciate all the research you guys do I leared a lot THANK YOU.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nicky, you only see your side of the equation, I am not sure why you think your opinion counts more than anoyone else's

And because I have a different opinion than you do you try to insult me and call me names??

Bensonhurst! It is not MY opinion. It is the opinion of the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists.
Why do you hold Rooster's opinion in such high prestige?


[/quote]

Bensonhurst Nicky takes the opinion of the Feds who in turn feed their info/opinion to the papers/investigative reporters. And yes the Feds are right about a lot of things, so I understand why he has a hard time questioning them. But he did admit to questioning their complete validity when he admitted his opinion that the Todaro Family arrests in Canada logically suggest that 2006 FBI chart was very likely wrong, because it did not contain any of the arrest names listed in the Canadian papers. Therefore, I can safely say the Buffalo Crime Family was very likely larger, more organized, and more powerful than the FBI gave credit in 2006. ( I think deep down Nicky realizes this too. He did admit it is more likely that the Violi’s were made in the Buffalo Family, than the family making more members after 2006. This means the Buffalo Family had at least 2 active crews in Canada (Papalia and Luppino). [That’s in addition to the Utica, Nothside/The Falls, and the Westside/Buffalo crews suggested by the capos on the chart.] If the FBI missed the Violi’s or whoever was on the list of Todaro Family arrests in Canada, who knows how many other soldiers they missed. After all Cosa Nostra is a secret organization.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity


Bensonhurst Nicky takes the opinion of the Feds who in turn feed their info/opinion to the papers/investigative reporters. And yes the Feds are right about a lot of things, so I understand why he has a hard time questioning them. But he did admit to questioning their complete validity when he admitted his opinion that the Todaro Family arrests in Canada logically suggest that 2006 FBI chart was very likely wrong, because it did not contain any of the arrest names listed in the Canadian papers. Therefore, I can safely say the Buffalo Crime Family was very likely larger, more organized, and more powerful than the FBI gave credit in 2006. ( I think deep down Nicky realizes this too. He did admit it is more likely that the Violi’s were made in the Buffalo Family, than the family making more members after 2006. This means the Buffalo Family had at least 2 active crews in Canada (Papalia and Luppino). [That’s in addition to the Utica, Nothside/The Falls, and the Westside/Buffalo crews suggested by the capos on the chart.] If the FBI missed the Violi’s or whoever was on the list of Todaro Family arrests in Canada, who knows how many other soldiers they missed. After all Cosa Nostra is a secret organization.



Yes but, as I've recently discovered, we still have not seen the 2006 FBI chart, and it is not the one that was posted on Black Hand. So it's possible the Violis, at least one of them, was actually on that chart after all, or at least someone from those busts. Before select people on this forum berate me for having an opinion, I just have to add that I came to that conclusion based on the fact that the FBI has confirmed the family is dead, as in not making new members.

And Nickle, thanks for trying to write what I think "deep down," but I'd like Bensonhurst's own response to my comments please.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 05:22 AM

Nicky cites sources that are strong arguments, but he has now concentrated on me, since he feels he is hitting a brick wall. That stuff is supposed to not spill over from the Blackhand Forum. When it came out that the Canadians arrested members of the Todaro family, reliable sources said that quite a few people over at BH crapped their pants and many more were stunned. Figured sooner or later some of those fellows might come on here, I honestly thought Rooster was such a person. Nicky you registered in December of 17', but did not start posting till early February, then when this thread took off, you pounced on it. It was like you were waiting for this thread, of course you made plenty of references to the BH, which altogether leads to you having an agenda the whole time. What is it with Crusaders? They have a pure and honourable ideal or philosophy, but end up acting like assholes, even I am not above that, to prove a point. Am I saying I am better than anyone else? Hell no. I laugh cause there is irony in all of this, in the land of the blind, the one eye is king.

Back on topic. Buffalo family has been active, and said what I had to say on the family. Most people laugh at the members and say they only take in two bit hoods, when in actuality, they do bring in more sophisticated individuals, they roll with the times. NF, Utica, Buffalo, and Hamilton is still active. For the sake of the argument, let's wait until what is revealed in the Violi case, I don't think anyone is going to change their minds, BensonHURST is open minded.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Nicky cites sources that are strong arguments, but he has now concentrated on me, since he feels he is hitting a brick wall. That stuff is supposed to not spill over from the Blackhand Forum.

So all of the articles confirming the family is dead are allowed to be shredded apart by Rooster and Nickle, but the moment I question their validity (like the validity of YOU), you get all up and arms? Again, there needs to be a double standard. If Lee Coppola is a liar for calling the Buffalo mob "penniless," what does that make you?

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

When it came out that the Canadians arrested members of the Todaro family, reliable sources said that quite a few people over at BH crapped their pants and many more were stunned.

What? I'm on the Black Hand. I can read the thread... Nobody was crapping their pants, my friend, so your sources are off, just like the "sources" that told you Tony Mirra was out doing hits when he was in prison and out in big mob meetings. Just like your sources that told you Zirpoli was whacked in the Bonanno War. A lot more where that came from.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Figured sooner or later some of those fellows might come on here, I honestly thought Rooster was such a person. Nicky you registered in December of 17', but did not start posting till early February, then when this thread took off, you pounced on it.

Thanks for monitoring my posts. I don't see what it proves.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

It was like you were waiting for this thread, of course you made plenty of references to the BH, which altogether leads to you having an agenda the whole time.

Yes, I was waiting for this thread because I am part of the grand conspiracy to deny the existence of the Buffalo mob. Actually, I am on the payroll of Domenico Violi, who is paying me thousands to try and discredit any notion that he's in the Buffalo mob. You got me, the jig is up. I'm moving to South America tomorrow to go into hiding. Good investigative work, Giacomo.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

What is it with Crusaders? They have a pure and honourable ideal or philosophy, but end up acting like assholes, even I am not above that, to prove a point. Am I saying I am better than anyone else? Hell no. I laugh cause there is irony in all of this, in the land of the blind, the one eye is king.

Keep rambling buddy. I'm sure you've got a point somewhere in that mess.
The fact of the matter is, you were outed for lying and you admitted to lying. You lied for no apparent reason, other than to pretend you were in the know. Am I wrong?

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

Back on topic. Buffalo family has been active, and said what I had to say on the family. Most people laugh at the members and say they only take in two bit hoods, when in actuality, they do bring in more sophisticated individuals, they roll with the times.

Actually, my argument is not that they take in two-bit hoods. My argument is that they aren't taking in anyone. My argument is that there is no structure. No hierarchy. No active governance of the family. My argument is backed up by law enforcement, DAs, fed prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists. Your argument is based off your sketchy track record of lying.

Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari

NF, Utica, Buffalo, and Hamilton is still active. For the sake of the argument, let's wait until what is revealed in the Violi case, I don't think anyone is going to change their minds, BensonHURST is open minded.


Bensonhurst has not been open-minded from the get-go. Straight away he began offering wild theories as to how the family was able to survive and rebuild. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.
Posted By: BillyBrizzi

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 09:53 AM

Nicky my man, I don't know where you find the energy to keep this shit going with these people..
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by BillyBrizzi
Nicky my man, I don't know where you find the energy to keep this shit going with these people..


Neither...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 07:06 PM

The reason I ask for Rooster and Co. to specifically "quote" my comments when they reply is because some of them ignore parts of my posts, like when I constantly call Rooster out for commeding pmac's wrongful post. That sort of thing. So guys: If you're going to reply, "quote" my posts.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by BillyBrizzi
Nicky my man, I don't know where you find the energy to keep this shit going with these people..


Billy ...you accused me of nonsense earlier in this thread. I asked you what I said that was nonsensical and you never responded. I would still like an answer, please. BTW have you even read the whole thread or are you just commenting without knowledge of what has been said?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
By the way, Nickle.

The Black Hand chart you mentioned is not the same as 2006's FBI chart that was referenced in the Niagara Falls Reporter. Cheers to Wiseguy for pointing this out.

So, for the last time, we don't know whether Violi was on that list. Meaning that the argument the family was stronger than it seemed, or made guys post-2006, isn't accurate.

Based on what the feds say about the family, Violi was made pre-2006, and therefore is probably on the FBI's 2006 chart. For those who are about to accuse me of voicing "my opinion as fact," this is based on the FBI and others' view of the family post-2006.


@Nicky, You mentioned you didn’t remember seeing the Hamilton Papalia crew in the 2006 FBI chart earlier in this thread. When did you see that chart and where. I can’t find it anywhere and am beginning to wonder if it existed. You say the Niagara Falls Reporter referenced it? Can you give me a title and a date for that article? Maybe that info will help me track it down. Thank you!

How long does it take the FBI to respond to Freedom of Imformation Request and produce the document?
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/12/18 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[

Bensonhurst has not been open-minded from the get-go. Straight away he began offering wild theories as to how the family was able to survive and rebuild. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.


Just because he saw the logic of a point of view different from you own, you label him “not-open minded”? I guess you are allowed that opinion, but it seems rather illogical and thus unfair to me. If you remember, Benson has been open to both sides. At one point in this tread he mentioned your articles indicating something to the affect that he didn’t think we could refute these sources but would be open, then when we started with our info, he said something to the affect that he would do his own independence research and get back to us. Sounds pretty dang open-minded to me.

And this gets me to my gripe I’ve mentioned before... why people like you so dang self-righteous about your views that if anyone disagrees about Buffalo they are not open-minded and are some sort of mindless nubs... Very insulting. That is why we don’t drop it. We are sick of this!! I am!

So, please tell me what kind of mind numb idiot I am ... and I’ll be sure to drool with my tongue sticking out of my mouth and put an absent look on my face as I read your comment. Then I will take a selfie, post it on this board, so you can say see... this is what the guys who believe Buffalo are active are like. You will have a picture to prove you are right!
Posted By: SC

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 12:10 AM

Nickle, you've been here for all of three weeks and you've already managed to be a disruptive force on these boards. Stop with the infighting garbage now. That stuff might go over on your other board but leave it there. We all want to have fun here, not fighting.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by SC
Nickle, you've been here for all of three weeks and you've already managed to be a disruptive force on these boards. Stop with the infighting garbage now. That stuff might go over on your other board but leave it there. We all want to have fun here, not fighting.


@SC are you talking to me?

If you read this whole thread I have been very cordial and try to ge to people to play nice. This is my first rude and frustrated comment... There are plenty of rude ones on this thread alone. Please show me where I have been disruptive? I usually try to mediate between Rooster, Giacomo, and Nicky. So again show me where I have been disruptive and I will apologize. I apologize for the above comment, but I wonder why me sticking up for Bensonhurst is so wrong? Nicky is the one who called him not open-minded. And he clearly is open minded. I was only being rude, because I felt it was rude and unfair to accuse Bensonhurst of this, given his open mindedness in this thread.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 01:18 AM

&Nicky, I apologize for the previous post. I stuck up for you too, when I thought people on?were being unfair or rude to you as well. I did go to far in the previous post, but I am tired of the double standard where everyone who believes Buffalo is dead can say anything demeaning those who believe Buffalo is active as, argumentative, spammers, who keep the tread going too long, are dumb and closed-minded, but yet celebrate your tenaciousness as the guardian of truth, when you’ve kept the tread going and had some girly rude things to say too. Finally, I think it is interesting people come in with 1 line pop shots at Rooster, Giacomo, and now me, and then leave.. but never you. What is the one thing the 3 of us have in common? We think Buffalo is active.

Nicky, if you believe I’ve been disruptive and haven’t added to this conversation I will delete my posts and leave the board. Again, I am sorry. Update: ...I am a nub... can’t delete my old posts...
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
By the way, Nickle.

The Black Hand chart you mentioned is not the same as 2006's FBI chart that was referenced in the Niagara Falls Reporter. Cheers to Wiseguy for pointing this out.

So, for the last time, we don't know whether Violi was on that list. Meaning that the argument the family was stronger than it seemed, or made guys post-2006, isn't accurate.

Based on what the feds say about the family, Violi was made pre-2006, and therefore is probably on the FBI's 2006 chart. For those who are about to accuse me of voicing "my opinion as fact," this is based on the FBI and others' view of the family post-2006.


@Nicky, You mentioned you didn’t remember seeing the Hamilton Papalia crew in the 2006 FBI chart earlier in this thread. When did you see that chart and where. I can’t find it anywhere and am beginning to wonder if it existed. You say the Niagara Falls Reporter referenced it? Can you give me a title and a date for that article? Maybe that info will help me track it down. Thank you!

How long does it take the FBI to respond to Freedom of Imformation Request and produce the document?


The reason I don't think the Canadian crew is on that chart is because the reporter who referenced the chart said the Canadian crew was "as dead as charity." This was in response to Rooster claiming that the 2006 chart showed the Canadian crew. Again, let's have a double standard here. Rooster said the crew was on the chart (the chart he hasn't seen), and I said the Canadian crew is not on the chart because the reporter, Mike Hudson, said the Canadian crew was dead since 1997 and he seems to be the only one to have seen the chart.
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2012/Sep18/Hudson.html
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[

Bensonhurst has not been open-minded from the get-go. Straight away he began offering wild theories as to how the family was able to survive and rebuild. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.


Just because he saw the logic of a point of view different from you own, you label him “not-open minded”?

Read my post again. I outlined the reasons why Bensonhurst has not been open-minded, and it's not simply because he doesn't agree with me. I'll outline it again because you chose to ignore me. Bensonhurst has immediately started by offering wild theories as to why the family is alive. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

I guess you are allowed that opinion, but it seems rather illogical and thus unfair to me. If you remember, Benson has been open to both sides. At one point in this tread he mentioned your articles indicating something to the affect that he didn’t think we could refute these sources but would be open, then when we started with our info, he said something to the affect that he would do his own independence research and get back to us. Sounds pretty dang open-minded to me.

I remember bigfella said that, but I don't remember Bensonhurst saying that.
And by the way - what info have you guys presented that the family is still active? Remind me, because all of the articles you guys seem to have posted revolve around proving minute points about the Capitano Bros. or referencing a Musitano connection to the Papalia crew, which didn't indicate whether said crew was active or not.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

And this gets me to my gripe I’ve mentioned before... why people like you so dang self-righteous about your views that if anyone disagrees about Buffalo they are not open-minded and are some sort of mindless nubs... Very insulting. That is why we don’t drop it. We are sick of this!! I am!

I'm sick of the misinformation that Rooster spreads regarding his information. He says information as if it is pure fact. He does not differentiate street information with proven information. He actually had me believing that Brian Cohen was once a Nicoletti associate, but I later googled it and found ZERO info backing that up at all. It's the same tactic Giacomo uses, and is why people hang on to Giacomo's words even though he's a proven liar.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

So, please tell me what kind of mind numb idiot I am ... and I’ll be sure to drool with my tongue sticking out of my mouth and put an absent look on my face as I read your comment. Then I will take a selfie, post it on this board, so you can say see... this is what the guys who believe Buffalo are active are like. You will have a picture to prove you are right!


If you believe that the Buffalo crime family is active, and the sole reason for you believing so is that you honestly believe Rooster's imaginary beat cops are more trustworthy than the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists, than yes... there is something seriously, seriously wrong with your train of thought. If you don't view the feds as trustworthy, fine, but don't try and say that Rooster is some sort of accurate insider. The feds have a great track record and far better conviction rates than state and city cops (to the best of my knowledge). Rooster, on the other hand, has no proven track record whatsoever. Nothing. Nada.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by SC
Nickle, you've been here for all of three weeks and you've already managed to be a disruptive force on these boards. Stop with the infighting garbage now. That stuff might go over on your other board but leave it there. We all want to have fun here, not fighting.


@SC are you talking to me?

If you read this whole thread I have been very cordial and try to ge to people to play nice. This is my first rude and frustrated comment... There are plenty of rude ones on this thread alone. Please show me where I have been disruptive? I usually try to mediate between Rooster, Giacomo, and Nicky.

You've been actively trying to prove the Buffalo crime family is still active, whilst I am giving information to the contrary. You are on one side of the argument, I am on another. So no, you're not trying to mediate. You might be being more receptive to my arguments when compared to Rooster, and for that I am grateful, but there's no way in hell you're doing anything except trying to convince people the family is active.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

So again show me where I have been disruptive and I will apologize. I apologize for the above comment, but I wonder why me sticking up for Bensonhurst is so wrong? Nicky is the one who called him not open-minded. And he clearly is open minded. I was only being rude, because I felt it was rude and unfair to accuse Bensonhurst of this, given his open mindedness in this thread.

Open-minded... He's not from Buffalo and himself admits he doesn't know too much about what's going on there, but yet he is still offering wild theories as to why the family is still active, trying his utmost to refute my sources, agreeing with no-evidence Rooster, and simultaneously refusing to challenge Rooster's sources. Open-minded huh.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
&Nicky, I apologize for the previous post. I stuck up for you too, when I thought people on?were being unfair or rude to you as well. I did go to far in the previous post, but I am tired of the double standard where everyone who believes Buffalo is dead can say anything demeaning those who believe Buffalo is active as, argumentative, spammers, who keep the tread going too long, are dumb and closed-minded, but yet celebrate your tenaciousness as the guardian of truth, when you’ve kept the tread going and had some girly rude things to say too. Finally, I think it is interesting people come in with 1 line pop shots at Rooster, Giacomo, and now me, and then leave.. but never you. What is the one thing the 3 of us have in common? We think Buffalo is active.

Nicky, if you believe I’ve been disruptive and haven’t added to this conversation I will delete my posts and leave the board. Again, I am sorry. T

I, at least, am always trying to offer a constructive, backed-with-evidence arguments. There have been distinct periods in this thread where me and you or me and Bensonhurst have properly discussed the family's activity, and Rooster spends his time dropping 'girly' one-liners about me with personal insults (despite the fact he doesn't know me personally at all). Again, there's gotta be a double standard here.


I really don't think there isn't much to this argument now. Maybe in the future, when more information comes to light, we can post it here and discuss. But for now it comes down to what people WANT to people. Do they want to believe the FBI? Yes or no. Do they want to believe a proven and exposed liar (Giacomo)? Yes or no. Do they want to believe area investigative journalists? Yes or no. Do they want to believe a man who himself claims his sources are corrupt (Rooster)? Yes or no. It's exciting for people to hear that the Mafia in select cities is not only still alive, but thriving. People want to believe in grand conspiracies to prove the government, law enforcement and journalists are wrong.

If news comes out, if Violi goes to trial, if more articles come out, then we can discuss. I would like to now leave you with excerpts that Wiseguy on BH have noted:
"Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US News & World Report, 2000)
I count ten families there. Plus Miami, which is obviously open territory for all five families. But it's important to note that in 2000, the year of the report, the Trafficante family's Miami crew was busted, which could potentially be the eleventh family they are referring to.
Notice how Rooster didn't think I could compare Buffalo with the Trafficantes - "apples and oranges," he said. I don't know his reasoning behind that theory but I'd like to hear it.

"Within the LCN there are five principal crime families. Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US Congressional Report, 2010)
Nothing's changed now, but the Trafficantes are 100% dead by then.

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Lucchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes. (FBI website)
The FBI's website now rules the Detroit LCN as dead, which could very well be true considering the debatable state of things there. Scott B seemed to be the only person claiming the family was actually "powerful" there.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 02:35 AM

It's funny how all these senior members of the forums come to bud in on this debate, when it's for the most part a decent one, and not a sh@t show. These guys are helping to keep this site alive and provide an entertaining back and forth debate. I agree there's a little hostility that should be laid off on but it's really not out of control. Why don't you guys put some input on the discussion Instead of just criticizing other members for having a good discussion.
Posted By: Moscone65

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 02:35 AM

Watch me get a week ban for this or something.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 03:26 AM

@Nicky you are right, “There is something seriously wrong with my train of thought.” My logic was no logic at all. As Billy said I wake nonsensical. I am, also, disruptive SC puts it. The senior members of this board seem to be in agreeing that I am a brainless nub. I realize they are right. I had no good input. I am completely out of my league. I apologize wholeheartedly for wasting the time and of so many outstanding mob experts and taking up valuable space in this thread, indeed the entire board. This will be my last post. Again to the admins and senior mebers I have bothered so greatly. I am sorry. I will delete all my nonsensical post... and leave this one where I finally came to my senses.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by NickleCity
@Nicky you are right, “There is something seriously wrong with my train of thought.” My logic was no logic at all. As Billy said I wake nonsensical. I am, also, disruptive SC puts it. The senior members of this board seem to be in agreeing that I am a brainless nub. I realize they are right. I had no good input. I am completely out of my league. I apologize wholeheartedly for wasting the time and of so many outstanding mob experts and taking up valuable space in this thread, indeed the entire board. This will be my last post. Again to the admins and senior mebers I have bothered so greatly. I am sorry. I will delete all my nonsensical post... and leave this one where I finally came to my senses.


If this is your last post, so be it, but you (again) are not reading my post or are taking it out of context. You claim to have inside knowledge. There is no way of possibly knowing whether that's true unless you are either proven right or wrong. I am saying that when people "believe that the Buffalo crime family is active, and the sole reason for you believing so is that you honestly believe Rooster's imaginary beat cops are more trustworthy than the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists, than yes... there is something seriously, seriously wrong with your train of thought." - See?
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Moscone65
It's funny how all these senior members of the forums come to bud in on this debate, when it's for the most part a decent one, and not a sh@t show. These guys are helping to keep this site alive and provide an entertaining back and forth debate. I agree there's a little hostility that should be laid off on but it's really not out of control. Why don't you guys put some input on the discussion Instead of just criticizing other members for having a good discussion.


It's been an incredibly fun and insightful debate and I know a lot more about Buffalo than I used to. But I agree on the hostility front. A lot of it is my fault, but you gotta understand who started the hostility and has continued it ever since (Rooster).

Nickle - Thank you for offering good articles, good knowledge, and good insight. Of course we do have to agree to disagree on this one but, as much as you probably feel like I didn't, I really did listen to you and learn a lot from you. Can't say the same about Rooster and Giacomo, but eh.
Bensonhurst - Thank you for offering a different perspective, even though it seems your mind was set from the get-go...
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/13/18 10:48 PM

Good job Nicky qnd yet you still lost the argument based on you thinking people are liars. Feel bad for you, a lot of people Im sure do. And thats awesome Tampa is active, but again apples and oranges.Youll understand what that saying means some day. But until then, eh.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/14/18 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Good job Nicky qnd yet you still lost the argument based on you thinking people are liars.


Jesus Christ, here we go again:
To all newcomers to this forum, don't be deceived. Rooster hasn't won the argument. If he had won the argument, the argument would be over. It's not.
Rooster, actually explain how you won the argument. Before you claimed to have "torn apart" the articles I presented, but you didn't. Any time you have questioned my sources, I have issued a response. Explain to me in detail how you won this argument.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Feel bad for you, a lot of people Im sure do. And thats awesome Tampa is active, but again apples and oranges.Youll understand what that saying means some day. But until then, eh.


Again, Rooster shows a complete lack of comprehension when reading my post. Rooster. Read the post again carefully. The Trafficante crime family was still a viable family after the Buffalo mob had died. But now they are both dead.
Apples and oranges? How is the Buffalo mob and the Tampa mob apples and oranges? They're both Mafia families that are now deceased. Yes they are different families in different locations, but the same principles are there.
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 12:06 AM

so the winner is Nicky by default!
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by NickleCity
[quote=NickyfromTampa]By the way, Nickle.

The Black Hand chart you mentioned is not the same as 2006's FBI chart that was referenced in the Niagara Falls Reporter. Cheers to Wiseguy for pointing this out.

So, for the last time, we don't know whether Violi was on that list. Meaning that the argument the family was stronger than it seemed, or made guys post-2006, isn't accurate.

Based on what the feds say about the family, Violi was made pre-2006, and therefore is probably on the FBI's 2006 chart. For those who are about to accuse me of voicing "my opinion as fact," this is based on the FBI and others' view of the family post-2006.


@Nicky, You mentioned you didn’t remember seeing the Hamilton Papalia crew in the 2006 FBI chart earlier in this thread. When did you see that chart and where. I can’t find it anywhere and am beginning to wonder if it existed. You say the Niagara Falls Reporter referenced it? Can you give me a title and a date for that article? Maybe that info will help me track it down. Thank you!

How long does it take the FBI to respond to Freedom of Imformation Request and produce the document?


The reason I don't think the Canadian crew is on that chart is because the reporter who referenced the chart said the Canadian crew was "as dead as charity." This was in response to Rooster claiming that the 2006 chart showed the Canadian crew. Again, let's have a double standard here. Rooster said the crew was on the chart (the chart he hasn't seen), and I said the Canadian crew is not on the chart because the reporter, Mike Hudson, said the Canadian crew was dead since 1997 and he seems to be the only one to have seen the chart.
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2012/Sep18/Hudson.html
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[

Bensonhurst has not been open-minded from the get-go. Straight away he began offering wild theories as to how the family was able to survive and rebuild. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.


Just because he saw the logic of a point of view different from you own, you label him “not-open minded”?

Read my post again. I outlined the reasons why Bensonhurst has not been open-minded, and it's not simply because he doesn't agree with me. I'll outline it again because you chose to ignore me. Bensonhurst has immediately started by offering wild theories as to why the family is alive. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

I guess you are allowed that opinion, but it seems rather illogical and thus unfair to me. If you remember, Benson has been open to both sides. At one point in this tread he mentioned your articles indicating something to the affect that he didn’t think we could refute these sources but would be open, then when we started with our info, he said something to the affect that he would do his own independence research and get back to us. Sounds pretty dang open-minded to me.

I remember bigfella said that, but I don't remember Bensonhurst saying that.
And by the way - what info have you guys presented that the family is still active? Remind me, because all of the articles you guys seem to have posted revolve around proving minute points about the Capitano Bros. or referencing a Musitano connection to the Papalia crew, which didn't indicate whether said crew was active or not.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

And this gets me to my gripe I’ve mentioned before... why people like you so dang self-righteous about your views that if anyone disagrees about Buffalo they are not open-minded and are some sort of mindless nubs... Very insulting. That is why we don’t drop it. We are sick of this!! I am!

I'm sick of the misinformation that Rooster spreads regarding his information. He says information as if it is pure fact. He does not differentiate street information with proven information. He actually had me believing that Brian Cohen was once a Nicoletti associate, but I later googled it and found ZERO info backing that up at all. It's the same tactic Giacomo uses, and is why people hang on to Giacomo's words even though he's a proven liar.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

So, please tell me what kind of mind numb idiot I am ... and I’ll be sure to drool with my tongue sticking out of my mouth and put an absent look on my face as I read your comment. Then I will take a selfie, post it on this board, so you can say see... this is what the guys who believe Buffalo are active are like. You will have a picture to prove you are right!


If you believe that the Buffalo crime family is active, and the sole reason for you believing so is that you honestly believe Rooster's imaginary beat cops are more trustworthy than the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists, than yes... there is something seriously, seriously wrong with your train of thought. If you don't view the feds as trustworthy, fine, but don't try and say that Rooster is some sort of accurate insider. The feds have a great track record and far better conviction rates than state and city cops (to the best of my knowledge). Rooster, on the other hand, has no proven track record whatsoever. Nothing. Nada.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by SC
Nickle, you've been here for all of three weeks and you've already managed to be a disruptive force on these boards. Stop with the infighting garbage now. That stuff might go over on your other board but leave it there. We all want to have fun here, not fighting.


@SC are you talking to me?

If you read this whole thread I have been very cordial and try to ge to people to play nice. This is my first rude and frustrated comment... There are plenty of rude ones on this thread alone. Please show me where I have been disruptive? I usually try to mediate between Rooster, Giacomo, and Nicky.

You've been actively trying to prove the Buffalo crime family is still active, whilst I am giving information to the contrary. You are on one side of the argument, I am on another. So no, you're not trying to mediate. You might be being more receptive to my arguments when compared to Rooster, and for that I am grateful, but there's no way in hell you're doing anything except trying to convince people the family is active.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

So again show me where I have been disruptive and I will apologize. I apologize for the above comment, but I wonder why me sticking up for Bensonhurst is so wrong? Nicky is the one who called him not open-minded. And he clearly is open minded. I was only being rude, because I felt it was rude and unfair to accuse Bensonhurst of this, given his open mindedness in this thread.

Open-minded... He's not from Buffalo and himself admits he doesn't know too much about what's going on there, but yet he is still offering wild theories as to why the family is still active, trying his utmost to refute my sources, agreeing with no-evidence Rooster, and simultaneously refusing to challenge Rooster's sources. Open-minded huh.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
&Nicky, I apologize for the previous post. I stuck up for you too, when I thought people on?were being unfair or rude to you as well. I did go to far in the previous post, but I am tired of the double standard where everyone who believes Buffalo is dead can say anything demeaning those who believe Buffalo is active as, argumentative, spammers, who keep the tread going too long, are dumb and closed-minded, but yet celebrate your tenaciousness as the guardian of truth, when you’ve kept the tread going and had some girly rude things to say too. Finally, I think it is interesting people come in with 1 line pop shots at Rooster, Giacomo, and now me, and then leave.. but never you. What is the one thing the 3 of us have in common? We think Buffalo is active.

Nicky, if you believe I’ve been disruptive and haven’t added to this conversation I will delete my posts and leave the board. Again, I am sorry. T

I, at least, am always trying to offer a constructive, backed-with-evidence arguments. There have been distinct periods in this thread where me and you or me and Bensonhurst have properly discussed the family's activity, and Rooster spends his time dropping 'girly' one-liners about me with personal insults (despite the fact he doesn't know me personally at all). Again, there's gotta be a double standard here.


I really don't think there isn't much to this argument now. Maybe in the future, when more information comes to light, we can post it here and discuss. But for now it comes down to what people WANT to people. Do they want to believe the FBI? Yes or no. Do they want to believe a proven and exposed liar (Giacomo)? Yes or no. Do they want to believe area investigative journalists? Yes or no. Do they want to believe a man who himself claims his sources are corrupt (Rooster)? Yes or no. It's exciting for people to hear that the Mafia in select cities is not only still alive, but thriving. People want to believe in grand conspiracies to prove the government, law enforcement and journalists are wrong.

If news comes out, if Violi goes to trial, if more articles come out, then we can discuss. I would like to now leave you with excerpts that Wiseguy on BH have noted:
"Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US News & World Report, 2000)
I count ten families there. Plus Miami, which is obviously open territory for all five families. But it's important to note that in 2000, the year of the report, the Trafficante family's Miami crew was busted, which could potentially be the eleventh family they are referring to.
Notice how Rooster didn't think I could compare Buffalo with the Trafficantes - "apples and oranges," he said. I don't know his reasoning behind that theory but I'd like to hear it.

"Within the LCN there are five principal crime families. Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US Congressional Report, 2010)
Nothing's changed now, but the Trafficantes are 100% dead by then.

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Lucchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes. (FBI website)
The FBI's website now rules the Detroit LCN as dead, which could very well be true considering the debatable state of things there. Scott B seemed to be the only person claiming the family was actually "powerful" there.[/quote


he smashed the rooster
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 02:27 AM

buffalino area in scranton pa rite. breaking news bertuccis going bankrupt not bad food for a chain. back to scranton besides dunder mifflin ive read john gotti sr and his brothers who i think live out there is it richie theres a few gotti out that way. didnt sr. own a ranch out that way . and a guy iggy ag.......... its a 2 hr drive to nyc theres people out there i dont no if there made guys from buffalinos days. he was pretty powerfull the genovese would work heavy with him in the early part of 70tys. good book on him and tons of merry fereell shit. his family was tiny im guessing 20 guys at the peak tons of assciates. here they come to snuff the rooster yayayay. respect everyones opion or post unless wayoff.
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 02:28 AM

i take it the big guy who fliped is probaly doing all the shit he did before working with the fbi d'elia
Posted By: pmac

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 02:31 AM

i wanna go to the poconos sick of new england upsate ny was last summer that place was nice up past lake george some huge gorge. they call it the grand canyon past the missipippi. almost near the ca border. wwooo.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Jeremythejew
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
By the way, Nickle.

The Black Hand chart you mentioned is not the same as 2006's FBI chart that was referenced in the Niagara Falls Reporter. Cheers to Wiseguy for pointing this out.

So, for the last time, we don't know whether Violi was on that list. Meaning that the argument the family was stronger than it seemed, or made guys post-2006, isn't accurate.

Based on what the feds say about the family, Violi was made pre-2006, and therefore is probably on the FBI's 2006 chart. For those who are about to accuse me of voicing "my opinion as fact," this is based on the FBI and others' view of the family post-2006.


@Nicky, You mentioned you didn’t remember seeing the Hamilton Papalia crew in the 2006 FBI chart earlier in this thread. When did you see that chart and where. I can’t find it anywhere and am beginning to wonder if it existed. You say the Niagara Falls Reporter referenced it? Can you give me a title and a date for that article? Maybe that info will help me track it down. Thank you!

How long does it take the FBI to respond to Freedom of Imformation Request and produce the document?


The reason I don't think the Canadian crew is on that chart is because the reporter who referenced the chart said the Canadian crew was "as dead as charity." This was in response to Rooster claiming that the 2006 chart showed the Canadian crew. Again, let's have a double standard here. Rooster said the crew was on the chart (the chart he hasn't seen), and I said the Canadian crew is not on the chart because the reporter, Mike Hudson, said the Canadian crew was dead since 1997 and he seems to be the only one to have seen the chart.
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2012/Sep18/Hudson.html
http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Jan8/TodaroNicoletti.html

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
[

Bensonhurst has not been open-minded from the get-go. Straight away he began offering wild theories as to how the family was able to survive and rebuild. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.


Just because he saw the logic of a point of view different from you own, you label him “not-open minded”?

Read my post again. I outlined the reasons why Bensonhurst has not been open-minded, and it's not simply because he doesn't agree with me. I'll outline it again because you chose to ignore me. Bensonhurst has immediately started by offering wild theories as to why the family is alive. He was quick to discredit every single one of the many people who say the family is not active. When I asked him about Rooster's imaginary sources, he claimed he didn't want to get involved with challenging Rooster's sources. He keeps trying to reach a "middle ground" to resolve the argument, but each of his "compromises" has him arguing the family is still active.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

I guess you are allowed that opinion, but it seems rather illogical and thus unfair to me. If you remember, Benson has been open to both sides. At one point in this tread he mentioned your articles indicating something to the affect that he didn’t think we could refute these sources but would be open, then when we started with our info, he said something to the affect that he would do his own independence research and get back to us. Sounds pretty dang open-minded to me.

I remember bigfella said that, but I don't remember Bensonhurst saying that.
And by the way - what info have you guys presented that the family is still active? Remind me, because all of the articles you guys seem to have posted revolve around proving minute points about the Capitano Bros. or referencing a Musitano connection to the Papalia crew, which didn't indicate whether said crew was active or not.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

And this gets me to my gripe I’ve mentioned before... why people like you so dang self-righteous about your views that if anyone disagrees about Buffalo they are not open-minded and are some sort of mindless nubs... Very insulting. That is why we don’t drop it. We are sick of this!! I am!

I'm sick of the misinformation that Rooster spreads regarding his information. He says information as if it is pure fact. He does not differentiate street information with proven information. He actually had me believing that Brian Cohen was once a Nicoletti associate, but I later googled it and found ZERO info backing that up at all. It's the same tactic Giacomo uses, and is why people hang on to Giacomo's words even though he's a proven liar.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

So, please tell me what kind of mind numb idiot I am ... and I’ll be sure to drool with my tongue sticking out of my mouth and put an absent look on my face as I read your comment. Then I will take a selfie, post it on this board, so you can say see... this is what the guys who believe Buffalo are active are like. You will have a picture to prove you are right!


If you believe that the Buffalo crime family is active, and the sole reason for you believing so is that you honestly believe Rooster's imaginary beat cops are more trustworthy than the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, proven mob experts, and investigative journalists, than yes... there is something seriously, seriously wrong with your train of thought. If you don't view the feds as trustworthy, fine, but don't try and say that Rooster is some sort of accurate insider. The feds have a great track record and far better conviction rates than state and city cops (to the best of my knowledge). Rooster, on the other hand, has no proven track record whatsoever. Nothing. Nada.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by SC
Nickle, you've been here for all of three weeks and you've already managed to be a disruptive force on these boards. Stop with the infighting garbage now. That stuff might go over on your other board but leave it there. We all want to have fun here, not fighting.


@SC are you talking to me?

If you read this whole thread I have been very cordial and try to ge to people to play nice. This is my first rude and frustrated comment... There are plenty of rude ones on this thread alone. Please show me where I have been disruptive? I usually try to mediate between Rooster, Giacomo, and Nicky.

You've been actively trying to prove the Buffalo crime family is still active, whilst I am giving information to the contrary. You are on one side of the argument, I am on another. So no, you're not trying to mediate. You might be being more receptive to my arguments when compared to Rooster, and for that I am grateful, but there's no way in hell you're doing anything except trying to convince people the family is active.

Originally Posted by NickleCity

So again show me where I have been disruptive and I will apologize. I apologize for the above comment, but I wonder why me sticking up for Bensonhurst is so wrong? Nicky is the one who called him not open-minded. And he clearly is open minded. I was only being rude, because I felt it was rude and unfair to accuse Bensonhurst of this, given his open mindedness in this thread.

Open-minded... He's not from Buffalo and himself admits he doesn't know too much about what's going on there, but yet he is still offering wild theories as to why the family is still active, trying his utmost to refute my sources, agreeing with no-evidence Rooster, and simultaneously refusing to challenge Rooster's sources. Open-minded huh.

Originally Posted by NickleCity
&Nicky, I apologize for the previous post. I stuck up for you too, when I thought people on?were being unfair or rude to you as well. I did go to far in the previous post, but I am tired of the double standard where everyone who believes Buffalo is dead can say anything demeaning those who believe Buffalo is active as, argumentative, spammers, who keep the tread going too long, are dumb and closed-minded, but yet celebrate your tenaciousness as the guardian of truth, when you’ve kept the tread going and had some girly rude things to say too. Finally, I think it is interesting people come in with 1 line pop shots at Rooster, Giacomo, and now me, and then leave.. but never you. What is the one thing the 3 of us have in common? We think Buffalo is active.

Nicky, if you believe I’ve been disruptive and haven’t added to this conversation I will delete my posts and leave the board. Again, I am sorry. T

I, at least, am always trying to offer a constructive, backed-with-evidence arguments. There have been distinct periods in this thread where me and you or me and Bensonhurst have properly discussed the family's activity, and Rooster spends his time dropping 'girly' one-liners about me with personal insults (despite the fact he doesn't know me personally at all). Again, there's gotta be a double standard here.


I really don't think there isn't much to this argument now. Maybe in the future, when more information comes to light, we can post it here and discuss. But for now it comes down to what people WANT to people. Do they want to believe the FBI? Yes or no. Do they want to believe a proven and exposed liar (Giacomo)? Yes or no. Do they want to believe area investigative journalists? Yes or no. Do they want to believe a man who himself claims his sources are corrupt (Rooster)? Yes or no. It's exciting for people to hear that the Mafia in select cities is not only still alive, but thriving. People want to believe in grand conspiracies to prove the government, law enforcement and journalists are wrong.

If news comes out, if Violi goes to trial, if more articles come out, then we can discuss. I would like to now leave you with excerpts that Wiseguy on BH have noted:
"Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US News & World Report, 2000)
I count ten families there. Plus Miami, which is obviously open territory for all five families. But it's important to note that in 2000, the year of the report, the Trafficante family's Miami crew was busted, which could potentially be the eleventh family they are referring to.
Notice how Rooster didn't think I could compare Buffalo with the Trafficantes - "apples and oranges," he said. I don't know his reasoning behind that theory but I'd like to hear it.

"Within the LCN there are five principal crime families. Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami." (US Congressional Report, 2010)
Nothing's changed now, but the Trafficantes are 100% dead by then.

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Lucchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes. (FBI website)
The FBI's website now rules the Detroit LCN as dead, which could very well be true considering the debatable state of things there. Scott B seemed to be the only person claiming the family was actually "powerful" there.



he smashed the rooster


Cheers Jeremy. It comes to down to evidence & logic vs. no evidence and no logic.
Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 08:53 AM

Nickle and Rooster, you hear about Papa John's up there is Buffalo? Maybe Joe Jr, made them an offer they couldn't refuse? No it is just Joe's pizzas are better quality and satisfying.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 10:19 AM

Yea I guess Vincent Loscalzo is the new boss of the Papa Johns family on the Gulf Coast too
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 03:25 PM

notice how they revert to lame jokes when they have nothing left to argue bc there whole argument was just as bad as the song he named himself after
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 03:31 PM

Everyones already exhausted their input and now you come in to pick apart a carcass like a vulture. Only thing lame is your timing and intent
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 03:32 PM

Now tell us about the Jews Jeremy
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/16/18 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Jeremythejew
notice how they revert to lame jokes when they have nothing left to argue bc there whole argument was just as bad as the song he named himself after


Good point. He's been hassling me for one post I made pages and pages ago - that's what his argument is based around. It's the mark of a bad poster to bring up some completely unrelated topic instead of the argument at hand. I asked him why he kept hanging on to the Vincent LoScalzo and whether that helped his argument in any way and he said:
"Because its apples and oranges and to bring guys like Loscalzo and Delia into the same comparison as modern day Buffalo is ridiculous in my opinion."
So... why do you keep making lame LoScalzo jokes? Still not answering the question AT ALL. I ask why he brings up LoScalzo and is always reverting back to same LoScalzo jokes and this is his answer. He's great at dodging questions, he'd make a great politician.
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Everyones already exhausted their input and now you come in to pick apart a carcass like a vulture. Only thing lame is your timing and intent


okay well if u noticed i did not participate in the argument. i strictly came in at the END and declared the winner.
that is all.
what about the jews?
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 03:55 AM

the thing is i didnt wanna partake in this argument bc i think its pretty stupid to argue w ppl that wont provide sources etc.

but to then see ppl actually start believing this crap is sad. and i feel for the mob noob. and i was let down bc i thought bensonHURST was gonna be a good poster.
....well.... enough said on that.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Jeremythejew
the thing is i didnt wanna partake in this argument bc i think its pretty stupid to argue w ppl that wont provide sources etc.

but to then see ppl actually start believing this crap is sad. and i feel for the mob noob. and i was let down bc i thought bensonHURST was gonna be a good poster.
....well.... enough said on that.



Well put, Jeremy. Evidence VS. No Evidence.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 10:15 AM

I answered all your questions Loscalzo. Just because you dont believe the answers doesnt mean they werent answered. Please reread every question of yours I put in its separate box and then answered. You clearly didnt pay attention. The evidence has and always will be there from your articles that are littered with contradictions, to your law enforcement agents who flat out lie to push their own own agena, to the bust last year where its clear as day that members of the Todaro Crime Family were arrested.

And yes Jeremy we all give you credit for being a judge at the end and declaring a winner. Great example of your attempt to ride coat tails after stalking a thread for a month and not saying anything because you know nothing other than what someone else tells you to be true. God knows you are the highest authority with zero input on many topics since youve joined in 2013 and when it comes to the Jews, you are claiming to be one right? So inform the forum here with some useful information about Jews that we all might be interested in. Im being sincere, me personally would like to know the stance on Gangsterism from a Jew.

So again, what are questions Loscalzo? We can do this one more time if youd like to help you get through these tough, confusing times in Tampa.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Good job Nicky qnd yet you still lost the argument based on you thinking people are liars.


Jesus Christ, here we go again:
To all newcomers to this forum, don't be deceived. Rooster hasn't won the argument. If he had won the argument, the argument would be over. It's not.
Rooster, actually explain how you won the argument. Before you claimed to have "torn apart" the articles I presented, but you didn't. Any time you have questioned my sources, I have issued a response. Explain to me in detail how you won this argument.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Feel bad for you, a lot of people Im sure do. And thats awesome Tampa is active, but again apples and oranges.Youll understand what that saying means some day. But until then, eh.


Again, Rooster shows a complete lack of comprehension when reading my post. Rooster. Read the post again carefully. The Trafficante crime family was still a viable family after the Buffalo mob had died. But now they are both dead.
Apples and oranges? How is the Buffalo mob and the Tampa mob apples and oranges? They're both Mafia families that are now deceased. Yes they are different families in different locations, but the same principles are there.


You didn't answer this one, Roost.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 12:39 PM

Buffalo has always been a stronger and more active family historically. Maggadino had power like a boss of the five families did. Commission type power.

Buffalo has an international crew in Canada to date.

Delia and Loscalzo are broksters if you were to compare them to Todaro Sr or Jr

Scranton answered to Buffalo at one point.

Delia flipped, no boss in Buffalo ever flipped.

Since 1987 Florida has been open to all the families.

Buffalo is still active today in my opinion and even if we go by your evidence they are dead, Buffalo stayed alive way past Tampa and Scranton did.

Apples and Oranges.

You said I didnt answer questions, plural, so Loscalzo what other questions didnt I answer?
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 05:54 PM

besides discussing jews... which ig if u wanna make a thread on Jewish gangsters thats be cool
but anyways


so what do we know about the luppinos?
were they Ndrangheta?

maybe we can flip this around a little and make it informative!

when did scranton answer to buffalo? were they the same at one point?
one can make a point of view of how they became much weaker later hence all the split offs from them
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 06:47 PM

There is no evidence of anything, its all speculative, subjective, ambiguous, convoluted, and misinterpreted
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 07:27 PM

wow.

so u cant have a real conv about history? only argumentative non proveable stuff
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 07:35 PM

Luppinos info is given by several posters throughout this thread.

Maggadino mentored Bufalino and in my assertion Scranton answered to Buffalo during that time based on that and Bufalinos connection to Upstater Barbara.

What is your input?
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 07:48 PM

im more interested in where luppinos came from bc idk much bout them hence i asked.

buffalo i believe got pretty unstable the later half of maggadino reign. his own fam were turning on him
as well as rochester tells him that they no longer answer to them.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 07:52 PM

Every family faces instability after a long tenured boss dies, flips or becomes incarcerated, at varying levels ofcourse. Todaro Sr. did bring stability to the family however soon after.

I believe Giacomo identifies where in Italy the Luppinos are from in this thread somewhere
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/17/18 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
There is no evidence of anything, its all speculative, subjective, ambiguous, convoluted, and misinterpreted


All of those adjectives sum up your argument completely. Speculative, subjective, ambiguous, convoluted and misinterpreted.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Buffalo has always been a stronger and more active family historically. Maggadino had power like a boss of the five families did. Commission type power.

Buffalo has an international crew in Canada to date.

The issue I have with you is not the street talk itself, but the lack of separation between street talk and fact. "Buffalo has an international crew in Canada to date." That is purely street talk. Speculative. Ambiguous.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Delia and Loscalzo are broksters if you were to compare them to Todaro Sr or Jr

You wrote off Lee Coppola as a liar for saying the Buffalo mob was penniless in the late 90s, but you're willing to say LoScalzo was penniless?
WHERE'S THE DOUBLE STANDARD?
LoScalzo has been a liquor industry mogul since the 60s, essentially RAN a local bank and was able to take out loans without any pressure to repay on time, had an oil filter scam which netted hundreds of thousands of dollars, received a hundred-thousand dollar salary at a large dodgy car retailer with locations all across Florida, allegedly had politicians and sheriffs on his payroll, loansharking, has a high-ranking position at a wealthy country club, and has dabbled in real estate starting in the 2010s.

So... Lee Coppola's a liar for calling the Buffalo mob 'penniless,' which really is true when you consider all of the rackets they had taken off them. Gambling dried up, loansharking by extension, union connection was completely severed, etc. But somehow LoScalzo's a brokester "compared to Todaro Sr or Jr."

Originally Posted by The_Rooster


Scranton answered to Buffalo at one point.

Delia flipped, no boss in Buffalo ever flipped.

Since 1987 Florida has been open to all the families.

Buffalo is still active today in my opinion and even if we go by your evidence they are dead, Buffalo stayed alive way past Tampa and Scranton did.

Ok, here we go. You've just shown that you've disregarded what I've been posting so far. Why is there any point communicating with you if you're going to ignore what I've posted anyways?
I'm arguing Buffalo was no longer a viable criminal enterprise by the late 90s/early 00s. There may have been some residual activity after that, which slowly died out.
That is the same with Tampa.
So the argument that "even if we go by your evidence they are dead, Buffalo stayed alive way past Tampa" did, is wrong. And you know it.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Apples and Oranges.

You said I didnt answer questions, plural, so Loscalzo what other questions didnt I answer?


Are your beat cop sources who you talked to in bars (and are also potentially corrupt and related to some Buffalo mob members), more reliable than these people:
FBI
Federal prosecutors
District Attorneys
Investigative Journalists
Proven mob experts
?

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Just because you say it doesnt mean its the truth, just like everyone else on here and what they post.

That's the most ironic thing you've said this entire thread.
For people to believe you, means that have to believe solely, 100% on your word, your corroborated word, alone. Right? Do you agree? Rooster, I'd like you to respond to this one. Because YES, just because I say something DOES NOT mean it's true. This is why I offer sources, evidence, references. You do NONE of that. You expect people to rely SOLELY on your word alone. And you can say "Nickle and Giacomo agree with me" but you still have facts and information that neither of those can corrorborate.
So, again, just because I say something, doesn't mean it's the truth.
But here's the thing:
Just because YOU say something, doesn't mean it's the truth.
If you want to call me out, look in the fuckin mirror. Because Bensonhurst and others around here seem to think you are some sort of expert on subjects, even though you have no proof in the vast majority of your claims about the family.
And here's the worst part about this. Even though you offer no proof (and you scoffed at me when I asked for proof as if it was some unheard-of concept), you still think people HAVE to believe you. Because, according to you, they're delusional if they don't believe. How does that work? Again, Rooster, if you're going to respond to anything, respond to this.

You haven't answered or responded to this.
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Giacomo may have admitted to lying but he knows a lot of random things that have happened.

None of which either he or you can prove.
And if he admits to lying, for no apparent reason, why do you hold him on such a pedastal? But not Coppola? Just because Coppola used the wrong adjective ONCE in his article, you scrap away any respect you had for him even though he is not only acclaimed, he is well-researched. But when Giacomo admits to lying and lies on multiple occasions for no apparent reason, that doesn't occur to you as odd?
Giacomo is a resident bullshitter. How often does he bullshit? That is impossible to determine because, like everything he says about Buffalo, there is no way to offer proof for/against at the moment.
But the fact that he has been caught lying on multiple occasions should be enough to quickly scrap his credibility. And the worst part is, he hasn't even been proven RIGHT on anything "street talk" he puts out.

You didn't respond to this.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Good work Nickle, as weve gone over 100x, there is more than meets the eye, and a structure and viability.

Your logic is appreciated and understood from people who actually read books and understand the world.

Books by who?
Investigative journalists? Who, according to you, all have an agenda and are colluding to lie about the Buffalo mob? Yeah... Respond to this one...[/quote]
You never responded to this one.

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Wait a second, Nicky can keep rambling at the mouth for a whole other month?? Shocking. I won in the sense I made my points over and over, refuted yours, gave yoy answers,

Answers that don't make any fucking sense. But sure, keep believing that LE is on a grand conspiracy to cover up the Buffalo mob but your imaginary self-professed corrupt beat cops are somehow in the know.

And no, you didn't "refute" my articles, apart from saying Coppola is a liar for calling the Buffalo mob in 1998 "penniless." One comment, taken out of context, in an entire article describing the mob's demise. That's enough for you to prove he's lying apparently.
Well, since you've got such a high standing of truth, why did you try and say the FBI didn't use the name "Todaro crime family" before 2017? Because that's a bald-faced lie. And why did you commend pmac on making a "good point" when he claimed the feds had called Violi the underboss, when that is also a bald-faced lie.
And why do you chose to believe Giacomo, when he was caught, and admitted to, lying about the murders that Tony Mirra committted. This is one of Giacomo's many confessed lies.

You didn't respond to this.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 12:57 AM

Nicky, I have finally seen the light and now know that what you say is to be considered the truth. I apologize dearly for every going against you. You are simply too much to argue against, a stellar and impressive debater.

Oh wait, I dont mean any of that.

Answer me this question, do you ever get bored with your obsessive compulsive disorder or has it taken so many different shapes and forms in this last month that it turns into more of a weird homo erotic fetish that you then transcend onto me through pretending to know about Buffalo because you read a few articles? keeping you occupied and content?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 12:58 AM

Investigative journalists lol right
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 01:20 AM

So I guess we're all in agreement that Rooster's got nothing to stand on now?

Rooster asks me what he hasn't responded to. I show him some of the things he hasn't responded to. He gets defensive, since he knows damn well he ignored those previous posts for a reason, and then starts babbling in a furious rage about homo erotica and obsessive compulsive disorder.

Roost, give it up. There are fundamental holes in your theory that I've pointed out, that you have consistently refused to answer. I've tried to respond to all of your posts by quoting them and breaking them down. You pick and choose what you want to reply to, and then start foaming at the mouth when I call back on some of the posts of mine you ignored.
Posted By: Jeremythejew

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
So I guess we're all in agreement that Rooster's got nothing to stand on now?

Rooster asks me what he hasn't responded to. I show him some of the things he hasn't responded to. He gets defensive, since he knows damn well he ignored those previous posts for a reason, and then starts babbling in a furious rage about homo erotica and obsessive compulsive disorder.

Roost, give it up. There are fundamental holes in your theory that I've pointed out, that you have consistently refused to answer. I've tried to respond to all of your posts by quoting them and breaking them down. You pick and choose what you want to reply to, and then start foaming at the mouth when I call back on some of the posts of mine you ignored.



personally it upsets me he can't even talk about history which can be really discussed intelligently.
but yes
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 05:07 PM

Nothing to give up Nicky, you lost weeks ago. When not everyone believes your articles and believe my logic. Get it? Ofcourse you dont. Ive answered enough of your questions for you to know my answers to any new questions you may bring up. Anyone can pick apart an answer, yours have easily been picked apart by 3 others on this thread. I answer a question and you tell me its wrong. You answer my question and I tell you its wrong. Im not foaming at the mouth about anything, you just cant see past what you see, get it? No, ofcourse you dont. You dont see logic. Reread what Nickle said when it comes to ideology and interepretation and logic you might learn something. We can keep this going for another month, youve been easy pickings since the jump as far as Im concerned.
Posted By: WhackWhack

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 05:09 PM

Well, on a related but different note, is anyone else really excited to see Joe Pesci play Russell Bufalino in the Irishmen?!?

This is gonna be a Departed/Goodfellas level masterpiece.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 07:04 PM

Very excited....has Maggadino been added to the cast?
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 07:39 PM

@ Nicky, I dont know or care who Tony Mirra is, and Im not holding Giacomo accountable for something he thought or read incorrectly and believing he is a full blown liar about everything. You are more than welcome too.

When Coppola said "Penniless", he should have meant it because its a strong word. He didnt say penniless compared to what the family was or relative to modern times. Its an exaggeration if fact or a flat out lie. He used it to be exploitative and presume something didnt know. Hes a quote on quote author and a professor right? Then for the sake of his journalistic credibility he shouldnt have used that word but he did, so the fact that he did makes me think he is a liar and other parts of his story are misinforming and misleading. Get it? No, ofcourse you dont.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 07:41 PM

And again, in my opinion, trying to compare Buffalo to Tampa and Scranton is ridiculous. Apples and oranges. That is my opinion and Ive given you the reasons why I believe this. Get it? No, ofcourse you dont.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 07:42 PM

Ive answered all your questions, you just adapt the same question so that maybe one of my new answers fits your narrative better. Get it? No, ofcourse you dont.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 07:44 PM

I never said any beat cops I know are related to mob members. Dont put words in my mouth, that makes you a liar. Insinuating I wrote that is a feeble attempt to continue to try and discredit me. Get it? No, ofcourse you dont.
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 07:44 PM

Is this thread still going ? And this guy still spamming 5 posts in a row?! This is ridiculous
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 08:07 PM

Totally Strax, thanks for checking in. Good to see you still are invested and answered none if the questions that were asked of you weeks ago.
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 08:15 PM

I don't read a thing you post,i just saw this thread is now 30 pages, come in and see you again spamming 5 posts in a row instead of using "Edit" button.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 08:19 PM

Well, thats a lie. You read many of posts I wrote based on your earlier responses in this thread, admitted to reading my "spamming" posts and now just read my last post.

And yes, I did not use the edit button, youre very observant and youre as irrelevant to my etiquette as I am to yours. Is that comprehensible for you? I didnt think so.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 08:20 PM

Almost as much of a lie as you being from the Balkans
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 08:24 PM

I am from Belgrade,Serbia. I am not going to discuss anything with you,because you keep claiming your bullshit over and over again. Thanks god you are not member on any other forum of this type,oh yes you would been banned from every.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Nothing to give up Nicky, you lost weeks ago. When not everyone believes your articles and believe my logic. Get it? Ofcourse you dont. Ive answered enough of your questions for you to know my answers to any new questions you may bring up. Anyone can pick apart an answer, yours have easily been picked apart by 3 others on this thread.

Rooster.
You asked me if there was anything you hadn't responded to.
I showed you some recent posts of mine that you didn't respond to.
Then you begin foaming at the mouth talking about OCD and homo erotica.
Why?
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I answer a question and you tell me its wrong. You answer my question and I tell you its wrong.

Here's the difference.
I answer all your questions or posts, and you choose to ignore my response. For example, I responded to your bullshit "tearing apart" of some of my sources, but you never responded to my reply. Meanwhile, if I reply to your responses, I will break down exactly how they are bullshit.

For example:
I asked you why you kept cracking jokes about Vincent LoScalzo and your reply was something along the lines of:
"Because you can't compare LoScalzo to the Todaros, it is apples and oranges."
You see how that doesn't answer my question at all? I will break down how that doesn't answer my question, and you'll ignore my response.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Im not foaming at the mouth about anything, you just cant see past what you see, get it? No, ofcourse you dont. You dont see logic. Reread what Nickle said when it comes to ideology and interepretation and logic you might learn something. We can keep this going for another month, youve been easy pickings since the jump as far as Im concerned.


"Easy pickings since the jump." Then why did you start senselessly rambling about OCD and homo erotica when I showed you some posts you never responded to?
I quote your posts, so this way I don't miss anything you've said and I respond to it all.
You intentionally and consistently avoid responding to posts I have made. You've been doing this throughout the entire thread. The reason I know you've been intentionally avoiding them, and not accidentally missing them, is because when you asked if there was anything you had missed, and I linked you stuff you had missed, you began with vicious and nonsensical name calling.

So Rooster - I don't expect you to answer this, since you seem to have a hard time responding to anything which challenges you. Why did you react the way you did when I linked you some posts you hadn't answered?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
And again, in my opinion, trying to compare Buffalo to Tampa and Scranton is ridiculous. Apples and oranges. That is my opinion and Ive given you the reasons why I believe this. Get it? No, ofcourse you dont.


ROOSTER. One of your reasons for Buffalo and Tampa being apples and oranges, was because "even if your (Nicky's) evidence is to be believed, Buffalo still lasted a lot longer than Tampa." This is not true. Which means that your "apples and oranges" argument is also not true. I told you this before, and you chose to ignore it, which has been your MO for this entire thread.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion. But your opinion is based on a proven falsehood, and I told you that.
Get it? No, of course you don't. You'll probably dodge this section of the post and resort to petty name-calling, calling me a homo or something.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Ive answered all your questions, you just adapt the same question so that maybe one of my new answers fits your narrative better. Get it? No, ofcourse you dont.

Then why didn't you say that from the get-go? Why didn't you say: "Nicky, that post is similar to one I already responded to awhile ago. My answer back then was this____"
Why did you, instead, start spasming about OCD and homo erotica like a homeless lunatic screaming insults and chucking bottles?
I'll give you two reasons why:
1. Because you know that statement isn't true. These are not just reworded questions. These are legitimate posts which question and 'tear apart' your argument, which you have categorically ignored for this entire thread.
2. Because instead of addressing a problem, you choose to ignore it or dodge it and just go back to the safety of personal insults and attacks.
Get it? No, of course you don't.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Almost as much of a lie as you being from the Balkans

Almost as much as a lie of you being from Buffalo.


Also, Rooster, notice how I was able to respond to everything in one post, complete with multiple quotes from multiple of your comments? You can do it too if you set your mind to it.
Posted By: Strax

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/18/18 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa


Also, Rooster, notice how I was able to respond to everything in one post, complete with multiple quotes from multiple of your comments? You can do it too if you set your mind to it.


Man you asking him impossible,it's too advanced for him. Why would you use edit when you can spam 5 posts in a row and bring this thread to 50 pages!
Posted By: BensonHURST

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/22/18 02:04 PM


http://aboutthemafia.com/tag/mafia-today

Rooster,

The 8th paragraph down starting with over the years.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/22/18 07:22 PM

Yes, seen that the other day. The Mafia and Mafia families have died a hundred deaths already, there is no Mafia we all know that.

I could care less about Nickys d***riding of law enforcement who publish what they want us to believe. Any one else can d***ride him too. He bases his logic on his version of logic, which fortunately Im not bound to. Nickle did a great job of explaining rationale and logic and how there is different types everyone follows, but Nicky didnt get that, it blew his mind and he didnt respond to it at all.

From Tampa but knows nothing about Tampa other than what hes read in articles and then wants to be a professor who exploits more of what he read about Buffalo, which happens to be inaccurate and contradictory in itself from Coppola to Gryta to Fino.

The concept of law enforcement lying or exaggerating in published articles is too advanced for him to understand and he believes everyone in law enforcement is of the upmost righteousness.

Then Straxx comes in with horrible grammatical English to try and ride his d*** and worry about how I post when hes contributed nothing to this thread other than the stalking of it.

And now Nicky will come in on a post and say " how can you possibly be believed if retired law agents said this and Coppola said this and Fino said this and nothing they said was inaccurate or contradictory its Gospel", and on and on and on.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/22/18 07:26 PM

Nicky just doesnt get it....hes a crusader whos two years late, too many articles linked, and has too much belief in whats been written. Some people just cant be shown an alternative because it is counterintuitive to their narrative. Some day when Nicky moves back to Tampa he will once again believe that Loscalzo is the boss there and him and Delia were spotted together boarding a plane to Scranton.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/22/18 10:16 PM

For newcomers to this thread:
I have consistently called out Rooster in this thread for ignoring many of my posts, posts that are too hard for him to answer or posts that poke many holes in his flimsy, uncorroborated fantasy that the Buffalo Mafia is still a viable criminal enterprise.
Rooster maintains that he's answered all my questions and hasn't ignored any of my posts. I don't really know how he thought he was going to fool anyone, since everyone can look back on this thread and point out many, many, many posts he has ignored.
But to prove him wrong, I posted some posts of mine that he chose not to address. These were very recent, only from a couple of pages prior. Rooster - instead of even attempting to answer the question - started typing furious posts, accusing me of having a fetish for homoerotica and a mental disorder.

In this recent post from him, he's seemed to have gotten over his mental breakdown and he is pretending like it never happened. I put in a final post calling him out on his bullshit, and he ghosted this thread for a few days. And no, it's not because he didn't have time to respond to this thread, or because something happened in his personal life. I know this because he continued ragging me on another thread, telling another poster to watch what they said in case I got angry.

So Rooster. Instead of hurling insults about how my "logic" - which is backed up by a shit-ton of evidence - is flawed, why don't you just address the posts I made awhile ago? Because I'm not going to address your rambling comments until you address mine. I've always quoted your posts and broken them down so I don't miss anything, but you never do the same because it's easier for you to ignore the posts that destroy your argument and hope you don't get called out on it.

Tell me more about LoScalzo and Delia. Because they seem to be the main point of all of your points. I asked you how you thought referencing LoScalzo and Delia would be helpful, and you replied with: "Because LoScalzo and Delia are apples and oranges compared to Buffalo, that's why" which doesn't make any sense whatsoever and doesn't go anywhere to answering the question. Like I said before, Rooster's so good at dodging questions that he should be a politician.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/23/18 01:21 PM

No insults. Ive explained myself time and time again and answered dozens of your questions. I clearly answered how Buffalo was different than Tampa and Scranton. Reread the thread, look at your own insults towards me and several others, understand how you try to undermine other peoples logic and then maybe youll come to terms with how lost you truly are. Until then, youre still nothing more than a crusader whos two years late, too reliant on articles, and too blinded to understand alternative theories and contradictory evidence. So again, you dont believe me and I dont believe you, people believe me and some people believe you. Agree to disagree? Ofcourse not, you still dont get it.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/24/18 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
No insults. Ive explained myself time and time again and answered dozens of your questions.

Dozens, sure. But nowhere near all of my questions

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

I clearly answered how Buffalo was different than Tampa and Scranton.

I asked why you kept cracking jokes about LoScalzo and Delia, without addressing any other points I might have made. That was my question. Sure, LoScalzo and Delia might be apples and oranges. But my question was what you hoped to gain by bringing up both of them?
Seriously?
This thread has had a lot of different discussions about Buffalo, but for seem reason you took every opportunity to resort to discussing the exact terminology of boss.
You kept cracking jokes about Delia, for example. But nothing I said about Delia is untrue. Delia was indicted in 06 and labelled as the boss of a family that had long been defunct. He was operating as an independent criminal and fraudster. Is any of that untrue?

My point by that was a boss retains the title of boss by default even if his family is, by all means, defunct. Am I wrong? Bear in mind that my saying this was in response to you, in this thread, bringing up a post of mine in ANOTHER thread which didn't even have anything to do with Buffalo. Am I wrong?
You tried to argue that a boss cannot be a boss if the family is defunct. I proved that wrong with the D'Elia example. Then you began with the "apples and oranges" argument. As if Tampa (and Buffalo) has different rules in that regard than every other family in the U.S. for some reason.

Now, remind me, what did any of this have to do with the Buffalo argument? Nothing. But for just about every response I made to you, your response was to bring up the D'Elia/LoScalzo thing to try and invalidate any single one of my arguments. No matter what the argument was, you'd bring up the (former) boss of Scranton and the (former) boss of Tampa. I could tell you I prefer BBQ sauce to tomato sauce and you'd make a joke about LoScalzo or D'Elia for some reason. That's the issue I've got. That's why I asked the question.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Reread the thread, look at your own insults towards me and several others, understand how you try to undermine other peoples logic and then maybe youll come to terms with how lost you truly are.

If you profess to have street sources, fine. If you are truly being told by dozens of beat cops that the family is active, then you have every right to believe the family is active. But I don't see how you expect anyone to believe you OVER the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, investigative journalists, etc.
Do you see what I'm saying?
And even worse is your inability to distinguish your posts between what is actually known per LE or feds, and what is uncorroborated street talk. You've misled many people on this forum, me included, with that sort of stuff. It's only until I actually cross-check and research that I'm able to call out the misinformation you've blatantly spread.
And even, even worse than that is you trying to call out "my articles" as you call them. First off, they're not "my articles" they're articles by journalists that have been backed up by feds, and more. And you rip apart LE, without realizing that law enforcement makes up the bulk of what everyone on this forum knows about the Mafia. The fact that people agree with your analysis of LE is even worse. Feel free to hate on law enforcement, but don't act like all they do is spill out lies. Without LE, our knowledge of the mob would be next to nill. Federal law enforcement has an impossibly better track record then you and other street talkers, and even most journalists. And you hold my "sources" - journalists, LE, etc. - to such a high standard that when a longtime investigative OC reporter like Lee Coppola called the Buffalo mob "penniless" in 1998, you somehow think that invalidates every single thing he's ever said about the Buffalo mob. Yet you don't hold yourself to such a high standard - you've made simple errors like that as well - and you don't hold people like Giacomo to such a high standard. Giacomo has been caught, and admitted to, lying on numerous occasions, with no explanation for himself.
And then, there's the issue that you yourself have admitted the bulk of your "intel" comes from beat cops. Yes, beat cops. Beat cops are law enforcement too, buddy. And are these beat cops as reliable as the feds, who have far high prosecution success rates than city and even state cops? No, and you've admitted a reason why. You have admitted that cops in Buffalo such as your sources, are incredibly corrupt, and some of your sources are actually related to these mob figures. Either these cops (that are related to mobsters) are lying to you, or these cops are willing to sell out their own family over a couple of drinks to a stranger. Can you explain that, Roost?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Until then, youre still nothing more than a crusader whos two years late,

So nobody after 2016 is allowed to discuss the Buffalo mob at all? Explain to me how that works. Was there a rule put in place where 2016 was the cut-off point for discussing the Buffalo mob that I'm not aware of?
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

too reliant on articles,

I'm too reliant on... evidence. Go figure.
And if people on this forum believe you, then they are too reliant on a complete lack of evidence. Go figure.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

and too blinded to understand alternative theories and contradictory evidence.

I understand the alternative theory that the FBI works alongside the Buffalo mob and is covering up their existence. But it's the most unlikely thing on this planet, akin to people that believe vaccines cause autism.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

So again, you dont believe me and I dont believe you, people believe me and some people believe you. Agree to disagree? Ofcourse not, you still dont get it.

Within one page you've gone to claiming I have a homo-erotic fetish and a mental disorder, to want to "agree to disagree." Did something happen in-between to change your mind? By the way, I like how you felt the need to add "no insult" at the start. If you really weren't insulting me, you wouldn't have had to add that at all.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/24/18 10:10 AM

Dozens is enough, you simply regurgitate the same questions in a slightly different format for every time I answer the original questions.

Already explained how Buffalo is different than Tampa and Scranton and the theory that the Mafia cant adapt and what once was the rule is no longer the rule (saying that a boss is as defunct as a family is including in title and that the title doesnt mean anything as is barely used anymore even when identifying Delia and Loscalzo) in 2018 by you can be picked apart easily.Yet another reason, in 2018 this is apple and oranges. Ive provided many others.

You keep putting words on this thread I didnt use, I never said dozens of beat cops give me my intel and using the word bulk insinuates they are primary. Your sources, although seemingly believable and holding titles of respectable members of their past and current field, again, as Ive said before have their own agendas, want to push their own theories, and contradict and exaggerate themselves many times in their articles. This includes the journalists and law enforcement/journalists

Coppola using the word "penniless" shows hes a provocateur not a writer. Its a ridiculous statement that he put out in a time when it wasnt true at all. It doesnt invalidate everything just shows how he operates. The family still had and was making a lot of money in 1998.

The alternative theory wasnt and is not that currently the FBI works with Buffalo for me, so no you dont understand.

You joined in 2017 and then started on this thread after crickets from you, just odd you become a hard driven expert. So, in my opinion your 2 years late and slow with initial posts on this forum.

Youre too reliant on what your told by who you think know everything about a Mafia family and believe that humans who have high titles dont or cant make mistakes, either on accident or purpose.

And yes I believe you have some weird fetish (maybe homo erotic) for this and/or me due to your insidious nature and inability to agree to disagree over a month ago now, even after you were happy with waiting on the Violi bust to play out at one point.

Side note- A while back when I said many people know the family to be operating and viable and many think the same. If you look at a lot of the "regular joe" forums like Topix and SpeakupWNY the consensus is split about 50/50 one way or the other. To me, that can show someone like you, beyond any claims Ive made the feel and understanding of this city and who these guys are and that they still have a hand in organizing local organized crime.




Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/25/18 08:05 AM

Rooster. When you respond to my posts, can you please use the "quote" button so you can break down everything I've said and I know exactly what you're responding to?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Dozens is enough, you simply regurgitate the same questions in a slightly different format for every time I answer the original questions.

If that was the case, you wouldn't have so much difficulty answering them.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Already explained how Buffalo is different than Tampa and Scranton and the theory that the Mafia cant adapt and what once was the rule is no longer the rule (saying that a boss is as defunct as a family is including in title and that the title doesnt mean anything as is barely used anymore even when identifying Delia and Loscalzo) in 2018 by you can be picked apart easily.Yet another reason, in 2018 this is apple and oranges. Ive provided many others.

ROOSTER. I understand the apples and oranges concept. For the 100th time.
My question was, and STILL IS, why do you continue to bring up LoScalzo and D'Elia even when we are on a completely different subject? That is my one question. Please, for the love of god, stop dodging it!

Also, what does it matter whether LoScalzo is the "boss" or the "former boss." Why did you bring it up in the first place? These are all things I fail to understand.

Here's what the LoScalzo argument in this thread has been:
We're arguing about Buffalo. You decide to bring up a comment from a whole other thread and say "By the way Nicky, how is LoScalzo the boss in 06 if you said the family was defunct by 07? What was he the boss of?"
Even though that comment had nothing to do with this thread, I answered it anyways. I explained that a person can hold the boss title in name alone - I gave William D'Elia as an example, and of clear proof that this is an accepted fact across the Mafia. Then you argued with me. You argued with something that is literally common knowledge. You argued that even though D'Elia was boss in name alone after his family was defunct, that simply wasn't the case with LoScalzo. I have no clue why you decided to argue this. You are from Buffalo. You have never claimed to have any knowledge about Tampa. Yet, for some reason, you decided to argue with me over something that has literally been proven right in another city, with another Mafia family.
Then, somewhere along the line, you got confused and decided to say "Well, the D'Elia thing isn't the case with Buffalo, it's apples and oranges."
First of all, the argument over whether LoScalzo should be called a "boss" or a "former boss" has nothing to do with Buffalo, yet you tried to make it so. Second of all, WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MATTER??? It's just terminology. It's not set in stone. Who cares if he is the "boss" of a defunct family or a "former boss" of a defunct family? The family is defunct. It doesn't fucking matter.

THAT is my question. I don't care whether LoScalzo or D'Elia are incomparable to Buffalo. That is an argument we can have later, since it isn't really relevant. My question is why, oh why, do you keep making wisecracks about LoScalzo and D'Elia in subjects and conversations that have nothing to do with him. I could say that I prefer red wine to white and you'd bring up D'Elia somehow. That's why I ask.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You keep putting words on this thread I didnt use, I never said dozens of beat cops give me my intel and using the word bulk insinuates they are primary.


Ah, here we go. I shouldn't even bother proving you wrong, since when you're proven wrong you have a tendency to ignore it entirely and pretend it never happened.
But here is you, in 2016, explaining where your "intel" comes from:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Most of my intel comes from cops and just being around different circles, bars, restuarants, etc. then determining what is probable on my own and understanding how and why the Mafia operates here in general and telling you all.

So yeah. Either you were lying in 2016, or you're lying now, or you just conveniently forgot who your sources are...
And the reason I say "dozens of beat cops" is because the amount of street talk on the Buffalo mob you provide is enormous. So either you've got dozens of cops that you know, or it's just a couple of guys that are, for some reason, the biggest OC experts in the Buffalo region and know more than the FBI, state cops, DAs, federal prosecutors, longtime OC investigative journalists, mob informers, and Ron Fino....
Stick to one story Rooster.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Your sources, although seemingly believable and holding titles of respectable members of their past and current field, again, as Ive said before have their own agendas, want to push their own theories, and contradict and exaggerate themselves many times in their articles. This includes the journalists and law enforcement/


Here's the difference between me and you, Roost. I can actually cite sources. I can actually cite references. I can actually link articles which explicitly describe the Buffalo mob's demise. Such articles offer statements from FBI, DAs, federal prosecutors, longtime investigative journalists, mob experts, Ron Fino, and more.

You, on the other hand, can't offer anything apart from uncorroborated and unverified statements about a family which police say have been defunct for the 15 years. The only people that back your story up are an exposed, proven, admitted liar named Giacomo Vacari, and another poster who seems to believe the family is in kahoots with the FBI and the FBI is protecting them in the unions. Nothing against you NickleCity, but Rooster said he doesn't agree with this analysis at all.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Coppola using the word "penniless" shows hes a provocateur not a writer. Its a ridiculous statement that he put out in a time when it wasnt true at all. It doesnt invalidate everything just shows how he operates. The family still had and was making a lot of money in 1998.

Not really though. The unions were gone, loansharking was drying up, illegal gambling was drying up. Etc. The article describes IN DETAIL how the Buffalo mob's rackets were falling apart.
So yes, comparatively, the Buffalo mob was penniless by 1998 when you compare it to what they were making just a decade prior. Such a huge dip in income is hard to describe.

And if Coppola is a "provoceateur not a writer," what does that make you considering you argued that the name "Todaro crime family" wasn't in use before 2017.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

The alternative theory wasnt and is not that currently the FBI works with Buffalo for me, so no you dont understand.

You joined in 2017 and then started on this thread after crickets from you, just odd you become a hard driven expert. So, in my opinion your 2 years late and slow with initial posts on this forum.


So, because I joined this forum in 2017, I'm somehow unqualified to know anything about the Buffalo mob? Why is it so odd that I'm a "hard-driven expert", as you put it?
And let's not forget the hypocrisy here. You joined the forum in 2016 and immediately jumped into the Buffalo thread. It was such a quick creation of an account that people were, fairly so, assuming you were an alias of Giacomo Vacari's. And somehow, because I joined the forum a year later, I'm not allowed to know anything about the mob?

And please, explain to me how the cut-off date for Buffalo mob discussions was 2016? Because I'm apparently "two years late," meaning nobody is allowed to discuss the Buffalo mob past 2016? Who made that rule? Why didn't I get the memo?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Youre too reliant on what your told by who you think know everything about a Mafia family and believe that humans who have high titles dont or cant make mistakes, either on accident or purpose.

Rooster. Who is more likely to make "mistakes, either on accident or purpose"?

Random internet posters with no validity or verification
OR
Federal authorities, who have among the highest convictions rates in the US and who get it right a solid 95% of the time.
District attorneys, whose job it is to make cases in and around Buffalo using evidence that is obtained through all different forms of police.
Federal prosecutors, who make cases at the federal level.
Longtime residents of Buffalo, who have been in and around the city for years.
Mob informants, who - despite not being involved in the life for many years - know the inner workings of the crime family and how it operates.
Longtime investigative organized crime journalists, whose job it is to report on organized crime in and around the Buffalo area.
Mob experts, with proven sources across the nation.

Riddle me this.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

And yes I believe you have some weird fetish (maybe homo erotic) for this and/or me

Notice how your little clique of Buffalo believers have all but abandoned this thread? It's probably because of retarded comments like that.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

due to your insidious nature

I'm insidious because I called you out on your bullshit?

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

and inability to agree to disagree over a month ago now, even after you were happy with waiting on the Violi bust to play out at one point.

If you ever wonder why I keep arguing, just look at the subtle jabs you've continued to make just as the argument is beginning to close. Like when Bensonhurst commented on another thread and you made a jab at me.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Side note- A while back when I said many people know the family to be operating and viable and many think the same. If you look at a lot of the "regular joe" forums like Topix and SpeakupWNY the consensus is split about 50/50 one way or the other. To me, that can show someone like you, beyond any claims Ive made the feel and understanding of this city and who these guys are and that they still have a hand in organizing local organized crime.

I guess you'll have to do a survey on the streets of Buffalo to find out that true answer.
And by the way, organized crime is almost definitely still active in the city of Buffalo, as well as every major city in the US. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't. But I don't think the Todaro crime family has any stake in the game.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/25/18 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Rooster. When you respond to my posts, can you please use the "quote" button so you can break down everything I've said and I know exactly what you're responding to?

No need, if you cant follow, thats on you. But Ill do you this favor once.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
Dozens is enough, you simply regurgitate the same questions in a slightly different format for every time I answer the original questions.

If that was the case, you wouldn't have so much difficulty answering them.

No, difficulty. Ive answered plenty as Ive said many, many times.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Already explained how Buffalo is different than Tampa and Scranton and the theory that the Mafia cant adapt and what once was the rule is no longer the rule (saying that a boss is as defunct as a family is including in title and that the title doesnt mean anything as is barely used anymore even when identifying Delia and Loscalzo) in 2018 by you can be picked apart easily.Yet another reason, in 2018 this is apple and oranges. Ive provided many others.

ROOSTER. I understand the apples and oranges concept. For the 100th time.
My question was, and STILL IS, why do you continue to bring up LoScalzo and D'Elia even when we are on a completely different subject? That is my one question. Please, for the love of god, stop dodging it!

Im not dodging anything. I bring it up because you think its relative to Buffalo when its not. Again, apples and oranges.

Also, what does it matter whether LoScalzo is the "boss" or the "former boss." Why did you bring it up in the first place? These are all things I fail to understand.

Because it shows your inability to understand 2018 even if I were to allow credence to your comparison with Buffalo

Here's what the LoScalzo argument in this thread has been:
We're arguing about Buffalo. You decide to bring up a comment from a whole other thread and say "By the way Nicky, how is LoScalzo the boss in 06 if you said the family was defunct by 07? What was he the boss of?"
Even though that comment had nothing to do with this thread, I answered it anyways. I explained that a person can hold the boss title in name alone - I gave William D'Elia as an example, and of clear proof that this is an accepted fact across the Mafia. Then you argued with me. You argued with something that is literally common knowledge. You argued that even though D'Elia was boss in name alone after his family was defunct, that simply wasn't the case with LoScalzo. I have no clue why you decided to argue this. You are from Buffalo. You have never claimed to have any knowledge about Tampa. Yet, for some reason, you decided to argue with me over something that has literally been proven right in another city, with another Mafia family.
Then, somewhere along the line, you got confused and decided to say "Well, the D'Elia thing isn't the case with Buffalo, it's apples and oranges."
First of all, the argument over whether LoScalzo should be called a "boss" or a "former boss" has nothing to do with Buffalo, yet you tried to make it so. Second of all, WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MATTER??? It's just terminology. It's not set in stone. Who cares if he is the "boss" of a defunct family or a "former boss" of a defunct family? The family is defunct. It doesn't fucking matter.

It matters because its irrelevant to Buffalo but youve tried to use it as evidence for Buffalo many, many times.

THAT is my question. I don't care whether LoScalzo or D'Elia are incomparable to Buffalo. That is an argument we can have later, since it isn't really relevant. My question is why, oh why, do you keep making wisecracks about LoScalzo and D'Elia in subjects and conversations that have nothing to do with him. I could say that I prefer red wine to white and you'd bring up D'Elia somehow. That's why I ask.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

You keep putting words on this thread I didnt use, I never said dozens of beat cops give me my intel and using the word bulk insinuates they are primary.


Ah, here we go. I shouldn't even bother proving you wrong, since when you're proven wrong you have a tendency to ignore it entirely and pretend it never happened.
But here is you, in 2016, explaining where your "intel" comes from:
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Most of my intel comes from cops and just being around different circles, bars, restuarants, etc. then determining what is probable on my own and understanding how and why the Mafia operates here in general and telling you all.

So yeah. Either you were lying in 2016, or you're lying now, or you just conveniently forgot who your sources are...
And the reason I say "dozens of beat cops" is because the amount of street talk on the Buffalo mob you provide is enormous. So either you've got dozens of cops that you know, or it's just a couple of guys that are, for some reason, the biggest OC experts in the Buffalo region and know more than the FBI, state cops, DAs, federal prosecutors, longtime OC investigative journalists, mob informers, and Ron Fino....
Stick to one story Rooster.

So now it must be dozens because you say so? Thats your theory? Means nothing, just exaggerating babble.

Ah, here we go nothing. You said dozens when I used the words many and used the word bulk when I used many. You are misleading people in hopes you can uncover subtle nonissues to try and discredit.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Your sources, although seemingly believable and holding titles of respectable members of their past and current field, again, as Ive said before have their own agendas, want to push their own theories, and contradict and exaggerate themselves many times in their articles. This includes the journalists and law enforcement/


Here's the difference between me and you, Roost. I can actually cite sources. I can actually cite references. I can actually link articles which explicitly describe the Buffalo mob's demise. Such articles offer statements from FBI, DAs, federal prosecutors, longtime investigative journalists, mob experts, Ron Fino, and more.

Ive cited your sources as exaggerating, contradictory, and misleading. So theres no difference other than the overall interpretation of the sources. Which everyones been over several times.

You, on the other hand, can't offer anything apart from uncorroborated and unverified statements about a family which police say have been defunct for the 15 years. The only people that back your story up are an exposed, proven, admitted liar named Giacomo Vacari, and another poster who seems to believe the family is in kahoots with the FBI and the FBI is protecting them in the unions. Nothing against you NickleCity, but Rooster said he doesn't agree with this analysis at all.

You can choose not to believe, thats fine. Weve been over this dozens of times. And when I use that word Im not lying.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Coppola using the word "penniless" shows hes a provocateur not a writer. Its a ridiculous statement that he put out in a time when it wasnt true at all. It doesnt invalidate everything just shows how he operates. The family still had and was making a lot of money in 1998.

Not really though. The unions were gone, loansharking was drying up, illegal gambling was drying up. Etc. The article describes IN DETAIL how the Buffalo mob's rackets were falling apart.
So yes, comparatively, the Buffalo mob was penniless by 1998 when you compare it to what they were making just a decade prior. Such a huge dip in income is hard to describe.

Just untrue and nothing YOU would know anyway. The unions werent gone, the casinos hadnt opened yet here and Nicoletti was still in control of all gambling, per your beloved law enforcement agencies.

And if Coppola is a "provoceateur not a writer," what does that make you considering you argued that the name "Todaro crime family" wasn't in use before 2017.

I definitely dont claim to be a journalist like he does so im not required to be held to an actually industry standard. He has a lot more responsibility than I do.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

The alternative theory wasnt and is not that currently the FBI works with Buffalo for me, so no you dont understand.

You joined in 2017 and then started on this thread after crickets from you, just odd you become a hard driven expert. So, in my opinion your 2 years late and slow with initial posts on this forum.


So, because I joined this forum in 2017, I'm somehow unqualified to know anything about the Buffalo mob? Why is it so odd that I'm a "hard-driven expert", as you put it?
And let's not forget the hypocrisy here. You joined the forum in 2016 and immediately jumped into the Buffalo thread. It was such a quick creation of an account that people were, fairly so, assuming you were an alias of Giacomo Vacari's. And somehow, because I joined the forum a year later, I'm not allowed to know anything about the mob?

Not unqualified, just tardy or invigorated because your narrative doesnt fit and it pissed you off enough one day to finally start writing.

And please, explain to me how the cut-off date for Buffalo mob discussions was 2016? Because I'm apparently "two years late," meaning nobody is allowed to discuss the Buffalo mob past 2016? Who made that rule? Why didn't I get the memo?

You couldnt even merge the thread to Buffalo thread, so yes, late and still not on the actual thread. But you got your way to stay on the Bufalino thread.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Youre too reliant on what your told by who you think know everything about a Mafia family and believe that humans who have high titles dont or cant make mistakes, either on accident or purpose.

Rooster. Who is more likely to make "mistakes, either on accident or purpose"?

Random internet posters with no validity or verification
OR
Federal authorities, who have among the highest convictions rates in the US and who get it right a solid 95% of the time.
District attorneys, whose job it is to make cases in and around Buffalo using evidence that is obtained through all different forms of police.
Federal prosecutors, who make cases at the federal level.
Longtime residents of Buffalo, who have been in and around the city for years.
Mob informants, who - despite not being involved in the life for many years - know the inner workings of the crime family and how it operates.
Longtime investigative organized crime journalists, whose job it is to report on organized crime in and around the Buffalo area.
Mob experts, with proven sources across the nation.

Riddle me this.

And thats your right to believe their theory over mine. As we said many, many times.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

And yes I believe you have some weird fetish (maybe homo erotic) for this and/or me

Notice how your little clique of Buffalo believers have all but abandoned this thread? It's probably because of retarded comments like that.
Originally Posted by The_Rooster


They just cant deal with bullies like I can.

due to your insidious nature

I'm insidious because I called you out on your bullshit?

No bullshit, youve achieved nothing.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

and inability to agree to disagree over a month ago now, even after you were happy with waiting on the Violi bust to play out at one point.

If you ever wonder why I keep arguing, just look at the subtle jabs you've continued to make just as the argument is beginning to close. Like when Bensonhurst commented on another thread and you made a jab at me.

Its relative, because people speculate on this forum all the time about status and members of Mafia and what they donor dont do. So its fitting that you police ever conversation and everything that is said about every family and every member to make sure you have hard evidence that proves everyone is " hobest" when they quote.

Originally Posted by The_Rooster

Side note- A while back when I said many people know the family to be operating and viable and many think the same. If you look at a lot of the "regular joe" forums like Topix and SpeakupWNY the consensus is split about 50/50 one way or the other. To me, that can show someone like you, beyond any claims Ive made the feel and understanding of this city and who these guys are and that they still have a hand in organizing local organized crime.

I guess you'll have to do a survey on the streets of Buffalo to find out that true answer.
And by the way, organized crime is almost definitely still active in the city of Buffalo, as well as every major city in the US. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't. But I don't think the Todaro crime family has any stake in the game.


Yea right on it. And again, your wrong, in my opinion. Get it? I didnt think so.
Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/25/18 10:27 AM

I didnt quote reply correctly but all your answers are there yet again
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/25/18 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by The_Rooster
I didnt quote reply correctly

No, you didn't. Because that would have meant you actually had to answer questions and respond to something worthwhile instead of cherrypicking phrases from posts I've made that seem easy.
Posted By: NickleCity

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/26/18 01:11 AM

Not about Buffalo Crime Family being active, but here is a little history on Joey Todaro III—Joseph “Big Joe” Todaro Jr’s son. It has long been said Joey Todaro III has never been involved in the rackets. However, there is evidence he was involved, at least as an associate, in the telemarketing schemes the mob ran in the city of during the ‘90’s. Here is a quote from a Buffalo News article from 1993:

Quote
Buffalo telemarketing companies also include sons and grandsons of mobsters and others known to associate with organized crime figures:

Joseph Todaro III, the son of the man the FBI identifies as Buffalo's mob boss, Joseph Todaro Jr., was a supervisor at Logik Enterprises, at 496 Elmwood Ave., until four months ago, when the FBI raided other companies.


Here is the whole article. It is very interesting with a lot of info:

Quote

RAIDS ON TELEMARKETING FIRMS FIND NUMEROUS TIES TO ORGANIZED CRIME

By MICHAEL BEEBE AND DAN HERBECK | Published June 27, 1993

When the FBI raided the offices of Very Impressive Products, a company affiliated with RFG Enterprises, they found evidence of what they had suspected in Buffalo's telemarketing industry -- ties to the Buffalo mob.

VIP's checking accounts were used for employee payrolls, as well as for paying the company president, Rocco F. Guadagna, and another man, Frank BiFulco, FBI agents were told.

Guadagna had been a bartender at Mulligans Cafe through the mid-1980s, living in a $41,000 two-family home in North Buffalo. Since starting his own telemarketing company in 1988, he now heads an $11 million-a-year business and lives in a $250,000 home in Clarence.

Although Guadagna never has been tied to organized crime, BiFulco is identified by the FBI as a longtime soldier in the Todaro crime family in Buffalo and one of the local mob's wealthiest members.

On a salary of about $60,000 a year as an administrator of Laborers Local 210 health and pension fund, "Butchie BiFocals," as he is known, drives a 1992 Mercedes Benz and a 1987 Jaguar, docks a cabin cruiser on the Niagara River and owns considerable real estate in Buffalo.

BiFulco, 48, has no public connection to the telemarketing business, but a number of checks made out to him from VIP, which are now in the FBI's possession, leaves investigators with the strongest link yet about the mob's involvement.

"Frank BiFulco is not an owner of the company," said Guadagna's attorney, Thomas C. D'Agostino. He refused to discuss why company checks would be made out to BiFulco, other than to say "there is absolutely nothing wrong." Yet sources said BiFulco is not the only member of organized crime in Buffalo involved in telemarketing.

Gaetano "Tommy Chooch" Miceli, 65, named by the FBI as a member of the local mob council as long ago as 1975, is associated with New Life Marketing at 1444 Hertel Ave., law enforcement sources said.

John Catanzaro, 50, is associated with the same company, these sources said. Catanzaro, a former steward for Laborers Local 210, also has been identified as a member of organized crime. He reached a plea agreement in 1989 and admitted he accepted money in a no-show scheme.

Buffalo telemarketing companies also include sons and grandsons of mobsters and others known to associate with organized crime figures:

Joseph Todaro III, the son of the man the FBI identifies as Buffalo's mob boss, Joseph Todaro Jr., was a supervisor at Logik Enterprises, at 496 Elmwood Ave., until four months ago, when the FBI raided other companies.

"He does not hold a position nor does he hold any ownership interest in Logik Enterprises," said Robert L. Boreanaz, Logik's attorney.

Frank Tripi, whose father was acquitted of murder and mob-related gambling charges, is listed in state records as Logik's president.

BiFulco's 15-year-old stepson, Carmen Gallo, a Lafayette High School student who was killed by drug dealers last month, was a salesman at Logik. After his killing, Logik employees flooded the East Side with their business cards and offers of a $20,000 reward in the slaying.

Samuel Amoia Jr., the grandson of former Buffalo mob boss Sam Pieri, is secretary-treasurer of LoMoia Enterprises at 1300 Hertel Ave. Amoia served a prison term for dealing cocaine in 1988. His brother Joseph faces cocaine charges in Las Vegas.

Michael A. Muscarella, the president of New Life Marketing, has been arrested for gambling. Muscarella is best known as the owner of the vehicle that police say was used as a getaway car in the 1978 shooting of mobster Billy Sciolino.

Joseph Mosey Jr., described by Buffalo police as an associate of organized crime figures, was one of the city's first telemarketers and was accused of defrauding customers in New York, California and Vermont through his Allied Publishers Services. Police say he has tutored many of Buffalo's younger telemarketers. Mosey formerly owned Bison Chrysler-Plymouth with Robert Sciolino, Billy Sciolino's brother.

Larry Panaro, vice president of North American Enterprises, at 3673 Delaware Ave., faces trial in Las Vegas on money laundering charges. His cousin, Victor, is serving a life sentence on drug and murder convictions. Las Vegas police said Larry Panaro boasted that he had family connections to the Buffalo mob.

Steve Sacco, a principal in Promotions Unlimited, is the son of former Buffalo police officer Richard Sacco and nephew of the late John Sacco, a mob associate who was briefly an FBI informant against the mob. Steve Sacco was arrested for burglary and drug possession in Las Vegas in 1989 while he was making more than $70,000 a year in telemarketing. He paid a $990 fine. Sacco's father, Richard, was dropped from the Police Department after the FBI recorded him telling his brother John the best ways to perform a contract killing.

Vincent Spano is the manager of North American Enterprises. Spano is a convicted gambler who has been linked to the mob by the FBI. The federal government seized the Washington Square restaurant, owned by Spano's father-in-law, because it was used for gambling.

Posted By: The_Rooster

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/26/18 12:20 PM

Awesome find Nickle....

@ Nicky, youre the cherrypicker. King of it actually. As you misinterpret and alter people words to continue to fit your narrative because you cant let go. Feel bad for you as Ive said many times. Many can mean 4, 5, 6....not dozens. So again' dont mislead people. If you really care youll read my answers and try to comprehend. But wait, you still dont get it. Over a month later.
Posted By: NickyfromTampa

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/27/18 07:07 AM

It's pretty obvious that this conversation will go nowhere. What makes this so painstakingly obvious is that when Rooster asked what posts of mine he hadn't responded to, and I provided posts from only a couple of pages back, he refused to acknowledge them and immediately began accusing me of homo erotic fetishes and mental disorders. If you accuse me of insulting Rooster, fine, but it's nothing compared to what Rooster has consistently dished out this entire thread. I hope nobody actually takes Rooster seriously after the shit that he's stooped to.

I said before that I wouldn't respond to anything unless Rooster answered the questions I posed. I actually said this more than once, but I found myself getting roped in by Rooster's stupid attacks and insults.
Posted By: SC

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 04/27/18 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
It's pretty obvious that this conversation will go nowhere.

I said before that I wouldn't respond to anything unless Rooster answered the questions I posed. I actually said this more than once, but I found myself getting roped in by Rooster's stupid attacks and insults.


What I find pretty obvious here is that too many of you are making this place look like a kindergarten class of misfit kids. Why can't you take the ego, childish at best, out of your messages. I understand that not everyone likes everyone else. That's human nature. But how we deal with that IS controllable and I'm asking all of you to be more adult when replying to another member. Stop this childish bullshit already. Nicky and others; I'm disappointed by this continuing behavior.
Posted By: cajunmafia

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 01/21/19 05:44 PM

So... is there another forum that actually discusses the family this forum was supposed to cover, the Bufalinos???
Posted By: Flushing

Re: Bufalino family remnants? - 01/21/19 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by cajunmafia
So... is there another forum that actually discusses the family this forum was supposed to cover, the Bufalinos???


Lol. That was the original intent.

It is funny how some posters interepet a family to be "rebuilding" when there is no news from them after multiple years. I dont believe that is the case with the buffalinos, but wiki has a few guys listed as active.
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