Consigliere position

Do you think the consigliere position has lost a lot of its value, especially in the last 30 years or so? It used to be the consigliere was the one who was supposed to advise the boss, solve inter-family disputes, etc. Supposedly the consigliere should look legit, be able to mix with the politicians, judges, etc.. but I can't think of any occasion of that happening in the last 30, 40 years or so. It seems the consigliere is just the "number 3 man" and nothing more.

-Carmine Sessa, deeply involved in the Colombo was, going out on hits and eventually turning informant.

-John Gotti about Joe N. Gallo. The consigliere is supposed to be chosen by the majority of the capos, but John said he could as well drop every capo and put his friends temporarily as capos just so he can remove Joe N. Gallo, and then put back the old capos. So it's just a technicality. I don't think that's even done anymore. In Philly or other cities I don't think the boss cares about this and he just appoints the underboss and consigliere however and whoever he pleases.

During Phil Testa's reign Nick Scarfo was put as consigliere which is ridiculous. Not fit at all for such a position, very hot-headed and not really the voice of reason in the Philly family. When he became boss, Nick did not even want a consigliere. After Frank Monte got killed, the place was vacant for a long while until he decided to put his cousin Piccolo, who was semi-retired, and it's doubtful Nick consulted with him even once during his reign.
Gaspipe Casso served as consigliere for a while, imagine that. So did Sammy Gravano, although I think he's a bit more fit for that role, compared to Gas. During Vic & Gas's reign I'm not sure the Luccheses even had an official consigliere after Christie Tic went away.

Is the consigliere's role basically lost nowadays? Is he nothing more than just the "number 3 man"?

I think that today even in the big families the position of consigliere is give to a powerful but very old capo like venero mangano for example.
For the scarfo case he made his nephew as underboss and one of his uncles as consigliere.

Yeah I think there's evidence that this position is ceremonial and a way to reward long standing capos for their service and loyalty.

Since the Don is king, he can appoint whomever he wants as consigliere, and listen to whomever he wants, whether or not the guy is the consigliere. One of the tapes released during Gotti's last trial has him saying to Gravano, "You can be consigliere or underboss, whatever makes you feel better." Some say that Hugh (Apples) McIntosh, Persico's bodyguard, was more like his consigliere.

Agree. Consig is probably largely ceremonial. How many current bosses you think actually take counsel anyway? I'm sure where it's used is more about an extra layer of insulation more than anything.

A lot of bosses consults elder statesman of the family,either retired or semi retired,in some families if a boss is retired in good standing their more often play the consig role unofficially

A smart boss goal is to retire or semi retire and give the day to day duties to the future boss while their still around to guide them... Ala the Chicago guy's,Carlos gambino, Dom from the Bambino's etc.

Post borgesi, Philly has done a good job of restoring the traditional role of a consig

Chickie Chang I hope u mean??

It's a big babysitting job from what I understand, non stop sit downs and drama from grown men that all want the cash or respect or other .

Must be a beast to be one of a big family like the Gambinos !

Lucibello, staino, and johnny Chang previously filled the role of consig

All smart men

I think it morphed into more of a political position to satisfy factions in the family and/or add another level of insulation in relaying orders.

For example, didn't Angelo Bruno make Joe Rugnetta consigliere just to satisfy that faction of the Philly mob? And then pretty much do the same with Tony Bananas?

Boston people was mark rosetti really acting consig for the family 2009 or so before he was busted for dope and the fbi put him out there? Like furios chart says he had atleast a few bodies. I think i read it when the strip club busts came down cause that providence guy said anthony dinunzio gave mark a cutt of there shakedown.

Theres so many older guys jn that family around 2009 he couldnt be the acting consig. Or maybe non of the old guys wanted the meesly 1000 a month to only be busted down the road for extortion. Rosetti shut the fucked up cause he could have put alot of boston away they must have paid him off or gave his family passes in the street.

Good thread. I have wondered the same thing especially about Little Nicky. It seems like a political position to me. I feel the same way about underboss. Maybe you should pose the same question about the underboss title.

A lot of answers being it is a ceremony position, but if you look into the Bonanno, Genovese, Lucchese, Elizabeth, and Philadelphia families in recent years, you can tell it is not a ceremony position.

It varies from boss to boss and family to family. Sometime the underboss and consigliere are the #2 and #3 most powerful family members, sometimes they are just auxilary positions for the boss.

I don't think it's ceremonial, it's political, and an indication of power in the family...

Like take Scarfo right? He was consigliere, but HE expected Testa to make him underboss. Like he was very miffed by this. So you gotta ask the question, why did Testa make Casella underboss? There had to have been some politics there.

What I suspect is even though he was close to Scarfo, Scarfos crew made the boss nervous. He was a little TOO autonomous, his crew was TOO loyal to HIM specifically. So I suspect Testa used the position in administration to kind of weaken Scarfos power in the family a little bit.

He was TOO powerful NOT to be in the administration. But I don't think Testa wanted him as number two, probably was grooming Salvie for it...
Same deal with Scarfo and Harry. Harry's crew made Scarfo nervous about his own security, as these guys ONLY took their orders from Harry. Funny, I always thought Harry could have, or should have been made consigliere under Scarfo.

I think it's a function of mob politics. Has it ever struck any of you guys funny that Joe Adonis NEVER got an administration position? Like fuck that Pandolfo shit, WHO THE FUCK WAS COSTELLOS CONSIGLIERE? Was it Mike Miranda? Just this alone, I've always suspected Costello and Adonis didn't get along, that Lucky was the thing they had in common.

@ Ted

Spot On there......

Sal Vitale was underboss in name only.
Gotti was an ACTING CAPO, technically, yet he was the natural successor to Dellacroces power, which was good for an administration position, plus he had his own crew to back it up.


The Bonnano old timers made a stink of Bill getting the consigliere spot, I think it definitely carried weight.

Vic Colletti of the Genovese had enough clout to win a sit down with Massino, and he TURNED DOWN a consigliere spot. So I think it STILL carries weight.

Bobby Manna, low key was almost as powerful as Chin it seemed. Same with Tino Fiamara, I think he was consigliere, but was a front runner for boss.

I agree with Ted I think it varies from family to family, and even from administration to administration....



Edit: I know it's just a TV show, but you guys remember the exchange between Tony and Johnny Sack right before the Feds hit?

Tony; " So meet his price, and be done with it....." Johnny; " I don't like it, he gonna want consigliere or who knows what...." Like he didn't want Phil TOO POWERFUL, too legitimate, even though this was his most trusted capo. He needed to be able to CONTROL the guy. He was perfectly willing to give him MONEY, or a piece of another racket, but MORE POWER? This made him a little nervous, just a visual example of the politics in play....

Very interesting thread.... Any more thoughts fellas??

What about John Torrio being the Genovese Consigliere during Frank Costello reign?

it came out in the luchese indictment napoli was there consig and that must have happend in the last few yrs cause when he was indicted with scarfo jr and the nj crew around 2007 he was a capo. say to say barney being chins protege has one and the gambinos must have had to replace that guy bobby glasses who died a few back.