" Rats "

In this day and age we still have rats crushing high level guys in the families.

I don't get why someone in the administration does not have some type of electronics that can pick up bugs.

The other thing is I am sure some meetings are in there Jox shorts only . Why not go the extra mile when it comes to meeting.

Why is it not handled like everyone is wearing a wire , if the Feds need recordings to convict why are these guys not doing security and all meetings.

Just ridiculous to me why sit in a jail for 30 years because of these rats sniff them out and take care of what you got to take care of .

Not just that it would make guys think more then twice if they walk in to a meeting and they are stripped and gone over electronically .

The Feds have rats in every family now !!!

Because Casso is in jail!

Seriously though, the power has shifted because of technology. They probably have ME on 10 cameras a day just driving to work. These guys are ALWAYS watched.

The recording devices and cameras are so damn small now.

They can put bugs in watches, buttons and hats. There is no way these guys can detect wires with any certainty in this day and age.


That sounds like a good idea on the surface, but there is no way any criminal would be ok with being constantly checked for wires by their peers. You'd basically be showing disrespect every time you do it. Remember, criminal organizations are run as a brotherhood. You undermine that cohesion/unity when you are constantly checking each other for wires.

You can trust nobody in the underworld. The bad guys here use all that spy stuff LE uses against eachother. Wires, cameras, gps trackers, pgp phones etc..

"Disrespect"....If that's the main reason they don't check for bugs and wires, then the Mafia has really become like Bloods and Crips etc by mentality (apart from the violence / "easy trigger" aspect). In that documentary series called Gangland, during interviews and interrogations, the word "disrespect" seemed to be in the center of their whole universe, I have lost count of times when their actions were motivated by "disrespect", not even power or money....

-Why did you kill him?

-He disrespected me!

And everything can be included in the concept of "disrespect", ranging from a "wrong glance" towards a member of another gang when you are crossing the "wrong" street, to serious things, like being cheated on millions of drug money.

If the mafiosi are more obsessed with being disrespected than staying free, I don't even know what to say then....

But if I was one of them, I would have learned Italian, including local dialects from the provinces of Italy their ancestors came from. Seriously, if they didn't stop learning their original languages, instead of sticking to English only, they would be much harder to convict imo. If they talked in some semi-unknown dialect used maybe only in 1 part of some Sicilian province (the Sicilian isn't the same on the whole territory, there are variations of it, same goes for other regional dialects), then spoke it quickly, with a low voice and using coded language, with some allegories and comparisons and allusions that only their community knows, the FBI would spend all their resources on translators without having success nevertheless imo The fact they haven't gotten anything Italian in them anymore apart from last names, is a big mistake that guarantees weaknesses in the organization. If they don't allow non-Italians to be made, then they should have at least exploited the Italian aspect to the fullest. Really, the dialects (in the southern regions especially) are so different from official Italian (and between themselves too) that stopping to transmit them through generations, made things much easier for law enforcement. I speak Italian, but when I listened to John Stanfa talking on those tapes in a documentary, I understood less than I do if I hear speaking Spanish for example. So if they tried to complicate it on purpose and spoke dialects, partially in code and partially with signs (like when they pointed at the chin when referring to Gigante), it would me much harder to make the charges stick.

You got a point with the whole disrespect angle. This whole luchese indictment is cause of it. Madonna thought meldish wasnt respectful they whacked him a few guys didnt show crea sr anuff they were almost killed other then that its a bullshit indictment with the regular mob shit gambling extortion. Gotta stop being so insecure like the profet kanye once said.

I understand the bugs are small and the Feds have great technology" but this undermines everything!

If guys can not last five years without a rat in the family then they have to invest in some type of security .

Even if they practice some type of deterrent you would not have associates locking up bosses!

They can put a bug under the floor from a basement. They can hear everything you say. They could do that 40 yrs ago. Imagine what they have now. Best way not to get caught is to have guys who hate cops more then they fear going to jail. Plus if they are a life long friends from child hood just like a brother they just won't rat.

Any one else is a loose end. Lose a loose end buy another they work cheap and can be replaced easy.

Foot : So true but they have not been getting them with that type of technology.

The mob has made some adjustments obviously to combat this.

The ones that are getting them are there " own " and it's been easy for them to get made guys to run there mouth , not so much past crimes but of current rackets.

Still think if they would do some surprise searches they will start getting rats because there appears to be many.

The last two big cases the guys were recording for years ! and they were associates and made guys.

I think if the focus went back to the old school mentality of assuming there was always a bug or tap,these guys would not be getting recorded.

In cases like Gotti,Castellano,Ruggerio,Avellino,etc,the reason the bugs were successful was not because the wiseguys didn't have the technology to detect them. The reason was that these guys never bothered to check because they assumed that the bugged locations were safe and beyond the reach of the FBI techies.

Therefore they talked freely. The bottom line has always been,assume that whatever you say is being recorded somehow,by somebody.

Take a guy like Carlo Gambino. He ran the most powerful Mafia Family in the country for many years, somehow managing to pass down orders,give and get information,and stay on top of thousands of little details. Yet, if you managed to plant a bug under his skin, you still wouldn't get enough to charge,or even indict him.

My boy said like the prophet Kanye once said ! Bruh that literally had me laughing out loud!

Detroit mafia boss used to talk of bussiness in a cold room so any wire can't record due the cold.
In the 5 families book is write that Massino used device for find wires and closed the social clubs,ordered to dont use his name ecc but at last he was the first to flip.

They could also do like that boss from Pittsburgh, Michael James Genovese: simply avoid talking business inside any building, but only while taking a walk outside. At least, this strategy worked, he never went to jail (for serious crimes and long time at least).

Are you saying the Mafia hasn't murdered people over signs of disrespect?

They did, I understand that, it's just that after watching all those episodes from the "Gangland" series, and hearing those street thugs (Bloods, Crips, Nortenos, Latin Kings, skinheads etc) using the word "disrespect" more than any other word (and in most cases really out of place), so when I hear criminals (even serious and big-time ones) talking about disrespect as motive for their actions, I always have an impulse to start laughing.... I know the mafia isn't funny, but from a certain point I can't help but associate the word "disrespect" with those low-level thugs from street gangs who jump in front of the cameras with faces covered by colored handkerchiefs, holding rolls of cash and shouting "Yeah, big money, man! No sh@t, don't f@ck with us! BOOM BOOM BOOM! "Sex, money, murder" forever!" and similar things After hearing the word "disrespect" being used so many countless times in similar occasions, I can't take the word seriously any more, at least not in a criminal context, although I realize it wouldn't be funny at all, to meet one of those guys in real life...

Feds can maipulate frequency so bugs dont get detected.

I think the least guys can do while meeting to talk is to collect all cell phones and watches and put them in a bag or something and put it away from where everyone is talking.. . It's a fact the last few rats had devices in their phones or watches... so not speaking while phones or watches are present I feel like is a pretty easy thing to do and can bring the risk of being recorded down significantly....

If I felt I ever had to discuss something that could give me 10 plus yeArs, I'd talk with 1 of 2 people that I've known for 40 years...and i would have this conversation in a sauna or steamroom that I had never been in in my life

I get it " but if I am a skipper or a boss my guys are talking in a bath towel and random lie detector tests are fucking being done no questions asked !!!

Rooftops and movie theaters are the best places to talk business. Or they can all just learn sign language.

Why dont they just write stuff on a whiteboard to each other, then erase it? Like write, "Go clip Vinny the Wop", then erase that shit. I mean, they can't all be illiterate right? Bugs can't pick up if you write something temporarily and dont say it out loud.

Or, just pass notes to each other: "Do you want your button? Check one: Yes [ ], No [ ], Maybe [ ]." Then burn it afterwords so there's no papertail

Anything would help , Lie detectors are pretty accurate and not that expensive if it was given every few months it would make guys think that they would never get away with getting all that evidence .

They may be able to get something quick but nothing like what's been going on ,if you are to sit in the joint till you die I rather take a little time and spend a small amount of cash to combat this freewheeling of recording for years and putting ten or more guys away .

In Chin's daughter's book, she says she used to see her father write notes for his guys and then burn them.

Reminds me of high school.

Hi Bobby. Baldy Dom thinks ur ttly cute. PS burn this note. LOL.

Chin xxxxx

(Meldish murder) Here we go these rats are so low they are ratting out there own father it’s a Gangland article and he is not just putting his pop away he is putting away everyone he came in contact with .

The father and son and a grandfather and an uncle were all made the uncle flipped years back .

Yeah i don't know how somebody snitches on their own father

These dirtbags will rat out anybody. I even know of a few guys who made up s**t about people they barely knew and swore to conversations that never took place. The worst part of it is, this sort of behavior is encouraged by many at all levels of law enforcement.

No doubt,and they are more then encouraged if they are believable and they can match any circumstance around the lie .

This is tongue in cheek but even if you met butt naked for a meeting, these rats would stick an audio device up their ass. These guys are absolutely desperate to stay out of prison at all cost. Which makes you wonder why be a gangster in the first place?

If I am a Boss or skipper you are getting a lie detector test randomly by two different contractors and if you fail or pass you don’t get told ever and if you fail I would have 24 hr Surveillance on you if not clipped !

No way am I and others in the same game and when you feel like ratting you give me up no way !

I would be using everything I could including strip searching and scanning for bugs regardless they have to know you are trying because as it stands these guys are getting away playing both sides and doing what they want for years .

Pretty much we see the outside of the whole scenario. We hear on the news that a guy from a organized crime group testifies against other members there. In reality these guys double cross each other in any way they can. And there's a load of examples. No-one wants to sit in prison covering up people who didn't pay you your cut from the deal or fucked your wife behind your back. And the reason is you cannot trust any of them. Simple as that. That's why they snitch each other out as no-one of them is worth wasting your life in prison.

What bothers me the most is the fact they are still recruiting, proposing and making guys. The ranks are all the same etc . If they restructured it would help alot

These "friends" will shoot you in the head .What makes anyone think they can trust anything they say or do?

Same thing I thought. If Feds develop in their ways to bring down organized crime, then the mafia doesn't really.

How would "restructuring" - as you put it - help in a significant way?

No doubt you are dealing with that type of personality it’s part of the game but do you want to die in jail because of a snitch that’s the question .

Now if a guy knows from day one or if it’s a surprise to have two qualified lie detector administrators on the payroll to ask questions that will not get you twisted up in a case if they get flipped is easy.

Now if I am a street guy I am robbing the family it’s just the way it is ,nobody kicks 100% so you have to steer your questions so you don’t get a fail because of a few dollars . But I totally see using it as a very good deterrent .

There must been over half of all rats that if they knew they had a chance of getting tested or wear a wire the guy is not going to wear a wire infact I would think it wound stop 80 or more % .


This may possibly being used already because if it’s me I am doing it from day one . And a week or a hour in the joint is not worth 500$ for that test administrator for the day .

Compare what law enforcement already know to what they won't know. If they reshuffled the administration and captains, territory, ranks and of course the rules then it would help. Keep in the mind the idea of a "secret society" which is the basis of reconstructing

Vinny Gorgeous when he was acting Boss was supposedly strip searching everyone for meetings, high ranking capos included which supposedly made them all angry at Basciano. Even though what he did was totally genius and the right thing to do. So many rats now a days that the Bonanno big wigs should have welcomed Vinny Gorgeous going the extra mile to try and avoid rats and wires.

As for the Carlo Gambino never was caught on tape etc etc if RICO had been used prior to Funzi Tieri while Don Carlo was still alive trust me he would have died in a cell. Hell, Antonio Corallo was nicknamed Tony Ducks because he was always ducking indictments and prison time and even he died in prison.

In order for Cosa Nostra to survive they are going to have to adapt...maybe like adopting some of the practices of the Chicago outfit and give people positions based on merit and not just last name.

As mentioned before, they are a criminal organization with old traditions. This is same as the Catholic Church being against using condoms, not overthinking that there are STD's. If they want to survive they have to adapt and change their ways of operation.

True and horrible to say they may have to stoop to the Mexicans and go after family or get much more creative or both .

I don't really get what you mean. Reshuffle the administration in capos as in bump down, for example, Barney Bellomo and put in someone else? And bump down captains and replace them with someone else from their crew? I don't know what that would achieve? Wherever the feds are getting their intel from (paid informers, wiretaps, etc.) they'd soon catch up and the mob would be right back to where they started, except now they would have a bunch of former admin members and capos that are pissed because they were bumped down for absolutely no reason.

And what do you mean by reshuffle the rules? It just seems you're being very vague offering all these tips and tricks to an organization that has dominated the New York Metro and elsewhere for 100 years. And how would even go about reshuffling 'territory,' as you put it? Relocate all the Queens guys to Jersey?

Serp ..at first I thought the lie detector test idea was stupid candidly. But on reflection, you are right. If I was an active guy, every few months I would make the guys around me get tested. I mean you can't ask your skipper but it helps limit your exposure. The problem is that only solves something dry snitching or being an FBI informant. It doesn't stop a guy from flipping after catching a pinch. However, it still would be a worthwhile $500 as you said.

I heard somewhere that lie detector tests are inadmissible in many cases as evidence due to their low success rate. It measures fear and nervousness, not lying.

Yeah it can not be a end all murder thing ! But a guy fails now you never revel the tests EVER and if a guy fails you spend the money on a good Private detective to get the right info and of course this private detective (that they have use many times over the years for half light stuff) has to be close to the family like there Lawyers that do borderline work .

Not saying that it will stop all ! But if you know you are getting a test no way are you wearing a wire or taking a chance .....it will stop 90% of the beginning of snitches !!!

If I am a skipper or a boss that money is the most well invested money ever !

You guys ever been locked up .... it sucks !

Agreed. And if they fail pretend they pass but don’t say a word to them incriminating

Those gangland shows are super sensationlist. And there’s probably some selection bias in the supposed gang members they happen to interview. They always irritated me.

I always thought they were producers of the show or actors masquerading as gang members. It always seems to be the same guy. He has a bandanna covering his face, voice disguised with audio, "We'll kill anybody fool! We don't care! Come through our hood, we'll kill you!!".

The Norteno one was a joke. I really doubt that white guy from San Jose was going to places like Sacramento and collecting taxes. Maybe from people who didn't know any better. But I can't see anyone hard core answering to this guy.

Whoever said Carlo Gambino was never caught on tape is misinformed. He may not have ever been caught saying anything incriminating but he has been caught on tape before.

He was caught on tape in a hotel threatening to beat his wife if she didn’t shut up and more arguments with her

That is exactly what I was referring to. He said he would cut her tounge out.

That’s heavy for an argument with the mrs haha. I would like to hear that

These guys don't even need to be wired anymore...They just waltz in to court, give a story and the jury sentences people to 25-life based pretty much, solely on the word of a career criminal who lies every day of his life...

Just finished reading D'arco's book...Its disgusting that a prosecutor asks him if he recognize these numbers and when he didn't they had a little huddle and he comes back on the stand and says it was the number for a guy's shylocking book that they took over...Then James Larossa proved with rent receipts that it was the defendants rent, down to the penny...

The government should be above trying to frame people like this !!

Here's the link where it came from http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/frie...-files-boss-of-bosses-carlo-gambino.html with the quotes below.

The FBI planted a bug in the long-married couple's hotel room during their March 1962 vacation to Miami, FL where they stayed at the Golden Gate, and Carlo gloated about his days at the track and Catherine complained about the Jews. Apparently Mrs. Gambino had an anti-Semitic streak: "She also stated that there were too many Jews there and she says she feels these Jews drink too much. She stated that she feels she is better than they are." As the wife of a bootlegger Mrs. Gambino apparently missed the irony in complaining about "these Jews" who "drink too much" but, of course, self-delusion is the first refuge of a mob wife.

The marriage sounded thoroughly loveless with endless bickering based on the FBI eavesdropping of the Gambino hotel room. Carlo on one occasion called Catherine a "shrew" with "a sharp tongue," and on another occasion cursed at her and "then told his wife that she talked too much and if she did not shut up, he would cut her tongue off."

That’s right it’s never fair they stack the deck before it’s delt .

It’s just not possible Feds do what gangsters do and will push and push for favors or leniency ect. now don’t crush me I know the guys they are putting away are committing crimes but it’s the same.

They locked up every little numbers all the up to the biggest to do what ? Fucken took it for the state then when you win you pay taxes right back to the state that sure sounds like a crime .

I don't mean to get graphic here , but is it even possible to effectively utilize an audio device in the manner you've described ? I mean I'd wager that it would be extremely uncomfortable ( to say the least ) to walk around with a audio device concealed in the manner you've described , not to even mention it's effectiveness at recording anything of worthwhile quality .


This is probably gonna come off silly , but ( to add to the hypothetical ideas proposed above ) I'd definitely make sure that every member of my organization would have sex on a regular basis with trusted female associates ( in all likelihood prostitutes ) if I happened to be a mob boss . In fact I'd even require said female associates to give massages of the area you've described above , during said sessions to eliminate the possibility of concealing audio devices in the manner described above .

Of course law enforcement could and would try to flip said female associates , but that's my out of the box contribution to the realm of this hypothetical scenario .

Dead serious if a guy is ratting and his skipper is giving lie detector tests no fucken way he is coming in !

And if he does and fails he is tracked 24/7 and will slip up..... there are many ways once you have a idea that he is ratting.

The tests are getting better and better and the electronic’s more sophisticated and much easier to catch a guy .

Like I said if I had a crew I would and I would tell them up front so you can catch shit early so ten guys don’t end up on a bug and the whole crew goes down but the rat !

I would not doubt that many are using it already they really can not have a private eye on every guy ...but the guy that fails you can and he is easy to set up once he is playing both sides using fake agents whatever it takes ..... and trust me if a rat thinks he is talking to real agent he will say something fast so the boss will not have to wait long . But he will have to spend a little money on family private eyes and many families have them already doing stuff.

Good possibility I am ten years behind and they been doing it who knows !

In my opinion what need the american mafia is that as used in the sicilian mafia every rats will be killed in a man ner or in another.
Leonardo Vitale aka the first mafia pentito was send to a mental asylum for 10 years once out was killed;lea garofano that testified against his husband was killed by him.
In american mafia Sammy "the king of rats" Gravano is still alive while in italy would be whacked after went out or first,vinny Palermo work in Texas and tony d'amico went back to NY but was only beaten.