This stuff is not a movie/video game

Rarely do I post. That being said I am a long time member/lurker. I also go way back to forums like the heyday of americanmafia etc. It has been completely frustrating to watch posts going on where people (who claim they know stuff) try and compare power in terms of street level gang members going against LCN. Modern day American LCN exists in a COMPLETELY different sphere than street gangs such as the Bloods (UBN or West Coast), GDs etc. To compare American LCN to ANY other STREET criminal entity is to compare Burger King to a fine French restaurant. Yes one will have more customers and employees over a fractured group of franchises but the other will have long term customers and long term employees making money over generations and In a cleaner and more refined way. This is not a video game or a bad movie where a gang takes on the mob for control of the city. It won't happen. Street gangs could care less about mafia gambling operations or union racketeering and LCN could care less about a street corner in the ghetto pumping out crack or heroin. For example there will never be a "war" between the Bloods and the Gambinos over ANYTHING. The amount of gang members in a given city where LCN has presence has a minuscule to absolutely zero impact on any LCN activities in that given area. There is no overlap in terms of rackets or even aspects of the drug trade. In isolated instances there is an overlap where mutual associates (in terms of street gangs and LCN) rub shoulders. This is isolated and not a fact of the life. There are even instances where relatives of made or connected guys become street gang members however these are so rare they don't even factor in. Made guys rarely, if ever, care about street gang politics and street gangs have absolutely zero clue about anything going on LCN racket-wise. This may be different in Canada and other areas as I don't claim to be an expert about those areas. Power in modern day American LCN doesn't come from the amount of soldiers or members (as it would pertain to street gang versus street gang) nor the amount of guns etc. Power in modern day LCN comes from brains, connections in various industries and trades, political connections (more within businesses and amongst families than amongst actual politicians). In the American LCN, one 70 year old man has more earning power than entire neighborhoods of pistol packing gang member driven rackets. So for those guys on these forums who insist on these "GD vs Mafia What ifs".... It's simply not true.

PS: this even extends to the cartels etc.... American LCN really does occupy its own unique niche. There is rarely an overlap.

PPS: it is an indisputable fact that the Mafia families in the Northeast are the pre eminent and most dominant LCN groups in the USA. This is not up for debate.

I agree with you.
I come from a world of California street gangs and in recent years became increasingly interested in all things to do with LCN especially because The Sopranos is my favorite show of all time.
I think there's similarities in these two worlds but that's it.
Comparisons are apples and oranges to put in mildly.

I can't speak about street gangs in the northeast but I know many gangs have tried to model themselves after LA gangs, bloods and crips etc.

IMO gangs in LA traditionally has been a blood sport of rival tribes.
Gangs fight each other just to fight each other.
Gang members will literally sit around talking with one another and keeping score of how many enemies they picked off vs the nearby rivals.
I always would hear about how gangs are fighting for drug turf and stuff but that's overblown. There's truth to it but the vast majority of the violence is for no reason at all other than to prove which gang is the hardest and most dangerous.
There's been a shift in recent decades of street gangs organizing better to make money, but it still isn't the same as LCN which is in a totally different realm.
When people talk about power these groups hold vs the other, in makes no sense.
Street gangs have no real reason to fear LCN and LCN has no reason to fear street gangs. It's a different world.

There aren't many, because it is two different worlds, but if you look at the few examples of interaction between the LCN and gangs in the US over the past 15 years, it's pretty much always been for mutual profit. They typically don't cross paths and, when the do, they don't butt heads.

I agree with SoCalGangs but people also have to realize that they been interacting ( Outfit & Stones in the 70s, NYC families & UBN/LKN, etc) and overlap in certain areas. Don't just bash street gangs to some lower scale when it's a variety of scope amongst themselves. Money talks at the end of the day and that shows when mobsters work with bangers. Enough said, there's no "levels" just networks.

Yeah if anything a street gang would love to network with the mob if they could. It only makes sense, why not make more profit.
As far as bashing street gangs vs the mob, I don't really look at either being morally superior anyway. It's just different mentalities, goals and cultures.

It is all one.

I mostly agree with you, couple things though;



Your Burger King analogy, lol. You shoulda said the neighborhood burger joint or the bodega restaurant, Burger King is like a Fortune 500 right? That's like saying it's better to have the BEST steakhouse in midtown as opposed to, like McDonalds, lol, it's not.


On the Gd thing, the kid asked if the BDs were stronger than the outfit;
I mentioned the GDs from the NINTIES, cause it was the most " mafia-ish" gang, this is outta the police's mouth not mine. And the one that came the closest to resembling a mafia style crime syndicate, again I made allusions to, fuck what was it 21st century vote? I drew parrelles to the old outfit tactics of having crews influencing voters, THATS how I actually think that thing woulda eventually turned out, with Hoover giving orders from prison like, tell the neighborhoods to vote for so and so, the Feds couldn't have that.

Now, and Ivey can attest to this, I actually argue all the time that counting the made members is not exactly a good way to gage the strenght of the organization, you gotta look at the actual rackets and operations involved, I think we agree here. I mentioned the Feds estimate of their membership back then, like 30000, ( and again, like Black Fam stated those numbers are probably inflated, buuuuuuut, it came from the FEDS RIGHT?, lol) that's literally enough guys to put a crew on every Outfit guy 24 hours a day, but of course it would never happen.

I don't know, like THAT thread irritated you like that? Why? I mean I read about every thing from Mafia, ( and I don't mean JUST NY, I read about ALL of it)
To cartels, (and I don't mean JUST the Mexicans, lol, you know there was a Kaszakhstani CAVIAR cartel, shit was like 8000 a kilo) Like your reaction to the thread says more to me than anything. I've seen the dumbest threads imaginable and they don't make me feel anything ( examples; Most handsome mobster, biggest house, Lincoln or Cadillacs, any thread about this Alite dude, lol)


I don't know, anyway like I said I think anyone who actually pays attention to this stuff agrees with you, any thoughts?

Well I think we all basically agree. There IS some overlap which is very much on the fringe. I do not mean that in their circles street gangs are not completely feared and respected, I know very well that they are to one degree or another a major force in their neighborhoods. Conversely, LCN does not necessarily in this day and age have a "neighborhood" to be a force in. They transcend industries, businesses and urban/suburban cultures in certain areas. It's just a different racket is all. I actually didn't mean that whole GD vs Outfit thread at all bc that was a way more put together thread than some of the others I've seen on here in the past (I don't post much so this is encompassing a lot going back). Suffice to say this, you will NEVER see American LCN with Uzis in the streets competing with UBNs in the NE or GDs in Chicago and that is where I just want to put to bed all this speculation that comes up on the forums. One is not necessarily better than the other (depending on where you're coming from and I certainly have my opinion). It's just that I hope us guys who are interested in all of this can at least put this whole "war myth" to bed the next time some guy comes on here talking about it.

All I asked in that thread is if the GD make money and have more power than the Outfit, because if they do that's surprising. I'm not the one who started talking about a city-wide war.

Once again, I was not referring to that thread. Yes it was part of it but overall it was not my target. Like I said, I don't get on here all that often to post and there have been many threads by many people who claim to be knowledgable that just make me shake my head when they think this is some sorta B-movie where
the west side will be fighting it out with Uzis on Arthur avenue with the Albanians or the bloods will be fighting over drug turf in east New York with the luccheses. That's done and to a certain extent, with limited exceptions it never was there in the first place. (Of course we just have to look at the Colombo war to see that my way of thinking doesn't apply to them, although I feel that ideas about a shooting war in philly, Boston etc. are RIDICULOUS)

Aaa ah ok, I got you, and I agree wholeheartedly lol

Peoples idea of how street gang vs street gang wars really happen are very skewed or exaggerated too, in general.
Then people imagining the Mafia vs a street gang than things get even more ridiculous.
Real life isn't like GTAV

Couldn't agree more

Crime is crime fellas

you're right brickhouse the mobster prefer to stay in the shadow made 10 and enjoy it and stay away from jail as is possible.
Crime is crime,yes king but the gang members as a child start selling drugs in a corner,after kill a men for be accepted in the gang and say that his future is the dead or the prison.
Mobster could arrive to 96 and continue to make money,while I don't know blood members of 60/70 y that continue to sell heroin on a corner.

The older guard move behind the scene basically.

Crime is not crime. There is organized and disorganized crime. It's as different as apples and oranges. Now is it morally different? Absolutely not. Breaking the law in the name of organized crime is not in any way shape or form morally better. Which is what I'm sure you meant. The whole point of the post was to put it to rest some of these posters on here who ask about "wars" and all that nonsense. You will NEVER see another mafia "war". Yes there may be disputes that result in property damage, beatings of associates, maybe even the odd hit or two but there will never be a war in the streets like the Colombo thing in the 90s. I think even more "loose cannon" groups such as the Albanians and Russians are smart enough to realize that bloodshed like that doesn't benefit anyone. Now Mexican cartels are a lik different but once again, they simply don't operate in the same sphere as American LCN.

What about Montreal?

I actually said above that I can't quote on Canada. The liberal laws there and overall failure to adapt to criminal problems enable them to continue in their war. If that happened in any american city it would be way different. Unlike many other posters here I also feel that the Montreal mafia is way more European based and concentrated. They are not a bonnano Sattelite. They follow old world ideals that are more CN, nagdrahta (sp), Camorra etc. than American LCN.

Really groundbreaking stuff - real life is not a videogame or a movie. Insightful.

If the thread is about the pinicle of OC in North America then it is indisputable that it is the drug cartels who by any definition are the most powerful.

A cartel (insert your choice here) would wipe the floor with even the Genovese.

But all operate in separate spheres with minimal overlap.

CN doesn't sling crack on corners, Los Zetas isn't big into loan or gambling.
Each has their niche.
But dollar wise the cartels shit on CN.
Hell if you take the bloods and the crips as nation wide syndicates, they do too.

Don't burst my bubble MH.

The Mafia vs. The Bloods would be a cool video game.

There's some political history with the Crips and Bloods forming around the time the Black Panthers broke up, and how those gangs were formed, with Pirus, Brims etc becoming enemies with the Crips. I'm sure this played a key role in the early battle lines, although I'm also sure that in the crack era greed and drug turf became a bigger motive.

So little is known about the early days of Latino gangs in LA. When you consider how old they are, I wonder if there's a connection to the parts of Mexico they came from. There's a couple of Maravilla gangs that have namesakes that denote a connection to regions and families in Mexico, such as Juarez Maravilla, Lopez Maravilla, etc. Bet there's some history there, especially when you consider that the Maravilla neighborhoods have a history of breaking ranks with Surenos and la Eme.

Could never consider bloods and crips as nationwide syndicates.

Well in CN you had families from Denver to Florida. How much did they share in common? But they were both a mafia family obeying the same rules and membership.
Exactly the same as a blood gang from Idaho to Alaska. Both obey the same rules and obide by the same membership.

Why is one considered a national syndicate and not the other?

Yeah that's true about the Crips and Bloods.
But there is an "LA gang style" that has existed since the early 1900s and maybe slightly earlier.
I think bloods and Crips adopted some of Chicano gang style that was around them back in the days. Clothes, graffiti, slang words, gang names etc. which probably set them apart from Black gangs in other parts of the country.
Today I think Blacks influence Chicano gangs far more in many ways. It reversed a lot.
Some early gangs were more racially mixed way back.
The tradition was always to Fued with nearby rivals.
Sometimes gangs would form alliances, but those usually don't last too long.

I don't know how Juarez MV got their name. I know Lopez Maravilla is named after the street in East La, Lopez avenue. But I get what you're saying.

I had to look up the term syndicate.
I guess one would get the impression that a nationwide syndicate is some big organized operation of different groups working together somehow.

I'm not sure how alike a blood hood in Idaho would be to one in California.
Honestly don't know.
I remember when I knew a lot of LA crips and bloods that thought the out of state ones were strange. I guess times have changed now and those things are more accepted.

Crips & Bloods origin isn't rooted in political history. The L.A chapter of the BPP started and collapsed with large black gangs such as Hoover Groovers, Brims, Green Jackets, and Bishops.

LCN can be looked as an umbrella including Camorra, Ndrangheta , Triads, & Yakuza. All labels or brand names for individual groups sharing similar code of conduct.

To clarify. This is true.
The theory I always heard is the lack groups such as the Black Panthers being around helped lead to the rise of Crips and Bloods. Not because of them.

Well, back when the LCN was national in scope, those families had strong enough connections with each other that leaders from all around the country could meet at Appalachin. You had a Commission that had national clout over all the families for half a century.

What does a Blood gang in New Jersey have to do with another in LA? Usually nothing. They have the same "gang culture" but often no direct connection. It's why it's easy for a given gang to have tens of thousands of members and be in several states coast to coast. But, in reality, it's various separate gangs that happen to use the same name, colors, etc. All sharing the same brand, you could say.

As for comparison to cartels in Mexico, as I've often said, a better one would be the Italian OC groups in Italy. They have the kind of money, manpower, and scope that rivals the cartels. The LCN in the US is a regional phenomenon at this point.

Street gangs are only organized if they are oriented towards making money. If they're not in the aim of making money then the gang is just a small group of friends, or in how I see the Bloods and the Crips which is a street fraternity... They're a bunch of crooks who are in the same clique and represent their neighborhood etc. but don't have an organizational structure.

The best way I understand a gang or a OC syndicate is to view it as a business, which crime basically is. And to see how powerful one is you look at what their gross revenue is.

The only area I see CN and street-gangs crossover with one another is in the drug trade. But then they are usually on different levels, the street-gangs are retails whilst the CN are distributers, supplying the gangs with drug packages and making a bigger profit.

@ Ivy

Actually there's where your incorrect to some degree. That Blood set in NJ have direct ties to the L.A set and stay in communication with each other ( ironic you pick that NJ locale) . I stated before that specific locations have direct ties through relatives ( Texas, Oklahoma , Louisiana ) , business ( Hoovers in Portland, Campanella Pirus in Alaska, Rollin 90s in Nashville) , or a combination of both. Every year they're meetings , visits, and dues paid to the original set.

@ Jhype11,

I haven't come across to many articles of LCN providing street gangs drugs albeit it's not possible. Street gangs develop their own drug connections with high ranking or de facto leaders being the middleman or the Kingpin himself. The leader(s) have their members traffic it to the retail level. Besides the drug trade , LCN & Street Gangs have done business in contraband smuggling, contract killings, counterfeit money ( Ivy or someone correct me, The Genovese & Latin King business ?) , information ( Outfit & C-Notes) , and few other activities we may not even be aware of yet.

There's a slight possibility that within the last 10 years or so that NYC families have used UBN as hit men to deal with rats or associates.

Have to disagree. The timeline is glaring. Crips formed around the time the Black Panthers broke up. I've even heard accounts that Raymond Washington and other Crip founders wanted to model the Crips after the Panthers, but that the rivalries were already too intense, so warfare ruled the day.

If people that joined the Crips did so because of the absence of the Panthers, then that by default associates the two. Politics does not have to mean the precise existence of a group, it can refer to an idea. Black youth in LA had the idea of being a part of an organization that would provide protection and a feeling of self worth. When the Panthers existed, that ideology led youth to the Panthers. When the Panthers broke up, that same idea led youth to the Crips. A political idea is part of the Crip foundation. There's no avoiding it.

I think it really depends on the set.
Some sets have closer ties to the original set. Some sets are a whole other thing and not named after an LA set.
I think this generation is different. It's very easy to stay in touch with people across the country now.
I remember when gangs first" met the Internet" how we first found out just how many out of town gangs were claiming LA sets and streets and how they reacted. Some hated and rejected the idea and others embraced it.

I don't doubt that some have ties here and there. But looking at the majority of local sets of various gangs, it's hard to see evidence of ties with each other across the country. At least not the kind of cohesion or national oversight the LCN had at one time.



There was a case back in the early 2000s of the Genovese family counterfeiting $20 bills with some Latin Kings. The contraband smuggling was, of course, the Luccheses and Bloods in the 2007 NJ case. But these were ad-hoc, rare examples. The

I do think you're right about the LCN supplying drugs to gangs. At least in terms of modern day. The LCN is a white organization and it's seems its drug operations are done within that sphere - supplying their own associates and independent dealers in white areas. There may be a few cases in more recent times but I think they're the exception to the rule. The Luccheses smuggling heroin into prison with the Bloods, as mentioned.

Another one, off the top of my head, was another NJ case from 2004, where you had a Lucchese associate supplying Oxycontin to the Bloods.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/nyr...ferer=&_r=0

@ Ivy

Thank you for recalling those cases. Would you think the 5 Families are hiring the UBN members to perform a few contract hits nowadays?

@ SoCalgangs / Ivy

That's what meant by specific sets and individuals have direct ties to L.A . Even the Netherlands crip set have direct ties as well. Look at the first black gang Rico'd in L.A , Pueblo Bishops, and their connections to nearby states. I'm not placing these semi regular meetings in the same format as the Applachin meeting but in regards to a general network of information sharing.

@ Oakasfan

The Panther's chapter in L.A started in 68 then lasted until 70-71 if I'm correct. Raymond's Crip started in that timeframe as a neighborhood club or crew and style their appearance after the panthers until 71. Raymond was still out there engage in the gang life and I haven't seen/heard/read any information that he became involved or associated with the local panthers. Many older crips who are still around and did interviews never mention no direct connections with the panthers beside co existing in the same time frame.

BGF had some political influence on some crip sets in which a political acronym form from within prison. I think that's where the political theme come from and not the streets. By Tookie's autobiography he stated that Crips was meant to be like a neighborhood watch association or comparable.

I assume you're talking about that recent case of a Genovese associate (Sal Delligatti) hiring some Bloods to kill another Genovese associate (Joseph Bonelli). It seemed to be an isolated case involving a personal beef. And from what I read, Delligatti's superiors didn't seem happy with how it all went down.

What benefits do Crip and Blood sets on the East coast or overseas have when they pay dues back to an original set back in LA? From my understanding they don't offer any protection and it seems that they are just paying dues to wear the same color and use the same gang signs. If they don't pay I wouldn't think that a couple of bloods are going to fly out to the Netherlands to carry out a beating lol

Right. That might be an isolated case but recall the drug threat assessment for the NYC metro mentioned UBN members involving in this particular situation.

My mistake on the pay dues to the original set, I meant in a form of respect or general together. Each set have dues paid internally.

Theres a number of cases in baltimore involving different sets of the bloods street gang being connected to their respective west coast counterparts either through paying dues or drug trafficking. One of those cases involved a high ranking blood from LA that was collecting dues and selling heroin in baltimore ended up torturing and killing someone. I think any city where you have a large number of blood and crip sets your gonna have more than a few of them having west coast ties in some form or another.

I
You're right. Fruit town brim = brick city brim newark , grape street is directed connected too, there's multiple sets from Cali that green lighted jersey to bang their shit. The UBNnwas started on the east but you have Cali sets that run in jersey in particular especially newark. Multiple branches of Piru, bounty hunter, brim as I said, neighborhood , villain and double ii (ill town which is east orange and inglewood) and then the crip sets too. But street gang organization is a joke today at least in jersey. I'm real close with multiple gang members , specifically sex money murda being I'm from paterson and they'll tell u themselves the shit is washed up. The streets in general are washed up. Blood , crip, king, wise guy, whatever... Shit is for the birds. They can keep it.

Where you from in Paterson? I'm from pompton plains and have spent a lot of time in Paterson

Even when some sets are connected in some way across country, ultimately it's going to be limited to a fraction of members.

Just thinking about LA alone, and how fragmented the various sets are among Crips and Bloods are, how much benefits is there having some dudes cross country claiming your street other than bragging rights. I get business crime element that comes with it in some cases but even there it isn't like the entire set at home is in on it.
Federal prisons there's more mixing of gang members in different regions. So I can see that as a potential benefit.
Just my thoughts.

South P... Main Street between crooks and Madison. But I spent a lot of time around school 8 , north main, 16th ave, union ave, 21st ave, and of course Cianci st. By cafe serino. I lived my high school years in Clifton but i still hung out in paterson. I live in bloomfield now with my family. I got two kids now. I stop by the old spots to watch a game and have an espresso but otherwise I stay outta that shit hole.