Truth About Modern day Chicago

I am not an expert, I just wanted to start a thread for disussions sake, also if someone can varify my information and/or explain the real current situation.

Each active crew is run by its own boss as its own family, yet they answer to three top guys who are sort of 'the boss of all bosses' or like the Comission of Chicago.

The DiFronzo era is over and they are replaced by Solly D's guys / Cataduella and Matassa.

I do not entirely know who runs what crew or what crew is still active though I know Chris Spina and the Marino-brothers are big players, with Chris operating in the West side crew and the Marino brothers are under Melrose Park.

The reason why Salvatore DeLaurentis (Solly D) was elected boss was mostly because he prevented a war between some old timers and the young guys. Can anyone explain what this situation was all about, also question; what would happen if Solly didn't prevent a war - what would've happened and who would be playing who?

Also (I am not from America but a friend of mine and I was discussing the Outfit, and he told me that two earlier associates got their button - Charlie Marzano and Salvatore Galioto with Little Joe Lombardo on the way up)

As I understand it, being an official associate of the outfit is like being made in any other original family. And being made is like being a capo.

A Chicago Capo is like a boss of a family with two head-guys beneath them, and Made guys/Soldiers acting as capos on the streets.

I'd like your guys input on this. Been scrolling the site for a few days now and I look forward getting to know you's. :-)

What does the mob really control anymore? Are they working with the cartels? Seems drugs is where all the money is now, and the cartels would seem to run that show considering their proximity to the source, and their sheer dominance in numbers on the U.S. inner city streets where its sold. How does the mafia cut into this? I'm sure they've got something going, but it's just hard to make sense of how the Italian mob still exists in today's U.S. underworld.

In the book by Giancana's brother, I seem to recall him quoting Sam's mockery of the way NY makes guys, that Chicago sees the process as childish, that their thinking is if you're a solid gangster and can be trusted, you're as good as in. Although, in Casino, Ace Roethstein (DeNiro) refers to Nicky (Pesci) as being "made". Maybe that's Scorsese sticking to what he knows, the way the mob does things where he's from.

Pesci's character - based on Spilotro was a made guy. But in NY they make young guys for power. Chicago wants to keep a low pro.

The Mob still controls alot of drugs, remember that the Bonanno's controlled around 70% of all the drugs that flew through New York at one point. (I think it was 70% of all the drugs that was distributed in america but I don't remember)

The Cigar Gigante was whacked out because he refued to share it with the other families, tho at this point I don't think the Bonannos had a seat at the commission.

The Mob today mostly lives of legitimate businesses, also gambling and loan sharking. I doubt Poker-players would knock on the door of a crack house full of black gangs to borrow money. Most young guys lives of drugs and there is still alot of union involvement. You know about the Garbage scheme? The Garbage men charged a couple of bucks extra for picking up the garbage and the extra money went to the Mob. Can you imagine this in cities like Chicago and NY? where there are millions of people. They also invest in businesses such as Strip clubs, and collect their wig.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/mafi...=20150530021806

can someone verify this chart? Makes the Chicago Mob look huge with Italian operatives etc.

The way you got the made and associate thing thought out is how I understand it as well but you have to remember going back to the beginning of the outfit is it wasn't what you would describe as a "traditional new york type" mafia family. It was a gang made up of many different nationalities. Now it may have evolved into a more Italian thing but non Italians have always had major juice in Chicago.

During Al's day I believe it was a much more disorganized thing than everyone has been led to believe.

As far as today goes I don't know to many cartels involved in gambling, juice loan and other traditional mob type activities. Chicago's mob made it this far without any major drug guys so I don't see why it would hurt them now. Crime is crime, folks need to realize its not all controled by the mafia nor has it ever been. Mafia is just a nice bow that has tied everything together to sells movies newspapers books etc. Go to the store Sargento costs more than Kraft with the same cheese inside the package.

You mean I just imagine my quesadilla tasting better with Sargento?

Payday loans, home equity. Most people are finding themselves in debt that way, as opposed to having to go on the run for owing the mob money. Although I've heard of a few people on the run for owing drug dealers money. I've figured most of the mob must be in legitimate business now. Wonder how many inroads them mob made into Wall Street. My union is pretty progressive, but there's still a few guys around that look like they might have a couple of "friends" back east.

It's a little exaggerated. It's also fairly old.

What "Marino brothers" are you talking about?

You will get no arguements from me here. Look at the recent case in Chicago. Guys gets a $300,000 loan and when it comes time to pay he cries extortion to the feds. Cartels opporate through the latin gang in America. If that gang doesn't pay for a shipment everyone is dead even the pets and so it goes down the line

I'm just saying that cartels being in control of drug aren't hurting Chicago's mob. As far as the other things you mention your right they have hurt all loansharks. But many folks rent house and don't have credit. Online gambling doesn't offer credit. Plus now-a-days betting with a bookie is the for lack of a better word "sexy" thing to do. Even more so if they are an "associate" which everyone is labeled in this day and age.

Don't get me wrong if your a mob guy now a days its because you want to be.

Much of what you describe above, as far as the make up of the Outfit is concerned, seems more based on long held theories than demonstrable fact. If we're talking about modern day, an Outfit crew is no more it's own family than crews in other cities. I'm not sure what three top guys you're referring to. If you look over the past decade you had DiFronzo as official boss. Marcello and later Sarno as acting boss. Those two both being from the Melrose Park Crew shows that crew has been the main power in the family. Andriacchi being right up there of course. An Outfit associate is just that - an associate. The days of a non-Italian associate, or an Italian associate for that matter, being high up in the Outfit hierarchy are long gone. Some guys may be in important positions but there are no more Humphreys, Guziks, or Alex's. And by the same token, an Outfit soldier is just that - a soldier. They may or may not have associates under them, just as in other families.

People need to stop trying to make the Outfit more different than it is. Many of the differences are a thing of the past, if they ever existed at all. The Outfit started using the same blood and fire ceremony. It essentially has the same hierarchy and ranks as other families.



Are we talking the mob as a whole or Chicago specifically?

The only families that could still be considered major players in the drug trade are the NY families. And even they have been marginalized to one degree or another.

The Outfit has always had relatively little involvement in narcotics. So the cartels being the dominant force hasn't had all that much effect. The Outfit today makes its money off much of the same sources of income it has for years. Illegal gambling, specifically bookmaking and poker machines, most of all. Bid-rigging for city contracts, as well as some remaining labor union involvement. Some ad-hoc stuff like robberies and fencing stolen goods. You can look over the past 15 years and the drug cases are few and far between.

Drugs are still a big money maker for the NY families but the key isn't them being on top of the drug trade but it being only one of their sources of income. The NY families are very diversified. And diversification has been a key to their longevity. They still control most of the bookmaking, and continue to be involved in other forms of illegal gambling like video poker machines, numbers, and card games. Loansharking goes hand in hand with the gambling. They continue to be involved in extortion of businesses. Also labor racketeering in key industries like construction, demolition, the waterfront, trucking, waste hauling, etc. They've always been quick to move into some new scam, whether it be gas tax fraud, stock fraud, health care fraud, telecommunications fraud, etc.

As I said above, diversification has been key to the mob's longevity. And that applies to narcotics as well. They aren't the main suppliers anymore but they continue to be involved in the trade, and that includes cocaine, marijuana, ecstasy, heroin, and prescription drugs.

I'm not even so sure DiFronzo is even official boss anymore Ivy. He is said to be losing his mind. Unless they kept him there in name only out of respect. But I really dont think he is calling any shots anymore.

I'm still wondering what the whole Youngsters vs. Old timers-war was about, that Solly D 'supposedly' diverted.

Thanks alot for good response!

The traditional-style with the bloody burning picture ceremony started with Aiuppa and ended with Marcello I think. I don't picture Chicago still going old school, and not alot but some of their members are still foreign/Jewish.

Ivy, do you know what crew is still active and who's who in charge of what?

There are no members that are foreign or Jewish. Associates maybe, members of a crew maybe, but not LCN-inducted Outfit members. Nobody knows if the "traditional" ceremony ended with Marcello or if it even began with Aiuppa. There was a ceremony prior to Aiuppa's reign as boss but accounts vary as to how it was given. I would imagine that most of the guys at the top of the heap were "traditionally" inducted into the Outfit and would probably continue that tradition.

That's why I said if you look over the past decade. DiFronzo may indeed no longer be boss, just as neither Marcello or Sarno are acting bosses now.



I suppose a good argument can be made that the blood and fire ceremony started in the Aiuppa era but I dont know if it's ended. The Outfit has made members since the last known ceremony in the early 1980's. And we can't call anyone who is Jewish or otherwise non-Italian a "member" because they're not.

I think you may have at most the same 4 crews that were mentioned back in 2007 - Elmwood Park, Grand Avenue, Melrose Park, and 26th Street. But who specifically is running them is harder to identify, at least as far as official info or other news beyond forum speculation. It does seem to be common consensus that Albert Vena oversees Grand Avenue. And I've seen nothing to suggest Frank Caruso Jr doesn't still oversee 26th Street. I see names get thrown around but it's not as clear to me regarding Elmwood Park and Melrose Park. Or an overall administration for that matter. I'm content to wait for more solid info.

I could be wrong Lol. But if I was going to be in possession of over 160 pounds of cocaine I would have ways to get rid of it. Which would not be relatively little involvement in narcotics. Everyone Knows the five families have more members/associates than Chicago, so trying to compare one family with no competition to five families competing for rackets is off base. They will have more things that they are involved in at any given time because there are many more members in New York. You can say a orange is an apple, it still doesn't make it an apple. But to each their own.


State's Attorney Alvarez Announces Charges
in Rackeetering Operation
Cook County prosecutors execute second long-term investigation using RICO laws


Five people have been charged with Super Class X felonies in connection with a proactive state racketeering investigation targeting members of an organized crime street crew that engaged in a wide array of criminal activity including drug trafficking, home invasions and kidnapping, Cook County State’s Attorney Anita Alvarez announced today.

Cook County prosecutors announced RICO and other related charges against the defendants who are associated with a sophisticated and high tech criminal enterprise that operated in the Chicago area for years. The criminal complaints against the defendants were filed in Cook County Criminal Court today. The case marks the second state RICO prosecution by the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office since the Illinois Street Gang RICO law was passed in 2012.

Three men have been charged with the Super Class X felony offenses of Racketeering Conspiracy and Criminal Drug Conspiracy, including Robert Panozzo, age 54, and Paul Koroluk, age 55, as well as Maher Abuhabsah, age 33. Panozzo’s son, Robert Jr, age 22, was charged with Criminal Drug Conspiracy, and Koroluk’s wife, Maria Koroluk, age 53, was charged with Possession with Intent to Deliver a Super Class X amount of cocaine as a result of this investigation.

After the bond hearing, State’s Attorney Alvarez noted that, like the prior RICO case brought by her office against the violent Black Souls Street Gang, her investigation was triggered when a criminal enterprise plotted to kill a witness, saying that “in both matters, organized crime sought to attack the criminal justice system itself, and now, armed with a proper state RICO statute, my office can fight back effectively and hold the right offenders accountable for their crimes.”

“The completion of this second proactive investigation is yet another example of the vital importance that our Illinois RICO law now plays in our ability to combat violent organized crime in the state of Illinois, and I am pleased to work in collaboration with our law enforcement partners at the local and federal level once again, and use this critical tool to send a strong and lasting message to criminals who plague our communities with violence and crime,” Alvarez said.

“Operation Crew Cut” was a 10-month long-term covert investigation, which targeted members of the Panozzo-Koroluk street crew (P-K street crew), who at times posed as police officers to rob drug cartel stash houses for illegal contraband including drugs and cash proceeds. The ongoing pattern of criminal activity included home invasions, robberies, kidnapping and insurance fraud among other offenses. The joint state-federal investigation included the use of advanced law enforcement tools such as court-ordered electronic surveillance, consensual overhears, tracking orders, and search warrants of cell phones and email accounts.

According to prosecutors, the investigation began in October 2013 after law enforcement authorities developed evidence that a member of the P-K street crew attempted to solicit the murder of a state witness who was set to testify against members of the P-K street crew in a pending home invasion and kidnapping case. Specifically, investigators discovered that Robert Panozzo Sr., along with other individuals, solicited another individual to kill the victim on that case to prevent them from testifying at the trial.

Based on that information, prosecutors, along with other law enforcement agencies began the proactive racketeering investigation into the illegal activities of the close-knit P-K street crew. The investigation revealed evidence that the crew engaged in a wide array of crimes including drug trafficking, murder, home invasion, armed violence, burglary and weapons offenses. As the investigation progressed, it became clear that the scope of the crimes committed by members of the P-K crew were quite substantial and violent.

The investigation also revealed that the members of the P-K street crew routinely obtained information from Chicago street gang members to determine the location and contents of drug cartel stash houses. The P-K street crew members would then utilize high tech equipment, such as video surveillance and GPS trackers placed on the cars of drug dealers, to determine the location of the stash house. Once the location was obtained, P-K street crew members would then enter the houses, posing as police officers and steal large quantities of contraband including drugs and other items.

According to court documents, during the course of one home invasion and kidnapping in 2013, Panozzo sliced off the ear of a victim at the location after Panozzo heard the man speaking English after claiming he only spoke Spanish. During this particular incident, the P-K street crew stole over 25 kilograms of cocaine and two cars.

The defendants in this case were arrested on July 16, 2014 after Panozzo, Koroluk, Abuhabsah and Panozzo Jr, attempted to steal approximately 44 kilograms of cocaine stored at what they believed was a drug dealer’s stash house. Unbeknownst to the defendants, however, law enforcement authorities had obtained court authorization to rig the house with audio and surveillance equipment as part of a covert sting operation. The defendants entered the home and took possession of cocaine, and shortly after emerging from the location, the men were arrested by police who were monitoring the operation.

The “Street Gang Rico” bill written by the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office and passed by the state legislature in 2012, allows prosecutors at the state level to target gang and organized crime enterprises who engage in a pattern of crimes involving violence such as illegal weapons, sex-offenses, drug trafficking and other offenses.

The investigation was conducted by the State’s Attorney’s Office in cooperation with the Chicago Police Department, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Cook County Sheriff’s Office, the Drug Enforcement Administration, and the United States Attorney’s Office.

The public is reminded that criminal charging documents contain allegations that are not evidence of guilt. The defendants are presumed innocent and are entitled to a fair trial at which time the state has the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

What FBI memo or press release stated this?

Ivy, if you read the articles about Soll D it says he prevented a war between the younger generation and the old Class, have you got any idea of what this argument was about? Or why they would call it a war?

The only source for that was Scott Burnstein's website, which many people take with a grain of salt. I typically like to wait until another source confirms something before running with it.

First, one doesn't need to compare all 5 NY families to the Outfit. A comparison with any one of them would make the point.

Second, I'm familiar with the case above. It's more of a robbery case than a drug case and either way it's very much the exception to the rule when it comes to the Outfit.



While it's possible the Outfit had a ceremony prior to Aiuppa, the lack of direct evidence is hard to ignore. Especially considering wiretaps of Outfit leaders years before that.

The earliest known ceremonies were during the Aiuppa era, if I'm not mistaken. I think that's why many assume it started sometime during then. And prior to the Family Secrets case, it seemed it was still conventional thinking that the Outfit did not use the ceremony.

That said, I've seen at least two Laboreres documents from the 1990s that talk about Outfit members having gone through a formal ceremony to be considered made. And this was obviously before Nick Calabrese flipped.

As I said, the last known ceremonines were in the early 1980s. But we know of guys who have likely been made since then. Do we assume the Outfit just stopped using it? At the same time, it's interesting that we haven't heard any specifics after those early 1980s ones.



That's my thinking, though I didn't want to spell it out lest some be offended for me not taking what Scott says at face value.

Speaking of Ivy; who would you say to the last guy to be "Made" by the Chicago Family?

I have no idea who the last guy to be made was. But, if I'm not mistaken, guys like Sarno and Cataudella came after those early 1980s ceremonies. In fact, in the early 2000s Cataudella was still listed as an associate.

@ivyleague

u do realize that the alleged boss of the outfit is from the lake county crew right

chicago still has family member of old labor racketeers still involved in the teamsters

i'm sure they have as much clout as atleast one of the 5 families

I've pointed out to you before that what you call the "Lake County crew" is really just part of the Cicero (Melrose Park) crew. And, considering the last two acting bosses have come from that crew, it wouldn't surprise me if DeLaurentis has assumed that role. But have we seen this verified or even mentioned anywhere else besides Scott and one or two other blogs?

There have been two confirmed making ceremonies in the late eighties: At least three guys in 1988 (Chiaramonti, DiForti, Scarpelli) and Sal Delaurentis at the Como Inn in 1989. They were still doing the ceremony by then because Rocky Infelise expressed surprise that the old ceremony was still in use.

The ceremony was used prior to the eighties as well, although details about it vary.

Exception to the rule is your go to when talking about the Outfit huh.lol. The comparison is that with 5 families competing, men have to find other rackets to make money in or be broke. Chicago is one family. Also if you are claiming that all 5 families are more powerful than Chicago, that's laughable, maybe they have more man power but Chicago could go out and make 30 idiots tomorrow and be infested with rats like New York. Power isn't going out and making someone just because he is such and such's second cousin. You forget that the Outfit owns more cops than probably every single New York Family. Probably more than the lower three families put together. Almost every Chicago indictment in the last 30 years has a cop indicted in it or helping the Outfit., some with multiple cops. Also you said that the Outfit had "relatively little involvement in drugs." While I agree with that for the upper echelon, I still think they have more than "relatively little involvement". And finally the Outfit is involved in other rackets, prostitution, real estate scams, police and political corruption, and while the political corruption isn't what it used to be, they still have powerful Chicago politicians in their pockets. As for different types of fraud the Outfit is involved in. Less than a decade ago Sam Galioto was indicted for Medicare Fraud, was just indicted for a real estate related scam. Before that Centracchio was involved in abortion clinics. About 17 years ago Charles Marzano was selling cocaine and laundering the proceeds through the CME.(Chicago Mercantile Exchange) Chicago's "Wall Street".

New York being compared to Chicago in 2016............

Ivy you should have learned your lesson with stupid threads like this. I did

GDN v UBN

Here try new Chi v NY criminal challenge

LoL

The stuff about made Guy or not in the Chicago outfit. Check out page 155 in "organized crime in Chicago" by lombardo. According to him "there is a definite distinction between being a made guy and being a worker within the Chicago outfit."

Only Bosses and persons of special status within the organization are made guys. Not at all like in NYC, I guess.

Frank the breeze was made as late as 1983 and he was an outfit Guy since the early sixties. It makes more sense if you think of what Lombardo writes.

Thanks to Snakes from blackhand forum



*=Confirmed position/status

Estimated Administration:
Boss: John DiFronzo/86*
Acting Boss: Salvatore DeLaurentis/77
Underboss: Salvatore Cataudella/63
Senior Adviser (Consigliere): Marco D'Amico/79

Suspected Territorial Bosses:
Frank Caruso/69 - 26th Street*
Rudolph Fratto/71 - Elmwood Park
James Inendino/72 - Cicero
Albert Vena/67 - Grand Avenue*

Suspected Members:
Robert Abbinanti/60
Joseph Andriacchi/83
Joseph Calato/65
Michael Caracci/77
Bruno Caruso/71
Leo Caruso/71
Nicholas Cataudella/55
Joseph DiFronzo/81
Peter DiFronzo/82
Robert Dominic/61
Anthony Dote/63
Nicholas Ferriola/40
Gary Gagliano/71
Nicholas Guzzino/74
Rocco Lombardo/75
Michael Magnafichi/53
Michael Marcello/64
Dino Marino/57
Louis Marino/83
John Matassa, Jr./64
Lawrence Pettit/87
Michael Spano, Sr./75
Paul Spano/84
Anthony Spina/61
Christopher Spina/63
Michael Talarico/63
Raymond Tominello/75

Imprisoned Members:
Robert Bellavia/76 (05/01/2016)
Joseph Lombardo/86 (IP/L)
James Marcello/71 (IP/L)
Robert Salerno/81 (11/21/2024)
Michael Sarno/57 (10/25/2032)
Joseph Scalise/77 (05/28/2019)

Suspected Members Who Have Died Since 1998:
Donald Angelini (2000)
Dominick Basso (2001)
Carmine Bastone (2002)
Salvatore Bastone (1998)
Frank Bonavolante (2002)
Dominick Brancato (2005)
Frank Buccieri (2004)
Eugene Cacciatore (2000)
Marshall Caifano (2003)
Frank Calabrese, Sr. (2012)
Michael Castaldo (2005)
Anthony Centracchio (2001)
James Cerone (2012)
Anthony Chiaramonti (2001) (Murdered)
Dominic Cortina (1999)
Phillip Cozzo (2015)
James Vincent Cozzo (2007)
Charles DiCaro (2011)
James DiForti (2000)
Joseph Grieco (2013)
Ernest Rocco Infelise (2005)
Angelo LaPietra (1999)
Phillip Mesi (2001)
William Messino (2002)
John Monteleone (2001)
Bernard Morgano (2010)
Romeo Nappi (2001)
Dominick Palermo (2005)
Alfred Pilotto (1999)
Aldo Piscitelli (2013)
Fred Roti (1999)
Donald Scalise (2013)
Albert Tocco (2005)
Alfonso Tornabene (2009)
Anthony Zizzo (2006) (Disappeared/Presumed Murdered)

Members Who Have Flipped:
Victor Arrigo/Soldier (Dead/Never Testified)
Nicholas Calabrese/Soldier
Gerald Scarpelli/Soldier (Dead/Suicide/Recanted Testimony)

Pardon my French here, but the Chicago Outfit are a bunch of old fucks..

Chicago would need to make 60 guys 'tomorrow' to be just as large as NYC's smallest.
That's a 200% increase to be as big as NYC's bottom family.

For the record. And for perspective.

There are definitely younger guys out there but until somebody cooperates or gets busted it may be a while before we know who they are.

For the record. And for perspective I could give a **** what you think, I was just throwing a number out. I hope you were also, if not your number is 10 or more higher than it should be, even counting members doing life in prison in both families.

I think you're right about the late 1980s. Thanks for the correction.



When talking about the relative few narcotics cases, yes, because that's what they are. And this latest Grand Ave robbery crew bust is no different.



New England is one family too. So is what's left of the mob in Detroit. So what's your point?

Some have this idea that all the NY guys are tripping all over each other. These people are apparently unaware of just how big the greater NY metro area is. We're talking the 5 NYC boroughs, Long Island, Westchester and northern suburbs, Southwest Connecticut, and North-into-Central New Jersey. This area dwarfs the area in terms of mob territory anywhere else in the country. There's a reason it's always had 5 families - the 5 biggest families - and that's because it's big enough.

You can look at the gambling cases alone as a comparison. Those elsewhere in the country, including Chicago, are rather small compared to the ones in NY.



You talk as if the relatively small numbers in Chicago is all by design. While they have appeared to streamline their operations and downsize in order to have a smaller profile, attrition has been a big part of this. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. People, including myself, were surprised at the most recent estimates by the feds - 25 to 30 members and a little over 100 associates spread across 4 crews at most.



Yes, we still see a dirty cop here or there get busted in Outfit cases. But it's certainly not "almost every" Chicago indictment and there's nowhere near the kind of widespread, institutional corruption like there used to be. And you can find similar examples of dirty cops getting busted here and there in NY as well. To argue for Outfit power based on an outdated idea of police influence isn't going to fly.



There's no evidence for that. Like I said, the drug cases involving Outfit guys at any level are few and far between. At best comparable to some of the other small families outside NY.



If you go down the list of Outfit related cases, many of those things you mentioned above are limited, ad-hoc ventures. Nowhere near the scope we saw in NY with the gas tax scam, phone card scam, pump and dump stock scams, real estate scams, telephone cramming and porn site scams, etc. The political and police corruption is also very limited and often based on speculation and innuendo.



I hear you. I have mixed feelings at best on it. People think I just live to get into these tired arguments but I dont. But when someone starts a thread with a post about the Outfit that is just chalk full of wrong or outdated info, what are we to do. No offense to the original poster but much of it was stuff we saw said about the Outfit on the forums a decade ago and I thought had been largely refuted.



Sounds a lot like NY if you ask me...


Affidavit of John J. O'Rourke, former FBI agent and Independent Hearing Officer Laborers Union of North America


15. The FBI maintains an inventory of members and associates of the Chicago Outfit.

16. The FBI defines a "made member" as a person who has participated in a formalized ceremony and has the right to share in the profits of the Chicago Outfit. A made member has the right to run his own street crew; to make loans known as "juice loans"; to extort "street tax" from local businesses and from gamblers and bookmakers; and to otherwise take control of gambling and bookmaking in his area. A made members is also entitled to the respect of other made members.

17. An "associate" of the Outfit is a person who works on behalf of a made member in the day-to-day activities of the Outfit such as collecting interest on juice loans; collecting street tax; contacting bookmakers; and settling debts. Other "associates" of the Outfit do not participate in the day-to-day criminal activities of Organized Crime but help facilitate these activities.

18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.

http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php



It stands to reason that not all of those guys listed above are made if about 30 members has been the max cited by the FBI in recent years.

Also, that administration is largely speculation at this point. I'd wait for more concrete info besides some Internet blogs.



Take the Colombo family, which is generally considered to be the smallest family in NY. It is estimated to have about 100 members and approximately 500 associates.

I typically don't put a whole lot of stock in associate estimates but, for the sake of comparing apples to apples, look at the estimates for the Outfit. 30 members at most and a little over 100 associates.

So, a manpower of something like 600 for the Colombos and perhaps 150 for the Outfit. The smallest NY family being 4 times the size. Those figures for the Outfit are rather similar to estimates for the other remaining small families outside NY, just with the member-to-associate ratio being a little different.

In fact you would probably have too add up all the members left not only in Chicago but everywhere else outside the Northeast to come close to the size of the Colombos.

Perspective.

@ivyleague

chicago still has juice in the damn teamsters union

the difronzo's company did constrution chicago public schools (political corruption)

the grand avenue guys seem to be heavy into narcotics if they're robbing stash houses

the fact that illinois is still crooked will always help the outfit

@ Anybody
What do you guys think about this, seriously?



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-union-pledge-raises-questions/





I honestly feel like it takes a Chicagoan to understand, cause you guys just kinda don't......

I'm aware of the contacts Difronzo's companies got. You could also bring up the Hired Truck Program. I'm not saying there is no corruption. I'm saying there isn't the kind of widespread, institutionalized corruption that some of you guys seem to be insinuating.

The Grand Ave guys targeted stash houses, stealing both money and drugs. Of course they're going to turn around and sell the drugs they've stolen and not just flush them down the toilet. But we're not talking about a crew specifically designed to be in the drug business, ie having an ongoing operation of buying drugs from a supplier and then distributing those drugs to other dealers. These guys were a robbery crew (a much more traditional Outfit venture) who happened to target places where drugs would be. There involvement in narcotics was more of an indirect, ad-hoc nature.



What don't we outside of Chicago not understand?

You look at that 2004 Stier investigation report and it alleges quite a bit - union members associating with Outfit figures, bid rigging, bribery, banned officials on union payroll, union fund embezzlement, inflated service costs, sham contracts, etc - across several Teamsters locals.

But it's interesting how little, if anything, in the way of indictments came as a result of this investigation. Do we believe that the Outfit had the "juice" to stave off indictments from the Justice Department? Or was much of what was in the report more of a residual nature?

I'm reminded of that "Mob Lite" article back in 2000 where Howard Abadinsky talks about the more restrained approach the Outfit takes to labor racketeering. And I'm aware of examples people will bring up , such as family members of past Outfit figures being involved in insurance providers that service unions (like Jack Cerone or David Dorfman), the Colis with Local 727, James Glimco with Local 777, and so on.

The question is, at what point does much of this stop being labor racketeering activity directly run by and for Outfit interests and begin being more about the descendants of past Outfit figures naturally remaining in unions or related business and operating at various levels of legality?

I suppose one could argue this is something of the image you had in mind when you talked about the way the mob in NY should have gone when it came to unions and legitimate business. However, if we're talking about organized crime, by definition there has to be a central hierarchical organization - a mob - at its core. For all the remaining union examples people can bring up, one cannot ignore the fact that the core in Chicago has dwindled considerably to the point where there are little more than two dozen actual members. Once the membership is gone, can one even argue a mob still exists?

Sure, Anthony Lapiana made a ton of money selling off his insurance company. He and his blood family are set for life and I imagine he kicked up a good chunk of change to his mob superiors. But none of that changes the overall state of the mob in Detroit. Same thing goes for Chicago above.

There isn't much left of the old Chicago crew. There are guys still around, but it's a complete joke compared to what it once was.

And yes, there are a few millionaires still around, but that doesn't mean the family is strong. Same thing with Detroit. I could go into more details, but Ivy has pretty much said it all.

This is a list of the living, *confirmed* made members of the Outfit. These are individuals who have been identified as made by law enforcement sources:

Calabrese, Nicholas (flipped)
Caruso, Bruno
Caruso, Frank
DeLaurentis, Salvatore
Fratto, Rudolph
Lombardo, Joseph
Magnafichi, Michael
Marcello, James
Matassa, John Jr.

The following are individuals who can be considered made by deductive reasoning, such as holding a leadership position or as a boss of a territory (but only those confirmed by law enforcement sources as holding such):

Andriacchi, Joseph
Sarno, Michael
Spano, Michael Sr.
Vena, Albert

Every Chicago case ad-hoc, Check. Too funny, like I said before, in New York they have to give a lot more people a taste of everything. In Chicago they only involve who they need to because they are not the size of New York. Spano,Sarno,Family Secrets, and the Panozzo crew had real police gear including badges, now they could have stole them out of a house but I doubt they where given the OK to rob a cops house.

the outfit is an active family indictments have showen that but if you really think the outfit in 2016 can be compared to New York or even compared to how it was 20 years ago well then I really don't know what to say

It's a family in real decline it's active with a hierarchy but it is a shadow of its self

Its funny everything in Chicago is residual. Check. But when Rocco and Johnnie Miranti from the international board of the novelty and production workers union got busted you said they were in the mob, which I take your word on, but there was no proof, at least not at that time I havent kept up on it.But the two top guys on that board are Paul Spano's son Mark, and Turk Torrello's son Steve. But they are not doing anything for the Outfit. Lol. Hey but we have been here before. I'm not trying to make them out to be anything they arent. They are a smaller family with quite a bit of power. As Frank Calabrese said they were making it a smaller christmas tree, with the loyalty that was once there.
http://www.leagle.com/decision/200813805...S%20JOINT%20BD.

Please share your infinite wisdom. With all these great details about how the Outfit is the same as Detroit. I think even Ivy agrees you are wrong there.

O.K. I'll chime in a little:

What I have notice is two-fold for me that I want to talk about.

The Last 15-20 years the "Crews" are smaller - granted

Older, Wiser, Jail, Death, etc. next generation not as interested in the old ways of doing business needed to adopt new ways to combat - Smart phones, Cameras. People more easily to become rats - save their own skin.

There was a last hoorah when Mayor Daley decided not to run for re-election. Mayor Daley (Old Ways to make money - all systems go) When Rahm became Mayor in 2011 everyone started to notice a change with people in the positions with the City and County. As each year past more people had to hide for cover and try to find other ways to exert pressure/compliance. As Rahm moved his people in and started doing forensics Accounting and Legal Team everywhere. A lot of people moved on grab their pensions whether with Government or even some of the Unions. Move to other Private sector Jobs.

Things had to be more creative and exert control in new areas as you understood what was coming down the pipeline that interested the new administration.

Chicago - just is adapting to the Game as rules change. Carve out a niche wherever and however you can.

I never said those families were the same. What I'm saying is both of those families aren't strong. Even the weakest NY family is stronger than Chicago.

If you are talking about number of made men in the weakest New York family then your right. If you are talking about the actual power in the city they live in you are wrong. I don't see anyone in the upper echelon of the Outfit living in trailers and their wives on food stamps. Numbers don't always equal power. I don't underestimate New York like you do Chicago. New York has a huge numbers, and that helps with muscle but it also leads to more rats and longer sentences,and turnover in members. Is the Outfit huge, no not by any means, but its bigger than you are giving it credit for. Not to mention in Chicago almost anyone in politics is corruptible. That goes for a lot of police in the suburbs also.

Sure you didn't. I take it you think Boston and Philly are stronger also?

They have no political influence anymore. Those days are long gone my friend. I do agree that numbers don't always matter, but when you are down to 25 made guys (many of them very old) then you can be pretty sure it's pretty much over. Times have truly changed. Chicago is on it's last leg.

Yeah, but they never made that many guys anyways so that number is a bit deceiving.

lol "times have truly changed." Well of course they have? Who are you Yogi Berra?

I personally don't think Chicago makes anyone anymore. Why would they? If being made was created to assert status on the street, but you don't want anyone to know your status anymore, what in the fuck is the point?

Chicago guys have never referred to it as "the family." It was always "the business" or "the racket." It's always been about money and while there was definitely a pecking order, Chicago was never like other cities.

Consider that Mikey Davis just went to prison because he extended a juice loan to the nephew of Melrose Park's Mayor. Consider Emil Schullo's son becoming the Chief of the Cicero Police while his fucking father was still in jail. When Emil got out, he was invited to all of the Cicero Police ceremonies by that fat fuck Mayor Larry Dominick, who married the nice of Augie Taddeo. Dominick's two campaign managers, Vince Iaccino and Joe Calomino are relatives of the Buccieri family. Consider the photos I used to post of Fat Carl Dote welcoming the Des Plaines alderman at his new restaurant. Consider that it came out in 2007 that State Senator Jimmy DeLeo was doing business deals with the Spilotro's. To this day, Solly D hosts the Island Lake PD at his lakehouse barbeques. Loose connections? Sure. But use common sense.

For those who consider the mob a "perfect science" with absolute verifications, you really need lessons in common sense and how to excercise it.

The political corruption in Chicago is so deep-rooted and ingrained with bloodlines and nepotism it will take years and years to dilute it.

When other posters say that Chicago "isn't like" the other LCN groups they are telling the truth. Think about Frank Schweihs, a German-Italian who basically ran the Grand Avenue crew on the street after Louie Eboli died and told other made guys (Mike Glitta) to "fuck themselves". Albeit on behalf of Joey Lombardo but I can't imagine that happening anywhere else but Chicago. In that sense, yes, it is very different than the other families.

I didn't say everything with Chicago is ad-hoc. But I'm talking about the overall state of the Outfit so I'm looking at overall trends.

And going by your "the Outfit has all of Chicago to itself" thinking, one could argue the handful of guys left in LA must really be rolling in the money. That's a huge territory and there's only a few of them.



Bigger than who is giving it credit for? We have the most recent estimates by the feds, which nobody here is on a position to argue with. Even if you want to differentiate when it comes to the importance of made guys in Chicago, whether they're still making members, etc, all you have to do is add the members and associates to get an overall picture of the Outfit's size and manpower. 25-30 members and a little over 100 associates. So perhaps 150 or so. Once again, to put that in perspective, that's similar to the other small families remaining outside NY.

Numbers can very much equal power. Would anyone argue there's no difference between a 200 member family and a 20 members family. Even more so, numbers provide durability and longevity. Carlos Marcello may have been very powerful in his day but where is the New Orleans mob now? Gone. And it's because they didn't have the numbers.

Also, we should be looking at overall trends and not one Colombo guy to make a point. I'm not bringing up Magnafichi being caught shoplifting four times in recent years.



I agree that there is still a lot of corruption in Chicago. It just doesn't all revolve around or is even connected to the mob like some seem to insinuate.

Also, while one can find certain unique things about the Outfit, there are more that make Chicago similar to other mob families. Much of what made it different is in the past. Sometimes I think people exaggerate the differences in order to judge Chicago by another set of criteria in order to make it look stronger than it is.

Bigger than Ralph was thinking is what I was talking about. Go ahead and bring up Mags he got booted out of the Outfit more than a decade ago. We can agree to disagree. That's fine with me. Also the most recent quote from the Feds was from 08' there could be more or less members we don't have a clue. When was the last time the feds put out an estimate of each New York family? I have no doubt you have to have more men in New York to survive or compete, especially because of the size of the Gambino's and Genovese. I also am not saying that the Outfit took the right position by keeping smaller numbers of soldiers/not necessarily made. But they did it on purpose, just like they could one day decide to expand, not that I'm saying they are going to. There were claims that Marcello and Sarno both held making ceremony's. But who knows. You are right it was definitely not a smart move for Marcello to keep New Orleans small, but I believe part of that was the Italian population in N.O. dwindled. Chicago still has plenty of Italians, and younger guys they could bring in to the fold at anytime, and no I'm not saying they would make 200 men. You bring up 200 made men and I can tell you right now there are only two families close to or at that, and the Colombo's only have about 90 give or take 5 or 10 and about 20 are in jail and 11 or so are doing life. That's a far shot from 200. But I like how the numbers talk was about the difference between the Outfit and the weakest family, and you come up with 200 vs 20 for your example. Too funny we could do this forever. (and I know you were not referencing the smallest family in NY at 200.) Comparing LA with 4 guys total left to the Outfit that you claim has 150 left is funny. Your a funny guy. And there is a lot of political corruption but the Outfit isn't involved at all. Not only funny he is an insider to.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/03/15/mob-informant-talks-about-chicago-politics/

https://www.americannewspost.com/frankco...nois-politics/2

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/7/1168107/-Is-the-Mob-cleaning-up-at-Chicago-s-O-Hare-Airport

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illino...mob-bomber.html

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20140917...h-ward-alderman

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1020556/brown-alderman-mob-sro

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Mob...-267803551.html

http://thevillagefreepress.org/2015/11/1...-resource-fair/

http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-poli...ns-badge-on-son

I'm fascinated by The Outfit and the mysteriousness about how they operate and how big/small they are only magnifies it..

I bought and read The Outfit by Gus Russo and it amazed me how influential and powerful they were in the 30's all the way to the mid 70's. It was a pity that the book stopped there.

I would like to know more about the recent stuff of the outfit, I know their power dwindled, but I'm still very interested.
I think I'm going to read Operation Family Secrets next..

Do you have any tips for a good read about the outfit slick??

That's wrong. You should do some reading of your own and not just go around thinking you know based on modern times and comparing families with one another and quoting Ivy. As said, the Organized Crime and political corruption in Chicago aspect is too deep rooted to just go away. You still have somewhat recent incidents of political connections coming up in Outfit related indictments. And as it's said in "Organized Crime in Chicago: Beyond The Mafia", the Outfit never "made" a large number of guys to begin with, compared to other families, yet they always had loyal associates who were waist deep in rackets, and in most cases weren't even Italian, despite this they were and still are a verified LCN family. I consider Chicago as it's stand alone mob organization, you can't compare them to the others because they simply aren't comparable..As far as labor involvement goes, about a year ago, many web pages of various Chicago locals were brought up, and the presidents and vps and execs of those labor unions were recognizable last names with prior cases of Organized Crime involvement.

And I've rarely seen cases of dirty cops or law enforcement aiding mob-connected guys in NY in the past decade like you have with Chicago. But thats just my personal observation.

I dont think of The Outfit on much of a decline so to speak, but moreso of them adapting with the times and their environment.

Well said Sinatra. BillyBrizzi Ive got all three Family Secrets books and they have some information all the way up to the indictment. Fred Pascente wrote a book before he died last year, he was a police associate that grew up with Spilotro and Lombardo. I havent read it yet but have heard it was good. Don Herion wrote a book also it has some good stuff.

Jeezus H.

Ain't no fanboys like Chicago fanboys.



@Ivy: don't waste anymore time. People who want to believe something aren't open to changing their minds, listening or accepting facts.

Fanboys coming from a guy who has damn near 2000 post in under 3 years. Lol. You need to look in a mirror pal.

You're right, it is a waste of time. I should know this more than anyone, having dealt with Chicago posters for so many years. It's hard to discuss a subject that many of them approach on an almost emotional level. Like anything less than what they think the Outfit to be is a personal insult.

It's tough because Chicago is still an active, viable family with a hierarchy. It's not like Detroit where, without Scott, 99% of the debates probably wouldn't even come up. But people have a hard time differentiating the Outfit from years ago to today. And much of what their idea of the Outfit is today is built more on smoke than substance.

But that smoke is where many of the Outfit champions are most comfortable. Lots of names. Lots of rumors. Lots of inuendo. Lots of cliches. It makes it easier to paint this portrait of the Outfit as an almost omnipresent force throughout Chicago. And others love the idea of that and eat it up.

@ Sonny



I DISTINCTLY recall in a thread about philly, around New Years, someone said they had pics of Joey Merlino, at a party, and kinda like a schoolgirl (no offense) you were like " Can you post?"


PLEASE NEVER CALL ANYONE FANBOY AGAIN LOL

@ Ivey

I understand how you wanna keep the boards from devolving into a mess of lies, and misinformation, I get that.


But sometimes it appears to be something else, I'm not privy to the past arguments on here, but it does seem like it made you a little biased when discussing the Midwest, case in point;


Forget modern day Detroit, you argued with me that they COULDNT HAVE been a power in the 40s and 50s, which I found utterly bizarre, more so cause your only refutation was that Detroit wasn't New York.


Same deal in a thread about loan sharks with Todoped, Buccieri, in your estimation could not have been a bigger loan shark than a NY guy, cause it's Chicago and not NY. And then you ignore people's analysis of available data, like everyone is retarded but you, that's annoying.

When I first came on here, I tried to tell you guys about a nephew of Gus Alex I know, young guy, into a lot of shit. You flat out basically called me a liar, just fuckin disrespectful.


I saw a similar thing happen in a thread with PB. They were talking about the Bronx, a guy call OnDaFly came in, and right away, someone, (not from the fuckin Bronx clearly) tries to call the guy out, until PB vouched for him, then by the end of the thread, they were the only ones talking and everyone is all "Wow", I'm reading it like, what the fuck is this? Lol

So, I get you, I do. But like I said before, just be wary of maintaining double standards... But keep being you, your research is unimpeachable...

so the outfit still having ties to ohara airport doesn't mean shit to u?

even though it's the busiest airport in the country in the 3rd largest city

u can't even name the suburbs they operate in but you know exactly what they're doing

it ain't the 40s-70s in chicago nor ny (where 5 families fight for the same dollar)

It's not a bias against the Midwest and it's typically only posters from Midwest cities that take it as such because, like I said, it becomes almost personal to them.

Most of the debates deal more with the current status of things than the distant past. And, relatively speaking, there's not much mob presence in the Midwest to speak of. Thats just a fact.



I don't believe I ever said Detroit wasn't a power. The debate was how much of a power they were in the drug trade and if they ever supplied the NY families at times. If memory serves, I think you showed that they did but I maintained that the NY families were bigger operators down through the years.




I don't have a hard time believing Buccieri was a bigger loanshark than some NY guys. I don't believe he was the biggest in the country. And I believe the biggest loanshark would, in all probability, be found in NY for which should be obvious reasons. It's easier to believe a guy like Frank Tieri would be bigger than anyone from outside NY. I'm not from NY, Chicago, or any other city with a mob family so I don't have a dog in this fight or the temptation like some do to defend their hometown crime family like one would a sports team.



You'll have to refresh my memory on that one.

You obviously have a dog in the fight, even a blind man could see that. But who cares Im happy today, we had a making ceremony yesterday, and it was another son. So ill give you a pass today.

My only dog is getting the facts right. Not being from NY or the east coast, it's not like I get bragging rights when it comes to the "dick measuring" between families west often see on these forums.

Congratulations!!!

But the making ceremony was probably some 9 months ago ;-)

Thanks Billy. Ivy it is obvious you have a dog in the fight, and no you don't have to live somewhere to have that dog in the fight. If that was true 80%-90% of everyone on these boards wouldn't be on here. If your only dog is the facts start posting them. Saying something with no proof is not fact. I've seen people over the years post facts with stuff to back it up to you. You always just give some nonchalant comment like Ad-hoc venture or ignore it and quote some bullshit someone else says. Cool but that's not credibility. I don't ignore facts. New York has a lot of made men. We know that, you are the one missing the point. No one here is trying to say the Outfit is running Vegas or KC or anything but Chicago. If you don't think they still have quite a bit of power there, then your the one built on smoke more than substance.

CabriniGreen


IvyLeague


IvyLeague


What obvious reason? Oh I remember you have a dog in the fight. That was long enough ago it could have been someone from LA, and if available data showed it you still would have said "And I believe the biggest loanshark would, in all probability, be found in NY for which should be obvious reasons."

No proof. Lol.

I don't think there's a single poster on any of the forums who's presented more facts backed with evidence than I have. If you've been on the boards for a significant amount of time you would know this. Maybe you're just playing stupid. There was a time when I would spend a good chunk of my time laying it all out in one or more posts. Or for several pages if the debate went on long enough. But, as SonnyBlackstein and I were talking about, it's almost always a waste of time. Especially when it comes to many Chicago posters. You guys have this image of the Outfit that you simply want to hang onto and there's really no changing your mind.

And sorry to break it to you but you have yet to show me any link that I haven't seen before. Ive seen many of these similar links from other Chicago posters or found them myself. You are all very quick to rush to a conclusion about what they mean, and it's usually that the Outfit is still a thriving, omnipresent, powerhouse in Chicago. You guys take 1 + 1 +1 and get 10.



The Genovese family has always been said to have the biggest gambling and loansharking operations. Typically, when a family has the biggest operation of something in NY, that also means the country. Generally speaking, the NY families have just always been bigger operators. If you can't acknowledge that, its because you don't want to. The NYPD considered Tieri the biggest loanshark in the nation. Neither I nor anyone else has a reason to doubt this unless they see it all as some dick measuring contest and they want their hometown crime family to be the big dog. Believe what you want. It's obvious this is a personal matter to you. And there's no reasoning with people like that. It took me a long time to realize and accept this fact.

Im sure you think that highly of yourself. You must be playing stupid always missing the point, or maybe u just are. Saying shit like the NYPD considered him the biggest loanshark in the nation. It might mean something if you said the FBI said it. It might mean more if you back it up. Im sure you have seen all those links, all ad-hoc. There are quiet a few more but there will just be more ad-hoc and residual comments. You keep talking about dick measuring and people are gonna start getting the wrong idea about you or maybe the right idea because there is no doubt that you are running around with a yard stick begging to measure them. Lol.

Irony.


More irony.

Im done with you. Ill see you again in a future Outfit thread. Im sure of that.

Irony is you or Ivy for that matter calling anyone a fanboy. There is some perspective for you. You never bring anything to the conversation. Period. Troll bait is all you are.

@ Ivey

See this is what I mean Ivey, I actually DID have reason to doubt Tieri as the biggest loan shark, and gave you all kind of reasons why, but it was, no you are stupid, and wrong. And the thing was, my choice was Salerno, ( or Catena) not a Midwest guy, who was said to have 80 million on the street, based of 20 years of running Harlem, the big money crews. How would Tieri have 90 million on the street in Brooklyn? Why wasn't he higher on the Forbes list? He would have to dominate there, but how could he when there are three other families based there? How many capos is that? 20? 25?And the Genovese base is Manhattan? That to me seemed off, not some damn fanboy obsession, but by that point it was like you made up your mind...
I posted a link naming Jiggs Forlano as the top shark in NY, and referenced his Connection to Ruby Stein, another huge shark. Jigs operated in Brooklyn, Colombo territory. So where was Funzis status when Jiggs was tops? I mentioned the part in the Demeo book, where Tieri wanted to know what happened to Ruby Steins book, that was stolen by the Westies. So it was pretty clear, anyone associated with this Stein, benefited from HIM being a huge shark, Tieri probably "inherited" the guy somehow after Forlano died. I mean, can you explain that? I would love to hear that, not some bullshit about how I'm a fanboy lol...


On the Gus Alex nephew thing, when you guys say, there aren't that many young guys, there is no narcotics involvement, you gotta understand, I don't know HOW MANY there are, but you are wrong there, point blank period, I know cause I KNOW AT LEAST ONE LOL, and this guy, like I tried to tell you before, operates like a NY guy, with shit all over the place. Now my point was where there was smoke, there is probably fire, if there is one, there might be more, don't tell me it's impossible, that's ridiculous..



Also, Chicago is as corrupt as Wall Street is greedy, the mob may not control it, but it is an entity unto itself, it's never going away. You guys forget, the Mayor of NY ran Costello out, and Dewey put the biggest boss there in jail for 50 years. AT A TIME WHEN THEY WERE POWERFUL AS HELL. Cermak tried the mob, and got WACKED OUT, if you don't think that had some lasting effect on the succeeding generation of politicians, well.....




This is what I meant by you guys don't get how corrupt it is here, but you may have a point in that it's hard to tell if it's the mob, or just ingrained dynastic nepotism in say for example, the unions, but that's what I mean, the lines are blurred.




It's why I get so annoyed by threads like the "Are the rizzutos Lcn?" If you were to look at the Partinico faction from Detroit, you would see that they set up the transatlantic drug trafficking mafia family blueprint that is the cutting edge of organized crime today. That Bonnano tried to emulate and Gambino dismantled and then copied for himself. Don't tell me it's not, you yourself posted an article about the ndrangheta families controlling Australia recently. If you looked at history, the present wouldn't even be confusing at all, you'd say, ooh, it's one of THOSE families, not bogged down by charts and numbers.
And THATS why it annoyed me the most Ivey, cause it's a big part of MAFIA HISTORY, like it's interesting, but you made up your mind that it isn't, without even looking at it.

And Ivey, I honestly think YOU don't understand how big NY is. Like I think you think a restaurant in NY will absolute beat one in say, Iowa. But you don't take into account the nature of NY. The density, the competition, the cost, of doing business and staying competitive. Liscenses, all that shit. You take a 5 star restaurant in NY, it's a dime a dozen, it could be outta business within a year. You put the same restaurant somewhere much smaller, it might be the most happenin, chic thing in the city, and make more money. I was reading an article about carting in NY, and how some big carters said collecting trash in NY was more expensive than anticipated, ( even though it clearly has like, the most trash, it COST MORE TO PICK IT UP)they are now moving into recycling and turning trash into energy. You check out that show Billions? There is a cute scene where they talk about a guy has a food cart and his brother undercuts him by selling the same food at 50 cents cheaper, RIGHT NEXT TO HIM, THATS BUSINESS IN NEW YORK FOR YOU.... Like I have a friend, she lives in Hanoi now, teaching English, she moved to NY thinking it was going to fulfill her or some shit, it CRUSHED HER, she wasn't prepared for the intensity of it. Her sister graduated from like Yale law or some shit, she had to move back in with her parents cause the comp was too intense for jobs.... Same deal here in the Chi, Jimmy Johns moved to like Florida or some shit cause the City, though a bigger market, cost too much more to operate in...



Again, I'm not knocking your research, more like your need to be the smartest guy in the room at all times, your need to win the argument.

About time someone said it...

These arguments never end because they are about gangsters and their net worth. Forbes list? These guys are GANGSTERS they don't file tax returns for loansharking income. These arguments are fucking nonsense.

Comparing numbers seems pretty meaningless if there historically is another standard for membership in Chicago, a theory which for example is supported by "Organized crime in Chicago" by Lombardo. According to this theory only key guys are made whereas the others are referered to as "outfit guys".

Scarpelli described himself as an "outfit guy", not a made guy. He would by Ny standards be called an Associate.

Of course Schweis was not made, being german, he was heavy but not italian like Jimmy Burke in Ny, but italians like Scarpelli (guys deeply involved in key crews and involved in major hits ) who were not made? They would probably have been made in Ny.

Ivy


First you think your more credible than the Detroit FBI office on the state of the LCN there and now you think the nypd is an authority to decide who is the biggest loan shark in THE NATION. They can't even investigate outside of New York for Christ sake. Personally I think Carlo Gambino was the biggest , remember he loan 1.2 million to joe Colombo. If not him than I would say Anthony fat tony Salerno,or Joey auippa

Scarpelli was made.

First, I'm not sure why you're referencing that Forbes list, which wasn't really based on anything substantive. If you look at that list, they tried to include at least someone from just about every family rather than who actually was the wealthiest, most powerful, etc.

Second, I'm not aware of any in depth analysis or report on the top loanshark in the country that could be a definitive answer for us. I do know that Tieri was identified as such by the NYPD at one point. I have also seen Forlano identified as such. The way I see it, it's safest to give the benefit of the doubt to a NY guy. And within that sphere, probably a Genovese guy. Why? Not because I'm biased but because of what we know about the relative size of mob operations in both NY and the country. I'm fact, any well informed, objective observer should require quite a bit of convincing evidence to think it wouldn't be someone from NY.



Once again, I don't recall much about this Gus Alex thing you keep bringing up. Either way, it seems largely immaterial to the present discussion because you're point is anecdotal and about one guy. I'm talking about general trends here and, generally speaking, the Outfit has relatively little involvement in narcotics. Anyone can see that in the Outfit cases over the past 15 years.




The problem is you and others talk about the Chicago Outfit and Chicago corruption like they're synonymous. They're not. Linked at times, yes, but not the same thing. Chicago always having some level of corruption doesn't mean the Outfit is never going away. Look at recent trends. Back in 1997, the Outfit was said to have approximately 70 members. Nearly 20 years later, it's not even half that. Even if one wants to include associates in the mix, because Chicago is "so different" from the other families, the total size is still only comparable to the other handful of small families left outside NY. You guys turn a blind eye to the #1 killer of mob families - attrition. Not the feds. Not rats. Attrition. That's why numbers DO matter. As I pointed out before, Louisiana has always had a lot of corruption too. But attrition still finished off the Marcello family. Yes, the Outfit is a bigger organization than his was but the same still applies. Somebody would willfully have to turn a blind eye not to see it.



While Im not saying there isnt competition, I do think in order to make your point you and others overstate this thing about competition between the NY families. The greater NY metro area has had 5 families for a century or so precisely because it CAN accommodate those families. The NY families have generally worked together and there's been enough for everyone. And actually, now more than ever, I'd argue that them all being in the same area is as much a help to them as anything. They have intersecting interests and are able to pool their resources at times. This presents a much bigger, more daunting task for law enforcement than a single, small family out on its own island, so to speak.

You guys keep going back to the Outfit having Chicago all to itself. Well it's not just about how big and rich a territory is but also a family's ability to exploit that territory. It's why, similar to my New Orleans comparison, I brought up LA. The few members still living there have that huge city mostly to themselves, in terms of the LCN, but it doesn't really benefit them all that much. Once again, while the Outfit is obviously much bigger operation, the same applies.
Chicago could arguably be called the most corrupt city in the US. It doesn't change the fact that the Outfit has vastly decreased in both its size and it's scope of operations.

Did Chicago ever take any milwaukee guys when that family tanked?

Not to my knowledge, although the remaining guys may have fallen under the Outfit's thumb in some form or fashion.

I don't think this will answer your question but a lot of people haven't considered Milwaukee since Milwaukee Phil. Just like others feel the Outfit is done or tanked or whatever.

No fight here - just kinda stating what many have said in various threads the last couple of years.

@ivyleague

united service companies has a 99.4 million dollar contract to clean ohare airport

paul fosco is a vice president of the company

fosco got convicted of racketeering in the same trial that tony accardo was acquitted

if you don't see the mob connection there then you just don't want to see it

Would The Outfit have any contact with NY these days?

I know they don't have to business wise, because since they cleaned up the Teamsters and the other national unions, there is no need for them to meet, but don't they have to meet to discuss LCN rules and regulations. Or doesn't the Outfit consider themselves Cosa Nostra? I know from reading books about NY/Jersey/Philly mobsters that they constantly refer to themselves as Cosa Nostra and from reading about Chicago and watching docs I don't get that feeling..

During the Family Secrets trial Frank Calabrese Snr was taped lambasting Shorty LaMantia for the way he introduced someone to a New York mobster in prison - he referred to them as 'a friend of ours' when LaMantia was not a made guy. Calabrese Snr was not happy and made LaMantia fully aware of it.

Apparently there were also tapes made during the investigation of Lombardo bemoaning that New York mobsters had made inroads in some of the gambling rackets in Chicago, don't know if it got aired.

When Frankie Schweihs was convicted of extortion in the early 90s he was recorded boasting that no-one from New York dared mess with anyone in Chicago. The tapes were then replayed during initial stages of the Family Secrets trial. He was collecting payments from Red Wemette, adult book store owner and FBI informant, at the time.

Lombardo saying that stuff about one New York guy having a strip club to Patrick Spilotro was him trying to make Pat believe he wasn't still involved in the Outfit. The Outfit through Rick Rizzolo had the Crazy Horse in Vegas, and Faraci who is a member of the Bonnanos', "worked" there. It is also said that while the Clown was in prison in the 80's his best friend was a New York crime boss. New York doesn't go into Chicago without asking, and Chicago doesn't go into New York without asking, it's as simple as that. There is also at least one family connection as John "Pudgy" Matassa is the brother in-law of Daniel Pagano of the Genovese family.

He said getting a so-called made member to talk was a key breakthrough because Chicago "has been the toughest nut to crack of all the major cities in the United States with LCN (mob) families."

-US ATTORNEY GREG SHAPIRO,2009

Calabrese and LaMantia were actually in prison with Ray Patriarca Junior and Sonny Mercurio and guys from Providence (per Frank Jr.). Personally, I think LaMantia was probably made and Calabrese was just bullshitting to Frank Jr.

I think LaMantia was probably made also. I think Frank Sr. was just pissed cause he didn't want them to know he was made.

I used to think the same but I haven't seen any other confirmation of LaMantia being made. Plus it doesn't make sense why Frank would get so pissed at Shorty.

I remember in Las Vegas in 1979, one of my Friends introduced me to a Guy in the Casino as a Friend of Ours and he promptly admonished the Guy (after a little discussion) and I was introduced as a Friend of Mine.

Was that before or after you fucked Gerri Rosenthal?

But what I really want to know is if the Chicago Outfit guys refer to themselves as (La) Cosa Nostra like the NY guys do? I hope some Chicago experts can answer this question for me.

After reading books about the Outfit and looking at some transcripts of different tapes, it seems that they don't refer to themselves as LCN..

That was a good one

Actually the only Girlfriend of a Made Guy I dated was after the Made Guy Died and it was three years later after his death. I still got permission from the Committee...

The only really interesting question about Chicago at this point is when the last 10 or so hardcore gangsters still around look at each other and say, "Well, this is stupid," and call it a day. It's almost impossible to imagine there is even a shell left in 10 years that even the biggest fan would be able to make an argument for You're talking about a 95 percent decomposed corpse at this point.

Let alone Detroit.

Trying to work out if you're just an idiot or have been drinking.

There is somewhere on this forum a long debate about IDing all the known made members of the Outfit in correspondence with the last FBI estimate of made members. I believe we reached something approaching consensus between the more reasonable posters.

Go through the list and discount everyone in jail, dead, or obviously too old to be doing anything but pounding Ensure, and tell me what number you get.