Are the Rizzuto's LCN?

Can someone clear this up, do they actually have an LCN structure.....boss, underboss, consig, capo's etc or do they just not give shit

Their hierarchy is still unclear, but some evidence suggests that they are more informal than LCN. They may not even have an induction ceremony, and supposedly they make non-Italians. They were undoubtedly LCN in their roots, but it's hard to say how much of that still exists this long into Rizzuto control.

Other factions may be more traditional, but I really don't know.

Other than Fernandez bragging about it on the phone, I'm not sure there was any evidence he, Desjardins, or any other non-Italian was actually made.

That's why I said supposedly, but it's worth pointing out as a possible difference.

I would say they are more like The Outfit in terms of non Sicilians being in power. I don't think they made any non Italian though. Yes Joe Bravo and Raynald were high up in the family, but I don't believe they were made.

Yes I would say they are like the Outfit, which had non-Italians like Guzik, Patrick, Hump, Schweihs, and Alex who were just as powerful as most of their crew bosses. It was also said that the Outfit didn't have a traditional LCN structure. They didn't have a making ceremony until Aiuppa.

In the simple sense, yes. Their a Mafia family. However, they don't follow typical LCN rules or protocol.

So since Aiuppa died were there no more making ceremonies??

Yes I think that the Rizzutos are more informal and so Joe Bravo thinked that was made. The power of Nick sr and vito was to make strong alliance with everithing Irish,bikers Even black gangs. So when vito go away and Nick jr was killed everithing said "fuck the italians. Now we rules on the streets " and so began the war.

Half a cosa nostra then......

More a mafia dinasty where the power go to father Nick sr to the son vito and so on ( leonardo "the italian tom Hagen" is the boss), the old men near the boss replay the capos and Even non Italians have power like informal capos.For some people the fact that rizzuto "made" non Italian was his ruin.

Still crazy the father got whacked at like 90 ytd old at his dinner table that's some real personal shit it had to be the kid or grandkids of that guy violi that the rizzutto killed back in the day even killed him like the brother. Sniper eating supper.

They would probably be considered LCN, but I'm not sure if they ever called it that. Just "friends" who got together and made money by organizing illegal rackets. They did have a leader and crew bosses, but I'm not sure if they ever had that traditional boss, underboss, consigliere structure. I don't think that ever mattered to them. It was about making money. The media loves to use those fancy titles.

Ralph I think that Nick sr and vito if don't never had the title of boss however the other criminals know that they was the chiefs of italians and must make deal with them. Maybe there are factions that rules specific rackets. The core business was the coke so Nick sr and vito are the chief and what they said was the orders.

You're probably correct. People tend to follow those who possess leadership abilities and control the money. It probably helped that Vito was a soldier with the Bonannos. Vito and Nick had a lot of things going for them.

For this fact I think that after the banana war in the 60s Nick sr managed to get indipendent from ny and for this reasons his family wasn't too big maybe 50 or maybe less more but mantenead a tie with bonannos until massimo ordered ro kill sciandra in 1999.

Really don't know what else you'd call them. Seems pretty clear they are LCN to me.

To me as well.

I think what you guys are seeing and describing are the after effects of an organization that has been entrenched in narcotics trafficking for decades. Over time what became most important to the organization was narcotics supply, transportation, and distribution, and the laundering and reinvestment of those funds.
Giuseppe Settacasi was boss of the Agrigento mafia, he was partners with Luciano. Lucky was concerned with business, not really all the ritualistic symbolism and militaristic territorial control. Consider that influence he must have had on the succeeding generation of Mafiosi from there. Think about Luciano doing business with Jewish gangsters, guys like Owney Madden, Irish and Sottish whiskey merchants, Cuban racketeers in the Caribbean, Bumpy Johnson, French Corsicans. Then look at Vito with Wooley the street gang boss, Boucher the biker gang boss, French Canadian gangsters, Spanish gangsters, Irish West End mob, Asian Big Circle boys, Lebanese hashish merchants, Colombian and Cuban cocaine suppliers, Swiss bankers. Your ability to procure narcotics, transport narcotics, distribute narcotics, these things start to take precedence over where you were born in Sicily, or how many made men you have under you.
Drugs change everything; They don't recognize established hierarchies or whatever specialized expertise you might have like experience or whatever. Where you normally have the boss, underboss and consigliere, it becomes, the guy with the connect, the guy with the distribution, and the guy that can put both of em together, these become the guys calling the shots. These "Sollozos" wield incredible influence in families ba cause narcotics can actually support an entire family. "I've got 20 years experience in labor racketeering", " Well, I got 50 keys, we'll make 25 million", see what I mean? It's like all that shit goes out the window.

Look at this mafia heroin ring;

At the end of August, or early September 1956, Cantellops attended a meeting at the home of Rocco Mazzie, at 2332 Seymour Avenue in the Bronx, where plans were made for extending the distribution of narcotics.

Earlier, the same evening Cantellops drove to the same German restaurant on East 86th Street with Joe Evola, Ormento, Carmine Galante and Andimo Pappadio, a capo in the Luchese family, and a man close to John Ormento and Genovese.

Galante was with the Bonanno family, along with Evola; Ormento, and Pappadio were with the Luchese’s, and Mazzie was tied into the crime family known to-day as the Gambino family, run then, by Albert Anastasia.
Couple things, notice how they overlook the Puerto Rican Cantellops, because of his perceived ability to open up a distribution center in the Bronx, he woulda been like "Carlito Brigante" basically. Also notice how the traditional family lines and hierarchies are blurred. Imagine a beef happens, what boss decides what? Is it going to be the family boss, or the guy controlling the drugs, or drug territory calling the shots? Here you have soldiers, capos, under bosses, it's like they are part of a separate organization, within the mafia. That why Carlo felt compelled to take down ALL these guys...

Here is an excerpt from The Sixth Family, illustrating what I mean....
https://books.google.com/books?id=0ZygQJ...ers&f=false
It's why Nick Rizzuto COULDNT take orders from Violi. Besides the Sicilian, Calabrian divide, he has his own connect, his own contacts to get the product in the states, his own crew to move it, and his own laundry service. He must have been like, " What the fuck do I even need the guy for, to take a cut off the top, cause what, he's Boss?" Fuck that!!
It's what got George from Canada killed. This " Sollozo" type, because he was controlling the flow of drugs into New York, started to feel like he could tell the boss things about running the family, and clearly he thought that because he was such a valuable earner, was untouchable. Also, as,it states in the Sixth family, he probably didn't see himself as a Bonnano soldier, more like Vito's representative in New York.
Here is another excerpt, from Gommorah, on another Italian crime family that operates more like a cartel than a traditional Costa Nostra clan, also it shows that all these organizations require is loyalty, and this is provided by family, also shows how things like experience, prestige, and age are impediments to the operation..
“The sums Di Lauro’s managers turned over were still astronomical, but getting progressively smaller. Over the long term this sort of practice would strengthen some and weaken others, and eventually—as soon as a group gathered enough organizational and military force—they’d give Paolo Di Lauro the shove. Not just some stiff competition, but the big shove, the one you don’t get up from, a shove with lead in it. So Cosimo ordered everyone be put on salary. He wanted them all to depend on him. The decision ran counter to his father’s ways, but it was necessary to protect his business, his authority, his family. No more loose ties, with everyone free to decide how much to invest, what type and quality of drugs to put on the market. No more liberty and autonomy within a multilevel corporation. Salaried employees. Some were saying 50,000 euros a month. An extraordinary amount, but a salary nevertheless. A subordinate role. The end of the entrepreneurial dream, replaced by a manager’s job. And the administrative revolution didn’t end there. Informants testify that Cosimo also imposed a generational turnover. Immediate rejuvenation”
“management, so no executives over thirty. The market doesn’t make concessions for the appreciation of human assets. It doesn’t make concessions for anything. You have to hustle to win. Every bond, be it affection, law, rights, love, emotion, or religion, is a concession to the competition, a stumbling block to success. There’s room for all that, but economic victory and control come first. Old bosses used to be listened to out of respect, even when they proposed outdated ideas or gave ineffective orders; their decisions counted precisely because of their age. And age was what posed the biggest threat to the leadership of Paolo Di Lauro’s offspring.
So now they on the same level; no appealing to a mythical past, previous experience, or respect owed. Everyone had to get by on the strength of his proposals, management abilities, or charisma.”
So basically, the only "made". Guys that seem to matter, are the blood relations, and they have been acting like a cartel for so long, that the organization both in structure and values, reflects this reality, any thoughts?

I would say that's a pretty spot-on analysis Cabrini..

Cabrini Green has just smashed it there.....24 caret gold explanation.

Yeah except it would obviously be possible for Rizzuto to have a non-Italian in a high level position without bucking tradition and actually making him. A guy's made status is only valuable if it's recognized. It doesn't matter how powerful Rizzuto was. Other mafiosi would be under no obligation to recognize a non-Italian being made.

Juan Fernandez told other made guys in Sicily that both he and Raynald Desjardins were formally made by Rizzuto. In Fernandez' case, he claimed that that gave him added recognition and entitled other Sicilian Mafiosi to do business with him, which they did. They voiced surprise and then went on to deal with the guy until he was killed. And he wasn't killed for that claim either, he was killed for that claim, while feigning loyalty to Rizzuto but also dealing with his enemies and avoiding him when called upon.

I hear ya, just understand that the reverse is true as well, ask Montagna after his beef with the Frenchman.....

Also Ivey, I would counter that a made guy is only valuable if he's bringing something to the table;
It's never really been, we've got a multi-million dollar operation, let's make this guy and give it to him, it's he's got a million dollar operation, let's make him, so we can take a piece.
It's like Sinatra said, Joe Bravo wasn't hit because he wanted a seat at the table, he was hit cause Rizzuto ordered it.
Difference between him and the Frenchman, is he didn't step outside of Montreal, that was a mistake.
I would also say it's an example of the dynamics I outlined above, Sinatra stated that the Sicilians continued to business with him, I'm not surprised at all, if you understand the state of Cosa Nostra at this time. If I'm not mistaken, this is a period of decline for the Sicilian mafia. This is the period where they are falling over themselves to business with Frank Cali, where their dominant position in the drug trade has been weakened by the crackdowns as a result of the 80s bombings, but also their inability to adapt to the cocaine market, which the Calabrians and Napels gangsters beat them to. This is a Sicilian mafia that is having trouble with protection money, which was always their bread and butter, along with the citrus market, land estates, and construction and such....
So it could very well be that they would have, maybe even WANTED t ack Joe Bravo, but they would sacrificing a steady drug supply, at a time when they really needed it.
It's very possible Joe Bravo was hit because he was making TOO many inroads in Sicily.
I'm really am of the opinion that they don't really have making ceremonies, they have MARRIAGES. Sixth family talk about the Commisos, Manno, Rizzuto, LoPresti, Scascia, CAruana-[BadWord], if your name isn't one of these family ties, you better have a drug connect, control a market, or something useful to these people...

While I'm aware of the decline of the Sicilian Mafia in recent times, I don't think that would cause them to throw all rules and tradition out the window and recognize a non-Italian as being made. Nor would that even be necessary to do business with him.

If it were true, it would be a landmark first. Even the American mob, with its much greater decline and shrinking membership, has never made a guy with no Italian blood. The only possibility for a precedent is the Scottish guy who may have been made into the Camorra. But, in addition to the Camorra having always been more porous and looser with the rules, I'm not sure that was ever 100% verified.

But out of nowhere, and without any need to do so, Vito Rizzuto is going to take it upon himself to make a non-Italian? Especially considering how insular and clannish the Rizzutos and their inner circle were said to be? C'mon.

Bottom line, I'd have to see more proof than Fernandez talking on the phone to believe it.

Do you think the Ndrangheta can settle in the United States or the American mafia is not there or is not there, and in a near future compete with American Mafia families, or there are the install?

Again, you put way too much emphasis on made guys. You gotta understand Ivey, Rizzuto probably "made" these guys, as like a placating gesture, to let them think they were on the same level, but trust, no one is on the same level as the blood relations. I see these guys being made like a " Joe Watts" or "Jimmy Burke.
Not really made, but treated like made guys, but only within their family. I get the impression that if these two guys were in Montreal, they would be indistinguishable from a powerful Italian mafia capo. But they would have to recognize the geographic limitations, they could act like that in Montreal,nowhere else. It's like the gang boss Wooley going into an Italian Montreal neighborhood and expecting to be treated like a member.
And again, I don't think they recognized him as a made guy, more like they just overlooked it for the sake of business, kinda like they did with the Inzirillos, these guys needed CONNECTS Ivey, more than they need a few more made guys.
Like Ivey, I used to think all Costa Nostra is Sicilian right? Well here is ANOTHER family bound by blood, operating like a cartel, I was shocked when I first read about em...shows the power of drugs on the power structure....
“The Nuvolettas are the only family outside Sicily that sits in the cupola, the high command of Cosa Nostra. Not simply allies or affiliates, they are one of the most powerful groups in the bosom of the Mafia, with structural ties to the Corleones. So powerful—according to pentito Giovanni Brusca—that when in the late 1990s the Sicilians decided to plant bombs all over Italy, they asked the Marano clan for advice and cooperation. The Nuvolettas thought the idea was crazy, a strategy that had more to do with political favors than military results. They refused to participate in the attacks or provide logistical support, a refusal expressed without any hint of reprisal. Totò Riina personally implored the boss Angelo Nuvoletta to corrupt the judges in his first mass trial, but here too the Marano clan refused to help the military wing of the Corleone family. During the feuds within La Nuova Famiglia, after their victory over Cutolo, the Nuvolettas sent for Giovanni Brusca, the boss of San Giovanni Jato and the murderer of Judge Giovanni Falcone.* They wanted Brusca to eliminate five people in Campania and dissolve two of them in acid. They called him the way you would call a plumber”

Excerpt From: Roberto Saviano & Virginia Jewiss. “Gomorrah.” Picador, 2007. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/rlf9w.l
You gotta remember, this is all about control, if it makes these guys easier to control by letting them think they are made, ehhhhh?

Actually, much better example, compare Fernandez and the Frenchman to like Apples McIntosh, I think that's his name? Carmine Persicos bodyguard.
I've heard it said that he woulda been made in a minute if he were Italian, but it didn't stop Carmine from treating him like a high-level guy. I'm thinking the relationship was similar to that one...

That's actually why I found the New York arrest so interesting, for decades they operated out of Montreal, but they felt compelled to set up an outpost in New York.
It's,why I asked a while back, are they losing power? Do they still maintain their position as prime narcotics importers with the calabrians and Mexicans being what they are?
I think Vito was the reason it held together like it did, and like someone said above,after he went away, everyone started to calculate where their loyalty and interest lie...
Also Ivey understand, I agree on Fernandez, like I said I think he was just crazy. I don't think Dejardins woulda showed up in Sicily acting like a made guy. Fuck he probably can't even do that in Corsica lol....
But I do think Vito placated them with that, I don't think he ever expected the guy to go to Sicily. Like I could see Vito having to hit him, to save face from having "made" a Spaniard, it couldn't really have helped his rep at a time when he was at war, and trying Marshall his forces, and identify all his enemies.

Very interesting!.....Where did you read about this?
It has me wondering now that the reason Michael Pappadio was killed and why he was so afraid to turn over his books to Amuso.....I read that Michael inherited all of Andiamo's business dealings once he was whacked and I don't doubt that included any drug related business.......Michael was a very rich man and if he was involved with drugs, he was a dead man anyway, which maybe explained his defiance and death wish or maybe he went back on the job to gather as much money as possible, before he planned on running away....Either way, he had to be smart enough to know that he could not defy the boss and live.

Nobody is denying that high level associates can have a lot of influence. Sometimes even more than some made guys if they are close enough to the boss or in a key money making position. But technically speaking, they are still associates. I see no convincing evidence that Fernandez was more than that. In other words, I don't believe he went through any kind of formal making ritual ie was seen in the same way as actual made members who had.

As to your other point, I've said before that it appears most of the drugs the Rizzutos smuggled went into and were distributed within Canada. A smaller portion went south across the border to NY. Even at the Rizzutos peak they were never the main supply of drugs to NY. Not even close. And it's been 30+ years since the American mob was.

We have less evidence (read: none) that he wasn't made -- But we DO know Fernandez claimed to be made and that he was doing business in Sicily. I understand and partially agree with the sentiment of your posts, but you are obstinately dismissing Fernandez out of hand simply because it does not fit into your preferred narrative and no other reason. We don't even know if they have a making ceremony at all, so it's kind of a moot point.

I'm not saying (and never will unless more evidence comes to light) that he was made with 100% certainty, but I am not willing to dismiss it unless there is ample reason to do so. We should all be skeptical and we certainly should not take Fernandez at his word, but for the time being we have no contradicting perspectives to challenge it with. Hopefully we will soon and I will gladly eat my own words if it ever comes to light that Fernandez was full of shit... because i don't care if he was or wasn't, I have no vested interest. I'd just like to know the truth.

My gut feeling is that there aren't any "real" members outside of those with blood ties as others have expressed before. That really seems to be the case with them. They'll let you in, they may even call you a member, but you'll never be in the inner circle unless you have a more formal tie.

As to what Cabrini said. That's part of the mystery though, Desjardins may not have been able to go to Sicily and pretend to be a made guy, but Fernandez sure did. There's no evidence to support Vito having him killed to save face for making a spaniard, or any other reason. Fact is, Fernandez dealt with Carbone & Scaduto, those were his main guys in Sicily, both of those guys, worked with Fernandez and they knew of him because of his days back in Montreal. Carbone, I believe, turned rat and then testified and claimed that he always thought Fernandez was more talk. But that didn't encourage him to step up to Fernandez and dispute his "made" status. While in Sicily, Rizzuto's lawyer was in contact with Carbone & Scaduto, he wanted Fernandez to visit with him in the DR. When Carbone delivered the message it was always "The boss, you have to go see the priest..." Fernandez would then call a Canadian contact and complain about it. He blew off Rizzuto twice, that's why he was killed.


And I will say this, I believe the Sicilians only dealt with Fernandez because of his ability to earn. He was trying to import prescription drugs and marijuana into Sicily. The prescription drugs were confiscated before they ever got to Bagheria, and it pissed guys off because Fernandez promised them this shipment would go through. HE turned to marijuana and the property he and the other guy were killed on, was in the process of being turned into a cultivation farm. Had Rizzuto not made the decision to have him killed when he did, had he stayed in Sicily, I think Fernandez would've been killed anyway, because he wasn't coming through on his business promises.

Are you kidding me? We have 100+ years of precedent. That's a HUGE reason to doubt the validity of Fernandez' claims. It's not my "preferred narrative." It's simple fact and history. You say you have "no vested interest" but some of you guys seem to be arguing pretty hard for the possibility, despite there being nothing to support it out of Fernandez' claim. But hey, believe what you want.

I don't think they do the saint burning gear to be fair....just a guess.....has anyone EVER been confirmed as a made member of the rizzuto LCN....Gone through the ritual etc....its just a bunch of italians selling gear as far as I'm concerned

But we already know the Rizzutos are not exactly traditional. How much of that precedent applies? The only right answer is that we don't know. That is all i am arguing. You are attributing an opinion to me i did not express and have only suggested as a possibility.

I much prefer the idea of them being a traditional LCN outfit.. but i don't think they are out of necessity. Its not like montreal is bursting with ethnic italians. No disrespect intended, man. I just think your hard line attitude on this one is misplaced. Fernandez may well be full of shit. I don't know and neither do you.

Like I said I like the traditional idea of the mafia, that is what I come here to learn about, it's the group I read books about, watch movies about. I'm fascinated by its exclusivity, it's ceremonies, traditions and symbolism. You mistake my disagreeing with your dismissal with support of the counter argument, but it's not. If I had to bet money, I would bet on you being right, as you usually are. I just don't think there is enough information to make a concrete judgement.



You're especially just that if you don't even have the mystery of the mafia's ritualistic traditions. Almost all criminal gangs manufacture some form of "higher purpose" bond usually based around the Spock theory of the group essentially being more important than the individual and therefore the individual must sacrifice for the group's "greater good" and those that do just that are propped up as examples to be followed, celebrated as 'heroes'.

i.e. "he's a stand up guy" because he did his time without ratting on his pals.

It wouldn't have surprised me if Rizzuto asked them to go along with Joe Bravo in Sicily. He proved he had contacts there as he was wanted for bid rigging or whatever it was with the bridge that was supposed to have been built. Bravo proved even in the taps that he had not went to see Rizzuto since he was out, so chances are he was on the hit list from the beginning. Sounds like Rizzuto gave him one final chance when they had the Cuba meeting but once again he refused to see Vito and that was it.

As for him being made, I don't believe it and I think Cabrini nailed it with the Jimmy Burke reference. Him and Desjardins both brought in a ton of money so of course they had some power. Rizzuto showed both of them respect like he was known to do with everyone no matter their color or background. If you could make money and be loyal (at the time he was out anyways) he had a spot for you. So of course he would act like they were made, they more than likely brought more in than any others as their drug record proves that they were moving lots of drugs. So I don't doubt Joe Bravo thought he was made because Rizzuto "acted" like he was made. So I could easily see him becoming confused.

We also must remember if the two brothers that killed Joe Bravo that if they were not already warned about Joe Bravo and told to go along with him, chances are they knew he could make money due to his drug connects. He might not have had any choice but to try and brag about it to get contacts in Sicily himself, who really knows?

Ooh, that was a confusing post I made, I was replying to the question of ndrangheta moving into New York, I know the Rizzutos ties with New York were severed with Georges murder...

This was the post, by miklo asking about ndrangheta in New York...

Good point, it was speculation on my part..

That's pretty much what I think too Sinatra, that they needed the connects, so they tolerated the guy, and only because of his relationship to Vito.
Once he started blowing Vito off, like, it's ironic, Vito likely was keeping him alive....

There were three killers of Fernandez, the Scaduto brothers and the Carbone character, a cousin. I think one cousin was used as an extra shooter and he's the one who flipped. Pietro Scaduto was one of the shooters, both he and Carbone (The other shooter) were from Toronto and were former bodyguards of Michele Modica. So they knew of Fernandez, and Scaduto was the one Fernandez hooked up with upon his arrival to Bagheria. The guy wasn't dealing with regular soldiers here, he reportedly was among those at a "table" which consisted of Bagheria's Mafia bosses. He'd been met early on during his stay in Sicily by two Canadian mobsters, Dani Ranieri & Dominic Fabiani. It wasn't just his ability to earn tha t made these Sicilians comfortable with dealing with him, while he's claiming to be one of them, it was also the Rizzuto name, which still held weight in Sicily. The guy was caught on wiretap, telling bosses to "show some respect, I sit at the right hand of God. That's how close I am. The boss makes the rules", in direct response to being questioned because of his ethnicity and told "there are rules"...And they could do little about it, because he still had Vito backing him.

Keep in mind, Fernandez was alive and thriving, business wise while in Sicily prior to Rizzuto being released and making amends with those who destroyed his family. The order didn't come from any Sicilian boss, despite Fernandez' supposed middle finger to tradition. It came from Montreal, only after he was ducking Rizzuto and refusing to meet and blurring the lines of his allegiance. That right there is enough to consider Fernandez' claim as an actual possibility. That's all I'm saying.

Would you say that Al Capone was only a high level associate because he had no formal ceremony?

No but the Chicago mob at that time, and probably up through the 1960's, was a unique case. But Capone was at least Italian. So you really can't draw a parallel between him and Fernandez.

I'm not drawing parallels between Capone and Fernandez, the point I'm trying to make is being made through a ceremony is an outdated idea and it only really matters if you're a small time mobster. If you're a high ranked member of a known Italian led organization and you come from an Italian background then you'd be treated like a made guy by other mafia families whether you went through a LCN ceremony or not.

Someone mentioned that guys like Fernandez and Desjardins only mattered in their mafia circles, not outside. I completely agree with that, but high ranked Italian mobsters in Montreal/Toronto/Hamilton are recognized as made men regardless of whether they're LCN or not.

Historically when Cotroni created the family it had no LCN background, it was just an Italian organized crime family that controlled the city of Montreal. Also being from Calabria I don't think they had any 'Ndrangheta connections either. So it was not until the Bonnanos came up that they entered the American LCN circles.

Overall I consider them a mafia family with LCN elements and connections, but not exactly LCN themselves since they're no longer part of the Bonnano family. They also had Sicilian LCN connections through the Rizzutos. I'm not sure if Nick Rizzuto Sr was a made guy back in Sicily but he did marry a woman who came from a mafia family.

You may think it's an outdated idea but there's no evidence the Mafia thinks so. Even today, high-ranking associates (Italian or otherwise) who have the same clout as a made guy are the exception to the rule. I'm not sure who you're referring to in Canada but, when it comes to being a made guy, that typically means he has gone through some form of formal initiation. Even the rare associates that have the clout of a made guy are still recognized as such. Not made members.

Which mafia are we talking about here? I doubt every single family goes through with such ceremonies, sometimes a simple gathering and dinner is enough to consider someone a made man (I think that's what the Outfit does).

Anyways, someone mentioned that the true made men in Canadian mob families are Italians that are either related by blood or marriage, if you're neither then you're not really significant enough to be considered outside your family circle unless your boss decides that you are. This also explains why the Canadian mafia families in general are smaller in numbers when it comes to the number of significant members, this is specially the case among the 'Ndrangheta clans of Toronto and the smaller families of Hamilton.

Canada's mob scene is a lot more complex, diverse, and sophisticated than the US scene, so it's really hard to get a clear picture on how the families are set up and whether they have ceremonies or not.

It came out during the Family Secrets case that the Outfit had been using the same blood and fire ceremony as other families. It may have been different in the earlier years though. But, again, they were the exception to the rule and eventually conformed.

Even if what you're saying about Italian OC in Canada is true, it doesn't apply to Fernandez.

You're really not going to admit that you can't know for certain, are ya, Ivy? hehe. Been a very interesting thread though. Think we'll ever get a definitive answer on Fernandez? I keep hoping somebody close to the Rizzuto's flips so we can get some actual information.

I had a crazy holiday so I've not had time to follow any new developments the last couple weeks, but true to canadian form, there probably hasn't much in the way of news anyway.

Cavalieres law office was bugged. The same law offices Leonardo Rizzuto & Stefano Sollecito used to discuss and plan business, foolishly believing that LE had no right to place bugs in lawyer offices. So who knows, perhaps they spoke about some of this stuff and just like it did with John Stanfa, the transcripts may become part of the trial proceedings and we may truly find out some interesting things.

If by certain you mean 100%, no. But I'd say the chances of Fernandez just bullshitting is at least 95%, all things considered. Frankly, I'm surprised at how plausible some of you guys think it is.

Its not just because of Fernandez words though. While Rizzuto backed him at least, Fernandez was able to sit with bosses in Bagheria, Sicily. Also if we're judging by history, Montreal has always allowed its non-Italian "associates" to get farther than most other families would. For example, Joseph Petrula. Old Cotroni, Montreal Mob guy from like the 50's. He and Luigi Greco were sent by Carmine Galante himself to meet with Lucky Luciano himself, in Italy. Petrula was 100% Ukranian. He ended up being killed after RCMP conducted a raid on his apartment and a ledger book was found which showed how much money the Montreal decina had spent to discredit an opposing politician and disrupt voting during elections. The guy disappeared after Galante and others felt he'd crack and begin to talk. Rumor has it Luigi Greco put his body through a meat grinder in one of his Pizzeria's.

You could say the same thing about the Outfit in past decades. Non-Italians reached high levels. Even in NY some non-Italians had a lot of clout. But none of these guys, who had no Italian blood, ever went through a ceremony or were considered made. Not one. I see no convincing evidence that Fernandez was any exception.

Nicolo and Vito Rizzuto were made members of the Bonanno Family with other top Montreal wiseguys.

I think it comes down to Vito and his father being made members of the Bonanno's, so yes they WERE LCN. Right now? Who knows, most of the Bonanno Montreal crew are dead or inactive.

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=16a094b4-2b20-4de4-86dd-34d85d974c32


According to made Bonanno member, Vito took the initiative to separate his family from the Bonannos. Don't know how you can come to such a definitive conclusion,Peccatore. Let me guess, is it based on "tradition" and "what is Cosa Nostra"?



Nicolo was also a made member of the Manno Family in his hometown of Cattolica Eraclea. He notoriously bucked the rules, it's the major reason why Paolo Violi wanted him dead. And Nicolo probably would've not been alive for so long if it wasn't for the respect he commanded from Sicilians back in Italy, like Giuseppe Settecasi who stepped in for him during his beef with Violi. Like I said on The Black Hand. I dont think its a coinicidence that there were NO Bonanno members who were named or indicted in the many large scale investigations of the Rizzutos and the Montreal Mafia, like Project Colisee, and just recent Project Mastiff & Project Magot. The Rizzutos are known to have investments in Cuba, Saudi.Arabia, Coast Of Africa, The DR, and Italy and the NY Bonannos had NO parts of these investments.


Vito was named in an Italian investigation involved with a bridge connecting Sicily and Naples. There also wasn't one Bonanno name mentioned in that either.

Key point you made there Sinatra, Nicola was made in ITALY, so if Violi wanted to hit him, he needed permission, permission he was never gonna get, one cause he was Calabrian, two Sicily needed he drug pipeline, and the Rizzutos were the point men..

The Messina brigde, is a pity that got cancelled because of alleged mafia influence, they have been planning to build that bridge ever since the Roman empire..

I think you meant to say Calabria instead of Naples, otherwise would be a very long bridge ;-)

Wasnt vito a made guy in sicily

No, he moved to Montreal on like his 8th birthday. But he too was a guy who depended more on the insulation of family and friends coming from his old country..And as we know from Fernandez, Vito was respected by other Sicilian bosses and looked at as one of them.



And yeah, Billy I meant the Messina Bridge project, Lol.

No proof of them being separate, only doing their own thing. Not the same.

No evidence of Nicolo Rizzuto being made in Sicily.

Many people are indicted and nobody else from their Family are included in the indictment. Doesn't mean anything with what we are speaking.

What do you mean no proof? Vitale clearly says "He was supposed to take orders from Joe Massino, but they're their own little splinter group"...Splinter group, as in broke apart.


Nicolo married into the Manno Crime Family in Sicily, Italian Police Documents labeled him a made man.



And you're telling me for a crew that supposedly a part of a NY family, who ultimately has to kick up, youre telling me in not one investigation, ONE investigation is profits linked back to NY? Thus NY mobsters being at the very least named as unindicted co-conspirators?....Ignore the obvious, if you want to, guy.

When will your book be released?

You can read any number of books about the Rizzutos already out, none of which agree with your assertion that they are still an arm of the Bonannos.

Have you read the Sixth Family? That should clear up some of the misconceptions you have.

Have read it. Confirms they are Bonanno Cosa Nostra.

Oh boy here we go again.

I get the distinct feeling this guy is a troll.

Slumpy you are right. Funny how there is a heated debate on the other site and all of a sudden this post is brought back up here as well with the same posts. I refuse to even get into it.

You don't have to waste your time, no books you need to read either. Just read two autopsy reports; one Sciacia, shot in the head, severed Montreal from New York. Second, Sal Montagna, shot, and clarified exactly the position the Bonnano "Boss" held in the scheme of Canadian oc.
This is no disparagement to the NY mob, but an acknowledgement of the reality. You got the Rizzutos, seven Calabrian families, powerful Hells Angels and street gangs, it's another " New York" up there.....

Which other site was there a big debate?

I mean this debate makes more sense, are they traditional LCN, but debating whether the Rizzutos are a Bonnano crew? In 20 fuckin 16? Really?

Nic Rizzuto was most definitely made in Sicily.

During the Controni/Violi years, where they were having trouble with Rizzuto not following rules, failing to show respect and generally acting like he was part of a totally separate organization, Paolo Violi made multiple attempts to remedy the situation bitching to New York Bonnano heavyweights Nat Evola, Phil Rastelli and Mikey Zaffarano. They could do nothing. Hitting Nic would require approval from Italy.

He went so far as travelling to Agrigento, Sicily to meet with Joe Settacasi, the local mafia don there, to appeal to him.
In reality he was never going to go against one of his own.

If Nic Rizzuto had been only made in the Bonnano's, his killing would have been a local matter, approved by Controni,effectively the Montreal capo, possibly cleared through NY, and handled.

The fact they couldn't, shows Nic ultimately answered to Sicily, and was involved in an entirely different game to the one Violi was playing....Sicily needed their own on the receiving end of the drug pipeline, not the American bonnanos.

You hit it on the head with a damn hammer, lol

Not gonna lie, that shit gets on my nerves. They absolutely HATE IT when you state they arent Bonannos. Its like they look up to the NY families more than any other for whatever reason. I posted Vitales court testimony, some guys said I had an obvious valid argument (thanks Sonny, I see you bro, Lol). But just yesterday this one guy reads that same testimony, comments on it, and says "he didn't say anything that has to do with the Rizzutos no longer being Bonannos", even though splinter group by all intents and purposes of the word, means they broke off. And that's exactly what Vitale describes them as. I just gave up, like "oh okay"...Yet not one of them can explain the lack of any Bonanno names coming up in Rizzuto investigations. No audio from any Montreal mafiosi, no wiretaps, no transcripts, implying they answered to the Bonannos. And I'm positively certain this Peccatore character is "toto". And the hilarious thing is, whos their source that the Rizzutos were Bonannos and subservient to them? Dominick Cicale, of all people, and his book with Ed Scarpo. Who btw, despite all his bad habits, HE even states in the same book, that Rizzuto was the boss of his own crime family. Talk about contradictions.

@ CabriniGreen, the other forum is The Black Hand.

Just for a little speculative fun, say the Sicilians stay out of Montreal and there's never a struggle between factions within the organization. Do they stay connected to the Bonannos? What's different? Is Montreal still a major hub in the north America drug trade?

I am not a troll and you can believe as you wish. It does sound like you have had debates.

The question is are the Rizzutos LCN and I say yes, but not an LCN family. They were made into the LCN family.

How are they LCN but not an LCN family? If you believe the Sicilian Mafia and LCN are one and the same, they're an LCN family by all definition. I'd argue that they're the Canadian branch of a Sicilian Mafia family, prided on intermarriages, and insulation. Just like the GTA Siderno Group were the Canadian counterpart of the Siderno 'Ndrangheta.

An LCN Family has boss, underboss, consigliere, caporegime. Montreal did not have this.

Montreal was made into another LCN Family. That is how they are LCN but not an LCN Family. They are LCN members but not an LCN Family.

Okay, so you'll have no issue citing sources that corroborate this opinion, right?

I believe you and SinatraClub may be both right. From my past readings on the subject matter. There were newspaper articles citing that Montreal had a Capo that reported to the U.S.A LCN and this capo had several leutenants reporting to him. This relationship came to an end when Gerando Sciascia got killed by the LCN.This will validate your point. I also find that SinatraClub made a very good comparison of the relationship between the Montreal Sicilian Clan and the Sicilian Clan from Italy. I find the Montreal Sicilian clan always considered themselves to be a separate family but are more closely intertwined with Italy. Whereby Montreal Sicilian Clan and LCN is more a marriage of conveience. I think of it more as a trianglular love affair.

Yes, several of the Montreal Sicilians were related and close due to coming from the same town in Sicily but most were members of Bonanno LCN. They were friends with other Sicilian Mafia clans too. They were not the same Family together.

There are Montreal Italians of other regions some who are Bonanno LCN and others who are ndrangheta.

20 LCN members total in Montreal.

Nah, he has his time line backwards. Montreal started as LCN and slowly moved away once the Rizzutos had supplanted the old Cotroni/Violi faction - They are not separate organizations. They are factions within the same organization. The most widely believed theory is that they cut off all allegiance to the bonannos after Vito's guy in NYC, Gerlando Sciascia was whacked in 1999. And if the Sciascia hit didn't end the relationship, then Joseph Massino flipping probably did. Nobody is suggesting they don't do business with them period, but it's clear they no longer kick up to the Bonannos. Why would they? There's no logical reason for them to remain subservient.

If there is an 'Ndrangheta presence in Montreal, this is the first I have ever heard of it. But it seems to me Pecca here is confusing the 'Ndrangheta with the sicilian mafia... which should be self evident he has no idea what he's talking about.

There is NO 'Ndrangheta in Montreal. There were Calabrians whom were members of the Montreal Mafia. Not Ndrangheta members. Just like there were Neopolitans, and Pugliesi in the Montreal Mafia and families elsewhere. However that doesn't make them Camorra.


And I believe the Capo Ciment may be referring to was Luigi Greco, and there are files and documents which suggest that he too wanted nothing to do with NY, especially after Joe Bonanno was exiled. And this is all the way from the 50's and 60's. The fact that Greco was even referred to in documents as a Liutenant, which is the same thing as a capo, proves Peccatore's claim as incorrect. Nicolo & Vito, once they took the reigns, outside of early NY news articles, which over time were proven to be inaccurate, were referred to as bosses by Canadian authorities. Some like to argue that "well Canada knew little of NY families and their hiearchy". As if NY federal agencies had intimate knowledge of Montreal happenings, or anywhere else in Canada for that matter. Arcadi was also listed in Canadian investigations like Colisee, as various things during different points of the investigation, when Vito was out, he was referred to as his second-in-command, listed as the same before Nicolo's death, and was labeled as street boss, during Vito's incarceration and the death of Nicolo Rizzuto. Whom was also listed in various books and documentation as the Acting Boss. Agostino [BadWord] also held this position prior to his murder, even while Montagna, whom was acting boss of the Bonannos, was IN Montreal.

+1

Good points Sinatra.

The Montreal groups were associated with the NYC Bonnano's from the time Joe Bonnano sent Carmine Galante up there to organize, which was post war 45-47ish.
What Galante found was Luigi Greco, a Sicilian expat, leading a loosely affiliated band of Sicilian LCN members, this is who Nic Rizzuto was aligned with, and the Contorni group, Calabrians, but not Ndrina.

It seems Galante was able to bring these groups together, albeit, there was still tension between the two factions, which is what formed the base of the Bonnanos Montreal crew.

To say there was not much interaction between NY and Canada during this period is an inaccuracy. There is the obvious drug supply connection, but also multiple documented accounts of visits between gangsters from both sides, for both business and pleasure, as well as Montreal was where several of the Bonnano guys headed when they went on the lam.

It seems that the Controni faction, through the 50s and 60s accepted this situation and threw their lot in with the Bonnanos whole heartedly, while the Scilian faction, mostly made up off guys who had been made back in Sicily ,felt stifled under this setup.

The question I have, is when Vito was inducted, and other Montreal mobstersliving in Canada but with the obvious clan ties to the old world familys, to which family did he pledge, the Bonnanos or the Scilian?

I agree with your analysis. My opinion with the pledging would be with the Bonanno's (back then) but because of his blood ties with the old country and Vito's father being who he is; would still be considered a made guy in his hometown.
This subject came about when you discussed Nick in an earlier post about him being a lone wolf and was exiled from Montreal with the intervention of NY.
An example of this is when Paolo Violi was caught in a conversation with the Sicilians from the old country on how to handle a made guy(Nick) that settles in another country and wanted to impose restrictions on him.

Nicolo was never exiled from Montreal though, especially not under the orders of NY. Dunno where you got that tidbit of info from....Violi went to NY to get permission to kill him, NY wouldnt grant him with their approval, because they couldnt. Violi went to Sicily to meet with Giuseppe Settecasi and then asked him for permission, Settecasi had no intention of turning on his own, and ultimately being held responsible for the murder of a Sicilian made guy by a Calabrian who had no links to them. Violin went back, I believe there may have been a second meeting in Montreal between Nicolo, Settecasi, & Violi. And the result was the same but they were advise to amicably work it out. Nicolo still doing his own thing, felt Violi would ultimately try to kill him anyway, so he voluntarily left, for Venezuela and settled with with another family of crime from the triangle of Agrigento, the Caruana-[BadWord]. Whom were made members of the Siculiana Family. That's where Nicolo and by extension, Vito's drug pipeline truly came from. Nicolo and the Caruanas-[BadWord] developed business relationships with South American Drug Cartels, a pipeline NY Bonannos and the Calabrian faction once loyal to them didnt have. Nicolo set up a powdered milk business and furniture export companies in Venezuela which was used to refine the drugs sold to them by the Cartels and then exported into Montreal. The Calabrian side no doubt profitted from this, but they were more like sellers while the Rizzutos were the suppliers. Mind you this really came into effect post Cotroni. But again, Nicolo wasnt exiled, he voluntarily left. And he'd still make visits to Montreal from time to time during this period when the Violis & Cotronis were still in power.


Also, link of piece of document which states Grecos unhappiness with having to deal with NY, and an example of if Nicolo truly answered to NY, why Violi wouldnt have needed permission, as it ultimately boiled down to being a local matter.

And since we have no information or knowledge of Vito being made in NY, I'm going to say his loyalty and allegiance was to his father.

I agree with most of what you posted but respectfully disagree with the exil part. It is my understanding that he was exiled. It was documented in the media, that representatives from NY met with the Montreal clan in St.Leonard,QC. I believe it was decided then to exil him to maintain peace in the family. What worked in his favor was that he was a good earner through his drug connections that you mention in your post. It is also my understanding that police tapes later surfaced on a converstion between Zio Petrino and Paolo about wanting to kill Nick. Once this came out, NY gave the green light to move on the Violi's. This is also why the Cotroni's let it happen by not getting involved. Nick's son and other family members were still able to conduct business in Montrealwhile his father was abroad.

Violi was killed because his Reggio cafe was bugged for over a year and he said a lot of shit he shouldn't of said. Not only that but he didn't make his situation any better during his appearance at the Quebec Crime Commission, it had little while to do with Nicolo. I'd like to know what media it is you're referring to, because this is honestly the first time I'm hearing Nicolo was exiled. Not to mention the Sixth Family, in both the original and updated versions of the book state he voluntarily left. As well as other sources on the matter. And quite frankly, there's been nothing to support the claim that Nicolo was exiled.



Petrino also wasn't a "Sicilian from the old country, he was Violi's consigliere, when Violi was filling in for Cotroni as acting boss, while he was jailed. Pietro Sciara is Zio Petrino. Now I'm going to prove this claim incorrect, and here's where I have to question these media sources of yours. Pietro Sciara spent portions of his life in Cattolica Eraclea. But he was a Canadian resident after being sentenced to house arrest in the Northern Part of Italy. He was made consigliere by Cotroni & Violi, so he was wrongfully and ultimately loyal to them and it's ultimately what got him killed. Now, Violi was literally the only one wanting to exile Nicolo after he couldn't get the Commission to back his request of killing him. Now Nicolo himself went to NY, without anyone calling him there or being sent for, and he met with NY Bonannos. Its unknown what was said during this meeting and it's the only time Nicolo ever went to New York . After this, Natale Evola sent Bonanno representives to Montreal to meet with Violi, Sciara was present at this meeting, the Bonanno reps consisted of Michael Zaffarano, Nicolemo Alfano, and Nicolo Buttafuoco. After Violi, repeated to them how Nicolo went from place to place, without seeking permission, acting like he ran his own family, and ultimately did his own business without including the Violi & Cotroni, the Bonanno reps, because of Nicolos drug connects in South America, ruled that Violi should keep Nicolo in the Montreal fold. Now prior to this, Violi managed to get one Sicilian Mafiosi on his side, Tommaso Buscetta, who strangely enough, had strong ties himself to the Bonannos, he suggested to Nicolo that he just obey Violi and Cotroni, claiming that since Nicolo wasn't a full fledged member of the Siculiana clan, that he just abide by Violi, and wait until hes inducted into the Bonannos. Buscetta was right about the Siculiana part, because Nicolo was a full fledged member of the Manno Clan in Cattolica Eraclea, of course Nicolo didnt listen. Mind you Nicolo had already left for Venezuela, prior to Violi and his exile talk..Pasquale [BadWord] who hosted this meeting, then had to explain to Buscetta, how they're drug pipeline worked, with Nicolos involvement. During this time the Caruana-[BadWord] and the Rizzutos by extension, where the leading importers of Heroin into the US. After this meet, Nicolo simply went back to Venzuela, which enraged Violi. Violi then requested to meet with Antonino Calderone, who was a Sicilian boss from Catania. He wasnt impressed by Violi, called him a fat slob, and automatically felt Nicolo and his Sicilian faction, shouldve held rank and say over Cotroni & Violi. As he said that there were no Men Of Honor in Calabria and he didnt consider them Mafioso. He says Violi was going to Calabria seeking out Mafioso, which he then said, there weren't any in Calabria. He also questioned that if Violi was such a big time gangster, how come he didn't have his own direct channel with 'Ndranghesti in Calabria? He also said that they, in Sicily, didn't induct Calabrians because they talked too much and was always arguing amongst themselves, knowing they we're inferior to Cosa Nostra. He said all this in his memoirs.

During the same time period of that meeting is when Violi secured an audience with Giuseppe Settecasi. Settecasi refused to turn on a Paesano.

After the Bonanno meeting, Violi and Sciara, were meeting with Giuseppe "Pino" Cuffaro. Cuffaro, also a Sicilian Mafioso, but of lower rank, requested to be made into the Montreal Outfit. Violi denied his request, stating that Sicilians come into Montreal and dont understand rules. Violi said he didnt want to hear about their Families and ranks in Sicily, and that they had to be loyal to him, Cotroni & America. Cuffaro came back with Carmelo Salemi, a Sicilian Mafioso visiting Montreal from Agrigento and they pressed the issue to Violi. Salemi was in defense of Cuffaro, but he also wanted Giovanni Caruana, a former boss from the Agrigento Province, who moved to Venezuela, to be recognized as a Mafioso, when in Montreal. Violi told Salemi the same thing and instructed he was beginning a five year probationary period, for all Sicilians before they're recognized as Mafioso or made into the Montreal Outfit. This pissed off Salemi and the majority of bosses back in Sicily, whom wanted their men to be recognized as Mafiosi immediately when in Montreal, so they can run their drug operations freely and without issue.

This also angered some Bonannos, who explicably told Violi to let Nicolo operate in Montreal, as well as other Sicilians. Mind you, the majority of these meetings were being recorded by law enforcement. And that combination of things, led to Violi and all those loyal to him, to be killed. Again Nicolo was never exiled, and a combination of his very own refusal to follow orders from NY, and making everything accessible to the RCMP is what lead to his murder.

It took me 2 seconds to google. Here's your proof. I stopped looking after 2 seconds.

Globe & Mail Nov.23 2006 updated 2009
Nicolo (Nick) Rizzuto, 82

The patriarch of the Rizzuto family came to Canada in 1954 from the small Sicilian town of Cattolica Eroclea.

By 1975, he was identified in a public inquiry as a lieutenant of the Cotronis, the family of Calabrian origin that controlled Montreal's Mafia.

During the power struggle for control of the Montreal Mafia in the late 1970s, he was forced into exile in Venezuela, police wiretaps show. The 1978 assassination of the leading mafioso Paolo Violi enabled him to return, signalling the rise of mobsters of Sicilian origin affiliated with the Rizzutos over their Calabrian rivals.

Mr. Rizzuto served five years in jail in Venezuela for cocaine possession in 1998.
###################################################################

Pietro Sciara was never Paolo Violi's "consigliere". First of all, because Violi wasn't a boss and second of all, even more important, because Sciara was a member of a the Siculiana clan. Sciara was however a confidant of Violi and Cotroni.

I also want to say that I agree with everything that Ivyleague has stated in this thread. I also agree with Peccatore.

You're also of the opinion that the Rizzutos and Montreal as whole we're simply a Bonanno crew, so they possibly couldn't of had bosses or lieutenant's or consiglieres. So you don't have to tell me. Your opinion on things are widely known.

There's also NUMEROUS sources in which Sciara is labeled as consigliere, appointed by Cotroni and Violi. Just like in numerous sources, including RCMP documents and NY files Greco is labeled as a Violi Lieutenant.

I am curious, why do you say Violi wasn't a boss ?
The reason I ask this is that there were many underlinks working for him.
How do you manage that many people without having an organizational structure ? Without one boss it would lead to chaos.

I am curious, why do you say Violi wasn't a boss ?
The reason I ask this is that there were many underlinks working for him.
How do you manage that many people without having an organizational structure ? Without one boss it would lead to chaos.

Bruh, thats a newspaper article, those have been proven to be inaccurate from the past you know. The meeting from NY that youve mentioned, in which I responded to, stating that the meeting did happen, but that NY Bonannos did not rule to exile Nicolo and instead told Violi to let him remain operating in Montreal, this is all supported by those same wiretaps. The sources are mentioned in various books on the subject like The Sixth Family and Mafia Inc. And again, Nicolo was still traveling back and forth to Montreal while he stayed in Venezuela, so how was he exiled? Violi was the only one who spoke about this exile business and he couldn't get permission from NY nor anywhere else. Nicolo voluntarily left, fearing Violi would bypass everything he was told, and would kill him anyway.

You can pick any source to fit your narrative; to say it is inaccurate says who? You have your theory, I gave you mine. Lets agree to disagree.

The sources, the wiretaps, the books written, Nicolos own visits to Montreal, says it's inaccurate. And that's not at all a discredit to you, but to the sources that you're quoting. Its plausible that paper or news site had access to tidbits of transcripts from those wire taps, saw Violis part of wanting to exile Nicolo, saw the fact that left for Venezuela, and put two and two together to reach a conclusion of Nicolo being exiled without actually knowing the full picture.

@Sinatra and @ Climent
I think you both are right, Violi did exile Nicola, and Nicola did use it to go,to Venuezuela and shore up the importation end of his narcotics business, which he would have had to do anyway....
I don't think either of you are wrong....

And it pretty much says exactly that in the Sixth Family...

@ Sonny
I'm can understand agreeing with Ivey, but you really think the Rizzutos are a Bonnano crew? Why exactly? I'm really curious,me specially after everything that's been said, and all the links provided in this thread....

It was kinda covered in the Sixth Family; He " Accepted " membership in the Bonnanos, because this facilitated his drug trafficking, but he was always loyal to his father, and their own family interest.
I'm a little baffled, cause I thought I explained all this, I feel these guys are too stuck on the " Boss" , " Capo" , ect..... They are ignoring the key component, drug trafficking, like wtf?
The Rizzutos are no different than the " Spaniards" from Naples, or the Nuvolettas, or the DiLauros, all families, that started out as crews in bigger organizations, but were pumped with the organizational steroid that is drug trafficking. That's why I gave them as examples. Like the Sicilian mafia is for Sicilians only right? So how the fuck are the Naples based Nuvolettas one of the top families? Like how the fuck they even get made? Answer, the Cupola admitted them cause it was in their interest to do so, they do this a lot more often than people realize...
Saying the Rizzutos are still part of The Bonnanos is to ignore the core tenant of their organization, narcotics, you can't do that. You can't say the Zetas are still part of the gulf cartel, you can't say NewJalisco is still subservient to Sinaloa, how many cartel s came outta Arellano organization or the Fuentes organization. You can't say DiLauro is still under LaMonica, can't say HIS lieutenants that broke away, the Spaniards, are still under him just cause that's where they started,can't say Gennaro Licciardi was still a lieutenant of the forcella boss. The Nuvolettas, Caruana-Cun-trera, Rizzutos, the Gambino-Spatola-DiMaggio-Bontade clan, all these clans operated basically the same, as huge narcotics holding companies, ruled by blood families.
Look at the Cherry Hill Gambinos. Dope family, blood relations. Now John was made in the Gambinos, because this gives him authority in America when dealing with OTHER MADE MEN. But this clans actual loyally was to the Inzirillo- Spatola-DiMagio-Bontade clan. Rosario was made in Italy and that's who he took orders from. So John handles the American end, and Rosario was answerable to Sicily. Now is John a Gambino member' sure. But his JOB, was managing the heroin trade for the mafia, not whether or not so and so is encroaching on someone's bookmaking racket.The Bonnanos made Vito cause it was in their interest to do so, Sonny Red basically took the Sicilians dope and said fuck you, I'm going to be the new boss soon, you ain't gettin paid. And he wasn't going to cut in the other crews, he was basically picking up where Galante left off.
This thing like, are they LCN, are they not, do they have a "Boss, Under, 15 Capos, a consigliere, 100 soldiers" , all that shit is designed to control territory, Rizzutos were mainly concerned with controlling narcotics.


In the book Cosa Nostra, the author has a theory of a " Power syndicate" and an " Enterprise syndicate". Understanding the difference between the two will clear up a lot of confusion here.
You are the boss of the " Luca Brasi" family in Palermo. There are dozens of families operating around you, similar to the dozens of crews operating in New York. You are all in competition with another, within the same sphere of influence, and a lot of the times, competing for the same rackets. You have 50 made men in your family, you are involved in extortion of local businesses, construction, you have several businesses that supply the local markets (let say you supply cheese and whatever, you control the trucking for all the citrus). You need your 50 made men concentrated in your territory because you need to show your military power to your rivals. You control a specific territory and extract revenue from legal and illegal businesses in said territory. You are in control of a " Power Syndicate".

I am the boss of the "Sollozzo Rossatto" family from, let's say......fuck it Agrigento, okay? My town is not Palermo. It's not the city, it's rural. I have 35 soldiers in my family. The economic opportunities are limited for men of honor here. But I have connections in Turkey, with a prominent Turkish crime family, and I have "Family" in, let's say Florida, and they are well established, as well as some family in NewJersey. Now, I can make 100 guys, that is not going to help me facilitate the drug trade in Agrigento. It's also not going to automatically create opportunities to make money, just increases the size of the pie in my little rural area.Whereas the Brasi boss concentrates his strength in his territory' I send my made men out in a DIASPORA, all over, some in Florida, some in Jersey, some in other strategic cities and locations. I can now operate a super narcotics ring, But am unconcerned with controlling territory, I am in control of an "Enterprise Syndicate". Now, can you see how the difference creates almost opposite needs in the organization?
Also in the book, the author makes a point of illustrating that while in NY, Luciano was in control of a power syndicate, cause he controlled territory that he extracted legal and illegal revenue from,but in Italy, it was an enterprise syndicate, because he was involved in all kinds of illegal trafficking, but didn't have the authority to control Sicily or Naples themselves.
Remember in the Sixth Family when Violi told Nick Rizzuto that any arriving Sicilian made men had to wait FIVE YEARS, before they could basically do anything. This was him excersicing control over his " power syndicate" . It wasn't until Violi took that stance that they even felt they NEEDED to control Montreal.
I could really go on and on with examples and shit, but consider this; The Godfather movies predicted ALL this shit. From the first one with the " keep the traffic amongst the coloreds" , then think about Pentagalies rant about the Rossatos, " They recruit Spicks, ni**ers, everything is dope, everything else is last".... but what is ground zero for moving dope in the streets, the poor black and Hispanic neighborhoods, now think Fernandez or Wooley, see? How bout Joey Zaza, " Sure I take in the blacks and the Spanish", likely cause that's where he moves the most dope. He likely can't compete with the established families, he NEEDS the drug trade, and he NEEDED access to those neighborhoods more than he needed more made men. Think about how they said the rules, or Michael, or his lack of prestige, all these things stopped him from rising up. All of this shit is a consequence of a focus , long term, on narcotics... So the Godfather movies predicted all of this as an eventuality of organizations that focused on drugs. Oooooh boy, see I'm not Italian, and didn't grow up in the mafia or New York, but I did grow up in a narcotics entrenched crime family, so a lot of these moves are just instantly familiar to me....

I wasn't telling you in particular otherwise I would've quoted you. And if anybody's opinion is 'widely known' by now it is yours.

Where are these RCMP documents and NY files you're talking about? Are you making things up again?

Violi was a made member and most of those underlings were associates. He was also named acting caporegime by Rastelli in 1975, when Cotroni was serving a short prison sentence.

@Cabrini: Nailed it!!!

Montreal has been a Bonanno crew for half a century. That has been factually proven. However, their exact status in the last decade is unclear because there's little information about it.

Also, half of what's been said in this thread is distorted information.

I agree that they took their cues for half a century from the NY but I'm having a difficult time with Montreal being described as a crew. I believe they are a family. While NY families were having their share of problems,RICO legislations and turncoats; Montreal family flourished under the Cotroni clan and flourished even more under the Rizzuto clan, to the point that they have become powerful. In order for both to flourish the Calabrians and Sicilians had to work together even though they didn't like each other. One ruled over the other but for the sake of prosperity they had to function as one. I believe either group considers themselves as separate families.
PS:They also induct members from other parts of Italy in case someone wants to bring that up.
I still maintain the killing of Gerlando Scascia fractured the relationship between Montreal and NY. At the moment the infighting between these two Montreal clans and the strained relationship with NY have caused setbacks among themselves.

Montreal has always been a family in their own right, with their own organizational structure. While Cotroni was caporegime, he had several "top" made members who were considered to be his lieutenants. Technically speaking Cotroni was the "boss" of Montreal, because he was officially the highest ranking member. All the other made members officially had equal status, but unofficially some were ranked higher than others. Cotroni saw Violi as his protégé and potential successor, so Violi was unofficially the second highest ranking member in Montreal. When the Rizzutos took over in Montreal they also had their own organizational structure with several "top" members who oversaw their own crews. They were certainly not an ordinary crew like the ones in New York, because they had more priviliges and autonomy to handle their own affairs.

Err, I just posted an excerpt of a NY file that was in relation to the Bananas war on the last page in which Greco is id'ed as a lieutenant. Or do you presume I somehow created this document?

I also literally had JUST said to you that Mafia Inc. also ID's Sciara as a Cotroni & Violi appointed Consigliere. Which you can read yourself on pg. 93. Or do you assume these guys had no sources for their information and that they had no idea what they were talking about?

I also posted Vitales court testimony from the De Fillippo/Basciano trial in which he says that Vito didn't answer to Massino because they had created their own "little splinter group". But let me guess, Vitale "could've meant anything", right.


None of the info or links posted in this thread is distorted. You just seem to have some weird infatuation with a NY family thats literally BEEN the Red headed step child of the Five Families since the 60's, and seem to be giving them more power than they actually held at certain times throughout their history.

You also cannot deny the fact that in numerous investments around the world, of the Rizzutos and Montreal, has NO Bonanno links. You also cannot deny the fact that throughout numerous investigations by the RCMP, joint investigations between the RCMP and Quebec Crime Commission, which was going on since the early 90's, NO Bonanno links had been found, nor were any Bonannos named , charged or indicted. Or is this merely a coincidence to you? Or the Canadian authorities were stupid when it came to NY? Again youd have to be implying that NY knew all about Montreal and Canada, which there is ZERO evidence to support. Not to mention Vitales meeting with Vito and his men occurred in '01, I believe? So it's been well over a "decade or so" that the Rizzutos and Montreal as a whole neglected their Bonanno connection.

Also, in the case of Montagna, in more than one book, let's say Business Or Blood for example. Its heavily implied, WITH sources which are listed by chapter in the back of the book. That Montagna got the okay to move against the Rizzutos from Ontario and a NY family linked to guys there. We've learned through very recent drug cases both in Ontario and in NY, that the NY family with links into Ontario are the Gambinos, NOT The Bonannos. The Ontario/Gambino links were also mentioned by Antimafia on various forums, before these drug cases ever came into fruition. So I'd assume that the NY guys whom were actually meeting with Montagna and where he was taking his cues from, were NY Gambinos, acting in conjunction with Ontario clans. Again, NOT the Bonannos. Which is a theory being put forth on The Black Hand, that Nicolo & Nick Jr died because of Vito officially informing the Bonannos that he was breaking ties during a meet in 2001.

Smart man right here. Seriously.

What has that got to do with with Pietro Sciara..?



They do state that. But the fact of the matter is that Violi was not an official boss and Sciara was a member of a different family, which they also confirm.



All your ramblings about Rizzuto and Violi are from the top of your head instead of the book which is distorted information. You've been doing this on the other forums as well.



You must be delusional, because there is plenty of evidence that there are links between the Rizzutos and Bonannos. The FBI for instance listed Vito as a soldier in the Bonanno family.

And then there is this:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...ls-cocaine-ring

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...prosecutors-say

http://nypost.com/2013/04/29/bonanno-cri...-nyc-drug-ring/

http://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/alle...rs-imprisonment

http://www.dea.gov/divisions/nyc/2013/nyc050613.shtml



Are you saying there were no links to the Bonannos as far back as the early 90s?



So, what has this got to do with the current discussion? I'm still waiting for you to provide a link to those RCMP documents and NY files that list Sciara as consigliere...

@ Sonny- You are kinda saying two things at once; In successive post you say, Violi wasn't a boss, Montreal was a Bonnano crew for 50 years, then you kinda say Montreal was always its own family, with Cotroni as "boss" , capo but effectively,on a day to day basis his own boss. If he's a boss, and he goes to jail, and Violi was his number 2, then Violi woulda been an acting boss? Or acting Capo? I think you might be confusing Cotronis crew with Rizzutos organization. Do you consider them the same entity? Cause Violi complained a lot about Rizzuto basically bringing over his own men and operating like a separate group, do you still consider these to be part of the same syndicate? I for one don't ......

You also said they have their own organizational structure, but you argue whether or not they have a consigliere? I think you are kinda proving the schism between the organizations, if you think about it a little more.....

And I Think you read too much into this guy, who is clearly just a drug dealer, he's not made or nothing, no one in Canada woulda been taking ORDERS from him...
I said it before, you can't overlook the drug component Sonny, the Colombians had the biggest Cartels in the world, they used the Mexicans as mules, it only took ten years or so for the situation to be completely reversed. But you think it can't happen in the mafia, why? Cause it's the mafia? Sonny drug trafficking does not bend and warp to fit the mysticism and rules of mafia tradition, all examples in real life show its the other way around, that it's the Mafia rules, traditions that get bent, warped and manipulated to fit in with drug trafficking.. Drugs made ndrangheta the most potent mafia in the world, while a focus on territorial control, and crazy violence made Sicily a shadow of its former self...

@Billy @ Sinatra
Thnx for the compliments fellas, I enjoy these great discussions!!!

You posted five links, which were all discussing the same investigation. In which no Rizzuto members were ever charged or indicted in. The Cournoyer case is well known, however that isn't an example of the Rizzutos and The Bonannos working hand in hand, so my point stands. It really comes off as if Cournoyer was sold drugs by The Rizzutos and Hells Angels, specifically marijuana, which he in turn, sold to Taloni to traffic on the West Coast. Cournoyer also sold the same drugs he bought to Valenoiz, who operated out of Jaguar 6, in the name of Vinny Green, whom was delivered the drugs by Valenoiz. The Valenoiz guy or however he spelled his name, was indicted in the case for allowing his club to be used basically as a drug spot, or a traffickers HQ, and what caught him up was his bragging of Cournoyer, not the Rizzutos or anyone linked to them, having basically a standby account to hire hitmen to get rid of rats. Which actually never came into fruition. Cournoyer was a Rizzuto customer. Who had the same intuition as most street level, yet profitable dealers, who sell the drugs they buy, to others as opposed to using them. There was no evidence in that case of Bonanno men, getting their drugs directly from Rizzuto or any of his men. NONE. Racine was also connected to Cournoyer and oversaw his warehouses and possibly was Cournoyers stable link to Valenoiz and Vinny Green, a mere Bonanno soldier. Cournoyer did buy drugs from Mexican cartels and possibly exchanged this cocaine to the Rizzutos and HA's for the marijuana. Thats what seems to be his link to the rizzutos & associates of the Angels. Keep in mind the Rizzutos were major traffickers of heroin and not cocaine, and after Desjardins was out, Rizzuto or his men simply needed a new cocaine connection to capitalize on the drugs popularity. Cournoyer seems to have met that demand, but was given marijuana in exchange. Again, theres no evidence to support hand in hand interaction between the Rizzutos and NY Bonannos.

The FBI listed Rizzuto as a Bonanno soldier, so what.Vitale confirmed that wasn't the entire case with his very own court testimony. Capeci used to write this too in his articles, but was forced to change his thoughts on the matter, after being contacted by numerous Canadian authors and former law enforcement about not fully understanding what goes on in Montreal. Its possible that the FBI had little idea as well. Which they didn't until Vitale testified saying that Rizzuto was supposed to answer to Massino, but had effectively created his own splinter group.


The point with Greco and what exactly it has to do with Sciara is the fact that you're claiming Sciara wasn't a Consigliere in Montreal, because Montreal had no bosses, or ranks. Yet Greco is ID'ed by an FBI file in relation to the Bonanno War as a Cotroni lieutenant. Disputing that claim of yours right there.

You're also being majorly hypocritical, by saying Sciara couldn't of been a Consigliere for Violi & Cotroni, because he was a member of a Sicilian Family. Yet refusing to acknowledge that Nicolo was a member of a Sicilian family, who brought his son into the Mafia. But are labeling them simply as Bonanno members. Like, seriously?

You also fail to understand what I'm saying by mentioning what the book says and the sources that state Sciara was a Violi/Cotroni Consigliere. Mafia Inc. & The Sixth Family make this claim, their sources are FBI, RCMP and Quebec Crime Commission documents, which they listed in the back of both books, which they had access to, which they didn't just pull out of the ass and list. Access that I currently don't have because I'm currently unable to pay for said documents. What I do have access to, I've posted numerous times over to support my points made in this thread and others.

The Montagna/Ontario/Gambino connection, has everything to do with this. Because the Bonannos sending him is a theory mentioned, which I've personally seen you acknowledge and support on forums like The Black Hand and The Real Deal.

Now please, tell me, what is this distorted information thats in this thread that isn't in books, but "off the top of my head"?

No shit. I posted five separate "sources" about a recent investigation that linked Montreal and the Bonannos. You claimed that there were no investigations 'around the world' that showed a link between them.



As a matter of fact Vitale did confirm that Vito was a soldier in the Bonanno family otherwise he wouldn't have offered him to become capo in the first place.



It still has nothing to do with Sciara. Not to mention that lieutenant isn't even an official title. Greco was however at some point acting capo of the Montreal crew. Violi took over that role after Greco died.



They were labeled as Bonanno members by Tommaso Buscetta, maybe you've heard of him. And I actually believe in the possibility that Nick Rizzuto was inducted into the Manno clan before he transfered to the Bonannos in Canada.



I really don't care what sources are supposedly listed in the back of a book. Anybody can make that claim. You have to be able to show those specific sources that support your statements, otherwise it has no validity whatsoever.

I don't think that you understand what I've posted even though I tried to explain it as clearly as possible. I suggest that you start looking for the meaning of the phrase 'in their own right'.

I think this is getting bogged down in this semantics of titles, who's a boss, who's a capo...does being labelled a lieutenant hold the same power as a capo?

Its clear that Montreal was a Bonnano crew headed by Vic Controni until his imprisonment where Violi stepped in, I guess in an acting capacity. By the time of his release Violi was dead and Contrini accepted the new admin... the rizzutos.

It seems they themselves don't label each other with official titles, perhaps as a deliberate rouse to keep outsiders guessing, but as in any organization there will be some individuals that will for whatever reason, float to the top. If people like sciara were used in a counseller position, weather there was an official title or not, is not exactly surprising.

All evidence shows they were pulling away from the Bonnanos from the early/mid ninties, acting for all intents as a separate family. The NY Bonnanos clearly had no idea what was going on up north, and the Canadians weren't clearing anything or going on record with the bosses back in NY for anything they were doing.

They didn't even know how many guys they had up there. If the Canadians were submitting a list for approval, at least approval from the Bonnano admin, before making guys, they would have had some idea but its clear from Vitale they had none.

Vitale says the last tribute received came down end of year 1998. Sciassia gets knocked March 99. It seems to me Montreal was pulling away prior to this, the killing was just the excuse needed to officially sever ties.

At this point, I think anyone who thinks Montreal is still under the Bonnano flag is crazy.

Says here Sollecito is the boss

http://aboutthemafia.com/montreal-mafia-leaders-rizzuto-and-sollecito-fight-for-bail

Leonardo and Stefano are the bosses. In that chart mentioned showed at the conference the day they were locked up, they were pictured side by side.

I haven't read all this stuff but it seems obvious to me that they were once a faction but now are autonomous.

I'd say at this point both are bosses too. I think Sollecito is the gangster of the two, and Rizzuto is the brains of the operation.

The B's probably don't want anything with them, and vice versa. No reason for the Rizzutos to pay tribute to the weakest BY fam hundreds of miles away. Why people care is beyond me. It's not 1970.

I think Sollecito isn't a dummie either. But I agree that he is probably in charge of the street operations while Leonardo represents the interests of the Rizzuto family. Soon Arcadi will be out and he probably wants a large slice of the pie if not the whole pie itself.

I agree with your analysis. It would be interesting to know what will happen with Arcadi. If he takes the whole pie that won't sit well with the others. If he is accepted back, my bet is that they may make him underboss or lower. I can't see him hold a post higher than that without starting an internal fight. Then there is another problem if Leonardo and the young Sollecito go to jail, they will have to appoint an acting boss which most likely will be chosen from the emerging young Sicilians that sit at the table.The elderly Sollecito will probably act in an advisory roll. Just speculating !

The time of the Sicilians in the Montreal Mafia has come and gone. This recent bust is proof of that. They've been on the decline, and this was the final nail in the coffin. Rocco has been playing an advisory role between Leonardo & Stefano, that won't be anything new, he was reported consigliere by the Gazette after Vito died. The fact that the Spagnola fellow wasn't scooped up in this bust is a big indication that his role wasn't what it was speculated to be when the first reports of a table came out and nobody believed me that Leonardo may have possibly been heading things along with Sollecito, and Spagnola was reported to be boss as opposed to Leonardo who some reporters were still simply calling a legitimate lawyer. It seems as if the Montreal Mafia has reverted back to what it was in the Cotroni days, Calabrians representing the larger portion, thus being the power, there are still Rizzuto cousins and nephews and uncles involved but it's hard to tell yet what they're role is in everything. Arcadi is coming home, he'll most likely be named boss or declare it himself, I don't see him settling for anything else. Giordano has been home, Del Balso is due out soon as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Especially with Arcadi, who is calabrian, has relatives who may possibly be 'Ndranghisti, and was growing sour on the Sicilian clan before his arrest. Since I don't see him backing down, I'd like to see if the remnants of the Sicilian clan feel they're still enough of a force to step to him and challenge him. Not to mention other members of La Milieu were never really happy with him, he treated everyone like assholes and acted as if they were beneath him, especially the black gangs. However guys may have realized there will never be another Vito, and he might last off that fact alone.

If things do go down non-amicably, I suspect Giordano and Del Balso will side with him. Thats just my opinion.

That's prescisely what I've been thinking for awhile now, I've asked the question numerous times on this site, with the Rizzutos traditional strenghth being narcotics suppliers, and with Ndrangheta and the Mexicans being the biggest suppliers on both sides of the Atlantic now, how does it affect Rizzuto power, and what role do they play in the larger scheme of Italian-American drug trafficking, and indeed drug trafficking in general? I think that's the new question to ask.
Sinatra, what you said about the Gambinos interest in Ontario, and them probably giving the OK to Montagna is super interesting, cause I've been speculating for awhile now that the Gambinos wanted in on that action, like they wanted to replace the Role that the Rizzutos had, actually it really was their role forabout 20-25 years, ( heroin rings, pizza connection) I've been trying to figure out how New Yorks families (gambino, genovese) fit in with the new order....

I don't know too much about the Genovese, but I've heard a couple of times that the Gambinos are still in collusion with Ontario for the drug market. And then there was that bust not too long ago which linked the Gambinos & 'Ndranghisti in Calabria in a drug trafficking case. Its definitely nothing I can confirm but in my opinion, I'd say the Gambinos & Ontario clans are still working together.

It probably depends on the drug being sold. Heroin and coke (and crack by extension) are two different markets of users. I suppose in lieu of one you could persuade users to try another... But heroin addicts typically need heroin. Is that what the Rizzuto drug trade continues to rely on? I've always assumed it still relies on heroin, but I really don't know.

In any case, it seems like the Siderno Group is poised to overtake the Rizzutos as Canada's preeminent Italian OC group. Which makes sense. The last few years of war seem to have taken a serious toll and the recent bust of Leo and Sollecito may result in a period of interregnum, which may well end Rizzuto control entirely. With Vito gone, I wonder how much connection to their Sicilian roots remains?

The recent Project Mastiff & Project Magot cases, seem like heroine trafficking cases to me. I'm not sure, because the evidence has been put under a type of non-share act during the bail proceedings. But Leonardo was just hit yesterday with 8 more new charges, one of which is a cocaine possession charge, with no intent to sell. Why they'd make that drug and charge public but not the others makes me think it may not be including in the same case or guidelines as Mastiff & Magot. But with Arcadi now coming back, that market could just as easily be controlled by the Calabrians next.

Sinatra you know I gave you props when I didn't believe that about Leonardo. I admit I didn't believe it until I seen it. As for Rocco, I think he was the consig even before Vito died and still has that role I think. I think he is acting boss since both "boys" are in jail right now, but that is just my speculation and not something I seen anywhere.

Sonny I wasn't trying to imply Stefano was a dummy, it's just that I think that is how the team is set up. Stefano has always seemed to traffic drugs and I figured Leonardo used his name to set up what Stefano couldn't. We know there is some kind of setup since they are both in power it seems. This bust seems kind of sloppy though with Rocco advising them (we think) so I wonder what the evidence is here. The RCMP could be reaching or they could have enough to nail them, hard to tell with the publication ban in place.

I wonder if Desjardins is trying to use the Calabrian faction to stay alive and/or to try and gain power back? I wouldn't be surprised to see him team with Arcadi, but I don't know if they have done much together in the past or not. Plus we don't know Arcadi's standing yet, if he is still in good standing I could see him holding a top position. If he doesn't want to come back quietly and going to war to get the top spot back things will be really interesting. We know Del Balso and Giordano will follow him, but is he on the hit list or not? I doubt he would make a move until all 3 are out as well.

But it will be interesting to see what happens when he is free.

The Genovese have absolutely nothing to do with it, everything points in the direction of the Gambino's, mainly John Gambino. Cali has made many trips to Canada recently apparently.

I get frustrated when I see a response like this one, mainly cause I beeeen asking what's up with it...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/08/nyregi...ation.html?_r=0
Lol, come on now, you almost act like I pulled that outta my ass...

Were talking about The Westside being tied to N@drangheta in Canada here, so why are you frustrated? and were they even involved in the gigliotti bust? All I've seen is articles like federici to them.

That's what I mean Tommy, it's interesting BECAUSE they were mentioned at all, I thought they stayed away from high level narcotics, but you,can't ignore the potential implications, it would mean three of the five fams in NY are into high level cocaine trafficking,
I was only frustrated cause you said they had NOTHING to do with it, when the article says the Genovese might have been financiers, that this guy was a west side associate.
Also because like I said, I asked this a long time ago and got silence on the boards..
It seems a little buzz are that they would get involved, and if not the west side, then was this,group part of the Gambino-Bonnano-Mexican group? Are these all the same thing or separate operations? Like in that article, they say that there was a three ton Coke shipment next to the smaller load from NY. They didn't know if these were two different cartels or what. I'm basically asking similar questions.... Any thoughts? I've got a few.....

And I for the record, agree with you 100%, I suspected Cali to be knee deep in this ever since the Old Bridge bust....

What does that have to do with the Genovese being linked to N'drangheta in Ontario though? This is NY. That's what was the topic and that's why I said they've got nothing to do with them.

First let me say, I didn't mean to snap at you, I thought I was getting bogged down in another long drawn out debate, I already did a couple long post lol.... So my bad...
But on your point on NY, I think you are answering one of my questions with your own, and one of my questions is indeed, is this queens group operating at the behest of Ontario? Or was,it the initiative of another rival family from Calabria who set it up?Because the way I understand it, even though the Coke is shipped out of NY, anything Ndrangheta this side of the Atlantic, as far as the streets that they control, IS Ontario, like that's the central command... But this seems like another family from Calabria, setting up a parallel pipeline for themselves, outside of any consortium arrangement..
So again, I think we pretty much agree, the genovese have little to do with it, I guess I was just confused as I got it from all the articles on the arrest, but you seemed confident it wasn't about much.... But you are like a PB of the Gambinos, so I'll,yield to your knowledge...
I wasn't thinking in terms of territorial control, more of drug flow...
This wasn't them like, setting up a crew to sling outta clubs, which is what I initially thought and was like, huh? They were just using NY as a place to organize shipments out of the country, what's weird is that they were using NY at all, cause see, they have their own methods to get Coke to Europe. The interesting thing, is that their Coke usually goes over water, but NY Coke most likely got to NY by land, I.e. Mexicans or Dominicans, most likely Mexicans though...

Who knows man maybe it is Ontario behind it, my knowledge is extremely limited outside of NY. don't yield to me I'm just a kid from England who enjoys knowledgeable posters like yourself debating OC