Crime families size in heyday and present day

I discovered this site a couple of days ago and I must say it's very informative and I've learned a lot of new things.
I have one question though, can anybody tell me what the size of all the families was in their heyday, probably the 50's and 60's compared to today..

I know for instance from this site that the Denver, New Orleans, SF and SJ families are extinct, but I wonder how many made men they had in their heyday..

You'll see some pretty big figures for the NY families at their peak, ranging anywhere from around 200 to 400+. In my opinion, the estimates before the 1980s are not as reliable and become more suspect the further you go back. The max memberships D'Arco listed in his book were smaller. 300 for the Genovese and Gambinos, 150 for the Colombos, and 125-140 for the Luccheses and Bonannos.

From what I have read, New England and Philadelphia were around 70. New Jersey 60. Pittsburgh 30-35. Cleveland 50-60. Milwaukee 60 (not sure how much I believe that one). Detroit 75-100 (not sure how much I believe that one either). St Louis 35-40. Tampa 25-30. New Orleans 20. San Jose 30-35. San Francisco 25. Los Angeles I've seen as high as 60-70 in the 1950s but I find that hard to believe. Chicago has always been hard to read for obvious reasons but I've seen a max of 150-200, supposedly peaking in the 1970s. Not sure about Denver but, considering it was more of a gambling syndicate built around the Smaldones, the actual membership would probably be as small or smaller than anything listed above. Same for Dallas.

What's interesting is, if you add up all the possible max memberships of all the families it is closer to half of the 5,000 member so often quoted for peak Mafia membership.

Wow, 150-200 for Chicago? Did not expect that. What years, Ivy?

Ivey, don't bite my head off,
But why don't you believe Detroit coulda had 75- 100 members?
I really don't understand, this is 1940s and 50s Detroit, not today's bankrupt Detroit.
This was dope Capitol, auto industry Capitol, union power, Motown, still connected to Sicily, married into profaci family Detroit, right?
You don't think they were at least the equal of philly? Or Cleveland?
Really? I honestly don't get it...

I don't think D'Arco would know much about family sizes prior to his being made acting boss in 1988 or so.

Chicago 150 seems too high as do most of them. Cleveland seems right.

Those figures come from two sources.

The 150 members comes from what was probably the most well researched and knowledgeable poster on the Outfit I've seen on the forums. Some may remember "Little Al" from the RD forum years ago. Again, he said the membership peaked in the 1970s.

The 200 members comes from a statement made by former federal prosecutor Gary Shapiro last year when he said the Outfit’s membership never exceeded 200 members since the 1950s.



Yes, I do think they were at one time the equal of some of the other families you mentioned. And none of them got to 100 members. 75 I could maybe believe.



D'Arco said those were the maximum membership Luciano determined. Which, if that was the case, would be well known in terms of policy down through the years.

Makes sense...

Ivy good post. I disagree with Pittsburgh, I say 60 to 70 members at its peak and this was in the 1930s. Denver is hard, but if you go by the other Colorado crews sizes, Pueblo had maintained the power in that state from 1933 till the late 1960s at their peak they had 15 to 18 members, Trinidad had 6 members at its peak, so Denver would be roughly the same size as Pueblo. Los Angeles and Milwaukee 45 members a piece. When seeing those high numbers for Los Angeles, it is cause people are adding the San Diego crew and members from different families that operate in Los Angeles.

I never understood why they put a cap on membership. Woudln't the families want to expand as much as possible like any business? As long as a guy meets a certain earning expectation (as well as some history of violence) that is a good enough to be made why wouldn't give him his button?

From what I understand, it was to keep the relative balance of power between the families. In other words, to prevent one family or another from trying to expand as much as possible and becoming a threat to the other families.

i think control also played a part in it. Who can be Boss with 400 men to watch and direct?

Thanks a lot for the info Ivy..
Little Al's book is on my list to read next when I'm done reading The Sixth Family, also a great book..

So in actuality there were 'only' 2500 made men in the heyday of the American mob. That's for me also a much more feasible figure. I think law enforcement exaggerated the numbers or counted some associates as made men. I think the only men who can truly say correctly how big a family was/is, are informants who are at least capo in one of the families. Guys like Scarpa, Gravano, Fratianno, Lonordo and little Al of course..

The San Diego crew was part of the LA family, though. Frank Bompensiero was the man down there from prohibition until the 1950s. IIRC Fratianno said that when he was made in the late 1940s that 30 men were present for the ceremony. 5 guys got made plus another 5 guys in the early 1950s. So I find anywhere from 45 to 60 members at Dragna's peak to be believable.

If that is true, why have none of the rats before or after him ever mentioned such a thing? Wouldn't guys like Gravano, Scarpa, Massimo, DeFede, Vitale, or Casso have known about such a rule?

Huh? A cap on their memberships has been common knowledge for years. It's one reason why the families have to vet their prospective members with the other families and show which deceased members they are replacing. It's why Jo Jo Corozzo and Sal Vitale accused each other of finding names in the phone book to use as dead members they could then make new members to replace.

sal wanted to make 15 guys and jo jo,peter and maybe even nicky c(cant remember if he was there) and the gambinos said no where are you going to find 15 guys in this day and age

I think it was 10 guys and Nick Corozzo was the one who asked, "Where are you going to find 10 guys?"

Is it really that bad nowadays that they can't find 10 new recruits? I thought each made member would have at least one associate under their wing.

first of that meeting happened in the mid 90s when things really were bad things are alot better than before. Alot of guys were flipping nickys point was can you find 10 guys to make who wont flip and are trustworthy

it was an excuse they did not want the bonannos strengthening too much also to make ten guys at once is extreme. The bonnanos saw it as a chance to grow and strengthen the bonannos were also breaking there membership limit. i know the decavs made huge amount of guys ten years ago like 8 9 10 guys but it is not normal for familys to make that many guys all at once

http://njlaw.rutgers.edu/collections/gdoc/hearings/8/83602776b/83602776b_2.pdf

he is the lists of guys and the numbers.It has been on this forum once,but i thought i could post it again.Lucchese had the smallest number of soldiers,supposedlly bonnanos had 195 soldiers..

?????

They can and do find even more than that. The fact the NY families have been able to keep their memberships stable prove as much.

I think Corozzo's comment was more towards the quality of the guys Vitale was looking to make.

That 195 figure for the Bonannos at the time has always struck me as strange and rather unbelievable. For one reason, it is such an outlier compared to other estimates of the Bonannos before and after. Furthermore, you can count the Bonanno members listed in the link you posted. There are about 120. While I don't think they knew of every member, I doubt 75 guys had managed to go unidentified.

Yes it was a little odd that the Bonannos had the same number of soldiers as the WS,not imposible but strange.Anyway,I thought tha the Gambino and Genovese familly had a lot more soldiers than that.At least 300 each,what do you think Ivy?
The Colombos 150 soldiers?Luccheses the smallest,can it be?

300 for the Genovese and Gambinos would probably be right if we're talking the 1950s and 1960s. But this report is from 1983. And the family estimates in the report (total members, not just soldiers) all seem accurate for the time except the Bonannos.

Gambino - est 250
Genovese - est 200
Bonanno - est 195 (actual list shows 120)
Colombo - est 115
Lucchese - est 110

Obviously what stands out like a sore thumb is the 195 for the Bonannos. I don't know what it's based on but I don't believe they were this big at the time, if ever.

I get what you are saying,it was 1983.The thing that bothers me is 110 for the Lucchese crime familly.Warent they number 3 in NY,since...like allways..?

Can anybody spot Joe Butch Corrao somewhere?

I'm not sure the Luccheses have always been #3. I think while the Genovese and Gambinos have always been #1 and 2, the three smaller families have fluctuated between #3-5. Also, since the 1980s, I don't think any of the three smaller families have gotten above 125 members.

Agreed.

Sciacca was overheard on wiretap in the 1960s saying that the Bonannos had 180 members. He was in a position to know the exact numbers. Also, it seems that many forget to include the Montreal crew. Bonanno was apparantly criticed for making new members when the books were closed. I don't see how Bonanno would allow his family, which was one of the three original families in New York, to be smaller than the Colombos or Luchesses. Especially because Bonanno was seeking to become the most powerful boss and was accused of 'planting his flags all over the world'.

If one goes with the higher estimates at its peak, 180 members or more would be believable.

Don't bite my head off but...https://books.google.com/books?id=wAyRzj6j3zEC&pg=PA645&lpg=PA645&dq=five+families+bonnanos+1998+150+15+crews&source=bl&ots=ch_LBiF4iu&sig=LYolodU9IC-oC7LwUvbuD2SCIRA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCoQ6AEwBWoVChMI-vvIq7qoyAIVA5yACh1IZgbC#v=onepage&q=five%20families%20bonnanos%201998%20150%2015%20crews&f=false
This says they had over 150 in 1998.....
And everyone reveres this book so.....

https://books.google.com/books?id=wAyRzj...ews&f=false
Don't know why the link didn't work.....

As far as which families were what, I don't know:
I read The Morello book, they said at no point did Maranzano have more men than masseria, or even money, yet he won the war cause he had soldiers whose loyalty was based on pride more than money. The CAstellamarre click stuck together, this made MAranzano more powerful than Masserria when war broke out, even though his family was smaller and had less money.
The Luchesses were small, but I think pound for pound they kept pace or made as much money as any family, so their members (I could be wrong) were probably on average richer than the average wise guy, does this make them a weaker or stronger family?
It seems to me if the 1998 Bonnanos can have 150, it's reasonable for the 1950-60s BOnnanos to have 180-190 or whatnot. Remember, they coulda had a lotta zips too...
The GAmbinos seem to have always been the biggest numbers wise, but does that make them automatically number 2? But under DAquila they were first? I get confused about this...
I've been trying to diagram a map of power on this time period for a while now, it's still confusing..

I'm aware of the 150 members estimates for the Bonannos by the early 2000s. I think they were a little inflated.

In 2001, the feds released a no contact list for Robert Lino that included all 111 known Bonanno members (including Lino himself oddly enough). Frank Lino testified the family had 12 captains and 100 soldiers in 2003. Add a 3 man administration and you're looking at 115 members. And wiretaps for the Basciano case in 2006 revealed the family had less than 100 soldiers then. Even if we go with 99 soldiers, and throw in another dozen or so administration and captains, it doesn't come to 150 members.

How about Joquin GArcia saying the Gambinos had 26 crews? How does that work? How many soldiers you think that would equate to?

I've read that the gambino had 30 captains...

I think you can see why I try to read as much as possible, but kinda draw my own conclusions a little bit, like everyone respects the five families book, so is the guy a hack? Probably not, just a mistake I guess, but he's supposed to know right? Lol

Masseria was considered the strongest boss. And the crime family head took over had long been considered the top family.

For being one of the smaller families, the Luccheses did have extensive rackets, including considerable union clout.

The Genovese and Gambinos were always close in terms of size. At some point along the way, maybe the 1970s, the Gambinos were considered the bigger organization though not substantially so. The Genovese became the bigger organization in the 1990s but not by much. Today both are said to have around 200 members.

26 crews seems like a bit of a stretch. During Gotti's reign there were 21 crews. Later, during the 1990s, the family was down to 10 or 12 fully functioning crews at one point. While I believe they have more than that now, 26 seems high. As I said above, 200 total members is the estimate.



Not at all. Raab is one of the best mob journalists out there, right up there with Capeci, Anastasia and Robbins. But his figures have always been on the big side. You'll notice in chapter 28 of the book, which is after the Commission case in the mid 1980s, he has the Gambinos at 400 members. In one 1995 article he said the family had gone from 400 to 200 members in the last 5 years. Not sure how that's even possible. In the book and article, he had the Genovese family at 300 members which also seems inflated for that time.

i dont jack said that the feds had 23 capos in there wcharts that was 2004 and that he informed the feds about three capos they did not even know existed

the feds did not even have louie fillpeni as anything to do with the mob (even though he was a made guy who reported directly to arnold) alphonse as a low level soldier but jack said the investigation said he was a capo not a soldier. They did not even know alphonse crew existed


i think jack falcone will know how many capos there are seeing as he was in the gambino family for two years he said at the beginning of the investigation he arguared constantly with the higher ups in the feds because the feds kept saying its not on pur chart it cant be real


the feds did not even have jo jo corezzo as consgleire and arnold as boss and tony megale as underboss


embarrassing really


jack will know better than any of us. That 12 full functioning crews was an exaggeration by rabb and the feds looking for there headlines

the FBI did not seem to realize that the guys who got arrested were replaced the feds started to believe there own headlines

But see Ivey that's what I mean, MAsseria was seen as the strongest boss, UNTIL they went to war, then it became clear he was actually no match for MAranzano, esp after Morello was killed.
What makes you number one, having the biggest family, making the most money, or having the better army? History has shown force beats money, Gotti- CAstellano, Casso/Amuso vs the Harlem Bronx guys, Corleonesi vs BOntade families, there are other examples but you get my point.
To me power is water, not stone.
Like MAssino was considered top boss in the late 90s, but it was a prestige thing, not based on family size or wealth, for me the question of power is where it gets interesting...

Masseria was betrayed. The war would have dragged out another year or so in a stalemate with the lose of men and money on both sides and chances are LCN would not have the big grip they had on the unions later on.
On the topic of Jack Garcia, he was not the only agent that gave the feds information about a crime family that the feds disbelieved and cast it a side. They did it a couple of times, when Joe Pistone said that Carmine Persico was calling the shots in the Colombo family instead of Tom DiBella, and said that Nick Guastella remained with Joe Bonanno instead of switching to San Jose. Pistone said the Bonanno family had 17 crews, and after Galante was killed two of the crews were disbanded and it's members were placed in other crews. That Just the FBI, The Bureau of Narcotics had an agent get close to John Ormento in the Lucchese crime family, during mid 1950s. He gave The Bureau of Narcotics these numbers in 1956, Anastasia 350, Bonanno 200+ Galante has a crew in Canada, Costello 400+ A crew on the West coast, Lucchese 240+ A crew in Los Angeles, and Profaci 160+ A crew in California Bay Area.

This: it's the only thing me and Ivey bump heads on, is that LE does sometimes get stuff very wrong, also you have respected guys in the know, who apparently don't know lol
I respect Raab too, as well as CApeci and ANastasia, but the word on this site is that Capeci is losing it and ANastasias on a money grab, sooooo.....
Do we disregard em?
Like I said I try to read a lot, then read into what I read lol...

Also, GIacomo I had no idea ALL the five families had a crew in LA at the same time, that's why I love this site...
I was going to comment on the number of guys in the Cali fams, but that explains a lot, I was baffled at San JOse having more members than say NEw ORleans, considering the large Sicilian population there, as well as that being like the original mafia family...
I agree with you on MAsseria, MAranzano was strong when he was at war, but all that Caesar shit woulda got him killed by maybe even BOnnano eventually...

Retrospect, that must be why they got so mad at bonnano trying to claim Cali for himself....

Yeah, like if it came from Ormento it has to be legit right? The fbn was the only agency on their shit;
You look at those numbers, it's like there is a whole bother five families we know nothing about, it's pretty interesting right?
Like how much do we really know?

San Jose did have a lot of members that came through Goosetown, with some of them staying. When Sebastian Nani of the Profaci family was deported, Vincenzo Figlia transferred to San Jose followed by Salvatore Cerrito a year later, the Ditri brothers brother in law transferred to San Francisco when Nani left. Tony Ditri transferred from the Bonanno family to San Jose in 1964, Daniel Ditri was not made till the 1970s into the San Jose family, but the west coast families had a lot of transplants. Keep in mind that there are a lot of family relations with these families. As for Bonanno in California, he had the bay area in his grip since 1946, he had a crew in Arizona and a crew in Santa Clara County, but I don't believe he had a crew in the Los Angeles area, but a couple of soldiers, most notably Antonio Bello who's son became a made man in the Los Angeles family, and it was Antonio who tried to get Frank Bompenseiro to kill Frank DeSimone and implicate Joe Bonanno in it. There was also a Bonventre who was a soldier and was to keep an eye on Bello. The most notable member is Charles Battaglia who was made in the Los Angeles family and transferred to the Bonanno family.

I'll ask again, did these numbers include the Montreal crew? It's stated in either the Sixth Family or Mafia Inc. (probably both) that the Bonannos had 150 members including Montreal in the early 80s. I'm not sure what sources were used for these figures and perhaps these were simply based on the 15 capos they had at the time (a capo originally being in charge of ten soldiers). I'll also have to add to my previous statement that another guy with Sciacca said the Bonannos had 100 members after which Sciacca said 180. Sciacca was the current acting boss at the time.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to total numbers for the families and think that they may have always had pretty much the same numbers. A number cap of 300 for the Genoveses and Gambinos and 150 for the three smaller families sounds believable to me. Yet the 180 members statement by Sciacca doesn't sound like being pulled out of thin air. Also I find it quite odd that according to D'Arco the Colombos were allowed to have more members than the Luchesses and Bonanno.

It could be that maybe Profacis prestige granted him a kind of seniority?
You know, a thought just occurred to me. Could it be that the larger numbers of made men in the past is like, directly proportionate to Lcn political corruption at the time?
If it's easier to make a payoff, it's easier to guarantee territory, easier to hold sit downs?
Just a thought...

Prestice in what exactly, olive oil? Profaci's family may have been the youngest and possibly an offshoot of the Gambinos. As for seniority, he was of the same age as the other bosses and nothing special compared to them. A decade before he became boss he was a merchant selling fruit.

In the Donald Trump smoking gun papers Carmine sessa who flipped in 93 said that the colombos in 1991 had exactly 100 guys. So I wonder today if even with probaly 25 of them in prisons if there's still 100. Sonny fransese was inducted guys in groups of 6 when he was on the street then the guy deleo inducted like 7 more if there sticking to there 100 cap. But since 1991 I'm guessing 20 guys flipped and the rule was you can't replace a rat or a guy who got whacked you maybe there cap is 80?

i think the amount of colombos on the street would be around 80-90 made guys

They weren't saying the Gambinos were down to 10 or 12 crews. They said 10 or 12 crews out of the 21 in the family were fully functioning in the years immediately following Gotti's conviction. Gravano did a lot of damage, including help convict 7 Gambino captains. Those other crews didn't vanish but they were in a state of disarray and not functioning fully for a time.



Like I said before, 180 members in the 1950s and 1960's is believable if you go with the higher end estimates.

150 in the early 1980s seems high for that time period. You'll notice that the figures I posted above were after the death of Sciascia when the Rizzutos were said to have broken off from the Bonannos. But even if that break never actually happened, or even if we do not include the Montreal crew in the figures above but add them now, it still doesn't come to 150.

100 members may have been the number of members at that time but not the max the family could have. The family has had 16 members flip by my count. In 2004, there were 112 known members and more recent estimates have been around 100 or so. I don't think their cap is below 100, let alone 80.

Massino was considered the top boss in the late 1990s and early 2000s basically by default. The others were in prison by then and he had seniority. But that certainly didn't make the Bonannos the strongest family.

As for Masseria, most historians seem to think he was the top boss before and during the war. In his case, that was probably due to the fact he headed the strongest family.

According to Bonnano Family Underboss Sal Vitale there were 150 members and a almost a thousand associates...also that there were 18 made members of the Montreal Crew....this is direct from testimony...nobody can question the veracity of his statements he was the underboss and go to guy of the boss for realistically almost 17 years


I don't ever believe the gambino family was ever less than 20 crews. ..that was a newspaper article.mikey scars said 22 capos and that was in 2002....

Massino was top boss but his family was never the richest or largest...gambino and Genoese had them beat,probably luccheses to cause of construction and jersey.... What they did have gooing was everybody was very wealthy. .....coppa and Lino were capos on the street for almost 20 years straight. Massino, Vitale and spero ran that family from 86 on......

I don't recall Vitale saying 150 members. But knowing you as I do, either way you'll go with 150 because it's the bigger number. Meanwhile, you'll ignore that Frank Lino said the family had 12 captains, 100 soldiers, and 200-500 associates in 2003. The list of 111 Bonnano members released in 2001 was a year before the first guy would flip but I doubt there were 40 members flying under the radar. And then by the 2006 Basciano case wiretaps showed the family had less than 100 soldiers. The figures I posted seem to correlate with each other while 150 is an outlier. And if there were 150 when Vitale flipped in 2001, where did the rest go by 2003 or 2006?

Ivy probaly right about 100 they got all bk and Staten island for recruits and they probaly have more guys in prison then any family.Carmine and Allie have alot of clout. And agree hay if massino was as powerful as Peter gotti why wasn't he get the Brooklyn dock ila money and all them other unions. Fucking hate Arron Rodgers. I did read vitale saying in court they had 150 guys and tried to get more but Peter gotti said were you finding these guys and said no. That's when they said replace dead guys and 2 at xmis or so.

Even if Vitale did say 150 members you have to weigh it against...

2001 - FBI releases a "no contact" list of all 111 known Bonanno members for Robert Lino.

2002 - 100+ members cited by prosecution in Graziano case.

2003 - Frank Lino testified the family has 12 captains, 100 soldiers, and 200-500 associates.

2006 - wiretaps in Basciano case reveal the family has less than 100 soldiers at that time.

2009/2013 articles - 100 to 115 members cited.

See this is exactly why I get confused:
It's like is it a commission, or really a dictatorship like maranzano?
Cause you see a weak boss, but in AHistory of the Sicilian cosa nostra,it says PRofaci
Was instrumental in mediating a truce between the Grecos from Ciaculli and Giardini, also close to the Villabate boss...
He's older than BOnnano at the time, that's what I meant by seniority, plus their kids married right?
Just like Carlos and LUchesses?
Plus he's got family married into the Detroit family, and BOnnano is family with the Maggadino family.
So what I wonder is how does a COmmision meet go at this time period, I didn't even MEntion MAngano.
Profs I had an airport on his estate if I'm not correct, that's kinda crazy isn't it? Like that a lotta olive oil lol

Also true on the fruit merchant thing, but it took CApone even fewer years to become what he was sooo....

If the Bonannos had 180 members in 1965 then 150 in the early 80s correspond pretty well, especially because new members were made after 1975. You also have to take it into context; 130 members in New York and 20 in Montreal. That does sound believable does it not?

CabriniGreen, New Orleans crime family is unique as well as the city. If you dig around New Orleans records and residents from the 1904 to 1930 records, you will find many well known members of other crime families had passed through there and one out of eight of them had stayed in the city for a number of years before moving to other cities in the states, and one out of five those were know as Men of Honor while living in the city. New Orleans was a huge port of entry for them, so you will see hundreds of names, especially during the time of Bendito. The west coast had a bunch of people from New Orleans. All five of the New York families had members from New Orleans that were known as Men of Honor while living in New Orleans, Brooklyn and the Bronx had the most concentration of those members, and three New York families that had a lot them were the Bonanno, Mangano, and Profaci families. Gagliano had Silver Dollar nephew in his family. Like I said New Orleans is unique.

i doubt the 5 families are the size as reported

unless they're just making people for the sake of having numbers

the five familys have a massive recruitment pool i can name tons of young guys getting there button not like chicago or detrot were they are struggling for young guys.

guys 30s and 40s running crews not like chicago or detroit


as FBI agent jack falcone said in his book when he went undercover in the gambino family

he is going to know alot more than you about the size of the mob as he was in the mob for 2 years undercover


"for every capo they take down a soldier steps up for every soldier a associate steps up every associate a wannabe steps up"





five familys are doing the best since the 90s

The FBI figures for the families since the 1980s have been very largely accurate and consistent. There's a world of difference between the recruiting pool in NY and those elsewhere.

Once again, GReAt info GIacomo, I think Ivey is pretty much right on this one, also I think the families are in a renaissance period of sorts, this might be the best run they have had since the heyday of the 80s?

The conflicting reports do make it hard to nail down accurate numbers, Sonny the BOnnano numbers do seem accurate, even though they contradict the BOnnano turncoats, I think you are right on the Canadian made men.
Also, I had a thought, the get numbers of guys in the 50s, and esp the 60s it seems, maybe ALL the families were making unauthorized initiations?
And all the guys that weren't vetted were basically shelved?
Pure speculation but a thought...

Pittsburgh's heyday was after 1937 when Frank Amato Sr took over. By 1946, state police and local law enforcement had Pittsburgh between 45-55. Pittsburgh has always operated very similar to a Camorra where they assigned bosses to each area. High ranking associates were held in very high regard and some of them were actually better earners than some made guys. By 1950, Pittsburgh had these guys assigned to their respected territories:

Frank Amato- Braddock, East McKeesport
John LaRocca- Pittsburgh (city limits)
Kelly & Sam Mannarino- New Kensington
Tony Ripepi- Fayette & Washington Counties
Mike Genovese- East Liberty, Bloomfield Ave
Joe Regino- Altoona/Johnstown
Joe Pecora- Penn Hills-then moved to Chester, WV along Rte 30
Charlie Imburgia- Warren, OH (Trumbull County)
Paul Romeo- Youngstown, OH
Vincenzo Tripodi- Steubenville,OH (Cosmo Quattrone was his #2)
Jack DeSarro- East Liverpool, OH
Louis Volpe- Turtle Creek
Salvatore Marino- Sharon, Hermitage & Farrell, Pennsylvania
John Scardina- Lawrence County, PA

Each one of these guys had their own crews of made members and the members had about 10 associates each. Each one of these guys made sole decisions in their territory without the brass sticking their beaks in.

The real powerhouses in the LaRocca Family were certainly Kelly Mannarino and his brother Sam but most people overlook Joe Pecora, often referred to by friends as Jo Jo. Nobody made a move along Rte 30 withour Joe knowing about it. People could talk about No Legs Hankish all they want but Paul couldn't take a shit without letting Jo Jo know about it. Our local guy, Jimmy Tripodi, ruled with an iron fist. His # 2 man was Cosmo Quattrone, owner of Rex Cigar store and the casino inside. Dean Martin got his start dealing black jack at Rex Cigar. Tripodi & Quattrone were Calabrese and were tied in with the Youngstown Calabrians as well as tied to Tony Milano (Calabrian) in Cleveland and Antonio Ripepi (Calabrian) in Pittsburgh.

What made you change where you listed for Joe Pecora moving to Wheeling?

After I signed on, I saw that I typed Wheeling because the LaRocca's controlled Wheeling but forgot Joe was in Chester down the road.

Sciacca has to be wrong about the size of his own family, because D'Arco said the maximum size for the Bonannos was 125-140. It's common knowledge that the Bonnano cap was that size. Maybe the common knowledge wasn't known by the Bonanno boss.

Absolutely. D'Arco's word is final. As boss of bosses from the early 1900s up until he turned rat, he was in the thick of everything. He knows more about your grandmother than you do. He probably has a picture of D'Aquila and Maranzano having luch together, and he knows where Hoffa's body can be found.

All kidding aside, no one besides D'Arco has ever mentioned such a specific number cap for the families. And a family boss always has more knowledge about his own borgata than an outsider.

Fair enough. However I was always under the impression that John LaRocca succeeded Frank Amato Sr. as Boss of the Pittsburgh LCN.
Then Michael Genovese succeeded John. Thus they were more than just territorial Bosses. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also did Joe Pecora deal directly with Paul Hankish or did he have one of his soldiers deal with Paul? If so: Do you know who that was?

That is correct. The overall boss was Amato, then LaRocca and then Mike G. However, the LaRocca family operated where a Capo was the boss of their own territory. Joe never dealt with anybody personally unless he was to throw you a beating. Zottola was a long time loyalist of Mr. Pecora so I would assume Zottola dealt with No Legs. Speaking of No legs, his son died not long ago, was found dead in his Scott Township, PA home. He was a nice guy but got caught up with Porter and company back in the early 1990's. My friend's dad dated No Legs wife after he died, I think her name was Pat. A real looker in her early 50's, I could only imagine what she looked like years ago. She would walk into the Lightning Rod Club and guys would jerk off in the bathroom. If No Legs only knew, he was a jealous monster with her and would have chopped somebody's head off for even having fantasies about that broad.

It still surprises me that Paul got away for so long with the murder of Melvin Pike, one of the biggest racketeers in all of Western PA for 30 years out of Uniontown. Mannarino and Pecora went belistic when Melvin was killed, especially since it was done in front of his daughter after her gymnastics class back in 1978. His area straddled the WV border and Hankish wanted his gambling empire. Hankish hired Robert "Codfish" Bricker, a notorious hitman for hire. Chucky Porter was sent by Mannarino to find out who and what happened and Porter shot Bricker at point blank range in the face and he didn't die. He got convicted a few years later but it didn't come out until 1990 that Hankish in fact arranged for the Pike murder.

So far - so good ;-)

The first time I met Paul was at his ranch house in Wheeling. Zebo told me not to look at his wife. As soon as she answered the door, I knew why. Then Paul came over on a car mechanics crawler. Believe me, my eyes never looked up the whole time we were there.

BTW: Zebo was Jo Jo's go-between.

Friend of Henry...now I get it. Zottola was a charachter, I remember a green cadillac el dorado he had ( I believe it was dark/polo green) with tan leather interior. He was a guy who could lose his shit at the drop of a hat. He used to stop in at Jackie DeSarro's ITAM club in East Liverpool for pickups back in the early to mid 1990's. I was a regular there (not for the booze, but for the action and the whores:)

If you came from Steubenville, all you had a penchant for was gambling and whores. All kinds of whores, black, white, oriental and my personal favorites, red heads:) And I can assure you that Paul controlled all the whores from Wheeling/Steubenville and parts of Western PA.

Let me ask you, did you know Silvio Pinciaro, longtime East Liverpool bookmaker and very close to Jimmy Tripodi? They called him Birdy and he had aguy named Tree that would drive him. Tree was about 6'8, 325 pounds and was a former Right Tackle for PITT. Anyhow, tree carried a blackjack with him and thoroughly enjoyed using it. Long story short, I had no idea who he was one evening and I was in the phone booth outside and he needed to use the phone. Anyhow, he kept knocking on the booth and I called him a guerilla and told him to take a fucking hike...needless to say, the window of the booth shattered and he cracked me a few times over the head with the black jack. Once Birdy saw it was me, he came flying out and gave Tree a tongue lashing becuase I was Stogie's guy.

I did know one guy from Youngstown, his name was Larry Garono...a real lackey. Once the Strollo guys took over, they were shaking everybody down for a larger percentage of the take. They were very unreasonable with Jackie DeSarro and his Youngstown partner, Cyrak. Prato was always fair with his operators and everybody made money, the new brass were greedy and liars. I remember Zottola stopping by the ITAM one evening and Stogie was complaining about the new brass and Zottola seemed very aware that they had some serious issues in Mahoning County with the new leadership but from my understanding, Zottola's take increased ten fold after Porter got rung up and he became Mike G's guy. At the end of the day, none of them gave a fuck about anything as long as there was a fat envelope with Ben Franklin's in it.

Your description of Larry Garono, Jeep, is spot on. I never held Lenny in high regard. Michael was so concerned after Joey got hit that he assigned Zebo to look after him. No, Lenny didn't order the hit on Joey.

As you may know, Lenny rolled on his lifelong friend, Bernie The Jew, after he paid Bernie to wack Ernie Biondillo.

I knew Jackie, Cyrak and 2 gun Jimmy. Jimmy was an "Old School" Boss and everyone made money. I actually use to play poker with Jimmy. He never saw a card he didn't like ;-)

Is it safe to assume that you recognize my avatar?

I'm sorry Friend of Henry, I am not online during the weekends, the old lady told me I couldn't demoralize her if I was online Saturdays and Sundays, so I chose to close up shop during my weekends

Sure, I recognize your avatar. I used to see Henry every Thursday (well most of them anyways) in the late 1980's into the early 1990's when he would stop by a longtime Steubenville restaurant called Capri Sausage and Meatball, referred to as Capri's. It's been a staple in Steubenville for well over 35 years and the tavern was always known to have action. One of Jack DeSarro's guys ran the joint, longtime bookmaker and numbers operator. Other than Jack, he had the largest book in the area. I'd rather not mention his name because I know his son has been on these sites before.

I remember the trial in Youngstown, DeSarro was indicted back in the 1990's as well with Cyrak for promoting illegal gambling and operating an illegal numbers lottery. I never met Mr. Lenine Strollo but I did know his brother Danny from Campbell, my niece is married to the gentleman who lives next door to Danny. Danny was always the gentleman, I couldn't say a bad word about the guy. Plus, my niece's husband works alot of nights out at GM so having Danny next door certainly makes my niece feel safe, even if he is around 85/86.

Prato I remember very well, my wife and I used to eat at the Calla Mar a few times a month in the mid 1980's and have been to many weddings there. He had an uncle or a cousin that was said to be "the man" in Youngstown for many years. I believe his name was Dom or Don. He was tight with our two local guys, Jimmy Tripodi and Cosmo Quattrone. All the Calabrians stuck together in those days. I remeber very well when Tripodi was 87 years old and his wife had died and he took his .38 and put a bullet in his mouth either around Christmas day or just before Christmas day out in his garage in 1987. I lived 5 houses down from the Tripodi's. He was close with Tony Pep from Pittsburgh and to the Milano's in Cleveland.

I did not know Bernie but I knew Ernie, everybody knew Ernie. He was an affable guy but always went overboard with the booze. I knew his daughter back in the early 1990's very well, I met her up in Youngstown at a campus bar called Pal Joey's. She was a hot ticket back in those days but I haven't seen her in probably 20 years at least. Very classy as well if my memory serves me correct, she certainly knew how to refuse any advances.

Speaking of Garono, I know a guy that is referred to as Big Gary, he had a beef with Garono back in the mid 1990's and we were shooting dice at the Greek Coffee House in Youngstown, Big Gary worked there from time to time. Garono came in that night to collect the halfway take and an argument ensued behind closed doors...needless to say, when Garono came walking out, he was white as a ghost. One of the guys told Garono that if he wasn't Mr. Strollo's sidekick, Big Gary would have torn you part limb for limb. Garono had an answer for everything.

Out of curiosity, do you know anybody in Niles? Malvasi ring a bell? I miss the old man, he was a class act. My wife is from Niles, so I've listened to the stories my father in law would tell me about Niles, big gambling town I'm told. The only reason I knew Malvasi was because of the restaurant. My father in law used to play cards and eat great food in the back room with Malvasi and a few others. I remember they had very good hot peppers in oil and excellent Veal Scallopini.

It is interesting that Jack Falcone, FBI agent, blasts the accuracy of FBI charts in his book. Ivye, what are your thoughts on that?

Hopefully you're not asking my opinion. I only know/speak from my own experiences. I'm not a researcher.

Same here. For the most part, I only post what I personally believe to be true. That's why you'll rarely see me post outside of my comfort zone of New York, mainly in threads related to the Bronx and East Harlem.

I would agrea with whoever posted they make guys probaly for numbers. They kinda did that for awhile. Strength n numbers. Al d'arco the perfect example 33 yrs ago he didn't make his bones wasn't a earner but did as he was told and was related to another made guy. The feds can't what the mob guys anymore. There not killing like all the dirt bags home grown terrorist. They need to watch for the next fucking Sandy hook that's sick. If the want to induct 5 10 guys into a family every year in NYC or even the lil families outside whose gonna no.

I think if we're talking about the heyday for most of the Families it's going to be right at the end of Prohibition. The New York Families did a lot of recruiting for the Castellammarese War and during the period when selling alcohol was illegal and they were making money like it was water. The numbers would have been at their highest then, shrinking due to attrition.

Chicago had higher numbers back then not only for those reasons, but because the Outfit absorbed several other Families. The Outfit absorbed the Chicago Mafia, Chicago Heights and Gary, Indiana. Rockford and Milwaukee also absorbed a lot of Chicago Mafia guys who didn't want to work under Capone. Again though, the membership roster shrunk as members died and weren't replaced, and many of them weren't active so were members in name only. So it's possible that up to the 1950s Chicago had around 300 members. For the Gambinos and Genoveses during the period following Prohibition I've seen numbers as high as 700 or so. I'm not vouching for the accuracy of those numbers, only that the numbers peaked during that period.

If they just made guys for the numbers they'd be making them left and right in NY with no cap. But they do have a cap and can only make guys to replace those who have died, plus two more at Christmas time.

And the feds seem to be able to keep tabs rather well. I imagine the same sources who give them info on the current leadership of a family also tell them when someone has been recently made. Heck, even Internet mob watchers like us have fairly extensive lists of recent ceremonies.

I don't think they know about every single member but I doubt more than 10% of a family at most is flying under the radar.

What was the max number of made men allowed for Buffalo?

I'm not sure what their max was but the feds had the family at 45 members in 1989. In 2006 the feds had themy at 23 members. And several have died since then.