Panel discusses state of the American Mafia

Crime experts Christian Cipollini, Alex Hortis, and David Amoruso of Gangsters Inc. will take part in a panel discussion on the topic: “Is the American Mafia finished?” this coming Thursday evening 8pm EST, September 10th.

Join us: http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/bl...-american-mafia

I look forward to listening to the discussion although we already know the answer - yes and no depending on what/where you're talking about.

The American Mafia is finished in many parts of the country. But it remains in the Northeast, Chicago, and South Florida.

I want to see what they say about American Lcn and Ndrangheta, Cali, and what new rackets or industries they might be trying to enter...

You're right, Ivy. The correct answer is yes and no. The yes being for another few generations in the Northeast, Chicago and the Sunshine State. The no being just about everywhere else, with Detroit being a possible wildcard.

But these are three young guys who DREAM about cutting their teeth when Capeci and Anastasia did. So I GUARANTEE that they inflate the statistics and numbers to suit their own agendas (which is selling books, and pushing their blogs and websites for advertising space).

But hey, that's business. I'm a capitalist. I have no problem with a guy making a buck, as long as it's not through selling fairytales.

Agreed, but I'm not even convinced Chicago has enough of a bench to last a few more generations. I wouldn't be surprised if it's unviable in just a decade or two.

They will always have gambling

But it's the NY construction, trucking And NJ garbage , port that keeps some strong for the moment

Actually bumped into a former garbage czar yesterday down shore

Eventually most of the italian lcn stuff will go the way of the outlaw cowboy, at least in the US.
The decline of the italian american neighborhood has just as much to do with LCN's decline as law enfircements crackdown. As of now, the only people exposed to LCN are difect family members. They no longer have neighbirhood guys influencing you ger guys. Theres also too much money to be made legally nowadays. Crime is a waste of time.

there will always be organized crime always. The mob in new york and other familys on the east coast are not going anywhere any time soon and i have been hearing since the 90s other groups are going to move in on the mob all that bullshit truth is little has changed last ten years there are still young guys joining the life dont know why its not the 80s anymore but they are even if they are not good quality there is still young guys willing to join the life so i dont think anyone should be wondering when it will end on the east coast because it could be a long time before there are any real changes

Now chicago and Detroit they will be the next to go they are already declining detroit had to cut down to four capos recently after another crew became too small and alot of those guys are getting old there is still some middle age guys and the odd young kid but 30 years from now they wont be here

Chicago has some young guys but i dont think there is enough for them to be any sort of force every year they get weaker they will be here next 20 30 years then it will all end

else where the mob does not exist that means kanas city which is now basically one crew which has a book and a fence thats it its over for them

well, as long as you have a Sicilian mafia, you are going to have an American mafia. Why? Because...

1)Sicilians are big in heroin,

2)America is one of the largest mass markets for every type of good...including narcotics,

3)the Sicilian mafia will want to deal (drugs) with Italians in America instead of some other group who they don't know as well and cannot trust as well,

4)the "American" mafia will never allow the Sicilian mafia to inport drugs domestically without going through the Americans first. So the idea that Americans will drop out completely from the drug game and let the Sicilians rake in all the dough is inconceivable,

Therefore all of the drug ports will stay active with Cosa Nostra activity: New York, Florida, Detroit (Lake St Clair, which borders Canada), Chicago (Lake Michigan which leads out to Canada), *ETC*. WHY? Because it's their nature. They could never stand to see another organized crime group take over the ports they control or partly control. There's just too much money involved.



(I have used Sicilian members of the underworld to make my point, but as we know, in Europe, and in Italy in particular, the Sicilian mafia is not the sole ethnic based criminal organization.)

And Italian-Americans are the sole ethnic crime based organization in America? Have you seen the Port of Miami lately? It's a leper colony. And there's not a guy named Sal, Vinny or Tony within twenty miles of the place. And please don't tell me that all of those South American drug mules and importers are working for Italian-American crime families, or I'm going to break another fucking laptop.

As long as there's a Sicilian Mafia they'll be a Canadian-Italian Mafia. The American Mafia will hang around through bookmaking and shylocking, just like they always have. But now we're talking about quantity over quality, and therein lies the rub.

Please put the sociology and conspiracy theory books away. I'm begging you now .

LOL. OK I will.

Pizza, what's your opinion about this qualifier? I put it in there deliberately...

"or partly control"

Colombians have been producing super high quality heroin for awhile now, the Mexicans have stepped up opium production as well. The MExicans have been trying to make in roads into the European market, why I'm curious to see what if anything they have to say about the Calabrian moves into the American market, are they a counter to this?
Those ndrangheta arrest are interesting to me, cause the Calabrian strength was moving large loads of coke on the European market, at the higher euro rate, so why start up with distribution In New York? The most vulnerable aspect of the trade? Why was the GAmbino BOnnano arrest, like a cocaine supply to Europe operation, but the one in queens was a distribution/genovese thing? We're these the same ndrangheta groups, or like rival clans?
Was the queens operation a genovese response to the gambino, bonnano thing?
And that coke, was it going to Sicilians, like via Cali?
The rizzutos were like the main Italian narcotics facilitators for the Americas, was this an attempt to muscle in to that position?
It's something I hope SOMEONE can shed some kinda light on...

I feel like I gotta a mention, I think "drug port" when you consider these groups have fleets of planes, and subs and tunnels and probably fuckin drones pretty soon, might be a little marginalized in today's world, not completely, but there are alternate routes...

I would think most of the stuff comes from the "border", not so much the ports, unless you are shipping OUT of the country, which is why the gambino/bonnano arrest was so interesting to me...

Ooh, ok wait, the queens operation was an " export" operation, not a distribution one, that makes more sense...

Yeah, see the thing Alfa, any coke coming into the U.S. To be consumed by Americans is coming thru the border, meaning Mexican cartels. I'm sure they can truck this shit wherever they need to go in the U.S.
And then you got heroin, if European, it's coming from Afghanistan, or like Southeast Asia, this side of the world, it's Colombian or Mexican, with the Colombian being the higher grade. And they would be using their own routes along the border, not really the port of NEw YOrk, again unless it's being shipped OUT of the country.
This is why I really hope they shed some light on the calabrians, also if you believe Roberto SAviano (and I mean, why not when he has a standing price on his head) the Sicilians have, since like the early 2000s, had to go through either Naples clans or recently the Calabrians for even heroin.
Rizzutto really left a void in Italian Amrican crime, are they holding on, or have they been muscled out?

Good post, Cabrini.

The Mexicans, other South Americans, and various European ethnic groups don't NEED American CN to bring drugs into this country. And, for the most part, American CN doesn't give a shit. All they want is a little taste, which they'll make on a mid-level distribution level.

American CN counts on gambling, shylocking, their White Collar specialties (construction, trucking, garbage, etc.). And THEN the mid-level distribution of drugs, if that.

Alfa's reading too much into the traditional Italian groups (whether it be the Mafia, Camorra or the 'Ndrangheta) doing business with their AMERICAN counterparts. Does it happen occasionally? Sure. But American CN needs to count on the aforementioned scams and White Collar businesses to survive.

@ Alfa: These aren't the Illuminati or a bunch of boogeymen. These are only street guys. STREET guys. Not Don Corleone. They're just men. And I'll leave it at that because you're such a brilliant historian. But this is where we get into that intellectual vs. "been there, seen that" debate, so I'll stop now to avoid a needless argument.

Bookmaking + Shylocking + White Collar and legitimate investments = The potential future of American CN. They're not depending on partnerships with Italian National groups.

In other words, it's working right now. And if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. This is, of course, rhetorical. But go ask Barney or Stevie if they give a shit about that pipeline. See what kind of look you get.

the gambinos are very big in drugs though i think cali has been linked to the pipeline and celfeau is a ex drug dealer himself

I said there were exceptions, and they're certainly one of them. But, in general, I was speaking overall.

Fair enough. You might be right. You could say my viewpoint is academic and based on a top down analysis (of mostly store bought books). Yours is more experiential, and based on a bottom up analysis. The problem with top down is that it takes time to make out the details. It's mostly just theory and large assumptions.

I notice you did say that American CN likes a taste of the trafficking trades these days, but they are not locking down the borders. I can agree with that. I used pretty strong language earlier, so strong you'd think each major port of entry had an Italian Jon Roberts operating there. Maybe I went too far because if we are trying to identify the source of a problem, we want to imagine it's every possible hiding place.

ok understood

I haven't read much on Rizzuto so I can't venture to answer that.

You mentioned Afghan (opium poppies) and European trafficking. You also mentioned a few points of entry, like the Southern border, and maybe the Canadian border. What is your opinion on where the Euro/Afghan heroin is coming in (to the US)?

I think it's New York, among other places.

I'm sure New York still gets its fair share. But in my opinion, it has to be the Port of Miami. Between the proximity to the Islands and South America, coupled with the DOJ reports and FBI press releases whenever they break a new record for what they find down there, it's hard to believe that the other Ports see as much action.

But that's just speculation on my part, Alfa. And you know me, I hate speculating. Like you said, I'm more of a bottom to the top kind of guy (not that I ever touched an illegal drug in my life, I'm just going by what I've seen and heard from a firsthand point of view).

The families that are left...by that I mean the big 10. Are the strongest they have been since the early 1990s
Things are good for them......all you need to know is the last time the boss of the gambino family got the big pinch,Rico for life was 2002 with Peter gotti,that was 13 years ago
A boss hasnt gotten life in Philadelphia in 20 years!

Thnx pizza, I'm glad to see you didn't hold my earlier silly rant against me, lol, a real gentle man, it's appreciated...

Oh you would like the Sixth Family, there are some awesome numbers in there;
They have the Rizzutos dealing with Asian gangs like THe Big Circle Boys for heroin, IRish West End Gang for hashish, if I'm not mistaken. Hells Angels for distribution, basically they dealt with anyone, and always huge amounts, they were arranging 5000 kilo loads of cocaine, several hundred kilos of hashish at a time.
I really think outside the cartels, no one was bigger in drugs this side of the Atlantic, like not even close, I'm interested to know if they still have so dominant a position;
Seems like Pizza said, the New York families will take a cut off the top, easy money and the lowest risk, it's just from those arrest I couldn't tell if ndrangheta was trying to make inroads into America, or if the GAmbinos/BOnnanos were trying to make inroads into Europe, (euro= more money), if the genovese got into it just to keep the status quo, if the Mexicans were trying to compete with ndrangheta, or vice versa, lotta unanswered questions...

PB hit the nail on the head and I couldn't have said it any better.

You can read any recent DEA national drug threat assessment or local HIDTA report. At this point, generally speaking, the Mexican DTOs are the dominant drug group in just about every area of the country except the Northeast and South Florida. They may even rival the Colombians in South Florida now. The last threat assessment I read, before they stopped due to funding few years ago, had the Mexicans the dominant drug trafficking group as far north as the Philadelphia/South Jersey area and they were quickly expanding more into the New York and New England regions.

Following the end of the Pizza Connection in the mid-1980s, that was also the end of the Italians being at the top of the drug trade. By then, cocaine (which they never had control of the supply) had probably eclipsed heroin in popularity. Ever since, the Mafia has been marginalized.

The NY families certainly continued to be significant players in narcotics, and remain so today, but what gives the mob its strength and staying power - even more than being at the top of the drug trade - is its diversity. It isn't a one trick pony like the strictly drug trafficking groups. Take away narcotics and many other criminal enterprises and gangs would cease to exist or at least lose their far and away biggest source of income.

My understanding is that Afghan heroin for the most part DOESNT come to the U.S., it's consumed in Europe, any trickle off would definitely be NEw York though, since a lot of that trade is controlled by like Albanians, they have a presence in New York, so they would have a ready made network to move it. But yeah, the Afghan stuff is gonna be like RUssian oc,
Albanian, and well you know Italians, other ethnic groups as well.

Yeah, but it's even more than that; The Mexicans are showing up in Costa Del Sol in Spain, it's a huge corrupt port, lots of gangs are based there. They are showing up in Peru, at the actual proccessing centers for cocaine.
Italian BOsses that have had historic connections in Colombia in direct contact with the source are finding it impossible to AVOID doing business with the Mexicans, they are becoming THAT entrenched, but I don't know if it's true of the Canadian market..

Even after the Colombians and Mexicans started refining their own high grade heroin, there has always been some heroin coming from the Middle East and South East Asia. Chinese, Nigerians, Albanians, and others. But it's a relatively small part of the heroin trade.

The Chinese actually had about a decade or so - mid 1980s to mid 1990s - where they were on top of the heroin trade on the East Coast with their "China White." After the fall of the Pizza Connection and before the Colombians and later Mexicans took over.

Yup, Nigerians forgot them, and how I forgot Vietnamese is beyond me they got the west coast...

Yup, spot on. Forgot about the huge, um forgetting the names, Ghost shadows and Flying dragons? I think in Chinatown? Makes sense they would be huge in heroin too, good mention...

And those Big Circle Boys I mentioned earlier, were a huge Chinese gang, dealt direct with the rizzutos...

The Rizzuto clan hasn't been muscled out of anything. The death of the elder Rizzutos DID leave a void, but theres been reports of the new leaders conducting sitdowns with Calabrians. Either way, whether their bringing it in themselves or are forced to work with the Calabrians, Canada's Sicilian crime bosses and their groups are still in the drug game most likely.

+1

I agree 100% PB. As long as someone is willing to place a bet there will be someone willing to take the bet, especially when a book may give them credit. That's why I think legalized gambling in Jersey won't make a huge dent in most of the books.

Nigerians seem to be overlook at times.