Could Gotti speak fluent Italian?

I just wonder how many of these second generation bosses and Skips could speak the language.

Sal

No. But he could burp the alphabet.

No joke, seriously.

Does anybody know for sure.....

I am 99% sure that he could only speak a few words and that he couldn't form a sentence in Italian.

I think you are probably right.

Probably only the curse words

Definitive NO.

He spoke Paulie Walnuts/Tony Soprano Italian. A minchia here, a mannaggia there, makes guys think they were born on the other side. Just like that episode of "The Sopranos" when they go to Naples thinking they're natives and make buffoons of themselves.

No, Period.

"Giovanni" Gotti

It's funny how they speak sometimes mixing languages:

Nick Civella: I think he is pazzo

Francesco Madafferi: Io sono fucking responsabile per la fucking Melbourne!

No, he couldnt. As the great joe coffey said about gotti had the vocabulary of a sailor and the IQ of a mothball lol

Born here?

Cali, some of the 18th Avenue kids.

Sally Larca (the father) was born here, spoke Italian fairly well. And that's rare because the Westsiders are the most Americanized. A few other guys.

Just like every other Italian family, the language got lost because our parents and grandparents wanted to better us and have us speak English first. Not like most Latinos and Middle Easterners who refuse to learn the language. I know THIRD GENERATION Puerto Ricans born in the Bronx that won't speak a word of English.

Now, there are some fine Puerto Rican people here in the Bronx. But wherever you come from, if you refuse to learn the language, get the fuck out. And I don't care who gets offended by that.

I think what many people don't "get" is that being an Italian American is a special culture all its own.

Its one that is neither European (like being FROM Italy) but its also not Wonder bread mayonaise and spagetti-o's either.

Its simply what it is. A hundred years ago a group of imigrants came to this country and still after all these years they try to embrace their heritage.Some try too hard though, this annoys me.
,
I'm with PB on the "Goomba" shit. I can understand Italian pretty well because I lived right next door to my grandparents until they died when I was well in my early 40's when they passed. I can say some sentances, but I would never pretend to know the language fluently by using certain words that most of us grew up with in front of real Italians from Italy. Also they spoke a heavy Naples dialect. I remember when the news would come on cable from Rome my Grandmother had to pay very close attention to understand it.

But there definitely is and Italian American culture that stands alone.

concur..

nah

coffey..hmm..i think him and john were in the same clas

Always found it strange that people call themselves Italian but can't speak the language


We have a lot of Italians in the UK and many are maybe now 2nd or 3rd generation Brits and they hardly bother with anything Italian and don't describe themselves as Italian

Must be more of an American cultural thing, I think its nice that people want to hold on to their history, but they should know the language if they feel that strongly about it..

I find Italian-Americans to be completely different to Italians characteristically and culturally.

I think those scenes in The Sopranos that feature Italian characters (Furio etc.) capture the dissonance pretty well.

americans of italian descent,, thats what i am..

I can say this about the Italian Americans: A hundred years ago our ancestors were busting their asses doing work that no one else would do. They were ridiculed and even spit on, having to walk in the gutter. Now look at the Italian Americans. They are living the American Dream that their grandparents and great grandparents worked so hard to achieve for them.

How can you NOT be proud of that!!!!

And I cannot speak the language fluently. So what? Nothing is wrong with that. It's understanding and appreciating what our ancestors had to go through to give us an easier life. That's what we celebrate along with the traditional feasts. Plus we have the BEST food...and of course the American Mafia. Try to TOP all that

Okay, you can take a deep breath and have a drink now. I think this thread is about the Italian-Americans who are fourth and fifth generation and overdo it. A twenty-year-old kid who grows up in Upper Montclair or Scarsdale and deliberately tries to sound like Vinny Barbarino. That's a fucking disgrace. Their parents should be drawn and quartered. You keep the CULTURE alive, not the STEREOTYPE. My two cents.

And I speak both dialects fluently. But as I've said, I lived in Cosenza for 18 months and visited close to a dozen other times. Not to mention staying with my Mom's people in Basilicata. So I'm a little different.

I gotta disagree Moe. Culturally, yes. Characteristically? No.

Quality post, Alfa. Four Stars from Pizzaboy.

Thanks PB.

I work in hospitality and meet tons of people from all over the world every day. So you begin to see patterns. All Europeans are not the same, and Italians from Italy are similar in many respects to Italian Americans. The Italians from Italy are very quiet people, but the men have very explosive tempers.

did you go to troppia..if spelled right

Tropea. That's a couple hours south of Lauropoli. Gorgeous beaches. We've been there for short stays. And then My Mom's people are in Matera, about two hours north of Lauropoli. Easy travel, even in a Fiat .

i have friends in Tropea..lol thanks

Fiat.

Fix It Again Tony.



Best acronym ever.

Same thing here in italy,there for example chinese that don't speak chinese but onlu italian and in some case the neapolitan.

Mario Balottelli is african but adopted by a northern,so when speak,you can hear the dialect.

For me if a person is born in italy,speak italian and was full integrated,this person is italian,this is called Ius Soli (right of the soil,is the right of anyone born in the territory of a state to nationality or citizenship.)

I'm also agree with Moe,a fifth or sixth generation italian is an american of italian descent,that all,or simple a white people.

For Gotti I doubt that know that the Italy stay in the Europe.




That in the 70s now in the 2010s the people accused Obama of sold the Chrysler to the italians.

lol never heard that

Nah, it was a loan. The Italians charged him four points a week, and the fucking moron thinks he got a deal .

America is just unique, who cares if Italian-Americans call themselves Italian? In America, if you say "I'm Italian" or "I'm Irish," it is typically assumed that you are talking about ethnicity. You'd have to specific that you were born in Ireland, for example, if you say you're Irish. That's my generation, anyway.

La lingua significa ancora molto per alcuni di noi seconda generazione degli Americani, Furio. Molto. E non dimenticate , ho vissuto a Cosenza per diciotto mesi.

Sorry, SC. Back to English. It was all innocent, anyway. I promise .

Yes SC I confirm,is an innocent phrase:



A year and a half in cosenza? my max was 15 days a year for four years, the first near London and the other in waterford, limerick and Dublin. I was underage and the travels were organized for the sons of public employees.

I understand from your treat you have fifty y or more (if I understand) when you went to Cosenza?

Yes, this was in the very early '80s, and I stayed in the very home where one of my grandparents was born in Lauropoli, so that helped. And of course, I've visited close to a dozen times since. My Mom's people are up in Matera. It's only a two-hour drive, so when we go back it's easy to visit both sides.

Thanks SweetP. I misunderstood.

Consenza. I knew that sounded familiar. I've been carrying their patron saint pic for almost 20 yrs in my wallet and I'm not even Calabrese. It was given to me. You never told me that's where your family is from. And--Mr. October, you never told me you could roll your rrr's like Caruso. Being able to speak the dialects FLUENTLY is impressive. So you can understand the Napuletan dialect too, JimmyR? That's 3 for you. I must give you 3 meows for that Meow Meow Meow or Rrrrrrrrrrrrrr Rrrrrrr Rrrrrr

If you are a fourth generation Italian-American then you really don't care much about the language or culture which is a shame. My cousins couldn't be bothered with any of it. They're only in it for the food and family part. I am the ONLY one in my family of 4th gen who cares about that type of stuff. It's probably because I'm the oldest great grandchild and spent the most time around the 1st and 2nd generation who spoke mostly Italian. I learned the language BUT not enough to say I can speak it well. I can speak much better Spanish than Italian.


You're a little different, that's for sure. Oh Daddy, hey, You're the King! Big Daddy, you make the Scene!! Baby, You're the BoSS!!
(I bet you know where I got that from, see if you can guess it right)

Now back to John Gotti being fluent in Italian
I'm embarrassed just thinking about him trying to speak Italian. My best guess is he probably butchered the language just like my father did.

My father is 3rd gen so he could understand Italian and should be able to speak it right? Nope not him. When he tried to speak it he'd butcher it OR he'd use words that my great grandpa made up.
He would excuse himself from the table and say something crazy like:
Va a un bacahassa. (He doesn't even use the right verb conjugation) plus that's not even an Italian word; he sounded tacky and vulgar.
He's saying I'm going to the BACKHOUSE
There used to be a backhouse before they had the bathroom in the house. My grandparents really should have taken the time to teach him the right way but they said they wanted him to speak English not Italian.
I'd tell him please don't try to speak your crazy Italian language when we'd be around the ICF older members who spoke it fluently. Save that stuff for only family. It was so embarrassing.

The title of the post shoukd really be : " did Gotti speak fluent english"

This is exactly my point.

You would never hear "bahhk-howsa" (spelling it phonetically) in Rome. But you'd hear it a thousand times a day in the Hurst.

Italian-AMERICAN is its own special culture. Yes Pizza is a second generation who understands the culture in both worlds (italy and the bronx) but what about all the Italians in South Philly, and all over parts of NY who only know a few words, but still eat macaroni every sunday and 7 fishes on Christmas. They might have the big rope chain with le corna or the little gold malocchio hand on it, sometimes right next to a crucifix (that always used to break me up....)

My point is we have our own culture that we created right here in this country. Its not the "real" Italy italian, its Italian American.

Spot-on, Salvi.

I heard Skinny Joey Merlino speaks fluent Italian though.....

co-sign. People birth culture, not vice versa.

this thread keeps bringing me back to the sopranos when paulie was in italy i laughed that entire episode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxT442bSG68

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phQ6fGd5QR8

lol baca houzza

this thread is a trip! my grandfather was from Campania and would use bacchousa a lot. I thought he made it up lol. One thing I appreciate about this site is all the little info about the culture that myself as a younger guy might not have known or known was so universal.

Op did I not hear the tapes- Gotti could speak fluent italian. He would sit there & utter the words "minchia, la cosa nostra, capodecima " all day long

"For La Cosa Nostra... A La Cosa Nostra!"

Its not La Cosa Nostra. Its Cosa Nostra. He just added an A before it.

I know, Bean. That's why I put in the quote and unquote, I was quoting him.

Sorry Clean.

I doubt it, aside from Joe Ligambi and Chickie who are older and probably first generation I doubt anyone in the Philly Mob can speak Italian.

One thing is it's probably harder for Americans of Italian descent like John Gotti to learn or speak Italian than it is others.

I'd say Gotti was dyslexic and or couldn't read or write English, let alone Italian - similar to a lot of mobsters back in the day.

I'd say it makes a difference if you have a strong family base growing up. IDK if Gotti had that. His father was absentee, right?

That was a great episode by the way

I was completely joking about Skinny Joey Merlino...

Haha, I think everyone knew, Dante.

correct

Anyone have any info on Gotti's father? Associated with OC?

Also Wiki states there were five brothers initiated (John, Gene, Peter, Richard and Vincent). Anyone have any info on Vincent? Still active? Crew? Photo?

It also states there were 13 siblings. Any info on what became of the rest? Any still alive?

Cheers

Here's an article on Vincent:
Banned thug Vincent Gotti finally made it to crime time, then feds nabbed him Seems to be the family foul-up in a family full of them.

IIRC from Capeci's book and elsewhere, Dad Gotti wasn't in the life and was a hard-luck type.

Great stuff LG. My thanks.

Appears he did some time. Arrested in 08 Gambino sweep he only got out this year.

Italians in America are a melting pot of their own. Most recently immigrated ones (who got here in 70s, 80s, 90s), and their progeny, don’t always feel like they have anything in common italian-culture-wise with the descendants of the earliest waves of the 1880s, 1910s, 20s and 30s. And it makes total sense.

There are plenty of 1st and 2 generation italians who speak the language fluently tho. They are a minority within italian-americans, sure, and the lack of general knowledge about them undermines the relevance of the later immigration waves.
Official US Govt. data shows that Italy still provided the largest number of european immigrants as late as the mid-1980s. Not saying that the 70s, 80s and 90s brought more italians than between the 10s and 40s, of course not, but the most recent waves have yet to be properly addressed even by the academia.

Not to mention mix-generation households, such as mine: dad’s michigan-born, mom’s italian-born. he speaks decent sicilian and so-n-so italian, mom speaks perfect italian and brescian. I speak native-speaker italian but both my sicilian and brescian are beyond embarrassment. Same thing with my cousins and their buddies in ny and nj, most of whom (mid-20s, early 30s) were born here to foreign-born parents. They are a minority within a minority I know, but they deserve to be mentioned.

Many of those who moved here post-1960 didn’t settled in large, segregated urban ghettos as the as pre-WW2 italians. It was a suburban immigration. Long island, non-ny centric new jersey, upstate new york, w. new york, w. pennsylvania, w. mass., ct., michigan townships, illinois and many other locales are filled of later immigrated italians. They are more of a less visible minority as opposed to the millions who lived squished one next to the other in tenements and slums between the late 1800s and early 1900s.




^ yes italian-americans have managed to grip on their culture and identity more so than the descendants of italian immigrants elsewhere.

Sometimes with odd outcomes, but it’s still admirable.

You and I are on the same page, LK. But when it comes to the Diaspora, and the Italian-American experience in general, we usually are .

right. it sure is.



this is a great compliment PB. much appreciated.

Since that I'm at it, I’m gonna go ahead and share my own stubborn ethnic-identification canvas for italian-americans®. remember that, as with everything concerning ethnicity and culture, it’s all extremely subjective. this is no gospel: I’ve met 1st generation italians who were completely detached from their culture and 4th generation guys who spoke better than me and travelled to Italy twice a year.
This being said:

1. ITALIANS
it should be quite self explanatory, but unfortunately it isn’t. By this I mean those who moved here after being raised there. I’d say anyone who got here after the age of 15/18. That's more than enough for Italy to mess you up.
There’s a misconception that paints Italy merely as a culture. It isn’t just that. Italy is also a nation, with specific borders, politics and whatever that comes with it. Living through the social repercussions of such local politics, economy and cultures is key to gather that sense of belonging to a localized territory. Therefore I don’t care if you speak fluent italian, have blue and brown passports and cook better than my granny…if you were raised in freaking Seattle you were not shaped by Italy. Is that simple.

Fictional media representative: Furio Giunta


2. ITALIAN-AMERICANS
now things get blurry. I firmly believe that ethnic identification goes well beyond language, which it’s sure important, but is not the sole representative factor that a specific ethnicity pours upon you. The upper midwest is an great example of this. Needless to say that only a fringe minority up there speaks norse, swedish, dane, finn or some other northern dialect. And most of those who do are mostly found in retirement homes anyway, getting ready for valhalla.
That said, it’s undeniable that scandianvian culture is still alive and breathing through different social representations and life experiences. How people relate to society, religion, family, food, folklore, gender-reletions, politics, and even criminality it’s all still dictated by those traces left behind by past generations. This is where italian-americans stand: if any of these subcultures had an impact on their personas, even if they were influenced by just a few, is enough to get rightfully associated with this broader umbrella group.

Fictional media representative: Tony Soprano


3. ITALIAN-LASTNAMED AMERICANS
this is when attrition took over after squashing them with the hammer of assimilation. Baring an italian last name or a lithuanian one makes no real difference for them … they’d mispronounce it anyway.
Neither italian nor italian-american cultures have influenced their upbringing and their heritage is brought up only when friends and neighbors come over for dinner and they show them old dusty pictures of unknown ancestors.
They might have some living relative who belongs to either subgroup 1. or 2., but they see him as some sort of exotic weirdo.

Fictional media representative: Dr. Bruce Cusumano

Wrong. And annoying.

The southern Australian cities of Melbourne and Adelaide have HUGE Italian expat populations. As does Toronto and Montreal in Canada. ALL these places are EXACTLY the same in their respective Italian communities regards keeping their Italian traditions alive whilst merging with their new 'Western' culture.
Italian Americans forget that when the great immigrations of the late 19th and 20th century were underway immigrants had a choice of the U.S., Canada or Australia..

The only thing 'unique' about Italian Americans is that like most other Americans who've never traveled further than a tank of gas, they think of themselves as being so. So before we all break out into chants of 'USA! USA! USA!' Remember there's a world out there which exists outside of the states.

I can almost see your point, Sonny. But the Italian-American community is just so unique that it almost can't be explained. Outsiders would call us pseudo-Italians. But Americans of Italian descent have created a subculture within an actual culture.

Now, at times, the differences between the subculture and the original culture can be extreme. But at other times, when people actually pour their hearts and souls into keeping their parents and grandparents customs alive, it can be both touching and beautiful. Christmas Eve is a good example.

Just like anything else, it depends on the individual. If you try too hard, you may come off as a cafone. But when the tradition is handed down properly, you'll come of as worldly.

Italian-Americans are the most unique of the hyphenated Americans. I don't know any other way to put it. Oh, I'd also like to add that I'm not sure how much gas it took, but I've been to more than a dozen countries.

Couldn't disagree more.

Expat Italian communities around the world are amazing in their commonality. Not their indervidualism. Italian Americans included. I've lived in Adelaide, Melbourne and Toronto and their respective Italian communities whilst differing in perhaps in who's momma makes the best sauce and an accent, the commonalities between the communities is startling.

Italians the world over are culturally if not by birth, Italians.

Addition:

To give a perfect example this clip by Canadian comedian Gerry Dee could've been written about Italian Americans, Italian Canadians or Italian Australians.

To a tee



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv3fkcCrn6k

What are you trying to say? I don't think really get it.

I mean, if you cared to read my post, you'll see that I was just talking about how people define themselves not as hyphenated, but as Italian or Irish. I was just talking about the way people refer to themselves

That was funny Tony!

And that's your right, Sonny. That's what message boards are for: to debate in a civilized fashion. Not to come online in a bad mood and pick fights because you had a bad day at the office.

And I should hope you don't think I'm talking about you, as our friendship extends way beyond this board. And I can't say that about too many guys here because of all of the recent drama and nonsense. But my friends (for instance, the guys who have my email address) know who they are.

This is the most recent in a long line of Gotti threads so I will just leave this here.



http://time.com/3840352/brad-garrett-memoir/

Interestingn post. Cheers Moe

Not Italian or Italian American but I used to work at an Italian deli and they used to tell me I was the boss of this...

that's correct!

Very common joke in Italian-American foodservice. Never gets old, either .

IMO - Speaking "fluent Italian" is very subjective... especially today.

There are so many original dialects from the regions of Italy, Sicily & Sardinia that were then brought over here with our immigrant ancestors.

We all have the language/memories we were raised around and exposed to, now top that off with following factors:

1. First, second and third generation Americans of Italian descent - all having their own dialect and interpretation.

2. Various geographical locations here in the US of Italian immigrants who settled and established mini regions of dialect and phrases.

Not my intent to agree or disagree with any of the previous posts and I get it that there are some obvious common pronunciation and key phrases. Throughout the years, some things could be added or subtracted, etc.

I just found it very interesting that you can say the same thing in Rome, Naples, Palermo and Sardinia but have several things so different from each region's dialect.

Not to mention Brooklyn... we all know they have their own language altogether!

wait, sonny doesn't get why toronto is indeed more similar to melbourne that to philly or nyc?

damn

prejudice blinds more effectively than muzzle flash

Sonny is a good guy so we left it alone.

Said the guy who's never been to either.
But you keep flying that 'I'm special/we're different' flag and yell down anyone else who knows different with 'prejudice'

you think you know different

when you clearly don't know enough

like gotti's italian

Anyone know if the chin spoke Italian?

Also did any of the guys on the commission case speak Italian?

Big Paul, fat Tony, Tom mix, the snake, Tony ducks, did they speak Italian

Gigante's mother either couldn't speak English, or spoke it badly, so I would be surprised if he wasn't conversational in Italian.

I'm almost positive Castellano spoke a good Sicilian dialect. Remember he was Carlo's cousin, they grew up together, if Carlo was fluent in his Sicilian tongue, I don't believe Big Paulie wasn't. Not to mention he dealt with the Gambinos from Cherry Hill and John Stanfa. Both liked to speak about their business and street dealings using the Sicilian language.

Good observation, Lurker.

Here's how I've always seen it: If your parents were born on the other side, you must be able to understand them. Now, how you actually speak Italian is a different story.

When I was growing up and a kid's Mother screamed something out the window for them, it was always in Italian. But when the kid replied, it was almost always in English.

Now, you remove them another generation or two, and that's how the language gets lost completely in most families.

The old time Miami Cubans had a great way of keeping the language....

They would speak nothing but spanish to the kids until they started school, by the time they were 7 years old they were fluent in both.

But even Cubans assimilate. My Wife (the oldest) and her brother both speak totally fluent Spanish, yet the youngest brother only "understands" can barely speak a word and hes a first generation American.

Sal