Whacked vs. Shelved in today's LCN

Gents, a few questions came to mind when I was watching Joe Postone talking about having to "watch over his shoulder." I personally believe he doesn't have to, could you imagine that headline? And the federal crackdown. Do you all think it is the thought of the danger, more so than the actual possibility of retaliation?

So my question is: How at risk is a wise guys life? I'd imagine a made guy is a little safer than an associate because it's still front page news when a wise guy is clipped, and they have to go through the commission, unlike an associate. But say someone fucks something up, steps on someone's toes etc... What's the chance of them actually getting whacked? Or would they just say, hey you're done with life get the hell outta here, and shelve them?

Thoughts?

the fear of being whacked in most cases is enough.

In most cases if you were to attack or insult an adminstration member you would likely get whacked but then again carmine scirdnada got shot and he settled for money but i think most cases you would get whacked raymond maranato got whacked for doing that randy pizzolo got whacked for being big mouth or like medish or like anthony zizzo or like Lawrence "Larry" Ricci or like Jerome "Jerry the Blade" Bianchette or like many others


and what are you talking about the last known commision meeting was in 2000 and they dont meet for murders with rats a common thing all ranks they are not going to tell guys in other families they dont trust about a murder they commited

think about it can you imagine bellomo asking a bonanno leader if they are allowed to whack there own familys soldier if a family wants to whack there guys they will do it they wont be looking for peoples permission

If a senior figure in a family wanted someone clipped (And I say senior figure because it's not a strict case of rank and file like it used to be) then they wouldn't have to ask many people, and they certainly wouldn't care about any commission. In fact the commission as has been known in relation to LCN is all but defunct. That's not to say bosses/higher ups of all the families don't meet, do business or consult, but it isn't the 70's.

And as gangstereport said, often the fear of violence is enough. If you ask 100 random people what do they think of when the hear of the Mafia then murder and violence will be mentioned a lot. A lot less people get killed these days but you are still dealing with people who will get rid of you if they deem it to be the right thing to do.

Make money, not headlines. I'm not sure who said that but it's true now as it ever was. The mob have a bit of breathing space, the feds aren't as deep up their asses as they once were due to terrorism and they would be stupid to start dropping bodies while they have it relatively good. The odd one will still fall in all likelihood, but the mob is evolving and changing and less violence is something that seems to be holding strong.

Not the commission, but possibly your boss and another boss of another family because of possible business interest. So a capo could order a hit on a soldier or an associate without approval? Or were you referring to maybe underboss or street boss?

No a capo could not order a hit without permission they would need the boss to give the go ahead but not other familys leaders. The Genovese family are not going to tell anyone if they are whacking there members or any family really. It generates publicly when a hit goes down but they care what each family does brings heat of that particular family

The genomes don't tell no one

They nod or write

The way some got shelved instead of whacked is interesting isn't it.

I think first of all that if you are a new jack, you are getting whacked and not shelved because there is nothing to shelve. You simply haven't been around long enough nor built up enough street cred, residual income, or whatever, to be "retired". So I think it helps when the gangster is older and accomplished/respected.

Also, when that older accomplished gangster is well connected and/or thoroughly dangerous, like a Frank Costello, it's simply too dangerous to whack them. You tell him to get out and don't come back. This was done with Frank, Bonanno, and Joe Biondo. Joe Biondo supposedly stole from Carlo Gambino and he was not whacked. Go figure. In Lupo the Wolf's case, I think he was just respected as a killer by other killers, and as a part of Italian American history, and so he was left alone and told to go his own way.

The majority of those Brooklyn guys who were in on the plot to kill Steve crea in the early 90s were shelved , it's a better solution , no headlines no bodies in the street and everyone keeps earning , apart from the guys shelved , it's a perfect solution to me , hurt them in the pocket and there still punished and disgraced also

Yeah Alfa, it's crazy I've read some things and been like man some of these guys got off easy, in mob life that is. And some of the mob rats who are scared to death aren't actually in any danger, they could probabably still come around ever so often and not be harmed, simply due to the fact of the media storm their death would bring. But if someone perceives their life is in danger is all that matters I guess.

This brings me to my next question, probably a dumb one, but would you say Luciano was kind of made to retire or shelved? I'm sure Vito had a ton of respect for him, but he would whack guys like it was his job. And I'm again sure Luciano was aware of that if he didn't step aside. What's your take?

I'm glad this topic was brought up because it is very similar to a thread I was going to start. My thread though delt with dissident factions in a family and how a boss decides who goes away and who they can get to fall in line. For example after Carlo had Albert killed he then had to contend with a few powerful capos who were still very loyal to Anastasia I.e Rava and Dellacroce. My question was how did he choose and how did he know that he had to whack rava but dellacroce would fall in line? Same thing with Gotti, appears he knew he wold have to take out billoti but he let a lot of the other members of that faction continue on as long as they fell in line. How do they know who will acquiesce to the new situation and who would fight?

Thanks for asking, and I sure many here may disagree with me, but at this time I feel that the Luciano Family remained Lucky Luciano's until the advent of Vito Genovese. It was not ever the Costello Family. I feel that Frank Costello was an acting Boss.

The move on Frank Costello was really a move against Lucky Luciano to remove him from controlling the Luciano Family.

So when Lucky's Family was taken over by Vito and his shotgun wielding thugs, you could then say that Lucky was partially forcibly retired. Obviously Vito was going to take the tribute from the new Genovese Family for himself and not pay any tax to Luciano.

So for Lucky to "stay in the game" and show them who the real Boss of Bosses was, he (and his allies) had to orchestrate Vito being sent away to prison, he had to go big into narcotics (which was probably the only lucrative racket available to him out in Italy), and he had to forge closer ties to his cousins, the Sicilian Mafia, as well as other international crime syndicates from other nations.

So whatever actually happened (the above is based on anecdotes, rumors, and speculation) Lucky was in fact "retired", but refused retirement.

As to the last part of your question, which is not dumb at all actually, I don't feel Luciano feared Genovese one tiny bit. Think about why Genovese wanted to seize power. He was Underboss and felt he was passed over for Frank Costello. He felt he was taking what was rightfully his. Obviously Lucky didn't respect Vito's brains enough to let him rise up in the Family the normal way. And I think Vito's behavior showed that he really wasn't boss material and Lucky was right about him. Vito couldn't get it through his thick head that...

1) Underbosses are selected by the Boss, not elected.
2) Bosses are elected by a Family, and then accepted by the Commission, sometimes even chosen by the Commission,
but never self appointed.

If Vito had not gone down on the drug rap, he would have been taken out.

Glad you brought this up. A lot of the times the way it seems to happen is like the following:

The Commission (or someone) is fed up with some very powerful frightening mobster's nonsense, so then send a hit team/delegation to the allies of the mark to garner support for the hit.

The allies are summoned to some meeting whereby the only means of escape is acquiescence. They are told that so-and-so is a marked man and that if they don't get with the program they themselves will be whacked...by someone else...within 24 hours. To me, that always meant that if they didn't express support for the plan that they would actually be killed right on the spot.

Now everyone is on the same page. The mark is isolated. His allies have been told to either not interfere or to even help hit the victim. If they don't, they're toast.

The mark is then hit in public, even though he was surrounded by 10 heavily armed body guards. No one saw the shooters. Everyone goes home whistling minding their business hoping they survive the housecleaning to follow.

So there it is. They know who is on their side and who isn't because they spoke with them (IE threatened them) about the upcoming hit ahead of time.

Now, revisit the Galante hit, the Maranzano hit, the Masseria hit, the Anastasia hit, the...you get the idea.

I don't see one side sending a delegation to the other side before the hit goes down, what's to keep the side that's jus been notified that their leader is going to be clipped from taking preemptive action, more like I could see them calling the remaining allies in AFTER the fact and letting them know what the new reality is and that it'd been in their best interest to come along, ala joe bonanao after maranzano got hit, not much can be done after the fact. And if they still feel love there could be issues then they can do what's needed.

Sometimes they did it after the fact, you're right.

KR, you have to recall the Ciancaglini brothers of Philadephia. Full blooded brothers who were sent out to whack each other.

Why does the mafia get the best friend of the mark to do the hit? It's not only because the best friend can get closest to the mark. It's also to make sure that the one person who might retaliate will lose all standing to do so.

Yes, allies were informed ahead of time before the hit, often.

Great analysis, I actually asked you something similar in my drug thread, if you subscribe to the theory of liberal and conservative factions on the commission, and on lucky you are right on the money.
Costello was always kinda aloof it seems, like he was more concerned with money and politics and fitting in with high society.
I actually think genovese coulda have been a good boss, the moves he pulled in Italy were, like, fuck....
But he was too gangster, allergic to taking orders I think, I have a cousin who had that mentality, just was not built to be a soldier.

Yup, something similar happened in my family; My first cousin, his name was Charles Dorsey, had Cabrini Green for some years; His power base was always the 1340 crew, aka "The Fabolous" aka the "crazy crew". The day he got hit in 96, his 24 hour security was mysteriously absent; and the only person with the power to call off his bodyguards was the governor at the time, who was from the 1340 crew, and the only way he woulda got hit in the first place was if people knew his crew would not retaliate, so I always felt someone from the other faction must have reached out to them, promised em something...
So yeah, isolate a dangerous guy, first step to killing em...

Best post in this thread, Dom. These guys are sitting in Brooklyn without two nickels to rub together, washed up and broke at fifty, and completely unemployable. And to a street guy, that's a fate worse than getting popped.

I've said this before, and I'm not repeating it to be mean spirited because there are guys on this board who are much more "book smart" than myself. But you can NOT understand the street from a strictly intellectual point of view.

I don't care how many of the books you've read, how many comparisons you've made to the Roman Empire, or how many times you've read "The Prince." If you haven't been exposed to it, even peripherally, you'll never completely understand the way these guys think, or what their motives were for turning to crime. Period.

Thanks for sharing that. The M.O. is the same across gang types and ethnicities.

I have a question, when someone gets shelved they still have a right to earn they just can't be involved with anyone from lcn correct? And when someone is shelved do thathat family tell other families that person was shelved?

When a guy gets shelved everyone knows. And if he goes out and earns illegally, he's competing with the people who shelved him in the first place. Things are different today, but at one time that would get you dead. Most guys in that position just move away out of embarrassment.

I think they shelved Giancana, he went to MExico and started gambling ops, making big money, then they were like, where's our cut? Lol...

I think Gotti got a lotta flak from his personal family for shelving RUggerio, but I don't think they got it that he Had to shelve him, actually he was supposed to die by rights, and the fact that he didn't kill him, kept the fire under Cassio to keep trying to walk him, funny...

I meant wack him, lol

chuck Dorsey was the gd street boss when he got killed

he was the only board member that didn't get locked up with hoover

larry called in that hit

correct

You know what the funny thing is? I don't think it was that simple; See when Hoover, when they did those bugged badges, and took down all those guys, and shipped Hoover off to supermax, we got conflicting reports from the street.
I think the gdhierarchy in jail floated the message that the hit came from Hoover; But in actuality I think chuck was hit to cut off Hoover from any connection to the street, so the faction still in like state prison led by Head ( co- chairman) could hold on to control.
It's like because it was the first time In The gangs history it was really separated from its leader, there was a real identity crisis I think. It's like the nation all of a sudden with no Elijah Muhammad.
I say this because I used to have court documents, from the trial of two hit men who were dispatched to kill the guys in the street who most likely set up the hit, one lived and talked;
In the documents it said, very explicitly that Hoover appointed Chuck to run the city, and was pissed when he was hit.
And the thing is, we got confirmation of this, from another source in the street, YEARS before those documents came out.
My aunt used to live in IDa B Wells projects, and the Regent over there back then, Bucky? Or something, basically said the same thing, that there was going to be some shit behind chucks death, he also said after chuck Cabrini was like , excommunicated from the gd hierarchy
See I had a talk with Chucks brother, he told me around the time of like late 95, they sent a guy, milkman, with a "title" assistant board member, trying to give chuck orders, acting like they came from Hoover.
But chuck was communicating through hovers girl see, he had a direct line to him, it's like the factions had started already...
My cousin, Chucks brother said chuck told the guy, " I'm the only board member in the streets, I come from Larry, basically who the fuck are you to give me any type of order?"
He told me Chuck had GDS from all over, west side, south side, bringing the mob money back to Cabrini. So you have a gang run from jail, with traditional power base on the south side, to a gang run from the street with power base in Downtown, see the change?
My cousin told me a time, a little before he died, that chuck called a "staff meeting"
He was planning to take out some crew from 35th or something, said he was going to call them to a meeting, then they would come out with ski mask and bat them to death, seriously
Like chuck was crazy, he was a lot like Marlo on that show the wire, utterly power crazed,
This is a guy who forced people to buy DUMMMY bags of drugs at gunpoint lol...

Since there aren't really books about this point of view and it's the one I'm specifically interested in about the mob, you should sometimes make a post about. What exactly is that makes these guys do it, even if it feels like an over simplified answer. I think it would be very interesting.

+1

I'm not a sociologist, Belette. But it's a lot of things. Years ago most Italians here were dirt poor, yet there would be about ten percent of the neighborhood driving Cadillacs while your own father might have been making a hundred dollars a week. It's the pull of the street (which is disappearing as Italian-Americans assimilate more and more). And most of all, it's living with these guys (even if you're not one of them) for forty or fifty years.

Now there are many more well-versed individuals on this board when it comes to charts and reports and all of that. But from where I'm standing, there are just certain things that I can't explain. When you're 55 years old, you'll know a great deal more about the people you grew up with than someone who read about them in The United States. You'll see.

PB, how many young guys even come from impoverished backgrounds anymore? Gonna have a soft mob soon :-D

That's what none of the fanboys can grasp. The best and the brightest Italian-Americans have assimilated into the suburbs. I'm still in the city because that's where our properties are located. But when my son graduates college in two more years and joins his sisters in the work force? That's that.

They'll always be around to some degree because crime will always exist. But the recruiting pool is thinning in quality if not quantity. Status quo for another generation or two, then you'll see the big changes.

Thanks PB, yeah I'm most interested in the human aspect of all this. Especially when the bright guys go into it, even though it would seem they have other options too. I guess like you say, you deal with these guys all your life since you were a kid, it alters your morals in a certain way unless you pay special attention and be even smarter than the bright guys. Maybe it's like war, the guys who are insightful and consider the morals of things will never last long. The ones who accept the crude reality and simply accept the rules of the game will do just fine.

And then there are the opportunist psychopaths who will sell their mother when it comes the time to save your ass.