is micheal mancuso boss material?

With all this talk about infighting within the bonanos, i was just wondering will he last long enough to be boss when he gets out

No.

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam.

All opinions have been made very clear on this issue under the current light of day. And without new information or circumstances a new thread on this issue is simply rehashing existing opinion ie a waste of time.

Yes he is boss of all bosses

He currently heads the Commission.

So lets discuss it until you guys start puking

Where to begin that he is not the boss? For starters Mancuso is not respected by the other Bronx crews. Mainly he his not respected by the Genovese and Lucchese crews up there, nor his he not respected by the Gambinos as well. Half of the Bonanno family would rather wipe out the Bronx faction of the family then take orders from it. Tommy and Vito could care less of what happens in that crew. Glasses had enough and told Michaels liason that He can be the boss of the tolits for all he cares, but Mancuso will not be boss while Joey, Sal, and Ralph are around, including Vito and Tommy. The only support Mancuso has is from Gottis old guys and the Colombos, though Russo doesn't like him. That sould tell you something.

Joseph massino single handedly destroyed the family, its because of him canada don't listen to the bonannos no more and anybody who takes over the family that can trace thier piwer back to massino will not be recognized

That guy with the nerve to bad mouth John and Joe B.

Hey Giacomo, who's joey, sal, ralph, Vito, and tommy? Also where does that Vinny TV fella fit in? I'm surprised Bruno or his uncle aren't considered, or nick santoro for that matter...

No argument there.


But I wouldn't go that far. Because it rules out everybody who was made pre-2004. And anyone made post-2004 likely lacks the experience to lead. Besides, how can you discount guys like Fat Tony and Nicky Mouth?

Sure, Nicky's perennially broke, but he's as stand up as they come. He and Tony are arguably the two most well-liked old timers in that family. And I'm not just speaking within the Bonannos, they're universally liked and respected by the other families as well. And they both went back over thirty years with Massino.

Do the bonannos have any more made men left in canada?

PB, you forgot Salvatore "Todo", he goes way back and is respected as well within the family and other families. Where Nicky stands it seems to be neutral from Ernest and Vito B meeting with both the Bronx and Queens, but Queens is where the real power is in that family as Vito and Tommy have things running smoothly at the monent. Joey is also married to Vito daughter. Vito and Tommy both have on occasion seeked Salvatore advise. Vinny TV and Sammy are hard to say were they stand, though it is safe to say that Sammy supports Queens. JB is old and might have stepped down, don't know, but Bruno gets out in 7 years.

Yeah, I've been posting for months now that the power has clearly shifted out east into Queens. Even Johnnie Joe--who's liked and respected MUCH more in the Bronx than The Nose--sent his people out that way. He comes home about a year after Mancuso. That's five years down the road, which is an eternity in the street, but unless the whole thing collapses, he'll come home with a lot of say.

He won't be able to move the power back to the Bronx. But the power in that family was never really in the Bronx to begin with. Massino only beefed up that crew as a favor to George and Fat Patty and it turned out to be a big mistake. Probably the biggest mistake that he made as boss (except for ratting lol).

The high profile Basciano years have mislead a lot of people into believing that the Bonannos were bigger in the Bronx than they actually were. And that's not a knock on Vinny, but it is what it is.

So pizzaboy, what do you think will happen when mancuso gets home? Will they just tell him "hey thanks for being the lightening rod, we don't need you anymore", or do you think there will be a power struggle? Do you think he'll step down quietly?

I literally have never heard one good thing said or read about this guy lol

He's a lot of things, but he's not stupid. They won't chase him, they'll let him earn. And I think it will all go down very quietly.

The Queens faction of the Bonannos has the full suport of the Westside and the Luccheses in the Bronx. And, not for nothing, that's a shitload of support.

Maybe give him a captain spot or something eh?

Who knows? He has like four years to go. That's an eternity in the street today. But if things stay status quo, yeah, something like that.

Like him or not (and he's honestly not very well liked), you can't chase a guy who does ten years standing on his head. It's bad policy and would set a terrible precedent.

They should have shelved him after he killed his wife over burned food. Was he a good earner at the time or simply nobody cared anymore about the "honor" and "street code" by then?

this is vito grimaldi were talking about? the guy with the bakery?

'By then'?
Honour is practically a myth in the history of LCN.
Look at the amount of rapists in LCN, the amount of guys who got whacked over money, power, jealousy etc etc. the amount of guys who moved H. Used H. Sold to kids. Extorted the poor working class. Their FELLOW paisan.
Honour? By then?
Never was to start with.

Yes, but what I mean, there sometimes were occasional exemplary "executions" for unnecessary or non-authorized killings.
I mean, Mancuso didn't ask anybody's permission, it could have been a matter of "discipline".
However, I agree about the lack of honor in Cosa Nostra, I just meant that sometimes they "kept the appearances" by whacking "loose cannons".

It's hard to argue with facts. In today's world, Christy Tick would be considered a serial rapist and he'd most certainly be a registered sex offender. He wouldn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting straightened out. Yet due to his involvement in the Commission Case, he's surrounded by a certain mystique that a bunch of morons buy into.

And he's not a wiseguy, but if you've never read the book "Raging Bull," you should. Jake LaMotta casually admits to at least two rapes that he made seem as routine as dinner and a movie. Lowlife scumbag.

Skinny, we are talking about Michael Mancuso, he will never get the Boss position of the Bonanno family. Vito Grimaldi is a capo of zips in Queens. Vito is highly respected. That family has at least 6 soldiers who could actually take the boss spot, and skip the ranks, some of them being former capos or administration members to that family.

Yes

Are you from the northeast?

I don't see mancuso stepping down for anyone, i wouldnt trust him myself because he's close to basciano, but i just don't see him serrendering power

He has no power.

If thats the case, who voted for him to be boss, must be some heavies within the family

My guess is he doesnt get out at his expected release date there will be new charges stemming from him running the family and they will nail him with a lengthy sentence, maybe life if he was involved in the meldish murder

Cheech, no I am from California.

Wouldn't be the first time that the Feds resorted to such a tactic, that's for sure. And it wouldn't even have to be Meldish. They can recall any of the rats from ten years ago any time they want. The Feds are without conscience when it comes to restarting the clock on crimes where the statutes have clearly expired. There are documented instances of RICO dates restarting from scratch for things as innocent as a phone number showing up on a pen register.

Even though that's a dishonest tactic, if I can just put in my two cents, Mancuso is one of those individuals who deserve it (if what I read about him is true). I am not saying that no mafioso deserves a second chance, some do, but the scumbag killed his wife over a petty argument. Gangster or no gangster, that's one low-life thing.

In response to this, I don't believe so. I mean technically guys like Rocco Sollecito and Arcadi and Del Balso & Giordano ARE Bonannos. But they don't recognize the Bonanno banner period. They're a part of The Rizzuto Crime Family before anything else. Montagna was the last. And the Rizzuto/Bonanno relationship is pretty much history.

agree with this completely

vknicks where are you from? ur posts are on point brother

How many rapists have the LCN inducted into their families?

@Sinatraclub:correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't acardi kicking up to the bonannos before he went away? So it will be smart for the bonannos to back his bid to become boss, it willbe back to business as usual

No he wasn't. Arcadi wasn't kicking up to anyone, let alone NY. Before Vito went to prison he severed ALL ties with the Bonannos and built his family as an independent one.

Not to mention the very small, minor detail that there's no way in Hell that the other American families would allow them to have a Canadian boss. Every crime becomes International, Interpol gets involved, and it attracts heat to people who don't need the aggravation. Besides, the Rizzuto/Bonanno relationship was over BEFORE Vito died. No one shed a tear in New York when Montagna got an early Thanksgiving present, which speaks volumes. Talk about a sacrificial lamb (which is ironically an Easter dinner ).

They can pick up the pieces if they keep doing what they're doing: Look to the old timers for leadership, and keep the lion's share of the activity out of the Bronx (where they were always a distant fourth to begin with).

A lot more then you'd think imo. Sonny Franzese had a rape charge, so did Furnari, Mimi just a few I can think of off the top of my head.

Spot on, PB. Like I said before, The Bonanno/Rizzuto relationship had been dissolved before Vito even went to prison. And Vito himself was pretty adament about driving that home to the rest of his guys during his time on the street before Massino ratted him out, after the Sciascia murder. And it wasn't just Vito, none of his top guys, including Arcadi, trusted a Bonanno after that and Vitale lying to them about what had happened.

Vitale said the rizzutto crew was kicking up right until 2006

I still say Vitale and Massino were full of shit too, no way Vito was kicking up to him as far as 06. Arcadi wasn't kicking up either and he'll end up dead before he ends up being boss, you can just about bet on that. Most of the action against the Rizzuto's can be tied to his ways of running the family when Vito was in America. I still say the Sollecito's are in control (either Dad or Son) and I think Vito drove that home in the Cuba or Dominican meeting and everyone is behind them. Yes I think Arcadi makes a power play and yes I think he ends up dead unless he comes out and retires, that might save his life.

And you have to remember who had what to gain by saying the Rizzuto's kicked up to Vitale. This should answer itself.

how would he know? He flipped in 03.

100% with Dixie.

No way Vito was kicking up post Massino rolling.

No. Way.

Think Dixie is referring to that blowhard Cicale.

And Vitale was blowing smoke out of his ass with that claim.

I also agree that Arcadi would be dead before becoming boss in Montreal. As Dixie said, a lot of the Rizzuto trouble can be tied into Arcadi's decision making as boss. For example, Vito promoted amicable relationships with the black street gangs for the sake of business and profit. Arcadi simply wanted nothing to do with them and had an old world, bigoted view of things, which only created more enemies. His handling of the Pony Tail De Vito situation, De Vito simply wanted his piece of the pie after coming home from all those years in prison, Arcadi told him to fuck himself and then had his boss murdered.

Arcadi himself lost trust in the organization for basically paving the way for the buddy-buddy relationships that some of Vitos men developed with the 'Ndrangheta, himself being a Calabrian. However, Arcadi still has his loyalists, he'll make some noise, but he'll be ruffling too many feathers with that bid.

I don't think Vitale said 2006 did he, He said until he flipped? Which is probably right.

But it isn't. We know this from guys like Adrian Humphreys and Antonio Nicaso. Vito severed ties with the Bonannos after the Sciascia murder. During meetings with Vitals, Vito would leave an empty seat next to his, which would be where Sciascia would've sat. After a couple of those in which Vitale did nothing but lie, Vito stopped answering to NY Bonannos all together. And his time spent on the street before he was indicted in the US was mostly spent enforcing that split and building his family up as an independent one. Vito stopped answering to Massino long before Massino flipped. So much so, that in the "Sixth Family", Vitale is also quoted as saying such, stating that it worried Massino. Without Vito's say, the Bonannos held no power in Canada. And Im sure Vito knew that at that point, Massino wasn't sending anyone to Canada to intimidate him. He would've been shipped back to NY in a box.

Journalists, is it really fact?

Its more than likely so, considering the money, the territory, and Vito beginning his ventures in the DR prior to his arrest. All of which the Bonannos had no piece of. You can also look at the funerals, prior to Vito's incarceration, there were no Bonanno presence at the funerals of Rizzuto soldiers such as Guy Panepinto, which took place merely months after the Sciascia hit. And vice versa with NY.

Maybe the funeral presence was a one off for Sciascia, as he came up in New York? I mean I know fuck all about Canada, but just find it odd how a journo would know intricate details about sit downs like bit about leaving a seat empty for Sciascia, makes fro good reading in books but just sounds a bit suspect as nobody rats over there, maybe it's just me.

When was this, exactly?

I would take an informants word over a canadian journalist, or any journalist on matters such as these

Really?

You'd take Casso's word over Capeci's?

Edit: I also find it interesting how you specify canadian journalist. As if a canadian journalist wouldnt be the authority on Canadian OC (as opposed to say who? A US one?).

Fox news thankfully still hasnt made its way north either.
Nor has the NY Post or other such rags.

I have to clarify, De Vito was on the run for the same scheme, he didn't serve time until he was caught, my mistake. But during this time, De Vito blamed the Rizzuto clan for the seizure of the cocaine by the RCMP, Gervasi was killed in '04, after his own money dispute with Arcadi. After this, De Vito himself and his ally Colapelle stopped kicking up to the Rizzutos. All of this is stated in Business And Blood. And Arcadi is just looked upon by some Rizzuto loyalists as unloyal and incapable of steering the ship.

@TommyGambino, No one rats publicly. But I'm sure just like in NY and Chicago, there are confidential informants. And guys who feel comfortable saying certain things to a well known Organized Crime reporter as long as he isn't named. Bottom line is, everything points to Vito no longer answering to the Bonannos after Sciascia was killed. And Sciascia wasn't a one off, there was no Bonanno presence at the funerals of Nick Jr and Nicolo.

And I really don't see how Humphreys & Nicaso's claims should be looked at as meritless, as opposed to Salvatore Vitale, when both Nicaso & Humphreys are two of the best and most knowledgeable experts of Canadian OC.

Seeing that they, and Capeci get most of their info from the FBI, who get their most valuable info from informants...well yeah

Funny how you picked two extreme examples to compare though...Casso and Capeci (the foremost expert on the mafia), well at least he used to be...and the most disgraced rat...who couldnt even succeed at ratting cuz he was such an idiot.

Well, since some of us clearly disvalue the words of two renowned Canadian OC reporters, lets follow the word of the rat Vitale...



- As of the meeting in Montreal with the Bonanno admin consisting of Vitale, the underboss and Anthony Urso, Massino's consigliere and the Rizzutos, Sciascias murder had alienated Massino from The "Sixth Family", physically and emotionally, because with both LoPresti & Sciascia dead, there were no Montreal emissaries based in NY for Massino to go to.

- Massino sent them up there with the hopes of naming Vito, the new Captain of the Montreal faction. Vitale, claims that Vito scoffed at this idea and suggested to him that his 77-year old father, be named captain, something the NY guys didn't want, something Vito was well aware of.

- The author notes that the indifference Vitale and Urso received from Vito, seemed to mark the severing of ties between Montreal and NY. This was in 2001.

- Vitale really had no idea what Montreal was up to, and as an extension, neither did Massino. Vitale claims a captain, is supposed to have up to 10 soldiers in his crew, with as few as 3. Going by that, Vito was clearly offended with this Capo offer, when he commanded twice as many "made" Bonanno members in Canada and perhaps even more Sicilian Mafioso, who had strictly Rizzuto ties, no Bonanno ones. Vito told Vitale that with Sciascias death, 19 made men stood with him. A number that only included those who were made in America, and excluded the guys Vito and his father brought over and inducted themselves.

- Vitale having to ask, how many made men stood with Vito, also supports the fact of the Rizzutos independence. For had they had actually been subordinate to NY, then surely those names would've been known to Massino beforehand. They weren't.

- And here's the nail in the coffin to this Rizzuto kicking up until Massino flipped argument. "I think the last time I was in their presence when they brought money down was approximately '98,'99" Vitale said of the Montreal gangsters." He goes on to say that Montreal MAY have continued to tribute, but that he had no evidence of it and thus could not be sure.

An RCMP report also supports this, in which it states, "After the murder of Sciascia, the envelopes stopped coming from Canada."

Vitale was explicitly told by Vito, "We're our own little family, there's about 18, 20 of us and we stay by ourselves and everybody respects everybody else." Vitale got the message, because when he got back to NY, he told Massino, "They have their own little splinter group".


All of what I just stated, comes directly, more or less word for word from the Sixth Family book. Vito wasn't kicking up to NY anymore after Sciascias murder.

Of course, why would there be when they were killed the Rizzuto's had nothing to do with New York for years. What I'm saying is did Bonanno guys historically travel to Montreal funerals when they were under NY?

The person that wrote the Sixth Family Book, he got all that directly from Vitale?

Yes they did, and weddings.

And Lee Lamothe & Adrian Humphreys got all that from Vitale, yes. Because it all comes from his statements made to Law Enforcement and his testimony during the Rizzuto/Three Captains trial. Should those sources be questioned too?

I guess I should have clarified "certain informants"

I would have to look at the timelines...but I believe it was when Vitale was made underboss (in name only) Massino practically cut him out of the "inner circle" and "out of the know" so I'm not sure how much he really knew.

As far as him traveling to see Vito, and Vito saying that to him, that doesnt mean they werent still kicking up.

But it also would make sense after the murder of their guy they may have stopped.

Either way we are just guessing. Both arguments seem plausible.

He cut him out of his circle, yet sent him to Montreal to meet with what he thought was the Canadian faction of his crime family?


Reading about Canada, knowing what I've come to learn through two well written books on the matter, RCMP investigations and well informed posters on the other forum, themselves very informed about Canadian OC Vito Rizzuto wasn't kicking up to NY. It isn't a guess, everyone whose informed about Canada say the same thing. He stopped kicking up after Sciascia was killed. All of the evidence supports it.

You guys were just willing to use Vitale and his supposed claim of "Vito kicking up until Massino flipped" as proof of Montreal kicking up. Yet when I use his same statements, which point to them not kicking up, now Vitale didn't know much. The guy clearly told Law Enforcement that the last time a kick up was made that he knew about was between 1998 and '99. And that he had nothing to show him definitively, that the Rizzutos still paid tribute to NY. And they didn't, and I strongly believe that.


Bottom line is this, The Bonannos have no power in Canada, there isn't anyone out there, according to recent RCMP reports representing them. And the Rizzuto Crime Family is a family of its own.

You are contradicting yourself.

How are these two the same...??

-Bonannos still have power in Canada today.

-Canada still kicked up to NY at least up until Massino flipped(which was over a decade ago)

I think you are even confusing yourself, chief.

+1
Its doubtful there was any relationship post Sciascia but almost certain any remaining ties were severed post Joe flipping.

Uhm, no, the only thing I'm confused about is where you got those two statements from.

What are you attempting to say? Where did I even remotely say that Bonannos still had power in Canada today? Pretty sure I said quite the opposite. I also said that judging from everything I've learned in regards to Canada, which I think has been quite a bit over the years, that the Rizzutos STOPPED kicking up to NY Bonannos and that along with the severing of their ties, that this occurred after Gerlando Sciascia was killed. Thats actually what I said. So where are these contradictions coming from?

@ Blackjack: yeah, you missed me too with your last post.

I read Sinatra's post as quite the opposite.

Just to be clear,Vitales statements about Massino's entreaty to Vito to be made Caporegime was told by Vitale in the USA V. Patty DeFillipo trial in '06 and supported by confidential police files. The end of the tributes from Montreal to NY comes from a private RCMP briefing, the authors (Lee Lamothe & Adrian Humphreys) were clearly granted access to. The statements Vito made to Vitale about Montreal being its own Family were revealed by Vitale in USA V. Vincent Basciano on March 1, 2006.

Thanks for the info, like I said I've read little of the Bonnano-Rizzuto saga, really interesting stuff.

Is there not a transcript of Vitale & Massino testimony similar to Scars available online?

think I've got the vitale one somewhere , never seen the massino one though

My fault for not re-stating my argument

but my argument never was that there was still NY influence and connection and Canada kicking up in 2015...But that they still did after the hit on their guy...

So I took it as you, acting like I was saying they were still kicking up today, so I put up my opinion on the matter to your last statement, which I thought was in part...directed at me

Vito must have looked st the americans as rat pieces of shit towards the end.

Does any one have any theory as to how Mike nose becomes elected boss in jail. How could he pole the capos in his family. Guy was doing 15 yrs. Is he related to someone big. I mean these rules been around forever ethier the other families elect the boss or the family's capos. Especially in that family were so many guys tried power plays to take over as boss to be killed. Why elect a boss who isn't on the street and isn't coming home for awhile just doesn't make lcn sense.

I hate to get in the Vito rizzutto was so powerful well guess what his whole fucking family got slaughtered America or candian or whatever. No one kill any of gottis kids or chins ect.

All sources should be questioned, especially informers.

In an earlier post you said Vitale was blowing smoke.

And in addition, Montreal journalists are often better informed than the ones from Toronto when it comes to the Montreal Mafia. Ironically, they've been less pro-Rizzuto than their Toronto colleagues.

Actually, that was specifically in response to someone's statement that Vitale said the Rizzutos kicked up to NY until 2006.



His quotes made during various testimonies don't support that though. All I've seen is him stating the '98-'99 thing. I don't see much reason to question things like RCMP reports and court testimony, at least not when there's evidence to support it.

Vic oreana was on the street 1991 he told his consig sessa to pole the capos so he could go to the other bosses and have them dethrown Carmine persico who locked up in Cali. I'm sure sessa regretted snitching on lil Vic who was he friend cause it went down hill real fast and the rest is history. Vinny basciano must have had some role in it.

One of his sons were killed, as well as his father, and a brother in law. That's not his whole family. And the fact that not one move was made against his immediate family and his crime family until after he was convicted and extradited to a US Prison, is a testimony to his power, is it not?

And the majority of those believed to have been mainly responsible in the killings of his son, father and brother in law and the war against his organization, all ended up dead after his release. The ones who played the fence during the war, all ended up dead after his release. Granted its tough to say how many of those were actually on Rizzutos call, but the common belief from Canadian Law Enforcement and Canadian OC experts, is that it was Vito's doing. He proved to be a lot more powerful in many aspects than your average NY Mob boss. A lot of that can be attributed to their environment. But I don't think his power can just be written off like that. I disagree with you on this one, pmac.

So if Vitale would've said that the Rizzutos continued to pay tribute you think he would be blowing smoke? Does that mean that you choose what statements you want to believe and what not? Just curious.

If Vitale said that and it was supported by the views of Canadian authority on the matter, his claims would hold merit with me.

But its not just Vitale, if Vitale said that the Rizzutos continued to kick up until 2006, the reason its hard for me to believe that is because all the authorities on the matter don't share that opinion.

It isn't just Vitales word, its also that of the OC reporters from Canada, RCMP reports, and Vitales own testimony, which would contradict the "they kicked up until Massino flipped" claim, as well as them kicking up until 2006.


Do you get what I'm saying? There's nothing, nothing from the RCMP, from Humphreys, Lamothe or Nicaso, that supports the claim of the Rizzutos kicking up after Sciascias death, or until Massino flipped, or until 2006. Nothing I've come across anyway, which is why to me, that claim would be highly questionable.

But I don't even see Vitale saying that, as one of the sources I named, have him quoted stating that the last kick up he was aware of was between 1998 and 1999.

Why didn't Sessa just poll the capos?

Sessa must have known Persico would order him to whack his friend Orena?

It was oreana and persico decision to make sessa consig. Guess sessa probaly wanted to be bumped to acting boss if oreanas gone. Read the 2 were real tight.

The thing is, the opinion of these authors concerning this is based solely on Vitale's testimony, and Vitale basically said that he didn't know whether the Rizzutos were still kicking up after Sciascia's death. He might have been right, but it's also been said that at some point Vitale was kept in the dark by Massino because he was not held in high regard by him and the other capos and that his role as underboss was mostly ceremonial. Ultimately, the highest authority on this matter is Massino himself.

No denying he was very powerful, especially in the last 15 years of his life.

Did Rizzuto answer to Sciascia before his death?

Rizzuto didn't answer to Scaiscia, its confusing because I never got the impression that Sciascia answered to Rizzuto either. I think they thought of each other as equals. It should be noted that Sciascia was seeking permanent residence in Canada and had a house being built on Mafia Row at the time of his death.

As far as the RCMP goes, their information is based on their own investigation and wiretap, according to The Sixth Family. And they too have said in various reports that Rizzuto seemingly stopped kicking up after Sciascia's murder.


But you have a point. Either way, I'm still of the opinion that the Rizzutos weren't kicking up after Sciascia was killed. And I damn sure don't find it at all believable that they were kicking up until 2006.

Yeah I was thinking Sessa had Acting boss aspirations.

First he kick started the Colombo war and then he turned rat.

Sessa wasn't even qualified to be consigliere IMO.

The rizzutos have to be the smartest father and son mafia tandem ever, they tooked a crew of 20 men and turned it into a family of 500 men right otjer massino's nose, they made him look like a jackass. Vitale said don vito told him we consider ourselves equals out here, we keep to ourselves and take care of our own...hahahahaha what idiots massino and vitale were

The Rizzutos had about 50 made men and between 200-300 connected guys. But they had alliances with other groups as well.

No chance they were kicking up to Masssino until '06. Why would they? I agree with Franky Boy here. Evidence is pretty overwhelming.

But vito lied to vitale and said they only had 20 made men

The Rizzutos inducted guys without permission from NY.

He only told Vitale how many American made guys he had.