Why were the books closed in 57 and reopened in 76

Just curious about this, I assume it was to stop any more rats like Valachi getting made or does it go deeper than that?

Perhaps the commission decided to downsize CL in an effort to stay off the government radar (as best they can).

Maybe it was to stop LE trying to infiltrate their ranks with undercover ops after the Valachi disclosures?

Apalachin, New York on November 14, 1957

Valachi didn't flip until after Apalachin.

Also the books were not totally closed until 76. Nicky Bianco was made in the 60's I believe. Patriarca had him made in NYC.

A few guys slipped through the cracks during that time period .

Yep I bet

some guys were made in other cities then brought back..

was that happening?Im suprised more guys didnt get made that way.

Im surprised families outside of NYC were allowed to initiate when NYC wasnt.

Yes a few guys did slip through in new York. But think books being closed were for the tri state area families, as so the families would stop expanding. I know SF and NO were exempt from this as they were older families. Some of the smaller families made members during this time as well.

The books being closed was kind of overexaggerated. Some guys got made in between. Nino gaggi is one of the more popular name.

Frank Scalise, an old-timer in Anastasia's family, was caught selling buttons in that family for $50k each. He was whacked in '57. Some believe that's what caused the books to close.

Turnbull get the point but even Patriarca sr made Angiulo because he promises 100,000 a month only for the boss,maybe the book was reopened after Carlo Gambino death.

Some guys was made when the book was officilly close.

Colombo

1972:Alphonse "Allie Boy" Perisco

Bonanno

1968: Vincent Asaro

Gambino

1960: Anthony "Nino" Gangi

Lucchese

1974:
Anthony “Gaspipe” Casso

Genovese

1967:
James “Jimmy Nap” Napoli
Guiseppe “Joseph” Sabato


Info on the others family ?

Not sure how much that list is accurate Furio..For sure casso was not made in 74,Nino Gaggi pre 1957

A little surprised guys was made outside Nyc in when back.

I always thought the "selling buttons" thing was a pretext to get Gambino into the number two spot.

Farby got made in the early '70s as well. I don't care what his FBI file says. The Feds aren't ALWAYS right. They're right MOST of the time, but not ALL of the time. And you guys know me, I never pick on the researchers here. Without them, you wouldn't have half the information about the ancient history of the American mob.

But I'm sorry, when it comes to 116th Street up through the East Bronx during my lifetime, the FBI isn't telling me anything that I don't already know. And there were other guys made into that crew during the "hiatus" that the Feds have marked down as "Made in 1976 or 1977."

@ Hairy Knuckles, if you read this, shoot me a pm on the other site. There's something I have to help you with (and no, it's not the Funzi/Benny thing). I respect your opinion even though I believe with all my heart and soul that the opposite is true. That's why I never reply to those threads. I don't like arguing with friends. It's about a few guys who were made during the "hiatus."

Furio, you need to pay more attention to other people´s posts. Vincent Asaro was not made in 1967, Casso was made in 76 or 77, Napoli and Sabato also made in the 1970s and Montiglio´s/Capeci´s words on Gaggi being made in 1960 are probably complete bullshit. I´ll say this again, NO ONE was made in New York when the books were closed (the only two exceptions being Nick Bianco and Allie Boy Persico). Is this so hard to understand?

This will be my last post on this site. 2418 is a good number. I have had fun posting here for the last 4 years and gained some very close friends. You know where and how to reach me if help is needed. If I can´t help out with something personally, I will go an extra mile and reach out to others who might be able to help out.

HK

PS, PB, I´ll shoot a PM overthere. (Gosh, a lot of P´s in this last sentence. lol)

@HK see my post above yours.

Damn, HK, that sucks you are leaving. Always enjoyed your posts.

HK...We will miss you but understand. Can I ask one of the guys for your email? I'd like to keep in touch with you, if that's ok. Like I always say...HK you're the man, you know your stuff!!!!

dam hk no more post that sucks. but im thinking vito genovese doesnt go to jail till somtime in 59 after his appeals who the fuck gonna tell him his books are shut before he gets his house in order and goes to jail, he was probaly having mass inductions. anyway buster ardito gets caught on a bug in 2004 ssaying he was inducted in 1958. the feds used it agaust him at a bail hearing.

Best of luck Hairy. Shame to see you go.

HK, a true stand up guy who I look forward to seeing "on the other side."

Salute'!

I'm sorry to see you go too, HK. You were a great contributor. A very well informed guy.

Can you blame him?

I love this board and stick up for the owner and the mods all over the place. But there's just no way to keep the vermin out. It's old and tiresome.

God willing this kid goes to jail in November, I GUARANTEE that at LEAST a dozen usernames go suddenly dormant.

Good luck HK buddy,poz zemljace

High oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA you are correct sir. This might be a nice place again.

It is a sad day to see HK go. You take care of yourself Hairy and take a load off.

See you on the "other side" buddy.cheers

My believe is that the books were closed because the families were becoming too large. Apparantly a shitload of guys were made in the 50s. I don't see why the books needed to be closed for 20 years because memberships were sold to a few guys in one particular family.

Sad to see you leave Hairy K, one of the best posters here IMO. Dont know the reason but anyway; tack för bra inlägg och lycka till med framtida forskning på området!

Yeah, HK. What he said .

Hairy I found the inductions list on black hand forum in a post written by Pogo the clown that never wrote bullshit.

Bon voyage! You'll miss to us.

" Why were the books closed in 57 and reopened in 76"

If you were able to look up that the books were closed during this specific period then why didn't you just keep reading whatever you were reading and figure out why?

I've only read: The five families - The rise, decline and resurgence. No mention about it in that book.

Nothing I've read on the net mentions why the books are closed in 57' and reopened in 76'.

What is the problem with the families getting to large?....not enough gambling customers, shy clients and union schemes to share around or something like that?

Possibly. It's also been said by some that they put a membership cap on the families so one family couldn't grow too large and pose a threat to the other families. And then there is also the issue of law enforcement scrutiny. I think that they simply decided that there was enough manpower for the families to function properly. At their height the Five Families were estimated to have about 1500 made members and thousands of associates. They were pretty much in control of New York at the time.

Exactly, Sonny. And that's why the smaller, out of state families were allowed to grow themselves a bit and still make guys during the hiatus. Because even with the additional manpower, they still posed no threat to New York.

And it's good to see you posting again. It's been a long time since I've seen you here on the regular. This place could use as many quality posters as we can get, especially in this section (to be fair, the other sections run themselves and there's never any trouble there).

Aren't there set amounts of made me for each family? I don't recall were I read it or heard it. I think The Gambinos have a max of 270 made guys, The Westside about 280, the Lukes, Bonananos and Colombos about 150. Is this etched in stone or just misinformation?

No, I don't think it's misinformation, Beans. But I don't think those numbers reflect today's LCN. The RATIO (family to family) is most likely the same, but not the actual numbers.

As usual, Thank you.

Ill miss you again but I was thinking of this. Why would galante make all these guys in 1977 massino and crew ect. If there all proposed three rusty if there's no beef between them. Galante I read somewhere made the first dozen guys in Dec 76 al walker Tony mirra and Sonny red or black. The books I think open when a boss really made a stink. And lastly according to scarpa Carmine persico inducted people into that family off the books on the sneak he said Gerry lang and Russo.

I don't think anyone telling Vito genovese no just cUse he's in a cell down south. But if I still had the same the plumber book I could recall some shit. Them bosses in the 60tys wernt as tight as we've been told I think. The late 70tys guys into the 80tys seemed more at peace. Except galante trying to takeover. After eboli died it was calm.

I'm watching red Sox game sorry for all the misfuckups.

First off, even though he says he's not posting anymore, I want to preface this by saying that Hairy Knuckles is THE most dedicated researcher I've ever had the pleasure of meeting online. We email each other offsite and I consider him a real friend, even if we've never actually met face to face. But I have to stand by my position that Farby (young Farby) was made around '71 or '72.

The Serpicos were from Corona, but Farby's father (also nicknamed Farby), ended up very close to Buckaloo when he was at his peak. And Buckaloo and Fat Tony did what they had to do to get him his button and put him into 116th. Now, to be clear, I'm talking about the Farby that ended up acting for Chin after he went away in '97. He died a few years later real young. I don't think he even made sixty.

I made the distinction between the Farbys because, believe or not, there were four of them. Two first cousins named Frank Serpico, both nicknamed Farby, who both had sons named Frank Serpico, also nicknamed Farby. And you wonder why FBI agents from Oregon could never get a handle on these guys .

In San Jose, they made three members in the 1960's one for each crew, Vito Adragna who was sponsored by his father Frank into the Cerrito-Marino crew, Salvatore Contenza into the North crew who was sponsored by John Misuaca of the Colombos, and Modesto made a member who passed away in 2001. They vetoed four or five other guys during the time the books were closed for New York. SF made members during this time, but I heard Lanza was very selective on who was brought in, by the mid 1980's he was grabbing at what ever he thought would benefit the family.

Great info PB.He was made very young.

I assume that being that Don Carlo put up that ban,Gambinos made the least guys betwen 57 and 76.Maybe even nobody was made by the Gambinos during those years.Wondering does anybody think diffrent?To be true what I said before,I belive HK that there is no prof that somebody was made,than again PB is a pal and I trust him to,so..

Thanks. I only post from time to time in an interesting thread, of which there are very few these days. I agree with you about that this didn't apply to the families outside of New York. I also interpret it as that the books were closed for group ceremonies and that some individuals were still made if, like you said, they had the right rabbi.

Don't believe anything on my account, Alex. Like I've said a million times, HK is the best researcher I've ever met and I'm proud to call him a friend. But he depends on FBI files to a great extent, and I do not. But we respect each other enough to keep it respectful and off the boards.

That's why you'll rarely see us contradict each other, or get into an open debate on the boards, even when we disagree. You can't say that about too many guys because so many posters love to bait each other just for the sake of argument. HK's all class. And the truth is, we actually disagree on VERY few things. But this is obviously one of them.

Farby's one guy, but I firmly believe there were a few others. But I'm not going to go on about it because HK isn't here anymore. He and I will discuss the matter privately. Truth be told, we already have .

Pizza: Just a few encouraging words in our native language

Understod,you are both gentelmen and great friends,there is no reason you should argue about thing that are not that important.There is a 1000 people that can witess to what i just said,and there is nobody that can say otherwise.
P.s. if you care to trow some names my way,you know where I am buddy.

Doesn't closing the books and capping the size of each families limit the power of LCN in general compared to other OC groups?

The official figures for the families over the last 15-20 years have been pretty consistent. Around 200 members for the Genovese was cited by the Feds in the Danny Leo case. 200 for the Gambinos was also cited by the Feds in the Danny Marino case. 112 members was cited for the Colombos in the 2004 NJ OC report. In 2001 the Feds released a no contact list for Robert Lino of all 111 known Bonanno members including Lino himself. Estimated for the Luccheses have also been similar to those for the Colombos and Bonannos, ie about 100 or a little over that. Total estimated NY membership generally ranges from 700-750.

Westside & Gambino's are probably around 225. 200 known members, some guys slip under the feds radar.

what comes just to my mind is the 63 valachi trial.. what would you guys estimate were the number back then of guys who "slipped under the feds radar"?

Too many to count. There were Westside guys who went to their graves as recently as the '80s and '90s who were COMPLETELY off the Feds' radar. Their obituaries read just like John Q. Public's.

so give me a number pb (or anyone else) . I know, this has discussed ad nauseam over the time, but it just slipped my memory..

And that's what Cosa Nostra is suppose to be about!

I read somewhere that before Massinos fall that the Bonannos had 190 made guys, true or bullshit?

Bullshit. I never saw 190 cited anywhere but did see 150 cited in a few places. But I think even that was inflated. As said, there were 111 known Bonanno members in 2001 - which was shortly before guys started flipping and Massino's regime came crashing down. Even if one also figures in the highest probable members flying under the radar (perhaps 10-15 at most) it wouldn't come to 150. Also, in 2006 wiretaps recorded there being less than 100 soldiers in the family. Even after again adding in the number of guys flying under the radar, plus administration members and captains, it wouldn't come to 150 members. Much less 190 then or in 2001.

It seems for some time now ( at least the last 25 years or so) the three smaller families have each ranged 100-125 members.

Come to think of it, I think 190 members was cited for the Bonannos in the 1988 "25 Years After Valachi Report." But, considering the state of the family at the time, as well as other estimates from around then, they would have been nowhere near 190 members.

What happened? Why is HK leaving?

Does somebody remmember that document that was on this forum some time ago,it had all the names of all the mobsters in the 5 families and their known adresses?I cant find it myself

Active Mobsters houses thread Alex?

No,not just active.Past members,dead members...its from the 80s..Remmember it?

Did these numbers also include all 19 Montreal members? I know the FBI most often does not include the Canadians except for Vito Rizzuto. With the Canadians added the Bonannos might very well have had as many as 140 members.

I doubt it was Gambino's decision. He had just become a boss and there was no way longtime bosses like Bonanno, Profaci, and Lucchese would roll over for the rookie. There is no way in hell Vito Genovese would be pushed around.

Like someone said earlier, the books were closed because of the Apalachin fiasco and the fear of LE infiltration. All the bosses went along with it including Genovese. He, more than the rest, didn't need any further humiliation. And he was technically a rookie boss himself; throwing his weight around against all the other New York bosses wouldn't have done him any favours.

No i meant as the last fuctioning and surviving member,aside from Joe Bonnano.It came ot wrong

Alex, is this the thread that you're talking about?
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=829539&page=1

Yes it is thank you njcapo,thank you very much..I own you one,I mean it Nice job.

No problem, Alex...All the Thanks should really go to Snakes for posting.

I actually have all of these charts on paper. I was going to post them up, until i found out that Snakes has already done so. Less work for me..LOL....Thanks again, Snakes...Enjoy, Alex.

Genovese was a rookie but he was the one who took out Costello, Moretti, and Anastasia. Even after Apalachin he was the most feared boss. He had been one of the top Genovese guys for over 20 years and was acting boss before he fled to Italy.

Thank you NJ Capo35 for finding this thread and thanks to Snakes for compiling the info. Amazing stuff!

I don't click on the photos threads nearly enough. But good stuff, Boys .

I'm sure one of the reasons joe bonnano was ousted was because he was making guys wen the Hitus was supposed to be in place