Associate question? - GangsterBB.NET

Associate question? - 03/05/15 07:47 PM

I am currently reading Alite's book and he makes reference to some associates being such major players that they have their own crews.....He refers to Jimmy Burke....I know Jimmy Burke was a major player but is it possible for a major associate to actually oversee made guys within a crew of theirs? Or, would their crews only contain other non-made guys?

Posted By: Footreads

Re: Associate question? - 03/05/15 07:55 PM

Never heard an associate being a boss over a made guy. But an associate could make deals with made guys and being listened to by made guys because they are making money with them.

Posted By: Big_T

Re: Associate question? - 03/05/15 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: ItalianIrishMix

I am currently reading Alite's book and he makes reference to some associates being such major players that they have their own crews.....He refers to Jimmy Burke....I know Jimmy Burke was a major player but is it possible for a major associate to actually oversee made guys within a crew of theirs? Or, would their crews only contain other non-made guys?

You could theoretically call any organized group of criminals a "crew", but no, an associate cannot be in charge of a group that consists of all or some made guys. A made guy could certainly do some work or a job with a group of associates, which probably often applied to Burke's crew at times. This is further illustrated by Burke's eagerness for Desimone to get his button ( instead of getting clipped, which is what is actually happened ).This just illustrates how money is the supreme god in the mob. Burke was a prolific earner and wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty when needed, which is why half Italian, half Irish Jimmy the Gent was allowed to live, and 100% Italian Desimone "had to go".

Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Associate question? - 03/05/15 08:25 PM

I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.

but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.

but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner.

Posted By: RedBullets

Re: Associate question? - 03/05/15 08:28 PM

Burke had a crew inside of a crew. Some did hits. They were mainly just thieves. They would all report to that club and pay up to Burke. Burke would pay up to Vario.

None of Burkes crew were made. He did plenty of business with made guys but he didn't tell made guys what to do.

Posted By: Beanshooter

Re: Associate question? - 03/05/15 08:28 PM

Wasn't tat the same for Joe Watts Binnie and Big T?

Posted By: jordsta

Re: Associate question? - 03/05/15 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll

I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.

but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.

but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner.

Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy.

DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head.

Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison.

That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself.

Posted By: blacksheep

Re: Associate question? - 03/05/15 09:37 PM

There are times when an associate is clearly superior to the made guy in an operation in terms of effectiveness but I don't know about making it official as a boss/subordinate operation. I don't think the wiseguy ego could take it. Generally it'll be a partnership deal where the associate runs the show under protection. Those types of situations give associates influence that creates some extreme power tho.. so it might not be official, but an associate who makes big money can flex his muscles even against made guys, if he has the right friends

Posted By: Mmalioni

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 12:14 AM

In Chicago at least there are a lot of instances in which made guys were in practice, although maybe not in theory, subordinate to non made guys/associates.

Examples:

Hy Larner clearly directed the activities of the Bastone brothers
The Bosses took the side of Frank Rosenthal over Anthony Spilotro
Casey Szaflarski ran video poker in the city
Jake Guzik was the #2 in his era

Posted By: Belette

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 04:35 AM

Gotti became acting captain of the Fatico crew before he was made (according to Mustain and Capesi).

Posted By: jordsta

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 07:12 AM

Yep. Fatico took a back step, giving Gotti authority to run his rackets when he got released from prison, then giving him control of the crew 3-4 years before he got made. Gotti was meeting Carlo Gambino & Neil Dellacroce weekly as well, allegedly.

He also was a partner in the all-Families gambling/socializing den, The Sinatra Club. He was a piss poor cards player though.

Posted By: domwoods74

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 07:26 AM

I've read Michael persico has more power than some soldiers in the colombos due to who is family are

Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 03:03 PM

Originally Posted By: jordsta

Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll

I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.

but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.

but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner.

Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy.

DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head.

Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison.

That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself.

yes,fine post, that's exactly what happened, and nobody deserved it more than tommy desimone.

the information I got came from "the Sinatra club" by sal polisi.

Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 03:04 PM

this topic always begs the question, who was the most powerful associate?

for my money, curly Humphries of Chicago. simply because he lasted so long on top.

Posted By: furio_from_naples

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 03:16 PM

I think the question should be put in these terms: the associate is Italian or not ?

If yes,he could "made"; Gotti was acting capo of the Fatico crew even he was an associate; Corallo, when the Abate the Jersey Crew boss in the early 1970 went into semi-retirement,choose as jersey boss Accetturo despite he wasn't made until 1976,because Accetturo represented the Mafia ideal: loyal, trustworthy and a good earner.

The mafia mentality about not-Italian associates is: yes, we make business with us,they made a lot of money for us, etc. but they aren't like us and never will be like us.

Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples

I think the question should be put in these terms: the associate is Italian or not ?

If yes,he could "made"; Gotti was acting capo of the Fatico crew even he was an associate; Corallo, when the Abate the Jersey Crew boss in the early 1970 went into semi-retirement,choose as jersey boss Accetturo despite he wasn't made until 1976,because Accetturo represented the Mafia ideal: loyal, trustworthy and a good earner.

The mafia mentality about not-Italian associates is: yes, we make business with us,they made a lot of money for us, etc. but they aren't like us and never will be like us.

yes, furio I think you are quite correct concerning the Italians. murray Humphries in the book "the outfit" mentions that every time something came up for a vote the Italians always voted together. he says "in forty years they were always voting together"

Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 03:47 PM

Originally Posted By: ItalianIrishMix

I am currently reading Alite's book and he makes reference to some associates being such major players that they have their own crews.....He refers to Jimmy Burke....I know Jimmy Burke was a major player but is it possible for a major associate to actually oversee made guys within a crew of theirs? Or, would their crews only contain other non-made guys?

Virtually without exception, the answer would be no. And that's keeping in mind there can be a distinction between the influence a high-level associate may have and them actually having official oversight (authority) of made members.

As said, Burke didn't oversee any made guys.

Gotti may have been given oversight of the Fatico crew but it was understood he was soon to be made. He already would have been if not having been in prison.

Originally Posted By: Mmalioni

In Chicago at least there are a lot of instances in which made guys were in practice, although maybe not in theory, subordinate to non made guys/associates.

Examples:

Hy Larner clearly directed the activities of the Bastone brothers

The Bosses took the side of Frank Rosenthal over Anthony Spilotro

Casey Szaflarski ran video poker in the city

Jake Guzik was the #2 in his era

Spilotro being killed for the heat he brought down on the Outfit doesn't show Rosenthal had any oversight of Spilotro.
Szaflarski ran one of the Outfit's video poker operations - due in no small part to being related to Frank Caruso. But that doesn't mean he oversaw any made members. One basically has to go waaaay back to the days of Guzik, Humphreys, etc. to find actual examples. And even then there's the question of the "made status" of guys back then.

Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague

One basically has to go waaaay back to the days of Guzik, Humphreys, etc. to find actual examples. And even then there's the question of the "made status" of guys back then.

What about Gus Alex? He is a more "recent" example, but I got the impression he had the same power as Guzik and Humphreys.

Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 03:58 PM

Weren't some made guys subordinate to Lepke? Jack Parisi and Frank Carbo? Or were they made only after Lepke was electrocuted?

Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011

What about Gus Alex? He is a more "recent" example, but I got the impression he had the same power as Guzik and Humphreys.

Alex basically succeeded Guzik as the main intermediary between the Outfit and Chicago politics. He would be the last example but, even by the time he died, he was the lone exception to the rule. Even then, and certainly now, you can look at the hierarchy of the Outfit and other LCN families and it's all Italians. There can be non-Italians in important positions overseeing their own crews and certain rackets, and because of those positions they may even hold more influence in practice than some made guys (though I'd venture to guess this is rare in itself), but I can't think of any modern-day examples of associates having official oversight of made guys.

Posted By: Beanshooter

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 04:40 PM

Ivy how about joe Watts?

Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Beanshooter

Ivy how about joe Watts?

People bring him up a lot. There was always the claim that he could have be a captain had he been Italian. And he certainly was what one would call a "high level" associate. He was a big earner for the family and a killer. But he never had oversight of made guys.

Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 05:05 PM

Could Raynald Desjardins in Canada give orders to made soldiers? Or maybe he himself is made, as an exception (I read people disagreeing about whether this is the case)? Are the Italians arrested with him for the Montagna hit made or associates?

Posted By: jordsta

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 05:32 PM

Wasn't Fernandez inducted into the Rizzutos? How true is that even?

Posted By: Dellacroce

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By: jordsta

Wasn't Fernandez inducted into the Rizzutos? How true is that even?

On a wiretap in sicily Fernandez was picked up telling a room full of Sicilian mobsters that he and desjardins were made by Rizzuto. My opinion, that was just Fernandez blowing smoke, trying to make himself sound important. I would have to see more evidence before i believed that Rizzuto inducted non italians.

Posted By: jordsta

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 05:59 PM

I know there were rumours circulating and themselves boosting about their alleged statuses. I just wanted to know if there's actually any evidence supporting them? We all know they were close to the Rizzutos.

You've said what I was thinking, I need more evidence to believe that; especially someone at Rizzuto's calibre.

Posted By: Homers77

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 09:53 PM

What about Papa Smurf? Or other guys like that in major legit business...

Or do guys like that not only not get made because it would be bad for business but do they also not get involved in anything else.

Posted By: Homers77

Re: Associate question? - 03/06/15 09:57 PM

I would guess there are and were rarely any circumstances where an associate had control over a made guy which was I think the OPs original question.

But in terms of status in all come downs to money they would rather keep around a millionaire associate then made guy that is a brokster....

Posted By: Big_T

Re: Associate question? - 03/07/15 12:27 PM

Originally Posted By: jordsta

Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll

I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.

but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.

but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner.

Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy.

DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head.

Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison.

That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself.

Great post Jordsta. I didn't know Vario actually drove Desimone to his clipping! One thing though. Everyone time someone mentions how Paulie was nailing Karen Hill, I feel like grabbing an ice pick, and stabbing out my mind's eye!

Posted By: domwoods74

Re: Associate question? - 03/07/15 12:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Big_T

Originally Posted By: jordsta

Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll

I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.

but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.

but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner.

Al d'arco stated Bruno facciola had something to do with driving desimone to his death

Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy.

DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head.

Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison.

That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself.

Great post Jordsta. I didn't know Vario actually drove Desimone to his clipping! One thing though. Everyone time someone mentions how Paulie was nailing Karen Hill, I feel like grabbing an ice pick, and stabbing out my mind's eye!

Posted By: jordsta

Re: Associate question? - 03/07/15 01:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Big_T

Originally Posted By: jordsta

Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll

I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.

but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.

but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner.

Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy.

DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head.

Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison.

That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself.

Great post Jordsta. I didn't know Vario actually drove Desimone to his clipping! One thing though. Everyone time someone mentions how Paulie was nailing Karen Hill, I feel like grabbing an ice pick, and stabbing out my mind's eye!

Join the club lmao. DeSimone was scared of Gotti though, well I've always had the impression he was. Didn't DeSimone get himself locked up to protect himself after the Foxy murder because he was scared he was going to be killed by Gotti's crew and Vario was locked up, so he had no protection.

Sorry for derailing the subject.

For as the OP, did associates control made guys? Doubt that very much, otherwise there wouldn't of been much point in having that status. Albeit in certain score operations, maybe associates had control to a certain extent over them due to more knowledge on that specific operation? It's always a possibility that could've been the case.

Posted By: Big_T

Re: Associate question? - 03/07/15 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By: jordsta

Originally Posted By: Big_T

Originally Posted By: jordsta

[quote=Binnie_Coll] I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.

but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.

but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an

Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy.

DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head.

Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison.

That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself.

Great post Jordsta. I didn't know Vario actually drove Desimone to his clipping! One thing though. Everyone time someone mentions how Paulie was nailing Karen Hill, I feel like grabbing an ice pick, and stabbing out my mind's eye!

Join the club lmao. DeSimone was scared of Gotti though, well I've always had the impression he was. Didn't DeSimone get himself locked up to protect himself after the Foxy murder because he was scared he was going to be killed by Gotti's crew and Vario was locked up, so he had no protection.

Sorry for derailing the subject.

For as the OP, did associates control made guys? Doubt that very much, otherwise there wouldn't of been much point in having that status. Albeit in certain score operations, maybe associates had control to a certain extent over them due to more knowledge on that specific operation? It's always a possibility that could've been the case.

I think you're right about Desimone being a little afraid of Gotti. As batshit crazy and reckless as Desimone was, I doubt that would have been the case if he was a made guy.