Joe Valachi question

I understand that he was a lower tier mafia guy and may not have known all that was going on in with the upper echelon.
But is it true that he knew absolutely nothing about the charts they made up during his testimony to the senate committee?

I'm reading deal with the devil right now and their making it like it was the f.b.i. And Greg scarpa who had that information about the five separate families and their structure.
Joe cargo was used as the frontman I guess you could say.

Is there truth to that?

Nobody knows for sure. They were both soliders, once with the Colombos the other with the Genovese... so why in the world would Scarpa know MUCH more than Valachi?

I believe those charts and a lot of other info came from MANY other FBI sources, some of which are probably not even known today, including illegal wiretaps, etc, etc.

All these were "put into" Vachali's mouth at the big commitee to make it appear as he was a key member of the WHOLE Cosa Nostra, not just his family.
Also Vito Genovese is known as "Don Vitone" there. I think that's just a name Costello called him, if anybody else in his family did it, I'm sure they'd be ground fertilizer the next day.

The only thing Valachi really brought to light was the name, "Cosa Nostra". The feds already had an idea of what they called themselves but couldn't figure out if it was Nostra, Nosca or some other stuff. After a conversation with one of his briefing agents, Valachi was asked what they called their organization, and one agent remarked, "I know it's Cosa..." basically baiting Valachi, in which Valachi responded, "Cosa Nostra, so you know it then."

The charts and pretty much everything else they'd had gathered from the illegal wiretaps placed by Hoover and Anslinger's black book.

Even if he was prepped for his committee testimony, it would be a strawman argument and dumb to suggest he knew nothing about the mafia after 30 years of service. I'm not sure if he brought anything new to the table but his recounting of the initiation ritual may have been something not heard before. His personal experiences were certainly real.

Thank you for responses.

I no at that time there were a lot of illegal wiretaps going on. Roemer talks about that in his book about Tony Accardo and that was Chicago so you no that it was being done in New York as well. Problem was, they couldn't be used in court. But they got a lot of valuable information that would help in the coming years.

Greg Scarpa: By far gave the Feds more(for decades) and had his hands in more, and was connected to more familys then any other rat in the history of the New York Mafia. " Hands down "

Sorry Joe V

I'm not done the book yet. But I still definitely agree with that statement.

His book sucked

Whose book? I think deal with devil is one of the better books that I read. If that's what your talking about.

Yeah but we're talking about 1963 here, Scarpa was little more than a buttonman... he couldn't POSSIBLY know the hierarchy of the 5 families.

I get you ,I did not mean it that way at all.
In the 60's Scarpa was working for the highest in government ,CIA Feds ect. and thats just what we know....And he knew most of the families leaders.

Hell he could have killed that KKK guy and then he would have done a hit for the CIA?Feds( can not remember) and got paid for it..

Valachi was living in Yonkers at the time of his last arrest. Cockeyed Nick Rattenni was the Genovese power in Westchester County at that time, and Valachi could barely give them anything on the guy. And he lived in his own backyard. That's very telling.

Cockeyed Nick was on Bobby Kennedy's personal hit list. He was mentioned in Kennedy's book "The Enemy Within," as Frank Cosetello's closest friend, or some bullshit like that (but they WERE very close).

Point being, the Feds would have delighted in putting him away. That Valachi didn't really name him speaks volumes. And it wasn't out of loyalty, it was because Valachi was kept at arm's length from Nick and his crew.

In my opinion, the Feds put AT LEAST half of Valachi's testimony in his mouth.

valachi knew a lot, if he was such a low level guy why was he so close to vito Genovese? vito was his best man at his wedding, also his wifes father or uncle, I forget which. gaetano reina, was boss of the luchesse family before he was shot and killed, giving valachi a friendship with Thomas luchesse.

valachi recounted many murders, and events that were true, he had an amazing memory, he was not as low-level as some would think.

he was present when maranzano created the five families, he knew a lot of people. greg scarpa was low-level when he first started ratting, but, he was the biggest rat of all, snitching for 3o years.

Daddio told me Joe Valache lived around the corner from us in the iron place barn when he was a kid.

On a Hun 7 between first ave and the east river.

The iron place was still there when I was a kid. It was a scrap iron business and they still used horses and carts to carry the stuff. When they left to work my friend Donnie and I would rob the place of anything of value that they had which wasn't much.

We and our other friends used to shoot the rats in that horse barn for fun.

They had a junk yard dog to protect the place. Later they just stopped buying them

I never said he was that low level. I just stated the absolute fact that he was kept at arm's length by some of the Family (namely the Bronx and Westchester wings).

Now I don't know if that information is available online or in a book, and I really don't care. Because that's how the Westside operates. Back then, and up until today. If you were a soldier, you knew your skipper. That's it. Simple as that. And that's the way it's SUPPOSED to be.

he may have been kept at arms length because he was a big heroin dealer. [good reason] and I would not doubt that hoover and the fbi schooled him a great deal.

Certainly this would be a good way to promote secrecy, and to keep the identities of other members and higher-up's secret from low-ranking members.

However, whether from movies or from books, I thought that during initiation ceremonies many (if not all) other members of the family, including the boss, would be in attendance and circle around the new members, who would then swear their loyalty to them

So, for instance, this =

Valachi gave the most well-known description of the ceremony:

“I sit down at the table. There is wine. Someone put a gun and a knife in front of me. The gun was a .38 and the knife was what we call a dagger. Maranzano [the boss] motions us up and we say some words in Italian. Then Joe Bonanno pricks my finger with a pin and squeezes until the blood comes out. What then happens, Mr. Maranzano says, ‘This blood means that we are now one Family. You live by the gun and the knife and you die by the gun and the knife.’”

Valachi was inducted with three others. There were about 40 members present, so the new initiates could “meet the family.”

All members of the family? You mean like 350-400 made guys in one place when the mob was in its heyday? That's the movies, and a bad movie at that.

There are cases of guys getting made with only two or three other guys in a room. In certain instances, guys have been made by the Underboss while the Boss was in prison or unavailable. And speaking of prison, a few guys have been made while in jail over the years.

At the MOST, we're talking about the Administration, the Skippers and the Inductees at the ceremony. Inviting more guys than necessary to a making ceremony only makes for more potential witnesses. Simple as that.

Yea I agree pizza that's what made me ask the question. Because not only would it be difficult for Joe Valachi to be able to name all them people in different families but that would be difficult for a boss as well.
Documentaries just make it seem like joe was the man who put all the lists and structures together. (Not saying he couldn't. But difficult for anyone, even with inside knowledge).

I guess all the books I'm reading are making me shine some new light to stuff I previously heard. But heard in different ways.
Just interesting to me.

Thanks again all.

I didn't do the math when I said the entire family! I was thinking maybe 20 to 30 people. Valachi quote above says 40 people.

However, how to contextualize the passing around of names of potential inductees for vetting by the other families? And what about the list of mob inductees that was found in John Gotti Jr's basement?

Which fits into what I posted: The Skippers, the Administration and the Inductees. Which, depending on the family, would be somewhere in that range.


How to contextualize that? Stupidity.

Stupidity is right lol

I thought the Feds prepared the charts and lists but I was wrong. The NYPD prepared the charts at the McClellan/Valachi hearings. Here's a transcript from the McClellan hearings with an NYPD inspector:

----------

The CHAIRMAN. Have you gone over the information that the committee has obtained and conferred with the staff regarding it, and also with this witness, Joe Valachi?
Mr. SHANLEY. I haven't conferred with the witness.
The CHAIRMAN. You never conferred with the witness?
Mr. SHANLEY. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. So what you are going to testify to here is not a
result of any conference you have had with Valachi ?
Mr. SHANLEY. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed.
----
Mr. ADLERMAN. "Will you explain how these charts were prepared, or were these charts prepared under your direction?
The CHAIRMAN. You have prepared some charts showing these different families that have been testified to here by the witness, have you?
Mr. SHANLEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you prepared charts showing known members in each of these families.
Mr. SHANLEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Then the charts that you are about to present here and testify to are charts showing the families that have been testified to here by the witness, and a number of the members of that family that are known to you in your official position in New York?
Mr. SHANLEY. Yes, sir.

Why, what's so offensive in the Don Vitone nickname to make him mad? Vito Cascio Ferro was called Don Vitazzu, many bosses named Giuseppe are called Don Peppino etc, it's not like Antonino "Ferocious dwarf" Imerti or Toto' "the short one" (u curtu) Riina (also known as "the beast").

Maybe it's not a good idea to call someone like Vito Genovese by their first name, even if you preface it with "Don".

In the many books I have read, referring to a don is a matter of respect. don umberto [albert Anastasia] don pepino [joe bananno] don carlo [carlo Gambino} don tomasino [Thomas luchesse] don vitone [vito Genovese] all these dons were called don, it was their title.

and soliders and capos referred to them as such.

I thought all dons are referred to by their first name, maybe not diminutive, like Don Toto' instead of Don Salvatore, but never by surname. The only examples where "don" precedes the surname are the Godfather movies.

By the way, do you think the Madison don Carlo Caputo could be called Hitler Kaputo in his face?

Also, Giovanni Brusca from Sicily: if called "Don Giovanni", that's an euphemism for "womanizer" in Italian.

I found The Apalachin Meeting (1957) by Albert Hitchcock a very believable movie. All the bosses from around the country, their closest lieutenants, major heroin dealers and reps from Sicily coming together to eat steak and make major decisions that would determine the mob's future during their heyday. I thought it was pretty realistic, but then again it was just a movie.

I know that you're joking, Sonny. But how did that movie end? Not so good from what I remember. Besides, that was more like a giant Commission meeting, hardly a making ceremony.

The movie did not end well. But the point I'm making is that mass meetings were not uncommon during the mob's heyday as they didn't seem to worry that much about being exposed as they do now. Back then the mob's presence was much more out in the open, that is what defined their heyday imo.

Fair enough. But a gathering like that today would be suicidal.

Maranzano seemed to be hosting annual mafia conventions. Hundreds were invited to a big hall on Washington Ave in the Bronx and another one in Wappinger Falls. J.Bonanno said about 300 attended Wappinger Falls. If Valachi was a bodyguard he would been an eyewitness. Of course this would be unthinkable years later.

Absolutely, and Sonny correctly pointed out that back then such meetings were more commonplace for a number of reasons. But I'm talking about right now and the recent past. Let's say post-Commission case, the last 25 years or so. Such meetings today would be retarded.

Yes but nobody really called him Don Vitone, people just called him Don Vito. That was just something Costello called him semi-offensively when Vito was bitching about too many non-Italians being involved in CN. I always thought it was something like ciccio - ciccione; Vito - Vitone.. sort of like a diminutive or belittling form.

PB man, how's it going, you still in FL? Been like 3 weeks we haven't talked.

Vitone literally means "big Vito", the opposite of a diminutive. The words in -ino are diminutive, those in -one are the opposite. For example, with the word "gatto" (cat):
gattino - little cat, kitten
gattone - big cat

But "ciccione" is a different thing: Ciccio is a diminutive of Francesco, but the word "ciccione" means also "fat one, fatty". Although there is also the word "grasso" for "fat".

That's an off-topic about Italian language though.

Good stuff Dwalin even tho off-topic
We always use ciccione to mean dumbass and gkey-aht to mean fat or chubby (don't know how to spell "gkey aht" chiatta maybe)

This has been floating around the web.



If its true Vito probably hated the one time it was used against him as a sword through the heart. Kinda like the way you nod at your worst enemy and tell him "riveting story champ."

Was it because of Campanian origins? Everybody who isn't Sicilian is a foreigner?

Cago was in the mob for more than 30 years. You can meet a lot of people in 30 years. I doubt he lied about the charts and knowing the names/faces. Not all families were as secretive as the Genovese family.

Not saying he lied about anything. Was saying that I read that he didn't really no as much as they made it seem.
Of course he probably made a lot of connections a knew a lot of people after three decades of service to "the life".
But Scarpa definitely had more inside knowledge and the illegal wiretaps were a big help as well for the FBI

Thanks again for all replies

In the early 1930s, through mob contact Dominick "The Gap" Petrilli, Valachi was introduced to the Cosa Nostra or Mafia, and soon became a soldier in the Reina Family (now known as the Lucchese Family) during the height of the Castellammarese War. Valachi fought on the side of Salvatore Maranzano, which eventually defeated the faction headed by rival Joe Masseria. After Masseria's murder, Valachi became a bodyguard for Maranzano. However, this position was short-lived, as Maranzano himself was murdered in 1931. Valachi then became a soldier in the family headed by Lucky Luciano (eventually known as the Genovese Family), in the crew headed by Anthony "Tony Bender" Strollo. Valachi remained in this position until the time he became an informer.

He was the son-in-law of Gaetano Reina, having married Reina's oldest daughter Mildred in July 1932, over the objections of her mother, brother, and uncles.

you're right redbullets the other the other families were not as secretive as the Genovese family was, also Valachi has begun with what would become the Lucchese family, also was not a soldier of such a low level as you may believe, since it was a friend of Vito Genovese that also made by best man.
Reading his earliest witnesses see who knew the five families but didn't give information on families outside of NY. For example, he didn't know that the family of Buffalo was called "The Arm" or that of Providence "The Office".

About the Sicilians they consider foreign anyone who is not Sicilian.
For the use of the word "Don", is used as a sign of respect even from me in Campania, but is only used by the old men. So once Eppolito visited Castellano in the 1980 spoke to him as Don Castellano, and Big Paul said "don castellano? we aren't in the Godfather?"

For Greg Scarpa is different when he accepted to cooperate with the FBI in 1962 to avoid prison was a soldier like many others, he eventually climbed the ranks to become in the third colombo war, the street man of Persico exploiting DeVecchio for information to kill 19 the men of Orena.

^^^yea furio it was incredible how Scarpa played the entire Colombo family like a master chess player. Blaming hits on the Orena faction and then blaming hits on the Persico faction. All the while feeding the lies to DeVecchio. I know Lin was sure to be up to no good with Scarpa but he was definetly still getting told lies as well.

Scarpa pretty much single handily started the third Colombo war. With the help of others but the others only reacting to what he is saying.

So I was reading that it's a possibility that when little Linda and her kid and Scarpa nearly were shot, that could have been made up. So Scarpa had justification for going out and killing.
I thought there were more witnesses then just the two of them?

Made up how? It never happened? I think it did. I remember watching this documentary on the Orena family and basically Orena's son said that Wild Bill Cutolo organized the hit on Scarpa which was botched. Now I know the son isn't a made guy, but still he should have some knowledge.
Or unless you mean he set it up with others so they'd fire blank rounds at them? I have no idea, honestly you never know with Scarpa. He was one clever, tough son of a bitch.

I was reading deal with the devil and they were talking about how it's a possibility that the attempted hit never took place. It was Scarpa that said it was guys from Wild Bills crew to DeVecchio.
That was the first time I heard that though. That why I brought it up. Little Linda said it happen, Greg said if happen. I just thought there were more witnesses.

Phillymob,the purpose of the FBI has always been to destroy La Cosa Nostra by any means, so as to destroy the Patriarca used at Bulger and Martorano,so DeVecchio has done his duty trying to destroy the Colombo family, on the one hand he will not be seemed true that Colombo began a war and that his protégé Greg Scarpa was in the center of the war; both have gained all: devecchio that from 1962 to 1993 in addition to sending several times in prison Persico has done arrest or kill dozens of men of the family, and Greg Scarpa not only avoiding various times to be indicted (so much so that there were suspects that he was a rat) but also did win his faction by killing 19 men of Orena.

It's hard to understand what you wrote here Furio (are you using Google Translate?). But if you are saying that DeVecchio himself was in fact the highest level of manipulation in the Scarpa saga, I am going to have to agree with that. Scarpa was the puppet, not DeVecchio.

I'm sure Costello probably meant they're all foreigners in the country they did business in.

It's crazy that DeVecchio was granted immunity from the indictments. But if they would of nailed him all the other Colombo arrests they made would be out the window.
It's a shitty system we go by. The system only works for those the government want to work for.

To the time frame with DeVecchio and Scarpa I think it was 1980-1994 up until Scarpa died. From 62-75 he was with two FBI handlers I forget their names right now. From 75-80 he pretty much had no contact with the FBI I believe.

That's exactly what he meant. It was meant as an ironic (and a little sarcastic) statement.

That "Don Vitone" quote came from "The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano." Anything that's in that book is suspect so that quote could have been made up by Martin Gosch himself and put in Luciano's mouth.

https://books.google.com/books?id=EV6jZzpjBOcC&pg=PT33&lpg=PT33&dq=foreigner+%22don+vitone%22&source=bl&ots=rM7-Aheuvy&sig=zKdnyx0yugNKcqkLsHMXiOPZW8U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0mnMVNfLAYmuogSOl4Jg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=foreigner%20%22don%20vitone%22&f=false

Sorry Alfa Romeo I use google translate only when I'm in a hurry.
what I meant is that the fbi especially after Hoover tried to destroy La Cosa Nostra without going too fussy, so he used Bulger to weaken the Patriarca, even Bulger helped put the microphones in the headquarters of Jerry Angiulo in the early 80s,in 1968 Peter Limone, Joseph Salvati, Henry Tameleo and Louis Greco were convicted for the murder of Edward "Teddy" Deegan, that was really committed by Vincent Flemmi that was helped by Barboza which was covered FBI agent Paul Rico.

In the case DeVecchio-Scarpa, there was a convergence of interests. Scarpa knew he could do what he wanted, and keep his backs up as long as gave good information to Devecchio, that could seriously from damage the Colombo.

From wikipedia

In 1985, federal prosecutors indicted Scarpa for running a major credit card scam. After Scarpa pleaded guilty, prosecutors asked the court to give him a sizable fine and a prison sentence. However, DeVecchio submitted a memo to the judge that listed all of Scarpa's contributions to the FBI. The judge finally sentenced Scarpa to five years probation with no prison time and a $10,000 fine. Colombo family members were so surprised by Scarpa's light sentence that some started wondering if he was working for the government

Scarpa's status as an informer was only revealed in 1995, during a racketeering and murder trial of seven members of the Orena faction. At that time, former Colombo family consigliere Carmine Sessa, now a government witness, told prosecutors about DeVecchio's unusual and corrupt relationship with Scarpa.Eventually, prosecutors were forced to reveal that DeVecchio might have revealed confidential information, including information about former Colombo wiseguys who had turned informer, to Scarpa. Ultimately, 19 Orena supporters had murder charges thrown out or murder convictions reversed after their attorneys contended DeVecchio's collaboration with Scarpa tainted the evidence against them. The attorneys argued that DeVecchio gave Scarpa information he used to kill members of the Orena faction, thus making any killings committed by their clients acts of self-defense.

Eventually both Scarpa that DeVecchio had what they wanted.
I hope I have written all right.