Can you become boss without killing?

So, I know a man can get his button without clipping anyone. But are there any examples of anyone rising all the way to the top without murder? I would imagine it would be easier to find examples more recently than in the past when mafia murders were more common.

I always thought you had to clip somebody to get in, it was a way of them having trust in you. when joe pistone [Donnie brasco ] was undercover. the fbi had to pull him out, because they wanted him to whack a guy, and then they were going to make him.

being an fbi agent he could not murder anyone, so, in the bonnanos he had to hit a guy before he was made. it seems like you had to "make your bones" in the old days. now, who knows.

That's the biggest myth of all: That you have to kill someone to get made. Even in the "old days," there were plenty of made guys who never pulled the trigger. The rule is that you have to be WILLING to kill for the family. Nothing more, nothing less.

Besides, even if you are in on a hit, it doesn't necessarily mean that you pulled the trigger yourself. You may have been in on the planning, or driven the crash car, or functioned as a lookout. But this is a topic that's been discussed here ad nauseam. Try the search feature. It's a great tool.

As far as the original question, has anyone become boss without hitting someone? It's possible. Especially today.

Peter Gotti

I nominate Frank Costello for that position. I mean, is there any factoid anywhere, even one single rumor, that the Prime Minister ever killed anyone?

I also hear no story that Paul Castellano was a Trigger-Man?

its the obvious choice. as far as i recall it, there is a statement by costello himself what said something like hitting someone on a occasion in new orleans infront of 50 or so people was the one and only violent act ever committed in his life.

Believe it or not.

Depends on the "organisations" values and image. Many other factors, but these basically are one of the most important in this type of question.

But does it mean that he was never involved in a murder in ANY way or just never pulled the trigger? Did he ever give orders to kill without physically taking part in it?

seriously? he was still the boss of a family, whaddya think? of course he ordered hits. thats nearly undeniable.

he just was never seen or even suspected! of pulling a trigger

but on the other hand, why should he? he was always very high ranking, he never actually needed to do the hits.

Yeah, the were very image conscious over at Murder Incorporated. I understand that Albert Anastasia had a top notch public relations firm in Manhattan doing his bidding. In an ironic twist, they missed the story about the Albert and the barbershop.

Some rats have said you don't actually need to be a trigger man. It doesn't matter if your standing watching or the getaway driver, simply because if the cops get u, everyone goes down for murder. So in that sense everyone involved is committing murder.

Well, that's all I was trying to say. But not every made guy even goes that far. There are plenty of White Collar earners who got their buttons without having taken part in a conspiracy, let alone having pulled the trigger.

Dwalin, I think mickey2 is saying that Frank Costello admitted to actually blasting someone in New Orleans. I would love to find that quote and would also like to know...what was he doing down in New Orleans.

oh **** he didn't "hit" the guy lol he kinda slapped him with a book or smth, nothing serious! i apologize

the guy he slapped was taking money from costellos slot machine organization that was based in new orleans and frank wanted to make it all clear that that was unacceptable. So he let the guy speak infront of all employees and then slapped him.

LOL!

"a mob boss said "lol" - i've seen everything on reddit"

he murdered the english language daily

Technically frank still "hit" him

I think what some of the others here are trying to say is that, even if Costello never personally killed anyone, as boss of that family he was culpable in every murder that took place during his reign. That's how the law would see it, anyway.

As far as how God sees it, or the moralists, or whatever, that's above my pay grade

Joey Merlino
Ray Patriarca jr
Junior Gotti
Little Allie Boy Persico

I don't think Ralph Natale ever pulled the trigger. If you consindet him a real boss.

I don't consider Ralph a boss but he's definately a killer, before he was a fake mobster he did kill a couple people.

Besides the Sodano murder, Natale admitted killing George Feeney in 1970, Joseph McGreal in 1973, conspiring to kill Louis "Louie Irish" DeLuca in 1990; Felix Bocchino and James "Jimmy Brooms" DiAddorio, in 1992, William Veasey in 1995 and Anthony Turra in 1998.

He admitted ordering the murder contract of Anthony Milicia, who was wounded, in 1996; conspiring to kill rival mob boss John Stanfa and his faction, which resulted in the 1993 wounding of his son, Joseph; the 1993 wounding of his underboss, Joseph Ciancaglini and of Leon "Yonnie" Lanzilotti.

I think that both Gotti jr and Patriarca jr never killed and they were made only because their fathers were the bosses same thing for
Allie Boy Persico.
I don't know if Joey Merlino never whacked personally a men,he looks like a bully not like a stone cold killer.
Someone knows if made his bones and who killed if ever killed someone ?

Well, at the very least, he tried. He shot the shit out of Scarfo Jr.

Any details on the events or who? I thought he was just an errand boy for Bruno/Union Leader/Drug Dealer.

What about the current bosses of the fie families? have they all killed someone?

There's bosses who haven't pulled the trigger and then there's bosses who have pulled it more than the guys who work for them. Most of those who haven't committed murder were named as successors by the former boss, usually out of nepotism or trust.

I dont think u can.Yes you dont have to to become made but to reach that high you have to be an earner and a feared guy.People talk about castelano but this guy came up during the prohibition and just say he didnt (which i personally think he has) the guy was a rare case where he was related to the boss.

I don't kno if I did the quote correctly but the above Is kind of what I am saying. I feel like yes you can/could be made without murder but especially until fairly recently I think it would be really hard to be boss. With a family of over 100 stone gangsters and probly 50 killers I just can't see just anyone commanding these individual's respect. Now I do understand in this day and age the situation is different.

How has no one said paul castellano? Even if it isnt true hed be the closet next to front boss ralph natale

I don't think that Gerry Angiulo ever was the triggerman in a hit based on what I've read and he was the most respected NE boss after Patriarca Sr. I'm pretty sure that he traveled down to Providence to pay tribute to Patriarca and get his blessing to operate in Boston. And over time, he inherited the top seat.

Joey Merlino sure as hell tried to kill a few people, Scarfo Jr. as mentioned earlier and I thought he was also part of the crew that left Joey Chang in the condition he is today (I could be wrong). I would tend to think that he has murdered someone.

Ralph Natale may have been a joker but he personally shot to death at least two people.

Before or during boss?

Obviously before, as I said "personally shot people to death" not too many bosses are running around shooting at people. When he was "boss" they also killed quite a few people but not blowing them away himself personally

Then again he wasnt the true boss...then theres castellano the most powerful mafioso in the country from 76-85

People think Paul didn't earn his promotions, and maybe he didn't, but it might be a mistake to imagine that he was just a gopher hiding in the shadows before becoming boss. Reason I say that is because of the era in which Big Paul was made. Back in the time he was straightened out, demonstrating the ability to whack someone was probably more important. It didn't matter if you looked like a coward. If you were ordered to knock someone off, you had to knockem off. Maybe obedience was more important a virtue to possess in the old days then sheer courage and toughness.

People get really off the wall when it comes to Big Paul. First of all, before he got into white collar crimes, he organized and oversaw the typical Mob activities, including gambling, loan-sharking, highjackings and extortion. Those are the blue collar stuff in which a guy overseeing it, has gotten his hands dirty time and time again. I think it's pretty far-fetched to have this belief that Paul Castellano never pulled a trigger in his day, especially in the life he lived. He didn't become the white-collar, business-man type of mobster until later on in his life after he had risen through the ranks considerably, much like Frank Costello. People always denigrate Castellano, as if he was this terrible boss and didn't know how to run his family because he'd rather sit in an office than be in the streets, as a boss. But at the same time in many instances, praise Costello for being the same way, Costello too was a tough guy according to many sources, but he saw the bigger picture, like Castellano and like Luciano before the both of them. You get farther in life with a suitcase and perhaps a gun, than you would with just the gun. The thing is when you have guys coming up under you, and they can't do some of the things you're capable of business wise, they're going to be intimidated and are always going to feel like you're taking extra pieces of the pie. And each Luciano, Costello & Castellano just lost sight of what they truly were, gangsters. They began to believe the hype that they were aristocrats and in some ways, better than the other criminals under them. That was their only fault.

But again, Castellano organized and oversaw the typical, blue-collar mob rackets that people referred to as being "the dirty work", he also knew killers, he had to by keeping Gilotti close to him and recruiting Roy DeMeo, and being able to sit down with the likes of Jimmy Coonan and Mickey Featherstone. If he knew killers, I don't doubt he was one back in his day before he became consigliere and boss.

But I don't think there are many bosses who never personally committed a murder. And committing a murder was never really in the qualifications list of being a made guy, I mean it was, but you could also get a pass and your button if you were simply involved in a hit, and contributed in some way other than pulling the trigger. Just look at Al D'Arco.

That's a very good point. But there have been made guys who didn't even take part in the planning of a hit. There's a youngish guy in New York right now who is absolutely revered by some people on these boards for being "old school," with "ties to Sicily," and yada yada yada. And I know for an absolute fact that he never even drove a crash car on a hit. And that's not a criticism because this is actually one of the street guys who I respect, and they're few and far between these days.

Now granted, things are different today. If you do the simple math, you'll find that there just haven't been enough hits in recent years to justify making every guy who got his button since the '90s (and that's factoring in five or so guys involved in each hit, which is stretching things a bit). But even in the old days, there were more than a handful of big money guys who got made for their earning potential and nothing more.

Are we talking about Frank Cali? Lol...And yeah, the numbers don't add up, especially if we're talking about modern times, I too doubt many of the guys made since the 90's "made their bones". There just hasn't been enough murders reported to support that, granted the body count isn't the end all be all way to be able to determine these things but it's a factor. And I personally don't see too many guys, mafiosi or just regular criminals, being well versed in making a body disappear on a normal basis. Because that's what would have to be happening if guys were still "making bones" to get their button. I'm sure some guys have still, but I think today, it's more about being earner.

Also if a guy is a huge money maker and is bringing in money like what Francese was pulling in with the gas scam the bosses would never risk losing or making a guy unhappy.A lot of these guys i would say at least 90% dont actually want to kill anyone they just want to make money and enjoy their lives i dont think there are a lot of John pappas and roy demeos out there who just cant wait to whack someone

Any stories or are we just taking your word Ralph?