Joey Chang

There is barely any information on the then youthful underboss after the assassination attempt that rendered him disabled.

His brother said that he can not walk and chew gum at the same time. As I understand it, he is partially blind and deaf, among other things.

Anyone have anything substantial about him post assassination attempt? Has he had anything to do with organised crime? Very doubtful. Would he have been boss material if it didn't go down the way it did? What kind of respect did he carry? He was only 33. Not much older than Leonetti when he became underboss; very youthful age.

I thought this post was about Chang Sr. because from the rumormill here, he was released today.

Boy, if that family isn't a cautionary tale about the life, nothing is.

100% PB, that family just amazes me about what all has gone on with it and still there is that dying loyalty to the s philly mafia, it says something about that neighborhood and the oaths that they took but in the same sense that family was destroyed brother by brother by it as well

No idea if he was boss material or not, but he wasn't exactly promoted to underboss due to his experience. Rather Stanfa wanted to make peace with the young guys. And I guess, joey Chang was the only capable guy who was friendly with Stanfa

Wasn't he given a pass and allowed to retire by the merlino faction, plus given his physical state I can safely say he had nothing to do with OC


Edit- Leonetti says how "heartbroken the father must be, and that he's a beautiful man, how hard it must be sitting there watching what was happening with his sons"

Just goes to show how much greed these guys have. They're willing to kill their flesh and blood just to gain power and ultimately the money that comes with it

I feel sorry for the mother , her husband in jail forever , 1 son still involved and 2 sons in the ground. Awful tale and definitive proof that life is not good

No idea if he's interested in becoming active or not, but it was reported somewhere during Nicky Jrs trial that he met with Joey Chang in 2007 I believe, to discuss taking over the Philly rackets. So the guy must be somewhat capable still, even if it's in name only. Obviously, nothing came of it though.

Are you sure that's the way you heard it? There was a report several years ago where Joseph Ciancaglini Sr. was advising Merlino and his guys from prison during the Stanfa war and THEIR attempt to take over Philly at the time. If I'm not mistaken, Joey Chang Jr. is partially paralyzed and barely walks with a cane. I couldn't believe he would be involved in anything LCN related at this point, or even in 2007. Like someone else mentioned, Joey gave him a pass after he took over the family.

And Dom, Mikey Chang is the only Ciancaglini that is dead. He was killed by Veasey and Colletti while walking with Merlino outside of their social club during the war with Stanfa. As mentioned, Joey Chang is paralyzed and was given a pass/shelved. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, their dad Joseph "Chickie" Ciancaglini Sr. was released into a halfway house in Philadelphia where he will finish his remaining six months.

Either way, their family has suffered tremendously as a result of LCN. Agree with Dom, you can't help but feel awful for their mother. But, like PB said, "you play, you pay".

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2001-06-30/news/0106300324_1_reputed-mobsters-mob-boss-buddha/2

Susan Lucibello, who worked in the restaurant, was the first witness called by defense attorneys. She described how she ducked behind the counter after seeing the gunmen and rushed to Joseph Ciancaglini's side after they left.

"Joey was face down in a pool of blood. I said, `Oh, my God, he's dead.' And then he sat up, and when he sat up blood was pouring out of his head."

An emergency medical technician arrived shortly thereafter, warning Ciancaglini at one point not to blow his nose for fear his brains might come out through the bullet holes. The EMT told police at the time that Ciancaglini said, "Tim did me."

Ciancaglini survived the shooting; he still has bullets lodged in him, is deaf and uses a walker.

I believe the mother passed away in the early 80's. Even before Chang Sr. went away.

Yeah pal sorry , that's wot I meant I dead I crippled and one still involved

Sorry posted this in another thread...

Regarding Chickie Chang and who he sided with. I did hear that he was advising the Merlino guys from Prison and Stanfa even was quoted as acknowledging that Chang Sr. was backing/advising Merlino and crew from jail. However, I have also read the opposite. Natalie's testimony indicated that Michael was "at odds with his brother Joey and his father" as you can read in this article. I tend to believe that he sided with Michael, but if anyone knows for sure then I'd be interested in hearing.

http://articles.philly.com/2001-04-03/ne...stanfa-mob-boss

Scott Burnstein has a good article about Philly 92-99 that covers the main parts of the war. He says that Chickie (sr) supported Mikey Chang and the rubout of Joey Chang (jr).

Maybe he can shed some light on it?

Is there a link to that Nicky ??

http://gangsterreport.com/back-at-war-philly-mob-conflict-recap-1992-1996/

Thanks Nicky, thought that's the way I heard the story as well. Supposedly Chickie was advising Merlino from prison even after he and Natale had taken over the family following Stanfa's arrest. I'm gonna have to search for that article and see if I can find it.

And PHL, thanks for the link to the Burnstein article.

No problem King. Coincidently, speaking of Bernstein on Chang Sr. He just posted this article on his site....

http://gangsterreport.com/philadelphia-m...nce-reagan-era/

So now Bernstein is saying two conflicting things about Chickie Sr. First article he mentions he supported Merlino and Mikey Chang now in this latest article he states he supported Joey Chang and Stanfa. Love the coverage but gotta get the story straight...

Yet, you are so fascinated with them. No shit they are greedy. Its almost like people on here are against what they do yet they post on here and want to know more.

Yea burnsteins site is kind of like the www.cosanostranews.com .
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading his site. Its no gangland.com but its not bad.

I read the thing I quoted at the bottom on Burnstein's site the other day, then read on his site this today?

Maybe Scott can clarify....

"Chickie Ciancaglini is reputed to have supported Stanfa and his son Joey in the conflict. Johnny Chang was pushing for a peace accord"

I found the most detailed court testimony of the grievous injuries suffered by Joey Chang, as relayed by the EMT that attended to him - Colleen Mitchell:

http://articles.philly.com/2001-04-24/ne...ny-joey-merlino

"I never saw anybody so injured who had the incredible strength this man did."

I have a new found respect solely for how f*ing tough this kid was.

I wonder if he is in a nursing home now or needs 24/7 care...

If Stanfa had'nt been arrested or killed, he may still be the boss today, in fact, i think Stanfa and Scarfo Sr. Would have been good friends and would of looked out for one another, especially during times of need. There is certainly nothing wrong with friendship and loyalty.
That rumor about Scarfo taking over Detroit is unfounded, although intriguing.

No he wouldn't have. Guys had begun going against him a month after he became boss. And it wasn't just Joey Merlino & Co. Had he not be arrested Stanfa would've been killed or chased out of Philly again.

I've realized reporting this stuff is very fluid. There have been things ive reported, and every other oc reporter probably, that turn out wrong when further info emerges in the future.

With that said, I put that one philly 90s Merlino-Stanfa war article up (which was initially part of my Mafia Prince/Phil Leonetti autobio proposal) and in that it reported that both Chickie and Chuckie Merlino were backing Ralph Natale-Joey Merlino's power play.

Since then, I've come across contrary intelligence that I believe to be true and that's why the more recent articles on the site reference Chickie not backing the move.

Ive been told by people directly involved in the high levels of that war that Chuckie was backing Natale-Joey , but Chickie was not, counseling that Joey and Mikey Chang should go under Stanfa and "stop making waves." I don't take that to necc mean that Chickie was siding against Joey and Mikey, but telling them to pipe down and not make the power play, which wound up killing one of his kids and maiming the other

Scott Burnstein

Mr. Scott is A LOT more informed than eddie boy. People bash the man when his views do not align with theirs. It's sad.

Pretty much.

Bottom line, Chickie Chang understands LCN. He knew Natale from back in the day. You gotta understand how Bruno operated to appreciate how Natale led everyone to believe he was somebody.

Bruno had several associates whom he was very close with. And this was because HE benefitted by the relationship. Natale was one of them. Bruno was very close with my neighbor and one of my family member, not because of LCN, just out of friendship. They weren't involved in that nonsense. But, they did provide him and his underlings with the ocassional alibi. It benefitted him. Sure, they could tell people they were helping Bruno, but what does that gain you if you are legitamite?? Nothing. Trust me.

Natale was expendable. He knew enough to do what Bruno wanted him to do. And he was in jail for a long time. And don't think he wasn't a killer, just because of the way he handles himself in a documentary. Rather, focus on his desire to let everyone know how badass he is/was. That speaks volumes about a person.

Chickie Chang knew that Natale was not who he was telling Merlino and Co. he was. How?? He was around all of the heavy guys for years. Brought up under Barracuda Sindone. He knew the rules about NYC and the commission. He must have been very nervous to know that the commission put Stanfa up, and his son was fighting that. He knew the consequences.

Ask yourself How a soldier inducts a man and then makes him boss? Chuckie Merlino couldn't stop Skinny from Jail. And he wasn't around Natale to know him well enough to speak about him. Just figured he was another associate with some power. But, he wasn't.

It goes to show you how much Chuckie really knew about how Philly LCN was working prior to Scarfo. It was Scarfo who taught him about LCN, from Atlantic City. Scarfo didn't need to know about Natale from Bruno. So, how does Chuckie allow his son to get wrapped up with this Natale. Very ill-advised.

I bet Scott Burnstein, if he asked Phil Leonetti about Natale, he would say "Who?" Or "he was around us. Did things for us". There was no upside to Natale NOT being made when he was doing things for Bruno, Like Papa Smurf. So, why wasn't he made?

Ask Serpiente about all the times Ralph Natale was hanging down with Scarfo and Chuckie in Atlantic City. Probably ZERO, ZILCH.

Phil Leonetti says in his book that Natale was just "Bruno's man in the Local 54 out in Camden" and later on "that he wasn't even made, so how could he be a boss?"


But that's a great post, NickyWhip. All facts.

Maybe Burnstein got one or two things wrong here and there.But the fbi has gotten a few things wrong as well.They didn't know the Chin was boss for years.It is the mafia and their intention is to be secretive.Burnstein,I believe, is the best source period for the Philly Mob.When he states he has been told by people "at high levels of the war" between Stanfa and Merlino I believe every word of it.He has worked with Leonetti and I am sure he has met and spoken with many more mobters

Thanks Sinatra.

@Memphis: Scott has some very good inside stuff. And he is able to connect the dots to make a plausible case for an opinion. And, ocasinally, he's gonna get something wrong. And, he was big enough to come on here & own it. For that alone, we all should cut him some slack. I try to be as polite as possible when pointing out discrepancies. What the fuck do I know???

At best, this is all anyone can hope to do, especially, since no one on this board is a member of LCN.

@NickyWhip,that is a great post indeed.Like Serpiente,I find all your post very informative.If I am not mistaken,Leonetti even stated that they warned Natale they would kill him at one point if he came back to Atlantic City.Maybe I am wrong but it seems that Natale was sort of like Frankie "Flowers" in that he was a big moneymaker with Bruno but Bruno never gave their "button" too.And they were untouchable under Bruno I suppose.And let me say you are not only "polite" as possisble but a gentleman infact.And I appreciate the shit out of yall guys that have and do live around these mobsters that I read about.

You're right. Natale was told to stay out of it. Frank Gerace ran that union for Scarfo. They were cousins. There was a ton of stuff going on at the Cherry Hill racetrack, that's where Natale worked. All walks going in and out. Can't help but make some connections. And I'm not discounting his relationship with Bruno; he did indeed have a good one. But, it was not a 50/50. more like 90/10

Here's what I think, from what I've heard over the years and what I've read -

Facts Scarfo was definitely on a direct collision course with Bruno. And it was all over power in AC. Scarfo didn't make an enemy out of Bruno, but rather played it very well. Lullabied him. Others have first hand witnessed that they were close and had meetings. They weren't alienated when Bruno met his demise.

Opinion: I think Scarfo was told by the Genovese, via Manna, to stay in the background; let them handle the situation. Be loyal and you will be rewarded. I think he knew the whole time that things were going to change; A power shift was coming. While, i'm sure the genovese never told him of their direct plan because he didn't need to know, he knew change was in the air.

At the end of the day, he capitalized on his situation. He was known as a very capable individual. And even if Natale had been on the street, I think he went down in 1978, he woulda disappeared.

Scarfo was well aware that Natale was a willing participant in the grab of Local 54. Scarfo put Gerace in and Bruno wanted Natale; but Scarfo beat him to the punch. The genovese and Chicago split that union after Bruno had it merged in an effort to get his guy (natale) in. And before Natale killed McGreal, it was McGreal with the union power.

EDIT- Frankie Flowers and Ralph Natale were not even close to being in the same league. Bruno genuinely respected Flowers. Joint Ventured and made a lot of money WITH him. From what I was told, by older guys who were very close to Flowers, he could have had his button, but was not into violence at all.

Anyone from Philly ever see Joey Chang around? Seems to be conflicting reports as to how severe his disability may be. I'm referring back to the mention on George Anastasia's site that claims Nicky Jr setup a meeting with Joey in 2007 to discuss taking over the Philly rackets. He must be of at least decent sound and mind for him to pose the offer?

Also,@NickyWhip.I'm pretty sure that Natale knew that Scarfo and Leonetti were not to be played with when it came to the unions.Look at McCullough and the roofers union.If I remember right,Bruno also had the other "chickie" in his ear,Narducci,who I believe would have eventually gotten Bruno to make a move against Scarfo and have him killed had Bruno lived.Narducci was a powerhouse as well,I believe.And it was Narducci that was actually in the background trying to muscle in his guys to get the union from Scarfo.Scarfo,was a damn smart gangster and seen it all coming.I also believe he was being fed info from Manna and did know that even though he and Bruno were on a collision course that Bruno had other problems.And as you said,stayed in the shadows and let it play out so once the move was made against Bruno he would step forward and be rewarded along with Phil Testa.I think Scarfo had plans to kill Narducci even before the move on Testa.

@Memphis - Chickie Narducci kind of confuses me. He was around that LCN shit for a long time. And he was a killer in his own right. There are at least 1 or 2 names from way back that he was accused of disposing. Yet, according to Leonetti, he didn't understand how things really worked.

I am not enamored by mob guys; I don't aspire to be like them. I am not involved in any kind of criminal activity. I am no police either. But, if you look at these guys like baseball trading cards, you can't ignore Scarfo's stats. The guy knew LCN inside and out. So much that he didn't start breaking the rules until after he came to power.

I know most think that Nicky sr. is a homicidal maniac . In his world he is not even close ,all the murders were justified .Now if you are a regular guy all but maybe Falcone / Salvie were the only ones that were not business.

But this little guy knew the moves in this life ,and just like Whip/Mafia are saying the writing was on the wall.
The "westside" seen all this coming ,the neighborhood falling apart in NY and much of the business heading to Jersey,and wanting it and giving back a little too get it.

I can tell you from being right there, and not knowing a dam thing of what was about to go down, that it was a frightening time for them, cos everyone was committing treason and not knowing the out come.The street was on lock down.They knew everyone coming and going.
Not one person out side of Nick and Phil could have known what Salerno/Caponigro were up to if they even knew through Manna.
But I do know like I said ,it was a scary time ,cos Bruno was going to make a move on Nick ,and this we all did know.(the lil guy was getting to big)

But if all this was planed it may be the best triple cross ever.

And yes jr.was going to take a shot at taking rackets from Philly I don't know if taking over the Philly family was what he was doing(Maybe taking the good rackets)and don't think for one minute that some Philly guys were not with him. He did have a good amount, and heavy guys with him from quite a few places.

Serpiente - You and your friends must be sitting on a bunch of wild stories about those days.

Two of the best Philly posters on this site. I put them in the same class as Chucky/Philly from the other sites (who I wish would post here).

PB : Thanks, but you know like I know, when you are in it, it's not like it is different.
Looking back and posting here, makes ya feel like it was someone else,cos it not like what people are reading here,you are living it does not seam important ,it is and was everyday life.

I hope that came out right , not good at putting words to paper.

Pizza: what's the other board? I'd love to join another quality thread(s) on NY and Philly especially... I sort of feel like some good posters have left or stopped posting as much on this forum for various reasons... Tried to PM you and didn't work btw... Thanks!

Jersey shore or the Long Island Sound. Different waters, same scores.

You grew up with it, or you read about it online. And if you've spent five minutes around the life, it's very easy to differentiate between the two.

As an aside, I'm not taking a shot at the serious researchers here. Guys like Ivy and Hairy contribute things that I'd never be able to research in a million years, nor would I try.

I post what I believe to be true about an area I've lived in, and people who I've known, for more than fifty years. And I never post anything remotely incriminating about people who are still alive and/or on the street.

The fastest way to get outed on a site like this is to be from, say, New York, then claim to have intimate knowledge of Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Montreal, and everywhere else. Because the average street guy's world is no bigger than his zip code. And in this day and age he's not gonna know shit about LCN activity outside his own backyard.

Nicky : I did not know how fun, crazy, exciting, important, dangerous it was.
It's not till I was stuck home a few years back(surgery) and found this site that I realized people were into the life.
I know it sounds stupid ,but true.
And yes when we get together it is a blast ,and we still do get out and go away ,well the ones that are alive or on the street.

The best part is the walks of life we all have taken from gangster to school teacher to trash man....
And no I am not the trash man (not that there is anything wrong with that)
We came up in a small town that was in ruins and watched it grow to a fun and great place for a male to grow up in.
Most don't know but pretty much we ran this town, and LE had no problem with it as long as we did it right.

Yes" I agree 100% I don't even read the paper ,let alone research.....

Thanks PB. How's your dad doing? Better I hope. I didn't know all the books were out there on Philly mob stuff. But, once I found this site and started reading stuff, all those stories I heard and things I saw started making sense. And Once I saw the Stuff Serp was saying, well, let's just say I know he ain't a researcher. Hard knocks. He's in between my age and my older neighbor and family persons age.

@PizzaBoy,make no mistake I have been a member here over 2 years but stayed on the sidelines reading much longer.And I value your word on all the New York families just the same.Many years now I have set down with dinner and just read what yall guys up there have grown up around.Pretty damn interesting stuff.Serpiente,really the way you tell the way your neighborhood was on alert,I can almost picture it in my mind.I agree with Nickywhip,that must have been pretty crazy around the time Bruno was killed and Scarfo and Leonetti were taking over.Must be great stories,indeed

One of those Philly mob docs has a photo of Joey Chang, walking next to someone and he's walking with a cane in one hand. Which implied to me that the photo may have been from after his shooting. He didn't look that bad other than an obvious limp. But then again, that picture could totally be prior to his assassination attempt.


And I think Scarfo messed up with the Frankie Flowers hit. Like Whip said, and from what I've read, D'Alfonso wasn't a violent guy. And in Caramandi's book, he says before he was killed, he was called in by him and Iannece and that they asked him if he was on good terms with "the little guy" and he said he was. Which means he didn't expect to be killed or that he had a real problem. One of his underlings was selling drugs or something, and either wouldn't pay the tax, or owed some money. And being D'Alfonso's responsibility, he caught the brunt of the retribution. Shame because according to Caramandi, D'Alfonso had numerous sitdowns over the kid and vouched for his life. And he just kept side stepping and got his guy killed. You kind of feel bad for Frankie Flowers, if all that stuff is true.

If PB hasn't messaged it to you, I will, just let me know.


Interesting thing is though, I damn near repeated almost word for word some of what Whip said and a few things from Scotts article in a Trevor McDonald thread over there, and Philly disagreed, to say the least. I think Whip is right though. And its not like I really know, but from all I've come to know about Natale, pretty much points to that. From the "I married a Mobster" episode the girl did on him, in which she also says he mislead her into believing he was something he wasn't. The various Philly mob docs. And Natale's testimony and the counter defense Merlinos team threw at him, which is recorded in various Philly.com articles, it supports pretty much all of it and my sentiments about Natale.

I don't know why he was killed,but he would not pay the right amount of moneys that he was supposed to Period .
In that life and your making money and the boss says thousand a day it's a thousand a day.
Nick was not playing after he gave the guy a hundred chances.
It's the life they chose ,they make ten thousand a day ,you got to pay the boss.

I apologize for that, Pal. It's not you personally. You seem like a nice and respectful kid. But there's a poster here who takes perverse pleasure in fooling people old enough to be his father, then taking their private messages and hacking their email accounts. I don't want to get into the whole thing again because it's been dead for a while now, so let's let sleeping dogs lie there.

On a lighter note, Sinatra Club has kindly offered to reply to your pm with the information that you're seeking. He's a quality poster and I vouch for him a hundred percent.

In closing, hopefully, the day will come when they lock this menace up and I can open my pm again. Until then, there's always the open board. And thank you for the kind words.

PB

never personally saw the guy (I would guess he lives a pretty low key life,) but I have been told by several people he is a huge mess and to this day he can't walk without crutches.

Bingo, just had to quote this for truth. And to emphasize again that Nicky sr was not just some mad hatter serial murderer. He ruled in a violent, treacherous time, and was 100% rules first, by the book. The only hit that went down on his watch that really threw people for a loop was Testa, and honestly I'm sure he wasn't the first guy in history to get it for being too big for his britches.

Was Testa really "too big for his britches" though? From all that's said about him, he was %100 loyal to Scarfo and had no qualms with playing his position. That newspaper article got him in trouble, and it isn't like he said any of it, its what the author viewed, I guess. Other than calling off a wedding, which he shouldn't have been killed for, the guy just fell out of love apparently. He followed CN rules to a tee. By all accounts it was Scarfo being insecure, he felt threatened by Testa, his lineage, his wit, his loyal crew, apparently his neighborhood loved him. Or was there more to it, Philly guys?

Jesus Christ, if you're killed for essentially being too good of a wise guy.

Well you all so had guys in his ear,and those guys wanted Sal's rackets if he was out of the picture.
Yogi was in Nicks ear all the time for his brother of course.
Them guys were ruthless if you had rackets that if they had anyway to get in the ear of the boss ,thats what was going to happen.

Down right ruthless,each and everyday they are in that life,till they get to skipper then they had a little breathing room and then you see what they did to Salvi .

I don't know if it was so much insecure, as it was watching the rise of Bruno, and then that fall,if you were boss and all the treacherous moves that just went down and the ones he seen before that. Damm you or I may be on guard also.
Two bosses dead right before you would make me on guard.

I honestly feel that Leonetti played a larger role in Testa's death.He thought he "Leonetti" was the future of the family.He watched as Testa avenged his fathers death and killed the guys who were involved including the previously mentioned powerhouse Narducci.He watched as Salvie built an incredibly loyal,young,ruthless crew.He watched as Salvie and this same crew not only were the front lines of the Riccobene war.But his crew alone won the war.Then Leonetti watched as Salvie Testa was written about in wall street Journal and described as the "future" of Philly mob.Leonetti's jealousy peaked and then he watched finally as Testa was engaged to Merlino's daughter and saw this as a final power play.Now,I am not saying that Scarfo was not weary and watchful over Testa.But in my heart I truly feel Leonetti,so ruthless,was the one who pushed his uncle out of fear and jealousy.Nicky "Crow" and Tommy Del sort of touch on this.

In terms of my sources, I'm admittedly unique. Not many authors, especially at my age (37) have been published in writing about three diff mafia families (Det, Chi, Phil). I'm lucky to have done it. and from those endeavors and George Anastasia being my mentor/penning the Crazy Phil autobio and me spending the 2000s living in Chi & working for the Illiois Atty Gen's Office, ive got pretty good sources in all three cities - for those who don't know Det is my hometown and current place of residence. Now, Ive also reported having sources in New England, which right now are my weakest crop, but I think improving. My connection to Boston/Prov comes from me having a good deal of family in the area, trying unsuccessfully to get Cadillac Frank's autobio off the ground, my two cousin cops in Massachusetts "Staties" introducing me to some sources and getting a few LE contacts there via other LE contacts I already had. Its been an interesting ride this past decade. I can understand some of the doubters saying "how the fuck does this dude in Detroit know whats up in Philly, etc."


Scott Burnstein

MemphisMafia, interesting theory and not at all crazy. Leonetti and Salvie were both young guys, they were both the future of the family. It's possible Leonetti had a great deal of influence in the killing.


As for Salvie being loyal, sure, that's what's written everywhere... But does that stop Nicky Scarfo from believing(and possible be right) that Salvie will make a move on him in next 5 or 10 years? Young guy, very powerful. Nicky being the way he is, he probably thought that Salvie will for sure move on him and he decided to nip it in the bud, before Salvie even gets a chance to think about it.


And great posts NickyWhip&Serpiente, good stuff!

Leonetti, Caramandi, DelGiorno, Gino Milano, Yogi Merlino, all of these guys, mainly the first three have all said Salvie wouldn't of moved against Nicky Scarfo. Scarfo was like a father to him, according to these guys and an uprising was the last thing on Salvie Testa's mind.

@ ScottBurnstein:

Scott make no mistake your contributions are appreciated. Very much so.

But you use sources, which in this game, are open to compromise, conjecture, misdirection, conflict of interest etc etc. So, in company of the top posters on this board, your words are appreciated, and taken with gratitude but also, understandably with a modicum of healthy scepticism.

It isn't personal. Nobody's word should be taken as gospel. And that's a good thing. Valid debate is healthy. Your contributions are respected, but not infallible is all

My personal thanks for your website. A valued read.

Great thread. At least the last few posts.

Thanks to the both of you Sinatra and PB!

NP. Again, if you want the site, just shoot me a personal message.

I completely agree with what Serp's been saying. First, I think that Scarfo being the homicidal maniac that everyone says is all relative. All of Scarfo's hits were legit according to the "rules". While I think the Salvi Testa hit was probably a bad move on his part in the grand scheme of things (he was a real asset to the family), it was at the end of the day legit if you take "honor" and "respect" of the life into account. I also read that Salvie was being abrasive with Scarfo and even spit in the face of Chuckie Merlino. When you start disrespecting the boss and underboss then yeah you can call that "too big for his britches". If you compare Scarfo to Anthony Gaspipe Casso, Vic Amuso, John Gotti, Gravano, etc, they make Scarfo look like the minor leagues. It's just part of the life and like Serp said, the 80s were a treacherous time. I also agree that Scarfo watched what happened to Bruno and Testa in the two years before he became boss and just seeing that would make anyone a little paranoid or quick to squash any potential threats... still within rules too! Anyways, I think for all the flack Scarfo takes for being a bad boss and all that, in my humble opinion I think he was actually one of the better ones as far LCN. Sure, different style than Bruno, but for what it's worth he was LCN and followed the rules and was all business and maintained alot of power and made a lot of money for he and the family.

Sinatra: Sent you a PM. Thanks again!

@Snakes,it is a great thread indeed.And the posters here that pay attention know that when it comes to Chicago you are very well informed and a great poster in general.@Phil Mob,I haven't heard about the spitting incident.That alone would be enough to have Testa killed surely.I don't believe it happened.I am sure that it was made as an excuse to kill him.But from all accounts Testa was very much loyal to Cosa Nostra and just would not do that to the underboss.Scarfo,as stated above by Serpiente,I believe,did not break the rules either until after he became boss.According to Leonetti,the only time prior to his becoming boss that he did balk at the rules was toward the end of Bruno.Bruno approached Scarfo and attempting to make a case to kill Phil Testa tried to influence Scarfo to turn on Testa.Scarfo,via Manna,already knew some changes were coming,didn't bite.At this time Bruno started throwing "curves" at Scarfo to the point that Scarfo started calling Bruno "lefty".Scarfo told Leonetti that if Bruno threw them another Curve on the unions that there would be "resistance" and that he "Scarfo",was not backing down.Other than that Leonetti had never heard him backbite the boss.After he became boss,he threw all the rules out the window to the point I don't think you could compare him to the other Bosses mentioned above.During the Riccobene war,there were two soldiers killed in front of their mothers and one of the poor old ladies was hit in the head with the butt of a shotgun.After finding out Joe Salerno would be taking the stand again Scarfo had a hit on his elderly father who was a citizen.He lived.But it went against all the rules.He ordered Salvie Testa be killed at a funeral home during the wake of a family member of one of his soldiers.Just pathetic.He ordered his wifes neck be cut ear to ear for gambling his money.There are many more examples.And Leonetti should be rotting away with him

That may have been Chuckie Merlino who wanted it done at the funeral home. I'm not too sure on that though, could've very well had been Scarfo. And I agree that Scarfo wasn't some homicidal serial killer. All the deaths under his reign, aside from the Joe Salerno thing were all mafia guys or guys who made careers in the underworld, like Frankie Flowers and Mickey Coco. Its funny because the docs will claim Scarfo violated and began killing innocents when he killed Vince Falcone. But they don't mention that Falcone was a wannabe wise guy himself.

@Sinatra,Falcone was absolutely part of that life.The guy never should have came around Atlantic City again once he badmouthed Scarfo and Leonetti.And I agree that the elder Salerno shooting aside,these were all pretty much mob matters when Scarfo ordered them killed.Merlino did love the idea and decided that the funeral home would be the place in which to Kill Testa.But ultimately the ok came from Scarfo on that.Scarfo though became ruthless and paranoid to the extent that it was just no more (and I use this word loosely) honor.He ordered lifelong friends Nick "the Blade" Virgilio and even his longer friend and underboss Merlinokilled because their drinking was getting out of hand.Yet his own son was even arrested around this same time for drinking and driving or underage drinking.Cant remember.I mean Gotti had a couple of dui arrest and I assure you Big Paul,who probally didn't even like Gotti at this time,much less had been a lifelong friend,never even entertained the thought ofkilling him over it.Scarfo even ordered Chuckie Merlino's brother killed if he came to Atlantic City because of it.The Testa killing,from what I have read,along with everything else,made the soldiers in this family want to run to the feds to cut deals out of fear of being killed for practically nothing.Scarfo was smart.He was a true gangster in every sense.He could have had a long run in which he controlled Atlantic City and Philly.It should have been beautiful.But the Salerno thing,something like that will make the feds come hard and become relentless.His soldiers no longer respected him.Scarfo just became "drunk" with the power and just ruined that family.He was a better and smarter gangster than that.He just became too paranoid.I love tho think what could have been.Salvie Testa was excactly what that Wall Street Journal article said.Even more.At 28 years old,he was a capo.But if you look at his crew,they were all young,loyal and stone cold killers.Pungitore,the Grandes,The Narduccis,Gino Milano,Nicky Whip,I believe the Scafidis.These guys all made name for themselves as mobsters.Most of them as I mentioned before had already seen war with the Riccobenes and had handled it well.Infact had won the war.And Salvie,As Nicky "Crow" stated,while only 28 was much more street smart than most already because of his father.If Salvie had lived and if Salvie had wanted he probally very well could have taken over that family with this crew.Scarfo and Leonetti realized this,ofcourse

Vince was no good .He was a big mouth ,back stabbing J/O .He treated woman like shit and his so called friends the same.
He did not get "hit"for just coming back around ,he was talking shit to anybody that would listen.
Phil took a liken to him,(how I have no idea) and knew the concrete bizz.(they needed someone for that)But him and Phil hung out for a pretty long time ,and they were doing shit here and there.I know the Philly guys that came down did not like this guy.
He was the kind of guy that you would not like the first night you spent time with him.(trust me)
The time he was around was a pretty busy time for the family, and there was a lot of talk going in his ears,The guys would drink and start talking in the bars and in the clubs(the Blade was the worst),he would hear shit, then he would turn around and tell it to his boys same night(could not be trusted)this is when Nicky found this out and he was hot,cos he was letting this guy close.(to close)Nick was close to letting him on a crew.
That's when they started to plant stuff in his ear(set him up) ,and when it came back that was it,Nick hated him that second.
And once he did not like something ,that was it..

The thing that gets me is once these guys turned on him he kept coming back and running that mouth .The guys treated him like shit on the street and in the bars and clubs,and he knew it.
The guys he hung with told him he was not liked and he talked to much .
The main thing is he did a couple things with Phil ,and Phil and others said a few things he should not have.And that's what got that guy killed.
If he did not have that big mouth they would have never herd about this guy,there was three cement contractors in two blocks from Nick,that's how hard this guy pushed to get close,Nick could have gotten any one of them in a second.

Serp, can you say anymore about the Philly guys with Jr? Are these well known Philly members or associates? Were these people close with Merlino and his crew?

What age was Vince Falcone? His then wife is Leonetti's current wife, right?

If he would have been the same age as Leonetti now then he would have been pretty young when he was killed.

He may have treated women like shit but the way Scarfo's kid, Testa's kid and Merlino treated women is pretty common knowledge. He can't have been any worse than them.

And Scarfo Sr's temper would have made him a liability anywhere else other than Philly, no?

That's why he was banished to Atlantic City wasn't it?

I mean he built his reputation with violence, didn't he? Way he stabbed that sailor to death that time.

I don't know what this threads about anymore. Guy got shot a lot and hasn't been in philly I read in 20 years. His dads back around bmaybe him to. I read Joe was down myrtle beach and sent some flowers to some old gangsters wake who died a few years back.if you take veaseys book for what its worth he was around stanfa with a chalk board trying to kill his brother. And would drive to Michael grave and piss. Veasey killed mike in august 93 got made in September and was wearing a wire by Christmas so he may if its true he got made turned rat faster then anyone.

At least Veasey & Previte didn't pretend they had any loyalties like some people.

By all accounts, The Oregon Diner thing was something that really wasn't Scarfo's fault. Of course the pro-government documentaries like to paint it that way. Nicky and a few of his guys sat down in a diner after the guy got up from the seat. It doesnt seem as if they knew he was sitting there. The guy comes back and typical asshole "this is my seat, get out my seat" shit, in a public place with no designated seats. Either way, he was a big guy, was getting the best of Scarfo, was basically choking him to death and in his defense, Scarfo stabbed him with the first thing he grabbed.

And again,pro-fed docs. Nicky Scarfo & Angelo Bruno were actually pretty close according to guys like Caramandi, Tommy Del & Leonetti. And they fell out toward the end. Over AC, over Phil Testa & when Philly CN began turning on Bruno. The paperclip thing has a few different interpretations, Caramandi interprets it one way, Leonetti another and Anastasia another. Caramandi & Leonettis however doesn't seem as negative as Anastasia's view of things.

Nicky Scarfo's family, including the Piccolo's, had established themselves in AC since like the 50's. So Scarfo always had somewhat of a base there. I've come to see the "banishment to AC" thing, as more of a mob myth than anything. Again, considering how long the Piccolo's/Leonetti's/Scarfo's actually had been there.

Curiosity: I could not answer that if I knew first hand.
But I will say this ,His dad was boss and had many supporters and friends .These people just don't move away ,they may lay low.
They may just follow the new guys.They even do there own thing. This is a big area south Jersey and north jersey Philly also.
So there were people out there that support anything but what was going on the last 20 years.(I don't know how half the guys in Philly are recognized,the way they made each other)
All those people still live here(and Philly) or they are from Philly and there sisters or brothers live here,and we all still go to same partys and same beaches or casino or night clubs,you hear things.
And you never ask a name or elaborate.

I've heard he's not nearly as physically damaged as it is made out to be, but is shunned by the guys in and around that life.

I wonder what kind of relationship (if any) he has with his brother, considering the guys his brother runs with are responsible for what happened to him.

He was at work in the early hours of the morning when the assassination attempt happened, so I am assuming that he has a stronger work ethic than most wiseguys.

So I wonder if he's still working in the restaurant business in any capacity.

That was Joey's routine. And he had to be open that early, he served breakfast and lunch to the truckers and workers along that block, as well as his fellow Stanfa faction guys. And the place he operated was only open from around 7-8 AM to 3 PM, at which point, he'd lock that place up, walk down the block and spend the rest of the day with Stanfa & the other guys, at Stanfa's company warehouse.

Always found it odd with regard to the Joey Chang hit, that working alongside him that morning was Susan Lucibello, Gaeton Lucibello's wife. I know Lucibello was a Stanfa guy at one point before flipping sides. Pretty sure the hit took place after that timeframe. Seems odd that no one gave Gaeton a subtle heads up to maybe keep the old lady home that day?

And someone mentioned above about Joey going and pissing on his brothers grave. It was also mentioned somewhere that Joey Chang still hung around the Stanfa guys even after being shot. Can't remember where I read it, but apparently he had it out for his brother until his final day.

A book on the Ciancaglini family would be absolutely fascinating. Won't ever happen unless one of them agrees to cooperate one day, which seems highly unlikely at this point.

Still can't get used to people calling Ciancaglini "Chang". This sounds like a Chinese surname Joe Chang, Jackie Chan, Teddy Wang etc

If it was just that, Falcone maybe could have been considered an innocent victim. But he was a murderer: he and Leonetti killed Louis DeMarco in 1976, at least Leonetti in his book says Falcone did in fact even shoot DeMarco personally along with Leonetti, he wasn't just a getaway driver or fingerman.

Dwalin > or anyone ,I read that book at the beach over a couple days or more. But I don't recall him telling that .
Also did he tell who killed Pepa Leva .
There are a couple things in the book that are true that we thought were not and the other way around.

Cos those two murders were done with the people in AC knowing lots about before and after what was going on. Not like the others that were more LCN type .Most people out side of there made guys did not know about the people or the drama involved.

I bought it in Italian, however there is a sentence which says something like "me and Vince unloaded our pistols on him" or something like that.

Thanks, did it say anything about Pepa Leva ?

I don't remember, but I haven't finished it yet anyway. Later will tell you if I notice something about this in the book.

Alfredo Ferraro killed Pepe Leva, according to this report.

Page 27 of 105 on the PDF

http://www.state.nj.us/sci/pdf/ocbars2.pdf

Whip: thanks ,,I was wondering what Phil put out there,I pretty sure it was not Al ,now it could have been ,but I always herd different from that.

Yeah Leonetti and Vince Falcone supposedly shot Lou Demarco in a hotel parking lot in AC for Chickie Narducci bc DeMarco was stealing from
chickie's card games back in Philly. Demarco was hiding out in AC.

In Mafia Prince, Leonetti says both he & Falcone emptied their pistols into DeMarco. He says, he fired the first shot to his head which sent the guy to the ground, then he and Falcone just emptied their clips. According to Leonetti.

He also doesn't say who killed Pepe Leva, just that it was "a guy from our family".

Hmmm just what I thought , it has been a who's who for all these years,still don't know.

The Leva murder went down one night after an argument and somebody took him for a ride out to a pit and I believe shot him right there.

Would have probably sent alarm bells ringing in Joey's head.

Which brother made the first move? Like what the hell could prompt them to try to kill each other

The attempted hit on Joey was in retaliation for the first attempted hit on Michael, wasn't it?

Who knows actually. Michael Chang claimed that he recognized his brother as one of the shooters in the attempted hit on him when he was walking home from the basketball court. But they supposedly were wearing masks, in a situation like that, getting a positive identification isn't as easy to some. But it was his brother, he'd notice him before anyone else would, but who knows...I don't think Joey Chang was one of the shooters in that, personally speaking.

I wonder what happened between Joey and Mike that made them hate each other with such fervent disdain.

I get it. They were on opposite sides of the fence. But that's business. Their hatred seemed more personal.

I personally think if the Merlino faction had any nous they could have taken over from the Stanfa faction by playing the waiting game.

The guys around Stanfa were not loyal. Stanfa was patient with the Merlino guys and probably would've liked to have them on side.

Instead they had to have everything straight away. And look where it got all of them. 10 year prison sentences and so much bloodshed.

Who outside Philly would abide this?

Seems to be a lot of conflicting reports about Joey's health. Everyone seems to know everyone's business there. Joey mustn't get out a lot if people still don't know his health situation. Maybe he lives out of state now.

mikey hated joey because in 1992 someone chased mikey down a street a guy carrying a shotgun. Mikey said it was joey who did it.


if johnny chang was on the streets i doubt they would have tried to kill each other

in 2008 scarfo junior tried to recruit joey chang according to an FBI agent in the scarfo trial it is not clear if joey chang accepted

Handsome stevie or whoever had the pics from Johnny Changs party, can you post them now that that crazy bitch claiming to be his wife is gone? dying to see that shit

Some guy posted a pic that anyone could have gotten from KC's Facebook. He deleted his account right after. I don't think anyone has more pics.

Wasnt me buddy or I would have posted them already, sorry! ill try to look around for them though.

Ahh no worries dude, you always post the best philly pics, so I figured it was you that had mentioned em..If that fuckin wackjob was legit that did mention them he should posted them before he went apeshit and then Fake johnny changs wife got all keyboard tuff

Don't really mind the fact we may not see them.

That was definitely Kathy Chang that was posting...

No it wasn't. SC, the forum admin had banned the "kathy_chang" account because it shared the same IP as the "BigMomma" account. And the "BigMomma" account wasn't Kathy Chang. Not to mention, the Kathy Chang account specifically referred to Steve Mazzone as Handsome Stevie when it was said nobody on the street calls him that.

Wonder what Johnny Chang would of done if he was out during that time period when his brothers had beef. Wonder what he thought then and now ( I bet he has a totally different look now.

What happen with Kathy posting ? (Must of missed that) what was the issue ?

trust me on this .....there is NO KATHY FUCKING CHANG!!!!

No shittttt. I was wondering what this "Kathy " was posting I didn't see

i'm really sorry for the the way i conduct my self on here, im still learning after all this time..i do not know how to start a new post ..asshole me..anyways, i wanted to say that salvie(testa) may have brought this famiglia to a peace thing if he was alive & willing ...fuck lil nicky & his despotic ways..salvie & or phil could have made it into a nice thing circa bruno days..

Sad, sad situation, but the oath states that "family" comes first.

Look it up, it's out there. He discussed it with Big Ron Previte and it was captured on wiretap. Johnny Chang didn't and probably still doesn't like the fact his brothers went against each other and he felt that out of everything, his family was the only ones to suffer from it.


And it wasn't Kathy Chang.

this is how johnny chang felt about it

http://articles.philly.com/2001-05-11/ne...ny-joey-merlino


i recommend prevites book though i do not like previte its a good insight into the merlino crew