Was John Gotti afraid of the Chin

Well we know Gotti figured Gigante was the only one who would possibly seek revenge for "slaying a boss" since he's a real " stickler for the rules", but figured he had no problems with (Massino) Bonanno, (vic orena/ Donnie shacks/ Gerry Lang) columbo, gas and amuso (luchese).

But Gotti went and did it anyway however this doesn't mean he wasn't afraid of Gigante. Rather, according to Sammy, John told him "he's (Chin) too smart to fuk with us"

However down the line, Decicco was killed but at the time again according to Sammy "we had no idea who did it"

But surely this must have been crystal clear once the Feds warned Gotti the Westside was looking to whack him.

Then, Bobby Manna was taped in his restaurant toilet talking about whacking John and Gene.

I'm sure by then Gotti figured out the Chin must have been responsible for the Decicco hit too but instead of retaliating, Gotti sends word through Gravano that there are no ill
feelings

And they later met for a commission meeting in that apartment complex, where Gotti told Chin he had no problems with him

And Chin played dumb saying Manna and others plotted off the record unbeknown to him.

Gotti liked to portray himself as tough and fearless but truth is, he feared many guys

His brother Gene was taped saying his brother John didn't want to whack Demeo due to the "army of killers" around Roy

And again I think he was scared of Gigante too. whereby in contrast Gigante was not scared of Gotti in the slightest

That Irish hoodlum Eddie Maloney claims a young Gigante was seen as a "star" in prison because of the failed assassination on Costello

Gigante was a bum at this time and "if he had the balls to go after a guy like Costello he had the balls to whack anyone" says Maloney

Everyone is afraid of someone. If you meet someone who says otherwise, they're either lying or they're crazy. Now having said that, I don't know if Gotti feared Chin. Only Gotti knows that, and he ain't talking much these days. But I do think that Chin eventually would have succeeded in killing Gotti.

I don't think he was particularly afraid of him but I would say they where very wary of each other

I don't think Chin respected Gotti. I think he saw hm as a media hound Celebrity gangster. Like PB said, it was just a matter of time before he took out Gotti!

You don't become the head of the Gambino Crime Family being a chicken shit.In all fairness to Gotti regarding Demeo,even Decicco had to pass that contract off.Even Casso had to get the guys close to Demeo.NOBOBY in New York could of killed Demeo except the guys he trusted and that is who did it

It's not that nobody could kill him. If he or they wanted to could of had sniper, or two and take him out in a second.(sloppy,not mob style)

This is how it's always been done, make him as comfortable as possible. (this is how it is done)and a couple behind the ear...
textbook.

And a bomb, every now and then....

It wasn't that the chin had the balls to shoot costello,it's what Vito would have done to him if he refused, so in turn you can say chin feared what vito, becareful using the word fear when speaking about gangsters, it's more of a healthy respect that they have for one another, nobody wants a war

Gotti would never have admitted to being scared but I'd say that he would have feared a lot of things, being the head of a crime family and all..

John Gotti jr was queen for a day.. Look that up and your understand what that means..yes everybody scared of somthing !!

No offense, buddy. But you keep repeating the same thing over and over, on the board and in the shout box. If it's true that Junior Gotti was a rat, no one cares.

No one is the slightest bit shocked by who's a rat in this day and age. We're at a point where bosses have testified against their subordinates. FBI files have been released and it turns out that stone gangsters were dry snitches all along. And even the "stand up guys" today make plea bargains acknowledging the existence of the Mafia to avoid long prison terms.

No one should be shocked that people who are capable of murdering their best friends are also capable of informing on their best friends. It ain't a movie. It's a shit life all the way around.

Huh yes my friend I mention it because it will be public very soon..the only one who is going to be surprised by it will be junior himself because he still trying to play roll but yet very scared..oh and people do care otherwise you be on this wanna be sight.. So don't act like a mutt..

I was just giving you friendly advice. But whatever.

So you act like you have inside info about John Jnr Gotti then insult those who actually respond to your bullshit?



Your circle of friends must be fucking HUGE in RL.

Serpiente,maybe I didn't make myself clear.It is my opinion that Gotti,Decicco,Casso or anyone in the mob at that time would have been very hesitant and were more than aware that Demeo was not an easy man to kill and that taking a contract on him could and be dangerous.i don't think any of them were "scared".I also think that Gotti got to be the Boss of the Gambino's knowing and accepting that the way he achieved being Boss could start a war with Gigante.The rest is history,brother

Vitto, fuck off you stupid [BadWord].

Cheers

The chin learned the art of treachery from the master himself Vito genovese. Look what he did in philly for power only. Gotti had nothing on chin chin only wanted power. Didn't care in the least about superficial things. I guy likel that is the scariest of all. He was so powerful cause his boys would die for him. As long as u were w vinny u were set for life. Best cosa nostra boss since Luciano. No ? About it and he was like castellano. Ordered more hits than Vito himself If not for the loony act, he was the epitome of a "BOSS"

It's prob a revalation in john alite's fuckin awful book , it will be full of lies . And as for insulting PB , that's really not advisable he is one of the most respected guys on this forum

I few days ago I found The Gotti Tapes book on google play for very cheap (if you don't mind reading off a tablet, cell or laptop). It includes Sammy's testimony and transcripts of the bug in the apartment above Ravenite. Reading their conversations, I get the impression that Gotti really was a guy who walked around high fiving himself all day. He cannot let Sammy or Frank say more than half a sentence without interrupting and finishing what he thinks the point should be. So I get the impression he feels very powerful and secure and don't think he worries about other families. He takes prison as a certainty too, he knows he's going quite soon anyway.

BTW he mentions Chin a few times. Chin has sent him a word that there's a guy who's he thinks is going to testify against Gotti and Gotti is going to have a meeting about it. There doesn't seem to be any ill will.

Gotti insulted and criticized each person including his his most trusted men, like Sammy Gravano.
The one he was afraid was Chin Gigante, both because Chin was the boss of the Genovese and because Gotti knew that even if he wanted to take revenge for the death of DeCicco, knew he couldn't declare war to the Genovese.
If he did, the other families in the best case, would remain neutral, at worst they would jump on the Gambino, Gotti before if he won't been killed by his men also were the 80s not in the mafia golden age and the gambino would have gone the end of the colombo after the war of the 90s.

I guess it also depends how you define fear. If you mean, was Gotti sucking his thumb in bed at night, shaking in fear of Chin is anybodys guess. My guess is no. If you mean did he fear the Genovese family in the sense that a war with them would have catastrophic consequences (for everyone), then I'm sure the answer is yes.

I remember wen he was at the sitdown he told gigante , maybe the cops killed Paul . Later he was caught on a wiretap laughing about it , I dint think he was scared of chin at all , he was more scared of flying than he was of the chin

On the Ravenite wiretap Gotti, Sammy and Frank Locascio were talking that the cops probably killed Paul, and there was just the three of them in the room.

Afraid? I doubt it, Wary? Of course how could you not be wary of Gigante? But I bet Chin was wary of Gotti too, he had a ton of killers.

He told gigante the same during the sitdown

Yeah I just thought it was funny that they wouldn't admit it even within their own administration. Well, it's good to keep your story straight

Yeah ha ha , they were prob winking at each other while saying it

Yes, if I remember correctly, the defense was trying to use this as evidence that Gotti was not involved in the Castellano murder, but Gravano testified that they were smirking while saying it.

John alite was an imposter fake tough guy that hung with john gotti jr so what does that tell you..PB my apology you sound like a cool dude..john gotti wasn't afraid of chin but was carful, the chin hated him and wanted him dead. But seen how much attention he was bringing to himself so he let him hang himself which he did. Destroyed whole family..they left junior alone because he had no clue..

None of them did really . Peter gotti used to clean the toilets in the bergin and ended up boss

please clarify: Didn't the Chin make a comment about Gotti getting his son involved in the life? Something Like "I would never bring my kids into this"

Aren't his family involved??

His legitimate son, Andrew, was a union heavyweight. But he was never made. His son by his girlfriend, Vinny Esposito, has his button. But now that Vince is dead I don't think he's even active.

Those people have all the money in the world. They're nuts if they even jaywalk with that last name.

Im sure he had a healthy respect at the very least. Chin was an extremely intelligent, crafty and very calculating character. always reminded me of a Bond villain for some reason.

I do think Gotti was at least leery about going to war with the Westside. Like it or not they were so powerful even then Gotti knew not to fool around.

I got ya ,I did not know if you were telling or asking.
I see your point.

He looks like he used all the toilet duck on himself.

Serpiente,believe me I'm not telling you or anyone anything.From what I have read I can only give my opinion.I am much more likely to ask someone as you on the Philly Mob or some of the New York guys on that city's mob.I just enjoy the hell out of reading your post and the other posters on here who grew up with this in their backyard and actually knew some mobsters.Again,I would never try and tell any of ya'll guys anything.You want to know about Elvis,I got you.I will leave the mafia to the guys who grew up around it.Thanks though,budro

He used his son as a messenger but not a made man. His son is involved with the unions making a good living

Yeah, I mentioned that about Andrew. But Vinny Esposito is indeed made. But from what I understand he's not very active.

Gotti definetly feared some mobsters during his life. I mean all know he feared Roy demeo according to Gene Gotti's phone conversation with Angelo in 1982. Im sure he knew how smart and powerful the Chin was. Hell even Paul castellano made gotti sweat when Paul was at the height of his power. Gotti was only able to kill Paul when Paul was at his weakest point

Is this phone conversation available online anywhere between Gene and Angelo in 82'?

Depends on what you mean by "fear". That's like asking if Hitler and Stalin feared each other. Well they probably did, since they both knew the other guy was very powerful and could hurt them.

Everyone fears their rivals, otherwise they wouldn't be rivals. And a man without fear is a dead man walking.

We know Gotti "feared" the Chin, not because Bruce Mouw(or was it Coffey?) said Gotti blinked when hearing the West Side or bullshit like that, but because Gotti was no idiot. He saw how close Chin and Casso came to killing him with the bomb.

But people spin this into Chin idolatry. If Gotti feared Chin, then Chin also feared Gotti, because Chin also wasn't an idiot. Otherwise why try and kill him in the first place? Why ally with Casso in the first place?

"Stickler for the rules" my ass. Chin feared Gotti for one reason: because of the precedent Gotti killing Castellano set. It meant no one was bulletproof or above being killed. If Castellano got it, it might also be open season on the Chin. That's it.

It was Mouw who later told about Gotti's reaction when they told him the West Side was planning on hitting him. And I'm not sure why people say it's "bullshit." Mouw apparently saw a change come over the usual ego-driven, carefree Gotti that showed he took the threat seriously and it "meant something to him," as Mouw put it.

We also know that, while Gotti only suspected that Chin was behind his underboss getting blown up, he now had proof from the feds that the Genovese were gunning for him. But there was never any retaliation. They confronted the Genovese about it but, as they probably suspected he would, Chin just played dumb.

I think both Chin and Gotti were wary of the other. But it definitely seems that Chin was more ready and willing to strike than Gotti was. But I've never seen this as a reason for idolizing Chin.

I do agree about the reason for Chin's anger at Gotti. Gotti's move put all bosses, including Chin, in danger. And that's what got DeCicco blown up. The later plotting against John and Gene Gotti, by Bobby Manna, was more related to Gambino encroachment on Genovese territory in New Jersey.

I guess one way to measure if Gotti was afraid of being hit is what security precautions he took. Was he acting like a guy who is afraid of getting hit? Concealing his movements, keeping irregular schedule etc? If not, then I guess he either didn't believe he'd get murdered or wasn't afraid of it.

I read somewhere years ago that Gotti supposedly beefed up his entourage after the feds warned him.

sorry PB, I didn't see your post

Yes that makes sense. That's interesting.

There were a few threats against Gotti in the period that he was boss. Didn't a homeless guy try to kill him too?

He didn't change his pattern at all according to the feds. He woke up late and was picked up in the Mercedes by his driver and went to the hair stylist before heading to the Ravenite each day.

A crazy guy named William Ciccone took a few shots at Gotti. Joe Watts who got rid of Ciccone

the West Side Baby, END OF STORY

This is quite off topic, but since this thread is about fear and especially about fearlessness, I'll say this. My true love is the history of WW2 air warfare. My father took me to the airport since I was maybe 5 years old because flying was his passion (he flew, I sat on the grass waiting, until I was older), and it is still his passion even though he's around 65. Me and my father have a collection of about 200 books exclusively about WW2 airwar. We have both studied this quite a lot. And one thing that comes up with the best of pilots is, they face almost impossible odds on daily basis, with the knowledge that this will probably be their last mission. They talk about fear of death quite a lot, and believe me, there is such a thing as intelligent, tactical guy with no fear of death. War brings out a ton of these guys. I'm not saying that Gotti is anything like these guys, but there really are people on this earth who you can't intimidate.

I guess Gotti would have beyond intimidation if he could fly a plane...sorry Belette..just breaking your balls....good point.

Why you...

Between the paps and the Feds he had the best bodyguards following him around he could get......

Here's a related question people seem to overlook: Did Gotti fear Casso and the Luchese's? They were the ones who actually tried to kill him, weren't they?

I LOVE those old WW2 movie like "12 O'clock high" etc....

Boy some of those guys had balls. The more missions they flew the higher the chances of getting killed. It was sort of a numbers game, right?

I agree and imagine the people like my grandparents that only survived not getting bombed by following the French POW's in the trenches. Talk about balls too!

Yes, even though these top aces were incredibly skilled and brave, as one of them estimated "luck is about 50% of it". It amazes me how it's possible. Take Erich Hartmann, the top ace of ww2. He flew over 1400 missions with 352 kills, and was never shot down. It's truly incredible.

For anyone who is interested, there's an american documentary from 1944 (in color!) on youtube which has the best real air combat footage I've ever seen. It's really worth a look, even if you skip the boring parts There's a guy who lands a plane on the aircraft carrier with the windshield covered in blood after being shot in the face by the AA gun. http://youtu.be/B5JbXRDOP60

I gotta say, I wish I was as tough as my grandfathers generation...

I think the Chin feared Gotti. Why didn't he attack Gotti head on? Why did they use a bomb to blame the Sicilians? The Chin partnered with the Lucheses only... why?

Cause Gotti controlled Vic Orena and skillfully fueled the Colombo war. And Gotti had the Bonannos, too, via his pal, the Fat Rat.

Gotti controlled three families and was probably stronger and definitely willing to fight. In fact, he probably wanted a war, knowing how much of a gambler tough guy he was.

Also elsewhere I read something about Casso and D'Arco. Al was in a tough spot, I believe. Casso wiped out many of the Luchese family's heavy hitters, like Facciolla who would've been the first crew to assassinate Casso if Casso hadn't killed him first, before the family really knew what they were dealing with. I know some of you will say you can't believe Al but I found his story very believable. He and Crea supposedly discussed making a move right before Al flipped. If Daidone had gone with them, I really think there would've been a takeover, or an attempt, at least. Capeci provided a lot of context and detail in Mob Boss without D'Arco, I think he vetted the book pretty well.

Lastly I heard comments about Linda Scarpa....obviously it's unfair for me to comment but I will say she and I were friends and.she really pulled some devious crap on me. There was provocation. A person on FB, whom I think was fake, kept DMing me crap like she thought I was a Scarpa. "You hung out at Wimpy Boys with so and so, right?" I kept correcting her but she kept DMing me that she just saw so and so and said hello from me, etc and etc. I finally told him/her that they were an idiot and a troublemaker and I blocked her. The fraud may have been driving Linda nuts too. Lisa was the first name she was using. Some old nobody.

Sorry, guys, I had to get that off my chest and for some reason the words decided to flow here and now..... Sorry if this is long and rambling... And Scarpo is not my real name. I made it up....

While I have a ton of respect for soldiers (I wanted to be a fighter pilot myself) I still think many are scared of dying whether they admit it or not. I agree with PB that EVERYONE is afraid of something or some man whether they admit it or not.

Even kamikaze pilots were afraid of something, suicide bombers etc. We all have something that scares us.

I know someone who john gotti was very wary of , joe billotti . Apparently after the murders of billotti and castellano he thought he was gonna have a problem with joe so sent gravano to feel him out . Apparently joe billotti was a tough son of a bitch

What happened to Joe Bilotti was he inactive after Tommy got hit? Still alive?

Those were the exact words that Bruce Mouw said when Gigante died...He said they heard Gotti bad mouth everyone, all except Gigante...He said he was the one guy he feared !!

I never knew Tommy Bilotti had a brother that was in the life. thats pretty interesting actually.

finaly got in here.

anybody seeing my post?

We see your post,Binnie Coll

No he was still very much active , he was placed in gravanos crew , if he is still alive and active I presume he is still in the vallario crew . I don't suppose he had much choice , according to gravano he had 9 kids and so did tommy, so wen tmy was killed joe was pretty much responsible for 18 kids

What is this thing called "the fist",supposed to be a genovese hit team in the late 70s and early 80s..?I read that tino the greek and michael cigars coppola were part of it.

Gigante obviously could not have been too much of a "stickler for the rules," considering that he tried to knock-off (and ultimately forced into retirement) Costello three decades earlier. Which is to say, the "precedent" was set by Gigante and Genovese, except that this was preceded by Anastasia bumping-off the Mangano brothers, which was preceded by Luciano eliminating Masseria and Maranzano, and so on ad infinitum

Supposedly Gotti feared Paul Castellano as well. Bruce Mouw commented on how Gotti would become all concerned and nervous whenever Paul summoned Gotti for no apparent reason: 'Gotti would be shaking like a leaf' in Mouw's words. Of course, among his inner circle, Gotti would badmouth 'the Pope' and ridicule him and talk trash about him, but that all changed when he had to go visit Paul at the White House. And I'm sure Gotti's fear of Paul played a large role in Gotti's desire to knock him off.

Indeed, I would say that in the mob, people who belong to the same generation of actors often become allies even across different families. And their most dangerous enemies are typically from the next generation within their own family. Castellano and Gigante were of the same generation, the status quo successors of Gambino and Genovese. Costello's closet ally was to be found not among the other members of the Luciano family (post-1945), but in the person of Albert Anastasia (Mangano family). Gotti was the upstart vis-a-vis Gigante much as Genovese was the upstart vis-a-vis Costello . . . . The real question is how did Gambino and the heirs of Genovese succeed in so thoroughly "legitimizing" their rule, such that Gotti's rub-out of Castellano appeared to be a heinous departure from the "rules"?

concerning castellano,i have a hard time believing he didn't whack gotti and his brother gene, he knew that their was heroin dealing in his family, he had always banned it. when paul wanted to hear the tapes of the conversations between quack quack and others, gotti had to whack him. it was him or paul. nonetheless castellano should have been paying more attention on what was going on in his family. he really just got beat to the punch!

It's ironic that John Gotti was celebrated for being this fearless rugged modern day Al Capone when in reality he was often shaking in his boots and not ashamed of it.

He expressed fears about the Demeo crew. He expressed fears about always being called by Paul Castellano to meet him at his mansion. He was afraid of many things and unabashedly so. He also was afraid to fly airplanes. No shame in his game. Someone like him, I think he most likely feared The Chin after Decicco got blown up. Put it like this. Gotti probably didn't know who exactly was responsible, and was then probably afraid of everyone. I remember reading somewhere that Nino Gaggi "summoned" Gotti to a meeting and Gotti got upset about it. Gotti had to know that Nino was acting like a Boss and had to have allies in the Gambino family and on the commission to do so. Decicco got blown up in 86. Gaggi summoned Gotti to a meeting probably in 87 or 88. So Gotti knew something was up and things were afoot.

Gaggi went to jail in March 86 and died their 2 years later. He was on trial when Gotti took over so Nino had bigger concerns.

I'm sure a lot of those guys were scared of one another....That just goes with the territory when your world is surrounded by a bunch of killers and criminals....Anybody would be scared if you were living that life where any second could be your Last.

Then he must have summoned Gotti in 86 around the time of the Decicco hit. What is my source? The book, Murder Machine.

The book says that right before Nino was jailed in 86, he summoned Gotti to a meeting. The way it was done was very undeferential and condescending. Nino sent an emissary to "bring" Gotti to Nino about an unspecified issue concerning a restaurant. So there you have a Capo sending someone to "bring" a boss to a meeting that the boss doesn't even know the back story to. It was probably going to be a hit, since Gotti would have possibly attended the meeting alone and would not know who would be waiting for him. But it was probably more a signal than anything else. It was a signal to Gotti and the rest of the Gambinos that Gotti did not have Commission backing and that Nino did. The only question for Gotti was who exactly on the commission was backing Nino.

Great post.

Welcome to the board. Very apt perspective regards the history of bosses being overthrown to the new 'norm' of that becoming the ultimate faux-par.

I'd be interested in thoughts on this.

Personally I can only attribute it to time. As Hesh Rabkin (Sopranos) said of Junior 'he can do what he wants, he's the boss, we all dance to his tune. That's the way it's always been.'

As one's primary motivation is self preservation, the transition from a continuous tumultuous family leadership to a stable one is understandable, when the stability of the times is taken into account.

Added to which Gambino, Luchesse and Bonanno were all at the TOP of their game. Gangsters amongst gangsters.

Throw in this was the mob's hey day in power, and hence money, rocking the boat, or a call for change, in that environment, and against those opponents, you see how the game played out the way it did.

So the players, the times, the power/money, the motivation and a little bit of luck were the cornerstones of the 'change' in policy.

But who the fuck knows really.

right before big paul got killed according to Sammy the bull he was gonna have nino killed for all the heat he was bringing on the family. in the book gotti tapes Sammy explains to john he told nino after the trials paul was ginna clip him and told nino they did him a favor gotti didn't invite him to the meeting capo meeting were they elected gotti new boss think nino was going to trial during the time. iread that nino tried to summon gotti at this time but gotti was like wtf im the boss, never read they had problems with each other nino shot a cop I think gotti respected that and demeo helped gotti with hits I think so he had to ask nino permission.

I think Chin feared others copying what Gotti did as it was a threat to all established bosses like himself. But him not going at Gotti "head on" was just the smarter move. Mob families don't declare war like countries do. And Gotti obviously wasn't itching for a war either, considering he didn't retaliate after he had verification about Genovese plots against him.



It seems many bosses (and mafiosi in general) are in favor of the rules as long as it benefits them. Once that changes, the rules go out the window pretty fast.

What I am suspecting here, as I am sure Nino did, is that Sammy was trying to psyop him into believing that his number one ally (Big Paul) was in fact his enemy. Nino was blood relation to Big Paul, a Boss who was losing control and badly needed allies. I find it hard to believe Paul would whack Nino, though with these people....anything's possible.


Now if Nino went so far as to summon Gotti, I very much doubt he was kicking up. It's not a good look to put on a tough show right after you kicked up 50% of your profits as tribute. So good relations is something I doubt Nino and Gotti had. More likely is that Nino was a lone wolf Capo with strong Sicilian backing and connections that the Neopolitan John Gotti was wary about disturbing. Maybe we never heard about a beef because Gotti himself was the one who kept it quiet instead of rocking the boat and complaining about back payments of missing tribute? Instead of calling Nino out and having his impotence against the Sicilian faction exposed, he ignored it and kept pretending to be omnipotent.

interesting, nino was blood related to paul? how, be a great factoid..

gotti had to know who was killing his guys.. decicco, lino boriello, caso flips tells the whole story who is killing his guys still does nothing..they were afraid to do anything..my opinion

Gotti had his suspicions but couldn't prove it , wen casso flipped gotti had already been in jail doing life without parole for a year

I know Nino was related to the old boss Scalise. I think he had no relation to Castellano actually.

my take also alfa

he still was the boss, they killed his closest guys..thats war..they were going after jr, still nothing..the tapes from manna when he was in the street..he knew who was behind this..people say how tough and smart he was.. he made all the wrong moves, and then never honored them for giving their lives up..he was not willing to go against chin.. my opinion

I read an old article by Capeci from -89 and it reminded me of this thread. It says that months after the feds warned Gotti, they also went and warned Chin, his two brothers (yes the priest too) and Baldy Dom that the Gambinos were going to assassinate them.

http://articles.philly.com/1989-02-27/news/26153845_1_john-gotti-louis-gigante-genovese-crime

Did this turn out to be untrue? It's interesting if Gotti actually had a plan to kill Chin, but killing the legitimate brother sounds odd...

TG I agree with what you said about each exactly

Neither were scared but both knew the other could have killed them with the power their families had at the time

I still love how much control WS had on fish market ,that racket doesn't get a lot of attention but huge $ was being made , WS had total and I man total control of that market , more so than any LE . Wish their was more on that racket , always wonder if stuff is still going on as those guys owned a lot of those wholesale fish co.s, I know probably today a background check is ridiculous but I wouldnt be shocked if some envelopes still make it out , just a lot more legitimate today , but who knows , I know I dont

Gotti was afraid of a good amount of gangsters. Obviously demeo he wouldnt go near even when paul asked him to take him out. Casso was another guy that gotti made peace with mostly because casso was taking about gambino members who tried to kill him. Even big paul at the height of his power. One incident was paul ordered him to a sitdown and gotti nervously said what did i do now

The new market is right next door to the prison barge in Hunts Point. One of the government offices that monitors the weights and measures and cost to sell ratios for the fish market is actually located INSIDE the barge. The outside monitoring is done by fucking Giuliani's private security firm. No conflict of interest there, though .

Long story short: No. No. And No.

Thanks PB, what I figured with any Guilinana bust , steady flow of excessive fee $ passed onto consumers . Whats the difference

Goes back to my theory that some LE use same business tactics as CN

In Gravano's book he said Gotti used to be intimidated by castellano whenever they visited his house. And I know he was scared or Demeo because he wouldn't have made a move on him without DeMeo out of the picture.

Gotti was a tough guy no doubt however some claim he wasnt afraid of anybody which was total bullshit lol. I already gave examples of guys gotti was afraid of. HELL he only took out big paul at his weakest moment and with decicco and gravanos help. Lets face it if gravano and decicco turned him down gotti would have been dead in the 80s

Yeah Sammy was on the fence about it at first but DeCicco was all in making gravano all in as well. DeCicco and Sammy were very close.

gotti should have been smart enough to quit bad mouthing Sammy, he should have known he would flip if gotti wanted to clip him.

running Sammy down was a bad move on gottis part.

I agree. People make gotti out to be some saint or something. Or a "real" gangster. The guy was parading around the streets basically telling everybody he was the boss by the way he attracted attention. He was by no means a "real" gangster. Just because he was stupid enough to bad mouth his loyal(I guess you could call him that) underboss and he didn't flip after he was ratted on doesn't mean anything.

Agreed. Lets face it without Neil Dallacroce Gotti most likely would have never gotten made. Neil as respected a mobster as he was wasnt exactly the smartest gangster. He was a street thug similar to gotti and thats probably the reason that carlo didnt want him to be boss

Gotti wouldn't have been made without Dellacroce? Wow

Yeah, like the Faticos weren't only second in power to the Vario crew in that neighborhood.

I get the Gotti hate. But give me a break. The McBratney hit really WAS a favor to Carlo. To say that he wouldn't have gotten his button is absurd, and I'm no Gotti supporter. I've been very clear about that over the years. The Westside guys who I grew up around couldn't stand him. But what's right is right. He was getting his button, no ifs, ands or buts.

And keep this in mind: If Paul was so dead set against John getting made, then why did he make Genie BEFORE he made John?. All that accomplishes is making John stronger. And it's not like Paul was stupid. He was a little naive about creating factions, but he wasn't a dumb man.

But was McBratney involved in the kidnapping/murder of Gambino's nephew? The ringleader, somebody named Robert Senter, was never hit and served his prison sentence without problem, as far as I know. Did Gambino genuinely believe it was all McBratney's fault and Senter did take the wrong rap?

I think you are exactly right, gotti was dellacroce's man. and without neil, gotti was toast.

Some guys end up dead. And then there are some guys walking around that make you scratch your head and ask yourself how they're still breathing. I really can't explain it any better than that.

It's a fucked up life where you can get killed by accident. Conversely, there are guys who fucked people all their lives and nothing happens. It's a dangerous game.

Lets be honest, it has to stand to reason that Chin was a little fearful of Gotti. To say that Bobby Manna was on his own when he was planning on trying to clip Gotti and that he had not sanctioned it. Chin wasn't a perfect boss just like Gotti wasn't. But to say Gotti wouldn't have gotten made is getting a little crazy. A lot of revisionist history going on.

I guess you never heard of the Faticos in Idaho, huh?

for christsakes i was being sarcastic when i said gotti wouldnt have gotten made. My point was he wouldnt have gotten as far without neil

The same can be said about Chin, with Vito Genovese he wouldn't gotten as far.

that maybe true however the chin proved to be a very crafty boss. Secondly im sorry but he was never scared of gotti

I'd imagine both were wary of each other, after all they both had an army of killers.

Crafty, yes, but still died in prison. If he wasn't he wouldn't have said that Bobby Manna was a renegade. He would have stood his ground

im not disputing gotti wasnt a tough guy because he was BUT he wasnt fearless of everyone. Demeo and casso scared the shit out if him. Even big paul at the height of his power made gotti nervous when he ordered him to meetings

Chin was closer to Benny Squint than he ever was to Genovese. Popping Frank Costello isn't what got him the Village Crew. It was his tremendous earning ability, just like it is with everyone else. And if he wasn't so close to Benny, all bets would have been off after Vito died.

Didn't say he wasn't fearless. What I am saying he wasn't cowrring in the corner either, to say he didn't project fear before he was a boss and after isn't being realistic.

I know that, JC. My post about that Faticos wasn't directed at you .

Agreed, Chin had his own pope was the only point I was trying to make.

'Even Big Paul' Your talking like Paul was a fairy. He was arguably the most powerful mob boss in the country, who the fuck wouldn't be nervous when Big Paul had a legitimate beef with him?

Only a psychopath (like Casso) wouldn't be fearful in Gotti's postion.

my post wasnt directed at you either

Um..... when did i call paul a fairy. In fact many times i have posted that paul had a bad temper and ordered more deaths than most bosses

I said 'talking like' Big Paul was a fairy, by saying 'Even Paul made him nervous'

i think you are reading too much into it. It wasnt meant to say he was a pussy boss i just meant he was more white collar criminal. However he would kill you if you looked at him wrong

faticos, faticos, faticos, oh yeah, I know them, they live here in the woods, they own a donut shop in mcbumfug. right off highway 41.

Now that's the funniest thing you've ever posted, Binnie .

Pizza ,there is a good singer at the hardrock march 28th, i may go, lara fabian, ever hear of her? she sings in italian and english. she is half italian.if you have time she is worth it

.
Sure I've heard of her. She's from Belgium and she's been around for quite awhile. Nice looking girl with a great set of pipes. She can really sing, too .

Which Hard Rock, Tampa or Hollywood?

hollywood, not a lot of people heard of her. she sings "caruso" a great song

Te voglio bene assai .

VERY GOOD..my favorite all time song

I know who she is very good I heard her sing in French.

didn't know that..how can you have a legit argument with her, ? she start speaking french , and the argument is over.lol

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/7ON0iKXVUPw

footreads, that was great! thanks,

This guy does it justice. For a Northern Italian, anyway .

that was great Pizza,thanks .. Pavarotti..is my favorite for this song. shame he's dead

side note, one of John SR favorites songs were wind beneath my wing.wonder who he meant?

It had to be Sandy. Because Vicky clipped his wings long before that song came out .

LOL.....LOL

I have the good stuff out tonight, Bronx. No bullshit. That's why I'm on. '96 Riserva Ducale .

That is old school. in the late 70's if i had a good week it was gold label..bad week, CK.. great wine.

Wish I knew how to speak Italian, but I do like this song from him. Great song. (even though I have no idea what he's saying )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcrfvP11Hbo#t=101

So are you saying Bobby Manna was tougher than Chin? Idk too much about Manna I just read about him in Phil Leonetti's book.

manna got permission, no question. i did not have to be there to know that..if you went behind chin's back ,you were in a trunk

No doubt whatsoever. And we're not talking about just anyone here. Manna absolutely worshipped the ground that Vince walked on. No way this hit was gonna be on the sneak.

Yeah Bobby Manna and Scarfo had a pretty close relationship going back to time they spet in prison. In regards to what Facchia said about Chin being araid of Gotti i dont buy that. Chin was actually a smart boss because not only did he use the "crazy" routine effectively but he also used front bosses to shield him away from heat.

To say that the Chin was "afraid" of Gotti, is like saying that Stephen Hawking is afraid of a physics student....as bosses, they couldn't be further apart..both in style and substance.

Despite them being different bosses, I think it's kind of stupid to say that Chin wasn't afraid of Gotti. I mean, we're talking about killers here, both of them, who were in charge of big families. There had to be at least some thoughts in Chin's head(after the failed bombing and whatnot) that Gotti might try to seek revenge. But I'd say that's pretty normal for the lifestyle they lived, you never knew who'd go after you and why. I mean, shit, Gotti did take out his own boss.

there is a difference between concern and fear..

Yea, I think Chin had concern about Gotti, not fear. The sit down they had, in which Gotti brags about making his son, and Chin goes "I'm sorry to hear that", then basically moves on to the next subject. Anyone who feared Gotti wouldn't have spoken to him that way. All of Gotti's guys kissed his ass, they worshipped him, Nicky Scarfo had some sort of bond with the guy because they thought alike, the Chin was his complete opposite, and he knew it, I think he felt that in so many ways he was the superior human being to John Gotti, at least a superior mobster anyway. The Chin was of a different breed, I think he was as aware of that as those around him.

sinatra well said, and you never know what chin and nicky had agreed on.he may been told play nice with gotti..chin was a master..

Gotti was a tough guy BUT he wasnt feared by many like some suggest. Maybe his underlings were scared mostly because they couldnt think for themselves(bergin crew were a bunch of morons to be honest). Im still trying to see evidence to suggest Chin was afraid of Gotti lol.

taking out your own boss in your own fractured family (certainly was at that time), and taking out the most powerful boss on the commission is quite another...if Gotti even momentarily considered that action, he would have quickly been set straight by the likes of Frankie Loc and the just reality in general...what you are implying is pure fantasy.

Came across this older Time article from 2001:

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,155417,00.html

About 2/3 of the way down, FBI agent Ross states, "When we warned Gotti that Gigante had a contract out on him, he believed us," recalls FBI agent Ross. "This guy fears Chin."

Gigante's grand son was just elected mayor in rockland county. Some of the comments in this article are ridiculous, its like they interviewed some gossiping old grandma.

http://nypost.com/2015/04/26/mobsters-grandson-elected-mayor-of-new-york-village/

did that agent check gotti's bowl to see if he had the runs.. i'll show how afraid gotti was of the westside, he would go play cards by allie shades club with only a guy who drove him there.

These families really go downhill fast in the manliness department. But I agree the article is disgusting- getting condemned for your distant ancestors.

Well as I posted before on this thread, according to Capeci it did happen: http://articles.philly.com/1989-02-27/news/26153845_1_john-gotti-louis-gigante-genovese-crime

Nobody seemed to have info that the article later turned out to be untrue so I suppose it's accurate.

They were pretty friendly, though. Shades was his own man. Not that he didn't follow orders. If you didn't follow Vince's orders you ended up rolled up in a rug. But he was apparently never ordered to stay away from Gotti because he's one of only a few Westside guys captured on video bullshitting with Gotti outside the Ravenite.

Allie shades was a mans man you can take that to any bank of your choosing.

This is one of the stupid threads but chin was a boxer and heavy weight so was qd and steve crea so he could probably beat him up but there's that little rule you can't hit a made guy. Didn't a Colombo put his hands on Carlo and get put in cement like guy in star wars. Westside guy hit locascio kid and his son got hit pizza you think bosses OKed it or just a random retaliation there must be bad blood to this day and since one guys retired and ones still in NYC

Patsy broke a rule, and he didn't just slap anyone's kid. Tore was already a made guy himself at the time. He had to eat it. He's never gotten over Patsy Jr. getting killed. He was a good kid. And who gets over the loss of a child?

I'm sure it still eats at him that he had to take it. But he's one of the top guys in the sharpest family. He understands the rules better than anyone. That's all there is to it.

very true,to late, tore was scolded for coming in after the beef with patsy, he was asked why didn't you leave him there? he thought it was automatic patsy would die..if tore kills him after he gets hit, its oh well, patsy knew the rules..but when he leaves politics and favors get called in.tore was not the same after that, but learned a hard lesson..he has nothing to be embarrassed about ,the guy is a man.. now top tomato is different he gets shot and does nothing, they should have told him to move to idaho, a nobody did it knowing who he was..

GREAT analogy .

Didn't some cop named Big Frankie infiltrate Patsy's crew?

Yeah, that was the case where they all pleaded out. Around 2001/2002.

Yes thats what I read.How much did Patsy plead for or what the term is?I'm sorry if this was already said on this tread.I have a hard time reading it on my phone..Also there was a hbo show where a cop busts Andy Gerardo's crew back in '88.di that create a big buzz too?

Mimi Scialo.


PB or anyone who would know, I've always wondered if this story is true. Didn't Moose Panarella supposedly do the work? Or at least his people....

He did six or seven years. Something like that.


Not really. I don't think it got as much press as some similar busts. Maybe in Jersey, but not nationally.

correct, patsy , neil, host of others

Yeah, that's the case where they tried to drag Neil's wife into it. I know the Feds have a job to do. But I have a real problem when they try to implicate the women just to coerce a plea out of the husbands.

What a joke. You have Gigante in the life and people complain. And then you have his grandson get out of that life and into the legit life and people still complain. You can't win.

pretty woman

I'm forever scolding you young guys about the perils of the life and that it's not a Coppola movie. But in this case, you are 100 percent correct, Nicky. The third generation Gigantes grew up so sheltered that the first time they heard of their grandfathers' Mafia association is when they read about it in the newspaper.

Not sure I understand this....is this referring to Sciandra?

yes

Sciandra would probably be doing life in prison if he hit that ex-cop. He might have been told to leave it alone.

got to catch you first..the cop is dirty he showed up with a made guy

Did Sciandra lose a lot of face in the family for not retaliating?

Michael Viga and Ronald Carlucci.. Not that we're entirely clear on what happened...but 30 years ago no doubt they all could have been killed.

The adolescent obsession with "Who's tougher?" in this thread aside, it's not hard to believe Mouw's account of what happened when they warned Gotti about the plot against his life. I imagine Gotti's kneejerk reaction was to go into his "What, me worry? I'm untouchable" character. But when they told him the threat was from the West Side, as Mouw said, "that meant something to him." For a moment, Gotti's reaction revealed real concern before responding that he had "no problems" with Chin.

As for Gigante, though it would have been much harder and more unlikely to happen in the Genovese family, no doubt he saw Gotti's move as a threat to all sitting bosses. Not to mention the business deals he had going with Castellano before this upstart capo from Queens decided to take over without Commission approval. Ironically, Chin tried to take out a sitting boss (Costello) decades before for Genovese. How much Commission approval they had or didn't have aside, it shows how these guys are all about the rules when it benefits them. Once that changes, the rules can go out the window fairly quickly.




Well, as someone on another thread correctly pointed out, the freight company he's president of was likely acquired through mob influence, i.e. union connections, intimidation, etc. Would he be where he is now without how his grandfather was? I'm not so sure.

Correct

yes with made guys..and with the street

I don't know what the residents are so worried about, he's not in the mob, and his grandfathers gone..If they're worried about the mob running their town, they shouldn't sweat it so much, history shows the mob ran city's better then politicians !!

Well what do you expect him to do then? Just because he has family involved means he can't be legitimate?

How else would you expect the kids or grandkids of these guys to get out of that? Following your logic everyone related to these guys are illegitimate.

I agree...Its not the fault of the kids, they're doing their jobs working...How they got their jobs isn't their fault !!

Yeah, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, Ivy. I mean, why did the Kennedys get to go from bootleggers to a political fucking dynasty in a single generation? They didn't have doors opened for them with "dirty" money?

And I realize that you loathe the Kennedys for their politics. Maybe I'm being a little too cute by using them as the example. But like I said, they did it in a single generation. This Gigante kid grew up completely sheltered from the life. All of the grandkids did (by all of the brothers). Sure, wiseguy money opened doors for him with the freight company. But so did hooch money open doors for the Kennedys. So if it only takes a single generation for the Irish, three generations isn't enough for the Italians?

Hey, the Irish got here first, they secured the civil service jobs and locked up New York City politics. If the Italians had arrived here first and had the benefit of speaking a variation of the English language (as the Irish did), we would have done the same thing. You take care of your own first. I don't give a shit what anyone says. It's human nature and it's okay. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander.