Is the mob really going under?

There are 11-1200 wiseguys in the U.S, out of all of these - there are about 50 people who turned rat... seems like a small number and the Five families doesn't seem as much smaller as they did back in the day.. what do you guys think?

I think your numbers may be off in regards to 50 guys I the U.S who have ratted.

No doubt. I'd say at the very least 80-100. Also where did you get the 11-1200 number? Is that just made guys or including associates?

The mob will never die.

The current total membership is around 1,000. There's been a little over 100 known made members who have flipped throughout history but, even today, those that flip are still very much in the minority.

It will always be around in some form.

Most of those who flipped have been in the past 25 years. Even one guy can take down dozens. Look at what Calabrese did in Chicago and D'Arco, Gravano, and Massino did in NY.

What form? You can say there is still a mob in KC and LA, but they're not structured families. Just a bunch of hustlers and bookies with Italian last names. What made the mob different from other gangs was the family structure, political power, and infiltration of businesses and unions.

As the connections to Italy become more and more diluted with each generation it will impact on them. These days people intermarry into different cultures and are very much 'americanised'. There will always be crime but I don't see the 5 mafia families of New York surviving as they are now, they'll have to change the rules for induction. Once that happens it's dead, nobody emigrates from Italy anymore.

For instance The Irish mobs have more or less disappeared over the past 20 years, what's left is a few third and fourth generation street gangs in Boston and Philly. This will happen to the mafia, the families will be taken over/incorporated into bigger gangs comprised of people from all different backgrounds, severing the link to the home country in the process.

I don't think the rules for induction will ever change. I think the mob will cease to exist before that happens.

That's what I'm saying the mob will die and be incorporated into other crime organisations. They don't have a large pool of blue collar kids to pull from anymore, these kids go to college these days for the most part or else get a straight job.

I listened to an interview with Frankie Valli recently talking about his movie and he said when grew up in 50s working class Italian Jersey that the biggest thing these kids aspired to become was a made man in the mob. They'd no chance of college education, it was either work manual labor at the docks, construction etc or try the other life.

Criminal organizations will always exist because criminal minded people will always exist. That will never change. But anyone who thinks the Italian American mob will hang around for centuries like it has in Italy isn't being very realistic.

Assimilation and attrition have already taken their toll, and the changes in the immigration laws guarantee that we'll never get the influx of Southern Italians and Sicilians that so many of the mob watchers are looking for to keep it going.

Italian Americans produce more college graduates in the United States today than any of the other European groups who came here between 1880 and 1920, save for the Jews. But don't forget, the Jews came from all over Europe, not just one country. So why turn to crime?

I'm no bleeding heart, but it's true that 90 percent of the time it's the circumstances that make a criminal, not their last name. And although there will always be an anomaly here and there, it's very difficult to develop a true gangster mentality when you grow up in the suburbs not wanting for anything.

All that said, I suspect that in New York the families will hang around for another couple of generations in their present form. Beyond that, it will evolve into something that's still a criminal organization. But it won't much resemble the mob made famous by Martin Scorsese and David Chase (which, by the way, were very accurate depictions for their time periods).

It's over for the little guy

The mob is pretty much finished,and the conditions that enabled it to wield the power and influence it had during it's heyday are gone forever.Much has been said about the younger generations of Italian Americans not having the desire (or need) to go into that life,as well as the fact that it's becoming less common to have a Father or Uncle or even a friend in the Mob.
I agree with Pizzaboy that New York (and maybe Chicago)are the last of the Mafia Mohicans,and when they're gone,turn out the lights.

The old rackets are also falling away.
The government has cut down on the control of Unions in many states.
Legalized Casinos have cut into the gambling revenues. If they ever let other state's Casinos operate sports books like in Vegas,fuggedaboutit. The football book alone will pull a lot of customers away.
Drugs are no longer as big a money earner.The old days of controlling the refining and smuggling of heroin and coke have given way to meth labs that pop up overnight,virtually everywhere and are controlled by 1%ers and street gangs.
If you're dealing H or weed or coke,chances are it's coming from a guy who gets around on a Harley,not a Lincoln.

Of course,there will always be smaller independent gangs,some of which may have an Italian or two in the ranks,but by and large,it's over.

While u make some good points Lou , to say there over is very wide of the mark . There r still 11 viable families and the Genovese , gambino and lucchese families r stronger than ever

All i can think of about this discussion is the first scene of '46 Long' - Season 1 - Episode 2 of the sopranos when they are discussion the same thing.

It's nowhere near the powerhouse it used to be, not even close. But it's far from over. The NY families are the only ones that can be considered large criminal enterprises. The Chicago, New England, New Jersey and Philly families on the other hand seem to have already developped into smaller locally operating gangs that can wield a fair amount of power in their respective areas, but at the end of the day don't differ all that much from a more sophisticated street or outlaw motorcycle gang. The mob in this smaller form will still exist for years to come.

The Mafia had it's heyday in the last few decades. It is now deteriorating for many reasons other than rats. I don't think it will go away in our lifetime, but don't think it will ever be like it was before. Law enforcement has gotten more sophisticated and there will always be the rats

sorry to post again, but wise must have realised that when they become famous ie the godfather and sopranos the state will get around to exploring them. The godfather movies helped shine a light on the mob in 70's then looked what happened people wanted to chase votes and get themselfs elected by busting the mob in NY, the NJ mob kept under the radar until the sopranos then they got the light shined on them. Its the system and how it works Not for nothing if they are any wiseguys outthere and they become famous by any means someone from the government will be looking at you and yours soon The feds are a business and they want a return.

The good news is crime will never end.

The people involved in most of the crime will change from time to time. Any place that has poverty, and parents who don't give a shit. So that will never end.

Then it takes someone with a good idea on how to make crime really pay off.

Now that idea can come from any one even an Italian

read it on wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia

Seemed accurate..

Where do you get that? I've counted every rat (inducted)at least from what i read on wiki, and Mukermir's chart seemed accurate.

I still think it's under 60-people who have ratted and considering 40 years ago there was 3000 wiseguys on the streets, it seems like a low estimate. But then again, going from 3000 to 1100 during the past 30-40 years...it ain't good. In 20 years people will discuss on this forum weather the mob is still around in New York and people be like ''Yeah, I know this italian who is made.'' even though they're from iraq and dunno shit. But I don't think they will drop that much in numbers, considering how secret they have become. You don't see the mob like before..

About 750 of them r based in the New York families

I wouldn't go that far, Dom.

I mean, I get what you're saying: That they're not done yet. And I agree, they're not done yet. Like I said, I think they'll hang around for another generation or so in their present form because of the adjustments they've made in the past decade---namely less violence, very few murders, plea bargains, and a lower profile. And these adjustments should allow them to keep the status quo for awhile. But to say they're stronger than ever is just too much of a stretch.

There was literally a time where the Five Families could bring one of the biggest cities in the world (New York) to a screeching halt with labor slowdowns. And they're just not that powerful anymore. And sure, they still have a lot of the building and construction trades. But the days of shutting down the biggest construction site in the city, or an entire port, with just a phone call are gone for good.

Long story short: If they're content to keep the status quo, and they're crazy if they're not, then they'll be around for quite awhile. But it will never be the same.

I think the Five families aswell as other Organized crime families throughout the US are going to grow in numbers inasmuch that the Feds don't have them as an investigative priority. Sure they will make a bust here and there but the families wil grown in numbers and rackets. As long as people are willing to gamble, buy things out of the back of a trunck of a car. bid rig on job sites, are involved in Labor Uions, use drugs, loanshark you will have a Cosa Nostra.. According to Capeci the FBI has now three squads of small amounts of agents working in NY, were in the past the had one for every family. They are supposedly focusing more on Terrorism, white collar and Corruption. So whose watching the Hen house? I think they all have crawled under rocks and are going to grow in numbers. They are going to operate as the Secret Criminal Society that they are suppose to be. Just my theory!

Bean : I agree with you on most of that .But they will have to make some adjustments to members that become federal informants.

I do not know what they can do ,but if they get there men to stop ratting that is more then half the battle.

I am not condoning or disagreeing but the feds are not playing fair...

Serpiente, as you well know in the past Cosa Nostra was a way of life now it's being conducted as a business, fueled by money and greed. So it is obvious that when someone is faced with a Rico sentence, they make a business decission and do what's best for them. I agree with you that they have to insure that they choose the right people. There is nothing they can do but be very selective in their choices. As long as the Feds are Armed with Rico they got the upperhand. Sooner or later there is going to be public outcry that these guys commit to many serious crimes to be released on to the public. (ie. Sammy the Bull, Phil Leonetti etc., etc.)

But that's the thing. Attrition has thinned out the quality as well as the quantity. You can not develop a real gangster mentality when you grow up in fucking Scarsdale not wanting for anything.

And yes, there are anomalies. Take Tore LoCasio, for instance. But he's a special case, and a legacy to boot. But for every guy like Tore, there are five Craig DePalmas (who was a beautiful kid, but he wasn't cut out for the life).

Very true PB and Welcome home!

Thanks, Beanie. It's good to be back .

Maybe russia will invade italy and more sicilians are forced to emigrate to the U.S. that would be something, let's send a letter to Putin and say that ukraine is worthless, there are more vodka and russians livin' in the Messina Islands.

God forbid. Italy has enough problems. And even if that were to happen, the U.S. would still keep Western European immigration to a minimum.

Unfortunately, this country only welcomes you with open arms today if you're from the Middle East or the Caribbean Islands. And these are the very people who hate America the most.

Not politically correct, but it's true. Sad, but true.

We need some banana boats man.

Unfortunately ths is true. This country only welcomes people from Latin countries with some spicy mamacitas like the Dominican.

Not politcally cool to say but true

Just let me get my crystal ball and look into the future...

Seriously, though, I don't know. Perhaps as a more diverse organization, certainly it can't go on as purely an Italian-immigrant driven group. Perhaps some of the traditions and jargon continue on, like the making ceremony, etc.

Hey PB, do you have a link for the college ethnicity numbers you mentioned? I'd be very interested if you do, sounds fascinating. thanks.

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=634821#Post634821

americans are the only people that hate people for no reason

I don't think that's a can of worms that needs to be opened on this particular forum, to be honest Cook... So don't say I didn't warn ya ;P

That isn't true. Stop being such a Debbie Downer.

Jeezus Cook. Why do you do this to yourself.

Research European history cira 1933-1945.

For starters.

You've got to be joking, they're nowhere near what they were in the 80's, Are the Gambino's better off then they were 5 years ago? Sure..

Can you really blame them?

I think its inevitable that LCN will die one day, probably in my lifetime. Perhaps the Five families may live on in some form or other but I doubt it. Not that i'm saying it will happen next year or twenty years from now. The Italian Mafia's are even facing a harsher climate these days than ever before but the Italian state has a long way to go in the fight against organized crime (that's when they bother fighting at all). That being said there are a core group of police, magistrate's etc dedicated to fighting organized crime which before the deaths of Falcone and Borsellino barely existed before.

Sorry but that is bullshit.. I don't think the 5 families will disappear during our lifetime. When we're 90 years old, maybe the largest family will have 20-50 members or so, maybe they all joined one another.. who knows. But the LCN is alive and well and hasn't been hurt that much (except from Bonanno/Colombo) -- The FBI, the press etc. people want you to think the mob is just a weak gang full of nobodys, but fact is they still control major Unions and companies. Who's to say they don't own say ...coca cola? they might. We just don't know it yet. Maybe Obama and Heidi Klun are in bed with the mafia somehow? We might know in a few years. All I can guarantee you is that in 30 years into the future, somebody will be reading about the '2014 mob' and be absolutely amazed by their power--just like we reacted when we learned about their stretch into politics.

Or maybe the mafia will be stronger then ever in a few years? It's unlikely but also unpredictable. They have more than enough school kids who dreams about becoming LCN-members.

Wow, Tommy. I'm kinda surprised at this comment. I'd expect it from some other posters, but not from you. When people challenge your knowledge based on your geography, I'm usually pretty quick to nip it in the bud. And I'm an American .

And I'm no jingoist. I'm forever calling out the American government on foreign policy. I'm just a little surprised. Coming from someone else it probably wouldn't have bothered me.

Anyway, back on topic . . . .

So are you loving life under the swathe of radical Islamic social changes your countries experienced due to the mass immigration of middle eastern/African refugees the UK has experienced in the last 20 years?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xei9qq_richard-dawkins-visits-a-muslim-sch_news

Yeah thats RICHARD DAWKINS Tommy. The PRE-emminent biologist from Harvard.

Now, say that again, "Can you blame them".

Guess what Dawkins would say.

Yeah you fucking can.

So Americans kill millions of people in the middle-east and you expect them not to be hated? That's just naive mate.

I don't give a fuck what Dawkins says. They believe in Islam, so fucking what. The propaganda machine in the western world has convinced the retarded population that there evil, it's ridiculous.

Please don't say that my ex son in law is Ukrainian I hope he goes there to fight and die for his mother land.

So Americans kill millions of people in the middle-east and you expect them not to be hated? That's just naive mate. [/quote]

The good news is they also hate the English mate

The good news is they also hate the English mate [/quote]

True that

That's what I meant. God knows that Footreads and I don't often see eye to eye. But they hate the Brits as much as they hate Americans. And the way I took it, Tommy was singling out Americans.

Well my reply was to you mentioning Middle-easterners in America so what do you expect? Of course they hate the British, they hate the Western world.

Then why are they coming to a country they hate? You can hate this country all you want, but stay in your country if you're going to do it.

Money.

It's where they can earn. Chasing the money in a country they hate certainly makes them hypocrites. But in all fairness, they're not the first, and they surely won't be the last.

I have to agree with PB. I work in an industry where I work with immigrants from all over the world on a daily basis. It is pure economics, that is the only reason that 90% of them come here. They make their money and send it home. They do not spend it here unless it is for necessities. Many of them are illegal and working on trying to get permanent residency and they view it as a right. "I didn't do anything wrong or hurt anyone by using a fake passport (or visa or entering without inspection) so why don't they give me the greencard"? And the funny thing is that if you engage them in conversation it always comes out that they are sending money home to Whatihambam so that they can retire and live in comfort in their own country later in life. I can't knock anybody for trying to have a better life, but if you do it, show respect to your adopted home. Many do not view it as an opportunity but more as a right. Now there are some (10%)who come here for freedom and opportunity and truly love their adopted home.

It is also true that our immigration system favors those from the third world (thank Kennedy and Johnson for that one) but there is still a SMALL amount of western Europeans who still come. They come because even though they may do well back home they realize that the system back home pigeon holes them into one place. They see the beauty of our system and embrace it.

Maybe introducing a bronze aged, tribal, third world, sexist, homophobic, intolerant, barbaric, religious belief system into society IS actually a little fucking evil Tommy?

But fuck dawkins eh. You're smarter than he is

Come on, boys. You're both quality posters. We're up against enough knuckleheads on this site right now without going at it with each other .

Never once said I'm smarter then him, My opinion is that I don't give a fuck what he thinks.. whole area's in Nottingham like Hyson Green and Sneinton are 90% Muslim, there just like you and me, not evil.

After 'introducing' Islam to England, it hasn't affected us one bit.

Point.

Consider it dropped.