Steven Crea not official boss?

Only acting according to Capeci in his gangland article this week., says Amuso still boss. Wasn't he the one who broke the news about Crea taking over?

Oh, please. Capeci can't ever be wrong?

And I like Capeci, as far as journalists go. He's fair, where most of them are leeches. But I really don't know what his objective is here.

And what does "official" boss even mean? That the Feds label him that way on their charts. That's all it means.

Maybe Jerry's just fishing because he doesn't have a source that high up in the Luccheses. And it's possible that he's trying to flush one out.

It's been rumored the feds have used Capeci before to "tickle the wire"

I can definitely see that.

It sound like some bs.

Who could get to Amuso to have him make a decision anyway, he's been away for ever, how much can he know about current mob business on the streets..?

Wasn't Amuso cellies with Nicky Scarfo at one time? Can you imagine if those walls could talk?

He probably reads gangland every week to keep up to date

Or cosanostra news.com

The story is an obvious red herring. They're just shaking the tree.

Of course he can, I don't buy it.

^^^^
That wasn't directed at you, Tommy. You know that. You're one of the best posters on any of these sites. I was just venting at the gullibility of the less informed .

Maybe, But Crea and Madonna attended Vic's wife's wake only a few days after GL announced his removal as boss.

IF thats true its a pretty big marker that Crea taking over was false.

Why, because they decided to respect the dead?

You know how much I loathe these speculative threads. Go ask the skippers who the fucking boss is. I'm done posting about it.

Coulden't he have just shown up because they were friendly? Pizza?

Look at my post right above yours. I'm done with this shit.

Ye sorry about that just saw it. Clicked to respond to sonny before you posted and went to do something.

Yeah, it COULD be to pay respects. It COULD be because they were friendly.
It also COULD be because Vic is still the boss.
I dont know, Im only fucking speculating as is every other fucking guy on this board.

Anyone here a made guy with the Fucking Luchese family? No? Didnt fucking think so.

Pretty sick n tired of the attitude here of late.

I hear ya PB keep your head up, don't let this shit get to you(nobody was calling you out)...It's all supposed to be fun around here(Unless someone calls you out...then, ya know)....This is the way PB's feeling right now..

You're angry because i offered a different take? Jesus, its a message board, we debate.

I have to agree with Sonny, there are some guys on here that think they have first hand knowledge on anything Mob related or on a specific Family. They act as if they and are contacted daily by the Administration and captains for their advice and counsel.

We all have our opinions that we based on what we have read and observed through out our life experience. We are lucky to have some guys on here that have had different exposure to the Mob than others , but they are still their opinions. Unless you are a Mobster, a Fed or a Prosecutor what do you really know. Also you can add a journalist to that list aswell. They have sources in law enforcement and on the street. Yes they make mistakes, but if you can do better, then start your own blog or Mob forum. Let's not attack one another or try to force our opinions on others, If you say something, back it up, put a link ortherwise it's just like they say, "Opinions are like asshole, everyone has one!"
Just my two cents!

Obviously CREA is da real power.. All the Lucchesse on da street kno this I dont think Crea gives a fuck if it official or not.. But prety much creais the official bosd

Crea is 100% the official lucchese boss , end of thread let's move on

I agree with this.


But everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've been a little short tempered lately. Nothing to do with anyone here .

Well, I gotta say that the funeral theory is a bit of a reach...

Beanshooter, good post. I was emailing back and forth a couple months back with a guy who is a long time GBB member who rarely posts now who echoed your sentiments, and he said "I just got tired of the posers, goofballs and thread hijackers". Anyway being an amateur Mob watcher I really appreciate the insights from all the folks on here. Maybe the summer heat is causing some of the attitude.

We get all kinds or crazies on this site. It's the nature of the subject matter, I guess.

Who gives a fuck. Doesn't effect me. Makes for a good story. My guess is there isn't anything else to write about. Tommy D and emails. Snooze fest. Memberships probably low. Again, who really gives a fuck.

PB said it best. Ask the captains.

Apol Italforever. Was not directed at you.

Bad day my end is all.

You are getting grouchy in you're old age Just kidding pal I know it wasn't directed at me

No argument there .

For what it's worth (my opinion means nothing) Crea has been boss since his parole restrictions expired in 2009. Amuso has had little or no say in the family since 2003, pretty much all his loyalists were in jail, while Migliore, DiNapoli and Madonna were running things while Crea was in jail. Why would they kick upto a guy with no powerbase who's completely fucked up the family, they let him keep his stripes until Crea came home, he's been the real power in the family for 20 years. What he says goes.

Added to which even dumbass Capeci's 'contacts' state Amuso is hated on the street.

Why he believes Vic is still in the big chair is beyond me.

As stated by others my only conclusion is it's a red herring designed either by the Feds or Capeci to stir the nest.

Capeci's better than this. He's trying to sell ice to the Eskimo's with this shit. And I'm amazed he's got the balls.

Unless he's doing it for a reason....

When was Scarfo jr. made? That was a result of Amuso and Scarfo plotting together in prison and deciding up that. I think he was made in 1999-2000, but I'm not sure. If that is so, Amuso had to have been calling the shots otherwise why would Crea allow that headache. Your thoughts?

There you go, Tex .

Interesting point. From memory Nicky Jnr was hit in 91? Made soon after, so that would still fit in the above timeline, with him losing control late 90's.

Stevie has always been close to the Pernas and the Jersey faction through Hooks and Joey G. It's entirely possible he did it for them. He's also an old timer at heart, and he may have simply done it for Scarfo. Who knows?

89 I think, think it was around 95 he got made.

Home run the blue Jays!

Good memory, Sonny. That timeline fits because Stevie's influence date back to the mid to late '90s.

Let me quote myself because his influence as the main power dates back to the late '90s. He was a very powerful guy in his own right ten years prior to that. He was partnered with the DiNapolis and a millionaire in construction before his 40th birthday. He's a very impressive guy, as far as those guys go.

And that, closes the issue.

All due respect (or lack there of) to Capeci, I think we can put this thread to bed now.

Could someone clarify me i read capeci article he says madonna was his righthand man on the street whose he talking about. Is he creas guy or amuso. Crea was acting consig in 90 or 91 so amuso seen something in him and guess he wasnt on vic n gas hitlist like neil mig was. But madoona was in jail from 75 to 95.woonder how he even met amuso who got life mid 90tys and madonna was wrapping up. I did see and remember amuso son inlaw got some sway. I remember a article by capeci were he killed that hitman joe watts saying he was a government witness and they staged a fake trial or pleabargin hearing and who ever told him that shit was all bs i think it was l.e. cause the retracted that quick think thats when he was working for.tbe sun. The guy joe watts had good lawyers and took pleas unlike john gotti order who was the smart guy in the end even thou the feds hit him again since but might get out oneday and was still doing mafia shit just acouple yrs ago.

I thought that was more of a move to placate the bronx guys.

My fault i misread.

Didn't Crea reluctantly make Scarfo after Amuso pushed him to do it?

And for what it's worth, Capeci did quote 4 sources including three in law enforcement. My question is where were all these sources when he originally said Amuso stepped down?

Stevie and the Bronx/Harlem faction were the power when Scarfo got straightened out.


The reason is debatable.

Is there even a difference between acting and official boss at this point? It's not like Amuso could give a lot of orders since he can't possibly know what's going on the streets after being locked up for 25 years. He probably has never even met most his captains. The only difference I can think of is whether Amuso is still getting money or not.

Whether or not you believe the article---and I've made my feelings pretty clear---I think everyone can agree that for all practical purposes, Stevie has final say in the street. And it's been that way for quite some time now.

If Vic was supposedly a pawn used by Anthony Casso then how did he retain so much power over a decade after going to prison - independent of Casso?

I mean the guy has been characterised as an insecure, subservient pushover yet he ordered and possibly carried out more killings than any other contemporary crime boss.

It fascinates me. I really don't think anyone can paint a full, consistent picture of what Amuso was like - certainly compared to other significant mafia figures. So many accounts of Amuso seem to directly contradict each other.

http://www.cosanostranews.com/2014/07/whos-luchese-boss-still-vic-amuso.html

Moe, Thanks for the link, this should get interesting considering this guy's last article on Borgesi and the Philly Hierarchy.

In all fairness, he's just regurgitating the bullshit that Capeci reported this week. Can't blame this guy for everything .

He has a GOOD source if it has anything to do with NY wiseguys especially Brooklyn. I know he gets his info from a guy who is from the neighborhood who grew up with wiseguys and was an associate.
But you didn't hear that from me.

I actually had a beef with him a cpl yrs ago cuz he used my lil pal video I made without asking my permission. I told him take it down n he did. That's how I found out his source.

I'm sure he's an okay guy. But everyone gets it wrong now and then. And he's not open to criticism at all. That's half his problem. If you're going to be in a creative field, like writing, you have to be able to accept criticism, or people are going to deliberately look to tear you apart. Especially today, in the age of blogs and Amazon reviews.

It's much easier to say I was wrong once, than go on a tantrum with twenty back and forth insults. Just my two cents .

Alfanosgirl are you talking about Capeci or Ed Scarpo(Cosanostranews)?

I'm talkin about the Cosa Nostra news writer not Capeci a capisci? Giggle

....Oh ok i understand.

Ok NJ--- I will try not to use my mob coded speech with u too much.
I'll letcha warm up a bit...

Who me?...No need for me to warm up....I've been hot since the first day of birth!

Yea I was beginning to worry about U there for a moment Jersey!
Good boy!

I also can't see how Amuso still has the reigns unless it's as a front to take heat off the top guys on the street.

Outside of the disaster in the 90s the Luchese have generally been huge earners and a very strong family IMO . Things appear to be going good at the moment and as mentioned earlier I really am wondering if this is to get some info on the admin, perhaps LE intel is light at the moment .

I was going to leave it alone, DB. But you're a good kid, and I have to reiterate that I agree with that assessment 100%.

It's driving the Feds nuts that they don't even know who the under is right now. They're using Capeci to shake the tree. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last.

Of course everyone is free to draw their own conclusion. But I stand by my position. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm wrong .

Your rarely wrong PB and I think you were spot on with this one from the beginning .

The 90s were a total mess for these guys but outside of that , they generally know how to conduct business . Them Bronx , E/I guys sure seem to know what they are doing .

Regarding Scarfo Jr., was it even a bad move to make the guy? He seems like a good earner who will do his time without flipping.

Not really. He made a lot of money, and it seems that New York kept him at arm's length. So even if he did flip, which is doubtful anyway, he couldn't hurt the administration.

I don't know much about him. He's a Jersey/Philly guy. But I think it might get interesting when his father passes away. He's like 85 now. So if he dies a few years into Junior's sentence, he may decide to roll. I seriously doubt he'd flip while his old man is still alive.

So you don't think he has much on MY guys? I wonder if he has anything on Philly guys from the 80s/90s. I saw Leonetti saying he should flip and implicate Merlino in his shooting.

NY not MY... Sorry

Also I wonder if a jury would even believe that without any corroboration. Merlino was in disguise. Also good point Pb on his father. Scarfo Sr is such a piece of shit, thats one thing I believe Leonetti on.

Nah. That's a big misconception with these guys. That just anyone can flip. You have to be able to offer them someone worthwhile. And I doubt he has anything on New York, or even the Pernas for that matter. Those are pretty cautious guys.

As far as Philly in the late '80s. Who can he give them, his old man?

Yeah, I don't know. But he has to know SOMETHING and it's not like he was charged with murder. He someone got a Rico conviction for accounting control fraud, he's obviously an idiot... Anyway the point is the feds might be more willing to listen due to his relatively non violent history. And if they're more willing to listen, they might be ok with lesser targets and more vague information. But truthfully I'm just trying to make a logical guess, I (obviously) have no idea. His last name can't help matters, though.

Like even if he could be another witness to corroborate that Crea is boss... Wouldn't that be helpful? Like I said, just a guess. The only neighborhood shit I know is how many kids the divorced mom has down the street

Sure it would be helpful. But I seriously doubt he knows anything. One of the reasons that family has been running so smoothly these past few years is because they seem to leave Jersey to Jersey and Brooklyn to Brooklyn. Everybody's happy. For as long as it lasts, anyway. The Feds can't even name the under right now and it's driving them crazy.

But this shit's all cyclical. There will eventually be a big pinch, someone will flip, and then the general public will know more. That's why I think something is about to jump off. There's something not right about that Gangland article.

But until something happens, that family is running as smoothly as a crime family can run in the 21st century. Lots of shy, lots of book, still some marginal influence in a couple of the unions. If they don't tug on Superman's cape with the murders (with Superman being the government), they should be able to keep the status quo for awhile.

I gotta say that it amazes me that these guys still have their paws in unions in 2014.

Anyway thanks for the reply, PB. Appreciate it.

I do wonder, though, about how big a bust could really be without any murders

Scarfo Junior is gonna get twenty plus years without any murders. All they have to do is tie in a RICO predicate, call it an LCN case, and it's a "big bust."

True. Go to bed.

Well, in all fairness he did earn more coin in a few years than most wiseguys will ever see in two lifetimes.

And in the immortal words of Tony Soprano "This thing's A BUSINESS"

Coin talks bullshit walks.

He also hasnt flipped either.

So respect where due.

All true, Sonny Boy. All true.

What good is the money if you are locked up for life at 50? I understand your points though, good post.

Yup. It applies to all of them, though.

I hate using Hollywood media references, but the Sammy character had a great line in "Gotti," with Armand Assante. It went "drug money ain't a good enough reason to do twenty years," or something like that.

It turned out to be prophetic, too. Being that he ratted, got a get out of jail free card, then got twenty years. For drug money.

Fucking douchebag that he is .

That sounds like something Paulie Gualtieri would say.

I really don't understand the responses in this thread. Why is it people find it so easy to believe Vincent Gigante, John Gotti, or Carmine Persico were able to maintain their positions from prison but Vic Amuso couldn't? And their reasoning for this usually is stated like, "I just can't see..." Well, who cares if you can't see?

Also, while Capeci isn't infallible, he's certainly one of the more respected and well-informed journalists on organized crime. And I tend to think he takes his credibility a little more seriously than to use his articles to "phish" or "tickle the wire" for the feds.

There really is no good reason to doubt this latest info. But, for some reason I've never been able to understand, certain people on these boards always stick up their nose at credible info in favor or their own guesswork or internet forum hearsay.

Ivy , it was Capeci himself who broke the story a couple of years ago that amuso had stepped down and crea had been elected the official boss

This is exactly how I replied on the other board, Ivy:

Gigante had a chance at getting out one day, Amuso doesn't. Big difference.

Had Gotti lived, I doubt he would have held on to power much longer.

Persico is the rare exception. The only reason that family is even halfway viable today is because they're more of a blood family than a mob family.

Agree to disagree on Amuso. I like you, Ivy. No sense in going back and forth because neither one of us will give an inch on this one .

And check your pm, Ivy.

And now he's corrected himself with additional info. If it's enough for him to retract his previous reports, I tend to believe it. It's not about who I think should be boss or would make a better boss, which is the reasoning many seem to be going by.

Not true, most are going off what makes sense.

Since when is that the ultimate criteria we use to deduce fact from fiction? That's why we have so many varying opinions, and subsequent arguments, on these boards. Everyone is presenting what "makes sense" to them as the truth. Meanwhile, they ignore these law enforcement sources that Capeci cites that say Amuso remains the boss.

For too many on these boards, it's a matter of what they want to be the case, or think should be the case, rather than what actually is.

Why u spew ur shit as fact
Grand ave was dead and olny cicero and Chinatown were involved in street stuff
And yet that turns out to be completely untrue

cookcounty is that you?

Like I told your fellow troll/liar cookcounty, I never said Grand Avenue was dead. All I've done is quote the FBI (who also never said Grand Avenue was dead) as info has come out from time to time. Feel free to do a search here, louie. Show me where I ever said that. Or are you just content to make things up and hope others believe it?



They're 2 peas in a pod but they're different people. cookcounty is an aspiring troll. louie is among the troll elite. cookcounty hopes to be one day what louie has been for years now on these forums.

Oh, man. But you guys never fucking stop .

Nobody said it's the ultimate criteria, but you said people think Crea is boss because they 'want' him to be, which is simply not the case.

Capeci's information is based off Crea and other top guys attending Amuso's wifes funeral, nothing more. So Capeci's original sources to Crea taking over are liars?

AS far as I'm concerned Crea is without a doubt number 1 and Amuso is out of the picture.

Shouldn't even be a debate. We crossed this bridge before and if PB says something I tend to believe it as he has not been caght one time bullshitting. Even if somehow someway Amusa was still boss in name ( which I doubt he is) Crea is the powerhouse on the street who the other guys defer to. Therefor making him the boss. The better question would be who is the UB. Which no1 knows so obviously this Family is doing it right.

Tired of the people saying if LE doesn't report it it isn't true. bullshit. LE has gotten allot wrong before and the LUccheses always seemed to kinda stay under the radar ( Next to the Genovese family they probably are the most secretive and well disciplined). No wars and not many informants with the exception of the Casso\Amusa era of the 90's. After all this is supposed to be a secret society even in this day and age.

I suggest you go back and read the article more closely. The FBI stated in the Nicky Scarfo Jr. trial that Vic Amuso was still the boss. 2 other law enforcement sources backed this up. It was yet another law enforcement source that brought up the wake as circumstantial evidence regarding Amuso's position. And one mob source also confirmed all this.

You say you don't want Crea to be the boss but yet here you are misrepresenting what the article said. I've seen people do this on the forums time and again when the official info doesn't square with what they think is the case. Believe whatever you want but you're just one more poster who dismisses objective, public information in favor of speculation, guesswork, and internet forum hearsay.



By your logic, Carmine Galante was the real boss since he was the power on the street for the time while Rusty Rastelli was in prison. But we know that's not the case. I put a lot of stock in what PB says myself but not enough to ignore the information that came out in the recent Gang Land article. The only info that has ever come out about Crea being the boss came from Capeci himself and he has since corrected that in light of more information. People on these forums have simply been pushing, for lack of a better word, for Crea to be boss for some time now. Much the way they did regarding Nick Corozzo being the Gambino boss, rather than Peter Gotti, even though that was never the case.



Like I said, objective, public information from credible sources is dismissed in favor of speculation, guesswork, and internet forum hearsay. Some of you guys need to join reality.

The reality is that Rastelli was eventually coming home. Amuso isn't. And what crew is behind Amuso these Days? He let himself get manipulated by Casso and killed off many many loyal soldiers and capos not to mention trying to kill a woman. And It sounds like Galante got hit for more than just challenging Ratellis position. He was taking over Drug Turf that wasn't his and laying claim to a market that wasn't just his. Which affected every Family. Thats why Supposedly Mr. Neil congratulated WAck Wack after the hit. Different Times and scenarios Ivy.

But like said earlier this is a forum so we can agree to disagree. I respect your stance and opinion.

That's nice of you to say, buddy. Especially considering that you don't really post much. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and Ivy is a dedicated student of organized crime and a disciplined researcher. His posts are always worth reading. I don't do half the research that guys like he and Hairy do. I just post what I believe to be true about people I've known, and a borough I've lived in, for more than fifty years. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

It's clear that he and I disagree on this, so it's best to just move on. There are certain things that I can't back up with Internet links and government reports. And for some people, that's just not enough. If they didn't read it, that means it didn't happen. I personally believe that life doesn't work that way. Furthermore, too many posters on these sites believe that having the last word means they "won" the debate. And life doesn't work like that, either.

I claim no "inside knowledge" like a lot of the other mopes who claim to be "from the neighborhood." And frankly, there are certain things I'd NEVER post, even if meant winning a silly argument. I believe the things I post and I let my track record speak for itself. I've been right a few times, I've been wrong a few times.

My final thoughts on this, and I'm not going into it again:

If Amuso turns out to be the boss----and let me be clear, I don't believe that's the case----then so what? Who's the real power? Who's living in the palatial estate? Anyone seen that house? Well, I have. And I have to imagine that the view is better than Amuso's.

Now please, let's move on.

Ivy, where did the FBI say Amuso is still boss, can you post a link?

I actually tend to trust someone who I thinks in the know on this subject you uptight bellend. You were unbearable with 'Ligambi is official boss, the FBI says so, honest'

Just took a quick look at Google Maps and Crea's road is the only one within miles that doesn't have a street view. Creaville Road! I bet he has family all over that street. I wonder if he had anything to do with the construction?

Nah, he farmed it out to three Mexican guys in Tuckahoe .

Well, as the old saying goes, "ask a stupid question... "

What's a bellend? Is that like a mook?

What's a mook? Hey, Jimmy Mook . . . .

Crea is very smart so IMO at the most Vic is just a front boss .

Any claim that Vic has the same type of authority as the Chin can also just be misinformation. .

The west side is known for leaking misinformation about their administration and it's very possible Crea is using the same tactics

That family is secretive . They are a poor mans Westside lol

But Crea is running the show with very little input from Vic

@Ivy:

You make VERY good points.

But I think you're confusing apples with oranges and looking at things a little black and white here.

The only comparable example to Amuso is Persico. Now they are very different cases. One has his blood family intermingled throughout the power structure of the family. The other, Vic, has been off the street since the VERY early 90's, has no extended blood family involved (to any known or worthwile extent), caused a huge amount of turmoil, convictions and general upheaval in the family.

Now looking at the above the REASON, guys like DOM and myself think Crea is the boss, is because if you compare a guy who's been off the street for 25yrs, caused conviction upon conviction, murdered many of his own, has no blood ties to the current power structure to a guy who is and has been THE earner, was acting for MANY years, has the support of most of the HISTORICAL (and current) power base (Bronx vs 80's Brooklyn), powerful Jersey connections and above all has been on the street for (apart for a 5yr bid the turn of the century) the better part of 2 decades and as if not THE capo, then acting, what do you logically think is the most reasonable assumption?

Because Capeci and LE are ALSO assuming remember. So yes, TWO, LE 'sources' plus a funeral attendance point to VIC. But LOGICALLY, considering the above, you can see why the 'evidence' points STRONGLY to Crea.

And thats not wishful thinking mate, because I HIGHLY respect your opinion. But the case for Crea is AS strong compared to Vic. And you should appreciate thats not wishful, fanboy thinking. Its simple rationale.

Which you need not accept, but respect.

@Ivy,
Because what rubs guys like Dom, myself and PB the wrong way is we take info from Capeci, the FEDS, with a HUGE amount of respect. But we also take it into context.

And on the ODD occasion whereby there's a VERY good case to disagree with Capeci or the FEDS, we only do it with a VERY good reason.

We give that source of information a huge modicum of respect, but end of day it's also fallible.

And what IRKS us beyond belief is when we have good reason (see above) to make a case that that source is wrong, you label us as selective fanboys only hearing what we choose to.

Which in knowing PB (which you do), a somewhat reputable poster such as myself and a very reputable poster such as DOM, this is not only wrong and disrespectful, but also and more importantly, wrongly dismissive of several very level headed contributors who may have something to offer you.

We are not saying we're right Ivy, just that our case is more than plausible and worth more than your dismissive responses.

Apol if Ive spoken out of place for PB and Dom.
But I think not.

No sonny u havnt spoke out of turn on behalf if me pal , I personally believe wot I've said and I stick by it , as far as I know amuso doesn't have any ally's left on the street unless conte , zappola and lastorino to thinking of starting a rebellion for a guy who is gonna die in the can . It's my understanding that all three have been demoted , I personally think ivy and PB r the most knowledgable posters on this forum so it's best to just leave it there . As for it being brought up in the scarfo jnr trial that amuso was still boss , that might have been said to make amuso sound more important than he was to secure a conviction against scarfo jnr ?? I believe amuso and scarfo Snr were un indicted members of that case

And that's where we get into the old debate about who's really "the boss?" The guy with the title but sitting in prison cell or the guy without the title but running thins on the street. Some people would claim that Galante, for all intents and purposes, really was the boss of the Bonanno family for a time before he was killed.



I assume you mean recently, since they had him as the boss going back years.

Excerpts from the recent Gang Land article:

The closest thing to an official confirmation about Amuso's status came in April from the testimony by FBI agent Kenneth Terracciano at the racketeering trial of Luchese mobster Nicodemo Scarfo Jr. in Camden Federal Court. Terracciano, a Newark-based G-man, offered a simple declarative sentence on the matter: Amuso, he said, "is the boss of the Luchese family."

"There is no doubt, Vic is the man, end of story," agreed a second longtime mob buster who's been making cases against New York wiseguys for more than 20 years. "Vic has always been the (Luchese) boss," said LEO#2.

All of that jibes with what one underworld source (call him UW#1) told us: "Vic is still in the chair, still running the show," he said. "They (Luchese mobsters) don't like the fact that he's still calling the shots, but he's not giving it up. He's the boss," said the mob associate, a longtime cohort of the Luchese and Bonanno crime families.



I don't know if I can be fairly accused of being "uptight" simply because I give more weight to what the FBI says than what internet posters say. And we've been down this road before. As a poster on another forum pointed out, we had these same arguments when forum posters claimed Nick Corozzo was really the boss of the Gambino family, not Peter Gotti. They also claimed Jackie D'Amico was not the acting boss of the family. Well, what happened? Gotti was indicted as the boss, D'Amico as the acting boss, and Corozzo as a captain. People also claimed Tommy Gioeli wasn't running things for the Colombo family. Well, he was later indicted as the acting boss. Not that any of this matters to these forum posters. Crea could be indicted tomorrow as something other than the boss and they wouldn't believe it. I swear some would rather speculate and be wrong than simply believe what the feds say and be right.



When Chin was in prison, he didn't run things on a day-to-day basis either. And nobody is saying Amuso is in a position to do that. But Amuso, like Chin, remains the boss of the family and has the final say. Otherwise, I imagine he's content to have Crea and Madonna run things and decide on issues he doesn't need to.



I don't pretend to know all the ways Amuso has maintained his position and power. But I don't really need to. I'm content to believe the FBI does know and that's why they continue to consider him as the boss. If Crea was the boss, the FBI would likely know and say so.



I know it's not posted here and I really am starting to wonder if you guys have even read the article. As I posted above, Capeci mentioned FBI agent Kenneth Terracciano, who testifed at the Nicky Scarfo Jr. trial that Amuso is still the boss. He then listed 2 other law enforcement sources that confirmed that Amuso is the boss. He then mentioned a fourth law enforcement source who seemed to agree and used the wake of Amuso's wife as circumstantial evidence. He then mentioned an underworld source who also confirmed that Amuso was still the boss. So that's 5 sources saying the same thing. But I suppose a dozen more sources could come out, all saying Amuso was the boss, and it wouldn't make any difference to you guys.

By the way, what makes you think law enforcement is assuming? You guys seem to think that the feds just guess all of this, like throwing darts, when they are very careful about their intel. Too many people here sell the feds far short and don't give them the credit they deserve. Without them and their info, whether directly through indictments or indirectly through articles like Capeci's, we would all be in the dark for the most part.



Actually, while you may not be among them, there are many people on these forums who have a history of readily dismissing what the feds or a guy like Capeci has said on any number of issues. I mentioned above about Corozzo, Gotti, D'Amico, and Gioeli. Others did the same thing regarding Chin and Fat Tony. If they did it only now and again, and with good reason, that would be more excusable. But they don't. They are almost always deferring to their own assumptions rather than people who are actually in a position to know. And I haven't come across a poster yet who, in disagreeing with the feds, didn't think they had a good reason.

As far as posters on the forums who have something to offer me, I'll say what I just said on another forum. Looking back in hindsight over my nearly 8 years on these forums, if I simply went with the varying opinions and claims of other posters, and ignored disagreeing info by the feds, I would have ended up wrong the vast majority of the time. That's been proven time and time again. Now, does that mean I just dismiss what others have to say; especially the handful of credible guys like PB? Not at all. Most of the time, I'm happy to take what a guy like PB says at face value. But, in the end, the feds are in a better position to know than anyone on these boards. And that's why I ultimately defer to them.

You make a solid argument Ivy. I respect your opinion and your rationale.

But on this particular issue, respectfully disagree.

Because I think where we differ is that you don't seem to appreciate that a lot of Fed work is best guesstimate stuff at the end of the day. If the hierarchy closes ranks, all the Feds may have to work off is low level informative work, which is distrustful to say the least, and a bad case of Chinese whispers at worst.

So in a situation where most likely NOBODY ACTUALLY KNOWS, it needs to be recognised that what EVERYBODIES doing is best guess work. And that very well could include, you, me, Capeci AND the Feds.
And in that case, which IS the case, then not only an argument can be made for Crea, but a more plausible one. Logically.

But somehow I doubt I'll convince you on this one.

I'm fine "agreeing to disagree," especially since I expect that an eventual indictment will prove Capeci's current information correct unless things actually do change between now and then.

However, again you are making assumptions about how the feds have received their intel in order to dismiss it. Don't forget that, in just documenting a guy as a made member, the feds must have verification from at least two independent sources. If they're that careful about simply identifying a soldier, should we not give them the benefit of the doubt considering the top guys? Especially considering their track record where they've been right the vast majority of the time (at least since the 1980's anyway).

How did we know Danny Leo became the Genovese acting boss back in 2006? Capeci and the feds.

How do we know Dom Cefalu is the Gambino family boss, and Frank Cali the underboss? The feds.

How do we know that the current street panel running the panel consists of Anthony Gurino, John Gambino, and Sonny Juliano? Capeci and the feds.

How did we know that Donny Shacks Montemaranodo was/is the Colombo acting underboss and Benjamin Castellazzo the official Colombo underboss? The feds.

How do we know that Tommy DiFiore is Bonanno acting boss/official underboss? The feds.

How did we know Tony Salerno was the official boss?


All I'm saying is the Feds are fallible and in this one they better have decent info/evidence to sell it because logic and rationale isn't on their side.

And Ivy, they come out with info to back this up? I'll be the first guy to eat my hat.

But until then, gotta go the more rational conclusion.

My thanks in taking the time for your considered responses. Appreciated.

The Fat Tony example is the one major example the FBI detractors have. But I don't think anyone can argue it was the exception to the rule. And how did we eventually know that Fat Tony was only acting boss for the Chin? The feds, Cafaro, and several independent FBI wiretaps and bugs.

Are the feds infallible. No. But their track record from the 1980's to the present is extremely good. Good enough that to so quickly doubt them, as many do, is entirely unwarranted.

Your response Ivy, was meant to read:

"Likewise Sonny, it's been a pleasure debating the issue with you. I know, I, Ivy League, is definitely the wiser from it."

Or something similar.

*cheesy grin*

How about, do you like your hat with or without barbecue sauce?

Ivy, I'm happy to agree with the FBI on 99% of what they say, but on this occasion I'm going with someone who I trust and think is in the know, why is that so hard to comprehend? the FBI make mistakes every now and then, as of 2012 the FBI and Capeci thought Crea was official boss, I wouldn't be surprised if the feds get two completely different sides to the story of who's boss between the Bronx/EH and the Brooklyn faction. Like some people say, it could be just LE/Capeci trying to cause a stir, or it could be Amuso holding the title with no say in what goes on.

As for the LE agent who claimed Amuso has final say, that's laughable considering pretty much EVERYONE loyal to him was locked up for a significant amount of time and the power had shifted back to the Bronx.

FBI don't even know who the underboss is, it's killing them.

/me chuckles

More of a hot English mustard man myself...


Jeezus I wish somebody would flip already to put this to bed...

Here is my semi worthless two cents: one, Ivy is right, the Feds have by far the best track record when it comes to identifying a hieracrchy. A trend is a trend, outliers aside. Two, if Crea is the real power in the family, he would be a very smart man to let Amuso stay as boss. That just seems obvious to me. It's not like they are whacking guys, anyway, so when do they even need his input? Throw him an envelope, consult him when need be, and let the Feds speak his name in court, not yours. Maybe I'm off base, but that just seems obvious to me.

I mean "official boss" or "acting boss" who gives a fuck? If Crea decides to break rank who's going to stop the guy? It's just a title and seems to be a ceremonial one, anyway. I guess what I'm saying is why would Crea bother disagreeing? Everyone is making money and no one is gettingn killed. Let the guy be "boss".

Words of wisdom there mighty.

+1

And in the words of the immortal PB, what actually is 'official boss'? We and the Feds use these terms MUCH more than your guy on the street.

In terms of title, Vic may still wear it, but in terms of the power on the street...? Well, it all goes about how you define boss now doesn't it. The title or the power. In this case two very different things..

Just thought I would reiterate while everyone in the states is asleep , Steven crea is the official lucchese family boss , at least nobody can argue bak with me for a few hours because your all tucked up in your beds ha ha

I respect PB's opinion about as much as anyone. As I've said, he's among the handful of "local guys" I take seriously. And I'm usually content to take what he says at face value, as I have certain other people. However, I've never believed ANYONE on these forums is in a better position to know things than the feds. It doesn't matter who they are, where they live, or who they know. They're just not going to have that much inside info readily and directly available to them. Not unless they're presently involved in the life and in a sensitive position within the mob itself. But I don't think there's anyone like that posting on internet forums currently.



Says who? Going back to at least the late 1990's, the feds had Crea as the underboss and later acting boss.



When I say "official," it implies a permanent nature. In other words, the official boss is recognized as such and has that position until he either dies or steps down. It's opposed to the "acting boss," which is of a transitory nature. Previously, Crea was the official underboss and acting boss, while Amuso remained the official boss in prison. Amuso was the boss but, because he was not in a position to run the family directly, Crea was the acting boss on the street. Now we still have Amuso as the official boss, Madonna as the current acting or street boss (same thing), and if I had to guess, Crea is probably still official underboss like he has been previously. That's where the whole acting boss thing came from. Either because the actual boss is in prison or has died and hasn't officially been replaced yet. The FBI didn't make this stuff up. These are real positions used by the LCN itself.

So crea is now underboss to matthew Madonna , he is slipping further and further down the ladder , u will have crea as an associate by the end of the week ivy ha ha

Keep in mind that I'm speculating that Crea remains the official underboss. With Amuso being the boss, and Madonna being the acting or street boss, it's the only logical conclusion that I can think of considering it was his position previously.

Also remember that the Gang Land article says Madonna is "Crea's right-hand-man and serves as Amuso's street boss." So it appears Madonna is answerable to Crea.

So in your opinion ivy , do u think crea is not as important as everyone makes out ??

If by "important as everyone makes out" you mean the boss or #1 guy who has the ultimate say, no, I don't. It appears Amuso is still that. But that's not to say Crea isn't important. He's been the single top Lucchese guy on the street for years now except when he was in prison and there was the 3 man ruling panel. He's simply still answerable to Amuso.

I would like to know were migliore fits into all this

I must admit u have a very convincing argument , I still think crea is the official boss though pal . I can't see were amuso has the support of the guys in the street , his ally's lastorino and zappola and even conte have all been demoted , that should tell everyone were the power is , firmly with crea

Amuso still has allies
Nobody has mentioned.it but joe dibenedetto is a capo and amuso son in law and involved in the unions
And im sure crea is acting boss and im sure Madonna handles.everything on the street
For.20 years now all the capos have acting capos even if the capo is free to further insulate themselves

I could still see Amuso running things from his prison cell, but Crea has inserted himself as the ''Boss'' Whether it's official or he's just acting, I'm not sure.

Crea has been a major powerhouse for 20 years, so the power lies with him.

Migliore, He's prolly a old senior captain who acts in a advisory role.

Madonna, he prolly run things on the streets for Crea and Amuso as streetboss.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Madonna was made until he got out of prison for the Nicky Barnes thing which was late 90's, and that combined with him being an East Harlem/Bronx guy lends me to believe he has no ties to Amuso whatsoever

Madonna did the induction in 06 of the perna kids at the house in nj. I think crea was in jail or restrictions. There must be a lot of guys made way before Madonna read he was made after his real ease in 95. Wasn't the acting boss around that time Joe defede. They were a fucked family after gas pipe flipped in 94. I think there was a Staten island soldier who flip around 2006. So 8 yes since there last rat. Not bad. Colombia had like 10 made guys flip since then. Think gambinos had the gay guy about 8 yes ago.

Since when did he become a captain?



That's just it. Amuso, being in prison for life, isn't in a position to "run things" on a day-to-day basis. He's able to maintain his position as the boss, be consulted on major issues, and have the final say, but it would be Crea and Madonna who are running things directly on the street. So, if Crea was the boss, there would be no reason for Amuso to be running anything. Amuso remains in the picture because he is still the top guy.

Madonna is amazing all the shit he survived, its shows a serious sentencing problem that all the guys he plugged got life with out, and he is home as a way bigger drug dealer.

r Sunday I was at the bar and on TV was horde racing foxs1 channel and the guy name who was broadcasting the race was migliore and they broke into a segment about pigeon racing and how his grand pops was the man a legend so guessing it was Neil I wasn't paying to much attention but that's pretty cool the guy goes.on to say you can buy these pigeon shirts off his website. Anyone else see this.

You're talking about the ex-jockey, Richie Migliore. Neil's not his grandfather.

I.F. Convention New York 2011 – Photo report | Pigeon Paradise
www.pipa.be › Home › Trips and Visits › Trips
23 Nov 2011 - The next day, a visit to one of New York's most famous fanciers was planned: the Lion Gate Lofts, known as the lofts of Neil Migliore. He has a ...
This is the pigeon website , there r a lot of pics of migliore on here . Anyone seen these ??

Ya pizza your rite I was watching and talking to people and it just pop in my head his grand dad must be Neil. They were selling pigeon shirts for the clubs 50th annerversery or some date but ya the guy was a small jockey. Thought since there in upstate NY there must be a connection after seeing all those pics of the guy Neil.and his crew if pigeon racers. Oh shit Obama on TV got to go.

Steven Crea is mentioned from 19:00 of this Selwyn Raab interview.

I remember that interview. That was late 2005, I believe. Because the hardcover edition of "Five Families" was already out, and he mentions the second edition coming out "next fall."

Great book. Gotta give the guy his due.

Probably wasn't that hard for him either. Much of the material in the book is from his articles covering the mob over the years.

I'm glad you mentioned that because I thought I was the only one who noticed that. He probably had to do very little work. I'm sure the editor framed out the book with his articles dating back forty or so years, and that Raab just had to add some new narration to tie things up.

I have no information on this but I can say the Feds had a good reason to be fooled by the fat tony situation. Although he may not have been the official boss he was representing the genovese on the commission and setting policies in Cleveland and across the country. He def could have been the most influential gangster in the country. Now that the families don't intermingle as much, it is much harder to get real information on hierarchys. But whoever the boss is doesn't matter as much as who's making the most, making most policy decisions,etc and that is obviously crea

There you go. This was a "hot button" topic on the boards when Capeci broke this (non) story.

Bottom line, who's calling the shots on the streets? Who's free, and who's gonna die in a cage? Who has a better view right now, Stevie, from his big house in Tuckahoe, or Vic, from his cell in Maryland?

It's all a matter of practicality. It doesn't matter what these charts say. Those things are put together by the Feds, the media, and by geeks on the Internet. What matters is the street itself. And on the street, where it counts, in practical terms, Stevie and Matty are the power now.

Amuso is still as much the boss of the Luccheses as Peter Gotti is still the boss of the Gambinos. Is there one iota of evidence he has had any say in any decision the family has made or that he has gotten an envelope the past 5 years? As far as I know Peter Gotti was the official boss when he was sent to prison so if the FBI told us he was still the boss, would anyone believe it? That's the position Amuso is in right now

Except nobody, including the feds, are saying Peter Gotti is the boss right now. It's only because of the feds that we know Dom Cefalu took over and Peter Gotti no longer holds that position. And, while many on these forums want to believe otherwise, Peter Gotti was definitely the boss for a time after John died in prison. He received the tribute and had the clout, no matter how many want to think Nick Corozzo or someone else was the "real boss."

As for Amuso, he apparently has enough clout that the feds still hold him in that position and Capeci was willing to correct himself. And it's not because they slapped the label on him. It's because the Lucchese Family itself holds him in that position. Nobody is saying he's in a position to run things day to day. Nobody is saying a guy like Crea doesn't have a lot of influence as one of the top guys on the street. But Amuso apparently is still the top guy and Crea and everyone else ultimately answers to him. We can't see what goes on behind the scenes but back when DeFede was acting boss, he got in trouble for not passing enough money onto Amuso. In Capeci's retraction, he talked about how Amuso ordered everyone to show up for his wife's wake and that's what happened.

DeFede was acting boss in 1998. This is 2014. Where is the proof he's involved? Why are all his Brooklyn guys broken or shelved after 20 years in prison? Families normally reward stand up guys.

Daidone was acting boss in the early 2000's and he was one of Amuso's top guys.

That was 2002. This is 2014. Where is the proof he has any influence? Any wiretaps, witnesses? Cite one order he has given as boss in the past 5-10 years.

If you want to use the lack of specific examples of orders Amuso has given in order to justify not believing he's the boss, go ahead. The posters in the past who thought Nick Corozzo was the real boss had their reasons as well. The sources supplying Capeci with the info should be enough, to say nothing of what the FBI says. But, as always, people on these forums think they know better.

It is fairly unprecedented, is it not, for a boss to be ousted whilst imprisoned?

Gotti, Gigante, Persico, Rastelli, Corallo.... all maintained power while behind bars; why is it any different with Amuso?

Nobody questioning Crea being the big shot on the streets of course.

Here we go again. Jesus Christ all-fucking-mighty, can't you guys ever let anything fucking go?

@Mulberry: You'll NEVER convince Ivy that Jerry Capeci and the Feds are wrong. Ever.

@Ivy: You'll never convince a guy who grew up downtown or in the outer boroughs that you can know anything about the American Mafia if you grew up in Utah, no matter how much you've studied it.

Can't anyone just agree to disagree and stop with the sarcasm?

Oh my fucking god , I thought this thread died a death weeks ago , please please let's not go down this road again . Some people believe amuso is boss ( there wrong ) and some people ( the sane ones ) believe Steven crea is boss . Please please let's move on

Corallo
Scarfo
Stanfa
All lost power

It depends on how many supporters the guy has on the streets when he goes away and if he still wants to hold onto power. Rastelli had power because he had supporters and wasn't sentenced to life. Corallo gave up power. Gigante and Persico were able to hold on because they had a huge number of supporters on the streets. Same with John Gotti. Peter Gotti has no supporters so he lost all power. Same with Scarfo and Stanfa. The question here is how many supporters Amuso has on the streets?

Which sources told Capeci and the FBI that Crea was the boss? You admit they were wrong last tine but this time there is absolutely no way they can be wrong on the same topic. What does Corozzo have to do with Crea?

This.

Lets all stop banging heads and trying to convince those that have made up their minds to change them.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Amuso probably cant even control his bowels at this point, to claim he is running the family in any capacity is a just completely ridiculous.

Little Nicky's back. Yay!

How've you been, kid?

Im doing ok. Things just busy around here.

anything exciting on ggbb lately? beyond redebating gotti's career or who was the toughest mafia guy?

On any given day:

1) Just insert same rehashed and regurgitated topic.

2) Argue until someone gets personal.

3) SC locks the thread.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

This is great because you managed to crap on Ivy with both points.

That wasn't my intention. I'm one of the few guys who actually gets along well with him. I was just trying to tell the BOTH of them that when they're that far apart on something, it's best to just leave it alone. Because no one ever changes any else's mind on this stuff (or about anything else on message boards, for that matter).

And it's good to see you posting again too, ItalianForever. Stick around for awhile .

Thanks pizza. I am always lurking but haven't posted recently. What's cicale up too these days? Did he get a book or tv deal.

Who knows? With any luck he'll choke to death reading one of my posts. That would please me a great deal .

Anyway, I get my haircut over Crosby Avenue, just off Westchester. The girl who cuts my hair told me that she saw him when he was making one of those retarded videos for YouTube, and that he had the nerve to go into one of the Irish bars on Middletown for lunch.

So not only is he a lying piece of human garbage. He's a shameless, lying piece of human garbage.

Are you fucking kidding me?

If anyone touched him he would run to his handler and they would roll an assault rap on him into a major rico as a couple predicates. Low life piece of shit.

That's a great point that can NOT be understated.

People are always talking about how forensics and crime scene teams have discouraged the mob from killing people this past decade. And that's certainly true to an extent. But here in New York those cameras are everywhere, even in the outer boroughs.

You'd have to literally be insane to roll up on someone in broad daylight and pop them in New York City today. Because Big Brother is here. And he's not going away.

Well, this thread was interesting. Never saw so many people agree to disagree, again and again, over and over.

Not knowing jack about this topic and after reading through this, I would say that Amuso is looking more like the real Boss than Crea.

People might be forgetting that the very first thing the Feds do when they begin surveillance is try and make out the hierarchies of a family by visual observation. This is before the bugs and wires taps reveal anything. That's the first thing they do. Now in this situation, you have a powerful street boss of some kind (Crea) commanding great respect, and the Feds still say he is NOT the man. That's a little profound. If you think the Feds are lying about that, you need to produce some scenarios as to why they would lie.

Boss doesn't mean who runs the company, Boss is who owns the company. That goes for both legitimate and illicit affairs.

Is it impossible that Amuso is the 'owner' or biggest shareholder/investor in the Lucchese Family's principal cash crops? No it isn't.

I meant when Tramunti was filling in for Corallo when he was in prison. I know Corallo gave up power voluntarily when he went away for life.

Some believe that Trumunti was only acting boss until Corallo got out of prison. Maybe it was the other way around and Corallo was acting for Trumunti until he died

http://youtu.be/EwnP7jhTrlQ


I tell you who the boss is... Denzel is the boss.

Im still wrapping it around my head that this guy was the Boss of an NY Family at one point.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFbzsAZe9UY

Never saw that before, at least I don't think but funny.

I imagine those Gambino guys might have been very alarmed by that clown looking for John Gotti....being as that's how Paul Castellano got whacked, allegedly by four guys dressed pretty ridiculously.

That clown video is priceless. I've watched it and laughed so many times. Not only is the actor a gag reel within himself, Little Joe & Peter Gotti are just standing there entertaining the guy. Peter's like, "Oh you're here to deliver balloons, sounds good to me" -shut's door, leaving Little Joe out there in front of the cameras-

Little Joe is just has this look on his face like "Get the fuck outta here!!" And Norman Dupont, the convicted killer Norman Dupont, sees nothing wrong with the scenario at all.

Has anyone ascertained who he is yet?

I'm fine agreeing to disagree. I expect time will prove the feds right as they are almost always.

Needless to say, when it comes to correct intel, the feds batting average is light years ahead of the speculators on these forums.

It matters little if a lot of these guys "grew up downtown or in the outer boroughs" because they live in their own world.




Neither Capeci or the FBI has divulged their sources. But it was only Capeci who had to backtrack, which he did. It appears the FBI has consistently maintained that Amuso remains the official boss of the family. And that Capeci would go as far as to retract his previous claim suggests he is pretty convinced as well.

This is similar to Corozzo in the past because we would have people on the forums claiming Corozzo was the guy really running things in the Gambino family. The real boss. Not Peter Gotti. Of course, this was nothing more than pure speculation on their part. Did they have any inside knowledge about this? Nope. It just "made more sense" to them that Corozzo was the boss so they took it upon themselves to put him on the throne. And they didn't care what the FBI said. Nor did they have anything to say when Corozzo was eventually indicted as a captain.

This is basically what some of you guys are now doing with Crea.

That doesn't sound like the Ivy League I know. What have you done with him, you fiend?


Yes, time will tell. It usually does. And you know me, that's the reason why I try to squash these back and forth arguments before they really get out of hand. You have the patience to respond to an 8 or 9 page thread. Over. And over. And over. I don't.


Generally speaking, I agree with this statement. And I'm forever going to bat for you with these dopey "neighborhood" guys who overhear something in a bar and post it as Gospel on the boards. So please don't bunch me up with these guys. I've never claimed to be anything but what I am: And Italian American guy who's lived in the Bronx for 55 years and knows a little bit of this and a little bit of that.


Beats living in Utah.

Sorry, pal. You opened the door to that one. It was just too good to pass up .

Indeed, there was a time I would argue a point until hell froze over. I was naive enough to think if you presented enough facts to people, that would convince them. Now, I just don't have the time or energy for it anymore. Maybe that's what married life does to you.



Yeah, the fresh air, low-crime rate, and not sitting in traffic for and hour or two just to make it home from work really sucks.

It's good that you realized this sooner rather than later .

*Dis n Dat

From Elmore Leonard's Ten Rules of Writing:

Rule Number 7: Use regional dialect, patois, sparingly.

Good enough for the greatest crime fiction writer of all time, good enough for me .

PB is using words like "patois". He's a fancy man. He must be on the Ketel One tonight.

You know it, Lady .

When are you turning 56? We oughta get you a cake!

That's directed at PB just for the record.

Jesus, I've only been 55 for two weeks. Don't rush me .

After all the times you said "I'm almost 55" it's finally here.
Happy belated Birthday P!

Sorry I thought you were 55 why didn't you tell me we could of had a party at that bowling alley and carmela woulda got a few pizza's . A Pizza Party 4 Pizzaboy ..Happy Belated !