Wiseguys who never committed a murder.

Is it common these days for people to be made without killing for the family or being involved in a killing?

Does being a good earner negate the need? Michael Franzese for instance is an example, he even rose to Capo. Although he was from a connected family to begin with so maybe it's different for guys like him

At least 75 percent of wiseguys have never pulled the trigger, and it's always been that way.

That has to be the biggest misconception about Mobsters PB. Yeah some have pulled the trigger, but it's definitely not a prerequisite. Making money and kicking up it's probably one of the most important thing.

Did John Gotti ever personally kill somebody? He was involved in the McBratney murder but Ralph Galione was the one who pulled the trigger.

If it was still a perquisite the families would be down to crumbs.

Yeah, and in the 25 percent of the wiseguys who take part in a murder (if it's even that high a percentage), it's only a very small percentage who actually pull the trigger.

A guy may be a lookout, or a driver, or even just take part in the planning. And because he's culpable in the eyes of the law, they consider that enough.

I believe Gotti and Ruggerio held McBratney back he was a big strong smelly dude

It was never the prerequisite. Just think how many bodies would have been on the street if that was the rule.

Massino apparently said Gotti was the triggerman in the Vito Borelli hit, who was Paul Castellano's daughter's boyfriend who apparently insulted him by saying Castellano looked like Frank Perdue.

You smelled him?

Committing a murder to be a made man isn't what is important, after being a good earner its about the willingness to commit a murder. There aren't contracts around for every guy to make his bones, so it isn't possible, its also why (other than to make things go smoothly) they group so many people into one hit like the Mcbrantey killing so each guy can have some level of involvement.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said, NE .


And in this day and age, with the murders being way down, made members who've never even cracked an egg are becoming more and more common .

Most have not done what you were asking in the question.

The majority of people who work or have worked for the Italian mafias both in the United States and in Italy are not made, dons/capos, or in any sort of major leadership position.

And in this day and age, with the murders being way down, made members who've never even cracked an egg are becoming more and more common . [/quote]

"Cracked an egg" Haven't heard that in a long while PB!

Well, you're one of maybe 5 or 6 members who's even older than I am .

LOL, Yes we are getting old. I love when someone on here asks if they should read the book Donnie Brasco. Shit that came out in 1988. If you haven't read it by now you must be really young. That was 26 years ago! I got underwear older than that!

Shoes make a much better metaphor. Your drawers are kinda creepy .

LOL! yeah that's it SHOES, I got shoes older than that!

I think Jerry Angiulo never pulled the trigger, but ordered several murders after being made.

I was only born in 88, Jesus you guys are getting pretty old.

lol..just kidding.

I've also questioned gotti's personal involvement in a killing. he was a tough guy and definetly ordered many murders but i still am nto sure if he actually pulled the trigger. McBratney was shot by ralph galione and was held back by ruggiero and gotti so he got credit for the murder. Joe Massino "claims" gotti murdered vito borelli but i think massino was talking out of his ass, first of all gotti was probably in jail/on the run at that point in 1975 and secondly i doubt paul would give it to him anyway since gotti wanst even made at that point. Tommy desimone was murdered by Tommy Agro although im sure gotti was involved in the planning since he hated tommy and he was acting capo of teh ebrgin at that point. Anthony Plate was ordered killed by Neil and from what i ahve read willie boy angelo and gotti went down to florida to take care of it. So gotti possibly was involved but more than likely willie boy and angelo took care of it. Now John Favara is another possibility. We have all heard rumors he cut him up with a chainsaw but more than likely angelo,anthony rampino,and the carneglia brothers took care of it since gotti was in florida at the time to prove his alibi to the police. Now im just speculating but i've read up a lot on gotti and he didnt seem like he was a shooter but he was definetly a guy who got in fistfights a lot in his life

Seems like scarcity when boss wanted all guys who were made it proposed to be in on a hit. Famous underrboss from Boston Jerry a. Never pulled the trigger but order a ton of hits and was a ww 2 hero. Huge earner and his 5 brothers killed. Chin took money guys I believe predico to gotti. But the Philly guys got there hands dirty for a small family. Even Merlino guys all killers.

Phone auto corrects all names scarfo

Im sure the bosses try to get most made guys who couldn't get in on a hit to do some dirty work like shooting someone in the arm or busting a guys head open with a bat at the least. Not sure if the purpose for guys to participate in murders was more to do with making sure there were no undercover cops or informants being inducted or to make them look the most ruthless syndicate?

Yeah a tough street guy for sure. I read an article recently about Gotti and his so called financial advisor Lewis 'Matzo Boy' Kasman. A Jewish businessman who fell in with the mob. Apparently they became so close that Gotti organised his own funeral through him when he was dying.

He states that Gotti accepted that the Favara incident was an accident. He felt forced to act on it, although he'd never admit Kasman thinks that Gotti regretted what happened to Favara.

Personally i dont buy that he felt it was a "accident" even though it clearly was an accident. I mean the whole gotti family is crazy(even more so the women) and wanted Favara dead.

So your think Gotti was under the impression that someone sent a furniture maker to run over his kid? I don't understand what you think he thought happen if it wasn't an "accident" you think Gotti thought it was a hit?

Ya the wife apparently took it very badly and started badgering John about getting back at him. There were stories floating around like Favara not getting his front bumper fixed after the accident.

Apparently Victoria (wife) beat him away with a baseball bat when tried to come to the house to pay his respects.

I think it serves both purposes. The number one purpose is to make sure cops don't get in. No cop is going to commit a murder or seriously injure someone. The second is to make sure you have killers in your crew when the need arises to whack someone.

Not a Gotti fan, however for him to be that close to Dellacroce there has to be a body somewhere, those guys were no BS holes in the ground all over the city types. And to say well Gotti "made money for the family and got a pass on clipping someone" I wasn't his accountant and I wouldn't have first hand knowledge, I will say Gotti was at best a thug more than a moneymaker. And Dellacroce was a tough guy first, not to say money wasn't important to him, however if you were to be around him you you had to be 100% LCN which at that time said you had to have a corpse somewhere. Was a different time then, murders in the city then were done based upon the person not the crime. Now they have a DNA kit out for every junkie dying with a spike in their arm. Back then most they would have done was put you in a garbage bag and sent you to the cooler till someone if anyone claimed you. And all the names everyone mentioned are retread names, there's hundreds if not thousands of guys around that life back then that disappeared that you never heard of. "Goes with the territory" now every scumbags wife gets a special on the Discovery channel about how great a husband she had, what a good father he was when he wasn't pushing H, scamming or robbing.

Again i was just speculating but im getting information from past associates and fbi agents who said gotti was a murderer but he wasnt really a triggerman. he was a capo for a long time so he really didnt need to pull teh trigger

Not pull in the trigger as a skipper I get, so there telling you when he was a soldier he didn't kill anyone?

Well the McBratney hti was probably the closest to a perosnal murder buT he never pulle dteh trigger, Ralph galione did. Like i said im not a mind reader or anything like that just speculating from teh research i have done. In college i took a few courses on organized crime and one of the speakers i had a few times was a agent on the Gambino squad in the 80's and he knew everything about gotti

Ok, this agent missed the 70's when Gotti was getting his hands dirty. Nothing for nothing, you keep going to the McBrantey hit. That's the one you read about, there's so much other stuff that doesn't show up in articles and what not. I just wouldn't put anything last that guy, like I said the crew he was with was pretty tough so it's hard for me to picture them accepting a guy who hadn't killed anyone. And just so we are clear, I never said you were a mind reader you stated that you were "told" these things by informants and agents. Let's not start with the snot nose comments coming my direction for asking a question if what resources you were quoting.

Dude why are you being nasty? I wasnt trying to be nasty with you. When i said "mind reader" i was joking around. I was just trying to have a civil conversation with you. By the way I dont keep mentioning the McBratney murder. in fact i mentioned Vito Borelli, Tony Plate, Tommy Desimone,Joseph Spione,and Favara as possible victims. jesus Christ man i said many times taht i may be wrong i was just giving an opinion

Not being nasty at all, not going to have an argument over John Gotti. A blind man can see two things, one Gotti was a murdering scumbag, two that "mind reader" comment wasn't in a context of a joke. And you've brought others up ok? McBrantney is your focul argument point. My opinion is as stated above, your is Gotti didn't mixed anyone. Enough said.

Overreaction. First of all im sorry if you took the "mind reader" comment as a shot at you. in fact it had nothing to with you at all. In fact i was being very respectful to you because i valued your opinion. So not sure where all thsi came from lol. Anyway i ahte Gotti as much as you do so my point wanst to make him a hero, in fact i think he is a scumbag. I was simply responding to a poster who said he wanst sure if gotti had personally killed someone which we dont know if he did or didnt

Gotti was involved in violent street gangs and the mafia for about 30 years before he became a capo. It's hard to believe he never killed anyone during that time. The 1970's were a violent time and that was when he was an up and coming associate and then soldier. There's a reason why he was sent on two very important hits, the McBratney and Plate contracts.

Come on, guys. Just let it go. When there's NO WAY of knowing, what's the sense in speculating?

You both agree that he wasn't a nice guy, and that people are dead because of him. What the fuck is the difference if he pulled the trigger or not?

Kasman also states that John and Jnr didn't exactly get along, Gotti viewed him as bumbling buffoon, but a dangerous buffon who was making terrible decisions and furthering their stay in the spotlight after Sr's trial

Is that why the other 4 families hate the Gambinos? because the Gotti's made them a laughing stock? I bet old Carlo is cursing them from Hell.

It doesnt matter personally. its good to speculate it makes good conversation lol

I don't know. I mean the average cop would never want to kill any innocent person, but I think a lot of them would have no problem killing a criminal like a wiseguy. Cops usually get the benefit of the doubt from prosecutors and judges. Do you think they're going to bring charges against a cop or federal agent who killed a criminal while working undercover? I doubt it, all the cop would have to do is claim self defense.

I'm talking about doing a hit.

I know. I think some of them would do a hit, just to not be found out as a cop. I remember an interview with Joseph Pistone where he said if he had had to do a hit he would have. I will try to find it.

I was just trying to help avoid a five page back and forth that eventually gets closed for going nowhere. But do what you want.

Yeah tahst why i sent him a PM to avoid just that

If he said that then he's even more full of it than I thought

Here it is Mulberry and Fleming_Ave.....

"On the orders of his own capo, Dominick (Sonny Black) Napolitano, Pistone headed out to find Indelicato - with a .25-caliber automatic.

It turned out the caller had bum information, but the former lawman admits he would have pulled the trigger on Indelicato before jeopardizing his life or the operation. "If Bruno's there, he's gone," Pistone writes

If I have to put a bullet in his head, I will, and I'll deal with the federal government and the Staten Island DA later. ... There's no doubt they both would charge me for murder. The Bureau would brand me a rogue agent and hang me out."

http://www.thechicagosyndicate.com/2007/01/joe-pistone-confesses-to-crimes-as-mob.html
Monday, January 29, 2007
Joe Pistone Confesses to Crimes as Mob Mole
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Friends of ours: Bonanno Crime Family, Gambino Crime Family, Benjamin "Lefty Guns" Ruggiero, Dominick "Sonny Black" Napolitano, Anthony "Bruno" Indelicato, Carmine Galante
Friends of mine: "Donnie Brasco"

Legendary FBI agent Joe Pistone is confessing for the first time that he broke the law during the years he spent undercover as mob wanna-be Donnie Brasco.

Warehouse burglaries. Beatings. Truck hijackings. And even a conspiracy to murder a Bonanno crime family capo.

In his new memoir, Pistone details the crimes he committed to prove his loyalty to the gang he eventually took down. "Sometimes you have to do stuff you don't normally do, you wouldn't do," Pistone told the Daily News, which got an exclusive peek at "Donnie Brasco: Unfinished Business."

For instance, there was the phone call that came in 1981 when Pistone and his mob buddies were playing cards in Brooklyn's Motion Lounge.

It was a tip that Bonanno big Anthony (Bruno) Indelicato, who took part in the infamous 1979 rubout of Gambino boss Carmine Galante, was camped out on Staten Island.

On the orders of his own capo, Dominick (Sonny Black) Napolitano, Pistone headed out to find Indelicato - with a .25-caliber automatic.

It turned out the caller had bum information, but the former lawman admits he would have pulled the trigger on Indelicato before jeopardizing his life or the operation. "If Bruno's there, he's gone," Pistone writes.

"If I have to put a bullet in his head, I will, and I'll deal with the federal government and the Staten Island DA later. ... There's no doubt they both would charge me for murder. The Bureau would brand me a rogue agent and hang me out."

During his six years infiltrating Sonny Black's vicious crew, Pistone dug up enough evidence to put away nearly 200 mobsters, all while making life-or-death decisions on how far to take his role-playing.

Now 65, the New Jersey native lives with his wife in an unidentified location, but will come out of hiding for a book tour in the coming weeks.

Over the years, Pistone - portrayed by Johnny Depp in the 1997 movie "Donnie Brasco" - has been cagey when discussing how he gained the trust of an insular gang of suspicious men because revealing more could have damaged prosecutions. But his most revealing book to date details the incredible lengths he went to.

Take the beating he delivered on two druggies dumb enough to stick up Pistone and his mob pal Benjamin (Lefty Guns) Ruggiero in the stairwell of a Little Italy walkup. "You just saw two dead punks run down the stairs," Ruggiero told him.

At Ruggiero's urging, Pistone caught up with them a few days later near Little Italy and meted out the punishment. "He hit the pavement as if I'd had a roll of dimes in my right fist," Pistone writes.

"I looked down at the kid on the ground and realized he was out cold and so I sprung suddenly and hauled off an overhand right on the other one and he went down ... "From the kidney blows they bled piss for weeks. And until the breaks healed they had no use of their fingers for such things as shooting a gun."

It was savage, but Pistone says the beating saved their lives. "Otherwise they would have got killed," Pistone said. "Either I go take care of it or they [the mob] will. You don't stick up a wiseguy and live to tell about it." He's quick to point out that the assaults he carried out always involved thieves or other wiseguys. "No citizens got hurt," he said.

Pistone also admits getting cuts of between $2,500 and $5,000 from warehouse burglaries he took part in but says he turned over the money to the FBI.

He doesn't offer details on the hijackings he carried out. But he admits that "my participation in Mafia hijacking has always been an open sore for me, something that I have hesitated to talk about."

Even after 30 years, Pistone is still angry that the FBI didn't let him stay undercover longer so that he could become a made man. "Imagine if I had been made," Pistone writes. "It would have been the biggest humiliation the Mafia had ever suffered. And it was the one chance the FBI would ever have to pull it off.

"Imagine the embarrassment for the Mafia from coast to coast and all the way to Sicily when the news got out that the exalted Bonanno crime family had made an agent."

Thanks to Thomas Zambito

Well to be fair to the poster, he did say...or be involved in a murder.

They attribute 19 murders to Sammy Gravano, yet he only pulled the trigger on the first one.

The rest he was either there to supervise, or just involved in the set ups.

Yeah, totally agree.

You think the Outfit just decided to one day say to Donald Angelini, "You know, Don, we've been looking at our records and we don't have you down as being involved in a murder. You can take the millions of dollars you have generated for us in gambling and hit the road!"

Nowadays, that 75% number is probably even higher. I'd even say it's closer to 90%.

Now I like JP, BUT, WHAT, A, LOAD, OF, SHIT.

He wouldve hit Bruno?
PLEASE.

He's clutching at straws to hold onto a brief moment in time 30yrs ago. Its over, let it go.

Gotti was "muscle" in his early days, offcourse he killed people, on the quack quack tapes, when they where talking about john not wanting to tangle with the demeo crew, gene and quack quack said john had killed around 10 people.

Joe Pistone has the balls to sue the guys who made the movie "American Gangster" but he always spits fire with dumb shit like this dummy