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Little italy pre 90s.....

Posted By: vitovito

Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 06:37 PM

What was Little italy like pre 90s.....?

According to some articles, there were very few tourists and lots more social clubs, and everybody knew everybody etc.....

Anybody here been to the san gennaro festival? How does it compare to back in the 70s and 80s.

As a unknown face, would you have felt safe going for a late night drink in say mulberry st.

Very trendy place to live nowadays, i would guess an apartment there would cost a fortune.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 06:55 PM

I'll be happy to answer all of your questions. But first, how old are you and where are you from?

I only ask because you've been asking some very naive questions since you signed up. And that's okay. It's just that we've had problems with people trolling here lately.

And welcome to the board, Vito smile.
Posted By: vitovito

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:05 PM

Why would i be trolling asking a few questions about little italy? I aint never been to new york..and im 25...

What would you rather i posted, questions such as What cologne do mobsters wear, Tall mobsters,
How many shooters does the mob have etc etc....

Those type of questions were all posted recently and are silly! However people still answer them! lol

My questions are legit compared to the majority of recent posts!
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:06 PM

Okay, fair enough. But you'd be surprised at some of the knuckleheads that we've had here over the years smile.

Originally Posted By: vitovito
What was Little italy like pre 90s.....?

According to some articles, there were very few tourists and lots more social clubs, and everybody knew everybody etc.....

There have always been tourists in Little Italy. Just not as many as, say, the past 25 years. Restaurants like Angelo's and Vincent's that have been in existence for a hundred years have always catered to the tourist trade.

Originally Posted By: vitovito
Anybody here been to the san gennaro festival? How does it compare to back in the 70s and 80s.

All my life, and I'm almost 55. But it's nothing like it used to be. It literally took up thirty square blocks when I was growing up. Today it just runs on Mulberry, from Canal to about Kenmare.

Originally Posted By: vitovito
As a unknown face, would you have felt safe going for a late night drink in say mulberry st.

Of course. It was always a "safe" neighborhood, even before the gentrification.

Originally Posted By: vitovito
Very trendy place to live nowadays, i would guess an apartment there would cost a fortune.

A one bedroom in SoHo will run you roughly $2500 a month today.

At the 2010 census there wasn't a single Italian born resident living in the 10013 zip code. You're much more likely to run into a gay couple than a wiseguy on Mulberry Street today lol.
Posted By: vitovito

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:36 PM

Thanks for the info!.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: vitovito
Thanks for the info!.

My pleasure, pal. And again, I'm sorry if I insulted you. Like I said in the pm, I guess I'm getting paranoid because of all the trolls and troublemakers we've had here lately smile.
Posted By: domwoods74

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:43 PM

Pizzaboy your getting like casso and scarfo , u will be whacking people next , ha ha . Hope your ok buddy and your family r well
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: domwoods74
Pizzaboy your getting like casso and scarfo , u will be whacking people next , ha ha . Hope your ok buddy and your family r well

lol lol

We're fine, Dom. Thanks smile .

My son just got home from college for the summer, so it's nice. Until he starts asking for money, that is lol
Posted By: HuronSocialAthletic

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:49 PM

Honestly fucking pathetic & disgraceful what is happening to This country, especially in big cultural metropolises like NY, Chi, Boston, SF. Shameful.
Posted By: HuronSocialAthletic

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 07:49 PM

.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: HuronSocialAthletic
Honestly fucking pathetic & disgraceful what is happening to This country, especially in big cultural metropolises like NY, Chi, Boston, SF. Shameful.

Times change, demographics change.

No one laments the passing of "Old New York" more than I do. But you have to roll with the punches. What can you do? ohwell
Posted By: TommyGambino

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
I'll be happy to answer all of your questions. But first, how old are you and where are you from?

I only ask because you've been asking some very naive questions since you signed up. And that's okay. It's just that we've had problems with people trolling here lately.

And welcome to the board, Vito smile.


You sound like a pedophile mate lol
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 08:17 PM

lol
Posted By: mldetroit

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/08/14 09:59 PM

Special places like Little Italy disappear all the time...and its depressing.
Posted By: Benedetto

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 12:59 AM

We in SF have our own area of the city called North Beach. Lots of history in this Italian neighborhood. Joe DiMaggio grew up here. My grandfather played ball with him as kids. DiMaggio married Marilyn Monroe at Saints Peter and Paul church.

Believe it or not we had our fare share of wise guys out here. Joe "The Animal" Barboza was shot down on the San Francisco streets in 1976. Jimmy "The Weasel" Fratianno spent time here.

These days, like most old Italian neighborhoods, restaurants cater to the tourists and the folks who live in the area are well to do or young hipsters. My Nonno learned to speak English in Washington square park, my grandparents wedding cake was made at Victoria Pastry 63 years ago. History.
Posted By: F_white

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 01:52 AM

It has happen everywhere but in Chicago its depressing as HELL.
Posted By: bigboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 02:05 PM

I've been to NYC but never to little Italy so it was interesting for me to hear all about how it has changed so much. Buffalo is the same. Once the west side was nearly all Italian and now loaded with Puerto Ricans, Indians, Blacks and I think Arabs. Gone are the Italian stores (Mostly) bakeries and Pizzerias.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By: bigboy
I've been to NYC but never to little Italy so it was interesting for me to hear all about how it has changed so much. Buffalo is the same. Once the west side was nearly all Italian and now loaded with Puerto Ricans, Indians, Blacks and I think Arabs. Gone are the Italian stores (Mostly) bakeries and Pizzerias.

Well, it's funny because the outer borough Italian neighborhoods were replaced by the other poor, yet newer ethnic groups (Albanians and Latinos in the Bronx, Russians and Middle Easterners in Brooklyn and Queens, etc.). And the same holds true for East Harlem (in Manhattan), which is nearly 90 percent Latino today. Yet the downtown Little Italy (Mulberry Street, also in Manhattan) has only gotten richer due to gentrification.

Now don't get me wrong, there are still loads of poor Chinese in Chinatown, and Chinatown has taken over a lot of Little Italy. But the northern part of Little Italy, from Grand Street, all the way up to around Bleecker Street, has only gotten wealthier. The rents down there are insane. Like I posted earlier in the thread, a one bedroom walk-up will run you at least $2500 a month. And there aren't even many hipsters in SoHo yet. Just a lot of Yuppies and foreign born business people.
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 03:40 PM

pizza,

I think it's a matter of tax base and allocation of city and state resources.

Current residents of new Little Italy are going to be singles or couples with no children.(young professionals, hipsters,gay couples)

Residents of the area of upper Manhattan you mentioned and outer boroughs are going to be old school(in the American sense) families with a lot of children and extended families.

The state is taking more in and spending less in new Little Italy....public school class sizes are probably very low in that area for example.
Average income levels have something to do with the trends that neighborhoods take but I think things such as household size play big factor.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets
pizza,

I think it's a matter of tax base and allocation of city and state resources.

Yes, Gets. That plays a very large part in it. It was clearly done by design. It was no accident. The City and State governments knew exactly what they were doing.
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 04:33 PM

Pizza,

nah, I'm not saying it's a plot by the govt. smile

oh and by the way..I REFUSE to use any of the foolish new acronyms for neighborhoods in NewYork

the only Dumbo I know is a cartoon elephant
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets
oh and by the way..I REFUSE to use any of the foolish new acronyms for neighborhoods in NewYork

the only Dumbo I know is a cartoon elephant

What about NoLita?

Sounds like an underage hooker rolleyes.
Posted By: Sal_Luca

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 06:48 PM

Pizza,
I am also very new but not a troll - I am from Memphis and have been to NYC several times and love checking out famous LCN landmarks (Sparks was the very first place I went when I dropped my bags at the hotel). I am somewhat familiar with the general geography of the LES and love walking the streets there every time I visit. My question is this: what woukd a very naive tourist exploring the neighborhood have encountered had they gotten anywhere near the Ravenite in the 80s? I know they would never make it in, but can you speculate what may have been the method of 'deterrence'?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Sal_Luca
Pizza,
I am also very new but not a troll

Welcome aboard, Sal smile.

Originally Posted By: Sal_Luca
My question is this: what woukd a very naive tourist exploring the neighborhood have encountered had they gotten anywhere near the Ravenite in the 80s? I know they would never make it in, but can you speculate what may have been the method of 'deterrence'?

You would have been politely chased away. The first time. Really no other way to put it wink .

And the thing about the Ravenite is, even though it was in Little Italy, and on Mulberry Street, it was just a bit north of the touristy restaurants, up by Prince Street. So if you wandered over there, and you weren't a local, you really stood out.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 06:59 PM

Sal, don't let Pizzaboy fool you... he's a great guy. He would have let you in The Ravenite and bought you a drink! wink
Welcome to the BB.
Posted By: Sal_Luca

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:07 PM

Thank you very much for the warm welcome. The history of LCN has fascinated me since I was 8 yrs old (41 now) and this board is so full of very cool threads. I noticed in the Rare pics section that a lot of those photos on the first few pages are not available (at least from what I can tell). Just in the past month I have bought several vintage pics and would love to be exposed to some I have not seen. Here is one I may buy very soon that I just found today.

http://pixels.com/products/group-of-mobsters-in-the-1920s-left-everett-art-print.html
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
Sal, don't let Pizzaboy fool you... he's a great guy. He would have let you in The Ravenite and bought you a drink! wink
Welcome to the BB.

And you have to post more, Mark. You used to be the Welcome Wagon here. I don't have time to be welcoming guys from down south grin.

Just kidding, Sal. Me and Mark? We go back lol .
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:11 PM

Any mobster with a nick name "Fatty" is okay in my book!
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
Any mobster with a nick name "Fatty" is okay in my book!

They used to call Joe Bonanno Fatty McButterPants. Then he went on Atkins. Lived to be almost 100.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Mark
Sal, don't let Pizzaboy fool you... he's a great guy. He would have let you in The Ravenite and bought you a drink! wink
Welcome to the BB.

And you have to post more, Mark. You used to be the Welcome Wagon here. I don't have time to be welcoming guys from down south grin.

Just kidding, Sal. Me and Mark? We go back lol .

I been "away" for a while but I'm back now.
smile
I'll step back up so you can work on your tan, Pizzaboy!
Sal, me and PB were separated at birth... he stayed in The neighborhood and I got sent to Chicago suburbs! grin
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
he stayed in The neighborhood and I got sent to Chicago suburbs! grin

And he even fucked that up. Now we gotta send him back to the minors. Like Joe Mantegna in "Things Change."
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Mark
Any mobster with a nick name "Fatty" is okay in my book!

They used to call Joe Bonanno Fatty McButterPants. Then he went on Atkins. Lived to be almost 100.

Must have been a rough time for him... back then they didn't wear track suits with elastic waists.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Mark
he stayed in The neighborhood and I got sent to Chicago suburbs! grin

And he even fucked that up. Now we gotta send him back to the minors. Like Joe Mantegna in "Things Change."

lol lol
Posted By: Sal_Luca

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:21 PM

Every time I go to NYC there is a place in the neighborhood called Bicycle Habitat and say hi to the owner. He is a really nice guy who rides his bike from Brooklyn to work every day. The whole neighborhood is very tourist friendly now.
Posted By: TonyG

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: HuronSocialAthletic
Honestly fucking pathetic & disgraceful what is happening to This country, especially in big cultural metropolises like NY, Chi, Boston, SF. Shameful.


The Hill in St Louis is still largely Italian, although few new immigrants. The Hill is the home of Yogi Berra and Joe Garagiola.

I understand that even today when a home in the neighborhood goes up for sale, they just don't sell it you unless you last name ends in a vowel. It was rumored that for years, the St Ambrose parish priests interviewed prospective buyers and would not approve of anyone unless they were Italian.

I usually go for a dinner on The Hill when I go back to visit family. The neighborhood has not changed - perfectly manicured lawns, houses are very well kept, the fire hydrants are painted like Italian flags, the same restaurants and stores remain.....

I like neighborhoods that retain their heritage.

On the other hand, the Irish neighborhood in St Louis, Kerry Patch, is probably one of the worst ghetto's in the city. I drove by the house my grandfather lived in as a kid a few years ago and it looked like a crack house. In 20 years it will probably be re-vitalized and gentrified.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:25 PM

I have heard about The Hill and it sounds like a great place to go. My brother lives in St. Louis and loves going to The Hill.
Posted By: Footreads

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:29 PM

Little Italy and 18 ave in Brooklyn went from Italian to 75 percent or more Chinese.

The feast I never liked it because it was always too crowded for my taste. If you go to that feast put a rubber band around your wallet. So you can tell if someone try's to lift it from your pocket. A lot of pick pockets during the feast.

The area is still safe

East Harlem where I was born was all Italian. Them it became Hispanic when they build the projects. Now it has become yuppie land smile some Spanish guy was complaint that the Hispanics are being pushed out. I told him now you know I felt when the Italians were pushed out.

Want to live near Rao's small studio is 2000 a month.

I think next time I go to east Harlem I am going to go during the day.

I am going to go to St.Anns grammar school. Break in go to the second floor where my kinder garden class was. There was a porch where if you were good you could go out for recess toys were there to play with.

I went the whole year and I never got out on that porch I always did something bad so I never got out there. I have been complaining about that for 69 years. I tell that story to my kids and to my grand kids. I think part of the reason they never let me out there was because the teacher was a fraud I would throw a class mate off that balcony.

The other thing I would do is go over the walking bridge to wards island. We flew kites from that bridge.

Wards island was like the country. You go there they had trees and not tenements.

But what they did have was a nut house smile it was fenced off there was a place where they held the insane there.

I felt bad for them because if it was not for luck I would have been housed in that place. Just before I left Harlem some friends of mine and I went to wards island with wire cutters and made a hole in the fence so they could get out. See we had a sense of humor
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:31 PM

I saw a recent episode of Extra Virgin on Cooking Channel and Debi Mazar took her Tuscany husband to Arthur Avenue in The Bronx. I would love to go there! Lots of great places to mangia! Debi was treated like every other person... no star treatment and no frills. She was home.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
I saw a recent episode of Extra Virgin on Cooking Channel and Debi Mazar took her Tuscany husband to Arthur Avenue in The Bronx. I would love to go there! Lots of great places to mangia! Debi was treated like every other person... no star treatment and no frills. She was home.

I CAN'T STAND Debi Mazar. She's homely, loud and obnoxious. And she's from Queens. Plus, she's married to a Northern Italian. They may as well be fucking French lol.

Hit your Google map, Mark. I grew up on the corner of Hoffman Street and East 187th Street. And today we own a building right off the corner, on Hoffman Street. The neighborhood is like 75 percent mixed Latino now. Even the Albanians are moving to the suburbs. But the stores and restaurants are still Italian, and hopefully always will be.

You ever come here, you call me. Forget all that shit on the Food Channel and Youtube. I'll show you where to eat smile.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 07:53 PM

Lol, never thought she was attractive either, PB. What's with that lisp?! I will definitely be calling you if I ever get up there! Thanks!
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 08:00 PM

PB next time y'all get a hurricane up that way you better show me the good joints! (that will probably never happen again in our lifetime though)
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
Lol, never thought she was attractive either, PB. What's with that lisp?! I will definitely be calling you if I ever get up there! Thanks!


Originally Posted By: dixiemafia
PB next time y'all get a hurricane up that way you better show me the good joints! (that will probably never happen again in our lifetime though)


That'd be a threesome. A local Wop, a Midwestern Wop, and a Hillbilly Wop. We'll get arrested for sure.
Posted By: TonyG

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 08:05 PM

I went to San Gennaro festival in NYC when I was there on business in 2011. Here is a picture on Mulberry.

Attached picture IMG_0537 (320x239).jpg
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: TonyG
I went to San Gennaro festival in NYC when I was there on business in 2011. Here is a picture on Mulberry.

Nice, Tony smile.

Now multiply that times ten blocks to the north. And five blocks each, east and west. And you'll have an idea what that feast looked like thirty years ago wink.
Posted By: NickyEyes1

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 08:12 PM

Yeah TonyG the hill is fantastic. I hate everything about St. Louis except The Hill lol . So many great restaurants and bakeries and has probably looked the same as it did 50 years ago. You'd never think out of all the cities, St. Louis would have the best Little Italy!
Posted By: dixiemafia

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
That'd be a threesome. A local Wop, a Midwestern Wop, and a Hillbilly Wop. We'll get arrested for sure.


Would be worth it if I can get my hands on some good spaghetti wink lol
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
Yeah TonyG the hill is fantastic. I hate everything about St. Louis except The Hill lol . So many great restaurants and bakeries and has probably looked the same as it did 50 years ago. You'd never think out of all the cities, St. Louis would have the best Little Italy!

A bunch of fucking farmers who got lost on their way from Ellis Island to the Lower East Side.

Just kidding!! I can't even type it with a straight face lol lol.
Posted By: Flushing

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/09/14 10:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Footreads
Little Italy and 18 ave in Brooklyn went from Italian to 75 percent or more Chinese.

The feast I never liked it because it was always too crowded for my taste. If you go to that feast put a rubber band around your wallet. So you can tell if someone try's to lift it from your pocket. A lot of pick pockets during the feast.

The area is still safe

East Harlem where I was born was all Italian. Them it became Hispanic when they build the projects. Now it has become yuppie land smile some Spanish guy was complaint that the Hispanics are being pushed out. I told him now you know I felt when the Italians were pushed out.

Want to live near Rao's small studio is 2000 a month.

I think next time I go to east Harlem I am going to go during the day.

I am going to go to St.Anns grammar school. Break in go to the second floor where my kinder garden class was. There was a porch where if you were good you could go out for recess toys were there to play with.

I went the whole year and I never got out on that porch I always did something bad so I never got out there. I have been complaining about that for 69 years. I tell that story to my kids and to my grand kids. I think part of the reason they never let me out there was because the teacher was a fraud I would throw a class mate off that balcony.

The other thing I would do is go over the walking bridge to wards island. We flew kites from that bridge.

Wards island was like the country. You go there they had trees and not tenements.

But what they did have was a nut house smile it was fenced off there was a place where they held the insane there.

I felt bad for them because if it was not for luck I would have been housed in that place. Just before I left Harlem some friends of mine and I went to wards island with wire cutters and made a hole in the fence so they could get out. See we had a sense of humor


I enjoy reading posts like this. I wish someone would write a book about italian harlem. Not necessarily the mob stuff, but about the characters in the neighborhood.
Posted By: Footreads

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 01:37 AM

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbcTVMv4U0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Posted By: Mikey_Sunset

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Benedetto
We in SF have our own area of the city called North Beach. Lots of history in this Italian neighborhood. Joe DiMaggio grew up here. My grandfather played ball with him as kids. DiMaggio married Marilyn Monroe at Saints Peter and Paul church.

Believe it or not we had our fare share of wise guys out here. Joe "The Animal" Barboza was shot down on the San Francisco streets in 1976. Jimmy "The Weasel" Fratianno spent time here.

These days, like most old Italian neighborhoods, restaurants cater to the tourists and the folks who live in the area are well to do or young hipsters. My Nonno learned to speak English in Washington square park, my grandparents wedding cake was made at Victoria Pastry 63 years ago. History.


Benedetto, I missed your post earlier. Yeah North Beach has got a tourist thing going on, has for years as you know. There's still Molinari's and even though they classed up the place the Duggans have done a good job with the re-opened Joes. I loved the one in the TL - it was either there or Johns Grill before shows at the Warfield - hell, Joes was open late so sometimes we'd go AFTER a show. Now they're gonna redo Westlake Joes - I hope they keep the Steak ala Bruno and the Cascade Room. I'm debating on the fair - it would be fun on a nice day but do I really wanna deal with techies and lines to places I can just walk into on Tuesday?
Posted By: Footreads

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 01:57 AM

Here is a you tube on a movie that was made but not release. They wanted people to invest. The reason I did not is because I would not made any money from it.


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K_3X3uU8iI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 02:11 AM

There's no money in documentaries like that. They're strictly a labor of love. Nice voice over, though. And they're spot-on about the Second Avenue projects. That was the beginning of the end.

Also, there are more Italians in that video that what's left in the neighborhood. The newer video is strictly footage of the feast. Still nice to see, though. Especially the Church. My parents were married at Mount Carmel in 1958. I popped out a year later smile .

And they breezed by my grandparents old building. Number 325. There's a men's store under the fire escape now---lol.
Posted By: LuanKuci

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 10:32 AM

dyker heights has a proper amount of italians still

but in order to get to experience a majority of them (not just few pockets) you got to move out of the city to the nearby counties

and staten island but that's a given


@ PB

tuscans aren't considered northerns, more like central italians
by those who still care for these sort of things obviously…since the 50s, with the mass immigration south > north, it's as easy to run into someone with a southern last name up there as in the mezzogiorno.

and be careful with the french/northern italian jokes shhh always, but especially around italians during the world cup! lol


@ TonyG

interesting that you typed few new immigrants…you meant italians?
New ones?
you don't say...
Posted By: carmela

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy

I CAN'T STAND Debi Mazar. She's homely, loud and obnoxious. And she's from Queens. Plus, she's married to a Northern Italian. They may as well be fucking French lol.


whistle
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 10:47 AM

Originally Posted By: LuanKuci
@ PB

tuscans aren't considered northerns, more like central italians
by those who still care for these sort of things obviously…since the 50s, with the mass immigration south > north, it's as easy to run into someone with a southern last name up there as in the mezzogiorno.

and be careful with the french/northern italian jokes shhh always, but especially around italians during the world cup! lol

It was a joke, LK. That's all. My main point was that Debi Mazar is a loud mouthed twat. And she ain't Italian, northern or otherwise. Just a white trash pig from Jamaica, Queens who married up. And just for the record, Tuscany is still north or Rome. And it just rubs me fucking raw when Americans go on and on about Milan and other tourist traps to the north, like the south is an afterthought.

That's what bugged me about Maria Laurino's book ("Were You Always an Italian?"). It was well written, but when she finally made it to Italy it was to the north, not where her family is from in the south. Not to mention the fact that she's obviously filled with self-hate because she's dark skinned. The part about being ashamed while visiting Brooklyn made me sick (especially considering that she's not from the area). And in typical self-hating Yuppie fashion, she married a man who wasn't of Italian descent. I have an aunt like that, and I hate her guts lol.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: carmela
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy

I CAN'T STAND Debi Mazar. She's homely, loud and obnoxious. And she's from Queens. Plus, she's married to a Northern Italian. They may as well be fucking French lol.


whistle

Just for the record, Carm. I don't like Mazar, but I love Queens chicks in general (especially those from Ridgewood grin ).
Posted By: baldo

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 11:56 AM


That's what bugged me about Maria Laurino's book ("Were You Always an Italian?"). It was well written, but when she finally made it to Italy it was to the north, not where her family is from in the south. Not to mention the fact that she's obviously filled with self-hate because she's dark skinned. The part about being ashamed while visiting Brooklyn made me sick (especially considering that she's not from the area). And in typical self-hating Yuppie fashion, she married a man who wasn't of Italian descent. I have an aunt like that, and I hate her guts lol. [/quote]

Sounds like my sister...been ashamed to be an Italian her whole life...disgusting.
Posted By: NickyEyes1

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 12:13 PM

So when did Little Italy start going downhill? It seems like it happened really fast because around the early 90s it still looked the same but it obviously changed by 2000. Did it really happen that fast?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 12:18 PM

Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
So when did Little Italy start going downhill? It seems like it happened really fast because around the early 90s it still looked the same but it obviously changed by 2000. Did it really happen that fast?

Well, I wouldn't call it downhill, Nicky. If you can pay $2500 a month for a studio, you're probably doing okay. But I get what you're saying smile .

And yes, while it wasn't overnight, the downtown Little Italy (Mulberry Street) changed at a MUCH faster rate than the outer borough Italian neighborhoods. But then again, the outer borough neighborhoods don't have too many real estate agents making a million dollars a year. And that ain't a coincidence wink.
Posted By: Footreads

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 12:53 PM

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enXGEn0gRNI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is the Giglio feast from last year. Beautiful it had just come in from Italy.

Listen to our commentary
Posted By: cheech

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 01:18 PM

always liked debi going back to the late 80's...a good photographer I like named ricky powell shot her, always thought she was the epitome of queens (like i would know living in utopian connecticut rolleyes) ...i like her show but that husband is soooo fucking annoying...deeebrraaaaa in that voice...ugh

but ya, i like debi, always have
Posted By: TonyG

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 02:33 PM

Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
Yeah TonyG the hill is fantastic. I hate everything about St. Louis except The Hill lol . So many great restaurants and bakeries and has probably looked the same as it did 50 years ago. You'd never think out of all the cities, St. Louis would have the best Little Italy!


I don't know if its the best Little Italy, but it certainly has not changed. They have a good, strong neighborhood association that has been vigilant about retaining its character and traditions. Several restaurants still have Italian language (and English) menus. We get mail orders from Vivianno's (an old, and very good Italian grocery http://www.shopviviano.com/) since we can find the good, authentic stuff here in Texas.

LOL Nicky, why do you hate everything about St Lou except the Hill? There are other parts of the city that are fantastic - cental west end, the park, soulard, etc.
Posted By: TonyG

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: LuanKuci

@ TonyG

interesting that you typed few new immigrants…you meant italians?
New ones?
you don't say...
Yup, I mean new, Italian immigrants. In recent years, St Lou has had a bunch of Bosnian immigrants (of all places). I think I read somewhere the Bosnians now number over 150,000 and are becoming a political force in the city.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: TonyG
LOL Nicky, why do you hate everything about St Lou except the Hill? There are other parts of the city that are fantastic - cental west end, the park, soulard, etc.

Geez, Tony. An Irish guy in Texas? That's two culinary strikes against you before you even get up to bat tongue grin.

You know I'm kidding lol.
Posted By: Benedetto

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Mikey_Sunset
Originally Posted By: Benedetto
We in SF have our own area of the city called North Beach. Lots of history in this Italian neighborhood. Joe DiMaggio grew up here. My grandfather played ball with him as kids. DiMaggio married Marilyn Monroe at Saints Peter and Paul church.

Believe it or not we had our fare share of wise guys out here. Joe "The Animal" Barboza was shot down on the San Francisco streets in 1976. Jimmy "The Weasel" Fratianno spent time here.

These days, like most old Italian neighborhoods, restaurants cater to the tourists and the folks who live in the area are well to do or young hipsters. My Nonno learned to speak English in Washington square park, my grandparents wedding cake was made at Victoria Pastry 63 years ago. History.


Benedetto, I missed your post earlier. Yeah North Beach has got a tourist thing going on, has for years as you know. There's still Molinari's and even though they classed up the place the Duggans have done a good job with the re-opened Joes. I loved the one in the TL - it was either there or Johns Grill before shows at the Warfield - hell, Joes was open late so sometimes we'd go AFTER a show. Now they're gonna redo Westlake Joes - I hope they keep the Steak ala Bruno and the Cascade Room. I'm debating on the fair - it would be fun on a nice day but do I really wanna deal with techies and lines to places I can just walk into on Tuesday?


Hey Mikey, nice to see someone from my area on here. Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy strolling along Columbus Ave. Molinari's is great. The clam pizza at Tony's Pizza Napoletana is always a homerun. I also like what they did with Joe's right across the street. Giordano Brothers does a nice take on the famous Primanti Brothers sandwich. The owners of the place are originally from Pittsburgh and are huge Steelers fans. Lots of little dive bars I enjoy popping into but when Friday and Saturday night comes around, I stay away from this neighborhood the majority of the time. The streets are packed with drunk 20 something year olds. If anyone plans to visit, you will get a much more enjoyable experience during the day and if you want to have an evening dinner I really suggest you do it on a weekday.
Posted By: TonyG

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 03:02 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: TonyG
LOL Nicky, why do you hate everything about St Lou except the Hill? There are other parts of the city that are fantastic - cental west end, the park, soulard, etc.

Geez, Tony. An Irish guy in Texas? That's two culinary strikes against you before you even get up to bat tongue grin.

You know I'm kidding lol.

Hahaha!! All good PB. In my opinion, the Italians taught the world the fine art of cuisine. The Irish taught the world how to make alcohol and consume it. I think we can both agree the 2 go very well together.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 03:03 PM

Originally Posted By: TonyG
In my opinion, the Italians taught the world the fine art of cuisine. The Irish taught the world how to make alcohol and consume it. I think we can both agree the 2 go very well together.

Can't live without either one of them grin .
Posted By: NickyEyes1

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: TonyG
Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
Yeah TonyG the hill is fantastic. I hate everything about St. Louis except The Hill lol . So many great restaurants and bakeries and has probably looked the same as it did 50 years ago. You'd never think out of all the cities, St. Louis would have the best Little Italy!


I don't know if its the best Little Italy, but it certainly has not changed. They have a good, strong neighborhood association that has been vigilant about retaining its character and traditions. Several restaurants still have Italian language (and English) menus. We get mail orders from Vivianno's (an old, and very good Italian grocery http://www.shopviviano.com/) since we can find the good, authentic stuff here in Texas.

LOL Nicky, why do you hate everything about St Lou except the Hill? There are other parts of the city that are fantastic - cental west end, the park, soulard, etc.

lol Yeah I agree, there's a couple other nice spots, like the area around the zoo (that might be one of the places you mentioned). But since I'm from Chicago, I hate all of the St Louis sports teams and because of that, I hate the city too lol
Posted By: TonyG

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 03:27 PM

Now I understand Nicky. Not that you need a reminder, but...

21 EVENTS THAT HAVE OCCURRED SINCE THE CHICAGO CUBS WON THEIR LAST WORLD SERIES

Both radio and TV were invented
Fourteen teams were added to Major League Baseball
George Burns celebrated his 10th, 20th, 30th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 70th, 80th, 90th and 100th birthdays
Haley's comet passed Earth, twice
Harry Caray was born, and died
The NBA, NHL and NFL were formed, and Chicago teams won championships in each league
The US fought in World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War, Persian Gulf War, Iraq War, Afghanistan War
Man landed on the moon
Sixteen US presidents were elected
Eleven amendments added to the Constitution
Prohibition was created and repealed
The Titanic was built, set sail, sank, and was re discovered
Wrigley Field was built and becomes the oldest park in the National League
Flag poles were erected on Wrigley Field roof to hold all of the team's future World Series pennants, which have since rusted and been taken down
A combination of 40 Summer and Winter Olympics have been held
Thirteen baseball players have won the Triple Crown
Swing music, bell-bottoms, and disco came in style, went out of style and came back in style
The Chicago White Sox, Cleveland Indians, Boston Red Sox and Florida Marlins have all won the World Series; what next, the Nationals?!?
The Cubs played almost 15,000 regular-season games, losing the majority of them
Alaska, Arizona, Hawaii, Oklahoma and New Mexico were admitted to the Union
The St Louis Cardinals have been to the World Series 19 times, winning 11 championships.
Posted By: Benedetto

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 03:33 PM

Ouch! lol I have a buddy who is a Cubs fan. You know what he says before the first game of the season? "well, there's always next year." lol
Posted By: NickyEyes1

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 03:39 PM

lol no offense taken! I'm a Sox fan!
Posted By: SonnyBlackstein

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 03:40 PM

Originally Posted By: TonyG
Alaska, Arizona, Hawaii, Oklahoma and New Mexico were admitted to the Union


Youch. Kinda, says it all.

@ TonyG /me chuckles

(Though Technically LN is a Sox fan)
Posted By: jonnynonos

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 05:36 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: TonyG
In my opinion, the Italians taught the world the fine art of cuisine. The Irish taught the world how to make alcohol and consume it. I think we can both agree the 2 go very well together.

Can't live without either one of them grin .


Do you still live in the city PB?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: jonnynonos
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: TonyG
In my opinion, the Italians taught the world the fine art of cuisine. The Irish taught the world how to make alcohol and consume it. I think we can both agree the 2 go very well together.

Can't live without either one of them grin .


Do you still live in the city PB?

Yes, we live in the Throggs Neck/Country Club section of the Bronx. But today we also live in Delray Beach, Florida for three or four months a year, depending on the weather, family, etc.
Posted By: Mikey_Sunset

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 09:26 PM

Weeknights are the time to go, I'll second that. The area was better when the Stone, the Mab, On Broadway etc... were open. Not as many out of towners just looking to get as drunk as possible and start fights after being thrown out of every Deja-Vu joint.
I still like having a drink at Gino & Carlos, the Columbus, Specs and Tony Niks. Then some Golden Boy to cap off the night!
Posted By: Benedetto

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/11/14 10:10 PM

Yes! Gino & Carlos is my go to also. Sometimes Grant & Green, Columbus Café is another spot I like too. Planning on going to the North Beach Festival this weekend? Tons of jerk offs but I still succeed in having a good time.



Posted By: Mikey_Sunset

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/12/14 01:30 AM

I might go by there Sunday if I've got time. I'm supposed to work this weekend. However I will not miss this...

http://www.sfiacfesta.com/
Posted By: LuanKuci

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/12/14 03:30 AM

I got the joke PB
I was just replying...with poor humor...
I guess that I better catch up with Larry David

Even though tuscany is indeed north of rome it's still considered central italy.
it's basically the northernmost region of central italy, along with marche.

Yes, any American that goes to Milan is in for a treat: overpriced bogus and plenty of friendly gypsies.

I wrote all about it in another thread.

Don't you even get me started with Laurino...or I'm gonna get myself banned

What a self-hating, radical chic, closed minded, racist, elitist, lazy researcher she is

If she would have gone into therapy instead of writing "books" she'd be better off

The fact that people in the academia freakin love her shows how biased and sectarian self-proclaimed "incellectuals" actually are.
Posted By: Benedetto

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/12/14 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Mikey_Sunset
I might go by there Sunday if I've got time. I'm supposed to work this weekend. However I will not miss this...

http://www.sfiacfesta.com/


Marking that one on my calendar. We'll be there.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/12/14 09:59 AM

Originally Posted By: LuanKuci
I got the joke PB
I was just replying...with poor humor...
I guess that I better catch up with Larry David

Even though tuscany is indeed north of rome it's still considered central italy.
it's basically the northernmost region of central italy, along with marche.

Yes, any American that goes to Milan is in for a treat: overpriced bogus and plenty of friendly gypsies.

I wrote all about it in another thread.

Don't you even get me started with Laurino...or I'm gonna get myself banned

What a self-hating, radical chic, closed minded, racist, elitist, lazy researcher she is

If she would have gone into therapy instead of writing "books" she'd be better off

The fact that people in the academia freakin love her shows how biased and sectarian self-proclaimed "incellectuals" actually are.

All good, LK smile.
Posted By: ScottD

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/14/14 02:46 PM

Originally Posted By: HuronSocialAthletic
Honestly fucking pathetic & disgraceful what is happening to This country, especially in big cultural metropolises like NY, Chi, Boston, SF. Shameful.


Huh? The reason they are cultural metropolises is because things DO change. You need the churn and influx and out migration.

NY is an alpha world city, with 42 major skyscraper projects ongoing or in design right now, the highest population ever, and one of the lowest crime rates per capita of any US City. How is that worse than 1990 New York? Because there are less Italians? Blame the people that moved away then.

It can't stay the same forever. If a city does not change it becomes Detroit. That is disgraceful.
Posted By: Moe_Tilden

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/14/14 03:33 PM

Posted By: Footreads

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/18/14 08:24 AM


Little Italy is on the brink of extinction

By Kate Briquelet

March 30, 2014 | 2:52am

Little Italy is on the brink of extinction
A piece of New York City history is bidding arrivederci.

Rising rents and changing demographics have driven Little Italy to the verge of extinction. Once a teeming neighborhood stretching 50 square blocks, it now barely covers three blocks of Mulberry Street — and even that strip is under threat.

“You can’t rebuild Little Italy,” said Robert Ianniello Jr., owner of the famed Umbertos Clam House. “If we go away, it will never be here again. You can’t build an Olive Garden and say it’s Little Italy.”

Ianniello is battling a rent increase from a new landlord who bought the building last month for $17.5 million. He recently got a rent bill for $34,000 a month — more than double what he used to pay.

“It’s a landlord problem,” said Ianniello, who heads the Little Italy Merchants Association. “They think this is Fifth Avenue.”

Eight eateries have shut down in the past year.

Il Fornaio, once owned by Gambino mobster Joseph Corrao, remains empty.

Friends gather to talk at the Caffe Bella Napoli on Mulberry Street, Little Italy, the Italian community of New York City in 1944.
Giovanna’s shuttered after a six-year run when the landlord doubled the rent. Ads show the owner wants $32,000 monthly for the space.

A block south, at Positano Ristorante, a legal notice in the window shows the city marshal took over the storefront on behalf of the landlord in January.

At S.P.Q.R., the monthly rent jumped to more than $50,000 and the eatery was forced to close. The space currently is home to a year-round Christmas shop.

One Mulberry Street apartment building is converting the ground floor into retail, while a hotel is being constructed on Grand Street next to the now-shuttered Florio’s restaurant.

But it’s not just development that’s pressuring Little Italy. Cultural conflicts are also cutting it down to size.

In 2011, Nolita boutiques demanded the city remove three blocks from the famous Feast of San Gennaro to keep revelers’ “greasy hands” from besmirching their $300 frocks.
The shopkeepers’ request had festival boosters hotter than a plate of baked ziti. More than 100 protesters packed a community board meeting.

“We had Italians from all over writing to the mayor,” said John Fratta, whose grandfather co-founded the annual festival in 1926. “It’s something that’s very sacred . . . You’ll see venom if you try to change it or stop it.”

Italian immigration surged in the late 19th century. By the early 1900s, nearly 10,000 Italians lived in the neighborhood, which once spanned roughly from Lafayette Street to the Bowery and from Kenmare to Canal streets.

Many residents flocked to the outer boroughs after World War II, and an influx of Chinese immigrants moved in, blurring the lines between Chinatown and Little Italy.

Today Little Italy’s heart is three blocks of Mulberry Street between Canal and Broome streets.

Emelise Aleandri, an author on Italian history and theater, said that the neighborhood remains a cultural touchstone for Italian Americans across the country — and that it would be a huge loss if it disappeared.

“Right now, there is just enough of a population to keep up traditions,” Aleandri explained. “But it’s going to be more difficult to keep the area Italian if the merchants and businesses leave.”
Posted By: Footreads

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/18/14 08:32 AM

My wife just told me this our old church Mt.Carmel on a Hun 14 in east Harlem has masses in Polish now. What is this world comming to?
Posted By: 116th_street

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/18/14 11:33 AM

I sent you a pm, footreads:)
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/18/14 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Footreads
My wife just told me this our old church Mt.Carmel on a Hun 14 in east Harlem has masses in Polish now. What is this world comming to?

There are Spanish masses at Mount Carmel, but I'm not aware of the Polish Masses. And there aren't any Italian Masses left, either: http://www.parishesonline.com/scripts/hostedsites/org.asp?ID=10134.

I've told you before that's where my parents got married back in 1958. My Dad is still on the Giglio committee, so we still get over there every so often. It's still a beautiful church smile.
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/18/14 01:40 PM

@Foot

Is that a parody article?

"greasy hands"? No way is that a quote.

also, said it before and will say it again...if writers don't get the F out of here with these new era nicknames....Nolita?

do these names come from real estate brokers?

====================================================

I just assumed that the real estate in L.I. was still in Italian hands
Posted By: cheech

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/19/14 03:10 PM

where the fuck is Nolita? below soho and above chinatown?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/19/14 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By: cheech
where the fuck is Nolita? below soho and above chinatown?

North of Little Italy, south of Greenwich Village. But so is SoHo for that matter rolleyes.

Like I said, Nolita sounds like an underage hooker.
Posted By: Yankees1951

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/19/14 03:17 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: cheech
where the fuck is Nolita? below soho and above chinatown?

North of Little Italy, south of Greenwich Village. But so is SoHo for that matter rolleyes.

Like I said, Nolita sounds like an underage hooker.


smile
Posted By: NNY78

Re: Little italy pre 90s..... - 06/19/14 04:39 PM

New York’s Little Italy, Littler by the Year

In 1950, nearly half of the more than 10,000 New Yorkers living in the heart of Little Italy identified as Italian-American. The narrow streets teemed with children and resonated with melodic exchanges in Italian among the one in five residents born in Italy and their second- and third-generation neighbors.

Of the nearly 4,400 foreign-born residents of the heart of Little Italy who were counted in 2009, 89 percent were born in Asia.

By 2000, the census found that the Italian-American population had dwindled to 6 percent. Only 44 were Italian-born, compared with 2,149 a half-century earlier.

A census survey released in December determined that the proportion of Italian-Americans among the 8,600 residents in the same two-dozen-square-block area of Lower Manhattan had shrunk to about 5 percent.

And, incredibly, the census could not find a single resident who had been born in Italy.

Little Italy is becoming Littler Italy. The encroachment that began decades ago as Chinatown bulged north, SoHo expanded from the west, and other tracts were rebranded more fashionably as NoLIta (for north of Little Italy) and NoHo seems almost complete.

The Little Italy that was once the heart of Italian-American life in the city exists mostly as a nostalgic memory or in the minds of tourists who still make it a must-see on their New York itinerary.

The only streets that really feel like they belong to Little Italy, Mulberry and Grand, are still crammed with venerable Italian restaurants and shops. But Chinese-language advertisements for reflexology spas pepper the sidewalk, a poster announces the Lunar New Year celebration, and a “for rent” sign hangs on a new seven-story condominium building at 182 Mulberry.

The Gambino crime family’s old Ravenite social club at 247 Mulberry is now a shoe and handbag boutique. As recently as 2005, Vincent Gigante, the 77-year-old boss of the Genovese crime family, roamed the neighborhood in a bathrobe and slippers feigning mental illness to avoid prosecution. Last month, more than 100 reputed members of mob families were charged with federal crimes; none lived in Little Italy.

Sambuca’s Café, at 105 Mulberry Street, is listed by Yelp, the food-oriented Web site, as being in Chinatown — a particularly humiliating geographic transgression because it is owned by the president of the Little Italy Merchants Association.

Last year, the National Park Service designated a Chinatown and Little Italy Historic District with no geographic distinction between the neighborhoods. The two neighborhoods have begun organizing a Marco Polo Day and an East Meets West Christmas Parade.

City Hall will soon further erase the boundaries.

Following the lead of three local community boards, the City Planning Commission is expected in March to approve the creation of a Chinatown Business Improvement District, which would engulf all but about two square blocks of a haven that once spanned almost 50 square blocks and had the largest concentration of Italian immigrants in the United States.

“It’s really all Chinatown now,” said John A. Zaccaro Sr., owner of the Little Italy real estate company, founded by his father in 1935.

Even the Feast of San Gennaro, which still draws giant crowds to Mulberry Street, may be abbreviated in size this year at the behest of inconvenienced NoLIta merchants.

The number of residents of Italian descent in the neighborhood has been declining since the 1960s, as immigration from Italy ebbed and Italian-Americans prospered and moved to other parts of the city and to the suburbs.

“When the Italians made money they moved to Queens and New Jersey, they sold to the Chinese, who are now selling to the Vietnamese and Malaysians,” said Ernest Lepore, 46, who, with his brother and mother, owns Ferrara, an espresso and pastry shop his family opened 119 years ago.

Still, about 30 Italian-American babies born in the neighborhood are baptized at the Church of the Most Precious Blood on Baxter Street every year. And some residents cling to a neighborhood that is rich in history and culture.

Natalie Diaz’s children are the fifth generation of a family that arrived on Ellis Island from Naples in 1916. She still lives in the same gray five-story building on Mulberry Street above Il Piccolo Bufalo where she grew up. Ms. Diaz, who is 34, runs a group for parents of twins and triplets. Her husband’s parents were Irish and Puerto Rican, and he works as a manager at her family’s restaurant in the neighborhood, La Mela.

“Little by little, everyone wants a little more, more space, and moves away,” Ms. Diaz said. “There are some families, mostly from my mom’s generation, who have held out. To be honest, though, I feel a really strong sense of tradition. I owe it to my ancestors. I feel that everything my family worked for from the time they got off the boat is here.”

Of the 8,600 residents counted by the census’s American Community Survey in the heart of Little Italy in 2009, nearly 4,400 were foreign-born. Of those, 89 percent were born in Asia. In 2009, a Korean immigrant won a tenor competition sponsored by the Little Italy Merchants Association. That same year, a Chinese immigrant, Margaret S. Chin, was elected to represent the district in the City Council.

Ms. Chin played a key role in galvanizing diverse factions to create the business improvement district, which reaches north from Chinatown with two arms that flank Mulberry Street and arc toward it from the middle of two parallel streets, Baxter and Mott.

“We opted out” of the district, said Ralph Tramontana, president of the Little Italy merchants’ group and owner of Sambuca’s Café. “We didn’t think there was a need for it, because through the merchants’ association we already do what a business improvement district does.”

“I told Chinatown businesses,” said David Louie, who helped push for the district, “ ‘You should look at Little Italy and follow their example — at 8:30 in the morning you can see them scrubbing down the sidewalks.’ ”

Cleanliness, quaintness and low crime have broadened the neighborhood’s appeal, which has driven up rents. Rent-controlled apartments are still home to some Italian-Americans, Mr. Zaccaro said, but market-rate residences cost vast sums more. An 800-square-foot one-bedroom in a six-story renovated building at 145 Mulberry was advertised recently for $4,200 a month. The owners of a two-bedroom co-op on Grand Street are asking $1.5 million.

Paolucci’s, a popular restaurant that opened on Mulberry in 1947, moved to Staten Island after the owner’s rent was raised in 2005 to $20,000 a month from $3,500, he said.

Still, other Little Italy landmarks have not only survived, but appear to be thriving thanks mostly to tourists and to what the author Nicholas Pileggi described decades ago as suburban “Saturday Italians” — the “prospering overweight sons of leaner immigrant fathers.”

Di Palo’s, an Italian specialty food store at 200 Grand Street, opened for business in 1903, a decade after the Alleva dairy at 188 Grand, which advertises itself as the nation’s oldest Italian cheese store and which, like Ferrara, opened in 1892. Fifth-generation family members work in all three stores, and all three also sell their products online.

In 1990, Lou Di Palo said, his ailing father handed the next generation the keys.

“We decided we’re going to take our business and go backwards — focus the way our grandparents and great-grandparents ran their operation: family-oriented, hands-on customer relations,” he said. “We’re going to cut your piece of cheese and slice your prosciutto. We’re still a neighborhood store, but we took the initiative to make our shop a destination.”

“It went from an immigrant store to an Italian-American store focused on authentic products of Italy,” Mr. Di Palo explained. “We don’t expect our customers to come on a daily basis. A great customer we’ll see once a week, a very good customer we’ll see once a month. People used to say to me, ‘You’re still here!’ I said, ‘As long as you keep coming, I’ll be here.’ ”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/nyregion/22littleitaly.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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