Is idolizing or admiring mobsters warranted?

I'm curious to know the opinion of others on this topic. Is Hollywood biased, for example? I mean, does movies generally portray the mobsters as heroes in some kind a way rather than portraying the damage the Mafia has done to American sociaty? Are they considered as some kind of benefactors in the neighborhoods today? I can understand the fascination and the curiosity we share, surrounding the Mafia but is idolizing or admiring it really warranted? If so, why? This could be a good topic to discuss, but please be civil.

Never really watched the Sopranos outside of 2-3 episodes so I can't say whether that show portrayed Tony as a hero...but I think any complex depiction of a gangster makes him harder to label with one word or one way.

I think American Cosa Nostra, like any ethnic crime organization..rises by first victimizing members of their OWN community so I'm not sure that there are many or any of the Italian American members here who idolize the mob.

The fascination is due to a few things.
1) think about a boss, a bully, or some sort of an injustice done to you or your family and you felt helpless or the police had their hands tied for whatever reason. The mafia would take care if it asap.
Here's a story. A guy works in a factory and his boss is after his wife so he is going out of his way to make life hard for the guy; making his work environment miserable. So,the poor guy goes to a the social club around the corner and explains his situation to a guy he knows from the neighborhood. The guy listens to his problem and tells him not to worry about it. A few days later as his jerk off boss is walking to his car, 2 mean looking guys confront him and give him a beating and scare the shit out of the guy. They then tell him if he ever even looks at their friend again, he will be eating all his future meals by way of a straw.
Problem solved !!!!
A nice guy puts a pool in his yard and spends about 75k on it. After he puts his pool in, his neighbor in back of him says his nice, new renovation is on his property by almost a foot. The neighbor goes to the town and asks that all that hard work and all that hard earned money get thrown away because he said its his property and he wants all the fencing and even the pool moved and he is taking it to court. Now this guy has a rather large yard and coming about 6 inches on his property isnt going to effect his quality if life; it was purely an accident but now he is taking advantage and threatening to sue the poor bastard. Distraught and stressed, he mentions his issue to a friend who knows a guy. 2 mean guys approach the jerk off while he is in his garage doing some painting. Without a word, the guy gets pummeled and warned if he doesnt drop the law suit and doesnt stop going to the town, his head is going be chopped off and shoved straight up his ass.

How bout this. Your daughter is at college a d some scumbag kid snaps a picture of her while she is passed out at a party and its on his facebook page. The kid wont take it down and the cops say there is nothing they could do. The only thing they suggest is that your daughter stay away from the guy and perhaps try to take him to court. The father contacts a cousin who has a few connected friends and tells his story. Fathers themselves, the connected guys can surely empathize with the guy so they take care of it. As the fa***t college kid leaves his dorm, he is cracked a few times with a black jack and thrown into a car which is driven to the back of a shopping mall. As the kid is basically shitting in his pants, the one guy gives his hair a nice jerk and shoves a gun in his mouth. He then proceeds to tell the guy if every single picture of that girl is'nt deleted from his phone and taken off facebook within 4 hours, he's going to be sent back to his parents in a suitcase missing his arms.
Thats why America loves the mob.

Belmont

in those fictional scenarios.....are we to believe that the wise guy helps these regular guys out of the kindness of his heart?and that after the fact, the regular guys just walk away?

Kindness of their hearts? Sometimes. Thats kind of how the mafia started in italy, a police force for the poor.
If a guy who gets a favor owns a business, maybe a few guys get things for free ect....thats also why a lot of mob guys get support from the public.

lol @ those scenarios. what, no follow-up about the favors now owed and what they may consist of?

I've noticed that some people on here do idolize OC or claim that things were better decades ago or many years ago when la famiglia was more visible or public, say it's a shame about how things are not like they were decades ago, that some people involved in OC are sexy (!!!?), and that people involved in OC deserve respect.

And what if you're on the flip side of that home improvement?

True story: A guy buys the house across the street from the _________ on Schurz Avenue, right on the water, here in Throggs Neck. There are beautiful hundred year old trees on the property. One day, _____ decides he wants a better view of the water and "asks" the guy to cut the trees down. He politely declines. Awhile later, the guy and his family go on vacation, come home and find these beautiful trees cut down to the ground. Less than a year later, the guy is so fucking scared he sells the house and moves away.

My point is, you can cherry pick these scenarios all day long. But unless you've lived with these people all your life, and you know firsthand what they expect of you when they do you a favor, you really aren't in a position to give an objective answer.

Don Corleone doing favors on his daughter's wedding day is a fantasy. In America, anyway. I admit, in Sicily, what with the history, things are a little different.

The studios know what makes money and what doesn't make money.

Movies about crime make money.

Was their every a movie about the mob where the lead was able to walk a way with money, and not get caught? I can't remember one.

I wish there were I like the bad guys winning.

I was hoping the character in Breaking Bad would beat cancer. Take his 80 million and get out, and open his car wash keep his family and live happily ever after.

These scenario's are'nt made up .. The last one involving facebook was changed a bit because facebook wasnt around 15 years ago.
The second story regarding the pool: the guy owned some sort if paving company. Im sure he paved a few driveways on the house.
The neighbor who threatened to take the guy to court was a real scumbag. He was a retired guy who was bored and tried acting important. He even called the town on another neighbor because he wasnt sure if the neighbor obtained proper permits to have his grandmother living in the basement apartment . The guy took a beating ; he fuckin deserved it. No offense.

@ Belmont

Yeah. And then for taking vigilante justice and doing a "favour" for you, they start coming to your business offering their "protection" services and start extorting you as reciprocation.

More than likely, Belmont, is a scenario where mobsters kill civilians (Kubecka, Barstow), kill family members (Chiodo's sister), watch their children become junkies (D'Arco), encourage their children to become criminals instead of fulfilling their potential (Persico, Gravano, Gotti), kill an architect because they don't want to pay him (Casso), drive a jeweler to suicide after trying to break into his business (seen this in a documentary on the Philly family; perhaps someone can rejig my memory) or the countless circumstances where they have killed people because of unbridled greed.

Most of them are cowards who will turn state evidence at the slightest hint of a jail sentence anyway and people who hide behind guns and posse beatings.

Neither are these:



Again, the point is, you can cherry pick scenarios all day long. But whatever "good" they do is balanced out by the bad (like the "wrong" Nicky Guido getting killed on Christmas Day at twenty something years old).

I don't know about America, but in Italy there are plenty of mafia movies (especially those made before the 2000s) where the "good guys" lose and the mafia/corrupt politicians/secret services win. For example, in most Damiano Damiani's movies there is a clear and realistic message that single people can't beat the corrupt system.

As for idolizing mobsters in movies, I think that in many cases it's due to misunderstandings by the viewers of the author's intentions. For example, the scene in the Godfather where Michael "renounces" his sins in a church and at the same time his hitmen whack everybody, I think this is a powerful scene which clearly shows the hypocrisy and ruthlessness of the mafia and how Michael betrayed his original ideals. Nevertheless, many people consider Michael as a "cool" character to be sympathized with, probably even admire how he managed to wipe out all rivals at once.
I personally like watching mafia movies, especially realistic ones, as illustrations for certain historical periods, but that doesn't mean I like the protagonists from a human point of view; in the Godfather I wished everyone to fry on the electric chair.

Dominick Ragucci is the one that slays me. The terror that that kid must have felt in his last moments on Earth. Poor guy...

That's a myth created by Hollyweird and the media. They do not do that in Sicily, and a leader of OC does not do that.

Belmont

Scenarios seem made up and based on scene in the Godfather film.

But the book was 10 times better than the film. What the film didn't or couldn't show, was expertly written in the book.

The same mortician gets a call...it's from Haugen...telling him that the Don needs a favor.Nothing more is said to him. The poor mortician worries himself sick imagining what crime or killing that the Don wants him to help cover up..and he regrets ever asking for the Don's assistance.

While he's waiting for the Don to show up.....he almost has a breakdown.

That's what I said. It's a fantasy.

What I meant by things being different in Sicily is that with the mafia there being so ancient, that it's far more ingrained into the culture than it is here. It's far more an accepted way of life over there than it's ever been over here.

OK, now I understand what you mean. Yes it has been there, and like that for close to 800+ years.

There was that kid the tangle wood boys stabbed to death and their dads tried to cover up, shamrock bar killings, the nun that got killed during the perano hit. I think its all good having them in your neighbourhood and maybe they do keep things safe but once things do go wrong i don't see them protecting the neighbourhood then. Another example is when the lucheses were running that crack cocaine ring in bensonhurst.

Who is or was Dominick Ragucci?

A 19 year old kid, with no mob ties, shot to death by Roy DeMeo during a car chase.

But they only kill each other, right?

Anyone who idolized a mob guy deserves what he gets. You don't idolize those guys. They prey on mob fkers.

I remember Spider's sister (or was it mother?) called in to Howard Stern's show when Henry Hill was a guest and confronted him. Hill felt bad about what happened but he did try and justify it by saying that Spider was a Mob groupie.

It really was pretty unsettling listening to Howard Stern guffaw and crack jokes while a grieving woman is having a breakdown live on air.

Belmont, even I know that those gangsters are not going to just go beat up the guy's boss out of the goodness of their hearts. The mafia only wants power, money, and respect. 99% of the time it will cost you something, say the guy's brother owns a gun store or something, it will cost him something in the end. Once they get into your personal life and find out what you own or where you come from they are going for the jugular.

Just like I read in the Family Secrets book, Calabrese Sr. after finding out Junior stole from him and used it to start a restaurant that was making money Senior supposedly busted it out anyways to make the quick buck instead of raking it legit money. That is their mindset.

I'm not Philly expert but it was Sal Testa and maybe Leonetti I forget but I'm pretty certain Sal Testa was there. I think he jeweler was actually Enrico Riccobene, Harry the Hunchback's nephew. But that was more about the wars between the Scarfo faction and the Riccobene's than it was Testa and crew getting into his business.

Idolizing anyone outside of your own family is pretty retarded and never warranted.

Hairyknuckles, Great topic!

I think some members of the older Italian generations born in America in the 10's, 20's and 30's see the mafia as a protector of sorts. I have no doubt this was not the case but some folks think that way. The older members of my family that grew up during that time that I have talked to over the years say that the mafia kept the neighborhoods safe and minimized the effects of discrimination against the Italians. Now what they failed to realize or mention was this was their reality because my Grandpa was a Black Hander and they were protected but that most Italians in the neighborhood were victimized by the Mafia back then, if you weren't in the mafia you were exploited by them. The old saying goes you can't graft a new idea onto a closed mind and despite all evidence to the contrary some people believe that the mafia did some good and you know what on the rare occasion way back when I sure they did..... as long as there something in it for them

Agreed. This question is not Mafia related, but what about dying for somebody else but for your own family? Is dying for your country (in a war overseas) warranted?



Excellent post and I agree with you. But back in the day, in some cases perhaps, the Italian-Americans only had the Mafia to turn to for help, because they were the ones with the connections. What about today? Does the younger generations of Italian-Americans think that turning to the Mafia is an option?

How did Irish Americans do so well for themselves? They didn't have any criminal organisations looking out for them? Similar profile to the Italians too. Not as privileged as the German or English immigrants. Come to think of it, how did the Jews do so well for themselves also?

Irish, Blacks, Jews and Italians too should all be able to make something for themselves without resorting to crime.

And idolising your family is the ideal but plenty of people grow up without positive role models in their own families.

Friends, teachers, lecturers, Joe Di Maggio, MLK, JFK, Nelson Mandela.. these people can all be positive figures to learn from.

The Jews and the Irish were right next to the Italians when OC got started in New York. But all three of these groups had a desire for upward mobility.

They didn't cry about discrimination. They sacrificed to educate their children. And today their grandchildren and great grandchildren are reaping the benefits of that assimilation and upward mobility.

Hairy,

I can't imagine in this day and age that anyone would turn to the mafia for help outside of desperate people who are in some kind of jackpot that they can't solve through legal means and also the wannabes who hang around. It appears that the Media at least in the last decade has done a better job of not glamorizing these bad guys. Say what you will about the Sopranos but it was not a flattering portrayal of the present day Mafia.

Once you've seen Tony Soprano pick up the newspaper in his underwear, it's hard to accept Don Corleone in his tuxedo .

Not to mention seeing Gigi die while taking a shit .

I think that was the main factor in all of it starting. Back in those days it was much harder to "get ahead" in life than it is now. Everybody was poor back then and to get ahead meant really living. I don't agree with what they done, but you have to admire how they decided their family would no longer struggle in life and they went out and took it.

Kind of like one of the opening lines in The Departed:

I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me. Years ago we had the church. That was only a way of saying - we had each other. The Knights of Columbus were real head-breakers; true guineas. They took over their piece of the city. Twenty years after an Irishman couldn't get a fucking job, we had the presidency. May he rest in peace. That's what the ni**ers don't realize. If I got one thing against the black chappies, it's this - no one gives it to you. You have to take it.

I only added it all above to get it all, none of the above is of my own words. Just talking about the mentality of gangsters.

I don't know, HK. But if you know me, you know I'm not that deep. Speaking for myself, I'm pretty cut and dry and I'd die (willingly) for my husband or my kids only.

I wish more independent filmmakers would make mafia films, rather than leaving it to the big studios....

Guys, im not defending the mafia. The OP simply asked why mobsters are idolized and i explained why. They like living vicariously through guys with power. Im talking american lcn, not Italy's. Italian lcn is more like a damn terrorist group.

All true,,but we both know that in Boston, several cities in NJ, and NY, and along the eastern seaboard that there are communities of people descended from those SAME immigrants who are part of the working poor, on public assistance, or in criminal system.

The implication of what you wrote is that..Jews,Irish and Italians did things that Blacks didn't or don't do.


It doesn't run on the six o clock news but there are and have been successful African, African American, and Caribbean Americans who have been doing what EVERY other group in this country have done. The old money Black families are mostly down south , are 5-6 generations Fisk and Morehouse grads and made their fortunes in the
jim crow era South that makes the hardships that ethnic white immigrants experienced seem like Disneyland.


The "Didn't cry about discrimination" line is really misinformed...and whether it's clear or not.....the Civil Rights legislation passed benefited all non wasp male Americans as it made it illegal to discriminate based on race, religion, gender.etc.

Look up up the college and commercial opportunities that opened up to ethnic whites as a result of civil rights legislation being passed.


So those people "crying about discrimination" somehow ended up benefitting others.



No beef at all, I've just heard this stance before from people and always make these points. I'm an immigrant myself and have had to challenge White,Black,Latino,etc immigrants when this topic comes up and they say the same things.

Well, you're partially correct. There WAS an implication to what I wrote. I won't deny that. But it wasn't about Blacks.

It was about the newer immigrants who come here and refuse to learn the language, do nothing but complain about discrimination, and curse this country all while living off the government tit.

If that makes me a cranky old White guy, so be it. But the original implication certainly wasn't against Blacks. Blacks were in this country 200 years before my grandparents were, and I haven't lost sight of that.

No….It makes you a RACIST!

All I am going to say is this, nets. Applied to the blacks- it's not allegedly, its not maybe. It's fact. It's bore out by the empirical evidence- whether crime and murder rates, single motherhood, education levels, median income. Non immigrant blacks significantly under-perform every group out there. Immigrant blacks tend to very well. Which suggests culture. Which is racist. Anyways.

Now in explaining this issue you can come back and say it was racism (which i find unlikely, considering Nigerian immigrants outperform every single group out there including some asians and all whites), or slavery, or drug laws, or whatever the popular theory floating around sociology departments today. But don't deny the basic facts or act somehow shocked about what everyone knows to be the state of affairs.

pizza

What you wrote doesn't make you a cranky white guy whether it was how you intended it what I read into it. Either way you are just being honest.

I don't have my head buried in the sand. I see what my people are doing to EACH other. What you wrote could have easily been about Blacks because as the years go by a greater % of us are just falling into self imposed permanent underclass and the effects of that are felt by ALL Black people. I shouldn't be stopped and frisked BUT...I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that people who look like me are behind a lot of street crime.

Just going on the record, pizza, I'm not a Black apologist...reality is reality. I speak honestly and respect others who do too.
=============

And while I'm not a professional.....I do semi manage some property that my family owns...and it's hard not to notice and acknowledge patterns along ethnic lines of tenants.People ARE individuals but.....hard not to notice patterns......I feel you on that....

I think what you're saying is, sometimes the stereotypes are true. And I agree. Sometimes they are true.

Some Italians are in the Mafia. Some Irish people are drunks. Some Jews are cheap. Some Blacks are on welfare. And on and on and on.

But the key is to try to look past those small percentages of people who insist on living down to the stereotype, and to judge each person as an individual.

nicky

I wrote this in the Donald Sterling thread and it applies to you




Every post even remotely related to Black criminals....or Blacks fucking up .....seems to attract you like honey to a bee.
Those are your favorite types of Blacks, huh?

Entire site devoted to the criminal underworld, yet when ANYTHING involving Black street guys, or Blacks on lower end of socio economic ladder comes up, you pull out your sociology hat.

quick look at your posts support what I'm saying.

give it a rest.....we get it...you're fascinated with Black pathology.....makes you feel better about your great life.

A argument rises or falls on its merits, not its source. I could be satan for all it matters, it doesn't change the factual nature of what i said. Either vaguely relate your claims to verifiable evidence or this isn't a conversation worth having.

But thanks for the junior high school psychoanalyzing. It's about a C paper in about 7th grade. Is this what passes of intellectual discourse in your group of friends? Attack the source, attempt new age psychoanalyzing, and just completely ignore anything approaching reality?

nicky,

the actual original question was along the likes of irish, jews, and italians being compared?


I don't know what your ethnic background is but it would have made sense for this thread if you pulled up "empirical data, which doesn't lie" comparing education rates, and other factors among these three groups.

But like I said, comparing yourself to lower socio economic level and criminal Blacks is a more favorable comparison.


Why don't you compare the data for American jews with whatever ethnic group you belong to and tell us what the findings "prove" ?

Remember, "the data doesn't lie."

Again, you seem to lack the ability to separate the merits of the argument from personal attack. This is therefore not a conversation worth having.

I'm just going to leave this article about immigration, culture and performance here from the ultra conservative, right wing NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

I hope the "cognitive dissonance" (i love psychology), plays itself out before you go back to pretending not to understand on average differences (just because A group on average differs from B group by 5% in trait C doesn't mean a member of group A will have more trait C then a member of group B, in fact many individuals in group B will have more trait C than members of group A).

Seeing Nicky and Get go at it is like watching an old Tyson in his prime fight. Get, Ill give you a hint on which fighter you are: not Tyson.

Belmont, have you ever considered that the asshole in your situation could be connected. For example, what if the neighbor in the pool situation was a mobster. It is feasible that he could tell the guy putting the pool in that he would have to pay him extortion money or he would have the pool ripped up.

Also, what if the pool guy put the pool on knowingly and without asking permisission hoping that he could push his neighbor around? I don't think the mobster would mind helping the asshole as long as the price was right.

Don't admire or idolize people who you don't personally know. Just because you read about a mobster donating to the orphanage, doesn't mean he actually did it. The same about reading that the mobster is a maniac killer.

In the end of the way, I also hate the behavior "all criminals are scum and should be shot". You never know what led this man's life to what he is doing.

Just out of curiosity, why did you remove you-know-who's name, PB? The guy's family's problems with their neighbors are fairly well known and it's not like he has an upstanding reputation one has to be careful not to besmirch.

I know, and the name is still up in a similar post I made a few years ago. I guess I just feel bad for his ex because she's sending three sons to prison this summer. And actually, one of them never made bail, so he's already at the MCC pending sentence.

So call me an old softie .

Sure It is.

These are individuals that live outside of law & order. They cheat the system & in many cases live better lives because of it. Money & power without Having to go through years of monotonous schooling & sucking the cocks of authoritative figures.

These are admirable things to any clock punching average Joe.

The means whereby they attain their money and power are hardly something to admire. Only someone morally bankrupt would claim there is anything about these guys to idolize.

Nah, anyone that has endured the excruciatingly dull monotony of the American education system & worked a 9-5 shit kicking desk job can find something to admire about a mob guy. It's only natural.

You mean the exact same way all of Gotti's underlings sucked his cock? And Persico? And Gigante?

There is something very emasculating about scores of 6 ft. "tough" men in their twenties, thirties and forties being terrified of a 5 ft. 5, 69 year old man like Carmine Galante.

That to me is every bit as pathetic as someone working a desk job and being disillusioned with their boss.

You look at guys like Louis Daidone and Alphonse Persico. They were intelligent enough to go to college but chose the easy way. Look where it got them. Rotting in prison.

Look at Anthony Casso. Nobody brave enough to say boo to him. Then as soon as he goes to prison, the "tough guys" crawl out of the woodwork to start extorting his elderly wife.

Such men of honour... such admiring traits.

Simply no but there always a bunch that admire criminals.

That's actually a very fair point. What's especially sickening is watching middle-aged men drooling all over the sons and other young family members of these guys.

And I'm seriously talking about watching a fifty year old bookmaker fawn all over a 19 year old kid because he's the son of a local wiseguy, hoping the dopey kid will "put a good word in for him."

And all all that ego stroking does is turn the kid into a bigger punk than he already is. It's the reason it's so hard for some of these kids to avoid getting caught up in the life. It's a vicious cycle.

All right, you guys are going to think I'm nuts for saying this but I'll post it anyway.

There is one thing about the mob that I do kind of admire, and it's the apparent lack of ageism. It's not like much of the rest of society, in which people are considered over the hill when they turn 40. Seems like in the mob, no one cares if a 90 year old is still actively pursuing their career. In fact, one gets the impression that the mob is one of the few sectors of society in which the elderly are taken seriously as actual human beings.

Of course, I could way off base with that, but it's the impression I get. They seem to lack the creepy youth fixation you run into everywhere else. Of course that doesn't excuse all the horrible shit they do.

You've obviously never seen Sonny Franzese get his diaper changed .

^ Are you trying to imply that you have seen that?

It was a joke .

i can admire them for their qualities of being able to not only operate, but thrive in a one of the most stressful and cutthroat environments out there while withholding moral judgement. their ability to constantly play chess against the feds and other fellow wiseguys and come out on top. it's the same way one can admire hitler or stalin and that all entailed their rise to power and retention of it, without necessarily agreeing with the consequences of their rise to power.

are they vicious sociopaths who would strangle their mother for a nickle? yes. would i want them as next door neighbors? no. but they're highly competent and intelligent in ways most people could never hope to be, and this is what i admire. or at least find interesting.

Against the feds??? Don't the majority of lower ranking guys play WITH the feds?

I wonder how she feels about him bringing their sons into the life.