becoming "made"

Not sure if this question was already asked, couldn't find it. I saw a mob show on the discovery channel that said you have to kill someone for the family before being made. Is this still true or does it depend what family?

That's old school fact/lore....

Today it's about money, doing your time around members and who you know...

Nahh this is def a myth. If your bringing in alot of money to the family, that should be good enough to get made. Michael Franzes springs to mind (his pops rep didnt hurt). He was making a rediculous amount of money for the Colombos and according to him, he has never killed anyone. In fact he even turned down a contract given to him from his boss, I think Dabell (acting for snake at the time) to clip Larry Champagne for banging M. Franzeses sister (Sonny's daughter) , a Im sure there are other examples, that one just comes to mind. Im sure it varies from family to family also. Please correct me if im wrong. Hope that was helpful!

Jerry Angiulo in Boston was made without killing, just because he made money.

I turned down soilder and capo at the age of 17 it was 1 and 3 on a contract

I just couldnt do it

What show was that stealth44?

I´d say that loyalty and a natural tendency to show respect for the superiors within the Family are two very important characteristics with the proposed ones to have. Kicking up and sharing profits is a sign of loyalty. Killing for the Family is also a sign of loyalty. Another important thing is of course the level of intelligence. A "retard" will never be admitted into the Mafia, no matter how good a killer he is.

Al D'Arco explained it best - while it doesn't hurt if a guy has killed for the family, the main thing is a guy being willing to kill for the family. That's what they ask of the inductee in the ceremony. And, as George Freselone said, if a guy is a good earner the family doesn't care if he's ever seen a gun. But D'Arco said they all know the call could come one day to participate in a murder.

What everyone else said. I am not too up on my NYC CN knowledge, but I know in DEAL WITH THE DEVIL, it was stated that Vic Orena was made solely on his ability to earn and that he never killed anyone. I don't know the veracity of that claim though.

I'm sure that there are plenty of made men with an aversion to violence. Especially if you came up in a Catholic household. I think most people have that inherently, unless you came up hard. Killing someone isn't easy. It's something you have to live with for the rest of your life, with consequences that may be spiritual in nature. Some people develop a thirst for it, which may or may not have been there in the first place, and those are the guys you are reading about. No one is writing books about the "gentle extortionist" or the "benevolent bookie."

But didn't Orena order his share of murders during the Colombo war? I mean, would Cutolo ever have acted without asking him first?

Or do you mean, he didn't murder anyone BEFORE being made?

At least half the made guys in the history of the American mob never pulled the trigger. In today's mob it's probably less than a quarter.

Ivy's right, though. The willingness has to be there. But that willingness meant a lot more in the past. You get made today and you can basically pay lip service to that question and never have to worry about getting called on it.

I honestly don't think Orena ordered anyone hit. As far as DWtD is concerned Scarpa was fomenting the war by hitting whoever he could, making look like Orena was had battle plans. I do believe on Scarpa's death bed he admitted that Orena killed no one and that a lame brain Federal Judge dismissed Scarpa's word as another ploy… Orena's kids claim that they NEVER even kept fire arms in the house until all that shit went down, and even then, the guns they did have were all 12 g. that they had for hunting.

DWtD even puts forth that Scarpa even was behind the "hit" that Little Linda got in the middle of. How many times in history does a van full of hitters miss hitting anyone entirely??

Orena became an ordained minister in prison.

He was once a made man in America's most dangerous crime family. A hired killer. A stone cold gangster. They said he could not be rehabilitated.

*Close up of priest collar and several tawdry gold chains* *Gunshots*

Until he became a priest.

Now one man faces a battle between good and evil. The sins of his past and the redemption of tomorrow.

Orena: Mafia Priest

in theaters September 28.

But some people on Persico's side were hit too. Who ordered it then, did the Orena capos act on their own?

By the way, here is one thing I never understood even though I asked many people and even emailed some researchers:

About the Ocera killing, allegedly ordered by Orena and carried out by Leale and Amato with some others' help: on one hand, Scarpa's son says his father admitted to having killed Ocera, on the other hand, there is a tape where Bonfiglio complains about not being rewarded by Amato for hiding the body, therefore supporting the Orena/Amato involvement version. On the other hand again, I don't know whether this tape was heard on trial or maybe Bonfiglio knew he was taped and said bullshit on purpose? There are also said to be contradictions between Maffattore and Bonfiglio's testimonies. What do you think?

I don't know, but to me it sounds unlikely a boss could be completely clean of any murders during his whole career. Even Jerry Angiulo ordered some hits.

I honestly don't know that much about NYC. I'm from Chicago, and can only speculate as to what I've read(OBVIOUSLY) Haha. I was just trying to toss my two pennies in. It seems like you have a decent handle on the Scarpa story… When it comes to OC you can never really know the truth. Everyone is trying to protect their own interests. Maybe Greg told Jr. he killed Ocera and Orena's sons are lying to help get the old man out of jail. If Bonfiglio is on a wiretap/tape bitching about not getting paid for hiding the body, I'd have to say that maybe Orena DID order it. MAYBE Amato wanted it done and knew Vic wouldn't authorize it… MAYBE Amato was working with Greg to move Vic out of the way. It's sooooooo hard to say.

Maybe Greg had Amato hit Ocera and Bonfiglio thought that Orena ordered it and rolled with Amato. I don't think ANYONE would ever incriminate themselves willfully on an FBI wiretap. Maybe Greg didn't pull the trigger, but essentially had Ocera killed which is why he told Jr. that he killed him. DEEP. Haha.

Fuck Moe_Tilden makes me chuckle

It was bound to happen .

LMAO

Gold Moe.

You've the Gangsterbb funniest as f*** stipes as far as this poster is concerned.

While we agree on the part that (especially today) there are many made members who never pulled the trigger, are there many members who really were never involved in murders in any way, not even as one who helped planning it, or provided the guns, or was the getaway driver, or at least was informed about it and didn't do anything to prevent it?

Jerry Angiulo is probably the most known example of a mafioso who was made because of money making skills, not violence, yet he was involved in at least 3 hits (Rocco DiSeglio, Joe Barboza, Angelo Patrizzi).

Pasquale "Pat the Cat" Spriito wasn't killed precisely for the fact he didn't want to kill and tried to compensate it with making more money, but nevertheless did participate in Dominick DeVito's murder.

Vito Cascio Ferro said before dying in prison said he never killed anyone, EXCEPT for Joe Petrosino.

Vincent Falcone who was killed by Scarfo: from most descriptions he seems more like just a crooked businessman that a killer, yet he helped Leonetti to kill Louis DeMarco.

Only Frank D'Alfonso, also whacked by Scarfo seems not to have killed anyone, but was he a made member?

There have been made priests, doctors and lawyers who never personally killed anyone, may or may not have given orders, but certainly aided and/or abetted.

Agreed. You certainly don't have to kill to be made...like everything lease, it's about the individual circumstances....how much you earn for the family and who u know in the family. Just like soldiers in a war, most never see combat, but are in support roles. The same holds true for LCN...most members aren't involved in the muscle business....that is usually handed out to specific crews who specialize in muscle/murder.

One of the nice things about being a Mafia Don is that you get to make the rules for your family. One of the Don's prerogatives is qualifications for being made, and that may or may not include having killed someone. As Ivy said, probably no man would be made whom the Don didn't think would kill on orders, but that's a practical matter, not written in any "rulebook" (which doesn't exist anyway).

If memory serves, Fat Vinny Teresa, in his book, "My Life in the Mafia," said that Patriarca didn't have a ceremony for made men, complete with the finger-pricking, burning saint's card, kisses on cheeks, etc.--the stuff of legend that most people think is universal in Mafia families. "They just called you to the Office and told you that you were in," he said.

When they pricked Fat Vinny Teresa's finger, ragu came out instead of blood.

ba-dum ching!

Teresa was also a big fat liar (literally!) who damaged his credibility when he testified against Meyer Lansky. He claimed he was the Number 3 guy in the New England crime family. Right. So what he said about how Patriarca making people has no credibility. We know for certain his son, Ray Patriarca Jr., DID have a traditional ceremony since the whole thing was recorded.

I don't disbelieve everything Teresa wrote about in his books. I think the prison info is probably pretty accurate since his stories about Carmine Galante ring true to his character and they weren't self-serving for Teresa. But everything Teresa said has be weighed by a scale (no pun intended) how self-serving his statements were.

Another practical matter: the most important thing for a Don is how much money the people under him bring in. Associates and made men bring in money, and to that extent, it doesn't matter a whole lot if the good earner is made or not. Jimmy Burke could never be made because he was Irish, yet he functioned as a crew chief under Paul Vario because he was a good earner. It didn't matter to Vario, or to Burke, for that matter, whether Burke was made or not.

Decades ago, the Don could count on the loyalty of a man he made, and on the made man's respecting of omerta. Now, no one is reliable, made or not. But, some guys would give their left coglione to be made, so the Don can play them--choose who's willing sacrifice more, take greater chances, turn over more money...

Capo at 17, wow you must have been good..

Ha!

Mostly you needed to be involved in a hit in some way. For example gotti didnt personally kill mcbratney, ralph galione did but he was present and assisted

killing someone used to be A good indication A person couldnt become A Ci. Because the government wouldnt let murders walk.

Thing about earners; If you are an earner, but not feared, ( think someone like Dibernardo, or even Costello vs Genovese or Castellano vs Dellacroce, or how Casso ran roughshod over all those long time earners, corleonesi vs the Palermo drug dealers, countless examples) you are VERY vulnerable. I would say you don't have to kill someone to get made, but if you are a gangster and want power in the streets, you gotta be able to back up a ferocious rep.... If you want to hold onto what you got..The money without the power is like, It's one of the things I liked in Bonnanos book, where he described money as a by product of power. What enables them to exist is the fact that the guns will come out, which enables them to make money, the other way around doesn't work long term....

The whole point of being made is youre untouchable.

Being made means the rep of the family is behind you. Not just your own.

Was thinking more of a made guys relationship with other mobsters, and gangsters in general...