Defunct Families- Who was the strongest?

Out of all the mafia families that have been decimated by RICO and age & attrition, who do you think were the strongest in terms of influence in their respected geographic territories and why? Not based on the popularity of each mafia boss, but their true power and influence?

Defunct families include: Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Northeastern Pennsylvania, Rochester, St. Louis, Dallas, Denver, San Jose, San Francisco, Tampa, New Orleans, Los Angeles, Rockford or Des Moines?

I would prob say kansas just for the money they were making in the Las Vegas casinos , that was the mobs golden age and they were in the thick of it . As for the LA family I can't believe nobody has really took advantage of things to a full extent out there

New Orleans

I am not disagreeing with you at all, but I am playing the devil's advocate...Cleveland was knee deep in the casino skim as well plus Maishe Rockman had Bill & Jackie Presser (both from Cleveland) in his pocket. Bill Presser was regarded as one of the most powerful Teamster figures in history. Plus, Angelo Lonardo at that time was regarded as one of the most powerful mafia figures in the country. If I'm not mistaken, Milwaukee and Frankie Bal were part of the skim too.

There isn't a right or wrong answer which makes this fun to hear the points of view on each of these defunct families.

I don't know about the family as a whole but Russell Bufalino was one of the most powerful bosses not in New York or Chicago.

Russ was certainly one of the power players.

Tampa aswel , they had one of the most powerful bosses in the country in santo trafficante

Some of the families are still not totally defunct , Cleveland ( Russell papalardo ) Kansas ( John sciortino ) Pittsburgh and millwaukee still have small but active families

Before I can answer this question what decade are we talking about ??the 50s or the 80s
Because depending on the decade the strength of families such as Cleveland and new orleans or Pittsburgh in the 90s, depending on the time frame it varies wildly.

Marcello ran the New Orleans mob for over thirty years.He pretty much avoided any major jail time,generated tons of revenue,and had vast legitimate investments as well.He had a long standing policy of banning outside Mafiosi from even entering his area,and nobody dared to defy him.

As far as Pittsburgh goes,the Family is non-existent. There is still gambling,labor racketeering,some drugs,and other various activity,but we haven't had a Family or any made guys for years. An old made guy (Ciancutti) is about all that's left,and although he still has power and is getting kicked up to,when he is gone the last of the old LaRocca/Genovese era will go with him.

not really sure theres evidence saying theres still an "active family" in Milwaukee, aside from the bogus charts that have been going around over the years. its been about 30 years since the last significant mob case, we've seen more recent activity outta places like new orleans(even though theres nothing left there now), i guess my point is if they were still sizable mob activity in Milwaukee something about it would've come out.

Marcello and Trafficante without a doubt, they were nationally respected and attended the "little Appalachian: meeting held in Queens in 1966.

Plus, they wacked a President

allegedly

No, they are defunct. A few made guys left, but no structure of a family at all. Please stick to topic, appreciate it.

Let's gauge each defunct family in its history, from 1950-Present. Overall strength, reach and influence...not on popularity.

Marcello and Trafficante were certainly powerful and influential individuals but their families were not as strong as, say, the Bufalinos.

There is no proof they whacked a President and if you have truly studied all the evidence in the JFK case, that theory is very far fetched.

The topic is which one of the defunct families that I listed was most powerful and influential over their history.

If you're referring to the Tampa, New Orleans and Bufalino's, they were very comparable in terms of size and respected leaders.

JCB1977 - Check your PM

Probably Kansas City because of the money that flowed into that city's family. They were the secondary recipients of the skim. Cleveland I feel lagged behind KC.

Tampa and New Orleans were relatively small. However, they had leaders who were very powerful, not in terms of family size, but political connections and connections to major leaders in NYC and Chicago. Yet, their power only extended so far due to connections with NYC and Chicago. I suppose the same is true for KC.

The Los Angeles Family was never very powerful. I also don't think their potential was quite big. The major rackets (movies, unions and adult entertainment) in California were dominated by Chicago and New York. The LA Family was more blue collar such as loansharking and bookmaking (of course this occurred in every city, but there were few white collar rackets).

Buffalo due to Bonnano family connections.

Trafficante 2nd.

Marcello 3rd

New Orleans had 90% of the south.
Cleveland had rackets all the way to West Virginia

I believe that Pittsburgh controlled West Virginia. However if you're saying to and not including: We agree.

In regards to the skim, Cleveland was actually with Kansas City. They actually received a higher percentage of the skim due to Maishe Rockman's relationship with Bill Presser, Allan Dorfman and Gus Alex out of Chicago. Rockman was instrumental in getting the Teamster Loan through Presser and Dorfman.

Here's a scenario I always wondered about: Let's take Traficante and Marcello, both prominent figures in their time and both had ties to New York. The fact of the matter is that if NY or Chicago wanted to muscle in to their rackets, they easily could have based on the fact that they had more muscle and clout than Tampa and New Orleans.

In Los Angeles, while they were one of the weaker families, they also controlled the motion picture unions through Anthony Milano, former boss and consigliere in Cleveland who sent both of his sons Carmen & Peter out to L.A. to run the rackets with Frattiano playing a key role.

In regards to the LaRocca Crime Family, their power was far reaching (especially from the 1950's to the late 1990's). They controlled not only the greater Pittsburgh area, but they had all of Western Pennsylvania going to Altoona/Johnstown, parts of Harrisburg, Erie, PA, Jamestown, NY, the entire panhandle of West Virginia and Northeast Ohio in greater Youngstown and the Canton, OH area. After a long war with the Cleveland Crime Family from 1977-1983, Pittsburgh moved into Cleveland territory when the upper echelon in Cleveland went to prison for the Danny Greene murder. Also, remember that it was John LaRocca who made the Valenti brothers and gave them his support to start their own small family in Rochester (in conjunction with Buffalo) as well as Salvatore & Angelo Marino who were made in Pittsburgh and sent out to San Jose to seize control of the west coast operation. LaRocca got a piece of everything in San Jose, Rochester, West Virginia, Northeast Ohio, all of Western Pennsylvania...That's five states of illegal rackets. Obviously, my expertise is in the Youngstown/Pittsburgh/Cleveland area and I'm not saying that Pittsburgh was the strongest, I'm just stating the facts of how far their tentacles reached while under Big John LaRocca and to a degree, his successor, Michael Genovese. Also keep in mind that Gabriel "Kelly" Mannarino, one of the nation's top underworld figures for decades and the LaRocca Family's most active member was partners with Traficante, Marcello and Bufalino in the Sans Souci Hotel & Casino, the Capri Casino and the Nacional Casino in Havana. Mannarino was also tied to the theory of the Kennedy Assassination.

http://triblive.com/mobile/4488473-96/castro-mannarino-cuba


Granted, Marcello, Trafficante, Civella and Bufalino were more well known because of their relationships with prominent New York bosses and Chicago, but Big John LaRocca had long standing ties to Paul Castellano, Tony Accardo, Angelo Bruno, Russell Bufalino and Carlo Gambino. In fact, Castellano was Big John's next door neighbor in Pompano Beach, FL and they spent a lot of time together in the winters.

ya it seems new york stayed out of their territories out of respect for trafficante and marcello, not because of hw much muscle they had,cause it didn't take to long for new york to move in and take advantage in new orleans and florida after their deaths.

I agree that Buffalo was one of the historical power players because of Maggadino's relationship to Joe Bonanno...but that quickly went south in a hurry right after Apalachin.

Very true...Marcello and Costello were tight. Traficante had Tampa, but the rest of Florida was wide open territory and there were plenty of NY and Chicago crews operating down there along with some of the other crime families like Philly. Not taking away anything from Traficante, but he didn't even control the state of Florida, but a relatively smaller area in Tampa.

Cleveland had a piece of Trumbull County, OH near Warren which Pittsburgh quickly seized control. Cleveland in the grand scheme of things had all of Cleveland, Akron and parts of Sandusky. Their control of Youngstown was very minor from 1970 on due to the growth and power of Pittsburgh at that point. However, their main source of income for quite some time was the skim in Vegas because of Lonardo and Rockman.

Also, KC was indeed a power player with full backing from Chicago, which can't be discounted at all. However, after the Vegas skim was exposed, KC lost their clout in a hurry.

Pittsburg was a powerhouse till around the late 1960's when their power was being challenge by New York commission, mainly because of the conflict Pittsburg was having with Cleveland.
The same thing about New Orleans, It's power reached west to Navada, it also had Houston Texas, Dallas Texas was it's own family and not part of New Orleans as many have claimed it was part of New Orleans. Reached north to Arkansas, and southern Missouri which pissed of Kansas City and St. Louis crime families. To the east with Biloxi Mississippi, Mobile Alabama and almost Georgia, but that pissed off Tampa. Both Pittsburg and New Orleans had tremendous power and influences in union's both local and national, as well as city and state officials from coast to coast.

The Commission was finally able to regroup it's self and power after Joe Bonanno left New York and promised to never interfere with LCN business for the rest of his life. This allowed the commission to concentrate on other matter in the country, to where they stopped both Pittsburg and New Orleans crime families influences in the late 1960's.

After that Milwaukee became a powerhouse outside Chicago and New York. It's power and influence reached to Minnesota, northern Michigan, northern Iowa, Manitoba and Ontario Canada. It also had officials and unions from coast to coast till Balistrieri went to prison. It should be noted that other La Cosa Nostra members in other families have claimed that if Balistriere had not gone to prison, that he would have been giving a seat on the Commission.

Great point, but the Pittsburgh-Cleveland conflict/war didn't begin until late 1977 to early 1978. And keep in mind that when Pittsburgh emerged as the uncontested dominant family in that region, they assumed total control of all of Northeast Ohio, in particular, the entire greater Youngstown area and all of Trumbull County, Erie, PA and Jamestown, NY as well as the entire panhandle of West Virginia.

Milwaukee was as strong as any family when Frankie Bal was in power, but once the casino skim ended and Frankie went to prison...they were finished.

San Francisco under Jimmy "The Hat" Lanza can't go unnoticed. Granted, they were small and didn't yield much influence outside their geographic territory, but Lanza ran an empire while in control and had the uncanny ability to funnel much of his illegal proceeds into successful legitimate enterprises. SF was not on a scale like KC, Milwaukee etc., but New Orleans and Tampa wewre similar as their power didn't have long reaching tentacles.

Cleveland fell apart after Scalish died and that goof ball Licavoli took over. Rockman was running the show while Licavoli took all the licks.

Then after the whole Greene war there was literally nothing left in Cleveland, then big Ange flipped and BYE BYE.

Another tidbit about the strength of Cleveland was the Mayfield Road Mob consisting of some of the most powerful gangsters in the country with Tony & Frank Milano overseeing Moe Dalitz, Morris Kleinman, Louis Rothkopf, and Samuel Tucker who organized Buckeye Enterprises through which they operated laundries, casinos, and nightclubs. Both groups profited from the relationship. In 1949 when Dalitz and his partners built the Desert Inn gambling casino in Las Vegas, the Cleveland family protected the casino from shakedowns by other Mafia families and was rewarded with a 25% portion of the unreported casino profits. The income helped support illegal gambling, bookmaking, loan sharking, and labor rackets in northern Ohio.

It always struck me as very odd that Scalish didn't initiate any new blood prior to his death. The guys Licavoli made were incompetent (meaning Joe Iacabacci and RJ Papalardo).

Not sure why guys like Scalish, Marcello and other bosses from smaller crime families stopped making people.

I guess maybe they were satisfied with what they had accomplished and financially as well.

They were old and could care less about where there crime family would end up when they were gone.

Obviously New York stayed out of it if both families did make members after they were gone.

JCB, the Cleveland/Pittsburg war did not start till the late 70's, but both families were having conflicts with each other beginning in the mid 60's.

Lanza was a powerhouse family boss. I did not mention him as, this topic was asking, Defunct Families-who was the strongest? With everything combined, not only the boss, but the other family members and territories it held as well as what they were able to earn.

Lanza was a powerhouse in age what he live to 103 years? LOL.

Totally agree. Although there were certain conflicts in the mid 60's, Lonardo and Mannarino (both underbosses) had a mutual respect for one another and both tried to keep the peace through Pasquale "Patsy" Feruccio, known as the longtime liaison for Pittsburgh/Cleveland. He was from Canton, OH and considered the country's leading video poker expert/innovator.

Buffalo or Detroit



All those families above are defunct. There's no formal structure or consisting ongoing activity. Some members still living doesn't mean the family isn't defunct.

I don't think tge Kansas City mob is defunct , there have been recent charges brought against Vincent civella and a member of the camissano family

There seems to be some mob activity in Kansas City KANSAS CITY, MO—Beth Phillips, United States Attorney for the Western District of Missouri, announced that six defendants were sentenced today, in separate but related cases, for their roles in a $3.5 million illegal gambling business that relied on a Web site with a computer server located in Costa Rica.

Gerlarmo Cammisano, also known as “Jerry,” 57, Vincent F. Civella, 53, Michael C. Sansone, 31, Anthony V. Sansone, 28, and Michael V. Badalucco, 27, all of Kansas City, Mo., and Charles J. Simone, 26, of Liberty, Mo., were sentenced in separate hearings before U.S. District Judge Nanette K. Laughrey.

Cammisano was sentenced to 14 months in federal prison without parole. The court also ordered Cammisano to forfeit $201,137 and two computers to the government. Civella was sentenced to eight months in federal prison without parole and ordered to forfeit $40,000 to the government.

Simone, Anthony Sansone, Michael Sansone and Badalucco were each sentenced to three years of probation. The court also ordered Simone to forfeit $10,000 and a laptop computer to the government and pay a $5,000 fine. Simone’s probation includes four months in a halfway house and four months of home detention. The court also ordered Michael Sansone to forfeit $4,039 and a laptop computer to the government. Michael Sansone’s probation includes six months of home detention. Anthony Sansone must also pay a $5,000 fine. Anthony Sansone and Badalucco’s probation includes three months at a halfway house and three months of home detention.

On April 28, 2010, Cammisano pleaded guilty to leading the illegal gambling operation. Cammisano oversaw the gambling business, which involved the management of nine other defendants (eight bookmakers and one manager/supervisor). The illegal bookmaking business was organized and started by Cammisano and others in March 2006, and resulted in gross wagers of at least $3.5 million.

Civella and Simone each pleaded guilty to conducting an illegal gambling business. Michael Sansone, Anthony Sansone and Badalucco, who were bookmakers in the illegal gambling operation, each pleaded guilty to the charge of transmitting wagering information in interstate or foreign commerce.

Bookmakers provided their bettors with a 1-800 toll-free telephone number and two Web sites. In order to place a wager on a sporting event, the bettor would call the number or access the Web site, then provide their account number and password. Bookmakers used a separate 1-800 toll-free telephone number, or the Web site, to track their bettors’ activities and account balances. Bookmakers paid out or collected cash in person from their bettors, usually on a weekly basis.

Yeah, a gambling bust. Since 2000, there have been gambling busts in in other cities like Pittsburgh and Detroit. But it doesn't mean there's still a formally structured family there that is recognized by the feds. More like the remnants of a defunct family.

Yeah , I think the only properly structured families left , the five families , buffalo, Detroit , New Jersey and possibly Philadelphia and Chicago

They would be the 5 NY families, New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago.

Detroit is arguable at best. I tend to think not.

Buffalo wouldn't be on that list.

I forgot about the patriarcas , I thought the Detroit mob was doing quite well

There are people on these forums who insist on perpetuating that idea but I don't think it's the case. There seems to be disagreement among mob experts regarding Detroit. That alone could justify someone going either way with that family. But the relative lack of cases in recent years, when compared to other remaining families, suggests the family isn't plugging along like many believe (or want to believe). Even if somebody wants to include Detroit on the list of remaining families, it would certainly be last on the list. And the New Jersey family may not be far behind.

The last known case was a Rico one in 2006 , I read recently the Detroit mafia is alive and well and the toccos r relinquishing power and r priming Jackie the kid giaccone for the boss spot

Yeah, the 2006 case was basically your typical mob gambling and loansharking case. It was not nearly as big as the one a decade before, in 1996.

What you read may be the article entitled "Organized Crime in Detroit: Forgotten but not Gone." It was written by author Scott Bernstein who happens to post on another site. He can think and claim what he wants but this is the guy who's Detroit charts have showed up to nearly 60 members in Detroit, when there was only half that at most said to still be living back in 2001. You'll also notice much of that article has to deal with the past. Bottom line, we have seen consistent and ongoing mob cases involving families in New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago. Why not Detroit?


"...though most experts agree that its (the Mafia's) operations are now largely confined to its traditional bases in the Northeast and Chicago."
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704115404576096392318489246

I know very little about the smaller Families outside NY. So I find this thread extremely interesting.

Yeah I agree with what your saying , but in Detroit is it not possible the Detroit mob has stayed under the radar because they have pretty much stuck to traditional mob staples , the administration it's said is pretty much insulated by a 3 man panel pretty much the same as the Genovese family and what the gambino family have recently adopted , I've spoke to scot burnstein a few times on twitter regarding the Detroit mob , he says the numbers have been diminished and r nowhere near 60 , perhaps half that but they r still very much active

I appreciate all of your enthusiasm on the topic and we could all argue all day about Detroit, Buffalo, KC...but let's focus on the original topic.

Ivy League, I've always respected your opinion and overall knowledge on LCN nationwide and I agree about Detroit...but I'm sure out of the former families I listed, you will provide a well thought out, plausible case for the strongest defunct family.

Domwoods, Ivy League is 100% spot on in regards to remnants of now defunct families. My thread is specific to who the Federal Government considers defunct.

Feruccio was pulling out his hair when ever those two families started bickering, especially over Youngstown, OH.

I did not include Buffalo, NY, Detroit, MI, or Kansas City, MO cause I do not consider those families defunct just yet, but Kansas city is on its way as I believe one of its members died this year, making the numbers of made men in that family drop from 23 to 22. Of the 22 remaining, 4 are retired, 4 are in prison, and 2 more are planning on retiring in the near future, which with bring the family down to having only 12 active members soon in Kansas City.

I have heard Buffalo has 40 to 50 made men. I don't believe that. I would put them as having around 30 made men, with only about two thirds still active in the family.

Detroit is the same for me as well.

For which of the defunct families was strongest, I will say Pittsburg as LaRocca did sit on the commission in the 1950's, and the family held territories such as JCB has stated above.

If we include Buffalo, Detroit, and Kansas City, then I will say that Buffalo hands down was the most strongest of the defunct families ever.

Is this topic about defuct families or families we think are defunct lets get back to the original topic.

Up to Henry

I think it's futile for people to come up with their own definitions of what is considered a viable family. That simply leads to people arguing over every family that has a single member still breathing. I tend to go with those families the feds recognize - the 5 NY families, New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and maybe Detroit.

If people want to include Detroit on the list of families still viable, then I would say Buffalo is the answer to your original question since that family seems to be no longer recognized by the feds.

If you don't want me to include Buffalo either, but only look at those families you specifically listed, there really isn't one that stands out among the others. There are some that obviously wouldn't be in the running - Denver, San Francisco, San Jose. I wouldn't include Rochester, Rockford, and certainly not Des Moines either. And not even Milwaukee, St. Louis, or Los Angeles.

So, by process of elimination that leaves Pittsburgh, NE Pennsylvania, Cleveland, Kansas City, New Orleans, and Tampa. I think a good argument could be made for any of these.

Please stop with your misenformation campaign
The FBI clearly says the Detroit family is viable
I quote the head of the FBI organized crime unit
"they are still a very viable family, they are cloaking themselves in legitatment business , now more than ever, but im not saying there doing legitament business"-Lou Fischetti(FBI organized crime unit

Keith corbett federal prosecutor in detroit in 2009
Theres no reason to beleive there's been a sedation in there activities that have generated income for them over the last 100 years"

I'll quote FBI.gov
"the LCN is most active in the the new York metropolitan area,Parts of new jersey , philadelphia,Detroit, Chicago and new England. It has members in other major cities and is involved in international crime"

But to the actually defunct families in the late 80s it would have been Pittsburgh ,
In the golden age of the mid 50s It would be between Cleveland, KC,Pittsburgh, Wilkes barre and new Orleans. Because of the size of the family being about 50 members and the wide and varied interests that they had not just in Cleveland but Akron , Trumball and Youngstown, Ohio. They owned the Desert Inn in Las Vegas with Kleinman and Dalitz and they were a major player in the teamsters not just locally but nationally through William presser and because of this the Cleveland LCN Family was the strongest family In that Golden Age of the mid 50s

My misinformation campaign? You're the guy who claims the Outfit has pull with President Obama through their union connections.

Anyway, I've repeatedly said there seems to be disagreement among experts regarding the viability of the Detroit family. I've listed quotes before that didn't include Detroit on the list, which you of course ignore. Since there is disagreement, one would be justified in going either way. What makes me lean towards those who wouldn't include Detroit is the relative lack of mob cases there for over a decade now. And I don't accept any of the lame, feeble excuses people have made to explain away this fact. Nor do I accept Detroit charts showing inflated membership posted online.

And with all due respect to Fischetti and Corbett, even more than what officials say, I value what they do. They can say a family is still going strong but if that doesn't result much in them actually bringing forth ongoing cases, one can't help but question things. Especially if that continues over an extended period of time.

Pittsburgh, Northeastern Pennsylvania, and Rockford are still very much alive, Milwaukeee and Tampa are on life support but still active, there never were a Des Moines (Chicago crew) or a Dallas (a New Orleans crew)family, and Rochester never actually functioned as a family in spite of their attempt to seperate from Buffalo.
I would say KC and Tampa would have been neck and neck at the peak of their power

I have little or no knowledge of Eastern Pennsylvania. However I have some knowledge of Pittsburgh. That being said: "Pittsburgh is still very much alive". That would be a big surprise!

How long did the ABC Wars last when you were protecting your investments ? How did you just walk away? My friends uncle tried to walk away from the Colombo's but they wouldn't let them because of his shy operation. The pressure of mob life got to him he drank himself to death.

Even Wikipedia considers the Buffalino family dead and gone! "Very much alive" is a huge stretch considering that 99% of the made guys in that fam are "very much dead".

I wasnt so much protecting my "investments", I was very comfortable eaerning and kicking up to people I had known since I was a kid, and I would be fucked with a chainsaw before I would kick up to mutts like Nappi and Bretti or some other coke addicted NYC importfrom the Columbos. I have family in the Scranton/Pittston family as well, which made for some interesting weddings and funerals back then. My involvement began around 1978 and eneded when I got out of Prison in the mid 90s after doing 14 months.(I was lucky, it was a totally botched case) I was able to walk away becuse I was faceing RICO charges, and I rolled over on NO ONE. Dont get me wrong, I dabbled in some things after that and I still keep my associations, but no one has come to me looking for a weekly envelope in about 20 years

I'll answer the NE PA and Pittsburg questions in a single post. The problem with the media reports and the internet is that waht you see are "snapshots". someassume that since you read an account from 2010 that declare a family "dead" that 1. They know what they are talking about, and 2. That those who have been in line for years just "go away"...they don't.
Such is the case with both Pittsburgh and Scranton

JCB, regardless of everyone's opinion on him, is pretty much recognized around here as the authority on the PA families (sans Philly) and he will be the first to tell you that Pitt and the Bufalinos, with the exception of a handful of octogenarians, are virtually non-existent.

Pitt, Scranton and Rockford are defunct...let's not go down this road, there is no structure

I've researched Pittsburgh for over a decade for several authors, you tell me the hierarchy.

JCB , I know the alleged boss is Thomas ciancutti but I agree they r the remnants of wot is left of the crime family , what books have u researched for regarding the Pittsburgh mob ??? I wouldn't mind reading about some of the smaller families ??

The hierarchy is the same as it has been for years except with the "official boss we all know, and a de-facto boss, Bobby Iannellibeing the one who matters. Last I knew first hand, as of mid 2012 there are 3 capos with a membership of soldiers that number about 18, and a couple dozen associates
...you being the self annointed authority, if something has changed I would be interested in hearing

Southeastern Massachusetts Pitt, Scranton and Rockford are defunct...let's not go down this road, there is no structure

You are in the simplest terms..wrong, I know this becuase for one thing, I just had drinks with some of the "structure" in Rockford over the weekend. If you are ever in the area, stop by Cappy's for some ribs, or the Saint Ambrogio society for the fish fry, both are a treat, and you can se the "structure" with your own eyes

I remember a "handful of octogenarians" is how the FBI described their "breaking" of the Genovese family several years back...ummm...how does it look today?

and to think that all this time i've been misled into thinking it was just an old man who spends most of his days at the dog track, shame on me! lets contrast the info that we've been presented: jcb, who has spent plenty of time regarding pittsburg has stated numerous times they have one made guy left who is still paid some gambling tribute.on the other hand, a "connected" guy who seemingly has inroads with numerous "families" claims they have 3 capos, 18 soldiers, and dozens of associates!

ARM, my only question for you is can you count to potato?

Who is Bobby Iannelli brainiac?...I have a few seconds, tell me everything you know about him....i'll wait...Who is John Hankish? How about Tommy Uvanni?
Listen to people who get their "inside information" from Google instead of someone who actually knows....you will go far in life son

I too would be interested in knowing what books he is reading on these smaller depleted LCN families, becuse clearly some of the info in them is flawed

The arm , r u saying the Pittsburgh mob still has a structured mob with 3 captains and 18 made guys ?? I'm not saying your wrong I'm interested to know , r the made guys left just the remnants of what is left of the family or r they still making new guys ??

mate, don't pay any mind to this muppet. he takes the piss for sure!

In other words "mate"...you don't know the answers to my questions, which anyone who even mentions the Pitt family should know....so you know nothing...why didnt you just say so?

I can tell you for absolutly certainty this was the case less than 24 months ago...it involved an underboss becomeing the defacto boss, making 2 made guys capos and circling the wagons and taking stock in the personelle they had. The major rackets are shylocking, video poker and juice from non member books

TheArm, Dallas was indeed its own family and was never part of the New Orleans family. Dallas had joint operations with New Orleans, Kansas City, San Jose, and Denver crime families. It has been rumored that the Dallas crime family served as a buffer when the Colorado crime families (there were two of them till they merged into one) and Kansas City who were going at it in 1919/20 during prohibition.

On saying that Pittsburg, Scranton and Rockford are viable, I see no family structure in any of them.

Well that's about to change. Starting in 2014 I'm going to need an envelope from you "ARM" don't think I forgot about you. I'm a very very very busy man, so I'll send my solider Domenic Salerno he's a solider with the Genovese Family. Any other questions/problems/concerns/ call my Capo Joe "Search Function" Schmotuzzi he's the resident tough-guy in the greater Northeast. If you refuse to kick up, then you must have a sit-down with the undisputed de facto boss "SKINNY".

OH and BTW Snakes! Snakes! Snakes ! I don't know NO SNAKES!

FiveFelonies if the arm doesn't start kicking up..you know what to do you have my blessing. Were trying to get Skinny bail right now.

I can tell you for absolutly certainty this was the case less than 24 months ago...it involved an underboss becomeing the defacto boss, making 2 made guys capos and circling the wagons and taking stock in the personelle they had. The major rackets are shylocking, video poker and juice from non member books [/quote]

wouldn't the feds tied in Bobby if he was involved?

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/4687442-74/melocchi-former-gambling#axzz2p0WjZuXh

Arm,

I had two people in my family who were high ranking made members in Pittsburgh. I personally know quite a few of the guys in Pittsburgh, as well as Youngstown and Cleveland. I have been working on a project with two authors regarding Pittsburgh/Youngstown and I am telling you that you are wrong. Mike Genovese (I know his son very well) made 5 guys during his reign...and Mike was the last "recognized" boss of the family. In 1986, he made Chucky Porter and Sonny Ciancutti, in 1987 he made Joey Naples and Lenny Strollo (both from Youngstown) and in 1989 he made Henry "Zebo" Zottola. I have interviewed former Special Agent Roger Greenbank at length as well as SA Bob Garrity, both of them who were head of the OC task force in Pittsburgh for over 25 years. In fact, Roger Greenbank is hands down the most knowledgeable person regarding LCN in Pittsburgh, as he and his team dismantled the family. The family became defunct in 2006 after Mike Genovese passed away. It is an insult to the hard work we have put into this project for you to come on the forum and make up some ludicrous statement that they made new guys when there is no boss. Bobby Iannelli never was made, as he and the Williams Brothers (Sal & Adolfo) took over Tony Grosso's numbers/sports betting operation.

• Robert Iannelli, also known as "Bobby I." Iannelli, an associate of the Pittsburgh Family, acquired, during the mid-1980s, a significant portion of Tony Grosso's numbers empire after Grosso's conviction for federal gambling and tax violations. Iannelli expanded in the greater Pittsburgh gambling market. In outlying counties, operations laid off action to Iannelli. Iannelli's sports and bookmaking enterprise ultimately became the largest in Western Pennsylvania.
His organization included bookmakers in at least six Pennsylvania counties and several other states. Iannelli used Chub's Place, McCandless Township, Allegheny County, a restaurant operated by his family, as a drop-off point for monies owed to the enterprise. The organization was tied through layoff activity to several other major gambling enterprises in Western Pennsylvania, including the Frank Unis, Jr., operation in Beaver
County. On June 18, 1990, Iannelli and a number of bookmakers affiliated with him were indicted by a state grand jury and were charged with operating a multi-million dollar a year sports and numbers bookmaking enterprise. Indicted with Iannelli were two of his chief operatives, Albert Diulus of Pittsburgh and Ralph Romano of Carnegie.

• Adolph "Junior" Williams, Eugene Williams and Salvatore Williams The Williams organization, which dominates
numbers action in the Hill District, in the East End of Pittsburgh, and in the McKees Rocks area, was also heir to part of Tony Grosso's gambling empire. The Williams brothers operated two Pittsburgh businesses, Guglielmo Jewelry Store and Sugar's Deli. Sugar's Deli, 1501 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburgh, has been used by the Williams brothers to collect and sort bets. Additionally, Salvatore Williams has acquired over 40 properties in the Hill District, a large Black section of Pittsburgh. The Williams operation has also been connected to the gambling enterprise operated by Paul "No Legs" Hankish in Wheeling, WV. The Williams organization has a number of Black numbers writers in its organization, including Joseph Stotts, who accepts wagers from several Black numbers writers and collectors in the Hill District and the East End of Pittsburgh. He then forwards the action to the Williams operation. During the late 1980s, Adolph Williams used John Deep, then-operator of the 900 Club, McKees Rocks, and his brother Eugene Williams to expand his numbers operation in McKees Rocks. A competitor for numbers business at that time was Robert Mancini who, on October 24, 1988, was a homicide victim. The homicide remains unsolved. In May 1989, state authorities arrested Adolph and Eugene Williams, along with Kenneth "Leroy" Scotty, and charged them with operating an illegal lottery and bookmaking business. Those charges emanated from a grand jury investigation of gambling activities in the McKees Rocks, Allegheny County area. In March 1990, Eugene Williams entered a no contest plea to three gambling charges and was fined $1,000. Kenneth Scotty was convicted in August 1990, on three lotteries counts. Charges
against Adolph "Junior" Williams were dismissed earlier by a district magistrate who ruled that the state had
provided insufficient evidence.

This statement is ridiculous. Just because there are a few made guys (remnants) who are still alive doesn't mean they have a structured LCN family. Billy D'Elia was the only made guy left in Scranton...there was no family. Rockford? Give me a break and Milwaukee and Tampa surely have been defunct for quite some time. Left over made guys means nothing.

FYI- The Rochester Family, in particular, Stan and Frank Valenti were both made in Pittsburgh under Frank Amato and then John LaRocca. Antonio Ripepi, a high ranking Capo for many years, also the father in law to Stan Valenti and John Bazzano Jr. Ripepi and LaRocca backed the Valenti brothers and they "did" separate from Buffalo after the fallout of Maggadino.

And YES, there was a small crew/family in Des Moines, Iowa run by Louis Fratto, who was under the supervision of the Chicago Outfit. Dallas was run by Joe Civello and was one of the 26 original mafia families.

This is a detailed chart I posted on real deal on the LaRocca Crime Family from 1980-1990:

LaRocca Crime Family

Hierarchy

Boss- John Sebastian LaRocca (took over in 1956 from Frank Amato Sr and died December 1984)
Boss- Michael James Genovese (took over in 1985 and died 10-31- 2006)
Underboss- Gabriel "Kelly" Mannarino (LaRocca's Underboss from 1956, died July 1980)
Underboss- Joseph "Jo Jo" Pecora (imprisoned from 1985 and died March 3, 1987)
Underboss- Charles "Chucky" Porter- 1986-1999 (cooperated secretly from 1992-1999) Released from prison in December 2000, living back in Penn Hills, PA.
Consigliere- Charles "Charlie Murgie" Imburgia (died in 2002) Consigliere since the early 1960's.

Capo Regimes

Capo- Antonio Ripepi- Clairton, PA (father in law to John Bazzano Jr.) died in 2000
Capo- Joseph Sica (grandfather to infamous drug dealing rat Joey Rosa and father in law to former Capo Frank Rosa) died 1991
Capo- Frank Rosa- (son in law to Joe Sica, father of drug dealer/rat Joey Rosa) died on January 28, 1982
Capo- Joseph "Little Joe" Regino- (Controlled illegal gambling in Altoona/Johnstown, PA) died June 18, 1985
Capo- Thomas "Sonny" Ciancutti- Protege of Gabriel Mannarino, Controlled all Illegal gambling in New Kensington, PA. Last made man left, 82 years old
Capo- Pasquale "Patsy" Ferruccio- (Video Poker kingpin, considered the mafia's leading expert) Canton, OH. died March 31, 2006
Capo- Domenico "Big Dom" Mallamo-Ran Youngstown, OH rackets since the 1940's (semi retired by 1982). Died in April 1987. (Was made in NYC and over in Reggio, Calabria Italy)
Capo- Vincenzo "Brier Hill Jimmy" Prato- Ran Youngstown, OH rackets since 1980-81. Died in 1988.
Capo- John Bazzano Jr.- Son of legendary mob boss John Bazzano Sr and son in law to Antonio Ripepi. Died in 2008.
Capo- Frank "Sonny" Amato Jr.- Son of legendary mob boss Frank Amato Sr (who stepped down in 1956 and was longtime Capo for LaRocca and died in 1973) Jr. died in 2003.



Soldiers (Made Men)

John Fontana- Ran illegal gambling in Monroeville, PA. Died on April 1, 1984.
Michael Traficante- Ran illegal gambling around Indiana, PA. Died in 1986.
Samuel "Sammy Fashion" Fashionatta- Ran illegal gambling in Altoona/Johnstown, PA. Died March 11, 1985
Louis Volpe- Infamous brother of the "Volpe Brothers" who ran gambling in East McKeesport/Turtle Creek, PA. Died June 3, 1987
Anthony "Wango" Capizzi- Ran gambling junkets for Pittsburgh family and worked closely with Bufalino Crime Family and Buffalo LCN. Died March 21, 2007
John "Jack" Verilla- Ran illegal gambling with Sammy Fashion in Altoona/Johnstown, PA. Died in prison September 10, 1988
Joseph "Little Joey" Naples- Ran illegal gambling in Youngstown, OH with Lenny Strollo. Naples was Jimmy Prato's protege. Murdered August 19, 1991.
Lenine "Lenny" Strollo- Ran illegal gambling with Joey Naples in Youngstown, OH. Convicted in 1999 and cooperated. Out of prison and living back in the Youngstown area.
Henry "Zebo" Zottola- Acted as liason between Youngstown faction and Pittsburgh. Oversaw Youngstown operations and reported to Genovese/Porter. Died in 1998.
Louis Raucci Sr.- Ran gambling, narcotics and fencing stolen property in Verona, PA. Answered directly to Porter/Genovese. Was said to have sit on the "left" side of Mike Genovese


Pittsburgh Associates:

John V Adams- He ran the Green Door Club, an after hours illegal gambling spot. Reported to John Bazzano Jr and Chucky Porter.
James "Jimmy" Ameris- Sports and numbers bookmaker in New Kensington, PA. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.
Ronald "Farmer" Brown- Owned the BBS Coal Company. Extortion, illegal gambling and enforcer. Reported to Chucky Porter.
Eugene "Geno" Chiarelli- Narcotics, extortion and robbery. Reported to Chucky Porter (was convicted in 1990 as part of the Porter trial)
Anthony Durish- Narcotics, extortion and robbery. Reported to Chucky Porter and Louis Raucci. (was convicted in 1990 as part of the Porter trial)
August "Augie" Ferrone- Major bookmaker, interstate illegal gambling, partners with Primo Mollica. Reported to Chucky Porter and Sonny Ciancutti.
Primo Mollica-Major bookmaker, interstate illegal gambling, partners with Augie Ferrone. Reported to Chucky Porter and Sonny Amato.
Anthony Gesuale- Narcotics, loansharking, extortion, illegal gambling. Reported to Chucky Porter and Sonny Ciancutti.
Eugene "Nick the Blade" Gesuale- Major Narcotics distributor, loansharking and extortion. Reported to Chucky Porter and Louis Raucci.
Daniel "Speedo" Hanna- Illegal gambling, collections of tribute money to Pitt LCN. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti and Michael Genovese.
Steven Hatzimbes- Illegal gambling, worked with Jimmy Ameris and Daniel Hanna. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.
Anthony "Tony" Grosso- Largest numbers operator in the country. $30 million/year, employed over 5000 numbers writers. Imprisoned in 1986. Reported to Genovese.
Robert "Bobby I" Ianelli- Major numbers/sports bookmaker. Took over part of Tony Grosso's numbers operation with the Williams brothers. Reported to Genovese
Salvatore Williams- Major numbers/sports bookmaker. Took over part of Tony Grosso's numbers operation with Bobby Ianelli. Reported to Genovese
Adolfo "Junior" Williams- Major numbers/sports bookmaker. Took over part of Tony Grosso's numbers operation with his brother and Bobby Ianelli. Reported to Genovese
Anthony "Ninny" Lagatutta- Ran back door, high stakes card games as well as sports bookmaking. Reported to John Bazzano Jr.
Samuel "Sammy" Lanzino- Sports bookmaking and fencing stolen property. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.
John "Johnny Boy" Leone- Narcotics trafficking, illegal gambling, loansharking, extortion. Reported to Chucky Porter.
Michael "Mikey" Martorella- Sports and numbers bookmaking. Reported to Chucky Porter and Sonny Amato.
Louis "Louie" Masco- Illegal gambling and principal operator of the Cecil Italian Club. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti and Sonny Amato.
Mauro Matone- Narcotics trafficking and fencing stolen property. Reported to Chucky Porter.
Peter Mercurio Sr.- Sports and numbers bookmaking. Associated with Steve Hatzimbes gambling network. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.
Anthony "Murgie" Imburgia- Nephew of Consigliere Charlie Imburgia. Owner of Verona Auto Sales. Reports to Chucky Porter and Mike Genovese.
Felix "Phil" Pitzerell- Owner of Pitzerell's Restaurant, illegal gambling and fencing stolen property. Reported to Chucky Porter and Louis Raucci.
Ronald Plisco- Plisco was Sonny Amato's key representative in illegal gambling. Reported to Sonny Amato and Chucky Porter.
William "Billy" Porter- Brother of Chucky Porter. Extortion, narcotics trafficking & robbery. Reported to Chucky Porter.
Michael Rosenfeld- Narcotics distribution. Reported to Chucky Porter and Louis Raucci.
Gerald Sabatini- Sports/numbers bookmaking and narcotics trafficking. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.
John Sabatini- Sports/numbers bookmaking and narcotics trafficking. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.
Robert Sabatini- Sports/numbers bookmaking and narcotics trafficking. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.
Joseph Scolieri- Sports.numbers bookmaking. Reported to Chucky Porter and Louis Raucci.
Paul Scolieri- Sports/numbers bookmaking. Reported to Chucky Porter and Louis Raucci. (Part of Bobby Ianelli gambling network).
Meyer Sigal- Owner of Daily Juice Company, employed Joe Sica and Louis Raucci as ghost employees.
Frank Unis Jr- Ran the largest sports bookmaking/numbers operation in Beaver County. Reported to Joey Naples/Paul Hankish/Genovese/Gambino Family.
Rocco Viola Jr.- Chucky Porter's first cousin and real estate developer. Employed Porter as a consultant/ghost employee.
Manuel Xenakis- Sports/numbers bookmaking, part of the Sabatini brothers gambling enterprise. Reported to Sonny Ciancutti.


Youngstown, OH Faction:



Ernest "Ernie B" Biondillo- Chief Lieutenant to Joey Naples. Ran gambling in Campbell, OH. Murdered June 3, 1996. Reported to Joey Naples.
Frank "Ball Bat Frankie" Lentine- Ernie Biondillo's right hand man, ran dice/card games/robbery and sports bookmaking in Campbell, OH. Reported to Joey Naples.
Bernard "Bernie The Jew" Altshuler- Major money maker for Pittsburgh. Ran the All American Club illegal casino in Campbell, OH. Reported to Henry Zottola/Lenny Strollo.
Lawrence "Jeep" Garono- Lenny Strollo's chief lieutenant, collected gambling proceeds from local bookmakers. Reported to Lenny Strollo/Henry Zottola.
Dante "Danny" Strollo- Bagman for brother Lenny, liason between payoffs to corrupt public officials. Ran gambling at All American Club in Campbell, OH.
Michael "Cyrak" Serrecchio- Largest numbers/sports bookmaker/fencing stolen property in Youngstown. Operated Mr. A's Eatery. Reported to Naples/Strollo.
Joseph "Joey Cyrak" Serrecchio- Son of Mike "Cyrak" Serrecchio. Ran numbers for his dad/fencing of stolen property.
Joseph Perfette- Ran illegal gambling in Trumbull County/Warren, OH. 25% kicked up to Cleveland until 1983, then reported directly to Charlie Imburgia (Consigliere).
Jack DeSarro- Largest numbers/sports bookmaker in East Liverpool, OH (about 30 miles south of Youngstown). Reported to Naples/Strollo/Henry Zottola.
Robert "Bobby" Poghen- Debt collector/enforcer/hitman/illegal gambling. Reported to Naples/Strollo.
Paul "Pinto" Holavatick- Joey Naples' driver/enforcer/hitman/debt collector.
Raymond Hertz- Lenny Strollo's stepson. Owner of Stagecoach Inn Bar. Illegal gambling/numbers. Reported to Lenny Strollo.
Samuel "Sam" Vona Sr./Jr.- Both father and son ran extensive numbers/sports bookmaking in Struthers, OH. Reported to Naples/Strollo.
Thomas "Tommy" Peters- Owned Patsy's Lounge, numbers/sports bookmaking. Reported to Naples/Strollo.
Gary Goodrick- Enforcer/numbers/sports bookmaking/barbut dealer. Reported to Naples/Strollo.
Jack Malys- Ran illegal gambling/barbut/craps/numbers at the Greek Coffee House in Campbell, OH. Reported to Naples/Strollo.
Peter Cascarelli- Worked for Naples at Youngstown United Music (Vending Company), robbery/fencing stolen property. Reported to Naples.
Amil Dinsio- One of the biggest bank robbers in American History (1972 Laguna Niguel, CA heist). Robbery/burglary. Reported to Naples/Strollo.
James Dinsio- One of the biggest bank robbers in American History (1972 Laguna Niguel, CA heist). Robbery/burglary. Reported to Naples/Strollo.



Altoona, PA Faction:

Alfred Corbo- Sports/numbers bookmaking. Reported to John Verilla/Joe Regino
Joseph Ruggierio- Sports/numbers bookmaking. Reported to John Verilla/Joe Regino
Victor Schiappa- Sports/numbers bookmaking. Reported to John Verilla/Joe Regino
Carl Venturato- Sports/numbers bookmaking- Reported to John Verilla/Joe Regino
John Caramadre- John Verilla's chief lieutenant. Sports/numbers bookmaking/murder for hire. Reported to John Verilla/Joe Regino.
Vincent Caraciollo- Enforcer for John "Jack" Verilla. Testified against Verilla and Caramadre for murder of John Clark, narcotics trafficker. Reported to John Verilla.
Dennis "Denny" Colello- Enforcer/debt collector for John Verilla.


West Virginia Faction

Paul "No Legs" Hankish- Wheeling, WV "Godfather." Paul was Lebanese and was closely associated with Jo Jo Pecora/Chucky Porter. Controlled all illegal gambling/narcotics trafficking in the West Virginia area. Got his legs blown off in the 1960's after a bloody war with Bill Elias, former West Virginia "boss." Closely associated with Joey Naples and Demus Covello of the Gambino Crime Family. Naples was godfather to his son Chris Hankish and Demus Covello was godfather to his daughter. One of the biggest moneymakers for LaRocca/Genovese. Convicted in 1990 and sentenced to life imprisonment. Reported to LaRocca/Genovese/Porter/Pecora
Chris Hankish-Ran gambling/video poker/narcotics for his father in Scott Twp., PA.
James "Jimmy" Griffin- Paul Hankish's "right hand" man and partner in gambling/narcotics organization.
Charles "Buddy" Jacovetty-Paul Hankish's "left hand" man and partner in gambling/narcotics organization.
Charles "Chucky" Joseph- Owned and operated the Lightning Rod Club in Wheeling, WV, an after hours illegal gambling style casino.
Theodore "Teddy" Tsoras- Ran illegal gambling/narcotics distribution

Is there still illegal gambling in Pittsburgh? YES. Is Sonny Ciancutti the boss? NO, there is no family to be boss of. I know for a fact that Sonny spends most of his time at the Meadows Racetrack. A few of his associates still kick up to him, but Pittsburgh does not have a functioning mafia family. If you tell me that Mauro Matone or Bobby Iannelli are made, I'm going to throw up.

If your claim is that Pittsburgh is still recognized as a mafia family with a hierarchy and a structured family, please name the top 3 positions, Capos, soldiers etc. I don't know you, but it is insulting for you to compromise solid, factual research that myself and a team of organized crime authors have done for over a decade.

Name them...Your answer is ridiculous. Bobby I has been an independent operator his whole life, just like Tony Grosso. Iannelli is in his 80's and the ONLY made guys still alive are Sonny Ciancutti, Chucky Porter (informant) and Lenny Strollo (informant).

I never said I was the self anointed authority, but I guarantee I know more about Pittsburgh/Youngstown than any other member on this forum, as I am in constant contact with the FBI, former members as well as many former associates. I say former because the family does not exist any longer.

I think the recent porky indictment hammers it home.

just a quick pitt question did any former pitt guys have any pieces of the firehouse gambling?

Books? I have conducted interviews with the Feds, former mafia members, about 200 FBI files, the Pennsylvania Crime Commission reports from 1980-1992, the Allegheny County District Attorney, the U.S. Attorney's office for Pittsburgh the sons of Pittsburgh mob figures etc.

Alleged Boss????? Sonny is not the boss, because there is no family. He's the last made guy who was active under Mike Genovese, does that mean he is the boss?

The only book I have used for insight was a book called: Lonely Fighter: One Man's Battle Against the Government of the United States. The Story of Andrew J. Susce, former IRS agent who was chasing John LaRocca for decades. It is the only book regarding Pittsburgh mob figures, and it was specific to LaRocca in the 1940's-1960's.

What are his credentials? Have you seen them? If he is an expert on Philly, then he should stick to sharing knowledge about Philly, not misinformation about Scranton/Pittsburgh.

John Hankish? I think you meant Paul "No Legs" Hankish, who was Lebanese and the head of all organized crime operations in Wheeling, WV for the LaRocca Family. Paul died in prison in the 1990's, and he was one of the largest bookmakers int he country with close ties to Joey Naples in Youngstown as well as Joseph "Demus" Covello of the Gambino Family.

Here is a report I compiled through several sources for the Pittsburgh Family starting in 1989:

A New Hierarchy Begins to Emerge

During the past few years there has been a
noticeable shift in the power structure of the
LaRocca/Genovese Family. Rosa's and Droznek's
• testimonies confirmed that Porter and his closest
associates, Louis Raucci, 58, and Henry "Zebo"
Zottola, 53, are major income producers, and that
Porter has "the ear" of the Family boss, Michael
Genovese, 69. According to Robert "Bobby I"
Iannelli, 58, 315 Thompson Run Road; August
• "Augie" Ferrone, 62, 1079 North Avenue; Adolph
"Junior" Williams, 55, 274 Foxcroft Drive, all of
Pittsburgh; and Paul "No Legs" Hankish, 57, 92
Brentwood Avenue, Wheeling, WV; turn in betting
action to Porter. Rosa and Droznek claimed that
Raucci and Zottola are both active in narcotics
• trafficking and loansharking.
On the surface, Porter's involvement with narcotics
appears inconsistent with Genovese's philosophical
opposition to drugs, but Porter is credited with saying
that he views narcotics as a means to quick capital,
• and not a major source of revenue. He prefers to let
associates rather than members absorb the risk, as can
be seen by the Rosa trial. Although 27 individuals
were eventually convicted of narcotics trafficking or
associated offenses, none were considered LCN
members. •
•
•
•
•
•
The following are members of the LaRocca/
Genovese LCN Family:
• Michael Genovese, 69, 4348 Clendenning Road,
Gibsonia, PA;
• Frank "Sonny" Amato, Jr., 61, 704 Broadway
Street, East McKeesport, PA;
II John Bazzano, Jr., 61, 107 LynnbrookDrive,
McMurray, PA;
• Anthony A. "Wango" Capizzi, 63, 4451 Middle
Road, Allison Park, PA;
• Thomas A. "Sonny" Ciancutti, 59, 1906 Kenneth
Avenue, New Kensington, PA;
• Pasquale Macri "Pat" Ferruccio, 71, owner of
Liberty Vending, 401 High Street, NW, Canton,
OH;
• Charles J. "Chucky" Porter, 55, 3999 Old
William Penn Highway, Penn Hills, PA;
• Louis Raucci, 58, 133 Hulton Road, Verona, PA;
• Antonio "Anthony" Ripepi, 86, 4720 Brownsville
Road, Pittsburgh;
• Joseph Sica, Sr., 80, 1148 Jefferson Heights, Penn
Hills;
• Henry Zottola, 53, 9242 Wedgewood Drive,
Pittsburgh.
The control exercised by this LCN Family can be
seen in the Erie, PA, gambling market. Iannelli, a
close associate of LCN Family member Anthony
"Wango" Capizzi, 63, collected Erie layoff gambiing
23
money from Alfred DelSandro until DelSandro's
death in July 1988. At DelSandro's funeral, however,
Iannelli purposely avoided contact with DelSandro's
successor, John "Jack" Miller, 59, 5449 Pepperwood
Circle, Erie. Miller had in excess of 35 numbers
writers grossing $125,000 weekly in sports and
numbers "action" at that time and, until late 1988,
was considered the largest bookmaker in Erie. Since
then, Miller's organization has declined and is now
ranked third. In March 1989, Miller was indicted by
the IRS on charges stemming from gambling-related
activities.
During the past three months, a new hierarchy has
emerged within the Erie gambling community led by
William J. Anderson, 60, 1809 Treetop Drive, and his
partner, Leonard Alecci, 55, 9 West 4th Street, Apt. 1.
The second largest operation is the province of Phillip
S. Torrelli, 56, 2908 Broadlawn Drive, and Raymond
Ferritto, 59, 724 Brown Avenue, both of Erie. Torrelli
and Ferritto inherited Frank "Bolo" Dovishaw's sports
and numbers action in 1983 after Dovishaw was
murdered.
Anderson and Alecci layoff their betting action to
LaRocca/Genovese LCN Family associates, while
Torrelli and Ferritto layoff to another LCN associate,
Manuel "Mike the Greek" Xenakis, 41,100
Hayeswold Drive, Coraopolis, PA. Xenakis and
Ferritto were arrested together in June 1987 on
gambling charges; that case is still pending. Xenakis,
in turn, lays off to Ciancutti associate John Sabatini,
48, 1693 Seaton Avenue, Coraopolis.
The LaRocca/Genovese LCN Family has invested
in video poker vending, while remaining firmly
entrenched in traditional criminal activities including
gambling, loansharking, extortion, and narcotics. On
January 19,1989, LCN Family member Pasquale
Ferruccio, 71, owner of the Liberty Vending
Company in Canton, OH, was indicted by the
Cleveland Federal Organized Crime Strike Force on
racketeering charges resulting from the illegal use of
video poker machines as a gambling device in Ohio
and Pennsylvania.
Over the past few years, law enforcement agencies
have reported that the LaRocca/Genovese Family is
experiencing a decline in influence. These
observations are based upon an apparent lack of new
"blood," coupled with an aging leadership. Sica and
Ripepi are both in their 80s, and Ferruccio is 71; only
Ripepi remains an active member and Ferruccio's
future is clouded by his recent indictment. Still, the
average age of the LaHocca/Genovese LCN Family
members, currently figured at 65 years, drops to only
60 years when those three individuals are excluded
from the equation.
Age alone will not precipitate the decline of the
LaRocca/Genovese LCN Family; rather, the limited membership will be hard-pressed to withstand a series
of prosecutorial efforts aimed at the Family's
hierarchy. Several convictions would have enormous
impact, perhaps comparable to that encountered by
Cleveland's Licavoli LCN Family, which was
devastated by prosecutions brought by an FBI
Organized Crime Task Force. Notwithstanding
similar circumstances, the LaRocca/Genovese Family
appears capable of enduring.

No, I met JOHN Hankinsh, a Pittsburgh bookie and shylock and long time associate. You claim to be an expert on Pittsburgh and you didnt know that? That along with claiming Bobby is NOT the defacto boss, and even that he is NOT MADE?
Are you freaking kidding me? That's actually funny
Dude, you need to get better info...You are sadly misinformed

Tony Grosso: Numbers Kingpin
Pennsylvania's undisputed illegal
lottery kingpin, Anthony "Tony"
Grosso, 76, dominated Pittsburgh's
numbers-betting community for more
than 40 years and built a large illicit
gambling organization which grossed
more than $30 million annually. In
October 1986, he pled guilty to 68
counts of a federal grand jury presentment.
The charges alleged that
Grosso, of Mt. Lebanon, operated a
numbers organization with several
thousand writers scattered throughout
the Western Pennsylvania region.
Grosso was sentenced by a federal
judge in January 1987 to 14 years in
prison and later to 10 to 20 years in
prison by an Allegheny County Court
judge. During one hearing, Grosso
testified that he had not filed a tax
return since 1973. Grosso agreed to
testify against a State Police corporal
who had been charged by a state
grand jury with receiving more than
$100,000 over several years in bribes
and other illegal gratuities from
Grosso. The corporal, who committed
suicide shortly before he was
scheduled to stand trial, was in
charge of a State Police vice detail
operating in Southwestern Pennsylvania.
Grosso has been arrested over 20
times between 1938 and the present.
Relatively few of those arrests have
resulted in incarceration. Prior to the
70
1980s, he served short jail terms for
gambling-related convictions in 1943,
1950, 1964, and in the mid-1970s.
Grosso, who never used a bank
account, testified that he did not
know how many individuals were in
his gambling operation because he
had established it in a pyramid fashion
with himself at the top. He said he
did not know the identity of "runners
and writers" near the bottom of the
pyramid, nor did they necessarily
know his identity. He said that his
operation had many telephone girls
who each made about $ 500 per week
and that each phone girl would have
10 to 20 writers "working the street."
Grosso paid his writers on a percentage
basis. Should a writer offer
500-to-one odds to a customer, the
writer would get 40 percent. A 600-
to-one odds bet would provide the
writer with 30 percent. On the average,
a writer who turned in about
$1,000 per week in business would
earn about $300 per week, tax free.
Grosso said his organization would
gross at least $400,000 weekly. His
annual income, estimated by the IRS,
was $1.5 million to $2.1 million.
Grosso apparently operated without
paying "direct" tribute to the Pittsburgh
LCN, primarily because of his
political contacts. Because of his
favorable affiliation with local political
and police officials, however, Grosso
was expected to do "favors" for the
LaRocca/Genovese Family-such as
providing information on an ongoing
investigation or an upcoming raid.
Grosso's incarceration, in turn, has
contributed to the F-~mily' s dominance
of illegal gambling in the Greater
Pittsburgh area. Today, the bulk of
Grosso's numbers business has been
taken over by Robert "Bobby I"
Iannelli; and two brothers, Adolph
"Junior" Williams and Salvatore "Sal"
Williams, all of Pittsburgh. Iannelli
and the Williams brothers are associates
of the LaRocca/Genovese LCN
Family.

Your getting even colder....where the HELL did you get that mish mash of rumor and media BS?
Like I said, if you want to anoint yourself an expert, get some reliable sources

I'm not going to argue with you, because you are obviously saying that I don't know shit. My uncle ran the rackets in Youngstown for decades for the Pittsburgh Family and then his nephew, my cousin, took them over. I have been around the block and know quite a few of these guys on a personal level. Bobby I was never made...PERIOD. He wanted to be independent, like Tony Grosso. John Hankish was "not" a significant player in LCN operations. The largest bookmaker in Western PA was Tony Grosso, once he died, Iannelli and Sal & Adolfo Williams took over and Primo Mollica from Glassport was as big a bookmaker as anybody.

You are saying that you know more than I do about Pittsburgh, is that your contention?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Since you are the "expert" why don't you name the administration in Pittsburgh, the Capos and the soldiers? I'm sorry to tell you that SA Roger Greenbank is hands down the expert on Pittsburgh and I am in regular contact with him.

You come on to my thread and start shit? What's your fucking problem? You are sadly MISINFORMED

Here's your opportunity to name the family. Educate us please because you are so smart. You're a wise guy as well, right? You're a made man?

Roger Greenbank, Bob Garrity, John Stoll, Bob Hawk...all SA for the FBI, the U.S. Attorney, the Pennsylvania Crime Commission, several former members of the family, Allegheny County DA...None of them are reliable, eh?

I mean no disrespect, clearly this is something you are interested in, but when you made the statement Bobby I was not even made....you lost all credibility as far as any inside knowledge.
As for me naming names, I have a policy on the internet, media and even conversation, if someone hasn't been outed to public scrutiny via the media or law enforcement, I don't mention their names. I have given you plenty of info here, if you doubt me, refute it, or just believe what you like, to me the issue is small potatoes

Arm,

I'm done discussing your ludicrous claims, you have derailed the thread. Congratulations!!

Still waiting for your educated answer on the family. Are you going to name the boss, underboss, consigliere and 18 made members? LMAO.

...and no..I was never made

I figured I'd get an answer like that. Bobby never wanted to be made, he didn't need to be as he was politically tied to a lot of powerful people. Just like Grosso, he didn't want a target on his back with the connotation of made member.

No disrespect, you completely disrespected me. Personally, I don't give a fuck. And when you can't answer my question or you give some bullshit code of honor crap about outing somebody or naming names, that clearly demonstrated that you are talking out of your ass. If your expertise is Philly, stick to Philly.

And by the way, D'Elia was the boss of nothing. D'Elia worked closely with Joey Naples and Lenny Strollo in Youngstown on some waste hauling schemes and was an errand boy after Bufalino died for some of the NY families as well as Philly. Scranton has been finished since Bufalino died in 1994. D'Elia was respected, I'll give you that, due to his allegiance and close relationship with Russell. Other than that, he was a made guys in a small town who got respect from local bookies and criminals, nothing more.

Here is the 1990 PA Crime Commission Report on OC. It clearly stated back then that Bobby I was an associate and an independent operator. If the government successfully dismantled the Pittsburgh Family, they would have easily nailed Bobby I to a cross. Hell, if Chucky Porter didn't perjur himself over 100 times at his trial, Mike Genovese would have spent the rest of his life behind bars, but the government couldn't use Porter's info because he perjured himself so many times during his trial that the U.S. attorney rendered him useless as a witness.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=133208

Click on PDF and the report will open.

IT seems Porter and Genovse were close .Anyway he did it on purpose to save genovese?

No, I think that Porter took the stand in his own defense. He didn't start cooperating until 2 years into his sentence. He never testified against anybody, but he certainly gave the Feds the key to the entire Youngstown operation as well as the infiltration of the Rincon Indian Casino by Strollo, Zebo etc. He also gave the Feds info about pending mob hits that he learned about from other mob inmates and was credited with saving several lives. NOBODY would have thought that Porter would have cooperated, he was a stand up guy for so long and he ate, breathed and slept LCN.

Anyway...

To answer this thread:

1. Bufalino
2. Trafficante
3. New Orleans
4. Milwaukee
5. Pittsburgh
6. K.C.
7. L.A.
8. The rest

Cleveland? They were one of the most powerful families in the country for decades under John Scalish. They were a major part of the Vegas Skim, they had their own people running Vegas (Moe Dalitz) and they owned Bill Presser, one of the most powerful members of the Teamsters Union for decades. It's interesting to see how you ranked your top 3. Obviously, you ranked them based on popularity of the bosses, with Bufalino, Traficante and Marcello the most recognizable...but that doesn't mean their families were more powerful because the bosses were more high profile.

Why do you say Bufalino, Tampa and New Orleans. What do you base this on?

Basically it was just a slapdash list that I threw together kind of sarcastically to get the thread back on course lol.

Seriously though, I think the Bufalinos should be at the top. I said earlier that Trafficante and Marcello were powerful individuals but their families were not as strong as those of say, KC, Cleveland, or Milwaukee, who all had Chicago backing them, so your guess is as good as mine in ordering them. You would know better than me where Pittsburgh goes.

Its usually the case, I can only imagine the reaction with BIg Ange flipped since he was one of the first bosses to flip if not they first

Big Ange was another guy who nobody would have ever guessed flipped. He definitely destroyed his legacy

I don't want to get into a pis*ing match with any other members,but for my money JCB1977 is the gold standard when it comes to Pittsburgh Mob Stuff.

I am in my late fifties,born and raised in Allegheny County,and
related to several people who were involved in criminal activity from the early seventies up to the late eighties.
My uncle was a mid level numbers operator and my dad worked for him.

Several of my cousins as well as myself worked at after hours clubs which featured casino style gambling.

We were not "Mob guys",just everyday hustlers,who worked straight jobs,and did what we could on the side for a few bucks,and frankly,for the fun of "getting over".If you're from Pittsburgh,you would recognize my Family name,but that's because we also have a lot of successful legitimate business people,not for any criminal activity.

The two names I heard the most in connection with the numbers were Grosso and Ianelli. It was common knowledge on the street that neither one was "made",but were not to be screwed with nonetheless. Of course,having that reputation didn't exactly hurt them when negotiating,so it cut both ways.

Around here,any Italian with a hustle was "in the Mafia" according to the average citizen.

So to JCB1977,keep up the good work. You are an impeccable source and I always look forward to your "Burgh stuff".If some of the other posters actually lived here,they would realize how spot on you have been.

Thanks for your great work!

The Arm: what do kids call it these days?

Oh yeah, OWNED.

Arm knows he's full of crap. He's just enjoying the attention while it lasts.

That makes sense...Bufalino's were very strong post Appalachian.

Thanks Lou_Para.

JCB 1977
What was the arraingment as far as between mike Genovese and youngstown what kind money was strollo turning over from 1992 to 1997

Go0 back to Wikipedia son, I have been in and around the life for almost 40 years and have seen and forgotten more then you'll ever know...grow up

"I don't want to get into a pis*ing match with any other members,but for my money JCB1977 is the gold standard when it comes to Pittsburgh Mob Stuff"

Ummmm...anyone who claims Bobby I is an "independent" and not a made guy is not the "gold standard" for anything
That might just be in the top 10 most ridiculous claims I have ever heard onn this or ANY topic.

Arm,

I challenge you to show the board one document that says Bobby Iannelli is made. You won't find one. He is and always was independent of LCN. The information I have provided comes from the FBI, Pennsylvania Crime Commission and extensive interviews with FBI agents and former mobsters. Until you come up with a federal document, just stay off the thread.

If you are depending on "federal documents" that explains a LOT. They are not only unreliablee, but sometimes even funny. Some great examples were that they for years had Joe Falcone (Buffalo Capo and one time acting underboss) listed as a"Buffalino family soldier", another one wwas when they claimed the "Core of three of the five NY families was desimated and there were now only 2 operating family in NY" They also had me as a made guy, I was flattered but I was in fact never made.
The fact the Bobby is the ACTUAL underboss and the defacto boss of the family is widely known by anyone who knows tit from twat about the streets, and even articals and reports from casual observers all over the internet and the media confim this....this is basic common knowledge. Trying to get factual info from agents, cops and rats is NEVER a good idea

When Mike Genovese took over in January of 1985, he walked in to a well oiled machine as far as revenue is concerned. Pittsburgh had assumed total control of Youngstown and Warren, OH by that time after the fallout of Cleveland. By 1988, Jimmy Prato had died and Joey Naples and Lenny Strollo were co-boss of the area. Both had their own factions, but they split everything down the middle. In Youngstown, there was an illegal casino called the All American Club that the FBI considered the "largest illegal casino" in the country which grossed $20 million per year. The casino alone paid $250k per month to Mike Genovese who split the proceeds between his top 5 guys. Henry "Zebo" Zottola was the conduit between Youngstown and Pittsburgh and he came in every week to meet Bernie "The Jew" Altshuler who gave him the envelopes. This exchange usually took place at the Captain's Table restaurant inside the Ramada Inn Hotel, in which Strollo was the silent owner. On top of the illegal casino money, the monthly cut to Pittsburgh was anywhere between $20-$25k per month. By August of 1991, Joey Naples was gunned down at the construction site of the mansion he was building in Beaver Township, OH and Strollo assumed total control of the Youngstown Rackets. Keep in mind that Strollo was in prison from 1987-1990 and then on federal monitoring from the All American Club casino bust. On top of that, Joey Naples and Lenny Strollo also took a piece of all the drug money that was run in the African American community. By the mid 1980's, crack cocaine was the dominant street drug in the ghetto's and they put Bernie Altshuler in charge of overseeing all the top drug dealers and they took a cut of the proceeds as well. No exact figure was ever given, but the FBI estimated that is was anywhere from $10k-20k per month that went to Naples/Strollo.

One of the biggest moneymakers was bingo games at the local churches. The Youngstown/Pittsburgh faction had a skim in place for over 40 years all credited to one of the top guys in the family, Charles "Charlie Murgie" Imburgia, who was the longtime consigliere in Pittsburgh. Charlie lived in Warren, OH and owned the Sunrise Inn Pizza parlor/restaurant. Charlie's son in law was Frank Nannicola, who owned the largest distributorship of bingo supplies in the nation called, Nannicola Wholesale. Through Charlie's connections, churches and social halls ordered all their supplies from him and Charlie set up the skimming operation in Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Western New York and Florida. Their biggest place that they infiltrated was the Pacar Center in New Castle, PA and this game grossed $3.1 million per year. Any church or social hall that had bingo games were skimmed in the tri state area and in Florida. This provided over $10 million per year of cash for the family. Check out a few of these articles:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=XIJcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=41YNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1737,2532222&dq=joey+naples+murder&hl=en (Joey Naples Murder)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19870406&id=C7UqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NWMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3986,4378429 (All AMerican Club Bust)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19920201&id=YrUcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CGQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1129,15357 (Bingo Skimming Operation)

http://old.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010527ytngraphictextnat9.asp (The Strollo Enterprise-Corrupt officials he had in his pocket)

Point being?

This is getting to good

While I agree that one cannot get "all" information from the Feds, through extensive interviews for our project, two high ranking members stated that Bobby Iannelli was never made, as he had the same arrangement with Mike Genovese that Tony Grosso had with John LaRocca. LCN let these guys operate without paying a lot of tribute as long as Tony G and Bobby I agreed to share all the cops/politicians/judges as well as get a heads up with any raids that were coming from the locals. In 50 years of investigations, Bobby I was NEVER named as a made member. With the success that the Feds had against Pittsburgh since the mid 1980's and with all the information that Chucky Porter gave to the FBI from prison for over 8 years, there is no question without a doubt that Bobby I would have been mentioned as a member of LCN.

Arm,

For the record, I am not minimizing Bobby Iannelli's influence. According to Dick Thornburgh in his book called "Where the evidence leads" and according to Special Agents Roger Greenbank and Bob Garrity, all evidence points to my statement. Chucky Porter gave the Feds "everything" to take down the Pittsburgh mob. He gave them the entire Youngstown operation, the infiltration of the Rincon Indian Casino, a list of all known members of the LaRocca Family as well as independent gambling operatives. When Roger Greenbank asked Chucky Porter about Bobby I, Chucky stated that Bobby had the same arrangement as Tony Grosso. This statement came from the Underboss of the LaRocca Crime Family. If he gave up everything else, why wouldn't he tell the Feds that Bobby I was made? Doesn't make any sense. He gave up Henry Zottola, Lenny Strollo, Pat Feruccio, John Bazzano Jr., Sonny Ciancutti (who was subsequently indicted on major gambling charges back in 2000 because of Porter's information pipeline), Sonny Amato, Frank Unis Jr. as well as information on mob hits that were ordered. The FBI stated that Porter's information was like money in the bank at his hearing and the judge allowed him to walk out of prison because of his truthfulness with Greenbank and Garrity.

I am going to mercifully not post the 1500 or so links I could produce proving my statement correct...you are as capable of doing a Google search as I and seeing the same information. But that makes no difference. I know personally first hand up close and personal with contact as recently as 2 years ago that Booby has been made since the 80s, is the underboss by title and boss by actions.
Belive what you like, just know that you are relying on sources that are notoriously inaccurate, and your statements cut against the grain of VOLUMES of conflisting information.
IJS.
We shall agree to disagree

We shall agree to disagree. And I have first hand information as well from my uncle who was a high ranking made guy, Chucky Porter and Lenny Strollo. Mike Genovese made 5 guys during his reign: Chucky Porter, Sonny Ciancutti, Lenny Strollo, Joey Naples and Henry Zottola. When Mike Genovese died, John Bazzano Jr. oversaw most of the gambling but by then, there were hardly any "members" left alive.

So you being from Rockford go to Pittsburgh. And they just start telling you how there making guys and Bobby is running the show?

You're using the same tired methods, not to mention the same tired phrases, that many forum frauds in the past have used. You're not even original with your BS.

Son, you are embarassing yourself, I am even becomeing embarassed for you. Save yourself the humiliation and do what you do best, cut and paste newspaper stories and parrot internet myth...or better yet, listen to people like me who know something and you just might become educated...could happen

I am not from Rockford, I am from New York but I have known guys from there for 30 years, and I now live 45 minuites from there. I am not from Pittsburgh but I have know guys from there since the 80s.
This is the differnce between someone like myself and people who get their "inside info" from news reports and FBI internet files. When you form 30 year old relationships you become privy to things.
As for Bobby running the show, this doesnt even qualify as "inside info" anymore. It has been widely reported and is widely known.

No matter how much I have tried to stay out of the foolishness that continues with the dribble TheArm continues to blabber, try this: If your 30 year relationships with God know who then my 40 year face-time with all the players ,from top to bottom, in Pittsburgh must count for more. Although never a member , my Dad and I were close "family friends". Just consider my handle. That being said: I find JCB to be one of the foremost, if not the top, historians on the Pittsburgh LCN than anyone else.

I have no qualms with you arm, let's just agree to disagree...and for the record, Friend of Henry was not only privy to being around "the highest ranking" members, but he has more knowledge of their personal lives than "any" of us. That's a fact. I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm about the topic, but let's get back to the topic.

JCB Russell was a Sicilian he went all over the place and had a few interests in Philadelphia as well. When the old man got hit back in 80 he was pretty much done with a lot of the "Americanized" gangsters. When tragedy struck too many guys close to him had problems. He had money, he was getting older, he didn't want or need problems. He also distanced himself more then you would think from the other families. Including Pittsburgh and Cleveland. We'll talk sometime via private message. I see you've researched a hell of a lot of information. When you interviewed Agent Greenbank did you joke with him about taking any extra Christmas Cash . Don't answer that I'm sure I'll come across you on these boards sometime later..

Russell was no doubt one of the biggest mafia kingpins in history...one of his best friends was longtime LaRocca Family Underboss Gabriel "Kelly" Mannarino. Mannarino died in July of 1980, but he an Russell had quite a few business interests in Havana, Cuba

Buffalo since Detroit is still active. KC is dead.

I'll take info from law enforcement and OC experts over yet another mob insider on the internet. Since we're online, people can make up anything they want. And many have long before you. Fortunately, most of them eventually get outed as frauds. I think you'll probably be no different.



If one takes away bogus internet charts (which fuel much of the misunderstanding), and just looks at the relative amount of mob cases, there isn't much difference (if any) between Detroit and Buffalo or Kansas City.

using way too much salt!!! maybe that's at least part of the problem. word on the street is that this monstrosity was at least partly responsible for "SULLY" getting pinched. now to be fair, i have no way or intention of proving my theory, so just trust me!

I have no doubt "many before me" told you you were full of it son...Likie I told you, you cut and paste stories about the Carcones, I grew up with the Carcones.
That's the difference.

I'm 5'11 210 pal, clearly you have me confused with someone else. Sully got pinched becuse he put his fate in the hands of wannabes who cracked the second the agents put heat on them.

quit yo yappin 'fo i get to clappin!

Shouldn't you be in WalMart jackibng $12 watches with the rest of the mutts?

The difference is Detroit has an identifiable leadership and enough made members for multiple crews. I'll take the word of the FBI and Michigan State Police. When they say the Detroit mob is dead then I'll believe it

Well said

Maybe someone should ask the Detroit FBI and Michigan State Police why there aren't more cases devoted to the LCN there.

This is, of course, a rhetorical question and probably part of the reason why some OC experts don't consider Detroit to be among the remaining viable families.

I thought you said in an earlier post that you moved to the midwest after "retirement" but kept up your contacts through old friends?

Correct..I live in the Chicago suburbs, about 45 minuites from Rockford and about 30 minutes from Chicago. Born in Brooklyn and raised in Upstate NY.

My guess is the FBI in Michigan are more concerned with terrorism since the Detroit area has the highest concentration of Muslims. The state police are probably more concerned with out of control black gangs and crime in the Detroit metro area. A bunch of bookies and loansharks are very low on their list.
According to Jerry Capeci, there are only 3 FBI agents assigned to the entire Lucchese Family. How many FBI agents do you think are assigned to the traditional organized crime in the Detroit area? That would explain the lack of indictments. If a bomb went off in DC or NYC or a plane blew up, would you like to explain to Congress why your FBI agents were busy chasing after a bunch of geriatric bookies instead of working on national security threats?

Here's a 2011 article on the Detroit Mafia that has been posted here before:

Detroit Mob

I'd say they're on life support, but not extinct. Once the current crop of leaders dies off or decides to retire, it may go the way of the Buffalo Family.

Your one of the most arrogant motherfukers and I don't even know u in life
And your narcissism seeps through into your posts
You preach like a fucking evangelist that " I don't take the word of posters over the FBI"
Who the fuck are you to question the FBI
I mean do u even know what a budget is
My ex Gfs ex husband works at the FBI in the motor department
And she said they have no money the cars They drive are old an they don't have near as much money as the bad guys and they certainly don't have unlimited expenses for chasing middle aged men around who happen to be bookies and sharks
I mean do you know the Detroit is awash in crime
Thousands and thousands of homes are abandoned
You can buy a home there for as little as 5gs
It's like a third world county
You do realize that the FBI has budgets and your black and white theries are just plain dumb
And to be honest with you, it can only be 2 things either you have no concept of how the world works or your just a fucking idiot

Your one of the most arrogant motherfukers and I don't even know u in life
And your narcissism seeps through into your posts
You preach like a fucking evangelist that " I don't take the word of posters over the FBI"
Who the fuck are you to question the FBI
I mean do u even know what a budget is
My ex Gfs ex husband works at the FBI in the motor department
And she said they have no money the cars They drive are old an they don't have near as much money as the bad guys and they certainly don't have unlimited expenses for chasing middle aged men around who happen to be bookies and sharks
I mean do you know the Detroit is awash in crime
Thousands and thousands of homes are abandoned
You can buy a home there for as little as 5gs
It's like a third world county
You do realize that the FBI has budgets and your black and white theries are just plain dumb
And to be honest with you, it can only be 2 things either you have no concept of how the world works or your just a fucking idiot[/quote]

Your assessment of I L is spot on....but anyway
Some of the most absurd, demostrativly incorrect info on the LCN has come from FBI reports. Some examples I love to use is that they had me as made when I was 19 years old, (I wasnt) Joe Falcone li8stred as a Pittston/Scranton Capo (he was a Buffalo capo and one time acting underboss)and that the Bannono family was so decimated by indictments it no longer existed.
The FBI is good at arresting old men for crimes they comiited in 1960 or crimes they may have commited or may commit under RICO, but their intel on the overall LCN sucks

While your point is understood regarding the FBI's intel, how do you attribute the major success they have had in dismantling 16 out of the original 24 mafia families across the country? Over the last 30 years, they have indicted and convicted most mob bosses across the country and dealt blows to some who have never recovered. Must be really bad intel. Lol

Louie earned himself a month's vacation from the boards. He had been warned once before about flaming other members. He chose to ignore that warning.

I think we can leave New Orleans out of that one brother. All they did was convict Marcello and just like that there was no significant OC in Louisiana left. Not like they dismantled a whole network.

I'm no particular fan of the FBI, but they certainly have been winning the war on Italian LCN. At the end of the day, traditional family structure across the country no longer exist in Buffalo, KC, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Milwaukee, San Francisco, San Jose, Northeast PA, Rochester, Dallas, New Orleans and Denver.

Some will make the argument that Buffalo, KC, Cleveland and Pittsburgh etc still exist...the fact of the matter is that there are remnants (or guys who were made) that are still leftover, but that doesn't constitute a family. They may even run gambling and other schemes, but the pyramid structure that LCN was based off is gone in the aforementioned cities. Prime example in Pittsburgh, there was just a large illegal gambling operation that was busted and not one mention of it being controlled by LCN. As far as I'm concerned, Buffalo and KC have been dead for a while and they have "remnants" leftover and Cleveland has been gone since the early 1990's. RICO is too powerful and it is very easy to tie somebody into a RICO conspiracy.

I was at breakfast with Charlie Murgie and a few other "Family Friends" when the head lines in the Pittsburgh paper announced the RICO Act.

Charlie read the article and announced: "We better all get real jobs"! He all always had vision when everyone else was wearing bifocals.

Doesn't surprise me one bit...all the sharp old timers knew the days of getting away with murder and other crimes were coming to a screeching halt!

LOL

You're giving them way too much credit. Most of the smaller families died off due to attrition, not the FBI dismantling them. Others died off due to infighting. Most of the Little Italy's are gone. The modern mob can't recruit anymore. That's why they're dying off.

It's 1980, and your the boss in KC/Tampa/NO/LA/SF/Dallas/Denver etc. A bunch of your guys are getting old and dying. Where do you find new recruits?

The FBI has been on the money in some cases and way off on others.

Hey Mulberry,

While I agree the age and attrition caught up with families like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Northeast PA as well as some others, federal statutes like RICO has dealt a major blow to these families. In Cleveland, James "Jack White" Licavoli was the first mafia boss convicted under the statute. Once he went to prison and Angelo Lonardo cooperated, it decimated the family and they never recovered because they did not properly replenish the ranks. In Pittsburgh, when it became known that underboss Chucky Porter was giving information from prison 2 years into his 28 year sentence for racketeering, it certainly gave the Feds enough info to decimate the entire Youngstown, OH operation as well as convicted a group of Pittsburgh mobsters for bribery of a public official to take control of the Rincon Indian Casino in San Diego. Porter's information also gave up Sonny Ciancutti's illegal gambling operation as well as John "Duffy" Conley's video poker operation. Sure, age and attrition caught up with Pittsburgh as well but the Feds have the RICO tool at their disposal and now that they know how to effectively use, it's not hard to wrap somebody up into a continuing criminal enterprise.

Also, my theory has been that when the first and second waves of Italian immigrants emigrated to the U.S., they brought with them their culture, traditions, beliefs, honor, codes and overall dedication to LCN. We are now in 2014, more than 100 years from that first major wave of Italian immigrants and the American Mafia is now inducting members who are not full blooded Italian, who have never set foot in Italy and who will never have those "old school" traditions that guys like Carlo Gambino, Tommy Lucchese, Russell Bufalino, Anthony Milano, John Scalish, John LaRocca, Vito Genovese, Joe Bonanno and Angelo Bruno as well as many others. Also, the corruption of public officials still happens, but not nearly to the extent that it did even 30 years ago. People aren't afraid to run to the FBI any longer, hence the FBI extracts the information they need to tie somebody into a conspiracy and deal a major blow to a crime family. "Many" of the guys today that are under 55 years old grew up when the mafia was starting to decline. They got into this thing on the tail end of booming times and many of them like Joey Merlino, George Borgesi, Nicky Scarfo Jr., Jackie "The Kid" Giacalone, Frank Calabrese Jr and John Gotti Jr. to name a few were spoiled brats who rode the coat tails of their blue collar fathers who came up in the organization the old fashioned way...they earned their stripes based on their ability to produce solid revenue for the family and their uncanny ability to carry out a hit if needed. A lot of these young guys were handed things because of who their fathers were without having to put in a lot of the serious work of building their reputations.

There are many variables that are debatable but the fact of the matter is that the "many" of the guys today are soft and they realize that they will either spend the rest of their lives in the can or could take their ill gotten gains and move to another place without retribution. At this day in age, it's easier to run to the FBI than it is to do 15 years. One could also make the argument that drug trafficking and the stiff sentences make it much easier to roll over than to do 25-life.

I do not give all the credit to the FBI, but the fact of the matter is that the FBI has more informants (not all of them mobsters), more favorable laws and tools like RICO at their disposal. It has never been argued that if the U.S. government has a target on your back, they have more time and more money to bring you down. If anything, even if the Feds don't get a conviction all the time, they still accomplished ruining a mobster financially. A RICO trial now runs in the ball park of $500k-$1 million dollars...and a lot of the younger guys in today's mafia don't have the foresight to pack a parachute for a rainy day...because if there is one certainty in life is that rainy days happen, and sometimes they are devastating. And even the guys who pack a parachute and have that kind of cash laying around end up having to spend it all on their defense, they lose their homes and in some cases, they lose their families.

My two cents.

What about Tony lib in Cleveland? When peanuts goes down and dies before sentencing. Being a captain when he got out of the can wouldn't he of been the defacto guy on the street?

Many others before you have floated that theory. But even if that excuse holds water, and that's debatable, it only works for so long. The feds have the same changing priorities in the Tri-State area, New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago and yet there have still been ongoing mob cases there. Am I really supposed to believe Detroit is so different?



I'm aware of that article. It was written by Scott Bernstein, author of Motor City Mafia. While Scott has provided some good info on Detroit, he's also posted numerous charts on the forums showing inflated membership. You'll also notice much of that article deals with the past. If he stuck just to more recent history, there wouldn't be much to report. That 2006 bust was the only relatively significant case in recent years and it was basically just a bookmaking bust.

Anyway, as I've said before, while people are justified in still seeing Detroit as one of the remaining families (because of the conflicting info), they're definitely at the bottom and not nearly as big or active as some insist they are.



I can't begin to count the number of times that other internet bullshitters have posted this very thing. "Believe me, not the FBI." Like I said before, you're not even original with your disinformation. And I really don't think you're fooling anyone here. You're just enjoying the attention while it lasts. But I do want to thank you for that signature of your's. Nothing has made me laugh that hard in a while.



Good riddance for the time being.



The FBI has a great track record, especially since the 1980's. They get most things right, and we're all very dependent on their info, but the bullshitters like to focus on the rare time the feds have gotten something wrong. They're BS doesn't stand up to the facts so their only option is to call the feds into question. We've seen it on these forums over and over and over again.

NY, Chicago, Philly, and NE are much more active than Detroit, that's why law enforcement continues to go after them. Are you really comparing law enforcement's focus on the hundreds of NY/NJ mafia members to the 25 or so Detroit mobsters. The FBI's own website states that Italian organized crime is most active in the Northeast, so that just might explain why there is more focus on those areas than in the Midwest.

The entire Lucchese Family has 3 FBI agents assigned to it. How many do you think they assigned to Detroit? I would bet 10:1 that there are no FBI agents assigned to the Detroit mob. You expect us to believe that the FBI has almost no resources to go after the Lucchese Family's hundreds of members and associate's union infiltration, garbage, drug trafficking, murder, extortion, bid rigging and dozens of other criminal activities, yet it has active investigations and agents assigned to the Detroit mob's 25 geriatric members gambling and loansharking?

I think I'll take the word of the FBI, state police, and Detroit mob experts that the family is still active.

I'm certainly not comparing Detroit to any of the NY families. But a more apt comparison would be New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, or Chicago. And there have been far more cases involving those families than Detroit. I, probably more than anybody, take into account what the FBI says. But I also look at all the evidence. And the lack of cases involving Detroit makes me question just how active they really are, as well as makes me lean towards those OC experts who don't really view that family as one of the remaining viable families. There wasn't much in the way of mob cases there even before the downgrade in federal manpower after 9/11 and I'm willing to bet the next 10-15 years won't be any different.

I haven't heard of any law enforcement or mob experts claiming the Detroit family is dead. Did those 25 members all suddenly retire after a life of crime?

According to Scott Burnstein's latest chart, he has 51 active members listed with another 5 to be made...doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me. Detroit is officially according to Burstein bigger than any other family outside NYC. I could post the chart that he created if you would like.

Impossible to compare NYC organized crime task force against tiny little Detroit. It's up to the U.S. Justice Department on where to allocate their resources. And if the U.S. Justice Department has no agents assigned to the Detroit Mafia, then they don't consider it a threat. Plus, the FBI OC squads originated in the 1980's in NYC, nowhere else. All other cities with an LCN family had FBI agents in town, but not assigned "strictly" to the family.

Let's be real here...No terrorist group wants to blow up Detroit? What would that accomplish, the city is a shadow of its former self? A few auto plants left and the steel industry collapsed more than 40 years ago...what commerce if any does a terrorist group threaten in Detroit? NYC, Washington, D.C., Boston, L.A., Dallas, Houston and San Francisco are much more likely targets for a terrorist organization.

The strongest defunct family is the 6 the family aka the rizzuto family after reading the book on them everyone got murder or is dead or jail there gonna have to pull a Merlino and just anoit someguy boss and start making new members if there actually a lcn family or run back to new York and have Vinny TV make a whole new crew.

Lucchese family has 3 fbi agents? are you kidding? where did you get this?

Jerry Capeci

Capeci also had a tip for members of the Lucchese family, now that budget cuts have thinned the ranks of the FBI mob watchers some 60% since 2008: "Memo to Big Frank, Bowat and Stevie Wonder: Relax: That woman you saw the other day who looked out of place probably wasn't an FBI agent. Neither was the guy who eyeballed you near your house. And don't worry about that suspicious-looking car that pulled up alongside you last week -- or fret about using your cell phone, for that matter. The FBI now has only three agents assigned to cover the entire Lucchese crime family."

CNN Mob story

They're not going to blow up Detroit, but the area has a high concentration of Muslims. Terrorists cells will be more likely to hide among their own people and get support from sympathetic members of the community.

That's my point, law enforcement doesn't see a bunch of old bookies as a threat, that's why there is nobody really looking at them. They're not infiltrating unions or corrupting government officials anymore, so what you have left is a victimless crime. Someone wants to bet on sports, someone takes the bets.

State police and the Feds aren't going to "just let them build an empire" as extortion goes hand and hand with debtors...that ties you into RICO. I'm sure they have a few gambling operations, but not 56 members made and growing stronger as the "hype" about Detroit is so misleading. My two cents.

I'm going by FBI reports from the 1996 case. Detroit had an estimated 30 made guys. Since then, I think 3 have died, one flipped, and Zerilli semi-flipped. Assuming no new members have been made, that's 25 members. Enough for 3 crews.

Detroit is fragmented. No traditional crews as we have in ny. They have no Italian neighborhoods and have been totally suburb ridden. However, they still operate with blood family dominating their ranks. No reason to kill each other so no murders or violent crimes therefore no heat. Very under the radar family w no attention grabbing morons.

Yeah but I bet you none of the younger guys ever killed anyone. Isn't the upper admin legit

I still don't buy that. They let them think that. Capeci will need shit to write about in the future you think he really wants to aide these guys. This is the Feds playing a trick on them and some of them are dumb enough to buy it. They probably already developed an informant.